Taper

[OxyDout]

Ok, its been a few days since my surgery, the first 2 days I took about 12 vics a day, then sat. I took 7 , then yesterday 5 and now today I plan on taking 4, I think I can get myself back to where I was because I WANT TO DO IT, this wasn't a relapse, I never wanted to get back into this situation and now that I am, all I want is OUT, therefor I will do this and I will not let myself fail.  Lately I have been thinking about getting married and being able to support a family. I know I'm only 22, but there is no doubt in my mind that by the time I'm 25 I will be married or engaged to be married. I love my girlfriend to death and I want to be able to support her.  I'm actually starting a ROTH IRA for a long term investment and have also opened a savings account so that I have money to play with. I know this doesn't seem related to drug addiction, but I'm telling all of you. YOU ARE ALL SMART PEOPLE, SOME OF YOU HAVE INCREDIBLE CAREERS, don't flush it down the toilet because of some DUMB ******* PILL!! its not worth it. I hope all of you have a better day, and please post, I need all of you today.

GWH

[jafco]

Hey there, It's jafco. Just wanted to let you know that I know how it feels. I had a small slip on Sat., had to meet with some old friends, and took two extra Norco that day. Boy, did I beat myself up over that! But I got right back to business on Sunday and only took four. Today I'm at 3.5 and I'm tapering at half a pill everyday. I've been very irratable and a little spaced out, but nothing I can't handle. By this Sunday I'll be done with it. I started two weeks ago, I was taking 10- 12 a day and now I'm pretty much where you are at. Let's ride this out together! I'm sure when we hit ground zero we're going to have some other issues to deal with, like increased withdrawal symptoms, and of course that big hole where the pill taking used to be. I'm planning on seeing a doctor at that point and maybe getting on an antidepressant so I don't slip back into my old habits. Luckily I also have some Xanax to help me through the heebie-geebies. That's going to be the next battle. I want off of these Xanax, they suck! I think I'm going to have a doctor transfer me over to Klonopin (which is longer acting), and tegretol, to get this done. There is a great article here http://members.dencity.com/benzobusters/xanaxbusters1.htm for anyone that's interested. Hang in there gwh, it sounds like you know what you want out of life and are determined not to let this thing lick you. I'm right there with you buddy!

Jafco

[OxyDout]

I'm so glad you posted, however, we are in a little different situation because I am now going to have to buy off the street. I was clean for 3 weeks, I have been doing very well the last 2 months, and now I spent 2 days with about 12 vics a ady then 1 day with 7, then yesterday 5, now today 4. So now, I have nothing left, I plan on taking 2-3 tomorrow then another 2 the next day. I don't expect to feel the FULL withdrawal because I have been doing well lately. I do expect to feel the depression, and fatigue, however, it shouldn't be so bad.  I'm just ******* pissed because I was doing so well, It was just too much pain afer the surgery, you know?  So please stay with me on this Jafco, I plan on putting 2 grand in the bank on fri, I need to follow through with this, this is a huge deal to me, so help me stay on track.  Thanks for the post and I will be around.

GWH

[jafco]

Why not ask the surgeon for a small quantity to get you through? If you go down by half a pill a day like I'm doing, you can be down from the 4 to nothing by the end of the week! I'd rather not see you make a "street purchase". At least to me, that keeps you in contact with the kind of people you want to stay away from right now. A small script for 15-20 Vics will get you through this as long as you stay with the program and don't take more than you should.
You can do it!
Jafco

[skipper]

GWH:
i agree with the last poster, ask your doc for a few more hydro!
good god kid, that's what he is there for!

sounds like your doing real well otherwise. keep on planning for
the future, but stay in today.

keep an angel on your shoulder
kip

[OxyDout]

I went through the script he gave me very quickly, and trust me when I say this DR. will NOT GIVE ME ANYMORE DRUGS UNLESS ITS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY. Hes an ass when it comes to pain meds, I guess he got burnt by a couple of "doctor hoppers" that is what he told me, so I don't know. The person I buy them from is one of my GOOD FRIENDS, hes not a dealer, This is not the same person i bought all my drugs from.  This is a friend who has had these pills for about a year, he had surgery on his shoulder. I told him my situation, he said he would only give me a total of 6 for the next two days. He said I can get 2 at a time, but no more and that I would have to make 3 visits to get the 6 pills, so its actually a good thing...... I don't want another script because the pain has died down and if I get my hands on more, I will start all over again, you know what I mean?? Trust me, I really mean what I"m saying guys. THERE IS NO WAY IN ******* HELL THAT I WILL EVER BE ABLE TO ABUSE DRUGS, I'M DEAD SERIOUS, NO WAY IN ******* HELL, I SWEAR ON MY BEST FRIENDS SOUL.

GWH

[dive]

Hey Dude,

How are you?  Sorry to hear about your pain.  I guess it sucks being an addict and then having to take pain meds for real pain.  I'm sure they don't work, LOL.  Anyway, I'm glad to hear how determined you are to get this behind you.  I too wouldn't consider this a slip up, since you took them for a real medical condition.  I just wanted to throw in my 4 cents regarding your taper.  If you want those withdrawal symptoms to be as little as possible, I may have the solution for you.  Try to taper to 1 vic a day by taking half in the morning and half at night.  Then switch to Nurofen Plus and start at 3 pills 3 times a day, Each pill has 12.8mg codeine in it.  That will hold the Withdrawals at bay.  then taper that to nothing, and you should experience what I did, very mild withdrawal for only 3 or so days.  This is what got me off, it may work for you.  Trust me there is no buzz from Nurofen, but they keep you from shitting all day long.  Try it, and if you don't know where to get Nurofen, just ask, and I will post the source.  

Whatever you do stay strong, and try to go without the opiates if you can.  I'm pulling for you, since I know how hard it is on you.  Especially coming off a oxy addiction.  

I'm still clean, going on 3 weeks tomorow.  I feel great, I only think about pills 3-4 times a day now, where 2 weeks ago, it was all I thought about.  Keep on Keepin on GWH, I know you are stronger than the pills.  Keep thinking how disappointed your girlfriend would be if she found out you were using again after quitting for 2 weeks.

I know surgery sucks, hell thats what kept my addiction going. But if you are in serious pain, go back to the doc and let him know, Legitimate pain requires legitimate pain meds.  In your case I believe you are in legitimate pain.  

Take care GWH, I'll be prayin for you.

[OxyDout]

good to hear from you and yes I would like to know where to get Nurofen (sp) that would be great if you could let me know, you can email me at r_baccari***@****. I would really appreciate it. Thanks again.

GWH

[OxyDout]

I'm doing some research, sounds like it would work, however, I'm curious as to how to get it, I hope you can post sometime soon, I appreciate any info you can give. Thanks again.

[oh please already]

hi I hope your feeling better,you sound like you are   but what are you doing? dont start getting off the path your on-INSIST  your doctor help,whenyou start to make "Plans" to get by thats when it seems to fall apart.IF you think that a big rx will be too tempting then wait till tonight and call the covering md-tell the truth and he'll proable give you5-10 pills which is what you are looking for. dont get back into a game after you have come so far.dont be mad,im just loving you

[groovygirl]

you're on a roll, so please don't order anything...if it's an online source, it's trouble.  if your dr. wants to prescribe it, with the knowledge that you are an opiate addict, then that's another story.  you've weaned off the stuff before, and this should be mild in comparison.  if you are in legitimate pain still, then tell your dr.  they have an obligation to treat you for pain.  one way or another, you are going to have to feel crappy at some point right?

the other option is to try buprenex under a dr.'s supervision like i am doing.  it is very helpful, and i wouldn't be able to handle this without it.  it is also very good for chronic pain - it is a very "clean" drug, and isn't filtered thru your liver.  also, it is a schedule 5 medication, so it supposedly isn't AS addicting as some. my dr. recommends that i keep using it as needed for pain (migraines).  you have my email, so if you want further info on it just ask.  take care...

[oh please already]

i just wanted to remind you that you did nothing wrong,you got cut-had pain -took care of it and moved on,just keep on the straight path and youll be fine ,i had a dream about you and that was the ending,you were fine.

[dive]

I know my advise sounds like **** to many of you here, but believe me, that Nurofen was a lifesaver for me.  Bup works for some, others need methadone, I just needed some codeine pills to slowly get me off opiates.  I'm 3 weeks clean, and loving it.  So please don't take this the wrong way, but what's the difference between me taking 25.6mg of codeine to keep withdrawal at bay, when you're shooting Bup to do the same thing, or you're munching methadone pills to do the same thing,  

I remember a post by Skipper that went something like this:
Cold turkey can get you off,
Methadone can get you off,
Darvon can get you off,
Buprenex can get you off,

and then he said something else, I don't remember, but I do know one thing, do whatever you have to to get off, even if it is something you have to order online, Hell, most people who get Bup, without a doc, get it online, So don't think I'm steering anyone in the wrong direction, I was just suggesting something that worked for me, and may help save other lives.  Isn't that what this board is for anyway, to help not to judge.

By the way, since my girlfriend is a 3rd year pharmacy student, and has been studying Opiate addiction for a while now.  She informed me of interesting side affects, and interactions with the L-tyrosene in your blessed little "recipie".  Do your homework and you will find it is not a wonder drug. Neither is Buprenex. None of them are miracle drugs, so I don't like hearing people praise one drug, then put down another.  Kind of like MrMichael, I feel many on this board need a better education on the meds they take.  We are all self medicators, Maybe we should be smarter self medicators.

Don't flame this post, I will not get into a pissing match with anyone...

[GOD]

Far from "Flaming" your post, I want to applaud you!

You brought out some good points, and MrMichael does too.

Sometime we get sensitive too easily.

Educating yourselves is ALWAYS the best way to go about ANYTHING in life. Whether it's addiction, or what new car to buy, or where you want to live or retire. The more you know, the better off you are.

[mrmichael67]

I know I said I was gone, but maybe I lied.  Anyway, to clear up a misunderstanding, cp stands for chronic pain, not cerebral palsy.  Glad I don't have that one.  For someone to be able to do a slow detox with codeine, they have to have a real low tolerance.  Back in my vic days, codeine wouldn't even keep the wd's away.  For someone who has a high tolerance, they would need a TON of codeine to even come close to helping.  If you were taking 22.5 to 67 mg of oxy a day, you would need 150 to 447 mg of codeine to equal it.  The thing with codeine is that at about 200 mg, the side effects become really nasty.  Codeine, like morphine, causes a histamine reaction which means you will be itching your ass off.  Now, there are people who are different.  Some might benefit from codeine, most wont.  As far as me not knowing about my meds, everyone is entitled to their opinion.  In my state, I can get codeine by just signing for it.  That is, the cough syrup, with 10mg per 5ml.  Of course, t3's are schedule III.  If you are opioid naive, have surgery or whatever and get vicodin or percs, you would probably be able to step down to the codeine and be fine.  I would suggest darvocet before the codeine.

[groovygirl]

this is not a flame, and i am very well-educated about medicine -narcotic medication to be more specific.  i like to be anonymous, which is one of the reasons i like coming here.  so, i will neither say why i know so much about it nor what i do for a living.  i do not order buprenex online.  i flew all the way from ma to fl to see a real, live dr. to be evaluated.  i think everyone wanting to detox should talk with a professional, be honest with a professional and seek treatment from a professional.  

buprenex is different from many of the other "wonder drugs" for many reasons.  i will not get into that - i don't have the time, and anyone interested can easily look it up online.  i posted what i did to gwh, because i care about him - i think it would be in his best interest to talk with a dr.

since he hasn't really tried any of the medications normally used for detox or maintenance, then i felt those would be good routes to travel first.  gwh will do what he wants, and will know that he has my full support in whatever he does to get well.

there's no need to bash me, especially since my post was not directed toward you in the first place.  you need to calm down and work your anger out in the gym or something.

[mrmichael67]

Mine wasn't a bash either, just posted what I know to be true about codeine.  This is a message board.  What people should be doing is when they have a question, they should collect each person's input and come to a decision on their own.  Not everyone is going to agree with one another.  For everyone's benefit, go here and bookmark it: http://www.globalrph.com/narcotic.htm.  This chart has been very useful to me.  If someone runs out of their meds and gets something else, they will know how much they should be taking.

[oh please already]

hey im glad your back,not that you have chonic pain of course,but you are right there are lots worse things we could have (besides a temper that is)I tried that sie you posted and got lost-could you narrow it down  i keep winding up at angel babies,(now thats somethings I never want to cope with)

[skipper]

hey people:
bup can detox a person
cold turkey can too
methadone can detox you or hookup with you for a long time...
hell even plain old darvon tapering works...

my favorite (one of) 20 th century author Jean Genet wrote
"oh walk through the walls if you must
my sleepers shall find a new amerika

i guess what i'm saying is you can do it any anumber of ways...just
do it. don't buddhist go to the same heaven as a baptist?

sooner or later every junky will detox, the important thing to keep
in mind is to stay informed and trust your judgement. what works
for me, might just kill some one else. let's share our knowledge!

keep an angel on your shoulder
kip

[mrmichael67]

Go to Google and type in 'Narcotic Conversion Chart' and hit google search.  It should be number 1 on the list.

[hippy]

IM cold turkey 18  day's ,with the receipe.
I think the depression and the inertia was the worst, have not had any depression with the vit's at all.
thanks to all of you  so much and i mean that from the bottom of my heart.
Ive been an addict since i started using street drug,s when i was 12 years old . was in out of na for 8 years finally got clean in 84 stayed clean in na untill  1999  due to shoulder
operations.
I could not get off the pain med's no matter what i tried.
so agian    thank you , thank you , thank you.

[jafco]

dive - I'd really like to know what you know about interactions with the L-Tyrosine because I'm taking it now, although not at the levels stated in the recipe,(only 2 a day), as well as the B6 and have found it to be helpful, even if only psychologically,(placebo effect). I'm aware that it shouldn't be taken with certain antidepressants, but beyond that, are there any other dangers at low doses?

groovygirl - I am very interested in the Buprenex, I did do a lot of internet research, and if I understand correctly, it's a partial agonist. This means that it is both an opiate agonist and antagonist. That being the case, it sounds like it can help you through withdrawal and at the same time has a low abuse potential due to the fact that if you take more than prescribed you will get a negative effect. So it seems it would be very good for chronic pain situations.

I have a severe TMJ condition which keeps me in constant pain.
As an alternative to opiates,I was thinking of trying accupuncture or something like that. I've already tried biofeedback and lidocaine injections. The injections are painful (15 injections in the temples, jaw, neck, and shoulders)and the pain relief is only temporary.

Can any physician prescribe buprenex or must you go to an Addiction Medicine specialist? Can my local pharmacy fill this prescription or do you have to get it from a clinic? I would not be in a position to fly to Florida($$$), nor would I ever order medicine from any foreign source on the internet (that's just me though). Is it a very expensive drug? I have to be realistic about cost being that I have no insurance.

Thanks much

Jafco

[jafco]

I should have read your other post first. So it's the injections that work? I thought the sublingual was comparable, (temgesic)? I found an Addiction specialist pretty close to home that is certified by ASAM (American Society of Addiction Medicine). I may give him a call and see if injectable Buprenex is appropriate for my situation. I'm almost done with my detox, so I'm thinking more about future pain management at this stage.

Jafco

[oh please already]

sorry i wasnt clear the other forum you listed is what i am speaking bout, i figered i could annoy others for a while

[hippy]

i also had suffered with tmj . what a pain full ordeal that was, i had it for about two years. ispent thousands to no avail .
the only thing that helped,  was a vitimine called MSM a sulfer based compound . i still take it. is's for bone bone pain like arthritis. you can loo it up on the internet, MSM.
I know when we are in that kind of pain , it's really tough to deal with and any inprovment is good.
when i had it , i felt like somone was driving a nail through my
ears, jaw's and the pain ran down into my shoulder's, and in the back of my neck. I also used one of those long bean bag's that you heat up in the micowave..that also helped.   along  with ice sometimes and advil.
I know some people who said a cryopractor helped them , it did not help me. I thought i was going to have it the rest of my
life. whitch at the time was  a scary thought that used to haunt me. i had to just take it a day at a time or i would have gone bonker's
TMJ is a hard thing to deal with , i think i just grew out of it or or somthing.                      good luck and ,post some more questions about it.  im sure some one else may have more specific answer's .  It was an elusive problem for me. and expensive.

[mrmichael67]

Go to www.ezboard.com.  Register and set yourself up with a user name and password.  Then it will ask you what board you want to visit.  It will be somewhere on the page.  The name of the board you want to go to is 'The New Addiction Medicine Forum'.  I hope this works.

[hippy]

just wanted to say thanks , ya never know how important a simple caring post could effect someone's life. your experence is a blessing . i hope to you keep up the good work of caring.
we reap what we sow. and posting to help other in need is so important on this site. It took me a year to find this fourm.,
and so far it has been a blessing beyond word's
SO many thank's to you and kip,gwh,ir,groovy,lanas,dock.JB.
and everyone else

[jafco]

Wow! You hit the nail right on the head about the symptoms. The ear pain, the headaches, the neck and shoulder pain. I had to laugh, I have the bean bag, actually an herbal wrap thats filled with certain herbs and flaxseed, which you heat in the microwave. I practically live with this this thing, and your right it helps alot. I also have several dental appliances that I seldom wear because they are very uncomfortable. I use one of those tens units (electrical stimulation) as well. I've had this now for almost 20 yrs. It seems to get worse when I'm stressed out, which is alot of the time. I wil definately look into the MSM. Thanks so much for taking an interest in my ordeal. I'll let you know how the MSM works. How often do you have to take it? Who turned you on to this? I've never even heard of this stuff.

Thanks Again

Jafco

[hippy]

i have really never had any faith or results regarding pain
in the area of natural remidies. but my 8o year old uncle and aunt told me about the msm. and how it was working for thier joint pain like nothing they ever took before.
well me bing thr skeptic i did not get it, but one day my wife got it for me because it was on sale 2 for the price of one.
I started taking it and it worked to my surprise.
As far as the tmj it was alwys much wore\se when i was stressed out. I also had the mouth peice ,i finally gve up on that after a year. I kept thinking i was being taking for a ride,
Any way good luck.
try that L-tyrosine that kicks in the endorphins and that is natural and can only help. i also was reading in a old vitamine book from the 70's that said that the l-tyrosine was given back then for people with cronic pain.     i hope it helps  peace.

[groovygirl]

hopefully within the month, buprenex will be fda approved for detox...right now it has to be prescribed for pain.  it's a bunch of bull...the methadone people don't want the competition, especially because bup is cheap.

a dr. has to take a class in how to administer bup, and will then be given a special license.  however, if your doc is willing to prescribe it for pain, then it could be a good way for you to go. the tabs are only available overseas right now, but they are supposedly going to manufacture a much stronger tab than exists now....so pretty soon we'll have that option.  the injects aren't fun for me.

anyway, talk with your dr. about it - can't hurt right?  good luck to you.

[skipper]

groovy:
i'm at day 4 with sublingual bup. my wife found a site that ex-
plained you have to hold the tablets under your tounge for 10
minutes without swallowing. as unpleasent as this has been, it
really makes a difference in their effectiveness! yesterday i
cut it down to four .2mg tablets...maybe 3 today! i wish i had
access to the injectable (i love needles!). maybe it's beter i
don't. the first dose i really overshot my dosing zone and found
it to be an extreamly unpleasent expierence! i lost a lot of con-
trol of my physical movement (staggering, etc), also slurred my
words for awhile. i'm kind of dissapointed, bup offers no control
of my intractable pain. i had real high hopes i could replace
120 mg oxy-c with bup.

oh yeah! stack this up to sick junky thinking. i wonder what
would happen if someone has ever iv administered these sublingual
tabs. my days of donating my body to drug abuse research are long
gone. has any one out there ever done bup iv? i'm mostly curious
about it's effect.

the really amazing thing about bup, is how normal it makes me
feel! my wife has also noticed this in me. i don't think the
methadone clinics have much to worry about. lots of junkys out
here, so it's just another option with far less  danger of being
an addiction much harder to shake off than other opiates. one of
the intresting things about bup is it is sythisized from thebane,
a strychnine like compound present in raw opium. oxycodone is al-
so made from thebane.

i hope your detox is on schedule, and you are suffering a minimum
of discomfort! something good is going to happen today, without
the use of dope!

keep angel on your shoulder
kip

[groovygirl]

you didn't get the tabs in the states did you?  i didn't think they were available here.  the shots are, so you might be able to find a dr. willing to prescribe them to you.  i'm also surprised by the side effects you experienced...i've never had any of that, plus i do not get the migraines while on it.  i guess it works differently for everyone...i wish it was as effective for you as it is for me for pain:(

things are going ok, but i am dreading the day that i have to stop completely...i think i'm going to have a really hard time with it.  

[OxyDout]

please someone help me, I'm miserable, I'm going through an awful withdrawal right now, not so much pain. Its the depression. I'm at work, I came in 2 hours late, my girlfriend called me and all I wanted to do was cry. I wanted to stay home so bad, but then she told me that I should go to work, and so I did. In anycase, i wish I would have told her before about the drugs, but I just can't tell her now, and I'm determined to make it through this, but I'm so depressed, I just feel like there is no way out of this. The only good thing is, I could have got oxy's last night, but I didn't because the only thing I can use to taper is vicodin.. I feel like I'm dying.

GWH

[jafco]

The worse thing you can do is dwell on this stuff and get yourself all stressed out. I know, because I'm an expert at it. You'd be suprised what negative thinking can do to your psyche. You may want to get on an antidepressant if your not already. I plan on doing the same in the near future. Start with the lowest dose you can take and see if it works for you. I have taken Prozac in the past and had alot of success with it, although different people get different results. Your doc will know whats best. I'm down to 3 Norco a day now and as I write this I have blurry vision, sweaty palms, stomach cramps, and pins and needles up the back of my left arm and the side of my face. You've got to distract yourself when you start feeling bad, it's the best thing you can do. So going to work may be the best way to keep yourself busy and keep your mind off of how your feeling.

Hang Tuff

Jafco

[GOD]

I feel for you, Man!

That depression is one of the WORST things about getting clean. We take drugs to "Feel better", and they do more than that! THey really mess with your brain chemistry. When I was coming off some of the powerful stuff I was taking, I was living a horrible nightmare for 3-4 days until I leveled out. Don't forget that this depression is NOT REAL.. The lack of the usual drugs in your system is screwing with your brain! When you start feeling like your going into the black cloud... Go to a Mirror, and say to your reflection, "I AM HERE, AND I AM WINNING!"

Look into your own eyes and see the addict in the reflection... That is NOT the real you! Soon enough after doing this often, you will start gaining MORE self-confidence, and THAT, my friend, is when you start to crawl out of the dark pit of depression. REMEMBER THIS: You will win. Yes, you will.

Jess

[OxyDout]

you guys are awesome, funny thing, I looked in the mirror this morning and said, WOW, YOU LOOK LIKE ABSOLUTE ****, I knew that couldn't be the case, hahahaha, just kidding. Oh god help me.

[jafco]

Thanks for the good advice. I'm going to try the MSM and I will contact my doc and see what the situation is with the Bup.

Jafco

[OxyDout]

I sent an email, so write back when you get a chance

[OxyDout]

god help me I'm at work and I'm stuck here with my leg moving 5 hundred miles an hour, I can't do this, I need to do something, what the hell do I do.  THIS IS THE WORST IVE BEEN IN A WHILE........................

[skipper]

gwh:
sorry you are having a bad day...thats all it really is! the
sooner you accept it as a bad day, the sooner it will turn around
into something else (hopefully a beter day)!

gwh you know enough about me to know i've been in exactly the bad
place you seem to be in. it will pass...there is a way through.
all this w/d stuff is real transitory. please don't impose per-
minent solutions on temporary problems. you've come a long way and that means you can come along a bit further!

now about your woman. i imagine she is endowed with equall amount
of intelegence as you (maybe more). how long before she adds all
this stuff up and figures it out without your help? just some-
thing to think about. i won't tell you how to handle this, but by
leaving her in the dark, aren't you selling her a bit short? like
i said it's your judgement call.

try to get as active physically as your injured knee will allow.
back in 78&79 i was on crutches, left leg wrapped in plaster for
the beter part of a year. i do know for a fact you can really get
a good workout on crutches....try it out.

i've been thinkin about you! if there was any way i could take
your dicomfort for just a little while i would, as many others
on this forum would do. it doesn't work that way. the best any
of us can do is pass on encouragement and knowledge!

sometime i'll tell you the story about the 10 junkys hideing out
in the bushes...but not until you tune up your sense of humor!

keep an angel on your shoulder
kip

[OxyDout]

seems a lot worse then just a bad day, I would agree if I were just sitting at home and going through this, but I'm in a cube with a computer and people all around me, I hate being here, its driving me insane, then I have to go to a second job tonight, but I don't think i'm going, well, thats if someone will work for me. Anyway, I hope all is well with your toe, keep posting, it really helps, because right now, I have an itch to go straight to the oxys.

GWH

[Witchywoman]

Hi everyone,
I'm back from paradise, but more on that in a minute.

GWH I'm so sorry to hear that you had to have more surgery and are having such a hard time now.  As Kip said, I wish I could take your pain and discomfort away from you, but it really and truly is only temporary. Try to tell yourself that over and over.
It is also really a shame that your body can't handle taking the supplements in terms of pills. I suggest you look for a liquid vitamin and mineral supplement. I swear that the vitamins and minerals make WD a whole lot easier, especially the zinc, mag and calcium..they help with the leg shakiness in particular. Any health food store will have these in liquid form, which you can mix in juice. Try it. It should make a difference. I don't know if you can get the amino acid L-Tyronsine in a liquid form, but I have seen multi amino acids in liquid, and I bet it includes the L-Tyrosine. Something to think about anyway.

Kip! I'm also sorry to hear you had to have your foot cut on. Man, you've had a rough go of it.  Also really glad to hear you figured out the right way to take the bup...it is sublingual and yes, you do have to hold it under your tongue for the first ten minutes without swallowing. When I read how many you took at first I almost choked. That was way way too high a dose.  Very sad that it is not helping your pain. It helps mine pretty well, enough to get by a few times a week, and better than ibuprofen, which I can no longer take.  But I only take the bup a few times a week when the pain is just intolerable as I'm terrified of any addiction again.

I had a wonderful time on my vacation. My husband and I went to Kauai, one of the Hawaiian Island. This place is truly heaven on earth. I can't even put it into words. It was so unbuilt up, so untouristy. Lush, green...waterfalls pouring into crystal clear pools surrounded by lush verns and trees, beautiful beaches, towering mountains. Whales, monk seals, dolphins, multicolored neon fish...just a nurturing, supportive land. I could go on and on...but I'll spare you.  Just..if you ever have a chance to go, jump at it.  It really restored my soul, and was very good for my marriage.

Nice to be back though, and I 've missed you all, and have a lot of catching up to do.

love,
WW

[groovygirl]

i'd love to go to hawaii - it's one of the places i've yet to go, and it's on the list!  vacations can do wonders for relationships.  we had a blast on our family vacation to disney.  the weather was great, and we really needed the no agenda, no phone calls, no computer type of thing...we really paid attention to each other!  i find myself answering my daughter sometimes while i'm on the computer and the phone at the same time...it's insanity and no good for anyone.  

does your dr. prescribe the bup?  if so, what state do you live in?  the **** still isn't fda approved...it blows my mind how slow it's going...every months they say "next month maybe" - it's such bull.

skipper - those were wise words to gwh.  coming clean with the person you love is such freedom...no more lying, gosh it makes you feel so much better!  i couldn't have gotten even this far without his support.  i even went so far as to tell my parents...now that wasn't such a good idea!  they are from the generation that they think smoking pot is like shooting heroine. they think i must not have been functioning...i told them that at the end i was taking it to be able to function...they just don't get it or don't want to get it.  i'm an embarassment to my upper-crust, waspy, keep everything in the closet type of family.  ok...i'm done for now:)

[cindi]

Kip   hey there,,,I'm glad you found the BUP,   i have used the injectable BUP before   it was not controlled or locked up in the narc cabinet at work  this was my pre -demerol  pre -dilaudid etc. days...i used it for the pain but i also found that given in larger doses I did get a buzz...I'm sure that would not happen post hydro-oxy etc..lots of people are turning to BUp   the thing about it here is Ohio is mainly only the surgeons have heard of it and several pharmacists I have talked to have never even heard of it,,how are you doing foot wise?  i'm glad the BUP is working for you....take care  cindi

[skipper]

cindi:
so did you shoot the bup (IV). i sure would like to hear about
someone elses expierence. many years ago i lived in Mpls. there
was a bar called the joint. at the time you could score a 30cc
bottle of talwin for $5.00! about 90 mgs of that horid **** was
a real freak show, complete with bugs and snakes coming out of
the walls. not exactly what a junky is after...but if you did not
have a habit, chased the talwin with a couple of double gin and
tonics.....smoked some weed...gees i'm sure glad i don't do that
anymore!!

my toe is giving me every bit of bad news a toe can give ya! why
didn't that foot croaker just cut the damm thing off? you know,
just keep cutting till you get to the good meat. i'm clock watch-
ing right now. all i want to do is take off the bandage and plung
the offending thing (my toe) into a pan of H2O2 (peroxide). how
is it something can itch and hurt so much at the same time. well
meaty boy thinks it's real intresting anyhow. all of my arab stu-
dent workers really dig my sandals though! yup thats kip...crumby
feet and a fashion plate besides!

keep an angel on your shoulder
kip

[jennyfla]

Just wanted to barge in for a sec to give an update.
Robert (my hub) has gone into detox and will be in for somewhere around 5-7 days.  Afterwards, he will need to get counseling, something to help him not fall back into addiction.
I am left holding the fort, as usual, and i've begun a quick taper using methadone and valium.
I took 20 mgs this morning, and i'm still ok.  I will take some valium tonight to sleep and drop to 10 mgs tomorrow morning and see how i do.  Next day 3/4, next 1/2 next 1/4.  The reason for dropping from 20 to 10 tomorrow is i didn't mean to take 20 today, i meant to take 10, so i don't want to prolong this.
I'm hoping to not be too uncomfortable, i HAVE to work and take care of my three little ones while i do this.
I'll keep you updated!
Lv Jenny

[groovygirl]

hi - good news about your husband...too bad you had everything fall into your lap tho....that's rough.  why have you begun a "fast" taper?  will that work for you?  i was also wondering where people get methadone?  are you in a clinic?  methadone is so hard to come by in ma...there are 5-6 month waiting lists right now.  i originally thought i may go that route, but the waiting was too long.  they make it really impossible here.  plus, if you have pain issues, they really put your through the ringer...like if you started taking opiates for pain, they need to talk with your doc to see if not taking them will be a problem.  they won't treat you for pain with methadone...lots of stupid rules...i don't get it.

[jennyfla]

Thanks for your support.
There isn't a lot of ryme or reason as far as the way the system works, and you'll kill yourself first before you figure it all out.
Most don't know what the hell their doing as far as i'm concerned (drs), but there are some good ones.  When i find one, i'll let you know because i have yet to find one.
Sometimes, when you really need help, you have to go to the support group of those who really know what the hell is all about, and that's the streets.  I got the meth from people i know, people that know the hell and understand what i'm doing and care.  I called a dr last week and begged for meth to help me detox, you know what i got, NO CALL BACK!!!
I had a friend just give me meth yesterday, i already had some, and he gave me more, just in case i needed more because he knows the hell.
We have a methadone clinic here about 45 miles away, and i've been told that you have to be practically dead before they will accept you.
My husband went to a detox that was opened up (free of charge) for patients of a dr that was arrested in our area.  
It restores some of my faith in the system, lets me know that there are people that care.
The facility is one that i first contacted back 4 or so years ago, and i used to talk to a counselor almost daily.  He helped me learn so much about addiction, and today, he helped my husband get into detox.  There are those that care, and then there are the others, you just have to keep searching until you find 'the good ones'!
Good luck!
Lv Jenny

[skipper]

jennyfla:
thanks for the heads up! you know i was getting a little concerned! be careful of the methadone... do your quick taper and get it out of your life. i've seen many friends go on methadone to get thru a rough streach of no dope and just never get off it...well a few did, with a smith & wesson Rx. i'm sure there are many people who want to see the light on in your eyes, so be sure it's a quick taper!!

groovy:
the last thing you need is methadone. catch a plane and get more
bup if necessary. i'm sure everyone has heard what i think of methadone clinics and the usual variety of sadistic inept staff that run them. my pain doc presented me with an option of going on methadone instead of oxy-c. thanks but no thanks. i know i can go on and off oxy-c with regularity, and i do. some people do very well with methadone and more power too them! i don't think i have enough years left to get off of it!

anyhow keep an angel on your shoulder!
kip

[mrmichael67]

If i'm not mistaken, schlub was taking the bup injectable.  I think it was im, but i'm not sure.  He is day two off of it right now.

[skipper]

ok it's fes up time:
i have had one awful day. it started when i learned one of the
state wide ETV transmitters my university is tied into had a awful tragedy. independet cotractors were installing 6" heliax transmision line on one of our networks towers. it was for the new digital xmtr that no one yet owns a digital tv to recieve. a tower worker was hit by the heliaxical line that broke lose from a tower mounted winch hoisting it into place. hopefully he was killed instantly, because he hung by his safety tower for some 10 hours. special rescue workers  could recover his body. words fail to convey my sorrow and anger at this young man's senseless death.

then i got to check out some work independent cotractors did in the library. never in my life have i seen such shoddy sub-stand-
ard work. after taking my own diagnostic measurements, i got to deal with the jokers who did the work. i supprised mydelf at how well i kept my cool and conducted myself as a professional. the contractor didn't. i was threatened and snarled at. in the end i got my way...small compensation though. during all of this it occured to me that i work for a big broken machine that will never be fixxed or run properly...

thank god for the 2 tabs of bup i allowed mysef today. when i got
home the calves of both my legs were in knots. my neck feels as
if some demon has been trying to twist my head off.

it was a bad day. gwh you have no corner on them, honest! on the
upside, the forum has been buzzing like it hasn't for i don't
know how long. sitting here reading it tonight took me back to
last spring and summer. hey JB, witchy woman, cindi, jennyfla,
didn't it feel real good to see the forum so vibrant, like it
used to be?

i must confess this forum has a great deal to do with me keeping
going...i could not do this day by day grind down without every-
one posting. i doubt there is enough dope to cover what this
forum has helped me to live with!!

keep an angel on your shoulder
kip
right.

[groovygirl]

i thought you were asking about taking the bup iv...i take it im.  i don't think any professional would suggest taking it im, but i don't know that for sure.

[JayRo]

Hi folx.. My best to you all.
I'm a hydrocodone addict who has been taking 5 to 6 Lorcet 10's a day for 2 years without missing a day.
This weekend I'm moving out of state and I have cut off all ties with the supplier of these drugs.
I've cut down to 3 Lorcet 10's a day for 4 days now and have not really hit the wall yet.. I'm very frightened though..
I have not talked to any doctors. I feel too ashamed to do it at this point. Reading these posts makes me feel like I'm not alone though. Not that I would wish this on anyone else.
How extreme does my habit sound to you all? What if anything should I have on hand to help in the upcoming battle?
Any help is greatly appreciated.
All the best.
J

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Yes, 50 to 60 mgs of hydrocodone is a bit much considering how much acetaminaphen(Tylenol) is concerned.  Not to worry though, many of us have taken far more and are still here!  Maybe you should have a liver profile done just to be on the safe side.  I personaly have been in "liver failure" since last October. I get all the morphine I want now just to get up and pee.  Seriously though, it gets to be not much fun anymore...when you have been given a death prognosis.

It's really good thing that you are asking for advice now because there is probably a very high liklihood that... you will be just fine!

You know, there are few times when I visit my fellow vetrans in the VA hospital here that I don't come away feeling like hell and in tears.  Like me, they were...the best we had until the "dogs of war" got hold of them with things like Agent Orange and heroine and just the plain horror of being there.

I know it mustn't be easy for any of you to remember those of us who've given the ultimate price for our way of life.  The lucky ones died in battle.(did I really say that?) Think about it! We buried my brother in law a few days ago.  He was 61.

J.B.


J.B.

[jafco]

I was taking twice that, so don't worry. I was consuming 10-12 Norco, which is also 10 mg of Hydrocodone. The only good thing about Norco is that it only contains 325 mg of Aceteminophen (Tylenol), where alot of the others like Lorcet and Vicodin contain twice that.

You are going to experience some withdrawal, but it shouldn't be anything you can't handle. I've tapered down the past two weeks by half a pill a day (at 2.5 pills now), and yes, I'm very uncomfortable, but it's better than cold turkey. As most have said in the past, your going to get flu like symptoms and you'll feel like **** for a while.

You may want to take the vitamin, amino acids, and nutrients that everyone has mentioned in this forum. You need to get some l-Tyrosine 500 mg (take 5), some B6 100 mg (take 2), a zinc/magnesium combo, manganese, copper, Vit A, Vit C, and a good multi-vitamin (once a day). This will help with the withdrawal symptoms. I'm taking these and am getting very good results. Oh yeah, get some immodium too, because your going to spend a lot of time on the tiolet. Strangley enough, I read somewhere that there are opiate receptors in your stomach, which is why your stomach will get the nasties from the withdrawal.

You really shouldn't have any problem. The most important thing is really wanting to quit. So stick with it, after 7- 10 days you should start feeling like yourself again. Get plenty of exersize, keep busy, take hot baths, and eat well if you can, it helps. You may not feel like eating, but do it anyway. If your not sleeping well try some of those over the counter sleeping aids. Try not to drink coffee or any other stimulants.

I agree with JB that you should get a liver function done. In fact, I plan on getting a complete physical done once I'm feeling well enough.

So hang in there, don't get yourself all stressed out anticipating how your going to feel. Just go with it and you will be free of this thing in no time.

Good Luck

Jafco

[angst]

I get the NIDA news letters.  They are trying to get the buprenex detox available.  The FDA is the holdup.  Down here, I'm lucky I live close to state line for methadone.  We are dry for everything.  I have to go to Alabama.  As a nurse, I knew two doctors who used buprenex IV 0.3 mg every 3-6 hours for post op  pain on their patients.  I know of 3 or more that got hooked just like the methadone.  When we find something that works, we all think it's a miracle.  No offense.  I detoxed of methadone once before and suicide never crossed my mind.  I can do it again when I am sure I won't be on the street hunting dilaudid.
Lortabs never did it for me.  Good Luck.  I like the idea of going to sleep, getting the implant, waking up detoxed.

[cindi]

Hey Kip,,,yeha  I did BUP IV   the only route it came in was Iv or IM many years ago...we used it on or surgical unit for pain control  a long time ago,  it was not controlled  not locked up in the medicine cabinet  I did it for kicks   albeit not really great kicks  take enough and ya feel ok...it is really good for pain also at the corect does which i can't remember now it has been so long ago...anyway  Groovy girl  yes  BUP is recommended to be given IM as well as sublingual...they have the pills for the SL route but i have heard of people squirting the liquid uner the tongue    i don't know if I would recommend this way but i have heard they do it... KIp,  what a hrooible tregedy about the young man,,,geez,,,i got chills when i read that...hope your toe starts feeling better....love cin...

[jafco]

Maybe you can clear something up for me about the Bup. I was under the impression that being that it is a partial agonist, (it has antagonist properties as well) that if you attempted to use more than the prescribed dose that you would experience withdrawal symptoms. I heard there also combining it with Naloxone to further prevent diversion or misuse.

I'd appreciate anyones comment about this.

Thanks

Jafco

[jennyfla]

Well you're a very important part of this forum your own self, so never forget that.
It is a buzzing, and that's a good thing.  People are here for help and support, and it's great to have a place to go to.
Late at night, i know i always have a place to come too to talk and to feel like i'm not so all alone.
Just never underestimate how important YOU are to so many too.
It's a very equal share of giving and taking here, and it's a great sense of comfort!
Just know that you're loved!  :)
Lv Jenny

[angst]

as i understand it, nubain stadol buprenex naloxone narcan are all antagonist.  if you take it with an opiate addiction, you'll go into withdrawl.  if someone knows more, let me know.  i am trying to remember my pharmacology from nursing school and nursing practice.  i also think the fewer drugs to maintain your detox the better.  it gets expensive and there is always a chance of problems when mixing.  Naloxone taking alone will keep you from feeling any opiates once you have detoxed.  i do not think it's a lot of help during detox.  Hope it helps.

[jennyfla]

When my husband went into a rehab back 4 years ago, they immediately gave him a big shot of buph.  He said he was in heaven.  He had just used outside of the facility minutes before entering.  I wonder why he felt so good and not sick.  I do know he was out within 3 days and completely off everything.  He tried to drink a beer right away (it was xmas day) and was very sick.
I just don't know exactly how that stuff works.  He goes back into that same facility in a few hours, so i'm going to find out exactly what they plan to give him and how it works.
I'm very interested.
I didn't know buph was in the same family as all those other drugs.
I was given stadol when i was in labor back 2 years ago, and i was in laa laa land and loving it.
It was great until it ran out and i felt my 9 centimeter contractions at full force.  I screamed for the epi man, NOW!!!
Very curious!
Thx
Lv Jenny

[jafco]

I was taking stadol as a nasal spray for severe migraine headaches. I agree about the la la land experience. I also was not aware it was the same class of drug as Bup.

I too am very interested in learning how this stuff really works. Anyone with any further insight please post your comments.

At this stage of the game I don't need it for detox, but was considering it for chronic pain management as a last resort. I'm going to try some drug free methods first, such as accupuncture, massage, maybe even yoga exercizes. It's worth a try.

Jafco

[JayRo]

<<Yes, 50 to 60 mgs of hydrocodone is a bit much considering how much acetaminaphen(Tylenol) is concerned.>>

Fortunately I have taken that into consideration and have had the liver tests recently for other stuff and it was OK.. Could have helped a tiny bit that I have been constantly using milk thistle which helps in that dept according to some...

<< I personaly have been in "liver failure" since last October. I get all the morphine I want now just to get up and pee. Seriously though, it gets to be not much fun anymore...when you have been given a death prognosis.>>

Damn, I don't even know what to say.. I'm so sorry.. I'm sending positive healing mind bullets your way to aid in your situation..

The kind words from you guys is a big help. I plan on sticking around here for a while to share and learn..

Day 5, feeling a bit crappier physically each day...
Thanks guys..\
J

[oh please already]

i am so lost

[GOD]

Me too!

Lost in just about everything, but I hope it is just one of those depressed funks that we all have from time to time. There always is TOMORROW!

I'll send you [Meagain] some good vibes through the computer!

Hope all is well with everybody today!

Love,
Jess

[angst]

I was concerned when you did not post on the forum for a day or so.  You said "i am  so lost".  What's going on? Maybe the forum can give you some experience, strength and hope.  I saw the doctor Tuesday, and everything is okay.  He stopped his nurses from trying to detox me.  i feel much better.  I hit my head a little while ago and i am so sleepy.  when my ex-husband comes home for lunch, I'll take a nap.  Then he can wake me before he leaves.  Safety, in case I hit is so hard that i have a concusion.   Meagain, let me know what is going on.  Angst

[falulah]

hello there everyone.  first of all i just want to say thank you to all of you.  your comments and questions have really helped me out dealing with similar issues in my own life.  but i am still at a loss of just what to do.  my friend is trying to taper off of oxycotins, and is right now down to 40mg everyother day, but my concern is that he is still snorting them.  is this doing anything?  i wish i could get him to just take it orally, so he can kick his habit sooner.  i am confused though.  he does want to stop, and he does want to taper down to 20mg every other day, but if he is still snorting them, is this doing anything to help him kick his habit?  this is really hard on me, so any advice would so be appreciated.
thank you and although i know none of you, i love you, and i wish you all the best with everything.  remember...no matter what each of us creates our own world, and the power to do so lies in all of us.  the only way you won't get what you want is if you stop trying.
f

[Witchywoman]

Hey Kip, I"m so sorry you had the day from hell yesterday....the loss of the man's life is truly tragic. Makes you just shake your head and wonder why things like that ever happen.  That is just too much to be expected to deal with in one day.

I'm also really glad to see this forum hopping and active again, and want to thank you for being here the whole time, hanging in there when it was slow for a while. You keep hope, faith and life flowing here, and for that I'm going to be forever grateful. You've been there for me and others through thick and thin and I hope we give to you as much as you give to us.

Jafco, I think you were asking about the bup for pain control. I use it a few times a week for pain control. At first I was terrified to take it, and stared at it for over a week before taking it. I had been clean from a bad hydro habit for a while and was really worried taking it would get me re addicted and or trigger the desire to use hydro again.  It did neither.  It gives me pretty good pain relief on the days when I just can't handle the pain. I have never gotten any euphoria or high from it, and since I don't take it every day I've not developed a physical dependance. It works better than ibuprofen, but not as good as hydro for pain. But, since I can't take ibuprofen and can't ever take hydro again, it is a good option for me. My Doc knows I'm on it but the HMO he is with won't let him prescribe it, as it is not on the approved forumulary for the HMO. Go figure. A med with low abuse potential is not allowed while vicodin can be prescribed like candy. I don't get it. Oi!

love,
WW

[skipper]

ww:
yes the tower accident was tragic. now it's time to get enraged.
the rest of the tower crew (whom were afraid to climb up and help
their workmate) was back at the tower to get their equipment "up
top" down. as luck would have it they were barred from the site
pending a full osha investigation. it seems they (tower crew) did
not know what they were doing, or cut corners. so..SICKUM OSHA!!!!

no debt is owed to me as my involvment with med help's forum is a
giving away to keep it sort of deal. gees, just the help you have been to me could not be repaid. best part of things around here is were all equally important. posting for the first time is a huge step of faith and courage. once done anyone is of equal importance!what's our choice anyhow? wait for the medical /pharmaceutical community? maybe asa whats his name from the dea? maybe the fda. nope, all we got is each other. looking back, i've had a good time even when all of us weren't getting along. a monumental step in my personal growth was when you and i agreed to disagree. it probably was not for you (you have your emotional health in much beter order), but it was for me. hey what say we are gonna be friends, all of us. we simply don't have a lot of
alternatives, do we?

question: i'm having a real bad neck day. my last dose of bup (2
mgs) was at 5:00 am today. how long before i can take an oxy ir?

keep an angel on your shoulder!
kip

[Witchywoman]

Heya Kip,
Gosh...I do remember the time when we agreed to disagree, but for the life of me I can't remember what the topic was. Was it something about using the term addiction to describe compulsive behavior like internet overuse or shopping etc? I remember being scared to voice a different opinion than you had, and then feeling so relieved that it didn't get in the way of our friendship. I definately still have my emotional "stuff" to work on, let me tell ya....  you know the old saying "we teach best what we most need to learn"? Just because I'm a therapist doesn't mean I've got it all together...most of us therapist have just as much if not more to work on than everyone else.

I also have to agree that we are all equally important here. The first time ever posters always are very important as well. They help keep me honest and remind me of how it was for me. I lurked here for four months before I got the guts up to post. In my early lurking days I was not at all ready to admit even to myself that I was an addict...lol..my denial was right up there.
What a relief it was to get it all out and have you all right here, making me feel like I was a decent person, rather than the scum of the earth that I felt like at the time.

As far as when you can take an oxy, if you took the sublingual bup at 5am, you should be fine to take an oxy now. I have read that the properties of bup that cause withdrawals with other opiates don't kick in unless you have taken at least 1 mg of bup. so it depends on how many sublinguals you took. If you took only 2, then you are fine. If you took 10, making 1mg, you should wait 12 hours. This is all according to what I read, I have no personal experience with it, but I trust the information I read.  Someone on another board I post on wrote that they have taken hydro only 6 hours after a small dose of bup and were fine.

Hope your neck pain lowers, and thanks for being there. Give your sweet wife a hug for me!
love,
WW

[jafco]

It appears you are both taking Bup for pain management. It also appears you are taking it sublingually <sp>. I was given the impression by someone on this board that only injectable was available in the US. I recall they said that the tabs are only available overseas. I'm confused, are you taking tabs? Is it the tabs that are sublingual? Or is it provided in ampules? Can you clear this up for me? Also, what is the cost if I can indeed get it prescribed?

Thanks so much

Jafco

[jennyfla]

Hi and welcome!
I'm so happy to hear that this board has given you some sense of peace and support.  It really does help enormously to understand all the true horrors of addiction, and this board will really show you and teach you many things because this board is full of people from all different places and each have their own unique story to tell about how addiction affects their everyday life.
Your friend is very lucky to have someone like yourself, who cares and is very concerned about his/her use of oxycontin.  This drug is nothing to fool around with that's for sure.
You really didn't say why your friend is using the drug to begin with.  Is it for pain management?
Even when a person is in pain and is prescribed the drug for a reason, some people still want to break free of it because they feel they are loosing a part of their inner selves and feel they are slaves to the drug.  The drug can be a lifesaver for some, people that wouldn't have a life without it because they are in such pain.
If your friend is using for the purpose of getting high, then yes, no doubt about the fact that it will only get worse and worse as time goes on.
Opiates take a hold on you so tight that you have to fight for your life to get out of it's clutches.  It will take a strong desire to want to be clean for the person and for no one else.  Also a strong support system is required in order to remain clean because the craving for the drug is very powerful.
The using everyother day won't last long, it will turn into a daily need soon because it's that powerful.  Your friend needs to understand that oxys are a timereleased drug and crushing the drug makes it much stronger because all the drug is released at once.  Many people have died because they feel that one little pill can't possible hurt them, but when it is crushed, it's no longer one tiny pill.
Maybe your friend can read posts from this board so he/she is familiar with the horrors that go along with abusing oxys.
If this person isn't willing to take the necessary steps to stop using, then there isn't anything you can say or do to make him/her stop.  It has to come from within, and hopefully before too much damage and many things are lost because of it's use.
It's great to have a friend such as yourself, but remember, if you become too involved, you will end up sick too.  The emotional roller coaster that you get on when you battle to save a person on drugs is a very long and tortures ride.  Just be careful and remember that there is only so much you can do.
Your friend is lucky to have you.
Good luck!
Jenny

[oh please already]

how do you say thank you for all that you and all the other heros who saw hell and came back,I do everynight i watch my daughter sleep in a safe warm bed,if it wasnt for the ones who fight the good fight,i shudder to think what or where we would all be.So if noone ever said it outloud I am saying it THANK YOU  to all the troops.Right now im having a hard time,i too think that sometimes there are worse things then begin dead,but Im trying to remeber that at least theres a chance for things to imorove as long as im breathing,i just wish that the words would ring truer and stronger right dow,im having a problem seeing the light,**** i cant even feel it and my hands on fire.

[oh please already]

im sorry to posion the thread,im keeping quiet because it seems everyones doing good and i wont be the one to bring anyone down,I started posting because i wanted to say kind words to jb and instead i wound up putting bad vibes ,right now im just negative energy sorry

[mrmichael67]

Did you have any luck with the info I gave you?  Please let me know.  Thanx

[Witchywoman]

meagain, please don't stop posting.  We need you as much as you need us. There is no need to worry about bringing 'negativity' to the board..we are here to listen, help, and support you. Trust me, in the begining for me, before I got clean, many many of my posts were filled with despair and depression and hopelessness.  And it was only by being able to write about exactly how I was feeling that people here were able to help me, and hold my hand while I walked the path the better health and freedom.  Please don't censure yourself or feel you can't post when you are down. That is when you most need to post.  We have folks here at all stages of drug addiction...some just starting to deal with recovery, some who have been clean a while, and all stages in between, and we are all necessary and important to each other, no matter what.  So ...you are important and all your thoughts and feelings are welcome here.  What's up? Talk to us!

jafco, I take the sublingual tabs.  You can only get the injectables in this country, and they cost about $400.00 a month for the medication alone. The doses in the injectable are much much higher. To be honest, I wouldn't want to take the higher doses the injectable come in. One .2 mg sublingual takes enough of my pain away to function for a whole day. I can't imagine taking more, but my tolerance is low. I'm sure that people who take it for detox need higher doses.  I'm not really comfortable with the way I have get the bup, but it is the only I know of to get it, overseas, and it has been a godsend for me for pain relief. I was taking 2500mgs of ibuprofen a day, for many months, and it caused a GI bleed, so my Doc said to not take nsaids at least for a while.

I hope that helps.

love,
WW

[angst]

Witchywoman,  that is a hell of a lot of ibuprofen.  no wonder you got a gi bleed.  i'm glad the buprenex detox is go good and for chronic pain also.  i wish we had that option where i live.  i am not independently wealthy enough to fly to another state to get it on a regular basis.  so i'll stick with the methadone.

Meagain,  i was concerned when you stopped posting for a couple of days.  i need your words of encouragement.  you welcomed me on this forum and the deed was appreciated.  keep on posting. all of us have negative issues, too.  the medication i have to take when i have bronchitis (because i'm asthmatic) hypes me, and i'm not a speed freak.  i hate speed.  i have enough nervous energy to start with.  i have to find a job.  today or tomorrow, back to hitting the pavement.  it is hard to find something that pays half the equivalency of my nursing career.  i am also an inventor and hope to open a coffee house here one day.  i just do not have the contacts.  one person at primamerica has been courting me for a job, but i do not want anyone stepping on my ideas.  i've lost two already.

[groovygirl]

i've tried the tabs before, and they do nothing for me.  this dr. at mcclean (pretty well-known hosp) told me that you can remain on bup for a long time with no ill effects.  he said that if you take a huge amount of it and will not o.d.  he also thinks it is one of the safest meds around and should be prescribed as easily as prozac.  i really wish he would take me on as a patient.

do you get them at healthhindus.com? just curious.

[angst]

Is the buprenex available online?  I've checked out some of the pharmacy sites, but never took them too seriously.  I have a doctor so I really did not need anything.  I may check out that conversion chart if the buprenex is available online.  Just how expensive are we talking about?  Help if you can without disclosing too much.  I'm on 90mg of methadone.  I'd have to check out changing to buprenex.

[tlk]

The bup I took was just under the skin, not IM or IV. Although the package says to do it IM, my doc prescribed diabetes needles and I just gave myself shots in my abdomen; it seemed to last longer that way, slower getting into your system.
As far as IV, it says you have to do it for 2 minutes to be safe. Since the needles I had wouldn't work IM (I think, I never tried though), the under the skin was perfect. It's actually .3mg, and people I talked to who took it sublingually took 8mg -- big difference. That's just where I'm at. There were several pharmacies here that sell it, and it cost me about $100 for 45 ampules.
I never found anywhere online to buy it, or I would have done so. But I did talk to my doctor, and he said you can get it legally for personal use only across the border, in Mexico, as several of his patients do. I live in Texas, but the border is a good 6 hr drive, so I never did it. Since I'm no longer in chronic pain (except the headaches), I'm trying to stay off everything. Plus, even the bup made me gain a lot of weight. After detox I lost 15 pounds in 2 weeks; happy, happy, I'm back to normal!
Can someone please tell me about the recipe? I need that energy!
tlk

[angst]

Do you think we all have mental powers greater than we know or use?  I hate to ask about wicca, but I've always felt cold chills up my spine when something happens in the news.  I forbid anything to come to me.  It frightens me and goes against my religion.  Sometimes, I realize there is not anything frightening there, and yes, I should open myself up to spirits.
I just worry there are not all good spirits.  I would not know what to do with a bad one.  I have dabbled in wicca, but i'm very naive.

[tlk]

Please scratch my question on the recipe, my head's scrambled but I did finally read down and find the info. Thanks all.

[jennyfla]

Hang in there, it's ok!
You just talk it out all you want to here, don't dissapear!
If we all had wonderful things to talk about, there would be no sense having this board, so you pour your little heart out!
Just wanted you to know that we're here for you!
Lv Jenny

[Witchywoman]

Hi groovy, I guess I just have a very low tolerance, which is new for me..lol  I used to have to take 200mgs a day of hydro to just feel normal. I only take the bup a few times a week at the most,  and sometimes go weeks without it. I have learned to just handle my back pain differently, and just to tolerate it as much as I can.  I wish I could use hydro responsibly, but I can't, I know I can't, so just need to develop a new approach to accepting the limitations that my back pain gives me. I've had to mostly give up belldyancing, which was my life's creative focus before my surgery.  I still teach, but can't perform every week like I used to. It's been hard, but I find other ways to be creative.
My spine doc told me the other day that he recommends I get fusion surgery, but I said no. I've just heard too many horror stories about it. I'd rather live with the chronic pain that I know than open up that an of worms.  I know too many people who were made a lot worse by getting fusion.
I'm not comfortable posting where I get the bup, as medhelp asks us to not post online pharmacies here, and I completely understand why that is their policy.  I'm torn about the online pharm thing. I think they really help people in certain situations a lot, and there is a place for them, no doubt about it.  But I wish I could get the bup tabs from my doctor and not have to go that route.

angst, if you'd like to talk with me about Wicca, feel free to write me at ***@****   I'd be happy to share what I know and I have no agenda to convince or convert anyone.  I respect everyone's beliefs, and all religions.

love,
WW

[oh please already]

thanks to everyone who takes the time to say but what can i say?im a lair,a cheat with no intrerity,i dont want to insult anyone by even taking time when so many have problems they cant control and i cant even control myself- i wish you all peace and love

[oh please already]

i kept complaining and whining about what a **** my husband is but the truth is its me,thinking about things ive done,i cant even type/tell them-just thinking keeps me crying- how did i get here and what have i done?im worse then that crack addict ,at least you could see they were a danger,but no one suspected me and i hurt so many   there is no excuse and im still a liar and cheat

[angst]

meagain- boy do i empathize with you.  when i kicked on my own, cold turkey except for my xanax, i went through terrible guilt.
i bankrupted my family's bankaccount twice.  i spent grocery money on drugs off the street.  i just thought it was monopoly money.  i was really messed up.  my child would not come home or speak to me for months the last time i relapsed.  she is just now coming around.  she treats me as an equal or less.  i cannot demand respect when i did wrong by her so many times.  she found me in the kitchen floor when i od'd.  my ex-husband is having to consider selling part of the property he owns and our newest car.
it is all because of my drug use.  even my methadone cost us money we do not have to spend on drugs.  we all go through that guilt.  but deep down is a survival mode if we just let go.  it will take over and help you make it.  i learned to never say never.  i did terrible things to get and use my drugs.  you are not alone.  try to get outside of that guilt.  watch tv or read or just let go.  i'm sorry you feel so bad.

[groovygirl]

hi - you are not the only one who has lied, cheated and stolen, so don't feel alone in that.  everyone was so surprised to find out i had this deep, dark secret.  no one really suspected, because i am a good actress i guess.  i probably appear to be this upstanding citizen, but i too have done all the things a lot of desperate addicts have done to get their fix.  i am not any different from someone who buys drugs on the street - i lied to many doctors in order to keep my supply up.  i spent a lot of money and maxed my credit cards - we could have used it for much better things.  fortunately, i decided i needed help before we were in too much trouble financially.  at the rate i was going, i could have easily bankrupted my family.

i have so much guilt, it eats me alive.  guilt is a useless emotion, unless it keeps us from doing those things again.
even before all this, i constantly wondered if i was a good enough mother...everyone said how great i was doing, but i always second-guessed myself.  now since going thru all this, the guilt is so heavy i can barely stand it at times.

all i can say about that is to try to learn from it - that's what i'm struggling with...keep plugging along...you can make it.

[tlk]

Ladies, don't be so hard on yourself. When I read your posts, it's like looking in a mirror. I can think that y'all are bad, it was the addiction that got ahold of you but you are doing something about that. You are fighting this thing -- not everyone can or will. I lied, stole, cheated, and I am supposed to be this great person. It all went to **** on New Year's Day, now I have no friends, no job, I'm lucky to have my husband and kids. I left him and rented this dinky house, when we were in a $300,000 huge home with an apartment for my mother-in-law. Of course we couldn't afford both places. My husband heard things about me that were awful, I can't even talk about yet. I told him to move in with me, and he did and agreed to not pursue that stuff. So we are alienated from our friends. I got a summons today to court for a bad check I wrote to a pharmacy monthts ago; didn't even know it was out there still. Now I could be arrested by the very people I used to work for.
The point to all this is that I look at all of you as strong, you can get through this, but you have to talk about it. I look at myself as a failure, though. I have closed off part of my mind and refuse to even think about these things yet. I know I need to tell someone, but I just can't. I hope you see that you are good and strong, this is temporary and will get better, I swear. And for once I'm not lying. tlk

[oh please already]

what do you do when sorry is not near enough?when you have changed the course of someones life that was inocent? that believed in you ? and do u know what  ? I still cant stop these f--king pills,i dont want to either so how selfish of a loser am i? I talk a good line but i am a fake,so maybe it is better to be invsable,because thats what i was whining about,how no one notices me,how alone i am and yat im posion to those near and what about my daughter she has no choice,shes a baby.I do the good mother thing but im killing her everyday and i cant stop.so what do you do when sorry is never gonna be anything that matters?

[oh please already]

i can not believe all the rage im feeling,i am just so     f---king angry,smashing walls.I dont know why,i just am.In ballet school yesterday emma threw ans i mean beaned a toy at her teachers head,she has never been a agresive child but now shes getting that from me too im sure,For the 1st time in my childs life i spanked her,i have NEVER laid a hand on her body in anger since the day she was born.Not that i beat her it was 2 swats on her butt,not leaving even a red mark but the look of i dont know what on her face is just one more thing i will never forgive myself for.she was angry because of me and i punished her when it was my fault just like everything else that child suffers because of me.I am just so raged

[angst]

All users who are mothers go through this gut wrenching, all consuming guilt.  Your daughter is better with you as her mother.  Even when we do things we do not understand and see our daughters do the same things we do not understand, we are a part of them and they are a part of us.  Isabel, my kid, has seen so much of me that she hates me sometimes.  She says that she does not hate me but is scared I will go back to drugs again.  When I got the money today, she had the same thought I had.  She is scared for me and of me.  I do not like that, but I have come to accept it.  You are not that bad.  If you stop putting yourself down, I'm sure you can think of many things you've done right by her.

[gnarled]

Hey WW. I was really upset about your leaving the other forum. You were the reason I stayed as a lurker there and were so helpful and kind that I have actually had success in recovery so far.It was hard because my timing happened to be the EXACT time of all the insanity. Figures that was the week I chose but,I went through it anyway. You were my original anchor and I m so happy to have found you and your wisdom again.I didnt want to bother you at the time so I just kind of used what I had learned as a long time lurker.What a waste all that time hanging out and I finally gathered the couragre and everyone was gone.Oh well, I still lurk and have actually written a couple of times which is very difficult for me.Its a great bunch of people again.Big step for me.I still miss all the old regulars who helped me in my lurking days with their insight ,humor, frankness and support. But THANKS for all your knowledge and insight.Its nice to find you again. I miss all those folke very much.Where did they all go? Is Thomas still around?I hope I ll be able to bump into you here .Best of luck to you and all of us using these boards for support.

[deke.1]

wow i must say it's nice to stumble across this page, i've been trying to kick heroin for a while now and am finally just so sick of being sick more than I'm well. It does seem that no matter what pills from methadone to xanax I'm taking that when I stop taking everything there is still that long return to feeling normal and being able to sleep etc....  I do know that I can make it and that anyone posting in that is sick can get through it. I was "clean & sober" for over three yrs. It's not impossible. But one of the consequences of relapsing is that it always gets steadily harder to go through and it doesn't take 3 days to kick like when I was 21. It takes a good solid month to get back to where I can sleep 8 hrs. straight, and to have a solid bowel movement. Thats one of the more attractive things I can look forward to. If you are detoxing with med.s you will be more comfortable than going cold turkey just be carefull you don't end up strung out on something else. Eventually we have to get off everything and it just prolongs the agony. GOOD LUCK to everyone I hope people that get through this will take time to post back in and encourage those that still have the bridge to cross in front of them and not behind them and remind us it can be done.

[tlk]

Angst is right; every mother who uses hates herself. I was detoxing when my middle daughter came home and said she was entering me in this damn "What-a-Mom" contest as the best mom ever. I started bawling. I called my sister and told her what a horrible person I am. My house was a disater; I'd quit my job; I'd spent the past two years in bed or at work; my kids aren't even in ballet, forget soccer or anything else! I couldn't stop bawling, hating myself, felt like I really ruined things.
But then it got better, gradually. I still hate that all this has happened. But if good can come from it, I will take it.
Yes, I worked too much and I'm not domestic and I don't cook and I hate to clean. But I'm also a very loyal friend who will do anything for someone; I cried at almost every fatality I went to, which was many. I followed up on families later to help whenever I could. In other words, I may feel like a loser but I do have some good qualities. I may have screwed up majorly but I'm trying to make amends; trying to be good. But you can't be 100% until you are better yourself. Something got you in this situation, and your screwed up brain chemistry got you addicted. But you are fighting the good fight to win, and you can win. I wish I could reach out and grab you and give you a big hug, so I'm sending a cyber one. It helps to talk, tell us how horrible you feel. It helps me to help others, so think of it as reverse therapy if you want!
By the way: One spanking -- don't sweat it, you're only human! I give that many every other day to my brood! tlk

[Jack Frost]

Hey WW, how are you? Just wanted to weigh on part of this thread. First, hang in there meagain. So many of us are going thru what you are going thru. Is there anyway you can get some face to face support in your community. I know how much you care about your daughter and it must be twice as hard to deal with the drugs and her needs. All I can say is it gets better the less you take and your relationship with your daughter will only grow.

WW - I am no doctor, but trust me on this one as someone who has been in the medical profession for almost 30 years - the success rates on fusions are not very good. They say about 40 percent but I would say that is BS. It is the main cause for "failed back syndrome" which is true CP and a nightmare. If you will email me I have some books you may be interested in based on yoga/ alexander method etc.( did I tell you about this before?). The book is called Pain Free by Peter Egoscue and you can get a good price at amazon on a paper back. I think he has a clinic and he has treated Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan. He has a set of stretches, body re-orientations that take about 20 minutes in the morning. They do wonders for my pain. Email em if you want more info ( I could have added it to my recent amazon order :--)

I also would like to echo one part of the above thread, this place remains a stable source of support and it's inspiring to see all the constructive care, not to mention the humor.

Peace

jF

[OxyDout]

Don't beat yourself up, I was spanked (BEATEN!!) EVERYDAY by my sober parents and I am the biggest mamma boy you will ever meet, there isn't anything I wouldn' do for my parents, so don't sweat it. You will break out of this routine.  If I can, well then anyone can, and I'm making a huge step today, I'm starting a savings account, I will probably only start at around $600 but its a start...............KEEP YOUR HEAD UP, YOUR FALLING FORWARD ATLEAST..........

[oh please already]

what can i say but thank you,anghts,you always seem to be there,gwh-how do you do it?if im falling forwrd,your flying,and everyone else thanks.im feel better today,i finally slept and i didnt take the recipe-my husband pointed out that it seems to make me "tense"did anyone else notice that?maybe because like the addict i am i took more thinking if 1s good 10 must be better.I know a few others spoke about how it made them jittery,I dont know what happened.I swear,I was feeling grear-had made my plans-gave my husband my pills to taper but alas hes an addict to and ate them up and screwed my taper.I cant blame him for the fall though,because i wasnt feeling so bad,it wasnt like i needed the pills,i was having minimal leg giggles but still old habits die hard.  I went to a new pain doc and she introduced herself by saying she doesnt believe in narcotics,aftermy appointmentshe told me my problem was i didnt have enough and tried to increase my dose from oxy from 40 to 80mg,i told her no and explained how i was so afraid of creeping and that i dint want to take more so she wrote my usual.Sometimes i wonder whats up with that ,am i dieing and no one will tell me because doctors always seem to think that i have to have much more pain then i do and yet when ever i feel sick they see no problem.i will never take those 80mg tabs the idea freaks me,look how easy it was to get out of control with 40? now when i run out i have to take 8 perc to equal the dose,i cant image tring to cover 16( and yet there   have been times ive put 20 in my mouth)Heres something ive been wondering-and not to insult anyone but we all lie to get narcotics at times so why cant those of you who want burp just tell your md u want it for pain and not mention begin an addict?not to encourage lieing but weve done it for less.myself i have issues with latex allergies and syringes and most injects have it plus i do not trust myself with a needle-i could like it,i know i would .there is a rehab here in long island called eastern long island hospital that is running a 1 day dettox with a "NEW drug "and they claim high sucess,you just have to lay out 5600 dollors and poof,i wish i had the money but i am begining to relize that much of my addiction is mental,more then i relized.WELL everywhich way ive turned in the last 4 weeks has been a deadend,so i think that i will have to look to myself,now if i could do right by me id be set,funny how it would be no problem for me to help a stranger,hell i d enjoy it,feel good and proud and yethelping myself is just too tiring,why is helping someone else inpowering and helping you so drainging?thanks again for begin there as you all aways are,sorry for the typing,im so tired im just pecking away with 1 finger.

[Witchywoman]

Hiya gnarled, I'm glad to see you posting!  This forum, right here, is where I first stumbled upon the people who helped me get clean.  I lurked here for months before getting the guts to post and eventually I went from denial to recovery. I'm glad I've been helpful to you, but I'm even more glad that you've taken the step to join in. I hope you stick around!

Jackfrost, thanks for the info, I'm curious about those stretches. I already do yoga and pilates everyday. Are these different from what I'm already doing? And there is no way in hell that I am agreeing to get fusion surgery. No way.  My doc said that if in a year after my last surgery I was still in pain, it was 'my only option'. I don't buy it, and won't do it, no matter what. That is where I draw the line. I honestly would rather live the rest of my life in my current level of pain than risk fusion. I've read a lot about it and spoken to many about it. Just doesn't seem worth the risk, never mind the fact that it would mean I'd have to take pain killers again post surgery. The need for meds is not the reason I'm refusing the surgery...the history of failed fusions and creation of worse problems from it is.

thanks!
love,
WW

[tlk]

You are doing great. I don't know if I could get clean if anyone I hang around with was a user. Luckily for me, I did mine in the closet and no one at all in my life uses anything. My husband was always this big disapproving looming figure. I worked with a bunch of cops. My friends didn't even really know. If I were in your place, with a husband who did the same thing, I think that would be 100 times harder. I had an ex many years ago who introduced me to street drugs, which I experimented with but never really got into. It was so easy to do it when you had approval, though! So I think you're doing great, especially with all the obstacles.
The doctors, I think, don't know what to do with us so they write a script. That gets us out of their office and out of mind. Just my opinion.
Keep your chin up, you sound much better today! tlk

[oh please already]

i am an addict, my husband is an addict,he is also a recovering alohlic and i am very proud of that hes been sober since my daughter was born,i know he just subtertudeed one drug etc etc but  when he was doing both he was nasty,my biggest promblem is my mother who is also a major pill head,and quite ill.We are not close,she only seems to call for a loan but she is quite ill really and i get consumed with guilt when i know she is so ill to ignore her.sometimes just when my house seems to be on the right path,rob and i both agree to stop and reduce shesll start calling for rides to md and how do i let my ill old mother walk in bad weather for miles to get drugs when i know the horrors of withdrawl myself and so shell give me a few for my troubles and the cycle go on .I truly hate the women,cant tell u the times she sold me out but she is my mother  so what do you do ?

[angst]

I agree that I would be in trouble if my ex-husband was an addict, too.  He has yanked my chain and pulled me back from the edge and out of the abyss many, many times.  You are a strong woman to live with him and help out your mother.
I pray, hope, and wish that I will not ever go back to using on the street.  I am going to drop to 80mg on my methadone next week.  With you alls' support, it is not a hard decision.  I am strong and mean about drugs.  I do not want them around me.  I will not socialize with my old using buddies.  That may sound bad, but anyone who offers me drugs is not a friend.  I put boundaries on my sister and brother (he is 11 years older than I am).  He does not live too close to me.  I love his daughter, but she also sets limits with him.  He is also in denial about his substance abuse.  Even when my kid is mean and my ex is no help, it is better than living with another addict for me.  
Meagain, you are a better person than I.  My father was bipolar and an addict and alcoholic.  He was in my life from my birth until I was about 12.  His behavior scared me so bad I had to marry a straight arrow.  He would pull knifes on me and shoot as we ran away from him.  I still went to see him after the divorce of my mother and him, out of respect.  It is like that here in the deep south.  I was only not afraid of him, once he was in his casket.

[tlk]

I sympathize with the mom thing. Maybe tell her before you go that you DO NOT want anything except for her to get better. Easier said, because of course we tell ourselves that we will take just a few.
We've supported my mother-in-law for 5+ years. It's hard because she's very difficult to live with. When I left my husband several months ago I rented a house for me and my girls. We quickly got back together and now she's living on her own, but we give her money. I think a lot of our marital problems came from having her constantly there (she lived with us). Also all my friends became her friends; literally, she talks to them every day and now I never do. She gossiped with them about my private life, my problems, and even if I was going out to a movie with them, she invited herself. I was best friends with these women for 14 years and now I never even speak to them. I have NO friends left here, which is why we are thinking of moving; nothing left for me, in this town I love and have lived in for 20 years.
Just wanted to sympathize. You feel tremendous responsibility for a parent, but they can also drag you down. I'm sorry. tlk

[row]

Hi everyone, I stumbled upon this forum while looking up detox etc...I am trying the heck to detox on my own. I just went out and purchased the recipe. I went from using vicodin off and on for a year to oxy the past 6 months off and on, mostly on, and then the past two weeks I was using 4-6 80 mg tabs a day for 2 weeks.

This past week has been hell. I tapered way down to 1 then a half but It seems that the pill only worked for about 2-3 or so hours then once I get home its withdraw city until the morning when I take some to get into work.

Today no oxy but I needed 4 vicodin to get myself to work, I own my own business so I have to be there. The 4 worked till about 2:00, then the symptoms set in again mostly fatigue, irritability and sadness. I got home and took 2 percocet and 2 percodan so I could finish off the day. Those obviously are not as powerful as oxy but did I go backward again?

I hope now to take nothing until the morning except unisom. Then I will take either 2 percs or 4 vics and continue to taper down from there. Now that I have the recipe I hope I can go a little longer each day.Tappering is good but you still have symptoms but I guess not as bad as cold turkey. When I get down to 1 vic or 1 perc then a half then I finally stop is it going to hit me bad???????

Or will it be mild???? since I tappered? I planning on tappering down till the holiday at the end of the month then stop, Iam closed for about 5-6 days then and I can stay in if needed.

So far so good, I just dont want to go backward. Everyone has been great on this site!!!! It has helped me sooooo much. I will be here for the long haul, and I am aquiring that angel on my shoulder!

Peace

[MsKat5150]

I have a question and hope someone can help.  I was coming up on 7 years and blew it on OxyContin.  Went to my Doc he apologized as he has no knowledge on the what to do.  Referred me to some agencies which at this point I cannot go to.  Long story.  Anyway,  Was taking 2 to 3 OxyContins (80mg) a day.  Either IV or chewed.  Today was my last day of any Oxy's.  1/2 tab this am and then I took a percocet at 5 then 1 1/2 methadone.  I have 13 methadone left.  Any suggestions as to the best way to taper off with the methadone.  I know there are may different ways to do this but this is the best that I have available.  My doc gave me Norco and said he doubted that they would even touch any withdrawal symptoms.  He was leary of giving me any more oxys and I told him that I did not want any, let alone try to taper off with those things.  I have no control when it comes to those>  Anyway open for suggestions of how many to take and when.  A friend told me to do 2 in the am then one in the evening for a couple days then 1 and 1 then 1/2 and 1/2 etc.  What do ya think?

[angst]

Hi ( i just spelled hi "high" ) I've detoxed off methadone before.  They have a strong half life.  I'd take two a day for 2 days, 1 a day for 2 days , then break them in half for the rest.  Save the oxy's or percs or whatever you have, you many not need them.  If you feel miserable, that is what you are supposed to feel.  If we forget the w/d's , we'd all be relapsing.  I hope the rest of your oxycodone does not get you started again.  It might help with sleep though.  Coming off you will not want to eat and cannot sleep except for a couple of hours here and there.  The BRAT diet is good for the stomach (runs), and you will need immodiumAD.  I only took the immodium when I had to go out, because I felt the runs helps rid my system of the methadone.  I kept hydrated with gatorade.  I need the potasium and sodium.  If your electrolytes get off balance, you will act funny, then you could have cardiac problems.  Stay hydrated, eat what you can, and do not try to do too much.
Good Luck

[tlk]

If the stomach problems get too bad, maybe your doctor can prescribe something. That helped me, not having to deal with the runs on top of everything else. If they'll let you detox with phenobarb that helps, clonidine too. My doctor calls it the "cocktail": phenobarb, clonidine, robinul or bentyl (for stomach), remoron (sp) or doxepin to sleep. The stomach stuff totally helped me. I was on it all for almost a week, although the first time only for 4 days and then no clonidine (I have very low blood pressure).
I hate the idea of taking all these drugs to get off something else, but it is very short term; he only gave me a 3-4 days' worth at a time and I was so scared of the w/ds that I never took more. Also took a very, very small amount of the opiate along with it. Good luck. tk

[rowanshyne]

J.B.
You wrote, "I know it mustn't be easy for any of you to remember those of us who've given the ultimate price for our way of life. The lucky ones died in battle.(did I really say that?)"

A lot easier on us to remember than you I'm sure.  In case no one has ever told you - Thank you for what you did for us, thank you for what you gave of yourself for us, and thank you for what you lost for us.
Yes, I do remember.


Skipper
Man, what a lot of pain, inside and out.  Bet you look cute in those sandals, though!
Okay, I'll bite, take your mind of the lousy stuff and tell us about the Junkies in the Bushes.
Sending hope and strength to you and your lady.

gwh
I know I'm about a week late for you.  I so hope everything has started to go more smoothly for you.  You're really buffing up those "clean and sober" muscles.  You *know* exercise is the only way to get strong.  I think you're doing it.

Meagain
Stop, now.  My daughter spent the first six years of her life watching me fall in love with narcotics.  She rode in her little car seat from pharmacy to pharmacy.  She watched my erratic emotions.  She watched me quit and when she found herself "hooked", she told me, "I thought, Mama could make this stop.  Mama taught me everything she knows.  *I* can make this stop, too."  She's 21 years old, clean and sober and she *is* alla that and a bag of chips!
So stop.  Beating yourself up is giving you an excuse to use because, "What's the point, anyway?"
You aren't a farce, you aren't a loser, you're one of us and there is only no hope if you *insist* there's no hope.

Thank you *all* for still being here when I was able to get back to the board.

Wren

[row]

HI everyone,

It is a real ***** to taper, I did not realize. I take about 4 pecocet and 7 percodan a day and still feel like ****, tired, shaking, and irratible. Iam doing the recipe too. Is it because my body wants the oxycotin that it was used to (was taking it for several months and heavy the last 2 weeks) and the percodan and percocet are a milder version and not time released??????

I have been tapering for 1 1/2 weeks and it kinda sucks when should I stop cold, when I get down to 3-4 a day or 1-2 a day of the other ****?

Iam confused and I would like to stop today but
I REALLY HAVE TO FUNTION so that is the only reason I keep using in small amounts. I have about 2 weeks off coming on May 20th.

I think I should wait till then when I finally go cold so that way, I dont have to work and can lock myself in. I do plan to tapper till then. What does anyone think, I am really confused because its 1 1/2 weeks of feeling less than 40% not to metion beating up on myself and the panic attacks I get 20X a day.

I cant wait till the 20th but it actually puts a smile on my face.

Any suggestions?

Thank you soooooo much and LOTS OF COURAGE TO EVERYONE

BE BOLD AND MIGHTY FORCES WILL COME TO YOUR AID!

[angst]

I continued on the needle until a Tuesday, then went to the methadone clinic on a Wednesday.  I had to work also, waiting tables at a really nice restaurant.  So I had to look good and have my faculties with me.  I was almost always a functional addict except for a couple of times when I lost it over spending  tremendous amounts of money on dilaudid.  People on the post will give you different advice.
I say if you have to take the oxycodone in percs or low dose oxycontin to keep your job, then go ahead until May.  Just realize that no addict can use successfully.  You are taking a chance by doing it that way.  You could get busted.  You might forget about getting clean.  
I believe some of the people on this forum got clean while they were working with something for the symptoms of withdrawl, not the drugs themselves.  That is the safest and surest way.
Good Luck.

[row]

Thank you so much for your comment. I now have a date set in which I go into detox for 3-5 days(May 22nd) then come home and finish it through. I really want to quit Angst. I already lowered the dose of the percs today and will continue slowly.

That must of sucked waiting tables, did you just take enough to get through the night or all day? You are right, about what you said, but I hate feeling like ****(going on about 2 weeks 4th day no oxy) thats why I want to get clean, plus I dont want to further damage my body.

The Percs really dont do much, why is that? and why do I feel like I just did speed when I take 4 or so, is it because my body wants the oxy and is still withdrawing from that and the high dose?????? You would think the percs would at least help me sleep!!!!!!!!! I have to take 3-4 unisom and I will then sleep for only 3-4 hours.The anxiety, the shakiness, the lack of consentration I HATE THIS!

Anyway I will keep on this forum, it is great to talk with others about this. Never thought I was an addict, but I  woke up one day I really woke up one day and it scared me to death to look in that mirror, I dont want to go back.

Thanks!

[groovygirl]

maybe you can get your dr. to prescribe a few restorils....they really have helped me get back into a habit of getting rem sleep every night...i'm dreaming again, which i hadn't been doing for i don't even know how long.  my doc said that opiates really get in the way of getting into the rem cycle...the deep, deep dreaming sleep cycle that we all need.  i also now drink camomile (sp?) tea at night...believe it or not, it really helps relax me - good luck to you.

[angst]

row, i shot dilaudid before work, and if i had to work a double, i would shoot again at work in the bathroom.   my final relapse i kept it down to half of a 4mg tablet at a time.  i shot 3 to 4 times a day, but i did not let it get way out there like my second relapse when i spent 1200 and 1300 dollars, $2500 on dilaudids.  since my second relapse that let to 2 more rehabs and my surrendering my nursing license, i've kept a better hold on my using and recovery.

groovygirl,  watch those restorils.  they can be habit forming, but if you have insomnia, i understand why you take them.  i think you will take them responsibly.  you seem to keep it together.  i enjoy your posts.  keep on keeping on.  ava

[groovygirl]

you don't know me very well....hahah - i haven't been responsible about most medications i have taken...up until recently anyhow.  actually the only meds that hold an interest for me are opiates.  i really have to force myself to take the sleeping pills - i don't even take them every night anymore.  when i first started detoxing from everything, i took one every night for about two weeks.  it helped me so much...now it's only occassional.

[angst]

I'm glad to hear that about the sleeping pills.  I am still learning all of you.  I think I belong to this forum.  I also have had major problems in the past controlling my opiate usage.
The thought of no dilaudid was not a choice for me during my using days.  I hocked what I had to and forged a few checks to get my dope.  Luckly, the people I forged their checks, did not want me in jail.  An angel has been on my shoulder for a long, long time.  I believe in guardian angels anyway.  Thanks for posting.  I wonder if you checked out the adderall (adderrall) topic today.

[groovygirl]

i didn't check out the adderall (adderrall) topic...should i have??  do you think i have add or adhd or whatever it is?

just so you know, there are a lot of people out there and some here who are contemplating methadone.  it "saved" you, so i still do not understand why you keep saying it is not for most addicts.  there are so many people who continuously fail to stay on the wagon...most of the people who are interested in methadone research it to some extent and know what they are getting in to. i just really wonder why you keep saying that it would not also "save" some other addict in need out there.

[angst]

Most addicts I know and people I see at the methadone clinic dose at the highest dose the doc will allow them.  I do not believe that is responsible dosing.  When you compare buprenex or oxycodone to methadone, methadone is much stronger.  A lot of addicts cannot stop when the cravings stop.  They want to keep getting a buzz.  If you keep raising the dosage often, you will keep a buzz for a good while.
If an addict knows what she or he is getting into, or if the addict is totally out of control, I think methadone will help them.  It has a worse rap than I have experienced.  The withdrawl is longer than with  dilaudid or most other opiate due to a long half life.  But anyone can do it without going crazy.
You do not have to switch meds detoxing.  The methadone will take you down.  I did not do it alone, because I had a super NA group to help me.
If an addict wants off their extreme habit, if the addict has done illegal things to get their dope, methadone is safer.  People who jump off at 100mg or so  are crazy to begin with, so the normal withdrawl is not something you cannot do.  I just want addicts to know what they are getting into before they start on methadone.  A good clinic is better than the 10mg tablets. I''ve had both.  Good Luck.  If you choose methadone,
I think you will be okay.  You have a good mind.   Ava
   On the adderall (adderrall) post is a new person who could use some help.  I thought maybe you could offer more than I could.

[oh please already]

im afraid your losing me here-like groovey(hi groovey:)  )i dont understand what you mean what you say about responable methadone using.I thought that you take methadone for 1 of 2 reasons-pain or treatment of addiction.If you have true pain who the hell cares what number of milligrams you need for good control,its kinka like saying i wear a size 6 shoe and jamming your foot into a shoe withthe number six written on it-maybe its marked wrong or maybe they run small ,what does it matter,why be in pain  or 2- foe addiction.I am begining to relize that they are right an addict is an addict forever.I too have no trouble except with my oxycotin,i have tons of sleeping pills,vicoden andeven percocet dont call me the same way( ill take the percocet but dont fixate on them the same way)so it must be in my head and to treat my head i would think the first step is just to get rid of the oxycotin

[oh please already]

im afraid your losing me here-like groovey(hi groovey:)  )i dont understand what you mean what you say about responable methadone using.I thought that you take methadone for 1 of 2 reasons-pain or treatment of addiction.If you have true pain who the hell cares what number of milligrams you need for good control,its kinka like saying i wear a size 6 shoe and jamming your foot into a shoe withthe number six written on it-maybe its marked wrong or maybe they run small ,what does it matter,why be in pain  or 2- foe addiction.I am begining to relize that they are right an addict is an addict forever.I too have no trouble except with my oxycotin,i have tons of sleeping pills,vicoden andeven percocet dont call me the same way( ill take the percocet but dont fixate on them the same way)so it must be in my head and to treat my head i would think the first step is just to get rid of the oxycotin

[angst]

if you get to a large dose and wind up detoxing one day, you will understand what i mean about being responsible for your dosage.  there is a lot of info on the net about methadone.  read,read, and read.  i did.  it helped me so much.  Good luck with whatever you chose.

[oh please already]

im afraid your losing me here-like groovey(hi groovey:)  )i dont understand what you mean what you say about responable methadone using.I thought that you take methadone for 1 of 2 reasons-pain or treatment of addiction.If you have true pain who the hell cares what number of milligrams you need for good control,its kinka like saying i wear a size 6 shoe and jamming your foot into a shoe withthe number six written on it-maybe its marked wrong or maybe they run small ,what does it matter,why be in pain  or 2- foe addiction.I am begining to relize that they are right an addict is an addict forever.I too have no trouble except with my oxycotin,i have tons of sleeping pills,vicoden andeven percocet dont call me the same way( ill take the percocet but dont fixate on them the same way)so it must be in my head and to treat my head i would think the first step is just to get rid of the oxycotin

[oh please already]

im afraid your losing me here-like groovey(hi groovey:)  )i dont understand what you mean what you say about responable methadone using.I thought that you take methadone for 1 of 2 reasons-pain or treatment of addiction.If you have true pain who the hell cares what number of milligrams you need for good control,its kinka like saying i wear a size 6 shoe and jamming your foot into a shoe withthe number six written on it-maybe its marked wrong or maybe they run small ,what does it matter,why be in pain  or 2- foe addiction.I am begining to relize that they are right an addict is an addict forever.I too have no trouble except with my oxycotin,i have tons of sleeping pills,vicoden andeven percocet dont call me the same way( ill take the percocet but dont fixate on them the same way)so it must be in my head and to treat my head i would think the first step is just to get rid of the oxycotin

[oh please already]

im afraid your losing me here-like groovey(hi groovey:)  )i dont understand what you mean what you say about responable methadone using.I thought that you take methadone for 1 of 2 reasons-pain or treatment of addiction.If you have true pain who the hell cares what number of milligrams you need for good control,its kinka like saying i wear a size 6 shoe and jamming your foot into a shoe withthe number six written on it-maybe its marked wrong or maybe they run small ,what does it matter,why be in pain  or 2- foe addiction.I am begining to relize that they are right an addict is an addict forever.I too have no trouble except with my oxycotin,i have tons of sleeping pills,vicoden andeven percocet dont call me the same way( ill take the percocet but dont fixate on them the same way)so it must be in my head and to treat my head i would think the first step is just to get rid of the oxycotin

[oh please already]

im afraid your losing me here-like groovey(hi groovey:)  )i dont understand what you mean what you say about responable methadone using.I thought that you take methadone for 1 of 2 reasons-pain or treatment of addiction.If you have true pain who the hell cares what number of milligrams you need for good control,its kinka like saying i wear a size 6 shoe and jamming your foot into a shoe withthe number six written on it-maybe its marked wrong or maybe they run small ,what does it matter,why be in pain  or 2- foe addiction.I am begining to relize that they are right an addict is an addict forever.I too have no trouble except with my oxycotin,i have tons of sleeping pills,vicoden andeven percocet dont call me the same way( ill take the percocet but dont fixate on them the same way)so it must be in my head and to treat my head i would think the first step is just to get rid of the oxycotin

[oh please already]

im afraid your losing me here-like groovey(hi groovey:)  )i dont understand what you mean what you say about responable methadone using.I thought that you take methadone for 1 of 2 reasons-pain or treatment of addiction.If you have true pain who the hell cares what number of milligrams you need for good control,its kinka like saying i wear a size 6 shoe and jamming your foot into a shoe withthe number six written on it-maybe its marked wrong or maybe they run small ,what does it matter,why be in pain  or 2- foe addiction.I am begining to relize that they are right an addict is an addict forever.I too have no trouble except with my oxycotin,i have tons of sleeping pills,vicoden andeven percocet dont call me the same way( ill take the percocet but dont fixate on them the same way)so it must be in my head and to treat my head i would think the first step is just to get rid of the oxycotin

[oh please already]

im afraid your losing me here-like groovey(hi groovey:)  )i dont understand what you mean what you say about responable methadone using.I thought that you take methadone for 1 of 2 reasons-pain or treatment of addiction.If you have true pain who the hell cares what number of milligrams you need for good control,its kinka like saying i wear a size 6 shoe and jamming your foot into a shoe withthe number six written on it-maybe its marked wrong or maybe they run small ,what does it matter,why be in pain  or 2- foe addiction.I am begining to relize that they are right an addict is an addict forever.I too have no trouble except with my oxycotin,i have tons of sleeping pills,vicoden andeven percocet dont call me the same way( ill take the percocet but dont fixate on them the same way)so it must be in my head and to treat my head i would think the first step is just to get rid of the oxycotin

[oh please already]

I AM SO SORRY i spilled water on the keys and it went wacked    i am so sorry