Aa
Taper Schedule
OK...sorry for all the posting lately - I just have so many questions
Can some of you share an possible taper schedules.....
.....OH and why would anyone quit C/T if they can taper?
Just need to understand....lol.
S.
Can some of you share an possible taper schedules.....
.....OH and why would anyone quit C/T if they can taper?
Just need to understand....lol.
S.
PAWS is not 6 months of drug use.......people want to blame PAWS for a variety of things........
In most cases PAWS takes years of heavy drug use, many years..............
In most cases PAWS takes years of heavy drug use, many years..............
....so you think the paws is unavoidable? I had not taken any for a week and the "paws" i belive were calling it, was just so long and protracted thru the week that I broke down over the weekend and took 4-5 between Friday and Sunday evening.
It's over 12hrs since last pill and I am feeling ok. No real anxiety to speak of.....so I am gonna assume that I went thru the worst of the withdraw (paws) last week.... long time drug use I would imagine = 6+ months or more? but i'm no Doc. I've only had an issue maybe 2-3 months and then only INTERMITTENTLY.
What I was hoping to hear was that because of such a mild dependency, withdraw might be significantly reduced or even eliminated by tapering.
What I am hearing is that no matter weather I taper or not, I'm still going to pay the piper....the decision is weather to pay all at once or in small increments?
Is that close?
I'm starting to feel like I am kinda like a softie, if you will because I think what I went thru is way more mild then what many of those who have posted on these boards. Either way, it was profound to me. Don't wish what I went thru on anyone.
But If things get edgy, i'll take one and so on... - spacing them way apart until I can go 2-3 days between and then I guess I can expect a few weeks of 'cravings' maybe / hopefully instead of that all out anxiety after cold turkey. Man that was rough!
It's over 12hrs since last pill and I am feeling ok. No real anxiety to speak of.....so I am gonna assume that I went thru the worst of the withdraw (paws) last week.... long time drug use I would imagine = 6+ months or more? but i'm no Doc. I've only had an issue maybe 2-3 months and then only INTERMITTENTLY.
What I was hoping to hear was that because of such a mild dependency, withdraw might be significantly reduced or even eliminated by tapering.
What I am hearing is that no matter weather I taper or not, I'm still going to pay the piper....the decision is weather to pay all at once or in small increments?
Is that close?
I'm starting to feel like I am kinda like a softie, if you will because I think what I went thru is way more mild then what many of those who have posted on these boards. Either way, it was profound to me. Don't wish what I went thru on anyone.
But If things get edgy, i'll take one and so on... - spacing them way apart until I can go 2-3 days between and then I guess I can expect a few weeks of 'cravings' maybe / hopefully instead of that all out anxiety after cold turkey. Man that was rough!
PAWS is not minimal and generally only happen to long time users..........
tapering has nothing to do with PAWS and is brain distortions effecting a variety of things from long time drug use.........
tapering has nothing to do with PAWS and is brain distortions effecting a variety of things from long time drug use.........
That was from the article.. I didn't write it..
PAWS stands for Post Accute Withdrawl Syndrome... I don't neccessarily believe tapering will eliminate PAWS... I do believe that amino acids can help though..
PAWS stands for Post Accute Withdrawl Syndrome... I don't neccessarily believe tapering will eliminate PAWS... I do believe that amino acids can help though..
FLaddict: YOU SAID: "The PAWS will be minimal too. "
What is PAWS? not familiar with that term....lol..sorry, I'm kinda a noob.
Sandman
What is PAWS? not familiar with that term....lol..sorry, I'm kinda a noob.
Sandman
FLaddict, thanks- great read.
I can do this.
... and to answer HANK: I have hydro apap 10-325 tabqua. DOSE: 1 to 2 tabs every 4-6 hrs as needed. Qty 120. 3 refills since 4/07 - Taking for maybe 3 months intermittently. Only realized a problem when I c/t last weekend. Was too much so I have decided to taper but after 5 days with NOTHING and maybe having taken 4-5 over the weekend to take edge off....i'm prolly gonna start off and see how long I can go w/o ANYTHING again.
If the anxiety crancks up to o much for me again, I can start my taper from x2 1/2 tabs a day (spaced far apart) and will see the doc about some better support meds instead of the Librium and beta blocker he gave me (which I stopped taking after two days anyway)
I really hope that I am not fooling myself with this strategy - AS LONG as I follow thru- right?
I think I had SUCH a hard time before because, for whatever reason, I was doing 8-10 a day constant for maybe 2 weeks......then bam. C/T. Many have said that was insane. What did I know. It was my idea to c/t though not knowing how bad the symptoms of w/d would be. Had I realized, I would have chosen taper and prolly never posted on this thread....lol.
Anyhoo, I think I MIGHT be fooling myself, but I am NOT EVER GOING to refill these and the doc and pharmacist and wife are all 'in the know' - so I have accountability there.....
I think I got thru the worse when I c/t for 5 days.....so the post about an addict not being able to taper because he does what he does I don't BELIEVE applies to me....well see right. :)
The idea of changing my MENTAL habits as well- changing the way I think..... will be good to do in the meantime. As I taper, I plan to create good 'mental' habits to help with the 'end game' issues associated with getting of these little demons in a bottle.
All your feedback and support has been of so much comfort and as I have said, i jump at the opportunity to pay it back in any way. Thanks again all.
Sandybrains....
I can do this.
... and to answer HANK: I have hydro apap 10-325 tabqua. DOSE: 1 to 2 tabs every 4-6 hrs as needed. Qty 120. 3 refills since 4/07 - Taking for maybe 3 months intermittently. Only realized a problem when I c/t last weekend. Was too much so I have decided to taper but after 5 days with NOTHING and maybe having taken 4-5 over the weekend to take edge off....i'm prolly gonna start off and see how long I can go w/o ANYTHING again.
If the anxiety crancks up to o much for me again, I can start my taper from x2 1/2 tabs a day (spaced far apart) and will see the doc about some better support meds instead of the Librium and beta blocker he gave me (which I stopped taking after two days anyway)
I really hope that I am not fooling myself with this strategy - AS LONG as I follow thru- right?
I think I had SUCH a hard time before because, for whatever reason, I was doing 8-10 a day constant for maybe 2 weeks......then bam. C/T. Many have said that was insane. What did I know. It was my idea to c/t though not knowing how bad the symptoms of w/d would be. Had I realized, I would have chosen taper and prolly never posted on this thread....lol.
Anyhoo, I think I MIGHT be fooling myself, but I am NOT EVER GOING to refill these and the doc and pharmacist and wife are all 'in the know' - so I have accountability there.....
I think I got thru the worse when I c/t for 5 days.....so the post about an addict not being able to taper because he does what he does I don't BELIEVE applies to me....well see right. :)
The idea of changing my MENTAL habits as well- changing the way I think..... will be good to do in the meantime. As I taper, I plan to create good 'mental' habits to help with the 'end game' issues associated with getting of these little demons in a bottle.
All your feedback and support has been of so much comfort and as I have said, i jump at the opportunity to pay it back in any way. Thanks again all.
Sandybrains....
Here is an article I found very helpful while tapering maybe it will help you..XOXO-Stephanie
Time for some technical talk... One of the things which increases "dependence" is a spike in drug blood plasma levels. Addicts do this on purpose to get a "high". They do it by Snorting (Very fast delivery), IV Injections, Chewing up meds and taking on an empty stomach.
The above all produce the most amount of drug in the blood in an attempt to get a buzz. These spikes are one of the reasons we addicts get hooked faster than a COMPLIANT Chronic Pain Patient.
Being compliant means they take only as directed. The goal of compliance is to maintain an even blood plasma at the minimum amount to treat PAIN and NOT to produce euphoria (a high).
Since the blood plasma levels are lower, the levels of dopamine at the synaptic cleft do not spike so the receptor sites do not downregulate or decrease in number in response to the initially MUCH higher level of dopamine released as a result of spiking.
Addictive dosing behaviors, the large doses associated to Spike the blood plasma level, vs the lower low dosing and more often which is the KEY factor to the physical changes the brain makes which cause dependency.
Dependency is the actual physical changes to your body which cause withdrawal. Addiction is the BEHAVIOR of taking the drugs to get high, not as prescribed, and when not needed for clinical reasons. It is the un-manageable behaviors associated with lack of control.
Which comes first... Dependence or addiction? Usually it's addiction, but it can be the other way, but the key issue which causes the progression of addiction are the behaviors.
Addiction is what makes you take more and more, spiking doses, etc. This in turn increases dependence. The higher your dependence the higher the tollerance... Round and round you go. The addiction merry-go-round.
How to break the cycle? The only way is to change the behavior. That is a very difficult thing. Pain is usually a very good motivator. So is Euphoria. When the pain out weighs the euphoria one starts to consider breaking the cycle. Unfortunately the pain being eliminated by the drug is a driving force. Then the addict associated the RELIEF of th pain to the drug instead of the drug being the CAUSE of the pain.
SOoooooooo what to do? Break the cycle.
Many have to hit bottom to do that. That's the point where the pain of using overwhelms the relief of using. It's an emotional point which is different for different people. Not every one has to hit a bottom to quit. The sooner you quit the less pain and suffering you have to experience.
For folks who are on smaller doses and their disease has not progressed very far, they have not felt the extent of pain addiction can cause. Only conceptualizing how bad it can get may not be good enough to motivate a person early in addiction to quit.
Intellectually we know what lays ahead. We hear the truth from others, but yet we continue to use. It is not until we get a glimpse of the pain that lays ahead do we become to believe we need to quit. One HAS to believe that in fact addiction does lead to the loss of everything and eventually Jails Institutions and Death.
Addiction is a lot easier to nip in the bud physically but maybe not emotionally because one has not experienced the pain first hand. Some need more pain than others to quit. Some don't make it and end up end stage and their addiction wins.
If you want to get off of the pills you have to change your behavior.
1) STOP SNORTING your pills!
2) Stop spiking your dose!
3) stop taking enough to get high
You will never quit until you do that. Weather you can or not is up to you.
You have to come to a point where you make the decision you want to quit. The en you have to make a plan then you have to execute that plan. SIMPLE .... but not easy.
The solution from a clinical point of view for you at your point of addiction is so easy. A simple taper, and change the behavior. In short break the cycle.
How to do a taper is easy. Changing the behavior is the HARD part, but you have to want to change.
If you are taking 6 pills a day... then start taking them in even doses and don't take like 3-4 at a time. 24 hrs divided by 6 = 4 hrs. So only take one pill every 4 hrs. Then take 5 pills in 24 hrs. That's 4.8 hrs. Then 4 pills a day... break pills into 1/2's so you have 8 1/2 pills. and take 1/2 a pill every 3 hrs. Etc.
If you can't stick to a taper give the pills to a friend to dispense.
Mean while .. you have to start changing the way you think and the things you do... You should educate yourself... Good place to do all of that is NA or AA. It's FREE and takes up time. It forces you to be doing something other than sitting around with nothing to do and just thinking about using.
It's not the only way, but it's a good place to start. Take what you need from it, and leave the rest.
If you take the same amount or less every day and don't spike your dose you will eventually quit.
30 mg of Hydro can be tapered to 0 in 2-4 weeks painlessly. The PAWS will be minimal too.
The ball is in your court. We can not make you do anything. Only YOU can.
When you are ready is up to you. If you need to stay "out there" using and see for yourself how bad it will get that's up to you.
My recommendation.. Start to QUIT now! It will be a whole lot easier.
Time for some technical talk... One of the things which increases "dependence" is a spike in drug blood plasma levels. Addicts do this on purpose to get a "high". They do it by Snorting (Very fast delivery), IV Injections, Chewing up meds and taking on an empty stomach.
The above all produce the most amount of drug in the blood in an attempt to get a buzz. These spikes are one of the reasons we addicts get hooked faster than a COMPLIANT Chronic Pain Patient.
Being compliant means they take only as directed. The goal of compliance is to maintain an even blood plasma at the minimum amount to treat PAIN and NOT to produce euphoria (a high).
Since the blood plasma levels are lower, the levels of dopamine at the synaptic cleft do not spike so the receptor sites do not downregulate or decrease in number in response to the initially MUCH higher level of dopamine released as a result of spiking.
Addictive dosing behaviors, the large doses associated to Spike the blood plasma level, vs the lower low dosing and more often which is the KEY factor to the physical changes the brain makes which cause dependency.
Dependency is the actual physical changes to your body which cause withdrawal. Addiction is the BEHAVIOR of taking the drugs to get high, not as prescribed, and when not needed for clinical reasons. It is the un-manageable behaviors associated with lack of control.
Which comes first... Dependence or addiction? Usually it's addiction, but it can be the other way, but the key issue which causes the progression of addiction are the behaviors.
Addiction is what makes you take more and more, spiking doses, etc. This in turn increases dependence. The higher your dependence the higher the tollerance... Round and round you go. The addiction merry-go-round.
How to break the cycle? The only way is to change the behavior. That is a very difficult thing. Pain is usually a very good motivator. So is Euphoria. When the pain out weighs the euphoria one starts to consider breaking the cycle. Unfortunately the pain being eliminated by the drug is a driving force. Then the addict associated the RELIEF of th pain to the drug instead of the drug being the CAUSE of the pain.
SOoooooooo what to do? Break the cycle.
Many have to hit bottom to do that. That's the point where the pain of using overwhelms the relief of using. It's an emotional point which is different for different people. Not every one has to hit a bottom to quit. The sooner you quit the less pain and suffering you have to experience.
For folks who are on smaller doses and their disease has not progressed very far, they have not felt the extent of pain addiction can cause. Only conceptualizing how bad it can get may not be good enough to motivate a person early in addiction to quit.
Intellectually we know what lays ahead. We hear the truth from others, but yet we continue to use. It is not until we get a glimpse of the pain that lays ahead do we become to believe we need to quit. One HAS to believe that in fact addiction does lead to the loss of everything and eventually Jails Institutions and Death.
Addiction is a lot easier to nip in the bud physically but maybe not emotionally because one has not experienced the pain first hand. Some need more pain than others to quit. Some don't make it and end up end stage and their addiction wins.
If you want to get off of the pills you have to change your behavior.
1) STOP SNORTING your pills!
2) Stop spiking your dose!
3) stop taking enough to get high
You will never quit until you do that. Weather you can or not is up to you.
You have to come to a point where you make the decision you want to quit. The en you have to make a plan then you have to execute that plan. SIMPLE .... but not easy.
The solution from a clinical point of view for you at your point of addiction is so easy. A simple taper, and change the behavior. In short break the cycle.
How to do a taper is easy. Changing the behavior is the HARD part, but you have to want to change.
If you are taking 6 pills a day... then start taking them in even doses and don't take like 3-4 at a time. 24 hrs divided by 6 = 4 hrs. So only take one pill every 4 hrs. Then take 5 pills in 24 hrs. That's 4.8 hrs. Then 4 pills a day... break pills into 1/2's so you have 8 1/2 pills. and take 1/2 a pill every 3 hrs. Etc.
If you can't stick to a taper give the pills to a friend to dispense.
Mean while .. you have to start changing the way you think and the things you do... You should educate yourself... Good place to do all of that is NA or AA. It's FREE and takes up time. It forces you to be doing something other than sitting around with nothing to do and just thinking about using.
It's not the only way, but it's a good place to start. Take what you need from it, and leave the rest.
If you take the same amount or less every day and don't spike your dose you will eventually quit.
30 mg of Hydro can be tapered to 0 in 2-4 weeks painlessly. The PAWS will be minimal too.
The ball is in your court. We can not make you do anything. Only YOU can.
When you are ready is up to you. If you need to stay "out there" using and see for yourself how bad it will get that's up to you.
My recommendation.. Start to QUIT now! It will be a whole lot easier.
Hi
You say you were taking 8-10 a day? First what dose were they? Second how long were you on them? Third why were you taking them and has that been resolved? No matter what dose you were taking though going from ave 0f 9 a day to 2 a day is going to be almost as painful as C/T! Most of the plans I see are cutting 1/2 a pill per dose every few days. Assuming you took 2 at a time then take 1 1/2 at a time and try to keep a regular schedule and don't if possible take any in the middle! How long you stay at a level will depend on you and how many pills you have left? If you run out and are still on a higher dose of say 4 maybe even less it will still be like going cold turkey! Others can tell you more as the only way I can do it is C/T. I can tell you if you have two weeks you can take and you are almost half way there C/T even though some what more painful for a while will be easier as you don't keep looking and knowing the last pill is X number of days away! Does your Doctor know exactly how many you were taking? If he does then maybe he could give you something to help with sleep. He should know depending on how many a person is taking they can become addicted in 4 to 6 weeks, and still have bad W/D'S!
Hank
You say you were taking 8-10 a day? First what dose were they? Second how long were you on them? Third why were you taking them and has that been resolved? No matter what dose you were taking though going from ave 0f 9 a day to 2 a day is going to be almost as painful as C/T! Most of the plans I see are cutting 1/2 a pill per dose every few days. Assuming you took 2 at a time then take 1 1/2 at a time and try to keep a regular schedule and don't if possible take any in the middle! How long you stay at a level will depend on you and how many pills you have left? If you run out and are still on a higher dose of say 4 maybe even less it will still be like going cold turkey! Others can tell you more as the only way I can do it is C/T. I can tell you if you have two weeks you can take and you are almost half way there C/T even though some what more painful for a while will be easier as you don't keep looking and knowing the last pill is X number of days away! Does your Doctor know exactly how many you were taking? If he does then maybe he could give you something to help with sleep. He should know depending on how many a person is taking they can become addicted in 4 to 6 weeks, and still have bad W/D'S!
Hank
sorry for bad syntax, in second sentence, it's late. But u get the idea, I just wonder what some taper methods are -
mine was 8-10 a day then an attempt to taper using 9 pills total over 2 days....lol...yeah right!
I'm thinking more like 2 a day for a week, then 1 a day for a week then 1/2 a day for a week....
S
mine was 8-10 a day then an attempt to taper using 9 pills total over 2 days....lol...yeah right!
I'm thinking more like 2 a day for a week, then 1 a day for a week then 1/2 a day for a week....
S
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