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Street Addicts vs. Rx Addicts: Beach, Cinna, Tx Becca, Tink & all
by DutchessGolden, May 30, 2007 12:00AM
I just got a chance to read the posts on those addicted to illicit druga vs. those addicted to prescription drugs. I was going to ask beachtowel for thoughts on this post since I know you have been in the street life and have seen many of the same things I have seen and have studied, until I saw your posts you had already responded to the posts. Cinnamonstix, you had asked a question about your ex who is addicted to crack getting beaten with a sledgehammer and signing out AMA to score drugs. I have never done street drugs, and yes I may come from a family woth an extreme amount of wealth and went to all private schools but I have been there and I have literally seen it all. Had you told me this same story 10 years ago, would I be shocked at his behavior? On the contrary, I would have expected it. "An addict is an addict" is only true in the sense that every addiction(including gambling, sex, alcohol etc,) stimulates the same pleasure center in the brain and on a behavioral level. It is not true in the sense that prescription addicts are the same as "street" addicts. How many of you here have ran out of pills and let someone F*CK you with a knife to your throat or a gun to your head in order to get more pills? How many of you here have performed oral sex to someone in a back alley to get more oxycodone? I am drawing on beachtowel's story on this one- how many here have sat in a house to get high on pills and watched someone begging for drugs get beaten, return begging for drugs again and get beaten again and then shot twice and had no concern with it b/c you were only concerned with your pills? On the flip side, how many have gone to get pills and got beaten, returned again to the same place after being beaten to a pulp because you needed pills? I use the word need because in addiction, most especially in addiction to street drugs it is more beyond want than what most of us can imagine.
The body has a hierarchy of needs. The fight or flight response is a perfect example. If you are in immediate danger the body uses all of its energies to prepare to flee quickly or confront the danger. The digestive tract shuts down, heart rate increases, epinephrine jolts to amazing levels. If you haven't eaten in days, your stomach is not going to be bothering you for food. However if you are safe and out of harms way, the digestive tract is working and sending you signals that you need to eat. Food is a necessity, it just isn't a necessity at a time when you are in immediate danger. Someone withdrawing from crack, meth, or heroin- their body needs the drug to function. The body needs food and shelter, and safety but in withdrawal the body needs the drug above any of those and focuses its energies to that.
The opiates in the pills most of us here take or are taking do not do the same things to the brain that street drugs do. People who do sickening things to get drugs are not necessarily bad people. There may be good people and bad people in this world but not every street addict is a bad person. They are not all people who grew up homeless and out on the street shooting up. A lot of these people are you and I, people who would never do such things under any other circumstances and could never imagine doing these things prior to addiction. These people are not showing their true colors when they are lying, stealing, or beating. We see their true colors prior to this addiction not during. Like cinnamonstix mentioned, her daughter remembers her father as the strong, wonderful man he is that would swoop her up as a child. That is who he is and that is not a bad person. That is an everyday person who became addicted to a drug that has "fried" his brain so badly, altered the chemistry of his brain and spinal cord, changed the person he really is because of the things he has to do to get the drug. This is a man who would never have put his daughter in danger otherwise.
Yes it is true that there are genetic components to addiction and even genetic markers for predisposition to certain types of drugs. This does not mean it will happen, it is just more likely to happen if drugs enter the system. And please do not mis-understand, I am not in any way saying that presription drugs cannot be dangerous and fatal like illicit drugs. However, even though prescription drug abuse in the US has limed to near the rate of marijuana use and abuse, still over half of hospital admissions were due to illicit drug use. Deaths caused by illicit drug use are even higher than this and the damage to the brain is much greater, greater even than those who immensely abuse prescription drugs. Damage to the brain due to illicit drug use can often not be reversed and if it can it is still not quite the way it was. Example-ecstasy: Increases serotonin so much that it eventually kills the fibers on the serotonin produsing neurons and even if these neurons are regenerated they will not regenerare properly and will not function the same. Prozac greatly increases serotonin, ultram increases it also, just not in the was that ecstasy does.
Beachtowel: I am very curious about your take on something if you don't mind. After physical dependency develops and we know we need the drug in order to avoid withdrawal, lets say the addictive behaviors now follow. How much of these addictive behaviors is a "choice"? Would you say that these behaviors are in full a choice that we have absolute control over? Or would you say these behaviors are only in our control in part? I ask you because I know from reading your posts that you have not only been there but been in it and experienced the street drug life for yourself and came out of it an intelligent person who can express their views clearly. I'd appreciate it.
xoxo- D.
The body has a hierarchy of needs. The fight or flight response is a perfect example. If you are in immediate danger the body uses all of its energies to prepare to flee quickly or confront the danger. The digestive tract shuts down, heart rate increases, epinephrine jolts to amazing levels. If you haven't eaten in days, your stomach is not going to be bothering you for food. However if you are safe and out of harms way, the digestive tract is working and sending you signals that you need to eat. Food is a necessity, it just isn't a necessity at a time when you are in immediate danger. Someone withdrawing from crack, meth, or heroin- their body needs the drug to function. The body needs food and shelter, and safety but in withdrawal the body needs the drug above any of those and focuses its energies to that.
The opiates in the pills most of us here take or are taking do not do the same things to the brain that street drugs do. People who do sickening things to get drugs are not necessarily bad people. There may be good people and bad people in this world but not every street addict is a bad person. They are not all people who grew up homeless and out on the street shooting up. A lot of these people are you and I, people who would never do such things under any other circumstances and could never imagine doing these things prior to addiction. These people are not showing their true colors when they are lying, stealing, or beating. We see their true colors prior to this addiction not during. Like cinnamonstix mentioned, her daughter remembers her father as the strong, wonderful man he is that would swoop her up as a child. That is who he is and that is not a bad person. That is an everyday person who became addicted to a drug that has "fried" his brain so badly, altered the chemistry of his brain and spinal cord, changed the person he really is because of the things he has to do to get the drug. This is a man who would never have put his daughter in danger otherwise.
Yes it is true that there are genetic components to addiction and even genetic markers for predisposition to certain types of drugs. This does not mean it will happen, it is just more likely to happen if drugs enter the system. And please do not mis-understand, I am not in any way saying that presription drugs cannot be dangerous and fatal like illicit drugs. However, even though prescription drug abuse in the US has limed to near the rate of marijuana use and abuse, still over half of hospital admissions were due to illicit drug use. Deaths caused by illicit drug use are even higher than this and the damage to the brain is much greater, greater even than those who immensely abuse prescription drugs. Damage to the brain due to illicit drug use can often not be reversed and if it can it is still not quite the way it was. Example-ecstasy: Increases serotonin so much that it eventually kills the fibers on the serotonin produsing neurons and even if these neurons are regenerated they will not regenerare properly and will not function the same. Prozac greatly increases serotonin, ultram increases it also, just not in the was that ecstasy does.
Beachtowel: I am very curious about your take on something if you don't mind. After physical dependency develops and we know we need the drug in order to avoid withdrawal, lets say the addictive behaviors now follow. How much of these addictive behaviors is a "choice"? Would you say that these behaviors are in full a choice that we have absolute control over? Or would you say these behaviors are only in our control in part? I ask you because I know from reading your posts that you have not only been there but been in it and experienced the street drug life for yourself and came out of it an intelligent person who can express their views clearly. I'd appreciate it.
xoxo- D.
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You of allpeople should realize that an addict is an addict. An addcition is an addiction. If someone addicted to prescription drugs never has sex for drugs or robs an old woman at gunpoint that's great but at their worst ask them what they've done to get their DOC. Ask them how many lies they told, how many people they've let down..... Any one of us who claims that we were only hurting ourselves when we were in our living rooms spending our last dollar on pills is a fool.
I agree with you about the fact that "street" drug aaddicts are more prone to be involved in violence etc. BUT at the core, at the very heart of addiction, I am no different than that guy and if I convince myself that I am, well I am doing myself a grand injustice. No one addict or addiction is better or safer than anotherrgery IS different than someone with an addictive behavior. I was an alcoholic, I am sober from coke and alcohol for 5 yers now.... then I needed to take prescription drugs and now I am hooked. I have an addictive personality. I knew that going in. It's no surprise that I have yet another addiction.
Even in the Big Book of AA, and you should be aware of this Dutchess, there are differennt types of alcoholics and I believe there are different types of addicts.
There are thos who just drink alot, I couple them with those who use drugs recreationally a little too much and who might have some problems associated with their drug use but never rewally enough to stop. Then there are the drinkers / addicts who do have reprecutions from their usage and they stop... .sometimes they need help, sometime they stop on their own. BUt then there are those people who are addicts to the very core of their soul. he people that get addicted to everything they touch... coffee, cigs, pills, the drink, drugs.... that's me. Those people are beyond human aid. those people need help in a way that this forum or even you can provide. If you ask me the only one who can save them is God. I'm not about to start a God debate but it's about surrendering and when you re that type of person, you need to surrender your will because obviously what you're doing isn't working..
In AA I sat for years and listened to the alcoholic who lost their house, their job, lived on the streets, went to jail, ran someone over, hell even those who had to go to rehab, cause I didn't go to rehab..... and I would notice the differences between me and them. Just because I haven't done those things in the throws of my addiction, doesn't mean I won't. It doesn't mean I am not capable of it. Those are my yets.
I truly believe that if you are an addict, a REAL addict, there are no differences.
If a person is a real addict and they are in the throws of their addiction, not much of it is choice, IMO. When you are in that place youu lose the ability to think it throughno matter how bad the consequences might be. Even if you got beat up getting drugs the week before or your husband found out the day before and swore he would leave you, you do it anyway, so what person in their right mind would CHOOSE that. The addiction makes the choice for you. It's only when you recognize you have a problem, surrender and get help that you begin to have the ability to think it through. Of course there are those whi will always say **** it and do it anyway but the average person would never in a normal state choose the drugs over a family member or food for their family or a marraige..... Addiction makes that "choice" for us.
And I just wanted to touch on one more thing. I read your posts and obviously you're well versed but you seem to speak a lot about what the drugs to do our brain and us physically as a whole...... I see addiction as an affliction ot the spirit and soul as well. Until we work on the reasons why we look to outside sources for happiness and enjoyment, we willn ever be well.
I don't know if you read the other two threads by lizzie lou and cinnamonstix all the way through but this posy can easily be taken out of context if not.
xoxo- D.
I have never done those drugs, well ok, that's a lie, I was heavily into coke for years but I have a lot of yets with that. I have friends who would sleep with men for it and wind up in strange houses in horrible neighborhoods to get it. I had standards LOL. For some reason I enjoyes my coke alone andwould always get it and go home. I am an only child and do not like to share! hahahah BUT, the things my friends did are all my yets......
And just to add another twist to this story there were no arrests made my last night out, no car accidents, no divorce, no eviction... I just woke up from a nght out that was no better or worse than any other night, in fact it might have very well been a lot tamer than previous episodes, and looked into a mirror and said "today is the day I am getting help or I am going to kill myself".... I got help. That was 5 years ago and although I have a pill issues it started like most because of legitimate pain.... but I will not denyit was stupid of me to think that i woldn't fall victim to this addiction no matter how many years of sobriety I had behind me. So how's that for making a conscience choice??
Yoda
:)
let me explain where this came from.
when i first came to this forum several months ago...i was kind of shunned at first. it was like this was a forum for "pill addicts"...they were the elite of addicts...as a matter of fact, they didn't even like to call themselves addicts...they were just addicted to pain pills. oh they had their excuses..."i didn't do this to myself...the doctor did"..."i had legitimate pain"..."i am not like a street drug user"..."i JUST do prescription pills". i posted a question to beachtowel asking about the mind of an addict...one addicted to crystal meth...and how someone could put those ingredients into their body...i was jumped on to say the least...not by beach but by others. it was like "how dare you come in here and invade our pill addicted forum".
being the mother of three addicted sons...i was very curious to find out all i could about addiction...so...they didn't run me off. as a matter of fact...little by little i began to see a change. i think it was marce who was the first to come on and admit that she was an addict...no better than the addict who buys her drugs off the street...just a different drug of choice. then all of a sudden, ppl began to follow suit. the stories began to pour...about how they too had had to resort to hitting the streets for their drugs...stealing money from loved ones...writing bad checks...fake visits to the ER...doctor shopping...spending money on pills that was needed for their children and their families...and the list went on and on. i saw a huge change here...a much needed one at that. what really impressed me was when they finally admitted that THEY were the ones who took too many pills...even when they KNEW that it was beyond pain management...for the high...
so i guess what i was asking about in the post was...do you feel that you are BETTER than a street drug user because your drug of choice is a prescribed pill?
If you think somehow that because your drug of choice is pills and not crack and that somehow you're "better" you are not ready to stop and have not comes to the real terms of your addiction.
:)
However, some people can just stop and never look back. Those people are not addicts at their core. Like I mentioned earlier there are all sorts of users but not all will be addicts. The addict doesn'tn eed to be addicted to a drug perse, they can be addicted to shopping, cigarettes, anything.... it's a way of focusing all your attention and strength on something other than twhat is really going on with you and until you find out what that is and get to know yourself again, you will never be whole.
When you decide you've had enough, when you've decided you're sick and tired of being sick and tired, you can stop.
MDMA affects serotonergic neurons in the brain and the axon terminals of each cell release serotonin into the synapse and gets received by the dendrites of the next neuron and then comes in contact with and attaches to receptors on the dendrite of another cell causing a chemical message to be sent to the cell body (this part is too long to type out right now) so I'll just say that based on the information collected from all receptor sites, the cell body decised whether or not to fire an electrical impulse down its axon. A certain amount of binding is necessary for the neuron to fire and if it does, there is a release of neurotransmitters into the synapses of other neurons (in this case, serotonin).Along with the receptors on the dendrite, serotonin molecules also bond with "reuptake transporters" on the axon's membrane. The transporters are responsible for reducing the amount of serotonin in the synapse if the cell body decides that there is enough receptor binding.
What MDMA does:
When MDMA is present in the brain, enormous amounts of serotonin is released into the synapse which creates serotonin receptor binding which causes changes in the electrical impulses sent throughout the brain. MDMA also causes serotonin that has been removed from the synapse by the reputake transporters to be re-released from the axon, and the cell body becomes overwhelmed with serotonin. It flows freely into the receptors and is recycled over and over again. This alteration in normal brain function produces the effects associated with MDMA. which begins to work on the brain after 20 to 40 minutes, with the peak effects after the first hour. After a few more hours, the MDMA begins being broken down by the body and reputake transporters resume normal functioning. They usually remove much of the serotonin from the synapse after approximately three hours, although there is still enough present to maintain the feeling of the full effects. However, most of the serotonin will be gone by the end of the fourth hour. The enzyme "monoamine oxidase" is also present in the brain and helps breakdown serotonin.
There are now fewer activated receptors because so much serotonin has been released in the past few hours that most of the supply in the brain has been depleted. At this point, there might be even less serotonin circulating than before the MDMA was introduced. Chosing to take more MDMA at this point might help "coming down", but eventually the drug will have no effect at all b/c there is no serotonin left in the entire brain. Serotonin levels might remain depleted for up to two weeks while the brain rebuilds its supply.
The period of recovery after taking MDMA:
Perpetually lowered serotonin levels have been proven to cause depression. If MDMA is present in the brain on a regular basis, serotonin is never fully replenished before it is released all at once again. Normally, it takes a long time for the brain to produce new serotonin (Another complicated series of metabolic reactions too long to type here). The process does not normally need to be accelerated because the brain would never release such large quantities of serotonin without the influence of MDMA. As a result, when levels are depleted so rapidly, the brain needs time to recover. This is when depression is experienced.
Long Term Damage:
One current theory is that MDMA is a neurotoxin, meaning it causes permanent brain damage and psychiatric disorders later in life. Studies have shown that MDMA degenerates the serotonin axons of lab animals. So far, studies of frequent human users have shown reduced brain serotonin levels and reduced serotonin uptak due to damaging the terminals of neuron fibers. Being part stimulant, MDMA acts on the brain's hypothalamus. It increases heart rate and blood pressure and disrupts the brain's ability to regulate body temperature. The body sweats and the extreme loss of water causes dehydration One example of how MDMA had caused death (even in a first time user) is its effects on the heart by being part stimulant causing hyperthermia often a fatal heart reaction.
Even that is simplified and it just isn't feasable to type all of that in an international internet forum simply to get the point across that MDMA increases serotonin just like cocaine increases dopamine.
xoxo- D.
i received an email from a forum friend of mine...who rarely posts here anymore. she is someone who wants to quit...talks the talk...but has yet to committ to doing something about it. you can hear the desperation through her words...but as she states herself...she cannot walk the walk.
i told her a story about my son christian. i can't count the times that my son has come to me after a meth binge...thrown himself on my couch or the floor...screaming and crying that he wanted to quit...that he was so tired of doing it. i would hold this son of mine in my arms...wipe away his tears...and then kick his ass out the door as fast as i could. why you ask? how could you be so cruel? because words aren't enough...talk the talk. all this son of mine had to do was to SHOW me, by his actions, that he was ready. all he needed to do was to start the process...not necessarily just stop the addiction...but start taking the steps to stop...changing friends...attending meetings...rehab...therapy...whatever...just walk the walk. then, and ony then...would i support him in recovery.
this is truly how i feel...i'm not going to baby an addict and say poor, poor baby...how could this happen to such a wonderful person...i am not an enabler. but what i am is your biggest supporter...you won't find a bigger fan...once you start walking the walk.
huggs,
kim
Heroin, Crack, and Meth are the top three most addictive meds on our planet today but that is not to say that the numerous others around including narcotic pain pills are not serious and deadly......
The addict has no choice to answer your question!
The person who takes drugs for the first time has a choice.........
Once the addicts brain has been stimulated he lays with the devil and will listen to him and all the suductions and lies like there gospel.....
Insanity in the addicts world:
To start using drugs again expecting a different result........its that simple..
In 2003 I discovered through the internet that with a Mastercard I could order narcotic pills directly from Costa Rica and then use a second Fortune 500 company to bring them right to my door. Imagine that an addict who can legally do this that is till George Bush stopped it January 1st 2005....
But what he didn't know is that is your were a prior customer these companies in Costa Rica were also aware of the US laws but because of the prior business could still do business as usual.......
I won't tell war stories and tell you how much I ordered every other day for two years but I expect logically you could have a pretty good idea.......
The problem is my weight dropped from 180 lbs to 118 lbs when I crashed and burned by the way I am 6' tall....
Dutchess when an addict is in full blown addiction this person is capable of anything and as you have said the brain changes in many ways......so does
lifestyles..........
I hope I was able to answer your questions by the way I am free for that Cabo San Lucas vacation......lol
And you mentioned that I talked a lot about the neurological effects of the drugs and that is what I was going for, the angle from which I was approaching my post, as the brain regulates everything our bodies do and the damage to the brain results in a much larger risk of adopting dangerous addictive behaviors and abnormal thinking processes. My posts are too long-winded as it is, no one would have read all of it had I gone into the spiritual/emotional and cognitive parts of addiction. I replied to a post from beachtowel last night about that. The physical dependence- that's nothing to get over compared to the addiction itself because it's the addiction where behavioral, cognitive, spiritual, emotional aspects really come in. And where you have to work on coping skills in every aspect of your life because the drug was every aspect of your life, now that has to be replaced- see, I'm already getting started LOL
I'm gonna stop there, I promise
xoxo- D.
The Golden Dutchess "borrowed" her explanation of "What MDMA does" from Emily Senerth, "a student at the time the paper was written for a course at Bryn Mawr College." It was her first paper for Biology 103, written in 2002.
see http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/biology/b103/f02/web1/esenerth.html
This seems to beg the question: Why would someone with two undergrad degrees, a masters (or two), two Ph.D.'s, a private practice, and a long history of research and publication on "you name it," steal words from a college freshman's five year old paper?
You should be a criminal trial defense lawyer you would be the best the world has ever seen and the richest too.........lol
Nice to hear from you again.........I love it..........
You said at one point you were down to 118 lbs. and you are 6', I remember being with one of my best friends for weeks at a time for years addicted to heroin, taking 30-40 somas in a day and how ever many xanax he could get his hands on when he didn't have drugs. Holding him while he convulsed, curled up in the fetal position in the corner of the shower with blood everywhere, puking and shitting himself at 6'5 and 130 pounds. The most important thing to me every day was to watch him take his next breath, I have no idea how many times he OD'd-it was a lot. But I also remember that he wouldn't see anyone else but me. I was the only one not yelling and preaching at him that he was stupid and killing himself and had to get clean-that's a foreign language to an addict. I was just there, we watched TV, I did my homework, I fed him as much as I could get him to eat, I guess you could say I just loved him and prayed for him until one day when he decided he wanted to go back to rehab-clean to this day! We went to school together since preschool, hardly spent a day apart, so I knew who he was, the real him. And now I have that person back. It's one of the most beautiful things. Obviously I love to see it with my patients but obviously it's so different when it's personal, and you're that connected to someone. ANyway, there I went rambling again!!!
So..Cabo....I'll make arrangements you take care of the food??? hehe
I have heard it is the most beautiful place on earth and I will go one of these days.......
30-40 Somas a day plus plus............"Frigging Wow"
I thought I had a huge tolereance......
I commend you on looking at a 6'5" man 135lbs puking and shitting himself in the shower and not being repulsed and leaving him to die........
That takes a special person,,,,I too have walked people that shot way to much dope and OD....
The amazing thing is when they did come out of it all they would say is I did to much and the dope was great lets go and and get some more...
I have woke up in the hospial out of a drug induced coma three times..
I have been told I fell had a Seizure and then went into a coma......
The longest was three days.........the previous two was 18 and 22 hours.......
I was slurring really bad when I first got up but was fully aware of my surroundings.......
I am trying to transfer to U of D Mercy in Detroit I have both fingers crossed that they will except me.......
I want my CAC and hopefully CAC1 License, and I would love to be a speaker for addiction in the hopes to change the way of public opinion that that taking drugs is a choice and not a disease a huge misconception........
You are either real and everything you say your are or.....
your an addict that believes her own lies which have become distored truths..
Without facts I keep an open mind.......
I'll tell you one thing Tab-Dog is like a pitbull who hasn't eaten in weeks, if your lies can be verified the Tab-Dog will find them......
He reminds me of a counselor who took an interest in me at a 6 month behavior modification inpatient rehab that a judge sent me to he dogged me to death god I hated him but when I got home I sent him a 7 page letter thanking him for changing me back into the man I could be proud of again.....
I think the Judge I went in front of even though very scary was an angel who knew a sheep was totally lost and could not find himself his way home anymore and needed guidence.......
This Judge had 6 felonies in front of him and could of given me 10 yrs in prison and decided to send me to a 6 month behavior inpatient rehab and drug rehab.......
Hey Angels are scary too........
xoxo- D.
The point is, if you don't like me or what I have to say then leave me alone. Those that I don't care for, I ignore their posts, I do not take every opportunity that I see their name come up to harrass someone. Even during the time I abused my meds I never lied to anyone, my husband and my parents and all of my friends knew, I never tried to keep it from anyone. Even in addiction I was an incredibly open and honest person as I always have been and as I am now.
Your counselor, makes me think of a few students in particular when I was counseling Jr. High. There are a couple that I still talk to to this day. They were stubborn, defiant etc etc I'm sure you know the drill.
Anyhow, it's difficult for someone who meets me in person to believe everything about me until they get to know me, so obviously over the internet this is what some people are going to do. Yes I get angry sometimes, I hate, hate, hate lies! So naturally as a human being, being accused off that is going **** me off sometimes, but these are people who will probably never meet me and based on many of the things said, might not even be old enough to be on this forum. Who knows.
xoxo- D.
How many lines do you have to cross to become a street person?