Member Comments are provided by individuals and reflect their personal opinions only. Under NO circumstances should you act on any advice or opinion posted in this forum. ALWAYS check with your personal physician before taking any action regarding your health! MedHelp International and our partners, sponsors and affiliates have no obligation to monitor any comments posted on this site, or the content and/or accuracy of such exchanges. MedHelp International does not endorse the views of any user.
Tapering
by dreams in digital, Sep 08, 2001 12:00AM
Long time Listener, new caller... O.K., here's my question. I know that logically it would seem that if you have tapered down to 2 es's a day after taking 10 a day, your withdrawal symptoms would not be as severe. I still wake up feeling as bad after only taking my maintenance dose as I did when I was abusing them. Has anyone any thoughts on this nastiness?
Related discussions
-
The Disease Of Addicition (75 replies):I have studied the effects of the disease of drug addict...[more]
-
Horrific Depression from withdrawals??????????? (69 replies):I have been on oxycontin for 1 month; 20mg every twelve ...[more]
-
How to help/deal with a loved one with a drug problem (117 replies):I feel like I'm at the end of my rope! Having a heart co...[more]
-
Help! I've Become the Drug Police (97 replies):My son has been using heroin for about two years. He det...[more]
-
LARCETS AND WEED? (128 replies):Hi all i was wondering if you can help me . I'm a 37 ye...[more]
-
Withdrawl from Oxycotin (110 replies):I have been on a different pain killer for the past 7 mo...[more]
-
Withdrawel's from pain medications (66 replies):I have been reading your stories on this website for sev...[more]
Post Comment
Related Communities
Recent Videos
Related Expert Forums
Recent Activity
Most Popular Trackers
RSS
Expert Activity
Community Members
Most Viewed Health Pages
I do about 10 bags a day, and I am going cold turkey starting tomorrow morning, tonight will be my last bag. This is not by choice obviously, I would love to go to a detox faciltily and get weaned off with Methadone or something like Buprenex, but my insurance won't cover me anymore. That's a long annoying story of its own that none of would enjoy hearing anyway, LOL. Anyway, I have a ton of xanax here, and a few muscle relaxers. Has anyione gone cold turkey off of a lot of heroin. I have gone cold turkey before withdrawling from Percocets, and Vicodin, and Lorcets, but never the Heroin. I have been doing it consistently for almost 3 months now. I believe 3 months ago I was clean for about 2 weeks. But since then I have been doing it all day every day. I dont shoot it, I only snort, as if that is something to be proud of, LOL. Any response would be much appreciated. Thanks.
Dreams....how fast have you been tapering? My doc told me that if I went down one pill every three days, I would not even notice any discomfort. I was not able to handle that kind of taper...couldn't fight the temptation to take more, so I went the mostly cold turkey route (though in my withdrawal week I did take a small amount at night to sleep..like, half a vic.) If you are doing a fast taper, I think you are going to experience nasty withdrawal sickness no matter what.
Have you tried the detox recipe that Thomas has given us on this site? The supplements really help. Please post more about how much you were taking, for how long, and how fast your taper was, and maybe one of us will be able to answer your question. Good luck...I'm very recently clean, and finally feeling human again!
Joel..I've not got much to offer you, since I never did heroin...I'm a hydrocodone addict, so I really don't know much about the difference between the two. I do know that there are great folks on this forum who have detoxed from heroin, and hopefully one of them will pipe in. I want to encourage you to read the detox recipe from Thomas that is posted a bit below, and try to use it ..it should help..and please, post, let us know how you are, and remember that we are here to give you as much non judgemental caring support as you are willing to take from us.
Nice to meet you both and I look forward to hearing more from you.
WW
WW - I hope your pain is not too bad today. I am so proud of you I wish I had the strength to quit like you did and not taper like I am Oh well if it works it works right?
I've been deep in narcotic addiction for 4, well more like 5 years. I think that what happened was a very spiritual thing for me.
Two things made me make the choice to stop.
This forum, and reading all your stories, and the non judgemental compassionate support. I lurked on this site since January of 2001...and didn't start posting till July, about a month after my surgery.
My spiritual/magickal work. I was sitting at my altar, praying to the Goddess that I work with. It was a new moon, a time that to me represents new beginings. I "got" a very clear, deep message from my higher power that it was Time. The message was so clear, there was no doubting it. So, I surrendered to it, and I also knew I had the support here to get me through it.
So I really can't say it is strength alone that did it for me. I think it was just the right time for me. For years now I've been waiting for the right time. I've tried to stop before and couldn't, and plus I had the surgery upcoming. I also had the luxury of time off work, with no responsibilites. I knew I'd not have that again for a long time. I go back to work in a week and a half..soon as my chair comes in.
I just think that when it is the right time, you just know. I guess... I don't know..I'm a baby at this recovery stuff lol
Maybe it is different for each and everyone of us. I do know that the fact that no one here pressured me to stop or not stop made the world of difference..I felt supported in making my own choices, and accepted no matter what. Don't anyone underestimate the gift you gave me with that unconditional acceptance..it may very well have saved my life.
I also know that I am very vulnerable to relapse and need to keep working my butt off to stay in the freedom and light that this path of recovery offers. You, and every one else here, are a huge part of that.
Don't beat yourself up for not being off the meds yet. Just keep listening to your heart and staying open to miracles.
lots and love,
WW
Someone responded saying that he should be albe to just stop it and count his blessings, to quote "if ultram is the only thing you crave, you have no problem and should count your blessings"
I posted a nice, but clear post responding to this, as I felt that was a horrible way to treat a cry for help and I've learned ultram is very addicting and hard to get off. Now this other poster is condescendingly asking me why I am so persistant in the face of the real truth that ultram is not an addictive narcotic, and I must not have experience with real heavy drugs. OI!!!!
I'm going to drop it, not respond. It is pissing me off too much.
Just needed to vent...
thanks,
WW
I'm so sorry the depression is surrounding you these days..I wish there was some magick wand that could be waved, to banish the grey haze and let you experience the brilliant loving light that is always within you.
Just wanted you to know that I"m thinking of you and wishing you love and light.
WW
But it sounds like you're in control of your dosage, so it's your decision whether to increase it again and re-start tapering... By the way, I'm beginning to think of tapering as a greatly overrated solution... or at least over-used as a panacea for just any addiction. If I were a recovering heroin addict, I'd want to switch to methadone and just stay on a big, fat dose indefinitely. I guess by now, you've discovered I was a drug-fiend long before I was a chronic pain patient.
Try to spend the next week in a hot Jacuzzi ... or at least hot bath … watch some really good, engrossing movies, too. If possible watch 'em from the Jacuzzi (what the hell, no one said this couldn't be fun!).
My all-time favorite detox movies are:
Huston's Treasure of the Sierra Madre - From the first frame, you're in world of characters easily worse off then you are; then the music kicks in and you're on an adventure (with guns) - But Huston's treatment of Williams's Night of the Iguana must get honorable mention. Babenco's At Play in the Fields of the Lord, Hitchcock's Psycho for obvious reasons, Zimmerman and Hepburn's The Nun's Story, Eastwood and Forrest Whittaker's Byrd and the detoxer or all detox movies, Kubrick's Dr. Strangelove (the sanest movie ever made) - do that plus a judicious amount of one type of benzo (valium, librium, xanax, ativan, klonopin - they'll all work, but use only one kind!). ..
It's easy: taper your benzos at a slightly slower rate than you vicodin taper, so as to leave yourself with a few extras benzos for the inevitable post-detox jitters.
Of, course, if you can't beg, borrow or steal a week or a day off work and somebody's apartment in which to do this, then you better just hit yourself with 3 to 4 thousand mg's of L-Tyrosine capsules plus B6 first thing in the morning and don't eat for an hour or go to work for another, still.
WARNING: DON TAKE L-TYROSINE IF YOU'RE ON AN ANTI-DEPRESSANT OF THE SSRI CLASS (hate them), LIKE PORZAC, PAXIL, EFFEXOR, CAN'T THINK OF ANY MORE).
Don't be surprised if the dose gives you the runs. It will happen quickly, plus you can just add two Imodium (immodium)'s with the Tyrosine to avoid it happening again … You can read my complete recipe somewhere in a few of these threads, or just read this for now: Your brain is depleted of dopamine (which I'm a HUGE fan of) and norepinephrine. The former is necessary if you're ever to feel pleasure in your life again.
Get this at the health food store, they all have it: The L-Tyrosine (not L-Lysine!) - 500 mg caps x100) - plus enough B6 to take with the L-Tyrosine each morning to improve absorption - this will typically give you a fairly dramatic mood lift, a general feeling of well being and increased mental and physical energy. I take between 100 and 200 mg of B6 with the L-Tyrosine but can't tell any difference. -- Don't drink any coffee that morning. Also take zinc and magnesium supplements for a year or more after your detox - I believe that was pillpoppa's advice …
And be your own judge on dosage, 4,000 mg of L-Tyrosine has been used safely many, many times, but you may not need 4000 mg at a time to get the effect you need. Your body uses the amino acid L-Tyrosine to eventually manufacture dopamine for its pleasure/reward system, or whatever we're calling it now. You may experience a headache from 4000 mg, especially if you're a senior of low body weight.
- Don't like to send people off half-cocked! Talk to your doc first, and then take only what you need. It's not a state secret.
Good talking to you. Feel better. Look around this forum, you'll find lots of good people full of good advice ..
Thomas
When my grandmother died, I was only 19, and found my mother sobbing and sobbing...I sat next to her and just listened, and she said to me "Now there is no one on earth who will ever really care if my shoes fit or not", and she cried some more. I think that there is a special kind of love that mothers offer that we don't really understand until it is no longer there. Even though my own mother drives me nuts and hurt me badly with her alcoholism, I love her dearly (she has been sober since I was 12) and reading how much you miss your mom helps me remember to appreciate my own while I still have her.
Cindi, I know you probably don't need a lot of advice, but just be very gentle and loving toward yourself, and please know that I'm sending magick sparkles, rainbows, and love and light to you..they may not be the same as Wiz's, but they are sent with genuine love and care.
WW
I seem to remember reading that you are a psychologist. You don't have to answer this, of course, but … I'm, curious about something: how do you feel when you have to address your patient's chemical dependency problems? I suppose you could "go on automatic" and react as you've been trained, but still it must be, to use a medical term, "weird"… I know you don't prescribe, but you certainly have to deal with patients on various meds.
I'm interested in what you'd do about a patient whose problem is simply drug addiction. In every other way, he fits the norm -- wife, family, career. In respect to any law that doesn't stand between him and his medicine, he is a law-abiding citizen. He also manages to have one or two kicks from time to time.
How would you react if the patient proved to you after a lengthy psychoanalysis that he simply loved opiates - loved opiates with the intensity a man feels for a woman?
That's how it is for me- god forgive me. I truthfully can't remember a higher-high or a purer experience of love for life in all my 47 years than on those trips back home from the pharmacy, that first dose washing over me, the music guiding us home.
Don't spare my feelings, either. Don't forget, I worked in Advertising in the early 90's.
Your friend,
Tom
Today I had to go to family member house to let dogs out while they are on vacation. I go into the house and right on the kitchen counter are 3 new/full prescriptions. 1 of Vic's, 1 of T4's, and another of generic hydro 10/600. Just sitting there. It was like some sort of joke. But actually for her back as was in car accident recently. Well, I was a good boy but......AAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH! That was terrible. I sat and looked at them for 15 minutes. Opened em, closed em, read them...over and over. Will I be like this the rest of my life whenever I see these or something happens like this???
thanks for any input. 3 more days and I'm down to 0. Thanks to everyone, I know I could not have gotten as far as I have without being able to read all your great posts and support to each other. Durty
First, yep, I'm a Psychotherapist. I'll leave out other identifying information in the rare event that someone I know from work might read and recognize who I am.
I've been a shrink for 15 years, and I love my job. At the outset, due to my mother's alcoholism, I avoided any job that specialized in chemical dependancy, but of course it is impossible to do what I do without working with folks with addictions. We all have addictions, some to substances, others to processes.
Where I work now, we have an Adult Psychiatry department and a seperate chemical dependancy department. I am in the adult psych dept., so what I am supposed to do when I realize that a person's primary problem is drug or alcohol related is refer them to chem dep and let them take over. Most of the time that is what I do. But occassionally, the person will not go to chem dep..they hate it for some reason ;-) So they ask to just keep working with me.
What I'd do with someone who just loved opiates, and that was the only problem, is..well, I'd start with right where they were. If they didn't want counseling, we'd not continue. If they wanted someone to talk to, to explore why they love the opiates so much, that is what we'd do. I'm not a chem dep expert, the chem dep experts tend to be very directive and clear on the expected behavior, but they do so with compassion..one hopes. I don't believe that therapist have the right to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't do. I think a therapists job is to *listen* first, and point out the blind spots that a person may have, ask a lot of good questions, and support people in recognizing what their choices are. If someone's drug use is creating really bad circumstances for them, I work and work to help them look at their situation and choices and encourage them to get help, but I'd never judge, bellitle or blame them. Most clients can tell in a heartbeat if a therapist is going on automatic pilot, and they'd be right to simply not come back to that therapist, in my humble opinion..I try to never go on automatic..I think it is genuiness and authenticity that open the gates to healing.
I had a client who was a heroin addict, before my addiction really kicked in, and the work was great. This person loved the drug, and with the therapy got to the place where he decided that he loved the drug but hated what it did to his life, and decided to stop, but not because I ever told him what to do or not to do, though I did give guidance, suggestions, and direct advice.
My bias is that all addiction is based in some avoidance of feelings, so no matter what, I work with all my clients (and with myself...yes, I see a shrink about my problems too) to learn to be willing to feel..to learn to deal with feelings without numbing out, and to learn to tolerate grief, anxiety and pain without shutting down.
True confession time..and god this is hard to admit. I did some of my best work when I had taken a vicodin at work. I was more connected, more energetic..oh god this hurts to write. I feel like hypocritical scum...but just as it helped me socially, it made me more empathic and attentive. One of my favorite clients who "graduated" was a person who abused crack. Badly. This person came to me over week for a long time, through countless relapses, would NOT go to meetings, would only do one to one therapy. This person wrote a letter about how much I helped to my boss....and toward the end of the therapy with this person, I felt like scum 'cause I was a little high in the session. ::heavy sigh The client got into recovery finally, joined NA like I had hoped, and as far as I know is still well. I see this person for follow ups now about once a month. I felt like such a hypocrite, but at the same time, I could completely relate to the urges, and I'd say things in the session that made this person feel I was able to read minds....and that worked to the therapy's advantage.
Please understand how vulnerable I feel having revealed this. I know it was not right, and it was one of the things that made me type 'addiction' into a search engine and find this blessed forum.
So Thomas..I don't know..you strike me as a very well adjusted, intelligent, compassionate man who happens to have the same problem I have. A love of opiates. I don't know if I've answered your question, or just waxed on about my own confusion...lol....
But like you have taught me, these drugs are designed to seduce our bodies by directly stimulating the pleasure center..how some people can handle them and others not is a mystery to me. I hope I've answered some of what you were looking for..if not, be blunt with me and keep me to the topic...I can get sidetracked. heh.
love,
WW
BENZO-SEIZURE SYMPTOMS TO WATCH FOR:
A. extreme anxiety and tension from no apparent cause
B. easily startled
C. IMPORTANT - NUMBNESS IN THE EXTRMETIES, THAT IS NUMBNESS IN THE HANDS AND FEET. (GO TO ER IMMEDIATELY)
D. VISUAL AURA
TO AVOID OR INTERRUPT SEIZURE, IMEDIATE ADMINISTRATION OF FAST-ACTING BENZO LIKE ATIVAN.
THOMAS
Thomas
Thomas
I do have another question....my best friends's mother died 3 months ago....she was only 50 and died of lung cancer....my friend seems to be in a deep depression and is using pills....I really dont know how much or when she is taking them....she wont tell me...but I try and try to talk to her about how they will ruin her life, but she wont tell me she has a problem and I know she does...she just tells me she's in this depression because she misses her mom....I KNOW it takes a long time to get over a loss like losing your mom....but what can I do to help her????
This thread has so much compassion and profundity. I am glad I found such a shelter in the storm.
I too love opiates and feel society has a fascist approach towards these drug. My god, look at ethanol – you can certainly pop down to your local liquor store, drive home and twist off (and with friends) and that’s acceptable
I too have done some of my best work on 10mgs of Norco and .25 mg. of Xanax. The problem is my love for the drugs supercedes the love of my spouse and my children. The drugs become my love.
And anyway I look at it, that's sick,
And I struggle every day to get better.
Frankie Lee
I find many drugs enhance me from a number of perspectives but timing is everything. There's always a spike followd by a long trail off, no matter how many doses you take.
Look at it this way, if you did good work with your patient, than you did good work. Where's the problem? Just remember about timing if you seek to enhance yourself chemically.
how' this for a religious experience?
"NASA's Far Ultraviolet Spectroscopic Explorer (FUSE) satellite has given astronomers
their best glimpse yet at the ghostly cobweb of helium gas left over from the big bang,
which underlies the universe's structure. The helium is not found in galaxies or stars but
spread thinly through the vastness of space. The helium traces the architecture of the
universe back to very early times. This structure arose from small gravitational
instabilities seeded in the chaos just after the big bang. These FUSE observations help
confirm theoretical models of how matter in the expanding universe condensed into a
web-like structure pervading all of the space between galaxies."
How does it go? "Lest I show you miracles ye will not believe?"
I can't get the idea out of my mind that the universe really is just a dream of god. Of course, that could mean the dreams of man … better stop right now.
Hope your Sunday's blissful or at least interesting,
Thomas
Thomas
Thomas
Cindi- there's a simple reason why we can't just do "what makes us happy" even if it IS legal and makes our problems go away. In reality, it <i>doesn't</i> make our problems go away. Someone with a heroin habit would say that it makes <i>his</i> problems go away, so if us then why not him? Where do you draw the line between a "legal" happy pill and an illegal one? You can't, but even so, it wouldn't be a solution. Just as crack cocaine seems to make a user's troubles dissapear, they actually just give him one more problem and make his already existing problems a hundred times more intense when he doesn't have the drug- just as with a "legal" fix like hydrocodone, morphine, oxycodone, etc.
Your theory of a 'world full of happy people' is nice if that were the case, but it isn't. If everyone took something everyday that gave them a false sense of security, the world would be full of false people. Because you aren't yourself when you're drugged...you may think you're "better" than "yourself" but we all know that's not really true and anyone who says otherwise is just trying to justify still using. Not to mention the fact that none of these meds are mfg'd for "happiness" (Not directly, anyway), they are made for pain relief. If someone has legit pain that impairs their life, then taking something as everyday maintenance is a whole other story. But please don't use the whole "it's legal so why not..." "it feels good so why stop..." to joke yourself into using again. The REAL thing that will make you happy is to be PROUD of yourself for stopping the benzos and realize that slowly but <i>surely</i>, the feelings of accomplishment and outright victory will become your "happy pills".
Sorry to be such a yakkety yak...I hope and pray that all of you are well and if you aren't already fighting the good fight against addiction, may you begin recovery and start right this minute. Love to you all.
Kristen thanks for asking how I'm doing.. I didn't post at all yesterday because I've been in *In-Law" hell. Hubbie's parents came to visit us and kept us jumping around. I won't go into the **** they gave us for being Pagans...suffice to say they are very very sad that such loving and beautiful people like my husband and I will indeed burn in hell for not following their God. Oi.
I"m very glad to hear so much more optimism in your post Kristen! You go!
Thomas...you know, I have a profound respect for the expansion of conciousness that drugs can bring. I read Casteneda when I was 18. For a long time I was able to work with substances in a sacred context..to actually go into the trip with them with a shamanic visionary intent, and got tremendous benefit from this work. I'm referring mostly to psychedelics here.Acid, mushrooms, salvia divinorum. For me, psychedelics are not something I ever abused, but worked with in beneficial ways. Structured therapeutic experiences can occur with psychedelics, hell, that is what Tim Leary's original work at Harvard was focused on.
Opiates have been different for me. Though they make me feel good for a little while, they lead me to dull my sense of self and to withdraw from rich engagement with life and people.
I do think they should not be legally restricted. I think it is ridiculous that they are illegal, and leads to more addiction and worse problems.
I remain grateful for being free of the physical dependance. My body is feeling soooo much better, even with the pain.
lots of love,
WW
being limited to people in "recovery" 12 step or otherwise! get
your self in intractable pain and see how much physical pain relief
you get from your recovery. i don't want to sound like i'm coming
down on NA or AA, but i was recently told at an NA meeting i was
not "working a good program." when i asked this individual to e-
laborate, i was told that my use of oxy-c would prevent me from
ever attaining "recovery." don't know how the word got i was even
taking oxy-c. well i guess one could chaulk it up as not having
business of there own, so poke your nose into someone elses. (you
know- taking someone elses INVENTORY!!!) i'm sure NA & AA have ex-
stensive web sites of there own, so maybe we should be a little bit
tollerent of people who's thinking doesn't lock-step with a 12
step recovery-- maybe there are those on this forum who have other
issues of addiction they wish to address!
keep an angel on your shoulder
kip
got your e-mail. hope to answer tomarrow. work seems to be sucking
my time right up. guess thats what work is about....
keep an angel on your shoulder
kip
The addict in me works a different way. When I am in pain(and I am)I go for what works for me. Now that I am a bona fide chronic painer, I need no justification for the use of opiods. As I've stated many times in the past, these drugs are no longer as pleasureable as they once were. They become just another drug like the insulin I take to make it through the day.
My only hope is that somehow I can still connect with fellow addicts. I understand what love of opiates can bring us down to. Whether they are legal or not is not the issue here. Know what I mean? J.B.
where ya been? hope everthing is ok! i couldn't have put it
as well as your above posting. the past year has left me wondering
what place NA now takes in my life. it is truly a relief to hear
from someone else that has been or is, going thru the same
struggle as i am.
keep an angel on your shoulder
kip
Thomas
I suppose I have had some positive insights on opiates as well. The gift that opiates gave me early on is that they brought me out of my shell. They erased my shyness, and allowed me to experience expansive joy. At first. Then...because I abused them, I followed them into a deep dark cave, and got lost there for many years. Almost ruined my marriage due to a few years of prefering the pills to company of my husband.
Papaver somniferum...good ol' opium poppies....blessing or curse? I suppose it totally depends the circumstances and the person. They are very pretty flowers though...lol
WW
That narcotics had a theuraputic effect on you by bringing you out of your shell and allowing you to experience great joy might indicate a specific deficiency that could be addressed better if medicine understood it.
If such is true, think what a time-saver it would be not to have to chase vics all the time?
Many moons ago I had to come up with 75 vics a day. I did this for 3 years. Think what a pain in the ass that was.
Nice hearing from ya!
welcome to the forum! there will always be room for one more
addict, so come on in out of the cold! bring your dogs along too!
if you don't mind a suggestion, i would post a little closer too
the top of the forum. it's ok to break in on another thread. the
trouble with posting in the "basement," is it's very easy to be
over looked! i am a opiate addict since i was 15! i'm 50 as of
last spring. i had seventeen years of "clean time," and then an
old spinal injury came back to haunt me. i also am a dog lover!
my house hold revolves around a seven year old Keeshound named
"Dutch." as far as my wife and i are concerned, we can't see how
a person could take a walk without the company of a dog! hope to
see you posting on a more regular basis!!!
keep an angel on your shoulder! (Dog spelled backwards is God)
kip