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Suboxone controversy and some information. . .
Last Thursday when I was home from work sick, I watched Dr. Phil and it was about addiction. It was an extremely enlightening episode. It taught me a lot about why therapists and especially those who work with helping people to become free of addiction.
I know that Suboxone has been a subject that has been debated here so many times and that some disagree with its use. However, I found out more about why they prescribe this medication (at least the experts anyway). The expert Dr. Phil had on explained that many doctors do not know how to prescribe Suboxone and/or why they do it. Some doctors use it to alleviate withdrawal symptoms, but that’s not the real purpose of the drug.
Apparently, when someone has abused drugs or any substance for too long, it damages the brain. Because of that damage, it’s so important to have aftercare or else 1 in 2 people will relapse. I’m just repeating what they discussed. Suboxone is actually used to help heal the brain not to help with withdrawal. So, let’s say you’ve been on Oxys for 8 years and you suddenly decide to stop. The cold turkey withdrawals will suck but won’t do much damage. They said you’re going along doing great but you can’t beat the need to take the drug. This doctor explained that it’s because the brain has been damaged and our natural endorphins no longer work. What Sub will do is allow you to quit your drug of choice until the brain heals. It’s once the brain heals that the Sub is then gradually reduced. Yes, it will cause discomfort like withdrawal, but it does not damage the brain the same as other opiates. Unfortunately, you MUST find an expert in this field so that the doctor is prescribing it the correct way.
They also talked a lot about various aftercare programs. NA is a wonderful way to receive support, individual therapy as well as being monitored by a doctor. If they deem it necessary that your brain is damaged that’s when Sub should come in.
Anyway, I just thought I’d share what I heard. I don’t know if this will help anyone out there – but it was quite an eye-opener. It looks like the key is finding the right expert to help!
So, my mind has been changed on the use of Sub for people. I was never against it, but did not understand the purpose. My thought was if it was only for withdrawal and then you’d go through withdrawal again, then what would the point be. But, this explanation helps me to understand the importance.
If anyone has not seen this program, you can go to Dr. Phil’s website and purchase the transcript. I’m not affiliated with his show, but really thought this might help those who have wanted to use Sub but did not understand what it could do. Remember, it is prescribed long-term to help heal the brain and once that happens, then they wean you off the Sub.
I hope nobody finds offense to this post – I’m just trying to help. And, I’m not a doctor just repeating what I heard.
Good luck!
Hugs,
Janet
I know that Suboxone has been a subject that has been debated here so many times and that some disagree with its use. However, I found out more about why they prescribe this medication (at least the experts anyway). The expert Dr. Phil had on explained that many doctors do not know how to prescribe Suboxone and/or why they do it. Some doctors use it to alleviate withdrawal symptoms, but that’s not the real purpose of the drug.
Apparently, when someone has abused drugs or any substance for too long, it damages the brain. Because of that damage, it’s so important to have aftercare or else 1 in 2 people will relapse. I’m just repeating what they discussed. Suboxone is actually used to help heal the brain not to help with withdrawal. So, let’s say you’ve been on Oxys for 8 years and you suddenly decide to stop. The cold turkey withdrawals will suck but won’t do much damage. They said you’re going along doing great but you can’t beat the need to take the drug. This doctor explained that it’s because the brain has been damaged and our natural endorphins no longer work. What Sub will do is allow you to quit your drug of choice until the brain heals. It’s once the brain heals that the Sub is then gradually reduced. Yes, it will cause discomfort like withdrawal, but it does not damage the brain the same as other opiates. Unfortunately, you MUST find an expert in this field so that the doctor is prescribing it the correct way.
They also talked a lot about various aftercare programs. NA is a wonderful way to receive support, individual therapy as well as being monitored by a doctor. If they deem it necessary that your brain is damaged that’s when Sub should come in.
Anyway, I just thought I’d share what I heard. I don’t know if this will help anyone out there – but it was quite an eye-opener. It looks like the key is finding the right expert to help!
So, my mind has been changed on the use of Sub for people. I was never against it, but did not understand the purpose. My thought was if it was only for withdrawal and then you’d go through withdrawal again, then what would the point be. But, this explanation helps me to understand the importance.
If anyone has not seen this program, you can go to Dr. Phil’s website and purchase the transcript. I’m not affiliated with his show, but really thought this might help those who have wanted to use Sub but did not understand what it could do. Remember, it is prescribed long-term to help heal the brain and once that happens, then they wean you off the Sub.
I hope nobody finds offense to this post – I’m just trying to help. And, I’m not a doctor just repeating what I heard.
Good luck!
Hugs,
Janet
this is a great post. this is exactly what Masons doctor told him about. the healing factor behind it is what made him decide to start on the treatment. his suboxone doctor is a psychiatrist who specializes in addiction. Mason also made the decision or the commitment rather, to being on it for life. its as if the suboxone not only keeps him off opiates\ but doesnt crave any drugs now. Mason used to try and get high off anything at all now he doesnt even think of any. he has actually improved in his hand eye coordination, he no longer needs glasses while reading, and he seems to have a much better memory. i dont know if its just from being off the heroin or if its a combo or the two. all i know is that it saved his life. and i would say mine too, even though im not on sub, if Mason was not doing so well i wouldnt have made it this far...he has ben my rock since we started down recovery road.. the one thing i will say though is that it totally makes a difference depending on the doctor and having a TOTAL recovery plan, including therapy and/or meetings. i will also say that i think suboxone is over prescribed. i dont think it should be used unless its literally your last choice- life or death type thing... thats just my opinion.
*Kristen*
*Kristen*
I wrote the following post in early March 2009 . To this day my daughter is doing incredible in so many ways. Does she have hard days YES Does she crave and still have dreams of using YES Does she love going to aftercare and NA/AA daily NO but most importantly Has she relapsed in anyway NO Is her Suboxone dose monitored carefully by her doctor reduced on a very small scale monthy YES Suboxone has not made it a cake walk, but it certainly has given hope after a bazillion relapses. Please know we checked out all doctors their knowledge of suboxone and addiction in minute detail. It was not a hasty decision,
I am the mom of an oxy addict, she had everything in control and everyone fooled until her addiction got way out of control. Rather than being able to smoke/rail oxy just in the morn and at night, she needed to use several times a day. Working for a bank and going to college doesnt really facilitate constant use, or what her body needed due to the tolerance she had built up. She ended up with nothing. She has been thru rehab 2 times, addiction couselors, psychiatrists, CT with an addiction specialist, IOP with a psychiatrist..... the list is endless as is the number of times she relapsed. The physical of W/D was not the problem, she is pretty strong... but the mental aspect was a completely different situation. SHe relapsed so many times I can't tell you, normally at the 2 week period after W/D. It is not for me to judge or to recommend what treatment is right or wrong, it is an individual decision one makes after a lot of research and education on their specific addiction. For my daughter, she did go on Suboxone, 3 weeks prior to entering in patient rehab again, her 3rd time in rehab, this time tho she focused and no one begged her to stay, which was a first. She completed in-patient and now is in IOP classes 3 times a week 3 hours per session. In addition she attends 4 NA mtgs per week. Also for the first time she sought out and has had a sponsor in NA for several weeks. For her the Sub has allowed her to not only accept but to embrace and follow thru with the help she has been offered. This decision was made after exhausting all other avenues for her over the last few years. To simply say you are "trading a drug for a drug" is way too judgemental in my humble opinion. If that were the case with my child, she would still be out of work, out of school, out of control, stealing anyone around her blind and manipulating and lying. Her life is on the right track for the first time in a very long time. but this has not been an easy journey, nor were any decisions made without a great deal of research.
I can only recommend you read as much as you can, talk to some professionals, and get help SOON as the destruction of drug addiction will only get worse and take you to places you never imagined possible. I wish for you to find the answers you are searching and recovery.
Fast forward to May. Today she attends IOP one day a week, still NA/AA daily,,,,,,,, has a good job, going to college, is an incredible child that I am so fortunate to say is my daughter. No relapses, only forward acomplishments......... her life is for the first time in 2 yrs in contol,
That is our story.......... please research everything you can to ensure you have the treatment program that will take you into sobriety, THere are alot of different options available, Lord knows we have done so very many......... never give up,
I am the mom of an oxy addict, she had everything in control and everyone fooled until her addiction got way out of control. Rather than being able to smoke/rail oxy just in the morn and at night, she needed to use several times a day. Working for a bank and going to college doesnt really facilitate constant use, or what her body needed due to the tolerance she had built up. She ended up with nothing. She has been thru rehab 2 times, addiction couselors, psychiatrists, CT with an addiction specialist, IOP with a psychiatrist..... the list is endless as is the number of times she relapsed. The physical of W/D was not the problem, she is pretty strong... but the mental aspect was a completely different situation. SHe relapsed so many times I can't tell you, normally at the 2 week period after W/D. It is not for me to judge or to recommend what treatment is right or wrong, it is an individual decision one makes after a lot of research and education on their specific addiction. For my daughter, she did go on Suboxone, 3 weeks prior to entering in patient rehab again, her 3rd time in rehab, this time tho she focused and no one begged her to stay, which was a first. She completed in-patient and now is in IOP classes 3 times a week 3 hours per session. In addition she attends 4 NA mtgs per week. Also for the first time she sought out and has had a sponsor in NA for several weeks. For her the Sub has allowed her to not only accept but to embrace and follow thru with the help she has been offered. This decision was made after exhausting all other avenues for her over the last few years. To simply say you are "trading a drug for a drug" is way too judgemental in my humble opinion. If that were the case with my child, she would still be out of work, out of school, out of control, stealing anyone around her blind and manipulating and lying. Her life is on the right track for the first time in a very long time. but this has not been an easy journey, nor were any decisions made without a great deal of research.
I can only recommend you read as much as you can, talk to some professionals, and get help SOON as the destruction of drug addiction will only get worse and take you to places you never imagined possible. I wish for you to find the answers you are searching and recovery.
Fast forward to May. Today she attends IOP one day a week, still NA/AA daily,,,,,,,, has a good job, going to college, is an incredible child that I am so fortunate to say is my daughter. No relapses, only forward acomplishments......... her life is for the first time in 2 yrs in contol,
That is our story.......... please research everything you can to ensure you have the treatment program that will take you into sobriety, THere are alot of different options available, Lord knows we have done so very many......... never give up,
Imagine!! A sub thread that has had no mention of bashing or hiring the Sopranos for an evening. Its really nice to have a discussion with people that may hold different ideas than yours......... but that are intelligent enough people to speak back with freedom and not a bit of B$ ...... LIKE MANY MEDICINES......some just dont work well for others - I am allegic to penicillin and am told that it would kill me the next time anyone tried it on me - - - does that mean that I should decline all antibiotics? I think not.
The best treatment for our brains to properly heal is with time, until it starts producing endorphins and its natural amount of dopamine or norepinephrine. Ive never really heard the argument that sub has any healing affects and Im not sure if I believe that because of what RB said, the brain is still being flooded with buprenorphine regardless of the dose your on. The main problem I see with sub is it's over-prescribed and many too many people are started on higher doses than need be. One other concern I have is about some of the doctors who tell people that because its only a partial agonist that there isnt any physical withdrawals, thats total bs. Now my own experience with sub was fairly positive but I still think it should be used as a last resort option. I would for sure use sub way before methadone for replacement therapy, but I dont buy the fact that sub has any healing abilities. Im not a doctor so who knows, honestly I really dont think 90% of them know either. Hopefully in time we can all learn more about suboxone and how and when it should be used, until then were going to have a wide array of difference in the experience one has when they come off sub. Oh yeah, buprenorphine does bind to your opiate receptors, its what blocks other opiates from having any effect. Many people believe that the naloxone is what blocks opiates but when sub is taken correctly the 99% of the naloxone isnt absorbed into our bodies.
I'd love to see proof of the "brain healing" thing as well. That part doesn't fully make sense to me either, especially considering you go thru the same mental process coming off sub as you do coming off your doc?? maybe it's just partial healing?? I dunno, that confuses me too. Buprenorphine has been around for awhile but for uses other than drug addiction recovery so the medical community is still learning about that aspect even as we post here. Same thing with brain function and receptors in general - learning more every day. So I suppose every different stance out there could potentially be right or wrong. Suboxone in and of itself can be very helpful for lots of us - I tried to get off heroin for years and never could until sub. My problem is I knew nothing about it when I started it and neither did my doctor. IMO if there were more accurate information provided and more discrimination was used when prescribing the results wouldn't be so widely varied. Outotown makes a great point - those of us that employed the use of sub in addition to other therapeutic factors seem to have made "more progress" than those poor souls who think sub will "fix" them. I guess the bottom line is that accurate information needs to be more widespread so people can make wise choices.
p.s. I love that no one has bashed anyone on this thread... :)
p.s. I love that no one has bashed anyone on this thread... :)
outotown:
That's what I understood from the doctor on the show. I think it goes back to not only taking the Sub but getting the proper therapy and ongoing support, which is what we all need anyway.
That's what I understood from the doctor on the show. I think it goes back to not only taking the Sub but getting the proper therapy and ongoing support, which is what we all need anyway.
PS you dont get high on the proper dose of sub, therefore your brain is in the healing process!!!
The out come of using Sub, has a lot to do with your Dr and your honesty with yourself and your dr. Sub is ment to be a long term treatment, and when seen regulay by a good Sub DR your overall health is exaimed every month. Also most peole who use has depression or goes into depression soon after get'n off the drugs. My sub Dr is a shrink, a Pcicaritrist spellin over look it. So while being treated with sub i was being treated for everything from high blood presure to addiction and recieving counsleing all by the same Dr. Sub does not cling to your recieptors it cleans your recieptors. When sub is used right under the right kinda of Dr along with being treated for everything by one Dr it works.
agree that sub has some great uses..if used by someone who really wants to get clean...and it is also much better than the alternative of using illegally etc...I agree with refusing tho on the "brain healing" stuff...dont see how the brain can start making all its own endorphins with sub stuck all over the receptors cos the brain isnt gonna produce til forced to do it..and that is by not feeding the brain an opiate I would think...I have read that PAWS is caused from wd...so if u withdraw from sub then paws would still be a culprit it would seem...my dr uses it for people who r not addicts but who r just dependent and has better results than with those who r addicts...if someone has been on long term heavy narcotics it is a much nicer and easier way to quit //these people do not have the urge to abuse sub tho nor the mental addiction that an addict has....dunno...i do know that some woulda never made it without sub..and some could curse the day they laid eyes on it cos they were misinformed.....i think there will always be disagreements over it as everyone is different..some addicts can use sub and get well..some physically dependent people can use sub and not have wd syptoms when their need for narcotics diminishes...taper off and never have a wd symptom to really complain about...some get stuck on it and begin to feel like it i their DOC and have the same longing to be clean from sub as an oxy user longs to be free of oxy......then there r some who had the worst sub wd experience in their life...to each his own as long as every patient knows the facts
Excellent post! I was on Sub, and hated the experience. The withdrawals were pure hell. To this day I do not think I should have been on it long term, but I learned a valuable lesson!
I do believe Suboxone is a very good choice for some. Many heroin addicts have been able to get their lives back because of it. And someday they will have to come off Suboxone, but at least they have a chance.
As mom_of_two says, it gives people a chance to get their life in order.
I do believe Suboxone is a very good choice for some. Many heroin addicts have been able to get their lives back because of it. And someday they will have to come off Suboxone, but at least they have a chance.
As mom_of_two says, it gives people a chance to get their life in order.
I just know for me, I could not stay away from opiates. Just kept going back. What suboxone gives is time to get your life back together and prepare you for life without drugs. Sure some people can CT and then get there life back together. More power to them. But for some it is not possible for whatever reason. I could not think clearly and was is such misery. I needed to relieve the WD's so I could start working on my life (get support, new group of friends, get my head screwed on straight). I could not have done all that after I would CT off the opiates I took. Sure I was drug free (for a short time) but all my addicted thinking was still there and would consume me (this is just me and maybe others). For those of us who just kept relapsing, suboxone saved our lives.
I know there are many upset people out there and blame the suboxone. The problem is the misinformed doctors. I have several friends who have successfully came off of suboxone. Not saying it was easy. You just need information from those who have done it before you. Everyone is different but there seems to be similarities in all the stories I have heard. Slowly weaning off, listen to your body, and keep working your recovery program (AA/NA, support groups, ...). Maybe with Dr Phil talking about this issue more doctors will be better informed. Suboxone can really save lives to some and it is good that it is being talked about.
I know there are many upset people out there and blame the suboxone. The problem is the misinformed doctors. I have several friends who have successfully came off of suboxone. Not saying it was easy. You just need information from those who have done it before you. Everyone is different but there seems to be similarities in all the stories I have heard. Slowly weaning off, listen to your body, and keep working your recovery program (AA/NA, support groups, ...). Maybe with Dr Phil talking about this issue more doctors will be better informed. Suboxone can really save lives to some and it is good that it is being talked about.
I Don't care what the experts or Dr. Phil say, I think Suboxone is just another way for the Drug Companies to use the Dr.s as their pushers. Give me a break. the WD from
Suboxone is terrible, No one told me that. Not my Dr. The Drug Company, No one. I was told it would be a smoother withdrawal. If this is smooth..., well you know.
I not bitching about what I got myself into, only the fact that these drug companies continue to produce new medicines and push them on the dr.s and users who end up paying the price. I love Suboxones' radio commercials "Turn to Help". With friends like the Sub manufactures, who needs enemies.
Suboxone is terrible, No one told me that. Not my Dr. The Drug Company, No one. I was told it would be a smoother withdrawal. If this is smooth..., well you know.
I not bitching about what I got myself into, only the fact that these drug companies continue to produce new medicines and push them on the dr.s and users who end up paying the price. I love Suboxones' radio commercials "Turn to Help". With friends like the Sub manufactures, who needs enemies.
Thanks for the link! I will definitely watch it. Always interested in as much information as I can get.. (seems kind of too little too late now.. but that's ok lol)... I am not 100% completely anti-suboxone.. I pesonally have people in my life who I would love to see on it for sure.. but definitly think its mis-understood and overprescribed. I could never refute that its a better alternative than active addiction.
I agree there is a lot of mis-information concerning this..Ive heard it was originally used as anesthesia, a pain reliever and currently the samhsa.gov (US Dept of Health Services) website says "Buprenorphine prevents withdrawal symptoms so that a person can stop taking the opioid drug to which he or she is addicted."
Thanks Janet :)
I agree there is a lot of mis-information concerning this..Ive heard it was originally used as anesthesia, a pain reliever and currently the samhsa.gov (US Dept of Health Services) website says "Buprenorphine prevents withdrawal symptoms so that a person can stop taking the opioid drug to which he or she is addicted."
Thanks Janet :)
You're perfectly fine refusingbondage - you're the one who went and lived through it. I understand! I just never understood why the drug was even used before and it made some sense to me now.
Here's the link: http://www.drphil.com/slideshows/slideshow/5142/?id=5142&showID=1275
What I understood was that too many doctors are not prescribing this properly and have obviously not paid attention when learning about the drug and how to make it work for their patients. And, I'm sure it's not for everyone. It just helped me understand the reasoning behind it better. I'm not advocating or not - just thought it was useful information.
Here's the link: http://www.drphil.com/slideshows/slideshow/5142/?id=5142&showID=1275
What I understood was that too many doctors are not prescribing this properly and have obviously not paid attention when learning about the drug and how to make it work for their patients. And, I'm sure it's not for everyone. It just helped me understand the reasoning behind it better. I'm not advocating or not - just thought it was useful information.
That's pretty useful information. The thing I keep questioning whenever I hear the "heal the brain" theory is: If my brain is damaged from opiate abuse and I am incapable of producing endorphins/dopamine (whatever the clincial term is) because I've been abusing opiates, how is my brain 'healing' if I am continually feeding it an opiate (with a super long half life.. basically not allowing even a minute of any to be sub free) -- one even stronger than the original and one that binds tighter? When is it healing? How is it healing? I would love the scientific reasoning behind this.
To that respect what does 'Heal the brain' even mean? From the bottom of my heart, I promise I am not being argumentative - I am genuinely curious and wondering and am at a loss. If it truly heals people why the he11 didn't it heal me?? If suboxone was supposed to heal my brain then why do I still crave opiates to the point of relapsing in Dec/Jan? Why do I crave them all the time still 7 months later? Why did I suffer the worst depression and axiety of my life coming off suboxone as opposed to when I came off other opiates? Is it just me that had such a bad experience? Addictive behavior healed on subxone for sure, but physically I personally believe it had a much more negative effect on my brain than my other drug usage.
I've read information from doctors who oppose suboxone -- their views are exactly opposite. Its hard to know who to believe.. and so confusing for many. In one respect I know that suboxone helped me return to living a normal life - no drug seeking and got me use to not being high every day.. but in another respect I believe I could have done that on my own with the right amount of strength.. which is exactly what I needed to quit suboxone anyway.. I also believe the depression came directly from long term suboxone and it is still something I am dealing with - 7 months post suboxone..its just so difficult to find a doctor who can answer these questions.. (sorry just venting).
To that respect what does 'Heal the brain' even mean? From the bottom of my heart, I promise I am not being argumentative - I am genuinely curious and wondering and am at a loss. If it truly heals people why the he11 didn't it heal me?? If suboxone was supposed to heal my brain then why do I still crave opiates to the point of relapsing in Dec/Jan? Why do I crave them all the time still 7 months later? Why did I suffer the worst depression and axiety of my life coming off suboxone as opposed to when I came off other opiates? Is it just me that had such a bad experience? Addictive behavior healed on subxone for sure, but physically I personally believe it had a much more negative effect on my brain than my other drug usage.
I've read information from doctors who oppose suboxone -- their views are exactly opposite. Its hard to know who to believe.. and so confusing for many. In one respect I know that suboxone helped me return to living a normal life - no drug seeking and got me use to not being high every day.. but in another respect I believe I could have done that on my own with the right amount of strength.. which is exactly what I needed to quit suboxone anyway.. I also believe the depression came directly from long term suboxone and it is still something I am dealing with - 7 months post suboxone..its just so difficult to find a doctor who can answer these questions.. (sorry just venting).
Lucky for those of us that were messed up... lol
The negative reviews and stories of sub are due to the lack of properly guided treatment. I'm glad Dr. Phil had something useful on finally... lol Alot of people that don't know what sub's actual purpose is tend to crucify it and the people that take it. I'm an advocate for sub even tho my experience has been less than stellar... what needs to be changed is the lack of understanding and information within the addiction community as well as the medical community.
Dr. Jeff also has some great info on his blog as well...
The negative reviews and stories of sub are due to the lack of properly guided treatment. I'm glad Dr. Phil had something useful on finally... lol Alot of people that don't know what sub's actual purpose is tend to crucify it and the people that take it. I'm an advocate for sub even tho my experience has been less than stellar... what needs to be changed is the lack of understanding and information within the addiction community as well as the medical community.
Dr. Jeff also has some great info on his blog as well...
Great information! I was even told by our resident "expert" Dr. Jeff on the expert addiction forum that doctors go through a lot of training to get their license to prescibe sub ..... he also says that sub should be dosed once daily like a high blood prssure pill. He has no answer for the Docs that prescribe split doses, except they pobably didnt pay attention in class!! Good questions should be posted on the Expert Addiction Site and they will be answered by SubDoc Jeff....................there is a place for everything in medicine and sub will find its place after a few Docs mess up on some patients
Oh, I forgot to mention that the expert said that some people will have to be on Sub for a long, long time. He said it's like a diabetic who has to take insulin. If you knew it would make you better would you be willing to take it the rest of your life if necessary. Again, just repeating what I heard.
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