Still trying to detox

[Frank Lee]

Hi Folks,

I’ve been on the board for months now and have not really shared my problems. I would like your help now. I’ll try to be brief, I am attempting to detox. I have read Tom’s excellent posts regarding vicodin and believe those will be helpful. However, I am a polysubstance abuser. Here is my daily regimen:

5-mg. Valium bid for 8 years

Two years ago I had some situational problems (multiple deaths of family and friends) combined with two herniated discs. I am not making excuses for my abuse, but this is the time I began mixing vicodin, ethanol, xanax and codeine in addition to the Valium. I am 49 years old, a runner (I can jog with my discs by stretching and going very slow – it’s about the only healthy thing I do) and in otherwise good health. I had never abused before. The Valium was prescribed due to anxiety, I never increased the dosage.

Now in addition to the Valium I am taking the following daily:
6 dinks (2 ounces vodka and 4 beers)
4 mgs of Xanax
40 mgs of Vicodin
2 Tylenol 3s at bedtime

I went to see a therapist and she told me I had to go into a detox clinic. She said she couldn’t take the responsibility of treating me until I was clean. She said if I tried to detox on my own I could die.  If I go to a clinic or this becomes a part of my medical records, I will lose my job (trust me without getting into specifics). I would also, I assume, be prevented from using my premorbid dose of valium (which would also probably result in losing my job due to anxiety) and I am assuming my doctors would never prescribe the vicodin, which I occasionally need for real back pain. I told her I would detox on my own decreasing vicodin 5 mgs a week and Xanax and ethanol – not all at once. I would stop the ethanol first over a 10-day period, then the xanax over a two-week period and finally the vicodin over a 21/2-month period.

Do I have a chance in hell of succeeding? I am totally responsible for this addiction and want to end it. I anticipate I will be labeled here and elsewhere as in denial because I want to keep the Valium, so be it. I would appreciate any feed back from those of you out there. If I must go into detox I will I guess after I have some bottom out experience. However, I will then have to start looking for a new job with two kids to put through college. I am afraid.

Thanks for listening.

Frank

[GypsyStevi]

Hi Frank,
When you said:
-I am totally responsible for this addiction and want to end it.-
I don't think you understand "addiction." I am not trying to say you are ignorant here.
Unfortunately you have no choice when you are addicted. It is a disease that takes control of you.
Hang in there,
Jackie

[Wizard]

I read your post and could almost be looking in a mirror with some slight variations. Here's the scoop that I'll give based on MY experience. I was told by my neuro-surgeon that I would also have to go to a detox facility after my surgery for the removal of a couple of disks. I said no way no how because of the same reasons you stated. I feel as long as you have the determination, support, and faith it can be done if done safely.  I tried to do it by being honest with my doctor as to the quantities of my, as you say, polysubstance overusage. (hydro,Soma,oxycontin,codein,morphine and Ativan.) All in MEGA doses for many years.  The doc bailed out on me right in the middle of discussing a weaning program after he went to some weekend seminar that freaked him out because the guest speaker was a doc who got busted for helping his patients detox at home. It seems the Goverment wants them to send you to a program and not do it themselves. I said I'm not going so I'll just take care of business myself. Well with the support of this forum and my wife in combonation with the help of GOD. I'm here to tell you that I have been off the"Dragon" for over two months. Now for me I had to do it "cold turkey" that is just my nature. But the point is that it can be done. As far as the Valium goes I wouldn't suggest you cold turkey ANY benzo. I still take Ativan as perscribed and do NOT take more then I'm supposed too under any circumstances. There is light at the end of the tunnle! There is more than one way to do this. Milo is just one example and if you have been reading the posts you have seen others do it with a regement of decreases. We are all different and yet the same in the sense that once we admit to ourselves that the drugs are running our lives instead of making them betterwe need to do something about it. I'm amazed that you are still running with the herniated disks. I was a competitive runner all my life through my 30's till the back and knees blew at 40 years old. Even after the surgery every time I try to run just a little bit I feel it in my back. You may want to switch to swimming or cycling.  The constant pounding of running is rough on you,BUT exercise is a must to help you make your OWN endorphins. I'm sure there will be others jumping on this string to give you excellent advice. I've only shared my experience. I wish you all the luck in the world my friend. God Bless you and I will pray for your recovery. NEVER GIVE UP HOPE for there IS LIGHT for sure.
Power & Magick 2 U,
Peace & Light upon you,
Wizard

[Milo]

Hi Frank,
I just wanted to say that for me, the worst part of stopping meds like Fioricet was the *fear* of what was to come. I was afraid my anxiety would overwhelm me, and I feared for my health, imagining every possibility from seizures to liver damage...I posted like you have & asked for help. Well, I came to the right place! Folks here gave me good advice from their own experience -- made sure I was doing everything safely -- and held my "cyber-hand" during those frightening times. This is not to minimize how awful this whole abuse/withdrawal business has been -- it's been a real eye-opener for me, something I hope & pray never to repeat. My fears just magnified an already rough situation, but the good people here really helped me handle the fear and get through it. I'm over the physical w/d from the Fioricet now, but I know I'm not out of the woods yet. The woods are all around me! So I keep coming here & together we manage to clear a path through the forest...So if you need encouragement or just want to talk, I'm here to help out any way I can. -- Milo

[Milo]

Hi Frank,
I just wanted to say that for me, the worst part of stopping meds like Fioricet was the *fear* of what was to come. I was afraid my anxiety would overwhelm me, and I feared for my health, imagining every possibility from seizures to liver damage...I posted like you have & asked for help. Well, I came to the right place! Folks here gave me good advice from their own experience -- made sure I was doing everything safely -- and held my "cyber-hand" during those frightening times. This is not to minimize how awful this whole abuse/withdrawal business has been -- it's been a real eye-opener for me, something I hope & pray never to repeat. My fears just magnified an already rough situation, but the good people here really helped me handle the fear and get through it. I'm over the physical w/d from the Fioricet now, but I know I'm not out of the woods yet. The woods are all around me! So I keep coming here & together we manage to clear a path through the forest...So if you need encouragement or just want to talk, I'm here to help out any way I can. -- Milo

[Angelica]

.....Don't mean to interrupt here, but I'm going away w/ my mom for the weekend....I think a nervous breakdown is on the horizon..LOL  I need to do this.  Thank you guys...Wiz and Cin for lending your shoulders these last few days...wouldn't have gotten through it w/o you.  Love you all!  Have a nice weekend!
Angelica

[Thomas]

Frank, you're doctor's right. You need rehab. You've go too much going on there to handle on your own.

[susanlea]

Thomas I did something really stupid. I have been doing ok, but the effects this disease has on me is crazy, I become too nosy and compulsive. Today when the mail came, there was a cell phone bill for my ex. This is the first time since he left that any mail has come for him, he had his addressed changed. I don't even know why 4 months later it would come here. But stupid Susan got all caught up again, and I opened it. Looking at the numbers I started to cry. There were over 30 some calls, all hours of the day and night to several people he used to get drugs from. Over and over, I could see the obsession in his calls. I know they weren't just to say hello, since he never would talk to this people unless he wanted pills. I cried and cried. I was so hoping I was wrong, that when the nurse at our Dr.'s office told me he was getting oxy's and perc's again on top of the methadone I was so sure she was wrong. Why does this Dr. keep doing this? I saw so many calls to the Dr.'s office. I'm wondering if he's been cut off? I don't even know if he still has a job, or is still living with his parents. Why am I in so much pain again? I thought I was getting over it. He had me convinced he would be off methadone in a month, down to 5mg's aday, it's now a month, and no ones heard from him. I feel soo sad, what didn't I see? What didn't I know? Was it really so much worse than I know? Am I really that naive and blind? This has turned out to be such a bad day, and I can't stop crying. How did our lives get to this? The worst is there's nothing I can do. He never loved me or my kids, everthing was a lie. He used me so bad. I feel like I've hit my rock bottom. Why would someone use methadone and oxy's? I don't understand, please explain. Thank you my friend, I need all of you today...Love Susan

[Frank Lee]

First, Susan, I don't know your specifics but sounds like a very bad day - also sounds like your ex is an individual no one can control and who is completely under the control of and cares about nothing but drugs. I hope things improve. I don’t think you can do anything but put space between yourself and that guy.

Secondly, thanks to all on this board for giving me advice and encouragement and not being judgmental. That means a lot. I am going to attempt to detox by myself. I believe I am relatively competo to know if I am in trouble during the process. I am interested in Thomas' statement that I need rehab. If time, could you elaborate? I will keep the board posted if anyone is interested.

Wizard, I jog very slowly and not on pavement. I have osteophytes from my cervical spine down to my sacrum along with the two moderately herniated discs. I go to physical therapy once a month and get myofacisal release. Finally I use the book Pain Free by Roger Escoe (enter in Amazon.com search for a description). This book allowed me to jog and play golf again. But I must tell you I stretch an hour total each time I exercise and then spend 20 minutes in hot tub. Of course, with my panoply of substances the pain is usually relieved. The book however, potentially could help many on this board.

Thank you all again,

Frankie Lee

[Wizard]

Thanks for the title of the book! Just know Frankie, that however this goes we are here for you. Any time you need a shoulder to lean on or an ear to vent into one of us, some of us or all of us will be here for you. It's just how it works. Good luck my friend and may God smile down upon you. I'll keep you in my prayers right next to Milo, Thomas, Kerrie, Angelica, Cin, Susanlea, Jennyfla, J.B. the list goes on and on and the bigger it gets the more friends I have  and the more prayers I pray the more get answered. Seems like a good plan to me! :-) Take care and stick around a while!
Power & Magick 2 U,
Power 7 light On us all,
Wiz

[susanlea]

Thank you for your response. I am not an addict, but lived with one for many years, so I can only give you my opinion from my view point. If Thomas agrees you can't do this yourself and need rehab and detox chances are you do. My situation was as follows; My former boyfriend of 6 years would do percocet's and anyother pain killer he could get recreationally since I met him. He never had access to alot of pills, usually what he could get from a Dr. I have taken pain meds for years for several spine problems. He never really knew I took them, but when he found out about 3 years ago life changed. He would steal anything he could from me. He found a friend who has neuropathy(through me) who got 500 pills a month, oxycotin and percocets. He gave my former boyfriend about 100 of them. The NIGHTMARE began. He then found a Dr. who would perscribe him 60 every 2 weeks. On top of the 30 he took from me. When in months it was out of control, he was taking at least 240mg's aday of oxy's(equalent to 60 percocets) plus perc's and dilauded, anything. He was in a constant state of withdrawals. He became so sick, he stayed in bed for 3 months! Flu like symptoms, wanting to die! He got to the point he could not get enough pills to feel close to normal. He went into detox a little over a year ago. The Dr's said he would have been dead in 6 months he was so toxic. He stayed for 5 days, and went through hell. 6 weeks of rehab, sponser and programs, he relapsed. Our lives were horrible. He became mean, abusive, distant and hateful. It started all over again. He got on methadone in Feb., and he was so mean. He left in March after almost 6 years. My children and I were devestated! I am in Al-anon my boys in Al-ateen. He was not their father, but he has been with them since they were 3 and 4. They have not seen or heard from him in 4 months. They feel rejected, abandoned and unloved by a man they considered their father. This disease is devestating to everyone. But my point is, he refused to go to a program, rehab, counselor, he said he could do it on his own. He hasn't been able to do it. He'll lie and say he is, but you saw my post. I've heard he also is using heroin. This will grab you, and not let you go. As Wizard says, he has the dragon chasing him. Frankie, I'm not saying you can't do it, the physical part is not the worst. It's the psyclogical part. That's why a program, and sponser are so important. Before you take anyones advice. Go to an AA or NA meeting. Just listen, no one asks your name, it's all very confidential. There is a place in Canada that's supposed to be good. All I know is my ex was in a major hospital and no one knew it. They can not give out your name, if your registered. His work never knew, no one. So I think you have other options. Good luck, you've taken the first step, you've reached for help. And everyone here will always be there for you. There are no better people in all the world than you will find than here. I will love everyone here for the rest of my life. God Bless......Susan

[Thomas]

Lea,
What a stroke of luck getting his phone bill! Doesn't leave much room for doubt. All hours of the day and night, ugh? Well, we know we're not talking about oral meds, at least. Only injected and snorted drugs can't wait til morning. It hurts to think you know someone and discover how wrong you are. Get rid of his stuff and be glad it's over. I guess I don't have to tell you to send packing any boyfriends who want to take your pain meds for you again. I know you're miserable, yet I'm very happy for you. HE GONE!

Your friend,


Thomas

[Thomas]

in the second half of your e-mail you asked me why someone would do these things like he did and take oxy and methadone? First of all, you're clearly not an addict. With any luck, that state of mind is closed off from you forever. Instead, why not ask how someone could order the Holocaust? Human beings are not benign creatures. God may have invented good, but I'm not one of those who believe in the devil. It took man to bring evil to the world.

[susanlea]

Am I really that dumb? What did you mean by only snorted and injected drugs not waiting until morning? I was under the impression that withdrawals and cravings were the same no matter what drug. You know it does scare me that when I look back, I probably knew very little what he was really doing. Just because he came home every nite I figured I had it under control and knew what and how much he was taking, just the pills. But when I think about it, he would spend alot of time in the bathroom, I mean for along time. He told me he was shaving. He would lock alot of doors when he was mad. I know it's better that I never know what really was going on, I don't know what it would do to me. I just feel so incredibly stupid and like the dumb blond I am. I sometimes wish I lived somewhere else. Every up here knew us. I used to work with him. People are always asking me about him. I've been keeping up a good front. Made light of the fact it didn't work out. Funny thing is, I really think they knew he had some kind of problem before I caught on. Another question. He couldn't (sorry) have intimate contact anymore, just didn't seem interested and when he tried he just couldn't. That went on for about the last year. He didn't want to be close or kiss, nothing. I really felt like it was me, and when he left he said it was me. I am nowhere near ugly, and have many men who have liked me. Can oxy's and other stuff make some one impotent? I believe now Wizard it right, he spends all his time running from the Dragon. Thomas thank you so much for being my friend. On a good note. I went to my High School reunion last week. There was a man there I never knew well in school. You know the type. Tall, handsome and popular. Well he's e-mailed me 6 times this week. And last nite we went out as just friends for a light dinner on the river. I actually had a great time. He's the first man I've been out with since I met my ex 6 years ago, and before that I had been married for 7 years. I'm going out with him next Saturday. He's divorced and on good terms with his exwife. I found myself watching how much he drank. He had 2 beers in 3 hours, I had coke. I asked him what  he thought about what was going on in the news lately up here, sports, community stuff, drug busts. We got into a conversation about the oxy's busts up here every week. He told me the only time he ever took pain meds was when he had his appendix out. Boy did I have a sigh of relief. I'm so paranoid. We'll see what happens. Thank you again Thomas, I really don't mean to sound so obsessive I guess I'm just searching for answers, I still think there might have been more I could have done, I still think apart of it was my fault. I will be ok...Susan

[cindi]

I just got a chance to sit and read your posts....and really comprehend what is actually going on..Frankie,,,,I'm glad that you came..These people here have been giving you great advice...You are not in denial as you feared we would say  in your post....you see your need...so you still need your xanax...lots of people do..there are real medical reasons that people need medication...and susan....you had a DATE !!!!  how nice...good for you...now,,,,,you go and pain them nails, fix your hair,  buy new eyeshadow and blush to match,,,,(the seaside colors are hot this summer) the get the hottest new shade of lipstick you can find....some sexy new perfume..A NEW LITTLE BLACK DRESS..(SHOES TO MATCH)...and GET ON WITH YOUR LIFE)You have been through so much...I told you and Jenny before, this disease...we all fall victim to it....even if you are not an addict. you are on your way to recovering from all of this....move forward....I usually say don't look back ..but in this case I will say...LOOK BACK... at where you were and where you are heading....choose your path...it's up to you my dear....and go on as many dates with this suave dude as you can...good luck to you both and God Bless...love to all   cin

[susanlea]

I love the way you use words. Are you a writer? If not I think you would be fantastic! Thank you Thomas, you are one of my very favorite people here, Love Susan

[Thomas]

Well, lea, yes, I'm a writer. But, no, I'm not the kind of writer I'd like to be. I earn my living writing about computers, which at the moment is boring the living **** out of me. But it does pay well, most of the time, so I go on with it. I'd like to contribute something creative and meaningful to the world through my writing before I die, but the rub is that I get home at night so mentally drained I can't put together a worthwhile sentence, let alone a full-scale work of any value. I've wished to be a writer since I was ten. I suppose there's a kind of irony in the way things turned out. Thanks for the compliment, though. I always enjoy and look forward to your posts, as well.

[Frank Lee]

Thomas,

I continued to be intrigued by your succinct response to my post - "You've go too much going on there to handle on your own."

I asked for an elaboration, but didn't get one. If you are not interested in explaining, that's fine as I respect your opinion. However, if you've the time and inclination I would appreciate knowing why the nix on the detox plan I proposed (you might go back and review it)is too much to handle on my own. Nor did you address my concerns about confidentiality, and ability to use Valium and pain killers appropriately in the future. Obviously you owe me nothing. But I would like to understand your premise.

Thanks,

Frankie LEE

[jennyfla]

I am alive and doing fair everyone.
Just wanted to give you a quick update.
My husband is going to rehab tomorrow, it's been a very difficult past couple days.
He lost his job the other day, and is basically falling to pieces.
The kids are sticking to me like glue lately, probably scared to death about what's happening.  I've tried to be very open and honest to them to ease their fright.
My husband sister offered to help with the cost of rehab.  My insurance will pay half, and she offered to pick up the rest.  She also offered to help with my living expenses while he was in treatment.  Tonight, we found out, i guess they could care less about me.  His mom said i'm a big girl and can take care of myself.  I'm left with three children to support on my secretary's income.  His mother is a very sick women.  It is tearing my husband to shreads, not to mention what she is doing to me.  What a horrible thing to say one thing and back out of it.  his sister is a district attorney and can more than afford to help me a little.  I'm not asking for much, but i can't make it on what i make only.
My husband is angry with them, and also angry with his employer.  the whole world is crashing down on us.
I am thankful he will get into treatment though, thank god!!!
He is going to a place where i think a backstreet boy was just admitted today.  Kind of neat!
I will keep you all posted.  I'm gonna needs lots of support, so you all will probably be sick of me soon.
Hope everyone is well, i will catch up once i have more time.
Prayers for everyone.
Love Jenny

[Milo]

Hi, Jenny -- haven't forgotten about you & am keeping you & your family in my prayers. I can only imagine how terrible all of this you're going through right now is. But hopefully with your husband getting treatment, this horrible time will eventually result in a new start for all of you. I think that's great that you're being open w/the kids because secrecy only breeds more confusion & fear. Bless your heart...Milo

[skipper]

jenny: several things:
1)i can't speak for everyone else, but as far as i'm concerned you  will never be a pest to me. what ever i can say or pray to help  you thru.
2)there is a way thru this-it may not always be what you think it
  should be, but i'm sure you and everyone else in your family will  find their way thru if they really chose to.
3)concentrate on the things (problems) most in front of you. if you  try looking to far one way or another (future, past, right, left  your husband's family, or what ever, your going to find trouble.)  my first sponcer taught me this one.take care of what is most   directly in front of, if you catch yourself looking to far one way
or another your concentrating on problems instead of solutions!
always some one with ears
kip

[Wizard]

Jenny, I agree with kip, you will never be a pest to me either. Collectively there is more support here than I've seen anywhere. You can come and lean all you want. There IS always a way to get to the light in these situations. We always have choices....maybe not the ones that we like or are easy but we DO have them. You hang in there lady. I'll be thinking and praying for you and your family.
Power & Magick 2 U,
Peace & Light on us all,
luv Wiz

[Thomas]

I'm sorry, I missed your request for clarification. First, I'm not a doctor, just an rx drug addict for the last thirty years. You name the class of drug, and I've been addicted to it multiple times. The fact is, you pretty much DID "name it." You're taking two kinds of short acting opiates (Vics and Codeine), the absolute worst and most dangerous benzo to detox from (Xanax - I had three seizures from just running out of that poison), another benzo Valium on top of the Xanax, and you're washing it down nightly with enough "ethanol" to put me on the floor. I'm curious why you call your booze ethanol, are you a chemist or just trying to be precise?

You are addicted to a range of drugs, all with BAD withdrawal symptoms all by themselves. You're proposing to withdraw (you can call it detox, but you will experience withdrawal without a doubt) from narcotics, benzos and alcohol all at once. I shiver at the thought of what you're going to feel like when you start withdrawing.

Frank, I mean no disrespect, but I don't think ANYONE has the will power you'll need to pull off your plan. Besides, you WILL go into withdrawal, despite your plan to gradually withdraw. And when withdrawal from all those drugs hits, you could honestly be in great danger. When I seizured from Xanax withdrawal three times in two months, I was using  less than you are now.

Ever see "Lost Weekend?" Remember the psychoward scene? That's where you're headed if you try to withdraw from all those drugs at once. At best, I'd suggest detoxing from one drug at a time, not starting the next detox til the last one was well and truly done. But even that is a bad idea.

My gut tells me you're headed for hell if you try to do this. Get some help. Register under another name if you must. You need to be medically detoxed. Any doctor in the world will tell you that. I wish you all the best. Keep in touch. Let us know how you are. We care about you.

Thomas

[jennyfla]

Thanks guys, i knew i could count on you!!!!
well, my husband is know at rehab, and yes, it's the same one as A.J. (the backstreet boy).
What an ordeal.  He had to get high just one more time, and put up a fight.  I had to give in in order to get him there.  It was very difficult.
He was falling apart, and it was so hard, but he is safe now.
His face lite up when we parked, he was home again.  He felt a sense of safeness and security.  I was happy to see that look in his eyes.
I am holding together, taking care of the kids, enjoying my peace for a change.  I know he is safe, and he is away from me for a while so i can gain back my strength.  This has been so difficult, he has been nothing like what he really is.  It's like he's been possessed.  He is so filled with anger, and his thought process is so very unhealthy, it scares me and i can't help but wonder how he can change so drastically and ever be better.
I miss him very much, but i also fear the day he returns.  Now that he is gone, although it's only been hours, i am scared to death of the day he returns home.  I can't take it anymore, i just don't have any strength left inside me.  I hope he sees the light and gets well!
Thanks guys, and i will write real soon when i have more energy and time.
Lv Jenny

[Frank Lee]

Tom,

Thanks for your advice. It was blunt and sagacious. It you look at my original post I noted I would never withdraw at all the drugs at once, but substance by substance. I have done it with booze ( I used ethanol because I am in the medical profession and was trying to be precise) and vicodin albiet not at the level I am taking now. I have never done it with Zanax but, think over a period of weeks I can accomplish it. If not I will be shopping for the detox clinics, unfortunately. Just what is it that a clinic has, that I don't. I mean if i have the supply, can taper and can get therapy why not *try* it without the clinic?I will keep you posted and I appreciate the time you took in your response.

Frank

[jennyfla]

Now that my husband is in rehab, i need to get myself straightened out quick!
I'm sorry i haven't been here more to offer support, i've been so very very busy just trying to keep my life going and taking care of my kiddies.
I'm trying to find a grip on something in order to beat this addiction, and i'm having difficulty.  I know i need meetings real bad, but have a hard time because of the kids.
I wish i could have gone to rehab too, i wish i was there getting help, but i'm thankful that my husband is getting the help he needs!
I'm in slight withdrawal right now, just don't feel so good, but trying to function anyway... i want to taper off, and get to nothing soon!
Love to you all, Jenny

[cindi]

I am so happy for your husband....next you.....can you go into treatment when he gets out?  I saw where he was in treatment with AJ...i saw on the news where he entered into treatment..I wonder if these celebrities are treated any different then the regular average jo blow...to be honest with you  they came down hard on me.....I went in with such an attitude...I told them I was no junkie,  I was a professional....a big Denial thing with me....i didn't sit in the corner and shoot myself up..etc...they were hard on me,,,and for good reason   LOL  I was a *****..i was sooooo  sick and soooooo  scared..all my life I had been protected by my mom and dad and BAM  I found myself in a treatment center....they called me a a junkie. a walking pin cushion  etc...i packed my suitcase and walked out the back doors only to be carried back in my a counselor and his groupie  LOL  there was nowhere for me to run  i was in the middle of the woods in booniehills   the closest thing to civilization was a bar about 20 miles down the road   LOL  I finally surrendered...and it was the best thing I could have done...I got a special little medal for most improved attitude..LOL  they were wonderful.....and I was grateful and humbled.....well,,,ok  enough babbleing I'm off today and have got to clean my house  LOL    God bless you my friend and good luck      love to all  cin

[jennyfla]

Thank you for the story girlfriend, i had the whole complete picture thing going, i was enjoying it!  lol!
I am so happy that you finally woke up in rehab, and i know exactly what you mean.
My husband is all full of spit and vinager, and it scares me so much because he has so so so long to go before he anywhere near better.  His whole way of thinking needs some major adjustments, and it scares me half to death to think about the day he returns home.  I love him to pieces, but cannot go on with the life i was in... i'm too tired, i'm finished, i'm done!!!  I don't have any fight left in me, and i just can't handle it anymore.
As for my addiction, i need to get real strong and get started and stick to it!!!!  I doubt he could handle the kids once he comes out, long enough for me to go to meetings, but one thing we did plan to do is get a babysitter (once he gets working again), and go to meetings together.  I promised him i could go, but for me, not him.
Good luck with your housecleaning!
Thank you for the story!  :)
Lv Jenny

[jennyfla]

Now i sit here, alone at work, and i'm missing my husband (YES, I'M A GLUTTEN FOR PUNISHMENT)!
He's doing well, i'm hanging in there...  just feeling very very sad all of a sudden...  guess it's all sinking in!
Man, what would i be feeling if i didn't have the pills to numb alittle bit at least.  I don't even have any money to preoccupy myself temporarily with spending.
Just looking forward to Sunday, when we go to visit hubby!
I can't wait to get a new picture of him in my head so it can erase the picture i have from this past couple weeks, not a pretty picture.
Thanks all, lv Jenny

[Thomas]

I'm glad your plan is to do it one drug at a time. But, Frank, you're in the medical profession - you know at some point you're going to feel worse than you ever imagined a human being could feel. What the detox clinics have that you don't is objective control over what drugs you're taking, how much and how often. They also usually know a few things about easing the misery of withdrawal. I don't use narcotics anymore, thank god and AA, but no matter how many times I withdrew from Vicodin, it was gut-miserable. I eventually developed a few techniques to make it easier, but nothing magical.

The warning I want to give you concerns Xanax. I'm giving you a web site address. It concerns a book that a Canadian doctor wrote about withdrawing from benzos. Naturally, all the details are in a book she's selling, but there is enough info available for free at the site to grasp her basic point, that being:

Short-acting benzos like Xanax and Ativan are eliminated from the body much faster than good old Valium. Her detox technique starts with switching her patient to Valium, let them find a stable dose, and then slowly reduce the dosage. Apparently, the idea is that Valium has a much longer half-life and the process of dosage reduction puts the body through less of a rollercoaster ride than, say, Xanax.

Here's the link, if you're interested. My doctor switched me to Valium and I'm gradually reducing the dosage with no signs of seizure or discomfort. Based on my limited experience, I'd say the Canadian doctor knows of what she speaks. Good luck. Stay in touch with us through all this.

http://dencity.com/ashtonpapers/

[Milo]

Jenny, I thought about you when I heard a talk show where the host mentioned the Backstreet Boy going to rehab. Anyway, he said something good -- that if someone like that who seemed to have it all -- fame, $$, etc. -- could succumb to depression & addiction, we should realize that it can happen to anyone, that no one is immune. I thought that was a good thing for the public to hear, since we've been talking about removing the stigma & shame...I know you're going through hell right now, but I hear in your words that you are stronger than maybe even you realize, & you will make it through this OK. And no, you're never going to be a pest to me either! Best wishes as always, Milo

[jennyfla]

thank you sweet friend...
It's late, but i can't sleep (what's new)
I am very relieved that my husband is safe, and away from me for a while, but i miss him anyway.
I get so very angry at the stigma people put on those who are strong and willing enough to find the help they need to beat their addictions...  I see it more and more, and really think that if they could only walk a day in someone else's shoes who suffers from this diseas, i think they would wake up real fast.
Even those who are addicts, who don't even realize that they suffer (in denial), even they choose to judge.  It is the people who are in the rehabs, etc. or those who acknowledge the disease of addict who are the 'good' ones, if you can use that word.  The ones who walk through life in denial, it's sad.
Why do people judge those that make it into the public's eye because they choose to do something about it (or are forced to).  They are no different than anyone else.
I hope the day comes when people aren't so quick to judge others...  
I wish i could help more by getting more involved with addicts... i think i might be able to help some because i understand so much now.
But first and foremost, i need to help myself.  I've got a lot of work ahead of me.
Thank you for being here.
Good luck to you too.
Lv Jenny

[jennyfla]

Geez, i reread my post.  What you said was very good and encouraging, and i am very happy to hear it.
What i was reacting to was some of the judgements that have been made that i've seen... not just for us, but other remarks i have heard.
I'm very glad that they addressed this issue in that way in such a public way.
Good for them!!!!
I hope it continues!
Thank you!
:)
Lv Jenny

[wildcat]

Frank Lee,

First, after the first 12 hours you will start to feel anxiety and a headache building like you have never felt before in your life.

24 hours- you will problably have the shakes so bad you will be begging to go see a doctor, you may even start your seizures by then.

Your muscles will all start to cramp up like you had run a marathon and nothing to help you stop it. Advil, won't even help, as you probably will vomit anything you eat or drink.

36-48, maybe up to 72 hours in some people, the seizures will begin and with all the various anti-convulsant type sedatives your brain is used to, they will be violent and one right after the other and you will be praying for death by this time. You will stiffen up and not be able to move and shaking like a jackhammer and it will continue on, over and over until you take something to relieve it. If you don't die from heart failure or respiratory collapse, then this hell will continue for another couple of days in which you will problably go into the DT's [Delirium Tremens] where you won't even know where you are, who you are, and what is happening to you. You will be in complete seizure delirium. As Thomas mentioned you will end up in the psych ward and probably violent like you never thought you could get. The fear builds too as it goes along. The psych techs will probably have to tie you down to stop the violent outbursts. If you want to torture yourself, that would be the perfect way.

I was only on booze at the time, [1 big bottle of Vodka a day.] I drank around the clock to stop the withdrawal shakes which would start in only about 6-8 hours. I knew it would ruin my job so I wanted to quit. I tried out-patient detox while constantly relapsing because of the seizures and pain, and I had 65 seizures in 3 months. It was the worst three months of my life. I really and truly thought I was going to die. I begged the doctor to put me into in-patient treatment by that time and it was the mental ward, the only place that detoxed here and they did not really know what detox was. They didn't even know what a seizure looked like. I ended up on 12 MG of Klonopin and am still on 10-11 MG a day, today.

I have been off the booze for 1 1/2 years but now I am on Codiene for chronic pain, and Klonopin for continued seizure activity due to permanent brain damage from all the past seizures during withdrawal. The chronic pain is from something else, the seizures are from the improper detox.

Now, if this sounds like your type of challenge then go for it. I predict, as soon as the shakes start, you'll change your mind!!!! You need in-patient treatment. They will give you medication to reduce the discomfort and serious withdrawal symptoms. Please do yourself a favor and don't try to detox yourself.

You sound like someone who is studying our responses since you used the word ethanol however. That leaves me suspicious of your true motives for posting!!!!! You may as well have shortened it to ETOH!!!!

Anyhow, I am in my so-called Temporal Lobe Babble Syndrome again so I had better go.

Take care and good luck. Keep us posted. Prayers to all.

wildcat

[Milo]

Bless your heart, your first post in response to mine was clear & just fine (I've told you you write well, remember? :)) I think about Robert Downey Jr. & all the hell he's been through. I can't imagine what it would be like to struggle with addiction & have the public & the courts watching your every move! Also happened to see a movie (on the "True Stories Channel") about Betty Ford & her problems. It did a good job of showing how & why she developed the problems she had & how she overcame them.
We have to keep reminding ourselves & each other that we have no more reason to be ashamed than a person with pneumonia or other illness. When I was unexpectedly confronted by several people about my suspected substance abuse, I was horrified, felt humiliated & deeply shamed, & of course immediately went into a defensive posture & denied everything. That was long before I started reading & then posting here. If they had taken me aside and instead told me they thought I might be having heart problems, I would have been scared but grateful & gone right to the doctor. But the shame associated w/"substance abuse' instead made me become even more isolated & secretive. This forum was (and remains) the only place where I felt comfortable sharing my struggles, & even that was difficult at first. I'm not out of the woods yet, but already I feel I'm a better person (no bragging, just happy) for having gone through this. I already *know* you're a good person, & I  know you & your family will eventually be fine & stronger too, even if it feels like too much to handle right now. Write me any time, as you know I'm here to help you as you have helped me. -- Milo

[jennyfla]

Hi Milo,
I am happy you found this place too!  You are such a comfort to me (plus you like my writing, lol!)
I too, am so thankful that i found this special place!
I am glad you are feeling happier these days... Like they say, take it one day at a time.
They say that when you crave your addictive substance, that the craving lasts for only a very short time (in the form of minutes).  If you can only preoccupy your mind with something else temporarily, the craving will dissapear.  It might come back again in a very short time, but again, preoccupy and stay focused, it will go away.  Then slowly, the cravings begin to space further and further apart until they are few and far between.
Hearing that you are happier makes me happier (can't help it, i'm co-dependent, lol!)
Thank care of yourself, and from one shy person to another, hold your head up high, and never forget who you really are!
Lv Jenny

[Frank Lee]

Thomas,

I couldn't open the benzo site, but have done enough research to become scared. I contacted a detox doctor yesterday who said he would take cash (no insureance, no contact with my FP). He is a former vicodin abuser, clean and practicing for 15 years but doesn't have any of the credentials you suggested. My counselor will work with him. I still think I can detox on my own but I believe, due to the polysubstance abuse, I should err on the side of saftey. However if the Doc is abusive ( I've been the reciepent of abusive shrinks in the past), won't guaranntee confidentiality and won't offer me any singinficant weaning substance, I am out of there and back on my own.

I want to thank you and the board for keeping me focused on the severity of the situation. Right now I have mixed feelings - what would life be like without my buzz three times a day. I don' think I have ever seen a happy ex addict - has anyone? These are selfish ramblings, but honest ones. Anyway, I will keep you all posted and I hope you are all doing well. This board has had a significant impact on my life.

Frankie Lee

[Wizard]

Frankie, I've been following your posts and wanted to say good luck to you. I think it's good that you found someone to work with you to get you through the proccess. I know Benzo's can be a very serious thing to deal with as Thomas can tell you. I myself have been off of all opiates now for a few months after years of using, but now today I get to start weening off of Lorazapem. My Dr. told me yesterday it was time to start decreasing my Ativan till we got me off it. I'm actually a litte excited to get off of it all although a little scared because I feel so good now that I don't want to mess with what isn't broke. LOL
Thomas, how are you doing my brother? I seem to be following down your road here although so far without any seizures. I hope all is well for you both and I will be keeping you in my thoughts and prayers.
Power & Magick 2 U,
Peace & Light on us all,
Wiz

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Your question about happy ex-addicts caught my attention. I wonder about that myself, a lot. I've met very few recovering addicts that were "happy, joyous and free". That's supposed to be the goal, and yes, I've had glimpses of it.

Yesterday, I was told that my nephew was in the hospital due to a stabbing. A drug deal gone bad as they say. He had supposedly been clean for six years. He has a wife and a three year old son and making fantastic money. I am deeply disappointed and angry and every other emotion about this. Sadly, I understand what happened because I've been around the block a few times myself! I sure wish that they would let me see him. The entire family is devastated. We just had a family reunion here on the 4th and everything seemed so normal. It hits home pretty hard.  J.B.

[Wizard]

I just had to jump in and tell you I'm a VERY HAPPY recovering addict. To think otherwise would give me no reason to stay that way. It makes me happy to know that I can REALLY feel my loved ones instead of seeing everything through a fog. Sure I have my moments when I'm unhappy but so does every NON addict I know. if I weigh my happy times as an using addict against my non using times now with a CLEAR head...I'll take recovered all day long. I think the key is to replace the emptiness of the missing "Dragon" with something of REAL substance. For me it was family, friends and faith. I pray for happiness to you all.
Power & Magick 2 U,
Peace & light on us all,
P.S. J.B. I'll pray for your family too God Bless you,
Wiz

[jennyfla]

Good luck with your weening off of your medications!
I know you can do it, you have so much going for you, and your family is very special to you, and that will give you the strength you need within itself.
Thank you for all your kind words through my recent life troubles.  Things will be good for all of us!!!!!
Good luck!
Lv Jenny

[Frank Lee]

Thanks for the words of encouragement and sorry for the recent events JB. They say things happen for a reason, but how can a stabbing make any sense or amount to anything? I will keep you in my thoughts. Wizard, you said something so similar to what Stevie Ray Vaughn said when he quit drugs. He said his worst day sober was a 100 times better than any day when he was using. I am sure there are happy ex addicts. I am simply finding reasons why I don't want to stop. Here's another one - excruiating back pain today. Do you think anyone is going to perscribe me an effeciteve pain reliever? No. Especially if my detox gets in records and I am going to hold the detox doctor to this. One of the reasons I got addicted is becuase my doctors wouldn't perscribe effecive pain relief, I had to find other ways to obtain the drugs. Not justifying, jus explaining. Then, I got so many pills that I just went wild, at age 45. Go figure.

Hope  you all are well,

Frankielee

[FlowerChild11601]

I just wanted to say that I was sober for 3 months and although it was a relatively short period of time, it was the happiest I had been in 10 years!  Yes, there were days I felt like **** and wanted to use but I went to 2 meetings that day and woke up the next day Thanking God that I made it through that day and was still sober.  I fell back into my active addiction due to chronic pain (stupidly thinking I could take the prescribed amounts for pain relief) and was back to square one before I knew it. Life is SO much easier without hangovers, shaking, vomiting, etc etc etc. Your thinking becomes clearer and things are easier to handle.  I wish you the best of luck with your decision (tapering/in patient detox - whatever you decide).  Just remember, there is a lot of love here and you are not alone!  :)  I am currently down to 3 lorcets per day.  I was taking SO much of everything and just starting to add Valium to the list.  I only took the Valium a few nights to sleep and then said, Gosh, now it's lorcets, percocets, oxys, valium, alcohol (sometimes cocaine if I was drunk enough).  I DO NOT WANT TO LIVE LIKE THAT!  I DO NOT WANT TO DIE!  and I don't want you to die either.  It's a struggle.  I have heard that once you are detoxed and then get some sobriety under your belt that it gets easier - of course there will be bad days but like Stevie Ray said - our worst sober day is still 100 times better than using!  Much luck and love to you and all here in the forum, Maryanne

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Thank you for reminding me why I keep trying. Reality has it's ups and downs and it's infinately better to be clean and sober! Almost every day I see someone who is much more worse off than me and all I can say is "but for the grace of God, there go I". As long as we have the ability to be of service to others, we can be happy. On dope, I only care about me and my stash and manipulating more. Pure evil!

My nephew is doing okay, physically. His wife has already moved back in with her parents with their son. Sounds bad. She's a professional woman and I believe she will likely ask for a divorce. The drug involved was CRACK which has got to be the most insidious substance ever concocted. I just wonder how he was able to hide this crack addiction for so long a time?  J.B.

[FlowerChild11601]

My brother in law smoked crack for 6 months straight every single day and his girl had NO CLUE.  He hid it well (went to work everday and night) smoked whenever he could - especially after she went to bed at night.  One day he pulled over to the side of the road and sat bawling like a baby.  He realized he "couldn't Control IT"  He had spent all the money they were saving to move to Florida.  He admitted it to her and quit.  They moved to Florida on the money she had saved in her account over the 6 months and as far as I know, he doesn't smoke it anymore.  This is a clean cut, college kid who had two jobs and looked SO HEALTHY that you would have never had a clue (given some more time, I'm sure there would have been many) - point is, he was able to hide it well.  Glad to hear from you JB - hope all is well on the home front and God Bless, Maryanne

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Good to hear from you again! Aside from the above problem, things on the home front are going well. I'm into gratitude these days and living one day at a time. So far, it's been a great summer and I've kept busy. No time to fret!

Anyway, Im'm glad you're back!  J.B.

[cindi]

After my gig in rehab about 12 years ago i went to pick up a friend of mine,,as i went inot his apartment he sat smoking crack,,,I had never touched cocain at all because I was afraid I would become an addict,,,(our minds are sooo weird) anyway  I asked to try it  he said yes and I was off and running..this lasted about 2 months..in that 2 months, I was arrested,,a 4 cruiser wild police over the north side of Youngstown, Ohio,,,had to lay on the ground face down in the pouring mud while the cops held guns to us...I was not driving...I was stealing from anyone and everyone I could steal from and was not showing up for work etc...this was all in 8 weeks....one night i sat there after spending alot of money trying desperately to get high and it was not working...I sobbed,  called my sponsor, severed all ties with ties "friend" of mine and started over again..at first my friend bought the dope for me, then he took all my money, taught me to "cook it" man, I thought he was a real pal....crack is the most dangerous poison that was ever crated I think..all though I have never tried heroin...shooting all that other **** into my body was bad enough....crack can pull us down so fast.....when i look back at what it does    my friend, 6'4" 250 pounds of solid man, was reduced to a frightened animal when he smoked...he would barricade the doors, heat registers etc..he would become so paranoid..he was horrible...anyway...this disease is a monster...crack is a monster...and but for the grace of God, there go I....my love to you all                cin

[Thomas]

I've met a few happy ex-addicts. Most can be found with the help of this web site:

http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org/

Addiction is usually such a lonely business. These modest little get togethers help more than you can imagine.

[Frank Lee]

T.

Thanks again for your continued responses. However, something you said, somethinhg often mentioned on this board just stuck in my craw.  AA is, in theory, a fascist organization. At least that's my opinion.  After 18 years of catholic schools I continue in *recovery* from Catholicism. I would never let those AA nazis tell me about their higher power. Obviously this is not to say that the organization (though highly overrated due to the fact that it's the main game it town) is effective for many folks, although I opine 30% is more accurate than 50. But I would wretch if I had to go to those meetings and hitch my star to their gaseous benign vertebrae hovering above me. It's BS and I am surprised someone of your intellectual moxy would subscribe to those tenets. I simply don't have that alternative. What's our there for us agnostic junkies, other than deep do do, eh? Anyway, I meet with the detox doc, himself a recovering something or other, Tuesday and will report back.

Hope you don't mind my "frankness". If I have offended anyone I apologize. This is usually the point of departure wherin I become the devil rather than some hapless little angel in need of support. So, feel free to ban me folks. I respect what works for others, but have strong opinions about what appalls me.

A good night to all,

Frank

[wildcat]

Frank,

Your [fear] of detox and [denial] of really wanting to continue using is your only excuse for trying the ["push the devil away game."]

It doesn't work here. Some of us believe in God and others may not. That is each individuals decision on how they want to live their life. This way you have to take all responsibilities for your own actions, you cannot blame God or evil. Because if you don't believe in God or goodness, then you can't believe in the devil or evil either. In your thinking then we are just mutations of cells over a long period of time that made us into human animals, with no purpose or meaning for our existance.

We've seen these anti-HP advocats before and they just don't work. You can not change our feelings on how God has helped our life, you can only deal with how your own life is being dealt with. Are you happy with it? If you don't have an HP, then I guess you must be it? No one else is smarter, stronger, better at anything than you?

HP doesn't always mean God in A.A.. It mean's your HP, could be your dad you look up to or your dog, who knows! It simply helps define the difference between us addicts fighting a disease with some kind of encouragement and growing spiritual strength as it goes. And the HP idea usually is a growing spiritual one over time with people in A.A. from my own experience there.

So hang around and get high without denying it. Don't hide behind if there is a God of not!!!! If you use, you are an addict, junkie, alcoholic, etc. I am an alcoholic, addict, I don't know about junkie, I never shot up and I thought that term was for those kind of addicts but I don't know.

And [NO] my worst day sober is definately not better than my best day high. That I will agree is A.A. hype. I enjoy getting high and will admit it. I feel great when I am high. Often I feel in pain and suicidal when I am sober. So that statement doesn't jive with me. Anyway hang there, you don't need to leave for having your own opinion.
      __________________________________________________

[cindi], by the way, those stories about your rehab and bust face down in the mud were quit fascinating and moving. Thanks for sharing those!!!!

luv to all, even the non-believers and all us addicts.

wildcat

[Frank Lee]

You are right for the most part. I do believe in a higher power, I have just been burned by some of the AA doctrine before. I would never, never want to insult someone who benefited from AA and, in retrospect I apologize for even posting my concerns. AA is a valid means for addicts, just not me, just not now. Regarding what Stevie Ray said, I think it is probably true for some who have recovered and not accurate for others. I admire the man who remained completely clean the last 4 years of his life and clearly enjoyed living sober.

Again, the post was not meant to offend. I respect everyone on this board and I am an addict, I don't think I've tried to deny that. I am just trying to find ways out and along that search I may stumble. If I do, bear with me.

Thanks,

Frank

[FlowerChild11601]

I am not offended at all by what you said.  AA works for some people but not all.  There are some others I know of in "Smart Recovery" who are sober many years and who are happy with that.  (they had tried AA and then SR).  I say, however you get sober is up to you.  There are many tools to use (programs, meetings, books, sober friends, whatever)   We are all entitled to our own opionions and each recovery is individual.  I thought that it was so great that you expressed in your "frankness" (lol) how you felt and then were gracious enough to apologize just in case you offended someone.  Being honest to ourselves and others is an important part of recovery (no matter what "program" you are into following).  Good luck with that doc - I hope he can help you.  Although I am Catholic and was brought up practicing, I never felt a connection to God.  I was always taught almost to "fear" him and there is so MUCH guilt involved (least that's what I got out of church and CCD classes).  Now that I just talk to God, I feel more connected and have a new relationship with him.  But like someone (think it was Wildcat) mentioned earlier, your HP doesn't have to God.  It could be anything that helps guide you (an inspirational book - etc).  Anyway, I just wanted to say that I respect your view and I really wish you all the best luck in the world.  We care about you.  This forum is not here for criticism (we all get our share of that from the world), it's here for support.  You are not alone.  Love, Maryanne

[Frank Lee]

Thanks!

I had never head of smart recovery, entered it in google and went right to the website where I will spend lunch researching. It looks very interesting. This board has so much to offer. I also appreciate you understanding my post which was probably a bit over the top. I too had quite an experience in catholoicism, altar boy and all and came away quite disillusioned, but I honestly do think there is some higher power and boy will I need it in the days to come. I see this detox doc tomorrow and will share his take if anyone is interested. Once again, I appreciate you taking time to make me feel at home here. Take care, Frank.

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

I enjoyed reading your comments about AA and religion. I generally support each for what they are worth in concept. AA/NA is a great place to start after detox for most people seeking aftercare. I had to go to 90 meetings in 90 days thanks to the court system. All I can say is keep an open mind! The answers will come as long as you can stay clean and sober. How you maintain is your business. I'd like to hear about your meeting with the addiction specialist.  J.B.

[Wizard]

First off let me say that I'm a "Happy, Recovering, Practicing Catholic, Addict". Frank I'm not offended by what you posted. I'm amazed at how many "Catholics" are on this forum...I'm wondering if there is some corelation LOL. Frank, My wife and myself both went through Catholic schools, and I was an altar boy, We both were married in the church and both fell away from it only to return years later.(been married 27 years). I just wanted to say that we had the "guilts" I had the nun beatings, so on and so forth...lost the faith in the church and then one day in a crisis...(almost lost my pregnant wife to death) I found my faith again in my Higher Power. I took it upon my self to study the history and teachings of Catholocism from it's origins by reading the Catachisis as it was written and I found out that it wasn't the church that was F**cked up, it was the PEOPLE who I was exposed to growing up putting the fears and guilts into my impressionable mind. I'm not on a crusade of conversion here but I can attest to KNOWING that once I understood my religion and it's written docterin it made all the sense in the world. NO GUILT, NO FEAR, for that is MAN MADE. You will find a million interpratations af many religions as seen by many different eyes. For me to be insulted by you for your beliefs would mean that I am not following the teachings of my church as it was written. Therefore, I respect and love you whether you like it or not LOL! For ME, if it wasn't for my set of Rosary beads AND this forum I would never have gotten through the first 4 days of cold turkey. I prayed my heart out to get me through this and my prayers were answered. It has been said that "Whatever works" to get the desired results is okay. I believe that.
Wildcat, your post was so very articulate and made so very much sense to me. Thank you very much for putting things in such a way. It reminded me of some of the writings of St. Thomas Aquinas. Touche' :-)
Maryanne, let the guilt go! keep talking to God and believe He will lead you to the Light!
J.B. you hit the nail on the head with "Keep an open mind" Never stop seeking knowledge. That is what sets us apart from the rest! Keeping my mind stimulated with knowledge leaves no room for stimulation with drugs!
Frank, to you my brother I say PLEASE don't leave us for fear of insulting or angering anybody. WE NEED you and your experience and beliefs to draw from. We ALL have something to offer......
Now, that's all of Wiz's B.S. for the day LOL,
I WILL pray for us all recovered or not, loved ones or not. God Bless us all,
Peace & Magick 2 u all, Peace & Light upon us,
Luv, Wiz

[wildcat]

[wizard], who is St.Thomas Aquinas???? If that was supposed to be an insult, at least explain who it is so I know who I am being compared to and what the insult was. LOL  That way I can at least get a laugh. Oh, by the way, Was the loved or not, mentioned at your closing meant for me too? Who doesn't like who on this board? You don't like me? or Maybe the Doctor? LOL

I was born Catholic as well, But since a child even though forced to go to church. I was beaten by my father so I always went out in nature and developed my own beliefs in God, believing I was put on this earth to protect, animals, children and people worse off than myself. I believe in the power of nature and that's why I often go to the jungle to pray and feel closer to God that way.


[Frank]- You did not offend me at all, I did not realize it would sound that way to some. I simply was explaining the facts about some of the people who have written to this forum before and got into a really hot debate for weeks over many things. I was just trying to filter out the possibility of too much religious debate when this is an addiction forum. Like I said in my post to you, I thought I made clear, everyone is welcomed here on this forum, everyone has there own opinion whether we all agree or not. Not everyone is always going to agree as noted in Wizards last post indicating someone doesn't like someone. If he doesn't like me, then all I have to say is OH WELL, I cannot get worked up over a person I've never met before, and one or so out of the four billion people on this earth that have a chance to like or not like me. If one was to worry about that we'd all be whacko by now. I am already whacko anyway so it doesn't matter. LOL

Anyway Wiz, I don't know what you meant, I should not speculate, but I want you to know that you have added alot to this forum and seem to have a good heart. I hope I didn't somehow offend you somewhere down the line. LOL

I am in my typical [Temporal Lobe Babble Syndrome] again and it's because my meds were due three hours ago. I had better go take them and rest my over-active mind!

Luv to all, and Prayers to all,

wildcat

[Frank Lee]

Wildcat, you should do so well, compared to Thomas A. - big shoes man. I would say it's a compliment. Wizard thanks. I feel welcome. I am anxious about tomorrow, may take me a day to post the results. Wonder what the doc will say when he sees my intake.Oh well, I am going to try and if it doesn't work I'll have to consider a self detox, which is not too appealing. Anyway, you guys have been great. I don't think I would have made the appointment with out your input.

Definately some catholic factor by the way, in all this addiction stuff :--).

F Lee

[wildcat]

[wizard], sorry if you were saying something and I mistook as something else. I have a habit of thinking the negatives first, a bad habit of mine I guess from the low self esteem that goes with addiction and especially the seizure disorder. Thank you if it was supposed to be a compliment. I still don't know who that person is however.

[Frank Lee], Thanks for the response. I think you will do okay during intake. Tell them you have considered suicide when you tried detoxing yourself and they are more likely to take you in and then detox you while you are there. That's what I had to do here because they don't intake just for detox here.

You're place may be different though. Of course detox can make you temorarily feel suicidal anyhow especially if you go into the seizures or DT's. They will know that. Just be completely honest with the amount and what you use. It will make a major difference in how seriously they take your problem. If you downplay it, they may not think it is serious enough for in-patient detox and make you try out-patient first like they did me. I didn't downplay anything either although I was only on alcohol at that time.

Good luck, keep us posted. You won't have much freedom though during detox, so you may not have a computer available for a while.

I'll be praying for you, may God's force of nature be with you.

wildcat

[Wizard]

Wildcat my friend, and I REALLY mean dear friend, what I said was the HUGEST compliment that I personally could give to anybody. St. Thomas Aquinas is one of my favorite philosophers and one of the greatest minds of all time. You took me wrong for sure. I was totally agreeing with you. My comment of me maybe not being popular to the rest of the world was meant to be philsophical about ME because it might not be politically correct in this day and age for such "archaic" faith that I might have. Wildcat, I respect you tremendously...please, there is NO ONE on this forum that I dislike and I hope that we are all open minded enough to respect all kinds of point of views. The only shot that I have ever taken at anybody on this forum was this morning to Dr. Steve and after I did i immediately  apologized because it was uncalled for. I have never been offended by anyone her stateing their point of view. If I came accross as I was offended by you and was in some way retaliating,
then you have my DEEPEST apology. As i stated publicly to Dr. Steve, this is not my nature. Please forgive me as I love everyone here. I just wanted to make it clear that for me, my Catholic faith has helped me through some very big crisis' in my life. hoping that I'm still in your circle of friends as I think of you, God Bless you and good evening.
Power & Magick 2 U,
Wiz

[wildcat]

wizard,

I apologize for even thinking the negative thoughts. Like I said it's my own insecurity showing itself. It's one of my main spychological hangups. I really did not know he was a philosopher. Thank you for the compliment. I didn't think I had offended you because I had never said anything negative, but my mind was just in one of those unstable modes I guess. I truely care for everyone on this forum and I especially like your style. The midievel spelling? style is great. I used to collect little things in brass like that. I am sorry for upsetting the boat, just a little storm wave passing by. Temporal Lobe Tempest!

It's the end of my work day now and I am really tired. My prayers are with you and everyone on the forum, especially those suffering in pain and enduring withdrawal tonight. A few are trying hard but as you say the Dragon is a tough one to slay. I truly would be scared to death to try to detox off the Klonopin. I heard it's alot worse than alcohol or any of the other benzos because of it's long half life. If I dropped a pill a month as the doctor would suggest, it would literaly take one year!! Although I am used to seizures, they are mostly mild and controlled now. The thought of the violent 45 minute seizures and DT's makes me cringe every time I even see the words. I don't think I would make it though that again. I am too worn down. Maybe someday in the future. Well I had better go for now,
thanks for answering my post and sorry you had to explain,

[wildcat]

Wizard, I just wrote a long post and somehow deleted it accidently and I am so tired but I'll try again. It won't be the same, the first time is always the best.

I started to say I am sorry I took you wrong about what you said. That was just my Neurosis (insecurity) showing through. I did not realize that guy was an important philosopher. And I do enjoy your old mideivil spelling? style, I think it is great.  I even collect that type of stuff and have a crystal ball on top of my table. I think your posts have contributed alot to this forum and you have a very compassionate heart. Never mind the little slip this morning with the doc, it was a lame answer on his part.

My prayers go out to all on this forum especially those who are in pain or withdrawing tonight! I know the dragon is too hard for me to slay right now. Just the thought of trying to get off the Klonopin makes me cringe. I heard it's worse than alcohol withdrawal and most of the other benzos because of it's long half life. Although I am used to seizures because now they are shorter and milder than before and relatively controlled. But I fear the thought of the violent 45 minute seizures and DT's. I never want to go through that again. I don't think I'd live this time I am too worn down. Maybe someday in the future.

Anyway, I had better go for now since I am so tired I almost deleted by accident again. I am so happy you answered my post and am sorry you had to explain, I should have read the good in it but again I get insecure, I call it my Temporal Lobe Lapse. I really enjoy your posts and can tell you have a compassionate heart of gold. Take care, God bless you all and keep you safe.

wildcat

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

All this talk about religion is a hoot! I'm Catholic as well.

The last time I was in drug rehab, an addiction specialist told me that my chances for recovery were below average.  She explained to me that American Indians and Irish Catholics are genetically predisposed to addiction! I thought that idea was a crock of sh*t at the time but have always wondered about it.

Ever hear of anything like this before?  J.B.

[Wizard]

LOL!!! A HOOT it is for sure. I can't say that I have but maybe it's because of all the "wine" we start drinking so early on! The best part of being an altar boy when I was a kid was so we could sneak out a bottle of the un-consicrated wine and make ourselves sick playing grown up! LOL On the other hand, whether we've fallen away or not maybe we have an inside line to "guardian angels" that lead us to help! LOL I'M JUST KIDDING! Nobody beat me up for that one! ROFLMAO! Be an interesting study anyway J.B. Have a Rainbow of a day and I'll be atcha later!
Power & Magick 2 U,
Peace & Light on us all,
Wiz (hiccup!) excuse me ;-)

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Yep, I was altarboy back in the Latin days! I still remember the smell of Sherry and Port in the sacristy(sp), there were cases of it. Sure we had a nip or two! It was unnerving to go out there and play altarboy with all those people watching,he,he!  J.B.

[Frank Lee]

Well folks I did it. The doc was younger than me, probably late 30’s. I immediately liked him. Before our ‘consult’ I sent him a history and my daily intake (for those of you who don’t know, go to the top of the thread). Doc said it was amazing I had not od’d. He told me that years ago he was a vicodin addict and, like me a functioning one, who made it through med school. Since I had sent him 2 pages of info he waived the usual intake queries and cut to the chase. Here’s the series of questions: highlights and low points of childhood through 12, through 18 through 30 up until present. If you could write your obit what would it be? What would you like it to be?

Then he suggested a book called “I’ll quit tomorrow” by Vernon Johnson – anybody ever heard of it? He also said that people like him and me could never take any kind of drugs or alcohol because we had a biological disease. I withhold judgment on that statement and told him so. He said ok, we could detox you in six weeks. I said I don’t think I can do it that soon and I want to do this on an out patient basis due to my professional situation and the fact that I can’t have any of this in my med records (which he promised me would  be the case. In fact, for the hour I paid him cash, $125. I can tell you I won’t be able to do that very much, I have kids in college but at least there is no record). Ok he says, send me a detox plan. I said, I was hoping he had one. But this morning I typed one up, 14 weeks detoxing one substance at a time (Dr. Steve and anyone I will be glad to email this to you – I put a lot of research into it over the last year.)

He assured me that I would not have that many physical withdrawal problems, (he’d take care of that with some rx’s) but that psychological withdrawals would be a problem. Again, if you read my original post under still trying to detox you will see that I have a therapist who will only work with me if my detox is medically supervised. Then he tells me that I have been “numb for the last 12 years” because I have been on Valium 5mg.s twice a day. I said I didn’t necessarily agree (some of us are born with valium deficit synapses). He didn’t demand it but asked me if I would also stop the Valium. I agreed to do so.  He said he would prescribe some medication when the withdrawals set in, he wanted my therapist name so he could work with them – all of which I agreed to.

So that’s where I am folks. I sent the detox plan today and we will see what he says. I am actually looking forward to this but have to admit I am also scared on many levels. But what do you all think?  Dr. Steve – is this kosher in your book? I have to admit, we had a good rapport. I have worked with doctors for over 20 years and this guy was very real and honest.

Addendum, the catholic thing is just driving me crazy. I too was drinking wine at age 10, on the altar with the priests. That, confession, boarding school – I don’t know, it is strange. So I posted on “ezboard” and asked around. I have no idea how they will respond, could be the typically a-retentive hyper religiosity or it may yield some interesting response. Here is the link, if they let my post stay –

http://pub45.ezboard.com/fxcatholicfrm1.showMessage?topicID=38.topic

Anyway, hope you are all well tonight. I will keep in touch if you will.

Frank.

[jennyfla]

That is wonderful news, and you really sound like you have made your mind up, and this is what you plan to do definately!!!!
16-weeks sounds very workable, with hopefully, little discomfort!!!
I just want to wish you good luck, and you know we are all here when you need us!
Lv Jenny

[Wizard]

That is great news Bro! Sounds like you got a program that will work with the amount of effort you have put into it. Please do keep in touch as I'm sure ALL of us are not only interested but want to cheer you on each step of the way! Good luck and Godspeed!
Power & Magick 2 U,
Peace & Light on us all,
Wizard

[wildcat]

Frank-

I hate to be the party pooper, but I don't think out-patient will work, espexially with as many different things you are on.
I was only on alcohol when I first tried to self detox and failed miserably as mentioned above.

Then I tried the doctor with some meds fast in-patient 10 days and relapsed in only four, I was not past the main withdrawal and still having seizures.

She punished me by cutting me off from the Klonopin she put me on and I went through the above mentioned again, only this time I almost died. I had to beg her to put me back in and she said at least six weeks. I did and got off the booze. Like your doc she wanted me off the Klonopin too but my anxiety disorder and newly created seizure disorder prevented it and made her really angry.

She says anyone addicted to anything will eventually go back to their original favorite. I disagreed and have not yet after 1 1/2 years. I changed psychiatrists because she was going to cold turkey cut me off from the Klonopin 12 MG a day I was taking.

The other psych doc knows I need it for the seizures.

Since you are on so much, it will be extra hard esspecially if he wants you off the benzos too by the end. You will have anxiety and that may lead back to self medication unless you cannot get to it. That's where the six weeks in-patient helps. The withdrawal and cravings are reduced or gone by then and only psychological cravings which programs will help you with staying clean.

Good luck I hope you can do it, but don't rule out in-patient treatment. There are strict confidentiality laws and although I live on a small island, people except those that work here don't know about me being in here unless I told A.A. members or I told talk radio programs myself to educate the public that our legal drug alcohol is the worst of the worst. Another alcohol related driving death last night, maybe two. Almost every day, it's disgusting.

Yes, I now work here, my home away from home!!!!LOL I am working toward being a drug and alcohol counselor. A big change from typhoon forecater!!!!! They say those that have been there make the best counselors!!!!

I wish you and everyone else luck and happiness. God bless us all and chase away those dragons!!!!!!!!

luv,  wildcat

[Frank Lee]

The doc looked at my detox proposal of 14 days and said he is sending me a quicker plan. He also wants me off ethanol quicker than I had proposed. And, he wants me off the rather small amount (IMHO) I took of valium for 12 years before all these problems. I am keeping an open mind, scared and ready to try the out paitient route. I appreciate your kind, wise words and will keep in touch.

F.

[Wizard]

Wildcat, you keep it up! I truly believe the best HAVE BEEN there. You will be great at what you do!
Frank, please DO keep the open mind and take the ride. Sounds like your doc is trying to help. I'm here in both of your corners rooting and praying for you.
Good Luck and may God bless you both.
Power & Magick 2 U,
Wiz

[Frank Lee]

Wizard, Wildcat, Thomas ( you still there??) and everyone..

Well, got the fax from the doc today. He changed my detox plan from 14 weeks to 7, wants me in AA meetings ( look at my post 7/15 to see what I think of AA), I apologized to the board about my AA comments because I don't want to offend anyone, but you won't find me at one of those meetings. What scares me is that he wants me to detox from everything, ethanol, xanax, hydrocodone, codiene phosphate, darvon, valium - all at once. The ehtanol he wants detoxed in 7 days - tell me I won't seizure with the other substances on the wane. The rest he changed from 14 weeks to 4. When I get down to 15 mgs of hydros ( remember I have been on the hydos for 5 years and I am at 80 mgs a day now) he wants cold turkey hydo withdrawl. I sent him a fax asking what the hell I am going to use in the interim.

I am now getting scared and, although everything you guys say and I read, says it's impossible, I am wondreing if I should blow this guy off and try to do this myself. I would like your candid opinons about his detox plans.

Thanks and hope you are all well tonight.

FLEE

[Wizard]

Frank, I'm only going to speak for me. I said before I have NO medical training except being used for a guinea pig from time to time. You seem to be on a lot of different addicting substances at one time and I don't know about the seizure thing myself. I went "cold turkey" myself at home with only the support of my wife and this forum. My dr.bailed out on me when he freaked about a dumb ass seminar he went to that said he'd get in trouble if he tried to wean his patients himself. I told him fine I'll do it myself because I wasn't gonna go away anywhere unless I couldn't do it. This is what I was taking  prior to kicking. For about 8-9 years I was taking Vicodan es 8 at a time twice a day 4 .5 ativans at night for sleep. 3 years ago after back surgery, I added to the regiment 3 500mg Somas to the 8 Vics in the morning and added 4 oxycontins 20mg.each NOT chewed in the afternoon still taking 4 .5 ativans at night. This went on for the last 3 years. On April 29,2001 I stopped the oxy,Soma, Hydros after I caught myself drinking cough syrup with codein because I was running low on the oxy's. I said enough..... I continued to take the Ativan at night. I now am tapering that to nothing. I'm currently at 1 Ativan.5 in the morning and 1 Ativan.5 at night. I am shortly going to drop the morning benzo and then eventually the night. It can Be done. Not easy but CAN BE DONE. I pray an awful lot and I now feel better than I have in many years. As I said Frank this is just how I did it. Everybody is different. I did use Thomas ' L-Tyrosine formula and it WORKED WELL. I'm not suggesting that you do what I did. Only you know how you feel man. Whatever you decide bro, I'll be praying for you.
Power & Magick 2 U,
Peace & Light on U 2,
Wiz

[wildcat]

[Wizard], Thanks for the kind words. I have a ways to go, three years experience and some more classes and getting off the narcs.

The Klonopin will have to be my seizure medication because the rest cause havoc on my system, but the rest of the stuff I plan to cut away from except Motrin for pain control and maybe Ultram for the Fibro or Lupus, whatever it is. But I am going to stay away from the heavier stuff. I know I will abuse it just like the Codiene. The dragon would be roaring with delight! And the wildcat would be going downhill on the landslide to disaster!!!! I wrote a song named that about addiction. Many others too.

Anyway I hope you are doing well and hanging in there. Best wishes and prayers to you along with a touch of my jungle wildcat power. Only God has the real power though!

[Frank] take it easy on the withdrawal. If you do try it, you will know when it is time to quit. If you go stiff and shake violently and can't move and then feel like **** when you come out of it or don't even remember it, you'll know you had better get to the in-patient unit for detox. You don't want a permanent seizure disorder like I have from improper detoxing!!! I'll be praying for you. I say take out one thing at a time. Take out the booze first. The benzo may have to be increased temporarily to stop the DT's and seizures. Once you are past that, make sure you don't go back to it for at least one month before trying another detox. If you cannot stay off the booze one month. than you know the out-patient will never work. Addiction is a disease that controls us completely. We have to get past the withdrawals and psychological stuff and it takes not having it available because we are dependent on it completly. Our bodies litterally need it to survive, and that's why it take professionals and weeks to detox properly. And hopefully then get into a solid support program besides only us here and stay around people that don't use so you don't relapse. It's hard but if you are determined enough you can eventually beat the dragon. But it may take several attempts. Don't give up from backsliding. just stop again where you left off and keep going without putting yourself down and making it worse.

Sometimes putting yourself through the torture of withdrawal may make you never want to touch the stuff again. I can't imagine going through what I went through again. I just don't see how I did it. It was only God's help and great counseling by truely compasionate people like us.

Lord God be with us all tonight! have a good day Frank and hang in there.

wildcat

[Kobe J]

Review of this forum has confirmed what I feared....I crossed
over this thread in an effort to understand my recent diagnosis
of epilepsy.  Dispite years of alchol addiction that I success-
fully kicked once for 5 years I experienced three G.Mal seizures
this last month for the first time.  (I was not detoxing, no recent binging but some recent use of coke.) Even having detoxed in rehab once and on my own once I did not put the two together.  (I thought I had a shelf fall on my head at home causing me to lose two days with no recollection of the accident...I had no unusual drinking or drugging pattern to make me think detox or OD.)
I was put on Dilatin after the #2 GM.  No identification of
the possible association of alchol by my Dr....I had no clue.  As I have never experienced such a serious medical event over which I had no control, I have been decreasing all med. consumption except cigarettes.  Of coursed I seized at work, a family business, and ended up in the hospital.  This is a company Dr., who has treated my sister for a massive stroke....so there is no chance to share my conclusions without worrying my folks ...they are rasing the kids for my disabled sister, for about another year until I get them. I cannot go into rehab...I run the family business...

So here I sit, to afraid to stop and to afraid to continue to take anything!!!.....That will show the powers to be to skip me next time free will is passed out.

[Kobe J]

Review of this forum has confirmed what I feared....I crossed
over this thread in an effort to understand my recent diagnosis
of epilepsy.  Dispite years of alchol addiction that I success-
fully kicked once for 5 years I experienced three G.Mal seizures
this last month for the first time.  (I was not detoxing, no recent binging but some recent use of coke.) Even having detoxed in rehab once and on my own once I did not put the two together.  (I thought I had a shelf fall on my head at home causing me to lose two days with no recollection of the accident...I had no unusual drinking or drugging pattern to make me think detox or OD.)
I was put on Dilatin after the #2 GM.  No identification of
the possible association of alchol by my Dr....I had no clue.  As I have never experienced such a serious medical event over which I had no control, I have been decreasing all med. consumption except cigarettes.  Of coursed I seized at work, a family business, and ended up in the hospital.  This is a company Dr., who has treated my sister for a massive stroke....so there is no chance to share my conclusions without worrying my folks ...they are rasing the kids for my disabled sister, for about another year until I get them. I cannot go into rehab...I run the family business...

So here I sit, to afraid to stop and to afraid to continue to take anything!!!.....That will show the powers to be to skip me next time free will is passed out.

[Frank Lee]

Thanks. I sent a letter to the doc today. The irony? I was given a huge promotion - there were 200 people in attendance applauding - no one at work knows I am a junkie. I feel like  such a fraud. I do think I can use my own detox plan ( Wiz et al i appreciate your stories) - the only draw back is that I have no supprort group./ The doc wants me to go to AA and my therapist says she is afraid of me because of all the drugs I am on. So neither are up for treating me just yet.

It's you guys tonight and I'll see what the mighty doc allows tomorrow.

ONE thing i can say for sure, I both loathe and need these drugs. I wish there was a simple path.

THanks and a good night to all - will keep you posted and I appreciate you being there for me - it has made a difference.

F.;

[Wizard]

The only part of your post I do not aggree with is you have NO support. Bro, you have us man. In the beginning this forum was ALL I had. It took me a while to get the courage to tell my wife. Once I did though, it was the largest load off my shoulders. you see she doesn't even drink socially let alone use so it was so hard for her to understand. I totally relate to your work situation. I'm the general manager of a company in charge of about 40 employees who had no idea that I was using the "Dragon". I not only hid it from my wife but also from them. They all, wife included, just thought I was an ******* a lot of the time (low stash times). Now my wife and employees think a miracle happened, and I can tell you it did the GOD. With Divine intervention leading me here, the support of the 'angels" on this forum and the love of my family I got through the worst of times. Now all I have to deal with is the "Dragon whispers" that call sometimes. When it happens I come here and read some posts to remind me of how far I have come and why I know I can't "chip" even one time. My heart and prayers go out to you dude, just know that we are here for you to lean on when you need us.
Power & Magick 2 U,
Peace & Light on us all,
Wiz

[Frank Lee]

Thanks, you and I have many similarlities. I have told my wife a little, but not the whole scene. Yes, you are right, I have this board and it has helped immensely, thank you all.

Frank