Tolerence build up

[Dee]

Maybe someone can answer this for me. I was doing like alot of you from what i'm reading, going from Dr. to Dr. in order to get enough pills. I was taking vicodin and norco for about 3 years and then one Dr. was giving me ultram so i was taking them in between the other 2 just to try to make them last untill the next rx. well the dr that was giving me ultram stopped giving them, my question is, is it possible that even though i'm  still taking the vicodin and norco,that i could be having withdrawls from not taking the ultram, because i haven't felt the same since i stopped the ultram.Or have i just gone to a different platue and built  more tolerence to the vicodin and norco to where my body is craving more. Please, if any one has gone through something similar i would love to hear from you.

[Dee]

what's up with this????? first, there's ME, the original DEE,
then comes DEE DEE, and now ANOTHER DEE, is someone playing games with me or what??????

[dee dee]

To Dee, I posted you a comment this morning Feb. 16 under Vicojen Feb. 13 That would explain the mix up. It's even confusing me now. I'm sorry.

[chad]

Yes.  But it shouldn't be that bad because you have other meds to level you out right? From my experience with Ultram, I know that it should be taken off the market.  Have you ever really read about it?  It's nasty stuff that really doesn't work that well...(In my opinion)
Take Care
Chad

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

I was wondering how things are going with you these days.  There have been two Chads here and I think that I know which one you are.  The other one talked about Oxy all the time.  Anyway, I just wanted to say that you sound pretty good now and I hope you can stay around and keep sharing with us.  J.B.

[chad]

Yeah this is the "newer Chad" I've been great, thanks for asking.  How have you been?  I am still an addict but I take everything one day at a time you know?  That's all we can do. yuppity duppity, Write Back
ChadB

[leases]

thank you all for spending your time putting your thoughts on-line.  It has really helped me.  I know there is probably a better place to ask this question, and I have searched rxlist.com up and down, but is there such thing as a 10/500 pill?  My Dr. said he wanted to cut me back on the acetaminophen so I am positive he said it was 10 (hydrocodone) / 500 (acetaminophen).  I saw Norco was 10/325 and there was a 10/650..but no 10/500...
I know I am being in-sensitive with this post but you all are very educated and I know can answer my simple question.  Everyone has a safe and "stay busy" weekend.

[Gene to Joanne]

I used to get Lortabs from my doctor.  They were basically double strenght Vicodins.  10 mgs of Hydrocodone & 500 mgs of Aceteminophen.  I liked them because they were relatively low in their Tylenol content & high in their opiate ingredient.

I want to make sure that everyone on this forum is aware of Milk Thistle.  It is an herb available in any health food store & now, most pharmacies.  It has been proven to be very effective in helping to keep the liver healthy & even reversing liver damage in some cases.

I started using it when I found out about it's use as a liver detoxifier.  I take one capsule every day 7 days a week.  I no longer worry about liver damage from my daily doses of various medications.

Gene

[chad]

Gene is correct.  That's what I get.  It's a little oblong blue pill.

[dee dee]

To Gakster, thank you so much for the info about milk thistle. I, like everyone else is scared about the damage we could be doing to our liver. I even tried  putting the vicodin in warm water stiring to dissolve and letting it set in the refrig. for 20 minutes . Then sucking with a straw to retrive only the top where the opiate was and the taste was so bitter i couldnt do it. I have a thing about gaging with liquid medications. so what ever was ailing my drain as far as pain it got a little relief that day. I am new to this site and i want to thank everyone for the great advise. After i have my hand surgery next week and i really dont need the pain meds i am going to try my first attempt at detoxing. I will need all the encouragement i can get. Thank you all for the good advise i'm getting here.

[leases]

umm..my are oblong but are white...I really would like to find out what they are before I take one.  Thank you all for you responding...Mine have a M363 on the pill.

[FlowerChild11601]

Yes, your white pills are probably generic name lortab (same as the blue oblong just different company).  I didn't look this up in a reference book but am 98% sure this is correct from experience.  God Bless, Maryanne

[cindi]

Dee, I had been throug the replacing ultram withthe vicodi/Norco and i never went through the ultram withsrawals while taking something else. I even at one time detoxed from ultram with darvocet.  Hope this helps  cindi

[spook]

The mode of action of ULTRAM is not completely understood, laboratory studies suggest that at least two complementary mechanisms appear applicable: binding of parent and M1 metabolite to opioid receptors(which ones?) and weak inhibition of the reuptake of norephinephrine and serotonin(regional?).
You really should just try to stick to ONE Opioid,I suggest Morphine as it naturally occurs in the human body(made by your liver)thus it is not some crazy man made chemical,that you may or may not have enzyme systems to metabolize properly.
If you feel like a lab rat you now know why,remember everybody has different responses to chemicals and that receptor specificity and subtype binding varies between classes of Analgesics,so YES you may have simualtanious withdrawal(dysphoria) and euphoria(or analgesia).  

[Brighty]

I am impressed and intrigued by your replies. I did not know that the liver makes morphine... I bet many of us think it's made in the brain mainly because of the association with endorphins. I am curious, is the morphine made by the body the same as the morphine derived from the poppy ?? Love, Brighty

[Gloria]

Ultram binds with mu receptors and inhibits the reuptake of norepinephrine and serotonin, which is believed to account for Ultram's analgesic effect.  Morphine binds with and activates opioid receptors (primarily mu receptors) in the brain and spinal cord to produce its analgesic and euphoric effects.  
I, too, am curious about your comment "...Morphine as it naturally occurs in the human body (made by your liver)..."  I am aware that most of the metabolism of opiates occurs in the liver, primarily through conjugation with glucuronic acid.  I was not aware that the liver makes Morphine.  My knowledge of Morphine is that it is taken directly from the milky juice of the poppy (Papaver somniferum).  Please enlighten us.  
Best wishes,
Maria

[Brighty]

Thank you for a great post ! And also for your kind words in another thread. Your professional background will be so helpful here as most of us are lay people and the doctor cannot keep up with all of us. I do hope you continue to be active and also share how you have accomplished 15 years of recovery.... that is inspirational! I also hope Spook replies since I asked him for explanations in another thread as well... this whole "mystery" of addiction is something we should all understand... it would clear up alot of misinformation and also the stigmas attached. Hope you stay with us. Love, Brighty

[Gloria]

Having followed this forum for several months, I have been reluctant to post because I have tremendous time constraints.  I feel that posting on a forum like this is much like the commitment of marriage--do not take the vows unless you plan on seeing it through until the end.  My viewpoint might seem grandiose or idealistic to some, but it is this type of commitment/dedication that has afforded me the years of recovery I have enjoyed.  My recent postings and current desire to post have occurred out of my concerns regarding medical misinformation being dispensed freely throughout this forum.  I must pick and choose my battles, but for those reading this comment, PLEASE do not assume that the medical information you read on this (or other forums) is factual.  Anyone can access medical reference sites, but not everyone has the knowledge to understand the information given.  For every study that corroborates a form of treatment, there is a study to deny the positive outcome.  Case in point:  Phen-fen/Redux.  All previous studies showed use of these medications caused an increase in heart valve damage and a disease known as Primary Pulmonary Hypertension.  A study published a couple weeks ago stated the cardiac damage to be minimal and that some people actually had improvement in their cardiac function from using these medications.  What some people were unaware of was the fact that the study was partially funded by the makers of Redux, which I felt added an element of bias to the study results.  I do not want to appear as a naysayer, but would like to urge readers to be cautious when following medical advice on the 'net unless the site/questions are answered by licensed physicians--even that does not guarantee legitimacy, but helps.  It all boils down to opinions and we all have one.  Much of the advice given on this forum is excellent--most of it comes from the heart of the writer and is based on THEIR life experiences.  That type of advice does not come from a textbook, nor is it learned in a classroom.  We all have so much to learn, and even more to give.  That is what is at the core of this forum and what makes it so great!  
Brighty, best wishes to you and your family.  I plan to continue following this forum and wish all the participants health, happiness, and success on their quest for recovery.

[spook]

Amazingly enough ALL "mammals"including HUMANS produce naturally within their livers:Codeine,Morphine and 6-o-acetylmorphine(effectively HEROIN)and weird as it may seem ,the Human and other Mammals use the same STEPS as the Opium Poppy to Synthesize these NATURAL CHEMICALS,otherwise known as illegal drugs.
Conversely the 3 above mentioned DRUGS(Natural Chemicals) when taken externally ie in pills etc are METABOLIZED by the liver,for example in the case of codeine(Methylmorphine) a Cytochrome enzyme cyp2d6 assists in the demethylation of approx 10% of it to Morphine.
At this point Scientists have NO idea what purpose mammals make these drugs for within their livers,But now you are enlighened was not life for learning?,love living your life learning.

[PS >>>>Annie]

Do you practice what you preach?  Just remember what you say:  Life is for learning.  There are many levels and categorys of learning.  Are you open minded? Are you willing to be taught or to just be an informer?? We all have much to learn and the journey goes on.

[PS >>>>Annie]

....We all must be careful of WHAT we learn, and should be aware of the MESSENGER bestowing knowledge.

[spook]

I am learning about myself just by reading the questions you ask in response to my statements,I am very open minded,and often NEED to be taught a lesson,I tend to be Grandiose,but egoless,sometimes I need reminding I am not the only person on the planet.When one is UP and others around them are losing their heads,be empathetic and feel their pain but do not let it get you down,offer your hand to those that ask for it but be prepared to wipe away blood left in their bite marks.

[Gloria]

Would you mind giving me a resource/bibliography regarding morphine, codeine, and heroin being produced naturally by the liver?  I have attempted to find such info and have not been successful.  The prototypic opiates, morphine and codeine (3-methoxymorphine) are taken directly from the milky juice of the poppy.  The semisynthetic drugs produced from morphine or thebane molecules include hydromorphone, diacetylmorphine (heroin), and oxycodone.  Sharing many of the basic properties of opium and morphine are meperidine, propoxyphene, diphenoxylate, fentanyl, buprenorphine, methadone, and pentazocine.  Spook, are you referring to the endogenous opioid peptides (i.e. enkephalins, endorphins, dynorphin, and others) that were identified in the 70's, as appearing to be natural ligands for opioid receptors; when you say the "liver naturally produces...?"  Of course, these peptides are present within POMC, the precursor to ACTH--all involved in neuroendocrine regulation.  I would like a clarification if you have the time, please.  Thanks!  Maria

[spook]

As you are well aware Endorphins(end`ogenous m`orphin`e)are peptides,which are amino acids linked together.Whereas Morphine and its analogues are based on a much more complicated structure,the  Five rings of which are lettered A (aromatic), B (cyclohexane), C (cyclohexene), D (piperidine) and E (tetrahydrofuran). All of the derivatives of morphine which possess this basic ring structure have a high addiction liability which is proportional to their analgesic activity.
I am looking at a book in the Medical University Library and chapter 2 is called "Opioids" I photocopy the entire chapter and on page 17 is a paragraph as follows;
"Even more obscure is the physiologic role in mammalian brain of endogenous morphine,codeine,and 6-acetylmorphine,synthesized in the liver (using the same steps as the opium poppy)and transported accross the blood-brain barrier as a presumed peripheral-to-central hormone.11"
So the reference is 11 and I do not even remember the name of the Book I copied the Chapter on Opioids from!.
All I know is that I believe it to be a very trustworthy textbook and believe that in the context of the article,Humans where included in the mammalian definition,I will try to find the Book again and check what/who reference 11 is and I bet it is a bunch of research scientists,who have not only found these Opioids in a whole range of mammals but also taken the time to find the exact biosynthetic route.
What is so amazing about all this?,I could rave on about DMT being produced within the Pineal gland and being released at the point of Death,If you have ever compared the experiences of DMT users with near death experiences it would blow your mind.
My real interest is in Physics and the determination of the structure and nature of Consciousness,I believe that Quantum Mechanics may hold clues to the nature of consciousness as the molecules of the brain do not,sure emotions and cognition can be explained on a bioelectrochemical level,but the source of consciosness alludes the Scientists.Every time I try to find answers to my questions my two favorate studies pop up Neuropsychopharmacology and Quantum Relativistic Physics.
The super string theory and quantum universe theory helps bring this supernatural entity of consciousness,somehow back into the world of atoms,our brain,Which is illuminated by consciousness.
I am conscious of being aware of feeling and thinking,I am not merely "AWARE".  

[spook]

POMC (Pro-opio-melano-cortin)Gives rise to Beta-endorphin,
although present in pituitary,hypothalamus,locus coeruleus and limbic areas is also present in the Midbrain(the centre of eminance of consciousness)
VTA (ventral tegmental Area)is a part of the Midbrain and what a coincidence is the pleasure area that Opioids exert their main effect through,what is this relationship between consciousness and pleasure/pain?.

[PS >>>>Annie]

I can see why you were atheist or bordaline athiest.  The scientific knowledge that you possess offers conflict or interferes w/ the spiritual aspect.  I may be getting way over my head here, but I'm somewhat puzzled by what you say you believe and what you put out here.  You speak of the conscious.  Do you believe this is part of the soul??  How do  you feel about Darwin?? How do you feel obout the New age movement?  Forgive me, but I'm somewhat confused about where you are coming from.  As far as the conscious goes or senses, don't you believe that you could be dabbling into one of "the mysteries," and may never fully "know" what you are seeking.  You speak against Western Society.....Are you a Pantheist or you involved in an ism, like relativism, esotericism.  I may be way off base here, I do realize.
Satan comes in many faces, and is willing to change his strategy to suit his audience.  I believe that the West is his primary target, and that Eastern Religion is being put-together in ways that mix in w/ contemporary American-Canadian mindset.  The lies of The Garden are being given under labels that appeal to this gerneration of Westerners.
While our Nation builds missiles and bombs...there is a different kind of battle being waged for our hearts.  This battle is in the supernatural world...a worlwide spiritual revolution is taking place.  Be careful!
Sorry for babbling here....but cant help my curiosity...I know THAT killed the cat.

[Brighty]

Wow...I won't touch this one... afterall my excuse is this is a medical forum not a spirutual philosophies forum :-)) see how I squirmed out of that one ?? :-)) I cannot help stating my view of the Darwin theory... that anthropological and scientific evidence proves we evolved from lower life forms does not bother me one bit... I believe it is true and part of the Creator's plan for the universe and this planet... but when "man" was finally in HIS image and likeness he breathed a soul and a free will into him. He has left us to discover the mysteries of the evolution of the planet and the far reaches of the cosmos..but we are His highest creation. Love, Brighty

[Gloria]

Spook, thanks for the reference--that was my point, exactly.  The peptides are produced in the brain, but synthesized by the liver.  I appreciate you taking the time to answer.  I also, very much appreciate you showing us the "human" side of you and not just the "textbook" version.  Your input to this forum is greatly appreciated and very thought provoking.  Maria

[PS >>>>Annie]

I'm irritating anyone, and carry myself over to the Spiritual Philosophy Forum.  With me I'll bring my never ending questions about addiction and Pain.  I'm sure it won't take long to get the boot from over there too.  LOL
FOR YALL INFORMATION.....THEY WERENT LETTING ME POST....I KEPT GETTING ERROR MESSAGES......WHAT EVER HAPPEND TO FREE SPEECH...OH DARE I SAY.  BEWARE WHAT YOU OFFER TO THIS FORUM.  ITS BIASED!!!
bRIGHTY...AH AH AH bUT YOU DID TOUCH ON IT, and very well I must say.  I've been waiting for this response, and so it comes.  Why is it, that everything else is sooo accepted, but dare someone bring spirituality into the mix!  Well, it all ties in.  There are many things touched on here, that shall I say, "don't pertain" to the topic at hand.  You see I only offer spiritual advice and verification of the facts.

[spook]

I believe that consciousness IS the soul/spirit(true self) and the structure of the soul is not made of atoms(like our brains are),I believe the soul(Consciousness)exists in smaller structures buried in the quantum energy matrix of subspace,at a level smaller than Quarks and leptons.
I believe that once on this planet before life existed,their was NOT a chance combination of atoms into primitive amino acids etc that over millions of years evolved to life(self replicating units) as we now percieve it.What I think is these pinpoints of consciousness permiate all space and were therefore present on this barren planet also,then through complex electrogravitional systems the atoms arranged themselves upon these godlike templates of consciousness,the rest is natural selection,so does not conflict with Darwinism.I am not sure if we have a personal soul or we are all part of a collective consciousness.
The secrets of Life and the Universe cannot be understood nor do we have words to describe it even if it could,people have enough trouble understanding their own behaviour let alone have time to speculate on such mysteries.I believe that their is some organized system that determines how much Spirit(consciousness) and what organism it will reside in,maybe it is god who arranges these things.I do not think many people want to see their pure consciousness it scares them and reminds them they ARE alive they grip onto worldly pleasures.
Do you remember if you existed before you where concieved?Past lives etc?I do not,But when I was less than 2 years old I can remember thinking here I am again,like same person but different body,time and place,I do not fear death as "I" is consciousness and the old me is already dead,I called that my EGO(false self).Maybe it will be resurrected one day,but for now their are to many big ego`s dominating all over this planet.

[PS >>>>Annie]

You offer sound information and reasonable concern.  I'm glad you are here to keep our minds on track and aware of ....well you know.

[PS >>>>Annie]

Speak in comprehendable language.  Call me a dummy if you like, but I have to read your post, in the words of my dear friend Cindi, not once, not twice but thrice!  I will drag that little human w/in you to the surfice sooner or later.  
Maybe we are on diffent super planes.......ya know what I mean??

Just a little humor here.  You do believe in humor dont you??

[Brighty]

You offer yourself... that is service to another which is what we are called to do.... I dont' know why you think you will be booted !!! Your comments are very welcome as far as I'm concerned. Most people here are polite and tolerant... I know I babble alot and get put up with.  My comment does not mean that spirituality is not connected to everything about us and I do  think there is alot of spiritual exchange here. However, when we begin to discuss spirituality that is not connected to the context of our addictions I think we may be going beyond the purpose of this forum. They do delete many things for space and I know that after a day or so my valentine sentiments and the personal stuff not related to addiction medicine has been removed... I do not have any reason to believe that is to be biased toward me or anyone. So if we are going to discuss evolution or all those other isms.... well... I doubt if it's appropriate here . I am certain that I did not need to offer my belief about the evolution theory.. we had a thing about scientology that came up once and they were deleted pretty quickly. Basically spirituality as it relates to addiction or our supportive sentiments are about all that we can do.... I think if your posts were mainly about religion then maybe that's why they didn't go up... but maybe something else... length...this is not a live forum with a webmaster monitoring what can go up... so I think if they find something not subject appropriate they just remove it when they see it. You can contact ***@**** and ask about the errors. Love, Brighty

[PS >>>>Annie]

I do agree, and that's why I was so hesitant to open that can of worms.  You just get realed in.  There are people here that do need support more than sound doctrine, I'm sure.  I do believe the reason my post about Darwin didnt go up was because it was to long.  I just got a little worried, cause I'v posted much longer statements before and so has everyone else...and the post went through.
Well, I probably wont be posting a whole lot anyway...I'll be tied up (so to spk) next week.  I'll be giving the old board a rest.  By the way, I never doubted for a minute that most of the people here are nice.....Esp. Tom (whom I miss), JB, Cindi, maria, dee dee, Chad, Maryanne,,,and you too, Brighty.
In closing.....Although it did get a bit out of hand, all my desire to help comes from deep w/in my heart.  I dont know why I care so much, but I do.

[Brighty]

God bless you... caring is a fine thing... I feel lucky that you care about me... I did not want this to be a negative experience because we all have different beliefs and sometimes we are sure we are right... and as we progress in our spiritual journey we look back and see ourselves.... I am usually very embarassed when I do this. Love, Brighty

[spook]

http://www.drsteve.org/intro2.html#g-d

Exactly if you can solve your addiction through God,spirit,or your own soul that is fine,but do not push an Organized Religion.You will notice I offer one possible explanation of life and I use Science and its methods to support my THEORIES.
Read about DR Steve he answers the questions too and is a Qualified "Addiction" Psychiatrist,have a look at his spiritual beliefs.
I know I must confuse people as Science and Spiritual matters seem to annililate each other and to my belief have not been adequately explained before on Neuropsychopharmacological premise,I am not a man of "faith",that I am certain of.

[Brighty]

Kindly do not continue to include my name with anyone else's unless we are both wanting the same information... it is deceptive to readers that I would have the same concerns, questions, issues as Annie in this case. I do NOT and your post to both of us would indicate that I am pushing organized religion, asking you to justify your spiritual beliefs and so on... I have no clue what Dr. Steve's beliefs are nor have I ever questioned that either.... also, I have not professed to feel he is more or less qualified or correct in his replies than you or anyone else here. You did this in another thread today... address me and Annie in the same post.  I do not have the same desire as Annie to evangelize to you... in fact I have replied to her in such a way in another thread last night,to indicate I do not wish to receive information on HER beliefs either. I have sought to be non-judgemental and non-negative toward your comments and in fact have enjoyed your distinctive style and good information. But I do draw the line at you lumping me into your comments as they do NOT pertain to anything I have said or think. Please be more accurate and sensitive the next time you consider adding my name to someone else's concerns. Love, Brighty ( who has an ego )

[PS >>>>Annie]

WOW!  We sure have stirred up a mess.  Actually things were quite calm and tranquil, before all this.  You believe what you want, and I'll do the same.  Maybe we should stay far across the board from one another.  LOL

In closing I will leave you with this, along w/ my Goodbye:

He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him.  By this we know that we are in HIM. he who says he abides in Him ought himself walk just as He walked.  [ I John 2:4]

ANNIE  (:

[PS >>>>Annie]

Just to set the record straight......I DO NOT PROMOTE ORGANIZED RELIGION. I repeat: I do not believe in organized religion.

.....or the cosmos  lol

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

I was raised not to argue about religion and politics.  There was a third thing but it escapes me(money?, raising kids?)  I just like to say that I am a spiritual person and leave it at that.  Our actions will always speak louder than our words in life.  I will listen to anyone's opinion with the same respect that I expect.  In being human, we are not right all the time nor are we wrong all the time either.  I value the input that others give me, use what I can and store the rest.  J.B.

[Gloria]

I agree 100%.  Your input is always timely, valued, and thoughtful.  Warmest regards to you and your wife.  Maria

[dee dee]

To Annie, What day is your surgery next week?I want to send a prayer your way. And of course all my best wishes.I don't read all the things in these post, just bits and pieces, so sometimes i'm confused on what i'm reading. I hope i'm reading wrong if you said your not going to post here because i like your input, or did you mean you wont be posting  due to your surgery?DeeDee

[PS >>>>Annie]

JB...Although I have been caught up in a tail spin, You and your wife have been on my mind.  I do hope you will keep in touch during her treatments.  We want to be a source of support for you.  I felt realy bad when reading some of the post addressed to you and your wife, and realized that I had not responded to you in a while.  It's just that I had seen something going on here (between  the lines) that had to be dealt w/ from another point.
Ya know cancer has plagued my family...Also my best friend past away in "98, she was just 31 with 2 children the same age as mine.  One of my grandparents died last year from Cancer.  My Dad had skin cancer (is ok now) just a while ago.  I could go on and on.  There have been many, and many have won the battle.  It's a terrible thing.  Your wife is fortunate to have you.  I feel fortunate to have known you even if its just through a screen in the form of words.

Your comment means a great deal to me.  You have the wisdom of Solomon and a heart of gold.  Although I reveal my own heart a little more than I like, I will never be embarrassed of what I say here on this forum, because we all need to do that a little more.  The world would be a much better place!  Be strong and its ok to give me a little kick every now and then......My husband does....ha ha......Stay in touch!

[PS >>>>Annie]

Hi!.....You must have been posting at the same time that I was posting to JB.  I will be having surgury this Thursday.  I'm glad you asked about my statement.  Good to hear from you, also.
I will probably not be on a whole lot next week, because of the surgury.  I told Brighty that I would not go into depths over Biblical Doctrine, as I was w/ Spook.  I agree w/ her, this is not a Spiritual Philosophy Forum; although, I will say this....I will never, and I mean never, deny anyone the truth and spiritual uplifting, IF THEY ASK.  If I had to do that.....then I could not post here anymore, because this is what I offer in the way of "help"; which, I believe can do no harm here.
It means so much to me to know I will be in your prayers.  This is what brought me back from the grave several years ago.  God bless you! Keep in touch.
Love,
Annie

[PS >>>>Annie]

Hey sister......I don't have the plague you know..(Re: your post to Spook ^) I'm just kidding...I understand what you meant, and rightfuly so.  I joke around sometimes if ya noticed.  We all need a good laugh, don't we?  As I told JB, ok to give me a lil kick every now and then.....Just had a thought: I say we name you Forum Referee! lol
Peace sister and Love,
Annie (:

[Brighty]

I will be remembering you in my prayers regarding your upcoming surgery on Thursday. I pray that it will produce the best possible results for you and that you will be able to get relief from your pain. Take care of yourself and don't allow anything external to get you stressed... you have enough going on !! Love, Brighty

[cindi]

I agree with JB, I always repect the views and opinions of others, I suppose you could say I am very open minded and always interested in what others have to say.  Variety, the spice of life thing?  That is what makes the world go round.  But, On the other hand I personally feel that some mysteries are better off left alone.  Some questions cannot be answered and theories are just that, theories.We all have our own beliefs and theories and who's to say we are wrong or right?  It is what we are comfortable believing, our own personal comfort zone.   I have enjoyed reading all of these posts I am becoming very educated even though I don't understand most of what spook is saying, one again, the spice of life thing.  I guess my wiring is a little mismatched.  And Annie, Thank you for caring as much as you do,  the world could stand to use a whole lot more Annies.  I have had several posts where I have spilled my guts out and they have been deleted as soon as they are posted   Go figure.  Anyway, my point is this, I have never felt more comfortable or more at ease talking to people such as all of you, You, all of you are truly what makes the world go round   Love you all cindi

[spook]

I do not even have a drug addiction problem but you make me feel good all the same.
I think this forum is confirming what I suspected and that is that people who like Opioids are generally very kind emotional sensitive people.

[HedHurtz]

Hi, I'm new here and I've been reading posts that have "peaked" my interest(so to speak). I take Fioricet for migraines, I get 100 a mos. from one doc and sometimes I get more from outside sources. I take about 10 a day until I run out, then I feel like HELL until my next Doc's visit (unless I can get more). What takes the edge off of Butalbital addiction? I find myslf drinking. Can anyone give me advice? I tried to wean off and switch to other migraine meds, but NOTHING else works. I have tried everything from Imitrex injections to Zomig.......A to Z of sorts.
Thanks

[spook]

Basically you are addicted to a Barbiturate,so any other barbiturate will "take the edge" off the withdrawal symptoms and more!,Alcohol is cross tolerant to Barbiturates so they will attenuate the Withdrawals,Of course you know not to mix the two in large doses if you do ,you die.the end.(Jimi Hendrix style)
A strong Benzodiazepine will also suffice,I recommend Klonopin.
You may of had no idea what you where addicted to,this is a serious drug,and you will have to think about what you are doing.
First and most important Barbiturate detox should be done In hospital from large doses such as you are taking,lest you get more than a head ache,but if you insist on messing around and continuing to use/abuse,best to just use alcohol inbetween scripts,but never combine it with your medication.
I am in Australia so do not have a list of brand name Barbs avail in USA,besides they are hard to get anywhere,you may have to settle for valium,Xanax,mogadon,etc, you know Benzodiazepine Sedative hypnotics(insomnia),`antianxiety` agents,ask your Doctor/s for some sleeping pills or something for Anxiety.
Because of your enormous tolerance you will end up with a Benzo Habit as well,in fact you are in deep ****,take care.

[HedHurtz]

Well thanks for the advice, I guess?
I am a Chronic Headache sufferer and Yes, I know that I'm in deep ****. I don't drink when I have my meds. I actually do have a Xanax script, which once again, I only use when I'm out of meds. This really sucks! I have been suffering for 17 yrs with this and I guess basically, "I'm ******".....
Maybe I should just end it all!

[HedHurtz]

PS: Doctors never tell you about addiction as long as they solve the problem of the day!

[cindi]

Hi, did you ever think about see an addiction specialist, c onsider a professional detox clinic?  As spook mentioned barb withdrawal is dangerous so maybe consider the safest method. And talking about ending it all?  Why would yo do that when there is help available..it is a matter of humbling yourself and asking for that 4 letter word  "HELP". Hope this helps a bit   good luck, take care   cindi

[spook]

Sorry for being so Factual and unemotional,please keep posting if you are not ready to DETOX under professional supervision as an inpatient,it helps talking about these things,It is difficult to stop the combination of drugs you are taking because Headache is also a withdrawal symptom,so you must feel trapped and in terrible pain,make sure you do not to your doctor/s about your excessive use(they will cut off your supply),as you are taking dosages that will not alleviate anything more than the Withdrawal symptom headaches you are getting.They are combining with the actual migraine and thus the terrible pain,Do you ever take your medication for pleasure,are you abusing it?.

[HedHurtz]

I know the harsh realities of my addiction, unfortunately knowing them is NOT the issue for me. I started taking the Fioricet about 6 years ago (or so) after I was finally diagnosed with Chronic Headache Syndrome. I have seen at least 15 docs and have taken for headaches:
Imitrex (injections, nasal & tabs),Cafergot,Toradol,Midrin,Tyl #3,Darvocet,Zomig,Maxalt,Fiorinal w/cod.
I'm sure there's more.....
After an allergic reaction to codeine, I tried Fioricet.  It worked! By then, I was IN HEAVEN....A MED THAT WORKED! If he would have told me to eat sh#t on a stick, I would have. This doctor that has been scripting me this is one of the best Neurologist/Neurosurgeons in the WORLD. Why wouldn't I trust him. Now I have built up a tolerence!
Here's the deal, I went to see him today and I asked him if there is anything else that I could take for breakthrough headaches, so I wouldn't have to take "so many" fioricet (no, I didn't tell him I take 10 a day)BUT, I did tell him I think I take too many! He told me that 5 or 6 a day is fine, because it's working for me! So, of course, I think "what's 4 more"! I'm so confused. I'm glad I can get this off my chest FINALLY!
THANK YOU

[cindi]

I do feel for you, I had suffered from severe headaches a long time ago.  I guess I just "outgrew" them.. If your Dr. does not have a problem with you taking 5 or 6 Fioricets a day and you are comfortable with it did you ever think of gradually tapering down to 5 0r 6 a day?   This is better than the alternative which is cold turkey unsafely.  Are you able to taper them?  Are you willing to taper them?  You have to make the committment to do it though.  Is the medicine really helping your headaches? Like spook said, headaches and withdrawal go hand in hand.  Maybe it's re-evaluation time.  Just some food for thought.  But, I do know what you are going through.  Most of us in this forum have been there. It's a hard thing.   Good Luck    Cindi

[spook]

The tolerance is something you can get rid off,but heres the price-`more headaches`,you tried life without drugs,you tried all the drugs and now you have found one that,well used to work sort off,for a while anyway,I will give you the benefit of the any possible doubt and conclude you only used enough to stop the headaches and no more.So one may conclude that you have had all this world can offer you as far as its current medicinal technology goes,and that was temporary relief followed by an exacerbation of initial problem.Now your SPECIALIST would have forseen this,well I would have and I would have told you the facts about the situation you would eventually have to deal with,now given that you would have eaten ****(sorry I left the # out,whoops) on a stick to get pain relief,I think we have already answered that question before even asking it,yes you would have taken the drug knowing the consequences.
Now is the time to find out,what apart from the Barbiturate,Benzodiazepine withdrawals is the reason for the Headaches and this is where our science has failed us miserably,basically most of our drugs relieve the symptoms of our illness`s and do not cure the underlying cause,this is the harsh reality that keeps us humans striving for a better way to deal with what is basically in your case a congenital genetic trait,I presume your Specialist has not found the cause and or cannot fix it?,so far all is fair in love and war,can you see another Neurologist and get the latest most up to date brain imaging tests done and locate the lesion/s and undergo Neurosurgery?while trying your hardest to spiral backward from your drug dependence.or are /is the source/s of your headaches a COMPLETE mystery?.Now you get back on you feet and keep trying,that is all one can do in life,please do not give up,YET,give the medical profession and yourself another chance.

[jmold3]

I would suggest and recommend speaking to someone on this forum:

http://www.addictionsearch.com/forums

[BrandonW]

Question from Dee: "well the dr that was giving me ultramUltram
Ultram er stopped giving them, my question is, is it possible that even though i'm  still taking the vicodinVicodin
Vicodin tuss and norco,that i could be having withdrawls from not taking the ultramUltram
Ultram er, because i haven't felt the same since i stopped the ultramUltram
Ultram er."---> My  opinion: Seeing that Ultram/Tramadol is a synthetic "narcotic-like" pain reliever I don't believe you would be having any real physiological withdrawals or a withdrawal syndrome from the Ultram.May be psychological.In addition,the reason is you're taking (2) narcotic opioids(Vicodin & Norco) in place of or after the Ultram.I've taken all three and used many snythetics and/or strong narcotics for chronic pain relief.The only comfort to withdrawal is "time" away from the dependency or addiction Perhaps some tranquilizers to help,but,of  course, there's the potencial for addiction to benzondiazepines also,Sincerely  Brandon.