Tolerance

[pon]

I have not been to this forum for a while...I am at 105 days clean from hydrocone.  I became addicted when I was exposed to it for pain mgmt after a severe shoulder injury.  I used the hydro for approximately 4 months and had built up to a level of about 100mg a day....my question is this, obviously at the peak of my addiction I must have developed a pretty large tolerance to the drug....I have spoken about the whole situation with my Dr and we have an agreement that she will not use any type of opiate pain med agian unless it is a truly desperate situation and in hospital....I am curious though, with the tolerance developed by my addiction, would they even ever work at normal doses?  Does the tolerance developed ever wear off or is it permenant?

thanks,

pon

[Jennibean]

I am not the Dr but I can tell you that yes your tolerance goes away after a period of time. That is proven and the reason many addicts die of overdoses because they will be clean for a while and immediately take a dose they may have taken in the past not realizing they cannot handle that dose anymore. I know just from the many times I have detoxed for a period of time. I may have been up to 10 pills at a time but even after just 3 weeks off of them 5 will usually feel the way 10 did just 3 weeks earlier. I am of course back up to 10 quickly after because I am a sick addict but initially your tolerance deffinately goes back down. You developed a tolerance pretty quickly to be up to 100mg daily after just 4 months but the fact is you only took them for 4 months total and I am quite sure if you needed to take pain meds today that a normal dose would work for you to control pain. Obviously you were not just controlling pain before at 100mg daily because most chronic pain patients who are not addicts don't reach that level for a couple years if ever. It works for pain longer than it gets you high. I am sure right now less than 10 could help my pain, I just self medicate for every other reason. Depression etc. Although this problem is now the cause of all of my depression and no longer the solution. Anyway congrats on the sobriety my biggets prayer is that I can one day say what you just said!
Jen

[pon]

Thanks for the answer...my curiosity stems from the fact that I have now been told that I will have to have another (final hopefully) surgery on my shoulder.  I really do not want to get involved with hydrocodone again at all if I can avoid it.  You are absolutely right, I was not at 100mgs for the pain, it was for the feeling...I liked it and I let myself become addicted.  I should have known better...I am a recovering alcoholic and tomorrow is my 15 year sobriety date from alcohol (12/27/1987 to 12/27/2002 and one day at a time from there)....I should have remembered "once an addict always an addict".  Anyway, I was curious about the tolerance issue because of the surgery.  It is arthroscopic (sp?) and should be very low on pain...so, my doc (who is very aware of what happened after the first two ops and the following 4 months) and I have decided that I will try it with only Tylenol or Advil and see if it can be toughed through.  Her worry is that when there is too much pain, I will be unable to do the necessary therapy program....my feeling is that I would rather deal with the physical pain than become addicted again.  Beating hydro was my second grace of my life and I don't want to risk it...anyway, had just wondered that if the tolerance does not wear off, then why even think of it.  I guess I should have realized that my Dr would have considered that, she is very good and knows every bit of what I did with the hydro (I talked to her when I quit to make sure that if I got weak she wouldn't RX me anything) so I am pretty comfortable with her judgment...other side though is, she ISN'T an addict, so she does not know the fear that putting another vike in my mouth holds for me.  Twice lucky, don't want to try for three....have a very good life after 15 years off booze and I want to keep it.  Thanks.

I haven’t really been posting here since end of Octoberish….hope it still the same place of strength for the folks here now that  it was for me then.  

Jen, you can say what I said….you just have to WANT it bad enough.  I know that sounds simple, and it is NOT, but it is the essence of sobriety.  You have to care enough about you to WANT to quit…you have to accept that you are worth it…that you deserve to be free from the slavery of the pills and have your life to make as you choose.  It is not easy, wasn’t for me either time, won’t be if there is a next time…but it IS worth it.  After I quit drinking and got my life together, I have had a beautiful existence….I am married to the most wonderful person in the world, who is also my best friend, we have two beautiful daughters and a third due in Feb, I have a great job and a wonderful farm.  All thanks to sobriety…there is life on the other side and it CAN be really good….it is just really hard and painful to get there.

If that truly is your biggest prayer, then you can have my prayers too to help…you deserve freedom…you are worth it.  I’ll keep checking the posts for the next few days….write if you’d like, I’ll help if I can, or just talk if you want.

Prayers

Pon

[hippy]

nice to see ya posting.
i to had a severe shoulder problem
wound up with a torn rotator cuff
it hurt like hell before the operation
then after the operation it hurt so bad
i wished i had never gotten the operation
they took the shoulder out of the socket
shaved the inside of the socket  a quater of an inch.
basic decompression, then they sowed up everything.
it took 6 months to heal up write. what a pain full ordeal.
as far as the meds  , vikes  , i took them as prescribed
then i had some horrable death to people in my faml
and i started abuseing the meds too the point of going from 5 a day to 15 to 20 a day.
anywaysmy tolerence was high, but after not taking them for a month it came shooting back down to whwere 5 worked just fine agian, acceept withen a month i was back to thr insanity of takinen almost 20 a day agian.
then i started taking oxy 80's  splitting them in half and they worked great for the pain but gave me head aches, so i would
take a valum 10 for the head aches and to take the edge of thre oxy.
and thus rounfd and round i went  , even after the shoulder
was better,the onw bad thing about he oxy was the vikes
no longer worked at all,
the good thing about the oxy was  no acetamtaphine.(tylnol}

oh well glad to to be past all that crazyness
clean since good friday, march 02.

peace!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[teeitup]

Congratulations! I hope your surgery goes well, if they give you something for pain that is an hydro equal please post and tell how it works. I have a med. condition that will require pain med. of some sort for life.

Hydro has been the only one that seems to relieve the pain but allow me to function. I would like to find something different since I also like the high it gives and the temptation is always there to "abuse" instead of "use".
Thanks and stay strong!

teeitup!

[pon]

HI Hipee, thanks for the info and glad to hear from you ....March '02 is pretty damn good...I am at 106 today and doing well.  Your shoulder thing sounds pretty much similar to mine.  I tore the rotator cuff and a bunch of other cartilage etc....practically pulled my arm off in a horse jumping accident.  Anyway, this last on is just to pick up some 'fiber' tags....doing it arthroscopically, so pain is supposed to be much less.  I am not going near any opiate unless I absolutely have to.  I made a deal with the Dr that if she feels the opiate med is absolutely necessary, then I will take it to her orders, BUT only while I am in the hospital, and no more than 3 days...NO RX AT HOME....I refuse to risk it.  Frankly, it is going to have to hurt pretty damn bad before I would let her do it.  I am happy to be free and don't want back on the merry-go-round...so, I'll let you know.

prayers

pon

Teeitup....I don't know of anything non opiate accept traditional asprin/tylenol/advil....I know there are supposed to be new non steroid things that are non narcotic...but my Dr has always told me that they really are more of an anti-inflammatory type drug than a pain med...she said we save those for when the arthritis starts in my shoulder...so, sorry I really don't know.  My plan is to stick only to asprin/tylenol/advil and grit my teeth.  Some pain is worse than others....and the addiction is the worst pain I know...in all truth, I found the end of my addiction to actually be more painful for me emotionally than the physical pain of my shoulder ever was and worse than the myriad pains of withdrawal....please do your self a favor and don't go for the high, those pills are insidious little things that are trying to steal your life...if you give them the chance, they will.  Sorry not more help, keep posting.

Prayers,

pon

[needhelp1]

Insomnia… Well the last pill I have taken was Monday at 5pm.. and every night my insomnia keeps getting worse. I have been sleeping very light and I am woken by the slightest thing. Last night I woke a 12:30 am and was not able to go back to sleep for more then a ½ hour or so after that. Does anyone else have there insomnia get worse as the first few days progress like mine has? When should I expect a end to this? Also on a different note. I have Kaiser though my workplace. If I was to go there and be totally honest w/ the doctor could my work someone find out through medical records? thanks for any answers
A  

[needhelp1]

FYI, This first relpase after being clean for 3 months. I have been on 90mg of norco or vic a day for almost 2 months.

[Witchywoman]

Hi there needhelp,
Yes, I remember the insomnia. It is and was terrible for me.  It took a full month before I was getting enough good sleep, and really two months before I was sleeping like a baby on my own.

I took benadryl for it, and that actually worked a bit. Sometimes I took elavil, other nights trazadone. They are all non addictive and let me get at least a few hours sleep.  Valium is also an option but only for short term use, the last thing you need is another addiction.

I can answer your Kaiser question. I work for a Kaiser, in the Psych. dept, as a therapist. Your medical records are completely confidential. There is no way that your job can have access to your records unless you personally sign a paper allowing them to see them.  If you tell me which city you are in, I may be able to tell you the name of kind, understanding Doctors that will help. All Kaisers also have chemical dependancy recovery programs, that honestly are very very good and supportive.
Write me at ***@**** if you want more detailed info, as it's probably not smart of me to say where I live and work online like this.

The worst of the wds will be over in 5 days, then you will be smacked with intense lethargy and fatigue.  Use the L-Tyrosine that Thomas recommends, it does help some with that. But mostly we have to just tough it out and TRUST that you will feel better soon. It might take a few weeks to a month, but you will feel better. Just don't pick up that first pill.

by the way, there are a number of supplements and nutriceuticals that really do help heal the damage done to our receptor sites.
Deprenyl helps actually boost dopamine, so is great to use with the L-Tyrosine. Hydregine helps stabilize the oxygen supply to the brain and helps form stronger and new dendrite connections. Acetyl L Carnitine does as well.

A site that describes these various helpful amino acids and medications is http://www.antiaging-systems.com/home1.htm

I take a ton of supplements from them, and feel much better due to it. I've been clean now since late August 2001, and am living proof that it can be done. It isn't easy, and I've had my share of close calls with cravings and close calls with relapse. Harder still with the chronic back pain I have. But one day at a time, I make a choice to not abuse meds. The rest of the days take care of themselves. It is a daily choice, and one that has brought me joy as well as acceptance that life sometimes requires us to FEEL pain without chasing it away.

take care,
WW

[needhelp1]

Can i get elavil or trazadone over the counter of perscription only? BTW. you have mail. Thank you for the help..

A

[hellbent]

The insominia can be maddening. Not to scare you, but I went 23 days and snatched maybe 8 hours sleep the entire period when I was withdrawing. I'd get 20 minutes between 4:30AM and 6:00AM, like every third day. Horrible. That was Oxycontin, and Klonopin, cold turkey. I heard a saying, "Nobody ever died from lack of sleep". Whether that's true or not I don't know, but it helped me to repeat it to myself.

Sleep patterns will usually always return, and for you I am sure they will. This is just part of the price we pay for long term drug usage. Things will turn, but in their own time. The trick is to stick it out until that happens.

[Witchywoman]

elavil and trazadone are both prescription only. They are the old class of tricyclic antideppressants. In low doses they do help with sleep, but be prepared for a dry mouth and a foggy feeling. I can't imagine how anyone ever got better from depression on them, they make me feel kinda crappy, but they do help with sleep.

I'll check my mail now.

love,
WW

[needhelp1]

thanks for the comments. Today is Day 4. Im going to a meeting tonight. i am able to get about 4-5 hour sleep a night but mostly tossing a turning. I know i had insmonia my first detox but it wasnt this bad... i hope i can get a good night rest soon. only time will help...
A

[pon]

Witchy and Hellbent are right...it will pass...it is different for every person.  They both had it really tough, I didn't, mine passed in about 5 days...so, you may be lucky too.  Thing to remember is it WILL pass, but only if you stay clean.  Today I am at 106 days from hydro and exactly 15 years from alcohol...sobriety beats the alternative hands down...my life is wonderful sober, it became hell addicted.  Stick with it, you are worth it...it IS tough, but it can be done and it is defenitely better on the other side...

prayers

pon

[needhelp1]

I never want to pick up another vicodin again. They have wrecked my life so far. I can only look my to when i was clean i remeber what it was like to actually be a person. I hope i get that feeling so again. There is no looking back this time. and i know that i cant just do it once.
A

[Witchywoman]

It's good to see you posting again, and even better to be able to see postings from those of us who can honestly say that life can and does get better on the other side of this.

Yes, detox is hell, but life post detox, if you do the emotional work on yourself, can be wonderful.  I think it is important to offer experiences that give folks who are facing detox HOPE.  Life is not perfect when clean, but it is a hell of a lot better than being a slave to a pill and chasing a high that will never return.

Life clean is Life. Sometimes blissfull, sometimes shattering, but we FEEL what really is.

A few words I've read today on this site are very key.
You have to work on believing that you are worth it. Spiritual pursuits help, if you have a spirituality that is right for you.
Leave the shame behind and know that you are worth and can and will get better.

The sun is getting brighter and brighter every day, even though it looks very dark at 5pm.  It's always darkest before the dawn.
There is such a thing as a happy  recovered addict. Want it. Want it with every cell and fiber of your being. Put as much energy into recovery as you put into the addiction and your chances of crossing over to the land of sunshine increase substantially.

with love and holy day greetings to you and all,

WW

[Bodymechanic]

There is some truth to the cliche 'once an addict always an addict'. I agree that tolerance will drop. Unfortunately, once addicted there seems to be a permanant memory in the brain for the addictive substance. From that point on, your brain will recognize and quickly begin to adjust to the addictive substance.  The second time around, tolerace will build much more quickly. You will also become addicted much more quickly.

[pon]

the later part of your post is exactly whgy I don't want her to give me any opiate pain killers...I am fearful of even a very short duration putting me right back on the merry-go-round  I don't want to risk it...not with 106 days under my belt and feeling good

pon

[pon]

hi....I have been away for a while enjoying exactly what you described LIFE...I am back because I am afraid on my upcoming surgery and its implications...although I have pretty much convinced myself after the last two days posting that I am going to tell my Dr that I don't care how much it hurts, I will not accept even one single dose of opiates...not worth the risk...too much to lose…106 days free, and I am NOT going back to slavery.

To all of you who are struggling in detox right now...IT IS WORTH IT…life clean may not always be great, although a lot of the time it is….but at least you are free, not a slave to a pill…the choices about your life are yours…you make them—the drugs don’t….THAT IS WORTH IT AND SO ARE YOU !

pon

[teeitup]

Hey you guys doing okay? let us know your okay!

teeitup!

[Rex1]

Yeah, I have been wondering about you and some others too.

If you are lurking let us know.

Feel free to email me at ***@****

Rex

[suzieneedshelp]

WW.. lovely post. We sure misse d ya!
Pon.. I believe tolerance is an ingrained trait.  Mine has always been high and even if i did nt use fo r monthes.   I needed 120 mg of demoral which they said would knock out a 300 pnd man.  Most get about 25 mg in a shot.  So.. in response to your quesitno...it is a tendancy we have.  I know people who get knocke d out by aspirin!  Geezz!
Peace,
Suzie
P.S. i am on my final detox from stadol now.  Day one is about over!

[Rex1]

Way to go!!!!!!!!!!

Hang in there, be tough, throw stuff, do whatever it takes!

New years is on its way....


Rex

[pon]

Way to GO!!! Congrats on day one!  You are on your way to a freedom you have been missing...one stolen from you by the pills...

I am at 107 days and happy...

Since I have been back posting my original question has become moot for me...I have decided to tell my Dr that I will not accept any opiates at all regardless of the pain level.  I am lucky that my pain is only of a temporary nature due to the upcoming operation...not the horrible constant pain that many here suffer...so I will grit my teeth and take advil

So, I have made my choice...NEVER AGAIN....too much at risk

prayers

pon

[hippy]

hey pon . the forcast for you sounds good.
i am glad your pain is temp. and not
the severe nagging kind that make you feel
like you are stuck in a box under water
suffacating.

peace to you and congrats on 107

your freind hippy,
with love and respect
it's alway nice to read good news.

[Chezz2]

Pon,

Glad to see you are still out there.
And that you came back when you knew a choice was coming.
I would write more, but I just can't right now.
My Mom passed away, right before Xmas. So I am having a rough time trying to deal with it.
Chezz

[hippy]

i am sorry to hear of your loss
my condolences go out to you and your famly.

i hope you are okay, i know from presonal experence
how devastating losing a famly member can be.
especally a parent.

my prayers are with you.

michael.

[saveyourself]

My condolences on the loss of your mother,  Man it is so heart breaking.  I lost my mom 8-21-00, then my dad died 12-3-00. They had become my best friends and thank God got to see me clean for alot of years. No words can convey what your going through, your in my prayers.
Greg

[lisabet]

Dearest Chezz, I just want to say I'm so sorry to hear about the passing of your mother. God bless you and your family. You'll be in my thoughts and prayers.  Love, Lisabet

[teeitup]

Hang in there, I'll be thinking of you!

teeitup!

[pon]

My friend, there are not words to tell you how sad I am for you right now...you know I lost my brother last May and I know where you are right now.

I will be thinking of you Chezz, I'm around if you want to e-mail.  I am back at work from vacation tomorrow, but I will check my yahoo e-mail a couple of times a day.

Take care of your self my friend, and remember there are a lot of us here if you need or want us.

prayers,

pon

[pon]

thanks...it is good news and I am happy to have been able to see the right decision...no point in playing with fire...I don't want to get burned...it hurts to much.

prayers to you my man, have a great new year!

pon

[Chezz2]

Thanks guys,
I appreciate your support and words. I really am having a hard time with this and feel like I am just so lost most of the time right now.
I have to fly out on the 2nd. The service is going to be on the 4th. It has also been hard just dealing with that also since I have been the one to pretty much set it up and all.
The sick thing is that her house was broken into, and her car stolen a couple days after she passed. That is just so unreal to me. I can't imagine the hell they will pay when it is there turn...
We were left with some pictures and a few other items to remember her by. That is really all that matters. The rest of the material possessions are just that.....material items.
I just want my Mom back...
Chezz

[Rex1]

I am so sorry to hear about your loss. I hope that you find comfort and peace, Chezz.

God bless...

Rex

[madeline]

Hey everyone,

What a good posting site.  You all sound
like you have had some rough times, but
came thru them.  Well I am addicted to
percocet from a knee surgery. Up to about
12-15 a day now, and trying to wean down.
Before that it was alcohol on and off.
However quit alcohol about 8 weeks ago,
since the percocet I liked better.  Well
now every time I try to stop the WD come
fast and hard causing me and my addiction
to start popping again.  Am afraid of detox
ing and want to wean slowly as I have a
chance at a job I have been wanting for
so long.  If I up and leave now I wont
get it.  Thought I could taper myself
down slowly.  Is it possible?  They did
send me for a drug test, (the job) but
I thought cause I have a prescrip and its
legal they may still hire me.  I havent
heard yet.  It involves driving.  I really
need the job. Do you think I could wean
off and get the job all at once?  Hey I
am gonna pray for all you guys, and please
keep me in your prayers.

Madeline

[Post50]

I am so glad that I've found this site.  Just yesterday I went to a "Pain Management Specialist" at the suggestion of my Family Dr.  Honestly, I don't know where to start, but this man made me feel like some kind of criminal.  He started the appointment talking about people who file law suits against Dr.'s.  Then he told me that I was taking too much Oxicontin (10mg 4xdaily).  He noted that I had taken 200 7.5 Lortab in a months time prior to that.  I didn't deny any of this, it was true...But I was there for some sort of "alternative"...He gave me one.."I don't know what you should do".. He basically didn't want to see me or treat me.  He suggested that I deal with my depression, because I cried in his office.  I'm already on a antidepressant.  I don't feel depressed.  Am I just another hysterical female, and depressed because of the way that he treated me?  He said that he would call my family doc and have him call me.  My family doc called me yesterday afternoon.  He said that the Pain Guy is concerned because I ws taking too much Oxicontin, needed counceling because of depression, and that I should have a knee replacement.  Now, either I'm completely out of the loop, or these guys just plain, don't get it...I've been diagnosed with Fibromyalgia.  I know that the answer is not life-long pain meds.
How many of you have had the same sort of treatment?  What is wrong with a Medical Profession who starts you on these drugs and then nobody wants to treat you after you've been on them for about 6 months or so.  I've never gone above the prescribed dosage.  I've never "Dr. shopped"... I just don't understand..Have any of you ever gotten the same treatment?  From what I've read here and other places it looks like I'm not taking too much of anything...Am I?
Thanks in advance....

[Rex1]

Unfortunately, it sounds as if you have simply run into the wrong doctors.

My experience with my pain management specialist was the complete opposite of yours.  He was nothing short of extremely sympathetic, and as I have said here previously, "partnered" with me to get off hydrocodone.  It was in fact my regular doctor that behaved as you have described.

Also keep in mind that this is a very busy time of the year for them -- with everyone who's on medication starting a new year's resolution of some kind or another.

If you can find another doctor, I would do so.  But sometimes these doctors respond better when you speak to a head honcho at the insurance company.  After all, that's who pays them.

You can always switch your insurance over to another group, and find a pain management specialist within that new group.  If you can't wait for the insurance to change over, pay out of pocket for the first appointment until the insurance kicks in.

Good luck...

Rex