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THIS IS NO JOKE: If you're on Subutex, Methadone or Suboxone, GET ...
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THIS IS NO JOKE: If you're on Subutex, Methadone or Suboxone, GET OFF NOW!!!!!!!!

how come no doctors really know what the long term side effects and the many actual DAMAGEs to the body subutex does?? I stayed on it for about 10 years and it was the most HORRIFIC detox that I almost died. I encourage EVERYONE to (if you're already on it)-GET OFF OF IT, or you're just gonna make the detox harder and harder with time...and if you're thinking about getting PUT on it, THINK AGAIN!!!!! I would LOVE to go around EDUCATING DOCTORS about how HORRIBLE this medication is. I am about to face the dentist in an hour and am MORTIFIED to do so because I have METH-MOUTH. (funny thing is, I NEVER DID METH!!). It's ALL FROM SUBUTEX and how it just sits in your bones and builds up over time and seems to EAT away your bone marrow and rapes your body of calcium. And the refuse of medication that just sits rotting your bones makes a later "appearance" in the show whenever it is you decide to detox. That's when it comes PURGING out of every single pore of your body as well as through your TEETH!! (just like the bones in your body). It has been FOUR MONTHS and my body STILL aches UNIMAGINABLY, I am in a constant state of Incredibly INTENSE anxiety, frustration and impatience. I don't wanna EVER get out of bed and face the world, even though I Must...Feels like groundhog day because it never changes. I wake up everyday in intense agony. And all over my body my skin has broken out in "PLAGUE-like" Acne-some places CYSTIC. (my body is detoxifying from the outside in) I don't WANNA leave my house because I feel like a monster. like I'm CURSED. This medication is THE DEVIL. It NEVER WANTS U OFF OF IT, it grabs ahold of your SOUL and never EVER lets go. (until you get FORCED to(the law/jail)or you just get so SICK of taking a godamm PILL every morning just to feel like the rest of the human race does when they wake up. It is hell on Earth, and you are absolutely INSANE if you stay on this med after reading this!!! THIS IS NO JOKE!!!! Email me if you want me to GO ON even!! ***@****
52 Comments Post a Comment
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Avatar_m_tn
The reason they know little about the long term effects of buprenorphine is, there have never been long term studies done on it. The longest studies ever conducted where 6 months. We have been guinea pigs for the FDA and Pharms. Doctors take an 8 hr class, give a bunch of cash($10,000) here, and they can prescribe subs on any schedule they want. You must have gotten on subs as soon as they where made available in the U.S. They had less info then, and they still have very little info, no studies, no proof of effectiveness or side effects. I have a lot of anger and resentment toward the field of medicine as well, but I can't control what other people do. I realized that I was part of the problem, as long as I still used methadone and subs. Now, I try to be part of the solution and educate people about these drugs. i will help in any way I can.

So, are you getting off subs, detoxing now, or what? With a long, slow taper, you can minimize the symptoms of detox and good nutrients can help speed up the healing. Is there anything we can do to help or any info you are looking for?
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4522800_tn?1405696702
Hi I totally agree with you & weaver..I was on the hydo/oxys only to go up to a 12 year Methadone ride..They wanted me to do the Subs and I said no way..I did for 4 days and I could not take them also it made my detox off of 3 drugs now 4..The things you are describing above is just a few stages I went through..I am no spring chic so it took many, many months of many different stages..One from High Anxiety (Benzo too) to a very, very weak stage not even saying anything about all the other physical & mental issues.I always say on here because of my experience from going c/t from all 3, that it is better to do a slow and easy taper from the drug you are on.And Not play the merry-go-round..BUT on the other hand I have also read lots of success stories from people using these Subs and say they where a life saver..So I guess in the Long Run there is no easy way out but for some it was a bit less intense..What ever works for who ever is working it.OK Keep up the Good Work and now you can live free from the beast of any addicting Drug!!
Bless
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Avatar_m_tn
By the way, subs saved my life, hands down, but I had to go against my doctors recommendations. I was told I had to take them for 2 years for them to work. I asked for the research or to review the case files that proved his theory, he looked at me like I was a smart donkey. He had no proof or reasoning behind his subscribing methods. Two years at $200 a month sounds better than 30 days for $200. Can't explain it any other way. My point is, all drugs can be used to help or make things worse. i can even say that about methadone now, which I could not when I first detoxed. Just wanted to clarify that I am angry at the system, not the drug.
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4810126_tn?1409496012
I thank you for posting this. I'll remain silent on this except to say: It can cause liver damage, is wildly variant in it's fat solubility from person to person (more so than Methadone.) I was depressed and had a constant headache on Subutex. I experienced memory loss as well. Weaver is absolutely right about the lack of long term studies. Typical FDA of today. (There's a lot of money at stake and is touted as a 'cure' - or even as being 'clean'. I've seen that here on the forum.)
Methadone also stores in fat and bone; I've just discovered that I've lost almost an inch off my frame during my time on M. Methadone also attacks the pancreas and thyroid.

While these drugs are definitely indicated as harm reduction measure in some cases. I do feel that people should be educated and have their eyes open going in. So, again, thank you.


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1796826_tn?1390531971
Suboxone and Methadone are the only opiates I'm aware of that the state (in the US) has sanctioned as being ok to be addicted to for no other reason than that one is already addicted to opiates. As far as I can tell, a good case could be made for standardizing on a "better" state-sanctioned opiate. Nevertheless, those are the two that are available if you're going to do replacement therapy. It surprises me that many people, both doctors and addicts, seem to willfully or ignorantly ignore the fact that these two drugs are both just a form of opiate, no "better" or "worse" inherently than heroin or opium.
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4810126_tn?1409496012
Yeah, I'd like back what my friend above says with one proviso. Methadone and Suboxone are much harder to come off than non-synthetic opiates.
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480448_tn?1403547723
I agree with most of what you say in your OP, for the most part.  However, I think we need to be careful when using such strong language, or when generalizing.  It's true that docs don't know enough about Sub, or they ignore the important info in lieu of big profits.  Remember too, that Suboxone is a baby in terms of being on the market (I believe it was approved and released to the market in 2002), so it's too soon to really be able to assess any long term effects.  So, yes, that's something to consider when making the decision to use subs or not...just like it should be a factor with any other medication.  Sub most certainly isn't for everyone, but for some, it is a life saver.  I've seen people successfully complete their sub programs, and I've seen people taper off with pretty minimal w/d symptoms.  It has to be done RIGHT, or sadly, there will just be more horror stories.  It IS doable, and not everyone has had a horrendous experience.

Also, a BIG reason why Sub has gotten a pretty ugly reputation is because of all the people who either do NOT use it appropriately, or who try to do it themselves, outside of a clinic or doctor's care.  You cannot consider the horror stories of someone who is using sub without understanding it, or those who are non-compliant with sub treatment the way it is INTENDED to work.  I personally would discount those types of experiences.

I do absolutely recognize that sub comes with a whole lots of risks and challenges, but I have to be honest, posts like this, that demonize something in a very broad, generalized fashion, kind of make me cringe.

I would add for those who are reading...if you are considering Sub...do your homework, and find a GOOD Sub clinic...one that requires counselling and frequent tox screens, so you will be accountable and want to work the program.  Also understand that using sub as a way to get around w/ds isn't really going to yield long term positive results, or if you're using Subs in between when you can score your DOC, then you're not using sub as it was intended, and your experience really cannot be fairly considered compared to those who ARE taking a sub program seriously and doing the work to get better.  

In order for someone to be successful on Sub, a lot of work must be done, learning about one's addiction, learning new coping mechanisms, learning about relapse.  Once the subs are out of the picture, if you haven't addressed any of those issues, you'll be right back to square one and will likely relapse.  And yes, I agree, as a rule, compared to a full agonist opiate, sub w/ds are generally a little rougher and last a little longer.

Lastly, while reading about other's experiences, keep a few things in mind.  One, there is no way to predict how YOU will do based on other's experiences (good or bad)...you have to allow yourself to have your own unique experience.  Also, keep in mind that it is a lot easier to find the bad stories versus the good ones.  That's because people who have had positive experiences are far less likely to seek a venue like this to share thart experience, whereas someone who has had a bad experience wants to shout it from the rooftops.  Sub is only ONE tool in recovery, and for some people, it can really turn them around.
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Avatar_m_tn
Preach preach it sister I here you loud & clear some Drs & alike just Know Nothing about this cr*p I'm detoxing off a 16yr ride on methadone I'm now at 15ml & iv been to hell But most importantly Back from it I know its goona be hard!!! Iv gotten here haven't I? You too are here :) symphetic opiates are soooo much worse than "real opiates" half life 36 hrs But I am speaking to survivours who have been on it longer & much higher dose than me.  Its hell hell hell hell hell hell hell But with support EVERY ADDICTIVE  ILLNESS can be cured & maintained by good living NA CA AA meetings & support SO sister your preaching to the preacher here lol I cannot aggree with u more & when I'm clean from methadone MY goal in life is to educate & support drs councillers drug workers & addicts AS I'm now Against Drs handing out meth scripts like its a vitimin Hell I got put on a meth script for having a meth habbit IRONAY stay strong sister I'm with u all the way & so is everyone on here x
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Ohhh btw I got all my teeth removed at 25yrs old 25 my god because of this drug I'm glad I got them removed as I would never open my mouth & no one can tell there fake as I made sure to get little twists in them to look real. Unfortunatly a lot of people will have to suffer the same 20 teeth in one day 20 jags to help with pain Now no one tells u about the effects of rotten teeth from meth subs etc etc god bless stay strong & sober x
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Avatar_m_tn
Also yea subs are new to FDA & not much is known about long term affects so when I say "preach it" I'm talking about the meth part Not subs as iv only read about them I did bring it to the attention of my DW yrs ago & she looked at me like I was MAD so I said "educate yourself mrs" sorry to here your so ill after 4 months clean grrrrrrr
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3197167_tn?1348972206
Want to add an additional comment.....we have a medhelp forum member that was taking at least 50 percs (10 at a time, 5x/day).......He has just started a suboxone program and has successfully made it 24 hrs without
any pill/percs!!  For someone like him......the suboxone program will likely safe his life.  There are a few others on this forum that will tell you that being on a good sub program "saved their lives".

I'm a person that was "put on subs" with NO knowledge.....before OR after......so I agree that they have a useful purpose if taken correctly, with a treatment program and UA testing as part of the whole protocol.

Kinda like another conversation we had on this forum the other day.....ANYTHING can be misused and abused.....and that's just the reality of the world we live in.
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5420258_tn?1406910257
>>"Kinda like another conversation we had on this forum the other day.....ANYTHING can be misused and abused.....and that's just the reality of the world we live in."

Absolutely correct - I couldn't agree more. One could OD on aspirin if one set their mind to do so.
Also, I have a real problem with the ideal of the War on Drugs. It's not a war on drugs at all - it's a war on drug USERS. We have to stop hating the inanimate object for what it does to us and start taking accountability for our own abuse. That bottle of pills CAN'T hurt anyone while it's just sitting there being a bottle of pills. It's when someone picks it up, pops open the cap and swallows the contents that problems begin.

Don't make it harder for people with legitimate pain who get real, productive results from a drug that may harm you. Not everyone abuses and not everyone has the same reaction as you. My DOC is Tramadol and from what I've read on this board my drug is a walk in the park compared with the Oxycontin some here are addicted to. However, I don't judge what other people choose to ingest in their own bodies and I will never do any more than share my own story and own experience within my own skin.
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Avatar_f_tn
I haven't read through anything except the first post, but my experience with Suboxone was not like this at all. My teeth were not affected in any way. I still don't recommend Suboxone to many people, only because I feel it's us waaaaay over prescribed these days. But Suboxone definitely saved my life. I had no problems while on the medication, stayed on 8 mg for almost 4 years. When I wanted to come off, my doctor worked closely with me doing a very slow taper. My withdrawal was uncomfortable but much easier than coming off of my DOC many times before. Maybe it just depends on the person? I don't have any negative health affects from it either. This post really surprised me. I have been off 2 years and my biggest complaint was being tires, that's all. I hope you are feeling better soon:(
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Avatar_f_tn
I think opiates in general wreak havoc on your thyroid. They slow everything else down, so it only makes sense that it slows your thyroid. To confirm this, I recently had mine tested and it was very hypo. Ahhh, just another reason to quit.... like I needed any more. Thanks, Evolver, for sharing.
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Avatar_f_tn
Again, I agree with you. My uncle detoxed from hydrocodone-it was extremely painful. He later detoxed from methadone and it was PURE HELL. There's a reason they call it a "lifer" drug- if you start it, be prepared to be on it for life.
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1796826_tn?1390531971
Opiate: Natural alkaloid contained in the resin of the opium poppy, primarily morphine, codeine, and thebaine. Kratom and Salvia can also be considered natural opiates because of their action on various receptors. Kratom on the mu and delta receptors, and Salvia is a kappa-opioid agonist.

Opioid, semi-synthetic: Starts with poppy-based raw material (codeine, morphine, thebaine) and chemically alter these in the lab to come up with hydromorphone, hydrocodone, oxycodone, oxymorphone, desomorphine, diacetylmorphine (heroin), etc.

Opioid, fully synthetic: Fentanyl, pethidine, methadone, tramadol, dextropropoxyphene, buprenorphine (suboxone), etc. Created in lab with no need for raw material derived from the poppy. Many derived from petroleum.
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4810126_tn?1409496012
Petroleum, hunh? No wonder I feel like this. Learn something every day! Thanks. It's important for people to know these things. Please keep posting when you get 'new' info like this.
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4522800_tn?1405696702
Well I am going to add another 2 cents..Like I said in my first post I did learn alot on here about the Trams & Subs..I did take the subs in my own hands for 4 days and had to suffer..Now all the things I have learned about them alot of it came from NG..If I was not so stubborn and did my homework or even was already on here..I might have went on the Subs to help me come off the Methadone. Because I did go through so many, many stages of detox and it was very, very intense and long..So be that said I was on the Methadone already for pain for 12 years..I could of made it a lot less painful and had less suffering if I knew all about the Sub and also it MUST be under a Dr program..I have heard NG say many times that when you taper down from it, it has to be in a time frame and your body has to adjust to the change..So I must say I have changed my tune a bit on the Subs! But the Methadone is still a very evil drug and no one will ever change my mind on that one! Ok thats my story and I am sticking to it! Thanks
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1796826_tn?1390531971
Glad you liked it. It makes me wonder: Why are Methadone and Suboxone the State-Sanctioned opioides? Chemistry has come a long way since Nazi Germany first synthesized Methadone because the Allies cut off all natural sources of opium during WW2.
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4522800_tn?1405696702
Ya! Ben I read all about that it really got me thinking..Humm during the war and from who!! ha!! Was it meant to go wrong out here in the US! If you get my drift..
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4810126_tn?1409496012
Nazi Germany -- That's  why it's called 'Dolophine' for the fuhrer.
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1827057_tn?1397523877
Is that like adolphine ?  
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4810126_tn?1409496012
Not really but it's a 'fun' urban legend. I believe that it was first synthesized by a german pharmaceutical company, though.
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1827057_tn?1397523877
Yes it was . I believe it was stauff pharmaceuticals. Or maybe it was finster feldswebel laboratories.Can't remember
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4810126_tn?1409496012
Hic!..he
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5133446_tn?1364092540
Completely agree! Do not take Methadone/Suboxone or Subutex you will regret it! They are even putting low abuses on that crap and tried it with me when I was only on 150mg Codeine! They wanted to start me on 8mg Suboxone I mean WTF! It's also a money maker for these people as well.
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5133446_tn?1364092540
Also like to add Suboxone/Subutex can be very successful but only if used no longer than 21 days
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5133446_tn?1364092540
Sorry one more thing to add. Doctors over dose patients on suboxone/sutubex. Most people do not need 8mg, 2-4mg is more than enough to keep someone comfortable but they just don't know what they are doing.
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1796826_tn?1390531971
IG Farben was the name of the company. Check out the book "The Crime and Punishment of IG Farben" for a full accounting. "During the International Crime Tribunals that followed the collapse of the Third Reich, a group of industrialists from I.G. Farben, Germany's great chemical combine, sat in the dock alongside the leaders of Nazi Germany." Naming it after Hitler is an urban legend, that it (methadone) was developed by the Nazis is quite true.
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4810126_tn?1409496012
Yup! Methadone & Zyklon-B, brought to you by the good folks at IG Farbenkonzern..
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480448_tn?1403547723
I respectfully disagree with your post about the 21 days.  This is a huge and common misconception about Sub.  It takes about 2 weeks (sometimes more) JUST for the body to adjust to Sub from the DOC (to go from a full agonist opiate to a partial agonist).  A person would be barely stabilized and adjusted to Sub at 21 days.  

There have been people who have used a VERY quick taper (like a week) to detox off their DOC, which I personally don't believe is the right way to use Sub, I feel the person might as well just taper off their DOC (depending on what it is).  

But, in order to actually be SUCCESSFUL at a Sub program, time must be spent working on recovery, and learning how to handle relapse.  A typical Sub program is 6-12 months long.  I've seen many people do very well in that period of time.  That gave them ample time to slowly taper off the Subs, while regaining the "normalcy" back in life that a lot of addicts are often missing...it helps build self confidence.

Also, it's not true that Sub becomes MUCH more difficult to come off at 3month, or 6 months versus a few weeks.  There would not be a difference.  The process and physiology is the same.  Now, for a person who has been on subs for many YEARS...they may have a harder time, but there are many reasons why that's the case.

Just wanted to mention that...this is a common belief, that if someone is going to use sub, it should be for a very short period of time.  There actually is little to no benefit to using Sub for such a short period of time, and tapering off the Sub would be more difficult when someone does it that quick.

There are so many common myths and misconceptions with Sub, sadly.
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Avatar_m_tn
When I first came to this site, I felt very confused and almost gave up on MH all together. I had tried to taper methadone, tried CT many times, and was getting close to the end. I almost died during my last failed taper. I had decided to try subs and had an appointment when I stumbled onto this site. I was told I was getting a miracle drug, I was getting he11 in a bottle, and that I would be fine under a doctor's care. I was more scared and confused after posting my question. My doctor, MH friends, and local recovering addicts all had different opinions and facts to back them. This site is not to make people feel alone or stupid for the path they choose. During all the confusion, I had yet another respiratory arrest. I've never felt more scared. I look back and wonder what would have been helpful to me. If each person had only encouraged me with what they were for, rather than what they are against, I might have had an easier time choosing my path. Being told what to do and why is far easier to hear than what not to do and why. It takes the same knowledge, but is easier to digest for a suffering addict. Right or wrong, I used subs 20 days, I'm still clean. So, what's wrong with that? I just say this for those who are scared and feeling alone. If you don't like a drug, don't suggest it, tell us your solution and why. This is merely a request on behalf of those looking for answers. Venting is important for healing, but two people never have the same experience. We all have to do what we have to do, that's what it takes. I hope I'm not stepping on toes, I've seen lots of posts like this in the last year. I just want to say,"There is absolutely no wrong way to get clean, as long as you get and stay clean."
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480448_tn?1403547723
Great post weaver, and you're right...what works for one may not work for another.

I have my own opinions, and my own biases as well, and I try to remain as fair and neutral as possible when discussing something like Sub...I too just don't care for the very generalized post demonizing something.  Everyone's experience is valid, especially to them, but that doesn't mean others will have the same, and I think it's important to present balance, and to let the people reading know that not every story ends up the same way.  

I'm grateful you found a way to get clean...you've helped so many people by sharing your story here, I wish you would have gotten more neutral info when you first came searching.  There are just so many misconceptions and incorrect info out there floating around.  When someone is searching...it's enough to scare the daylights out of them.

I am not a die hard pro Sub person, but I HAVE absolutely seen it work the way it's supposed to, and will always share those experiences to present that all important balance, so that in the least, people can weigh their options with more info.
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4810126_tn?1409496012
I too, used subs this particular time to detox off Methadone and it worked for me. Either way, the withdrawal will be rough. I've done it both ways.
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4810126_tn?1409496012
Sorry, I used it for 20 days. The last time it was months. The w/d's were the same.
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Avatar_m_tn
Thank you nursegirl, I would never suggest doing it the way I did, but I'm glad it worked. I agree with almost every opinion you have, I think you know that by now.. You maintain the most neutral stand, and really appreciate that. Demonizing doesn't help very much, knowing the facts and hearing testimonies is much more effective, if helping others is the goal. If changing the medical field is the goal, there must be another venue with more folks with more clean time to fight that battle. I just remember feeling so confused by all the opinions of what not to do, but I had tried all the other recommendations. Anyway, I just hope folks can see a bigger picture of their influence on those seeking encouragement. Balance is the key, thanks for keeping that door open.
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Avatar_f_tn
Weaver, it's no wonder your my hero! GREAT post......
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Avatar_m_tn
You make a good point Evolver, the detox is rough no matter what, from any opiate. I was talking to my wife about my time on subs this morning. Is all it did was give me a moment of clarity and time to get a plan of recovery in place. It was that glimpse that kept me going through the months of methadone PAWS and sub detox. Not one part of it was easy, but without subs, I believe I would have given up and be dead today. I never suggest subs, but try to give real info to those who make that choice. I never recommend methadone either, but helped a local friend use it for two weeks to quit a 12 yr Oxy addiction. Willingness and openmindedness with good aftercare, those are the fundamentals in my view. This is a case by case disease, and I hope I never forget that. Please tell me if I ever get off track. You guys are great, thanks again.
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480448_tn?1403547723
Sorry, I used it for 20 days. The last time it was months. The w/d's were the same

I really appreciate you sharing this, E!  People just do NOT believe that,  They think for every day they are on Subs longer, the worse the w/d will be.  While length of use may factor in a LITTLE bit when we're talking years...there won't be much of a difference in w/d once a person has been on it long enough to fill the receptors.

And while I don't think using it as an acute med for w/ds is optimal, it's clear that that HAS worked for people, more power to them.  I would imagine it takes some real dedication after that brief a time to not go back on...I give people credit for that.


This is a great discussion!  Even though our OP seems to be MIA!  :0)
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Avatar_f_tn
hi there, I just want to say I agree with you fully re methadone! I was on it for 19 years and "involuntarily withdrawn" (read as kicked off!) last October. I was counted off 75mg over an 8 week period and honestly thought I was gona die at times. I managed 3 weeks clean after my last dose but lost 10kg and could barely get off my bed, let alone shop, cook, look after my son, work, or live any kind of 'normal' life. After my last dose & 3 weeks of doing it incredibly hard I just couldn't stand another day and went back to injecting opiates. Before you know it I had a habit that was growing daily and life was so not fun. In January of this year I went on holiday with my dad for 12 days with every intention of getting clean; I had dhc's and quetiapine to help me through; thought I'd be sweet but day 12 was just as bad as day 1. I averaged 2 hours sleep a night and was plagued with severe cramps, shocking aching that felt as though it was coming from inside my bones, and could get no relief from, crazy mood swings, absolute exhaustion, no appetite, crook guts, etc etc, and my life was just so f***n hard to want to live. I had phone counselling daily, was with my father, who was fully aware of what I was going through and has been extremely supportive of me since my addiction began at a very young age (17 when I first injected opiates & I'm now almost 47). So the first thing I did when I arrived home was have a shot of morphine. And that was my life until I just couldn't do it any more. I phoned my dad in Australia - I'm from New Zealand - and asked if he'd help me one last time. I was on a plane 4 days later, in severe withdrawal, weighing 45kg and with a myriad of other health problems; the following day I saw the most amazing GP and received my first 8mg dose of Suboxone. That was 19 days ago and I cannot rate this drug highly enough!!!! It has truly saved my life, is so incredibly different to methadone and has made my life worth living again. I didn't know until I started this medication, how much of a fog I was in the whole 19 years I was on methadone, it didn't stop my use of opiates, all is does is give you a higher tolerance. I did reduce how often I used hugely, managed a couple of years here and there; I mostly would have a shot on my birthday or at xmas, an addict can always come up with a good 'occasion' to use! Anyway I'm on 20mg of Suboxone and think that I'm stable now. I still get the hot and cold sweats and some cramp in my feet but that's nothing compared to how I felt when I arrived in Australia. Unfortunately Suboxone is a relative unknown in NZ but I really do think it is a brilliant alternative to methadone if one is seriously wanting to get clean. My aim is to eventually come off Suboxone, but after a 30 year addiction I will be taking my sweet time. I love the clarity of mind that I now have, that I missed out on for 19 years. I feel as though I am just getting to know the real me-and I like me, for the first time that I can remember! So I just want to say that everybody has a different story and that different medications do work differently for different people. I don't know much at all about the side effects etc of Suboxone but will be reading as much as I can to find out. For me it was an absolute life saver - literally. And if I have to stay on it long-term I will. If I had an illness such as diabetes or a heart condition I wouldn't think of stopping those kind of meds and in my opinion addiction is an illness. If a person is unable to manage without medication then don't. We shouldn't have to be ashamed of our illnesses, whatever they are.
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5133446_tn?1364092540
I'm talking about people who take low doses of Opiates. They do not need to be put on a long term Sub programme. Like me and my Doctor trying to force me onto 8mg Suboxone for 150mg Codeine habit it's kinda ridiculous don't you think? but unfortunately a lot of people are being put on this kind of dose.
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480448_tn?1403547723
Oh I agree completely.  I state all the time that a lot of people really don't have enough of a habit to justify Sub, but not everyone can be convinced, and sometimes the patients themselves seek it out, because they just cannot handle the w/ds.  I would never recommend Sub for someone with a minimal habit..but if they're already on it, or have made up their minds...I try to give them the facts they need, and try to educate them as best I can...because like I said, there is just so much bad info out there.

I wasn't disagreeing with that aspect of your post at all...it was this post of yours I was referencing:

Also like to add Suboxone/Subutex can be very successful but only if used no longer than 21 days .

A statement like that unfortunately just feeds into the misconception out there.  You are making a strong statement...and nowhere does it indicate that it's your opinion, so many could read that as a factual statement....and it isn't.  

With the way sub works, and the long half life, 21 days isn't long enough to accomplish anything in a sub program, and most importantly, it isn't long enough to do a controlled taper so that people don't suffer horrendous w/ds.  

Like I said above, it takes 2 weeks (sometimes longer) JUST for the body to adjust to the Sub and for the buprenorphine to fill the opiate receptors in the way they do.  That would leave a week to get off the subs.  It's a little complex to understand exactly how it works..but again, this whole idea that sub should only be used for a very very short period of time is inherently incorrect considering how sub works.  That's not to say that some don't use it that way...but it isn't how it's indicated to be used.

Please understand that I'm just trying to clarify, not trying to be argumentative or anything.  
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Sometimes when  I see posts where people say how great they feel and how clear headed and motivated they are  and how sub has changed their life and made it better than it ever was I think that I am missing something by not being on suboxone. Does anyone else who is completely clean and sober ever feel that way? Who knows. I do feel like that sometimes when I see them.  
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Avatar_m_tn
Yes Ricart, I really wanted that sub buz back, once I was taking nothing. Sub is a different high, so it felt "normal." I've read studies stating that 4 mg of sub covers 80 percent of emotion receptors in the brain. Non-addicts describe 2mg sub like a speed ball, upper and downer mixed. Illicit subs are running rampant in Scandanavia, they are abused more than cocaine, amphetamine, and heroine combined. They are a drug, a powerful one.  I feel that craving sub is like craving any opiate. You're not missing anything, if you are clean. You will find most people who are still claiming a miracle drug are still taking it, I felt that way about methadone at first, but all opiates and opioids can turn on you.  oBut to answer your question, yes, I do miss getting high sometimes. Subs really did feel good, that's why a lot of people get stuck on them. Used as a Small part of a complete recovery program, they can be a good transition drug, but then you have to detox again. Of coarse these are opinions, but I'd never trade total sobriety for SUBriety. Subs saved my life and felt so good it scared me. I should have taken them longer, but fear of a new addiction overwhelmed me. It's 4 hrs to a GOOD sub doctor here, so I made a lot of mistakes. I'm so lucky and grateful to be alive. I h
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HI well I wont argue this with you methadone ruled my life for 7yrs and it had profound long lasting withdrawals  I would have been better telling the doctor no thanks but I bit the hook and wound up a lot like you  I too lost teeth to it it soaked into my bones making the withdrawal horable im not an avacate of the stuff but on the flip side it is better then sticking a needle in your arm  both methadone and sub save coutless lives but on the same hand it is way over perscribed to those that should just detox off the pills good luck to you just know it does get better with time  you should join N/A it will help to have someone to talk to one on one good luck and God bless...............................Gnarly......................................
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480448_tn?1403547723
Well said, gnarly!
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1827057_tn?1397523877
Thank you very much for posting that.  That is the way I felt the first time I took an opiate. not buzzed out but very clear headed and sped up and totally unencumbered by negative emotion. I could have said the exact same thing as is said about sub.  I do value my sobriety but sometimes I think that there is a pleasure and focus that is just missing . I wind myself up every day and drive myself though. I am so happy to not have to wake up and take something or have to worry about a distant or not so distant future where I have to jump off of the cliff and come off of another vicious addiction.
Thank you weaver !  ;)
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Great Post Nursegirl, as always you are a great advocate on the board, I Myself have not used Subs but It did save my friends life and she was on it under a great doctor and she is off now and it helped her get her life together and get into a good program to stay clean, I think used properly under a good doctor it can be successful but long term use from what I have read is not good over a year it gets harder and harder to get away from long term side effects.
Like nursegirl said do your homework find a good doctor and I Know Weaver used it to help him and it worked great.
i also definitely agree this medication Subs should never be taken just for a quick fix it needs to be given by a Doctor and a program be set up and a plan. Good Luck and God Bless :)
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Thanks weaver71 for your comment ive been on subs for 8-9 years awhile ago my doctor and I have decided to go long term im really scared to detox and after reading this im terrified of effects and what they can do to my body and had my doubts that side effects were minimal  I know your not a doctor but some advice and a little info on what you know about this drug would be great cause I love suboxone they make my depressing days go by so much better and I was an addict from opiates for some years and subs saved me if not for them id be dead don't  know what to do. any help would be so helpful Thank you, Sincerely kiddcyr
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Avatar_m_tn
I have had the exact same experience.  I was on about 4mg/day and had a major break up and moved, and sort of blamed all my problems on suboxone when in reality it was helping me immensely...so i went off, relapsed mightily (long story) then back to nothing for a few months, no subs nothing.  And I was depressed as hell.  I had been totally 100% clean for a little over 9 weeks, and there was just this fog over me.  I then made the active decision to go back on them.  For me, they help my life, I feel better, and they keep me away from worse ****.  And, I feel pretty much NO side effects.  I take a strip in the morning and thats it, done.  No different than the next person who takes X other pill or whatever.  My main point is that people unfortunately demonize suboxone, which is a miracle drug FOR OPIATE ADDICTS.  There is also some pending research, which I personally believe will be expanded on in the coming years, regarding its potential with alcohol and depression, but thats beside the point...Suboxone is known to cause SIGNIFICANTLY less side effects compared to full agonists and especially the (shudder) M-DONE.  I urge anybody considering it to bite the bullet, its harder to stabilize on suboxone but infinitely worth it and any habit can eventually be controlled by it, it just might take a little while, even a week or so, but go the sub route, if only for the sake of the ridiculous daily trek to the clinic :(, I always feel bad about that, that would be annoying as HELL
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I agree that it is primarily about making money. Maybe there are some good, caring doctors out there but... I don't think that is primarily the case. My sub doc seemed compassionate, even set up a payment plan for me, but then dropped me when I couldn't pay for my follow-up visit on the spot. (My first visit was REDUCED to $288, not including Rx, even though I am on Medicaid.)

I was taking less than 50mg of Vicodin (or an equivalent) and this doctor thought Subutex was a good choice for me, starting at 4mg up to 24mg a day prescribed.

I'm not sure how much is this particular doctor or just the system. I honestly feel that a doctor prescribing me a handful of Vics a day (50mg was a MAX dose) would have been safer, especially as I was dealing with pain issues as well. My primary doc cut me off opiates and I couldn't handle the pain and cravings while my husband was keeping his own painkillers in the house (but wasn't comfortable sharing with me). Talk about trading a habit for a worse habit, not to mention seemingly endless side effects with Subox.
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480448_tn?1403547723
I'm so sorry for your experience.  Yes, you definitely traded a minimal habit for a much bigger one!

Are you still on the sub?
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