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To Sub or not to Sub - - That is the question?
This subject seems to keep popping up every few days as more people read or hear that Suboxone or Subutex may be “The Answer” to their addiction problem.  About two months ago the debate raged pretty intensely between those who were pro or con on Sub.  Most of the regulars on this site know of my negative experience with Sub –as I have tried my best to share it, but I may have, in my zeal, discouraged some from even wanting to quit their DOC.  That certainly was (and is) not my intention.  Let me share that after 3 months of being totally clean, life has not been this good in a very long time.  Sub is a tool that can be successfully used to stop Opiate addiction.  It works very well as almost everyone will agree – the point of disagreement among present and past users is whether it is appropriate for use in all Opiate addictions.   My take on it is that if a person is on Heroin or Methadone, then Suboxone is probably justified.  Perhaps even for those on very heavy doses of Oxycontin -  (over 200 mg/day) may be justified in using Sub to kick the addiction.  However, anything short of that may result in only swapping one drug for another.  Sub is 40 times stronger than Oxy and although it does not give the ‘high’ we were accustomed to, it is more addictive than most people’s DOC.  Knowledge is power – and those who are serious about quitting need to know both sides of this debate.  Again this is only my opinion but using Sub to kick an addiction to a class 3 narcotic like Norco (Vicodin) would be like using an atomic bomb when you only need a hand grenade.   Even heavy doses of Hydrocodone can be tapered and then quit with only a week or two of withdrawal symptoms.  However Sub withdrawals can last for months.  As long as someone is taking Sub they will not have W/D’s but only a very few on this site have testified that they are glad they used Sub for their addiction.  Many have said they felt deceived by the doctor who started them on Sub.  Once hooked on Sub they felt helpless to free themselves from it. To add insult to injury, most have also stated that the doctor started them on a dosage that was far too high – thus increasing their potential addiction.

So, the point I want to make is – Buyer beware – get educated as much as possible – read all you can and then decide how you will get clean.  I encourage all who are considering using Sub to read the post that Avisg put together on the Health Pages --- The title is “Members experiences coming off of Suboxone.”  I do appreciate the posts of those who successfully used Sub to come off of their DOC -  I hope that more people will continue to post their own experience with Sub --- This is a great forum to air all sides of this issue and I hope it will continue.  All the best.
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No need to explain Ron;  Almost everyone I have seen post over the past year that is 'anti - Sub' has admitted that for the 'hard core' long term users of H or Methadone or even very high doses of Oxy may be looking at their only chance of getting clean.  For the rest of us who only took what they were prescribed over many years but found ourselves a slave to our drug supplier (usually our doctor) - then using Sub to kick Opiate is akin to using a bomb with a hand grenade would do.  I am proud of you and the distance you have come -- quite amazing, really.  But for those who want the 'easy' way out and think they will just stay on Sub until they can kick an Oxy or Hydro habit of less than 250 mg/day, they are only deceiving themselves.  We have seen multitudes of those (like Refusingbondage) who thought Sub was wonderful until they tried to quit it --  So, bottom like - if you have to decide between a life of crime or a life on Sub then the later is the only right choice.  For everyone else, buyer beware.  Once again  - I have noticed that the only positive responses to Sub are from those who are still using it.  When I was active on this site I noticed that the ratio was at least 10 to 1 against Sub -  by those who had used it and gotten clear of it.  Almost no one returned to tout how wonderful it was to have been on Sub.  Again, just my two cents.  You guys really are awesome - you are on here to get and give help.  I wish you all the best.  OC
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theformula and chefrontb:

I can agree with both of you as well.  This is why the sub discussion is so important.  One thing I think everyone can agree on is that sub does in fact give you a definate sense of normalcy in your life.  It frees you from an addictive lifestyle and allows you much needed time to not worry about cravings (because most people don't crave at all on suboxone) and to work on what the real issues are.  For many sub has indeed been a lifesaver and no one would ever argue that sub maintenance is worse for you than living needle to needle or script to script.

But many of us were duped by it and the promise of a 'withdrawal free detox from opiates".  Thats exactly why I took it--never being told by my doctor who was not a bad doctor at all, very caring and not money hungery -- that I would be on it for a long long time.. There is a considerable painful withdrawal risk when quitting suboxone and too many people are not told that and given the option to either take the treatment or not, knowing all the facts.  When I quit subs after being on for over 2 1/2 years I was told little to no withdrawal.  Not only was it the worst of any withdrawal, it lasted months and the cravings came back within a few weeks of not taking sub.. (leading to a minor relapse/short affair with some Vicoprofen for a very short period of time around 3 months after suboxone)  It basically just held everything off and it all piled on 10 fold when I stopped sub.  All the issues, cravings, etc.  For those using sub and working on yourself through therapy, NA or AA or some kind of support group and preparing for and properly tapering down and off suboxone - it can be a great tool.  Hey even if you take it forever thereby never sticking another needle in your arm or abusing another bottle of oxycontin - that is your choice and I commend your efforts and have nothing but respect for you.  For me personally I wanted to be free of everything.  Sub kicked my a**.  After the honeymoon with sub wore off, for me individually, it turned into a physically and mentally abusive partner.  This is why knowing all the facts, the good, the bad, and the ugly, about subxoone is so important and making an educated decision and being willing to do all the work (and not just pop a sub) is so important.  Best of luck to everyone fighting this disease.  We are all warriors.
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401095 tn?1351395370
u cant really actually compare them in reality..sub to other narcs..cos they r not exactly the same...but there r conversion charts out there that do...oxy is a bit stronger than hydro..not alot but it is a schedule 3 and hydro is a schedule 2/schedule 2 being a lower abuse potential that a schedule 3//not so sure bout that...but anyway in theory oxy is stronger than hydrocodone
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If you are having a hard time with quitting oxy or H for 24 hrs  then Subutex is normally what docs/detox  will put you on for 72 hrs. before they prescribe Suboxone, this way you won't get horribly sick,  you may want to ask your doc about that option.

The reason this post was back into the main stream is because of a woman whom wanted to know if it was okay to take an addict into her home....   I'm sorry I responded to that question, as I was very concerned for her safety. But her question really had nothing to do with Suboxone.

I have said ad naseum Suboxone allowed or gave the opportunity for my kid to focus on recovery...  completing 30 day in patient,  60 day IOP,  NA, long term after care 2 x a week, college  work  and so on and so on......

The Suboxone debate should truly be left up to the individual,  after MUCH research and MULTPILE relapses, perhaps this is one of MANY treatment options available  or NA  or  QT  or detox  or pschy treatment  or addictologists care      there are a lot of options,  I only wish at some point the judgment would pass,  and we could accept  all options available for sobriety,  whether that one worked for you or not....    everyone,  as is their addiction is different....   and so will be their recovery.


Or so is my humble opinion.    Nothing will work, if you are not 100% committed to your sobriety in every sense of the word.
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917083 tn?1247798355
well i dont know exactly were i was pushing subs on you but looks to me like someone(YOU)is getting defensive about your ridiculous plan to wean of oxy then use them again if u feel sick. it looks to me like your looking for someone to tell you its ok to do what your doing. well go ahead. have fun and dont ever come to my page again talking **** or ask questions you dont want real answers to. have fun "WEENING" off your oxy when your ready to look at what your really doing maybe you can get clean.also i havent heard one word from you about rehab, counseling, support systems, meetings or anything else. your plan is to go down 5mg every 12 days and your at 35 right now. so lets see thats 7x12 which is 84. your ween is 80 some days long still and then when its all over your rational is if i feel sick i will just take some more. yeah, good luck with that..............
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that was a "not a very nice post"   here is the note i posted which you obviously took offense to and deleted..... i deleted your notes as well, but you were telling me what to do, what i should and shouldnt do....  

Formula:  I am here to make an informed decision based on the information that I gather here which is best for me. Please do not push your ideas regarding suboxone on me and tell me I should do suboxone. What is good for you is not necessarily good for me, or the next person who comes along. You can write all day long on how suboxone works well for "you", and it has helped "you" succeed in getting clean, but please do not tell me what you think I should do e.g seek professional help, go to a sub doctor, etc.  I came to this site to read how people have succeeded in getting clean and support people who are clean now, and get support for my efforts as well.  Please don’t take offence by my forwardness, but your formula may be different than my formula but I think and hope we are both headed in the same direction -- to get clean.  Good luck to you.
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ok i should have taken the high road and not responed to that post. Sorry, im human and that post made me feel bad.... gotta go to work.... sorry people... dont want to stir the pot.... i should have known better.
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214607 tn?1287681159
If she decided to continue to wean off the oxy's dropping 10% every 3-4 days, that is a relatively good and smart taper. Now, when she is down to say .05 mgs of oxy and stops, she shouldn't keep using oxy, she should just stop and endure what is left of the w.d. But, she isn't giving excuses, at least I don't get that from her posts. She seems she is looking for a way to stop. I wish her the best.

And sub can be beneficial for some people, short term...that is my opinion and my opinion only.
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Hello All,

Only now am I well enough to write! But I've been reading and gaining strength from others' stories. I am now on DAY 8 of Suboxone withdrawal, after 2 years on it. It has been H.E.L.L. My Dr. put me on 8mgs. Sub with only a mild hydro habit...80 mgs/day. I could have kicked that waaay easier! In my own opinion, DON'T START SUBOXONE unless you are dealing with a really heavy addiction you just can't get yourself out of. It's not worth it. Given full knowledge by my doctor I would have chosen to tough it out 2 years ago.

But I found what seems to be my answer...might not be the best choice, but it's working for me. I first weaned down as low as I could, about .5 mgs/day. It was tough. Then I took the jump to 0. DAY 1 & 2 were not great. And OMG I suffered through DAY 3, then 4, and then 5, and it was NARLY. I refused to put Sub back in my body after reading about the length of the w/d. Right or wrong, I had a few hydros from a dental issue and used them to treat the symptoms of the Sub w/d, and it is removing the deep bone/muscle/nerve pain. I feel human again. My concern is that I could be prolonging the Sub withdrawal. I think not because the Sub is still out of my body. Might have to deal with a little hydro w/d which is NOTHING next to Sub w/d. And I truly believe I can stop hydro..and I will. Not everyone can so I don't recommend this to everyone. But it's working for me and getting me thru to DAY 12-14 that people seem to think starts getting better. Anyone have any experience with this that can tell me what to expect?

I really can't believe the thing that put me on Sub is my tool to get off Sub. I am ABSOLUTELY NOT suggesting someone start back on any old demons, just sharing how I am surviving this ordeal. I pray I am not being naive, and truly believe I am strong enough now to survive this. The next couple days will be very telling.

I keep in mind what someone else said about detoxing and withdrawals...IT WILL BE OKAY...AND THEN IT WILL BE GREAT!

A very determined,

Missi


"Other reasons for trouble tapering off Suboxone:  buprenorphine has a potency akin to that of fentanyl.  A dose of 5-10 MICROGRAMS is a potent analgesic.  A quarter of one tablet of Suboxone contains 2 mg of buprenorphine, or 2000 MICROGRAMS!!  So any dose of Suboxone is 'overkill'-- even a sliver of a tablet contains an amount of buprenorphine that is quite high, and possibly over the 'ceiling dose'.  Stopping 16 mg Suboxone is like abruptly stopping 30 mg of methadone... and stopping 2 mg of Suboxone is like stopping 30 mg of methadone!" - Jeffrey T Junig, MD PhD  
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401095 tn?1351395370
u seem to have done ur homework...the ceiling effect makes taking huge doses of sub kinda silly..but the sad thing is people who dont know better get sukked into this and end up with the one thing they wanted to avoid in the first place..wds....i was at ur dose of hydro...really more but had done sub/not for the right reasons/and knew i would have a problem tapering off of it cos i was no good at tapering off hydro..and 2 mgs of sub put my hydro habit to shame....liked it too much...but u r where u r and as long as u come thru clean and know u can stop the hydro..u will come thru...keep posting cos theres lots of support here....this is an old post tho..not too old but a new pquestion would bring more attn to ur post...sub is a good tool for some who need it at heavy intake etc....or it can become a new doc and a new noose around ur neck...but u r on ur way to being free
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Hi,
not sure if this is the right place to post for me... i've been using opiates for 5 yrs now for legitimate pain issues. I've been trying to stop and learn to manage my pain in a different way... But everytime I try I get so so sick. It's so depressing. i cry all the time because no one takes it seriously. They all think i should be able to do it on my own. I feel like i'm dying a slow death and no one will help me find a way to come out of it.
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the best quote i have ever seen dealing with suboxone addiction is this

"trading one denile system for another does not equal recovery"

that pretty much sums up my stint on suboxone, i thought it was a god send until i tried to get off it, i am still waiting to hear back from the addicitons doctor here about his personal experience with subxone, i have read all those articles on his sub. blog but he seems to leave out somethings, it seems like if you can put your face on a product you could atleast talk about how it worked for you, even people who sell ceral let us know how it taste before they go on tv promoting it
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I like suboxone though I haven't been on it long term I get off it asap!
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1034192 tn?1445513384
I have been reading for hours, this thread and many others.  I am going to my doctor tomorrow and confessing my addiction, a huge step for me.  The doc has been giving it too me but I take much more, and buy on the street.  I cant do it anymore and I am so afraid.  However I want to thank everyone who added their info and feel more educated.  Now its time to take back my life!
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983679 tn?1276836936
"I am going to my doctor tomorrow and confessing my addiction, a huge step for me" ...thats a huge step for anyone, congrads on that! You must be ready to quit and that, along with accepting you have a problem says alot as well!
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I saw my shrink yesterday, day 7 from a 80min-320 max hydros Time release oxy's for the higher doses, I also enjoyed 50 mg's of meth when i could get it. Anyhow my shrink looked at me and said "whats going on". I told him, He asked if I would like help with the cravings, He wrote me a script for subs. 14 tabs 1/2 twice a day see you in 2 weeks! Your right, I took my half tab when i got home and an hour later i was knocked out of the park. He sent me home with a suboxone pamphlet, and a help line! this stuff is strong and emulates the real stuff good enough for me to get hooked on. Why he gave me something so powerful on day 7(i did not initiate the discussion of subs)got me thinking? The office is named addictions counciling & therapy.Back on point. the average session time is7-8 mins.I believe his best interest is keeping his patients medicated.I know i'm paranoid. But here me out if all us patients became drug free he would be out of a job! Suboxone.com has a lot of information and my interpatation is other than methadone, they see suboxone as a 36 week program! At 7 days in c/t I would expect a scrip for 2-3 valium Maybe a couple dexies remember dexies for energy. Thanks to your posting I can nip this early, If I have to go thru w/ds of such intensity again, I'm gonna be pissed. Iam grateful for this website. prayers for all of us.
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SUBOXONE *****...read my other posts and debates regarding it. W/D are stronger than my 600 mg a day oxy habit. I tried to quit with subo so many times and relapses after stopping subo. Went cold turkey and was successful.
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942290 tn?1252622149
I dont know why people just dont read about sub?  ok, its a narcotic replacement opioid, that is very strong and does have worse wd's than the other opioids. what would one expect from a stronger narcotic opioid?

facts are facts...  but on a side note I was talking with a member here that brought up a valid point, that some have such bad addictions and sub is the only option for them.


unless you are a heroin addict shooting up or 20-plus oxy user, then stay far away from the money grubbing sub doc  system.
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well said
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222369 tn?1274478235
I think there's a few reasons for the influx of bad Suboxone withdrawal stories. I am going ahead and saying that I truly believe them all. I also was on Sub for a while and quit 3 or 4 times. Every time I did the withdrawals were horrific. However, I was trying to jump off at 2mg or more. Until I had successfully weaned down to .5mg, I wasn't able to stop. After getting to .5mg I jumped and had mild withdrawals at most. Sub is much more potent milligram for milligram versus other opiates. Many people think..hey, I was taking 200mg a day of Oxy, jumping off of 2mg of Sub should be a breeze. Just doesn't work like that. I believe the next incarnation of Suboxone therapy (along with the generics coming to market) will be the introduction of smaller dosages in easy to use tablet form, a liquid, and a patch like the one available in Europe. Also, if you look online you'll see the ratio of good experiences with Sub outweighed by bad ones 100 to 1. It's like that for almost every drug. Why? People don't look for an outlet to complain when they have nothing to complain about. Many people are also in the false impression that Suboxone somehow changes the addiction. It merely arrests the addiction for the length of time it's taken. Addiction is a mental disease that has to be treated by getting to the root of the problem. Suboxone is just putting off the inevitable. That's why short term Sub therapy fails so often if it's not followed by some sort of therapy. Long term Sub therapy is just as ineffective if the problem isn't addressed while on the maintenance program. As for who should or shouldn't be on Sub...that's not mine or anyone's call but the prescribing doctor and the patient. Just like I have no business telling someone they're an addict, I also have no business telling them how to treat it.
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Thank you to everyone who posted on this page for your honesty with your addictions. We are not alone, that is the first thing to remember! I will not get in to my doses and yadayada, but I am as much as a drug fiend as any that has ever been on this earth. I hate it. If I could get an exorcist to get this demon out of me, I would. Before I was put on subs, I literally could not be away from my oxy's for an hour before I would have to find a bathroom to snort another one. I started drug's when I was 13, and have been buying them on the street ever since. I could not go to anyone's house without tearing through there medicine cabinets to steal whatever op I could find. The only way that I could maintain this lifestyle was because I work as an assistant film director. This is one of the few professions where my raging drug addiction has never been looked down upon, but actually finds me more free meds and partners in crime. I made a ton of money, and it all went up my nose. I have not enjoyed drugs since I was 14, but I have been completely unable to stop. Genetics? (my grandmother didn't walk a straight line for 30 years, my other grandparents weren't much better.) Sometimes I think that I did not even stand a chance :( Has subs helped me to stay clean? Yes. Do I hate them as much as any other drug? Yes. I am not here to talk about the glories or evils of drugs, but rather the amazing support system that one can find in narcotics anonymous. A lot of people will tell you that you should not go unless you are completely clean, that they will not accept you. This is not true. I am allowed to be honest about everything that my addiction entails, and I have received nothing but love and support. I paid for counselors and shrinks, mucho $$$. Don't even bother. You will bore each other to death. In NA, you will be able to find people who are just as diseased, addicted, and insane as you are, and most importantly, will give you HONESTY, and force you to begin to question yourself, a trait that most addicts seem to be lacking in. Subs has kept me off all other drugs, a miraculous feat in itself. It has given me the ability to stop my destructive lifestyle long enought to receive real help. I just don't believe that I am clean. I am still taking a drug to be normal. The addiction, for whatever reason it is there, is STILL THERE. When I first started this medicine, I thought that I was getting clean. Correction. I am allowing my brain to heal itself from years of abuse. I know that the real work has yet to begin. I have stil not lived a day free of opiates. I am still an addict, and whoever believes that they are not because they are taking subs is lying to themselves. Take my word for it. If you are on drugs like vics and percs, do yourself the favor and just quit! Don't take this medication. It is for hardcore drug addicts. If you do choose to not heed this warning, and go ahead and get on subs anyway, then you should know that you are a hardcore addict, and have just been waiting for the opportunity or excuse to get your hands on something tastier, and will continue to make excuses to keep yourself on it. You are entering the world of the big bad wolves. You will go through years of hell and confusion, all because you had a little craving, and could not take the 'horrible' w/d of a mild opiate. Who am I to judge your treatment? If you don't like my politics, go find someone who gives a #$@! and tell them. If, however, you see no end to your shooting, snorting, smoking, and stupidity, and spend more time with a needle in your arm or a dollar in your nose than you do eating or sleeping, go on the subs. They will save your life. Even if it is only to get you to a place where you can begin to get treatment, and see the error of your ways. If you do not plan to get some form of mental and emotional support to go along with your treatment, then you too are just looking for an easy way to get off, but brother, I will tell you, this ain't it. It is not easy or cheap. Go and find people who will challenge you and offend you and make you realize that your obsession with getting high is 100% pure sicko, and that any goal other than being clean is still just you disease lying to you. I promise you the more that you here this from your empathetic peers, the more you will begin to dream of a day that you too will walk in the pure land of freedom and sobriety. I see that day very close for me. I want this part of me to die, so that I can live. I love you and I want that for you too. PS. To that chick who got mad when it was suggested that 'weaning' off your oceans might not be the best plan, grow up. If you are going to post your problem, be prepared for the answers. Not everyone is here to breast feed you. But good luck to you anyway.
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As far as suboxone goes, I think it depends on the person and many other factors on deciding whether or not it will be detrimental to your recovery or if it will help you. I was taking Lortab and Vics for 3 years straight, probably about 10-20 pills a day. I decided a little while ago that I didn't want this life anymore and I tried quitting I had horrible withdrawals and just ended up going back to the pills. I did my research on Subs and decided to give it a try. The first day I took an 8 mg pill. And automatically started tapering from there for the fear that i would just get addicted to the Sub's in replacement of the tabs. I am on day 9 and I take about 2 mg every other day. I have made a goal with myself to be totally off in 20 days. I wait until I go back into wd to take my piece. Last night I still had some physical wd's still. But not as bad as the first few days. I am just waiting for the physical wd's to subside and then I will quit the Subs. For me there would've been no other way for me to kick this horrible addiction. I think that if you do your research well and understand the possible consequences that anyone should be able to make an educated decision. I personally think that it is easier for people who haven't been addicted very long and don't abuse very large quantities. But if you're truly ready to get off, I would recommend Subs. They are not for long term use. The longer you are on them the harder it will be for you to get off and the easier it will be for your body to get addicted and switch one vice for another. Start tapering from day and continue to lower from there and you will be amazed at how quick it passes and how much better you feel. I still have mental wd's and my brain is telling me it wants lortabs but I am ready to be healthy for the first time in my life, and that's what made this different. It's a rough road mentally and I know it will be that way for a while. But I am determined to stay clean and strong and get thru this. Good luck to everyone here! My prayers are with all of us.
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Just got home with my first suboxone script.  I have been taking 15-25 norcos a day for 2 years.  I have been able to quit once before.....the way I did it was I got only 2 suboxone.....took a full 8mg the 1st day, 1/2 the second day, 1/4 the third day....then stopped the subs completely.  Never had withdrawl from the norco or the subs.  I think the key is to just use the subs for 2 days...then STOP, or u will be hooked on subs....good luck to everyone
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I am on my 3 rd day of sub & so far no WDs but I still have cravings. I am not actively seeking them out there is no way I could refuse them. I am scared of that feeling you spoke about. I always feel empty, anxious, depressed & restless. I can handle the physical symptoms but not the emotional torture. My dr ended up not being in network so I called a different dr & he said because of the amt I was doing I should have started on methadone but since sub was already started I would stay on it . He said I am not in the right dose if I'm still having cravings, taking 8 mg 2 xd & then break my night pill & just take 1/4. Should I increase my day dose to manage the cravings? I am afraid it will make me sleepy so I couldn't do that on weekdays when I'm at work. What do u think?
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306455 tn?1288865671
If I'm reading this right, you're taking a total of 18 mgs a day of Sub, Is this correct?  A lot will depend on what type of drugs you're trying to kick and how much you were taking. Need more info. But it actually sounds like you are on a high dose of Sub, don't let the doctors say you need more. Less is better.  As for the mental part of kicking the habit, you need to make changes and probably get counseling or meetings of some type.
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You are VERY smart for going about taking the Sub's the way you did!!! Congrats!!
I took Sub for 2 yrs and for me, it was a bad choice...
Yes, i am well aware that it helps many, HOWEVER, if i had known that the w/d's from Sub were SO bad, i would've just gone thru the w/d's from my doc and gone on with my life and my recovery.
I spent about $10K-$12K on dr. visits and the Sub and the part that really makes me mad is that i didnt have to go thru that at all.
I haven't seen any independent studies that show that people who are on long-term treatment with Sub stay sober AFTER stopping the drug..I have a friend who simply took Sub for about a week to get over the worst part of his opiate w/d's, stopped the Sub and has been sober for over 2 yrs.
So be carfeul, Sub is a VERY strong drug and i felt awful w/d's for months after stopping it, it is NOT a miracle as the drug company touts it to be...come on-its a drug company!
IMHO-If your dr suggests long-term Sub treatment, please do your research to be informed and be sure you have a good dr., i have read way too many stories of dr's who are pushing to keep people addicted to this drug for the $$$..(big shocker, huh?)
And yes, Sub is highly addictive and God only knows what the long term physical effects are..
For more info go to: subsux.com and suboxonetaper.com -there are many many people out there struggling to stop this poision.
I am SO happy to be free of Suboxone!
Good luck to all on your journey w/ this med....
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I want everyone in this discussion to know how much I loved all their stories.  I was looking for information for my son about suboxin and I read everyone of them.  I loved all the pros and cons for this drug.  You all have given me an abundance of knowledge and  something to work with.  My son has a hard road ahead of him and I will be coming back here for thoughts and comments, so I can help guide him to a drug free, happy life.  I appreciate all of you so much and will pray for all of us to recover.  Love, Stephie
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I have been taking Sub's for 3 months.  I started taking them as my doc suggested it was easier to come off of methadone, however in the past I have come off of Methadone twice.  Both times had extreme w/d but was managed with Benzo's and weed and after about 3 weeks of extreme w/d's it got better but not entirely obviously as I'm still fighting the fight now with Sub's.  Both times on Methadone a did not use at all and stayed clean for 2 years or more after each time of coming off of methadone.  I dropped the program and thought I was home free.  That was try #1.  Then try number two went almost the same way but followed with treatment and a better program I stayed off for again 2 years.  I then started to expierence bad pain again which is what got me into trouble with opiates in the first place.  I went to a Doc to tell him of the pain I was having and what I could do.  He without question prescribed me 120 Dilly 4's and sent me on my way. I got as far as the car and by the grace of god I found myself standing back in the Doc's office returning the script and telling him I think this is a bad choice and he even knew my whole history with opiates in the past.  He then suggested Methadone which of course I was skeptical of taking b/c of how hard it was to come off but i was having seriously bad pain and it was preventing me from having well bedroom time with my girlfriend and that in itself was embarrassing as I am only 32.  So of course I agreed to the Meth again in a desperate attempt to rid the pain and prevent having to tell my girlfriend about the real reason why i have been so fridged.  Anyhow that was in May and I tapered down and then went onto Sub`s but I am now trying to come off the sub`s my doc is giving me other meds to help with the restlessness and nausea and all the other fun stuff that goes with w/d's but this time its different.  My emotions are all over the place I'm depressed and the anxiety that comes out of no where sometimes is almost worse than the actual w/d so I keep dragging it out making myself sick for 4 days or so then taking another half then 4 more days and so on. I'm starting to feel as though staying on the sub's longterm is a better idea than torturing myself the way I am or at least that is how I feel.  Maybe the time to come off isn't now or maybe there is never a right time to do this either way I feel helpless and hopless most days and feel as though my doc has just left it up to me to fiqure out what works best for me but at the same time I feel this is the only thing he can actually do anyhow as he has never been through this.  I'm hoping someone can comment on the deprression and anxiety and if it gets better or if its not normal or really any suggestions would be great if you can in fact find a question amoung my rambling. Thanks
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I am twenty five yrs old and I have been on lordtabs for three yrs my doctor couldve warned me of the serious addiction it would cause butto late for that. I am sooo ready to do anything to not be sick when I'm finished with my script I told my doc I didn't want anymore I have tryed bfor but felt like I was dieing what do u recommend I do thank you.
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1645684 tn?1356653200
Ok, this is starting to freak me out. I had a scrip for subs (given 16mg a day but took no more than 4mg a day) for about a year, but I was shooting 240mg of OC every paycheck, and the two days after, then takin the subs to hold over till payday. (Yeah I was a genius) Went to rehab, used, went to another rehab, got three weeks clean. Came home, depression got worse and started using. I started dating a girl who was really supportive and helped me quit shootin up, but after six more months of me takin subs, she left. I'm working on doing this and I'm trying to kick from 2mg a day. It's been roughly 30 hours and I just feel a little sore and irritable. Is there ANYONE out there who managed to wean off subs relatively pain and trauma free? anyone? Idk if there's a little discomfort and emotional baggage, that's the nature of the beast. But it would be really nice to hear a couple success stories and maybe some taper schedules, I want to do this, and I want to feel confident going in. I can't really call in to work.
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1645684 tn?1356653200
Correction: I wanted to clarify, are there any success stories from people who took subs "Long Term" and managed to taper and have managable wds?
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so suboxone would help alleviate symptoms of methadone w/d (15mg) >> is it possible to get off meth with subs short term>>my w/ds seem to be jus being prolonged tryin it this way everytime i try to jus stop taking sub i feel horrible even tho its been 10 days since my last meth dose >>> i had to take 2/3rds of a half of an 8Mg sub jus to function .....HELP
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I'm sure that if your reading this or topics alike then your most likely looking for an answer, a friend or some kind of hope..I
I honestly don't know if we'll ever get the one we truely seek,from my personal opinion and experience once caught in the oh so enduldging open arms of addiction,we often find ourselves not wanting to return to reality due to loss of being "in touch",fear of w/d's,scared of everyone & everything we once knew,loved&cared for to be gone,changed or soo fed up&tired-sum of us ripping&running...well that is exactly where i found myself sometime in Nov.2008,I then decided to go the only place i felt I belong,the nuthouse,because not only do i suffer addiction but many mental illnesses and from not being on the much needed meds,i was detoxing/w.d/coming down from not only opiates but cocaine xtc alchol&many others but i was doing so without anything but being sick&tired of being sick&tired.a week later they diacharged me,without having a penny to my name or anywhere to sleep,I was tooken to rehab.ha.a lot of good that could've done aweek ago! Here i was already threw the worst with no suboxone,methadone..nothing & almost everybody there were being given so they wouldn't have to go through what i just thought to be hell,i wasn't aware of the so called miracle drug,long story shortened,i completed my 30days went to the place once called home is when the true journey began.. well 5months worth of meetings,groups,and ****** up situations i was still clean.one day i wasn't looking and it all came to an abrupt hault..I don't kno how or why but on april2nd,2009 my life &soberiety ended. Almost a week later i woke up with an i.v in one to many viens a tube down my throat with a machine keeping me alive,i later learned someone had drugged me and shot me up with a tenth of heroin,i o.d &i ended up dying before someone found me,I don't kno how nor why i was lucky per say but i was put on lifesupport and they told my family i wouldn't make it,if i did it was a 5% chance.well i woke up the day before they were to pull the plug.I've had memory loss,and few other things that effect me still,but after i was off lifesuppprt The hospital shipped me to another nuthouse due to the fact they believe i was attempting suicide,where i was given suboxone.mind there is no need for it,i was given a lethal dosage 8-8mg pills a day!! Yes eight whole eight mg pills a day. I couldn't function,i had no idea what was right @the time until i was given the okay to go home..i couldn't handle it so i just stopped taking so many,then when at a N.A meeting another addict,my so called sponsor took me to a methadone meeting,like all other doctors,i was sucked into that. Until recently i attended the clinic and didn't use or truely crave illicit drugs..yes the rumors are true that methadone withdrawls without the proper taper are horrible.worse then anything I've ever experienced. Well just my luck,i was being sexually harrased,so i went to my other p.c doctor and laid it out,he given me methadone tabs to taper from the liquid handcuffs i was just in,but he tore me down so quickly i gotten so sick i couldn't take it,so he wrote for 2 8mg. Suboxone a day..except thia time i was aware of what i was getting myself into...so i thought. All that did was throw me into the worst withdrawl ever!  So a weekend goes by and i quit takin the damn pills,once again he writes for subutex.   I'm in full blowen w.d's because my insurance needs a prior auth. And the doc is closed on the weekend!! So here i sit on Saturday feeling as if I'm going to die. I feel as if I'm moments away from going to cop that Detroit's finest...ughhhh i wish it were easier for us to get off drugs as it was to get on.. i just keep tellin myself i only have to be sick this last time, you only have to be sick one time. Just for today right?
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I have been on subs for about 4 years. It helped me to stay clean but now I have to take them everyday or I get violent withdrawals. I don't think I can just get off them on my own. I've tried and I felt like I was dying. I want to get off therm but I don't know how I need help. I really dont want to have to take them at all. Any suggestions please?
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I have been on subs for about 4 years. It helped me to stay clean but now I have to take them everyday or I get violent withdrawals. I don't think I can just get off them on my own. I've tried and I felt like I was dying. I want to get off therm but I don't know how I need help. I really dont want to have to take them at all. Any suggestions please?
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1691730 tn?1306069766
I really hope that you are ok. God has brung you a long long way. I know you posted April 20, but I am praying for you. I too am a "chronic relapser" and it is a problem in and of itself. Some folks just get sober, end of story. I mean sure its hard for them, but they do it. Then there is us. I have an aunt that is only 49 years old and she is in a nursing home due to an overdose. She too died, and they brought her back. She had a stroke however and is now in a wheelchair and can hardly speak. She was however able to wheel herself down the hall and steal a pain patch off an old lady! Honest to God true story, and funny..yet so so sad. Her son recently went to Afghanistan, she wasnt there to wave goodbye, in fact she doesnt even remember she has a son.But she d@mn sure remembered she was an addict and stole that pain patch. I am not doing well myself right now and have been considering sub, however I think I will just go cold turkey, cause either way I am still a prisoner. And isn't that the whole point? Not to be a prisoner to "something" for the rest of my life? D@mn right it is! Good luck to all of you. BTW, I have had 6 years of sobriety and they were the best years of my life. If only.....
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Can we agree if you have the choices between sub. And methadone then sub is way better? I had a Vicodin/  oxy habit for about 2 1/2 years. I had tried MDone from my pill Guy and loved it. I went straight to the MDone clinic and have been on it for 4 years now. Ill add that for a short time before I started @ the clinic I did begin suboxone and felt normal for those 3-4 months.(although I now know it was just a substitute, not a fix)
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Ill just add that after a 2 year addiction to Vicodin and oxygen I started Subs. I felt normal and actually like myself for those few months before I relapsed and then went to a methadone clinic. Methadone is where I have been for 4 years. I'm now 24, married with my first kid on the way. MDone makes me feel like a shell. I work and get by but I am not myself. I decreased from 90 mg. To 20 without severe w/d but feel stuck. I guess my point is given the choice of subs or MDone subs can let u live a much more normal life. Again I wouldn't reccomend either as apposed to a support group and medical w/d or rehab.
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Oops kinda posted the same thing twice
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3059867 tn?1340566652
methadone is the devil. worse than any other opiate. trust me. i was forced to detox CT off Mdone in jail after getting busted for a DUI .....only there 2 days but then the detox at my moms house then a recovery home for women fornthe rest...... it was a living friggin HELL ! i will nvr forget!

i stayed off opiates .....i used to be a heroin addict...thats why i was on Mdone...... anyway.... i got hurt, got diagnosed with a chronic illness 6 years later and was off to pain managenmnt...... 200 mg of opiates a day....oxy and roxy.....so after 4 years....i wanted off ! i have not been myself...my soul and spirit shackled to opium....lost interest in some rlly gr8 things !

my point.....i followed the amino acid protocol , exactly , at home , cold turkey , off over 200 mgs opiates .... and i did it! the detox was Nothing like methadone....thank GOD...... just follow the protocol....and get a clear head....dont be a slave to anything and live the life u were meant to live.....and LOVE :)

hug:::::::
mama k.
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I have been taking methodone for about two years and have tapered from a high of 140mg down to 40mg. I have seen the Doctor to make the switch to saboxone. He perscibed me 60 oxycodone and told me to stop taking the methodone. I go back in ten days to start the saboxone. I have done quite a bit of research and it seems to be that there are the pros and the cons just like in anything else.
The doc said it is easier to go from oxycodone to sabox than methodone to Sabox and that is his reasoning for giving it to me. However WARNING going back on oxy for just a few days brings your brain back to the addictive thinking. Make sure to have support in place. This is a very dangious way to make the switch.
I will keep you informed of my progress. Xaviersdad
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My pain doc has been treating my back problems with opiates.  I started at a low level but over the course of 4 yrs he has increased my dose up to 2 80 mg OxyContin 3 times a day 100 mcg fentanyl patch every 72 hrs and up to 6 30 mg Oxycodone for break through pain.  I have stopped the patches on my own so I'm on 480 mg oxycontin ER and up to 180 mg Oxycodone for breakthrough pain.  My doc now thinks I should switch to suboxone - will this treat my chronic pain and is it something that I will stay on?  I'm interested in the sublingual route.

Any help would be appreciated,
Jon
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2198453 tn?1343248340
I have been an addict for ten years and I use many different kinds of pills at once. After ten years of mixing drugs and failing to get clean and failing at cold turkey I knew suboxone was right for me. It helped me get off of everything at once. Otherwise I was trying so hard to detox of all four drugs one by one and it was almost impossible so I kept relapsing. I will tell you from my experience that suboxone should not be used for a lower dose addiction on vicodin or loritab etc. I think it should be used when there's nothing left. I tried to read most of the comments but I failed to much to read. But I agree with a lot of people who say use suboxone with care! That's my two cents!
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You can read the subutex/suboxone FAQ on the bottom of the community page. You are on a high enough dose, that I can see the doctor recommending subs. I am in subutex withdrawal right now. If you don't have the craving and compulsion of many addicts, you can taper. If you want to use subs for pain management, I have one friend with screws up and down his neck and he says it helps. He went back to work after taking oxys for 10yrs, during which time he could not work. Hope that helps. Good luck.
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1488695 tn?1288273673
You need to check out this website for support! Cut and paste http://www.subsuxs.com.or do a web search! Good luck! Your going to need it!
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thats what i was thinking about what about the liver damage that the hydros and oxys cause
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When choosing to take suboxone understand that you are entering a battle in itself.   Tramadol is the weakest form of opiod out there.   Sub is used to treat people who are withdrawal from heroin and  high doses of opioid    I would HIGHLY recommend not using subs for tramadol withdrawal.  With the care of a physician you can use meds temp like clonodine. A bp Med and a little sedative for 7 days.     If you start the sub. Tapering off of them is HELL.  THE HALF Life can be as much at 72 hrs. Meaning a complete withdrawal can be 22 days.   Subs are a *****.  Doctors once realizing u are taking them will label u a junkie.   With the new electronic sharing of Med records.  U can't keep your addiction confidential.    Best of luck with your choice
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Just a general comment. First time offering my story so we'll see.   Twelve years ago I had an accident at work. I've had back pain before but not like this. Anyway with my first of many drs since I started with percs.   Thought it helped but even with an addictive personality I was good with getting off.  I remember the day my dr prescribed oxy.   But I still wasn't all that addicted.   So I kept asking for stronger meds and earlier refills.  My wonderful dr in NYC was a happy guy who gladly did what I told him to do.  So.  In less than a year (I swear on my kids). I was being  prescribed 6 30mg roxycontin, 6 80 mg OxyContin, 4(40) mg methadone, 3 Xanax a day, and what makes me cringe a filled script of suboxen at 3 (8mg) a day.   Plus 2 or  3 others.  Honestly.  Now I realize he gave me the subs in case I ran out of the other stuff.   But I wasn't tought how to use it either.  Maybe I was soo high I didn't know what instructions he gave me but I still have the 17 page printout at the cvs pharmacy to back it up.
Soo.  I went through withdrawel.  That year - and many times throughout the last ten.  Oxy withdrawel was the worst.  I would or should have died mixing meds around like I did.   5 years later I got on fentanyl patches.   That was no fun either.   I had the drs conclusions about what pain I should be having so I could rely on talking them through what I needed till I got my scripts.  So.... Like a lot of others I kept his up for a while.  I went to detox 2 or 3 times thinking that's all I needed.  I was never sober long.    
3 years ago I went on suboxen.   My choice.   Ended up at 3 (8mg) a day like before.  But with instructions this time.  It might be the best choice I've made in a long time.   8 days ago I decided to get off.  
I told the dr.  But as always I did what I wanted and did not taper.  I spent 4 days in bed. But now it's a blurr.   It was just as bad as before.  
But this time I didn't have the connection to other drugs as I had in the past.   This time I knew there was hope.  
It's day 9.   I'm still not solid, sleep wake dreaming every night, chills yawns, spiders in the vein occasionally too.  But I'm myself again.  I will have a lot more to deal with in the coming days.  But I've lost a lot and the time that went with it.   If you can -   Do the suboxen route if u have a plan.  
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This post is very old but I felt I needed to respond to it. Doctors are pushing this sh!t like it's the end all be all drug, the fact is it's worse for you than taking regular pain pills. I was taking 4x8mg Subutex a day for 6 years being told that it wasn't a problem. Well it was a problem it destroys your liver, heart and pancreas yes that's right I got type 2 diabetes from it! That's why they are pulling the generic OFF the counters I assume Suboxone/Subutex will be pulled too eventually. It will also and effect you're overall mental stability! Withdrawal took over 1 YEAR and I still have side effects. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but they have a 1 day withdrawal program it's 5k and takes 24 hours to see 90% of the effect go away. But guess what; in my case I was allergic to the antidote. I went into complete psychosis, attacked a nurse, and hallucinated for 5 days with no change in withdrawal. If a doctor EVEN SUGGESTS TAKING SUBUTEX OR SUBOXONE DO NOT TAKE IT!!!! You are much better off taking the pain pills you are on and weaning from those, its hell no doubt but you will be a stronger and better person once you get off the drugs. I hate to admit it but the best drug I have found for helping with withdrawal and pain is pot. I hate pot I don't like how it made me feel but it finally worked and I am sober as of February 21, 2011. The main thing to remember the Doc doesn't get his money if he can't prescribe you his wonder pills. Don't get sucked in, I paid 10k over 6 years to stay on Subutex and 5k for the miracle cure but when it came down to brass tax, I did it on my own and with my family and friends help. If you don't have a support system, even if it is NA/AA, I am not a fan of either organizations because all you do is end up meeting more drug users and find more connections, take what you can get.
God Bless whoever reads this and remember your doctor especially if no insurance is taken is probably not looking out for you, he is looking out for HIS pocketbook!
YOU CAN QUIT YOU JUST HAVE TO BUCK UP AND TAKE IT! ONCE YOU MAKE IT AND YOU WILL, YOU WILL LOOK AT EVERYDAY PROBLEMS LIKE THEY ARE A JOKE!
GOOD LUCK AND GOD BLESS! Even if you don't believe in God, you had better reconsider with out his/her help I would have never made it.
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I don't think it's for anyone to say really that if you used vicodin then you shouldn't be on Suboxene! With that being said I started my addiction on vicodin and progressed and ended up at the end on 15 30mgs roxys (blues)a day! I will say when I ran out of the vicodin the wds werw nothing compared to the DEATH I felt wd off of the blues, however my tolerance is NOT going to be the same as someone else's, it's not up to anyone to say someone on vicodin shouldn't be on subs or they should stick it out!!! Some people just aren't that strong! I know for me taking 15 30mgs roxys a day then waking up with nothing felt like death, idk how anyone else feels! Just wanted to make that clear, an addict is an addict regardless of COD. As for the Suboxene it has been MY godsend!! I'm able to work,visit and play with my 2yr old grandson, watched my son graduate out of the Navy boot camp had I still been using I would have robbed myself of these very precious things. I know using subs incorrectly can be just as dangerous but that's what determines who is really ready to be clean! When I'm ready and at the very minimum of taking the subs I can handle the wd because it will be the right way it's been a miracle for me and I understand it might not have been for others, Suboxene taken the right way and when YOUR ready to be off of them it does work! The last thing I want to say is this: for the comments regarding insurance and the money to pay for subs, let me ask this,I don't have insurance and I pay 150 a month and 420 for a script of 60 subs, if I were still using I would be spending over 2-3000 a month, so why are people complaining about the cost when I know my DOC was costing me twice that? It's a small price for me to pay because I have my life back! No more waking up sick, trying to hustle, looking to score that next pill, there's always pros and cons to any treatment you seek!
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