Vicodin, Dramamine, § pain patches

[concerneddaugherinlaw]

My mother in law was taking 2 vicodin es along with 4 dramamine every 4 hours all day long.  The doctor has now diagnosed her with "chronic pain" and is giving her pain patches.  Will she still withdraw from the vicodin if she quits taking it?

[gamzz]

well all i can say is that my dr. has me on the duragesic patch(fentanyl) and if she is on the patch the she shouldnt go through any withdawl,  but then again im not a dr. but i didnt have any withdrawl systoms,  but i also take the patch and sometmes vics and other pills on top of it so.. good luck and feel free to post again... gamzz

[AmberHunter]

she should not go into withdrawl... hope the pain patch works well for her! she is aware of the addiction part of taking narcotics isn't she? just wondering...

amber

[suzieneedshelp]

The pain patch is a good choice for ADdicts in chronic pain..Can't abuse it as easily.  But...it is not advised to take other pills with it.  That patch btw is very potent.  Be careful.  Combining it with others meds can be fatal.  Just saw that on TV last night.
Peace to your life...
Suzie

[AmberHunter]

i read somewhere on this board that someone used to abuse the pain patch by chewing it??? i have used the fentanyl patch before and poked holes in it but never thought to chew it! lol!!! the things that we come up with! we are truly creative people, aren't we???

amber rae

[suzieneedshelp]

WEll if someone wants to eat glue...and plastic or what ever the outside is made of.... then go for it...(NOT!).  btw plastic is very carcenagenic...in fact some believe that is why the cancer rate is so high.  EVERYTHING NOW IS PLASTIC.  I do not use plastic cups, utencils or plates with my daughter.  
Peace..
Suzie

[AmberHunter]

i agree with you about plastic, i hate it, it does not break down, neither does styrofoam... i am pro-earth! earth good, plastic bad!! lol!!!

amber

[Chezz2]

Fentynl is extremely potent and quite a switch from vicodin. She shouldn't have ANY type of withdrawals. Albeit she will be quite high for the first few patches IMO.
It is also hard to taper down and get off of if that is something that may be necessary in the future. Just something to keep in mind.
I am in negotiations with my doc of changing my pain management plan, and the Duragesic patches were one of the options given. I think I am going to decline and stick with what I have been doing seeing as how potent fentynl is an I really don't want to have to taper down from something like that.

Just my 2 cents. Hope everything works out for your MIL.

Chezz

[dreamin]

Hi chezz how goes all the battles? I haven't heard from you in awhile.

Sheila

[Chezz2]

Hey Dreaming,

It has been up and down for me with the pain. I has literally begged for surgery, to no avail.
I just had a little problem with my meds and had to make a call to make it till Monday. Not of my doing for once. The wife was a little pissed, enough said.

Anyway, I have been doing great with taking my meds properly. The pain has tought me a lot. Of course I am still learning.
When I go in Monday I think I am going to make another drastic decrease in my meds which I have been doing over the last month. I am sick of the meds, as much as the pain. Ijust want to get through this though.
I guess you could say I am at a point of confusion, once again.
It will all work out, as long as I make it happen.
I hope things are going well for you.
My hiatis from the forum was well needed.
Chezz

[steve1981]

You think chewing it is bad...A guy I used to buy oxys from said he had a patch that you can make a little cut in it, squeeze until a bubble of liquid forms, suck the bubble up in a needle and then shoot it!  It's sad but anyone can fall deep enough into addiction and do things they would never imagine themselves...

[peaz]

Some of you have already read my post from this morning where I stated that my AA sponsor wanted to have a talk w/ me before our mtg.Well, I'll be GODDAMNED if she didn't accuse me of DRINKING...........Let me start at the beginning: I go over to her car, and I see she's got a book in her grubby little hands called" Sober but  STUCK". (**** me gently---I AIN'T going' THERE!!!! ) So I  said," Hey!! GOOD book!!" (never saw it before in my life.....)  She asked, looking disappointed," Oh--You ALREADY read it??!!"  I said, "Oh, yeah--a LONG time ago--a friend of mine gave it to me.  It really hit home."  (HAHAHAAH  AM I good or WHAT???) SO I said, "So, is somebody sick, or what?  What couldn't  you talk to me about over the phone?"  She got out of the car and said, in one sentence:"  You know you can't drink don't you have you been out drinking again?" My mouth fell open ( I'm sure of it) and I said" Jesus Christ!!  Why do you think THAT ?? NO, I have NOT been drinking AT ALL". Then she back-tracked and said, "Well I didn't THINK you had, but I wasn't SURE". I said," NOOOO. You assumed I HAD and that's why you accused me!!"  I reminded her that I have random drug testing for three years, and had I dropped dirty, everyone in three counties would have been notified..."  She said. again, about 5 times:  " I didn't think you drank but I wondered if you had...."  ****.  She was trying to laugh it off, and I kept swinging the conversation back around.  She said she thought that because I hadn't been saying," Hi, I'm Diane and I'm an alcoholic" that I had "gone back out...... There was NO way I was going to explain my entire recovery philosophy, standing there in the parking lot, nor could I "give myself away", because I NEED her to sign my forms that get sent in to the Health Professional's watchdog so I don't get turned in to the Board of Pharmacy.  So I have to keep the charade GOING, ya see........ So I made up some song and dance about this old guy who comes to meetings who HATES druggies, and I was trying to **** him off...Which is TRUE, and my sponsor hates him, too, and thinks his narrowmindedness is inappropriate, so she could appreciate my impertinence....HAHAH  we had a good laugh over that. But she said that I have done it more than once, when this jerk-off wasn't there, so.....I wanted to blurt out," I see NO value in flogging myself w/ nasty labels  twenty times during every ******* meeting!!!" But again, dear reader, I COULDN'T rat myself out......  We ended up going to the meeting, I talked a little to appease her, and when I left, I made a mental note to find another sponsor---one who has a brain in her head.  I was so PISSED that she just JUMPED to such a DRASTIC (not to mention ILLOGICAL) conclusion based on such STUPID evidence..........DAMN!!! Thanks for the vote of confidence... But, in wanting me to read that book, (plus my recent drunken episodes) all point to the fact that she DOESN'T think my program is "what it should be" (ie: Exactly like HERS) and so she was going to get me on the right path.  Yo wench!! Don't let the door hit your ass on your way out.........It's been REAL>>>>>>>>  Sorry to be so cranky, but I am AGHAST and INSULTED  because it just wasn't warranted.....Or at the very LEAST, she could have been far less accusatory.    Am I wrong here?  Peazy

[hippy]

hi peazy,
im sorry to here about you problem with your sponser.
i think you know i have been in 12 program s since i was 16,
now im 43, in the begining years there was onlty 7 na meetins in the phila area, so we had to go to both.
since i was 24 i only go to na, because i found myself lying to fit  in in aa. i have run into a lot of judgemental people in the programs,  we need people to support us , not insult us and hurt our feelings.
being trusted by our sponser is a big thing, along with the trust of others in the program , including our home group.
12 step program are not a place we go to unless we have found ourselves  at the end of the road of addiction.
i must say tho, when people really get better there , they become very good people, kind and caring people.
that comes from working the steps, and learning to live a life based on the awakaning of the spirit.
we need to find a trusting sponser, who does not have  themselves
on a pedastool. one thing i have learned from some sponsers over the years was , what not to do to other people when i sponsed them.
look for the good in people, , and when it comes to sponsers
find one who is smart, knows the steps, and is good hearted.

one of the other reasons i stopped going to aa was , because
i was a drud addict and some people in aa don't have any time for addicts, they look down on addicts,
aa is more socialy acceptable. by the genarel public, you can get you job back , when you attend, but addicts going to na ,
this is not as accepted and your job is most of the time lost.

i know many addicts in aa, they never drank in there life,
they say , they find it more mature.
my experence is to go the extra mile if you are going to get
involved with a 12 step program. and make a commitment to one
fellowship or the other. going to both can be problematic.

my father has been sober in aa for 38 years, i myself am committed to na.

peace

[steve1981]

I wish I could put some encouraging words together for you, but at the moment I'm trying to get over my addiction.  My dealer just called and ask if I needed anything because he's got some really cheap.  I have about $600 in my wallet right now because I'm about to go to FL, going through some wicked WD, and any amount of OC would feel sooooo good right now... I said no.  I want to call him back so bad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  F---!

[hippy]

hey steve, hippy here
change your phone number, or do someting like stay with somebody
untill you get a few weeks under your belt.
i had to turn my cell phone off when i got clean.
i also had to hang around with some freinds who were clean.
i could never say no.
keep posting and talk to someone who is close to you,
when you find yourself in such situations, one thing is for
sure , once you get through a few situations like this
,it gets easier.
being clean is a wonderfull way to live , it is worth all the pain to  there.
peace!!!!!!!!!!!!!HIPPY
IF YOU NEED TO TALK MY EMAIL IS   ***@****

[cleo102]

I hear you about the cell phone thing for some strange reason i have not been able to find mine in almost 2 weeks.  Coincidentally being the last day I took pills.

having a really tough day today coming here and reading helps some times.  I havent been able to figure out what the heck I am going to do about the pain and taking care of my family.

I know that even though i get things done on pills that they were slowly killing me.  My kidneys feel almost normal again.

I was reading what hippe said about the na meetings I dont think i am ready yet but i dont want to loose the time i have in again I have 12 full days in and tomorrow is lucky 13,.

God Bless

Cleo101

[Chezz2]

Peaz,

All I can say on that issue "IS WHAT A ******* PAIN IN THE ASS THAT CAN BE SOMETIMES!!!"

Although we know how strong you are in your convictions, so I am sure you will work it out.

It is funny though, the bullshit you have to go through sometimes to keep you from drinking/drugs, will drive you in that direction just from the bullshit you have to deal with. Especially from the zealots, that it is their way or the wrong way.

Keep it up, you know what way is up...

Chezz

[hippy]

cograts, that is great , you are at the point
where you may want to start to exersize as much as possible.
keep posting. helping other is a great way to help ourselves.
get involved in your town, donate some time to help at a home for the eldery . donate some time at a hospital for sickly kids.
or meals on wheels ,
gettting involved in something positive is very helpfll.

the worst thing we can do is , to just sit around. in
our spare time.
one of the great things about the 12 step programs is
that there are always people looking for help to get clean.

peace!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!hippy

[hippy]

regarding the issue of pain,
as chezz said , it is the mosy difficult thing we have to deal with when we stop the pills.
chezz and others who deal with extreem pain
may have more answers for you if you share
what your pain is , im sure those who suffer with it ,
can offer there experence.
the one thing is to keep  your hope alive in that area,
there are ways to deal with it, i know from my own experence with
severe pain, just making a little headway  in that area
was a big deal, and gave me hope.
there are professionals to seek when dealing with severe
pain , tho they seem to always be hard to find,  and finding one who really cares seems to be hopelss somedays,
but try not to fall into that hole od dispair.
keep your hope alive.
i know for myself , my love for my children always has been
a source of strength and hope.

keep posting    hippy, i will keep you in my prayers .

[babyboomer]

I can tell you my experience with the durigesic patch. Several years ago I was on it for chronic pain. I had been on it for several months. I ran out and my Dr. went on vacation without telling me-so it was cold turkey.No one else would prescribe it. I live in a small town and my Doc is the main one . Anyway,about the second day I started feeling tough and by that night it was worse. Then it went to a level I never want to be at again. WITHDRAWL with a capital W!!!Every symptom there is-I had it.I ended up in the hospital for three days. Intravenous hydration,didn't eat for days, no sleep for days,restless leggs, ice cold, metal mouth, nightmares, depression,shallow breathing,ect,ect.I don't know if everyone does this- but I did.After I got home , it still took me two weeks to recover. I'D SAY , BE CARFUL.   BOOMER

[babyboomer]

I can tell you my experience with the durigesic patch. Several years ago I was on it for chronic pain. I had been on it for several months. I ran out and my Dr. went on vacation without telling me-so it was cold turkey.No one else would prescribe it. I live in a small town and my Doc is the main one . Anyway,about the second day I started feeling tough and by that night it was worse. Then it went to a level I never want to be at again. WITHDRAWL with a capital W!!!Every symptom there is-I had it.I ended up in the hospital for three days. Intravenous hydration,didn't eat for days, no sleep for days,restless leggs, ice cold, metal mouth, nightmares, depression,shallow breathing,ect,ect.I don't know if everyone does this- but I did.After I got home , it still took me two weeks to recover. I'D SAY , BE CARFUL.   BOOMER

[theGolden1]

Whoaaa Nelly ... sounds like your sponsor is on shakey ground herself. hmmm ... I seem to recall something about "taking another person's inventory" (smile)... people are just people and they all make mistakes. I hope you are ok after that experience. Not everybody gets it ...

[mystere]

I'm sorry about that experience with your sponsor--One of the good things that I did get out of AA was more tolerance and acceptance. (Although it didn't keep me clean & sober)  It did give me a sense of serenity knowing that I could not change other people--I could only change me and my reactions--I don't know your sponsor but maybe she's a little afraid of the responsibility of "signing your forms" which causes her anxiety when your not fully doing the 12 step march. For some reason some people in AA feel extremely threatened by the thought of any other type of recovery therapy! The sad part is that is exactly the type of experience that would give us addicts an excuse to go out and use. Maybe all she needs is a little reassurance--Show her this board--show her your posts to me--show her that by helping other people you are staying clean and sober-- And isn't that what AA is supposed to be about? It may very well convince her that your program is working just fine---(Thank you very much!) Take care Dear heart--you are in my thoughts and prayers--always--Mystere/AKA N.O. Lady

Anne

[peaz]

Good Morning and thanks to Hippy, Steve,Chezz, Golden, Anne, Rodewc, Amber,and anyone else I forgot to mention---Things are a little less intense today (what a difference a day makes....LOL) and I thank you all for your insights.  Hippy, perhaps NA WOULD be better for me...but it is a new, very small group that is just getting off the ground, and I'm not sure how credible it is yet. Perhaps I could be a real asset there?  Maybe it's something to check out.  I'd have to see if their mtgs mesh w/ my wacky schedule.  Steve---DAMN, MAN!! Throw your cell phone AND your money away!!!  LOL I wish I would have seen your post last night, so I could have written you some little motivational ditty.......it's times like that  when you need the fellowship of this board the VERY MOST>>>>>I hope to God you renounced the narc sirens and  kept focused on your detox and recovery. WHATEVER you decided, please keep posting and don't give up!!Chezz--you did take a board hiatus and it sounds like you're doing some med evaluation, too, like so many other pain pts here.  Good luck-I still don't know how ANYONE w/ chronic pain can be responsible in their treatment, and I salute your integrity.  Golden, My sponsor seems to "talk the talk", but I know for a fact she doesn't have a large amt of sobriety amassed......I didn't want to bluntly ask her, (too intrusive?? I'm not sure why..)but it seems to me that she had 5-6 yrs or so and then relapsed, and has maybe 3 or so now.  WHATEVER--that isn't  as crucial as her and I being on the same wave-length, really.  While I don't think she is necessarily on shaky ground, I think her tunnel vision is the hazard that is impairing our bonding.  Anne, I think what you said touched on that idea:  Her inability to respect any other type of recovery is bound to get in the way, and would naturally make her leery......(that was a really good point!) But I don't think she has even ENTERTAINED the idea that I have a different approach--she just thinks I'm "floundering" because if I ain't fully in AA, then I am NOWHERE......See what I mean?  I still think I need to get another sponsor, and I'd love to get another home group so it isn't a big ol' awkward event everytime I go to a mtg., or else I'm unlikely to go w/ any regularity.  This group fits into my schedule so well, and is MUCH closer than any other will be...****, anyway.  By the way--I re-read my post from yesterday and the language was appalling.......I am sorry to all of you.  I can express my feelings w/ out sounding like a truck driver.(Which means no offense; I am a Teamster myself..!!!)  Anyway--I am bound to run into this along the way( to WHERE???LOL) countless times so I might as well get used to it. The fact that I feel strong in my recovery is ALL that matters----do you hear me?  ALL!!!!! LOL  So I am no worse off today than I was yesterday.  In fact, perhaps I'm even MORE determined.  So thanks for doing me the favor, *****!! OOPS---Nasty Lady-------Thanks again you guys. I love y'all......Peazy

[dru123]

What is the best way to taper off Duragesic Patch. My doctor had me on 50 UG Hr. for 8 month's. I took it exactly like I was supposed to every 65-75 hrs. with no other medication, and I never abused it. This last visit, I decided to try and go down to 25 UG Hr., and that's what he prescribed against his advice. I felt a little off for the first couple of patch's, but now at the end of the month, I'm fine. The pain is a bit worse, however my "get up and go" is alot better. I have another appointment on Monday, and I would like to try and come off of the patch all together. Unfortuantely there is no lower patch than 25 UG Hr., and I'm uncertain how to taper lower. If I was to switch onto 20 or 40 mg's of Oxy, will I go through withdrawel? I was hoping to taper down the Oxy to 10mg, and than onto Hydro. as needed. Any advice??? It seems on this forumn "Duragesic" is the worst for withdrawel's. Thanks for any experience someone may offer.

[CRUELLA]

Hello Everyone!

I am new to this form. I have been reading thru a few of these questions/answers and I wish I had known about this site/help years ago.

I am in recovery now, again, with the help of Subutex. I have been fighting my addict for 10 years. I did have a six year sober time, but I fell down again on September 11, 2001. I woke up from a surgery and found out the "State of Our Nation." Not only was this hard to comprehend, but my husband was also informed he had been re-actived into the Navy, he was leaving for War. My entire world just started spinning and my new friend Morphine was there to make everything all better. HA!!

Before I started taking Subutex for my addiction to Vicoden and Soma, I found myself in a lot of trouble. I had been arrested for the first time. I got caughty forging false prescriptions. I am 36 years old and have never been in trouble with the law. I now have charges in two states. I live on the border of Idaho and Washington. I am scared out of my mind. I have 2 little girls 5 and 3 years old. I do not want to have to leave them. Any advise?

I am in my third week of taking 24mg of Subutex. And I am doing pretty good. I think we finally found the right dose. I started out with 16mg and slowly moved up from there. I still do not have the energy I had when taking the Vicoden and Soma, but I do not have any cravings. I was taking up to 75 - 10/325 Norcos and 20 - 350mg Somas every day. And no one knew I was addicted again. Not even my husband. My Dr. and Counselor have been great. They have known me for 10 years and call me on my bullshit all the time. I've gone through 4 in-house treatment centers. The first three were for my husband, he wanted me to. The last time was for me. I was ready. I had to divorce my husband of 13 years if I wanted to LIVE and stay clean. He is a Doctor and loves to party, cheat and beat me.

I would like to thank everyone for your great insite and help you've given to others. Sometimes I feel like your taking to me.

Has anyone had a good report for taking Subutex?

Take Care and God Bless! Thank you all again!

Jacquie - Cruella is the name I've given my addict. I have 2 dalmations that have helped me thru this nightmare the first time and they still continue to help today.

[CRUELLA]

I want to thank you Mystere for finding me at the bottom of the listing/threads. Giving me the information to go up to the top and post was very helpful. Thanks again! Hope all is well for you.

[mrmichael67]

As was stated, she will not have withdrawal symptoms if she goes on the patch.  She can take other pills, but dosages may need to be adjusted as I do know valium and other cns depressants could have an additive effect.  If irritation develops, you could spray the area where the patch is going with Azmacort.  That has been used successfully in the past.

[dru123]

What about going from the 25 UG Hr. Patch to 20-40mg's Oxy? Will there be withdrawel systems from the patch?

[mrmichael67]

There shouldn't be.....at least with the 40mg of oxy.  The 20mg may be a bit too low.  The equianalgesic dosage ranges from 22.5mg to 67mg of oxy per day.  That is according to the chart I use.  The patch can be detoxed from as easy as anything else.  One must change to another opioid such as oxy and then taper from there.  The key is to start it at a dose that is high enough.  You just can't go from 75 to 50 to 25 and then off.  As you can see, even the 25ug/hr patch is equal to a pretty decent dose of oxycodone.  I wouldn't suggest anyone stop from taking almost 70mg a day of oxy abruptly.

[pammy0690]

OMG I can't believe your sponsor.  Give me her email so I can cut and paste all the encouraging emails and post you have wrtten to me over the past six months then she can decide who is doing what to who.  Justkidding.  I just can't help but think that she really doesn't know you at all.  She doesn't know the true Peaz otherwise she would never even think that you would drink or use or whatever.  You have your own mind and thoughts and feelings that are different from what she thinks they should be is all.  Where did she get drinking from that?  Pammy

[peaz]

You're right: she DOESN'T know me and that's partly MY fault because I don't do any Big Book (gag me) reading w/ her, step work, or even go to lunch w/ her, and she would LOVE it if I did.  But, unlike her, I have a family and I work and I have all kinds of recovery therapy and my plate is FULL. I don't have time to sit and BS after meetings everyday....But let's say I DID have time: I STILL couldn't "let" her know me because she would be so judgmental about my neglect in conforming w/ AA and ONLY AA, that we would only be arguing instead of forming a friendship.
    All that aside; she COULD have said," I am nervous about your sobriety for a couple reasons. Can we talk about my concerns?"  Instead, she lambasted me and I swear to God--- it could have been VERY detrimental to a person in recovery!! DAMN, woman!!  I am still debating whether-or-not- I will even " go through those doors" (another favorite slogan..LOL) again...
   Thanks for the posting compliments. At times I get a little off the wall, but there is usually a bit of valid info in there SOMEWHERE.....!!  You're a Doll, Pammie, and thanks for being my friend. Love, Peazy

[rodewc]

Play the game. What she, the nutcase Sponser(sp?) wants is seconds from your life, but in the long run millions of years of peace will result (for you).

I have mentioned here before that I claimed Alcoholism, went to a 2 week rehab (now that's a frickin joke.. or a book) and made a phony, but successful attempt at A/A group, A/A meetings and A/A dogma.

I passed the "jumprope," and now am free to be me. As my mom said (Bless her): "You can do Anything for a year." I don;t think she was referring to recovery, but the shoe fit so I wore it, and it paid.

I would ask her (Little Ms Perfect Sponser) for her frickin little book again (ask her if she minded if you Highlighted in it), then keep it a week or so, highlight random BS, buy her a Godiva (one piece: be cheap) as a thank you.

Tell her you had forgotten the power of that written word. And, remember, 'if you fake it you make it.'

G/L
rwc~

[pammy0690]

Peaz I love you too and I am proud to have you as my friend.  It upsets me when folks mess with ya that is why I run to the defensive.  

RWC fake it and you will make it.  So many times that has gotten me through a day.  Where I was able to power through all most anything if I just talked myself into it.  Thanks for reminding me.  Pammy

[peaz]

Oh, HELL YEAH!!! I was doin' a pretty darn fancy two-step to the 12-Step Boogie, fakin' out the BEST of 'em....But THIS particular episode got my dander up and I forgot my place in the  cadence of things......  But, I agree w/ you---I CAN DO THIS....I've only got a year and 1/2 left and then I'm home free.   So I will plaster that smile on my faceand say,  "Yes, maam "and "No, Siree, Bob" and spout off whatever it is they want to hear from me.
   Wanna hear something IRONIC??  At my home group they just began a new "Introduction Format" so the  druggies would feel welcome and the AA Bullies wouldn't know which ones to pick on.  It's a simple statement that says, "Hi, I'm Jack Mehoff (I couldn't resist---sorry)  and it is my desire to not drink or use today." So that includes everyone but is a little more VAGUE than the other terse statement that has been used for so long.  So I DON'T have to  chastise myself for being an ALKIE or a DRUGGIE---just say "Hey--I hope I stay clean today." And I have to problem w/ that.  So, everything worked out.  
  The book highlighting is a FAB idea---w/ lots of notes in the margins, and perhaps a tiny sample bottle of lotion to go w/ the scrawny piece of chocolate....LOLO  We are terrible....!!  LOVE IT!!!!!! Peazy

[rodewc]

Peaz, Book Luvahs, All~

I got this link (posted below, a link to the Frey book) from DA.com which is where many posters seem, imo, to bash anyone not part of "the club." Currently, they are bashing a "handle" named "Motz" who is quite (brutally) honest, but honest in a "fair/nice way, if u can follow.

And BTW, he seems NOT to be an A/A convert. OOOO! Is it is almost shameful? Seriously, what's shameful is the bashing he is receiving. I do follow the histrionics there, both on their support board, and on their DA.com general board. He is getting grief both places. Poor baby. He has posted here, and I must say is one (a STRONG one/reason) of several thousand reasons I decided to get straight, or rather try to.

I like Truth and not "steps." Besides, and most importantly, I was ready for Truth. He gave it to me, here and via e-mail. That aside, being you won't have any idea WTF I am saying, at least it is off my chest.

It's a shame the way some boards are so cliquish, while this one (board) embraces all posters with open arms (even those who wrench my heart and then disappear, like, say, LadyLamp).

OK. Enough from the "committee" (the committee being my brain, or former brain) Speaking of my lack of brain power, it was days before I realized Thomas 50 and Thomas 03 were not the same person! I was weeping because our stalwart Thomas had returned to using.

OK. Here goes (finally!): I got this link from the DA.com on their general board: "There is another way" thread"

http://www.randomhouse.com/boldtype/0403/frey/excerpt.html

I read that link, but, imHo, (love that random "H" cap. LOL. Don’t try to follow that)

Anyway, imHo, that excerpt does not touch the Frey book and further story line, but it does give the future (hopefully) reader a taste of his unusual style, as no standard paragraphs or indents. Cool, huh?

Further down, on the DA.com general board, is an interesting thread on "Marriage." I didn't respond, because I saw how they crucified Motz. I don't feel like being taken to task. This board is my safe haven.

I do wish Motz would come over here (again) where the posters, barring when one tends to get too religious, really seem to help the other.

There is less chitchat here too; though, I must admit the F crowd at DA.com has a nice thread going, sans one poster who found it necessary to slap Motz upside the head (on another support thread. If I wasn't so old and sick of catfights, I would mention her name. I think the angry lady comes here too. But I will let her show her butt there.

I wouldn’t feel so protective of a man (Motz) who I have never met, but he, like R.Stew, a poster named Sisyphus ( I guess he disappeared?), one called Tractershift (or some such, who was gonna detox here.... w/ his 5 pairs of clean jammies... on the forum rather than VA and keep us posted.. but he didn't)

Then there was Info (who left me hanging and praying), Mystere who taught me a huge lesson, Hippee and his words of constant wisdom, Mr Michael who I have grown to respect, the guy who did the Bike racing and seldom posts anymore after all the bannings. Recently Robyn Banks has inspired me, and especially, of course, Thomas 03 on whom I have a secret crush: IE admiration, oxic who is not of this world, Dancin who makes me laugh and hope she will tell me when she gets the book I mailed, and Peaz, well I think you may be my EN: Japanese for souls mate.

There's Susie. who now Doesn't need Help! (WTG, Sus!), now Steve, Amber, Pammy, and Lisabet.. What a sweetie. And Jer, who I miss.

And lemme shaddup and don't be mad like a Hatter or angry like a person if u waded thru all this BS and I didn’t mention u, 'cause u are all special, and I have major Brain Farts on Names.

Sorry about the Motz soliloquy too. He was instrumental in my recovery. I wish I had permission to post his e-mails. Just that he helped me like hell, and now that are leaving him in the ditch (at DA.com) and kicking his butt...

HEY PEAZ!! Maybe those Butt Kickers are all Yr. A/A sponsor in disguise.

Sorry if I have eaten into Bandwidth money here and rambled on about nothing. But I hate to see someone who has helped me so, both through e-mail (mine's ***@**** if anyome wants to advise me, but PLEASE.. no taking to task: I am too fragile!)

Would love to hear the Peaz story, peaz, if u feel like sharing, laughing, crying, or complaining sometime.

Judes: did u get my email(s)
?
rwc~

[rodewc]

Couldn't 4-get u, chezz.. and I am gonna log off and leave for the beach w/ Pup before I remember the myriads of other wonderful people I neglected to mention. PLEASE, i am sorry. I shuldna started w/ such an impossible task.. listing names.

That aside: There should be a law about posting here, and then Just leaving, leaving the caring readers wondering and hoping things turned out for the best.

As Always,
rwc!

[peaz]

An atlas!! You wrote a freaking ATLAS!! LOL  There were so many things to comment on it will take overnight to collect my thoughts (Not quite as swift on the uptake as the pre vicodin days...  :-)  But I did want to just say, now, that I was trated like a leper at DA.Com (General board) when I tried posting there a year ago.  I lurked forever, and finally got the nerve to post some innocuous post.....FINALLY a guy answered me, and the next post was from one of the groupie chicks that dwell there, saying,"  Numb Nuts!! (insert his name here) I thought we decided we WEREN'T going to answer!! " or something along those lines....I snickered, and posted for  maybe a few weeks longer, but rarely got any replies or even acknowlegement that I had even POSTED>>>>>I was going back and forth from there to here; eventually began posting here, and the rest is history.  What a buncha fucken SNOBS....If that's their idea of compassionate recovery, I hope I never stumble upon it....It's not like I'm some subversive who comes in, making a lot of trouble!!  Their loss------Just say NO!!  Don't go back!!  LOL  I shall return...Peazy

[Motz]

Hey, kids, and All, esp. Rode w/ yr unnecessary ( hopefully) anger defenses, u  r welcome. There's anger,.. We all have  

Glad I was able tp help y',Rode. I wondered what you thought of my e-mails. Heh.Mine is.. dare I say?? I am taking a SERIOUS  beating for??? at DA.COM!!!

Regaedless, 'tho my feelings, too, can be fragile; my e-mail is ***@****

I read a GREAT many abuse boards. Complimetshere. The docs are beyond reproach. Best to all (and me!! Hell! Gotta be a little selfish! to ALL in their recoveries.

As always
Otz

NO EDIT HERE.. GASP!!! lol

[rodewc]

LOL.. the dawg w/ the pedigree name(s): Don't Do That Dawg.. are in from the *****, err *****.. Dumbass I waited 'til the frickin breeze died before takin Pup to terrorize the tourons.

So, the no-see-ums: IE.. gnats.. were out in force.

I am thrilled as fricken heck that motz still follows this board. If he helped save me, he can save anyone.

I haven't the balls Iliterrally or figuratively) to post on the exclusive DA.Com

If ya aint a F user, then yr "toast' as far as I can read.

Motz is Da Man tho. He may be Da Man, but they sure as heck post the Thomas Receipt there. (and that'z yet anudder Man)

Anyhoo, My En, my Peaz, more power to u.. make sure u buy one of those Stinkin', major stink Bomb, pefumes/colognes along w/ the single Godiva (DON'T, pls, buy a "G" Godiva. Those are the best) Toffeee and choc... Mmmmm) as yr TY to the jerkwad Sponsor.

BTW, it's ALLLLLL in the way u tie the ribbon (on a gift). That much I learned from Mama. Bless Her.

I can give u tips e-mail if u have never tied a homemade ribbon before.. one can make the shabbiest (our goal, yes?) of gifts look like a bezillion dollars.

If you and I think DA.com is a POS, maybe we shld play some mind games there.

OOps sry, tht's my pre-Vike Days bellowing.

Seya, En

ROFL

rwc~

[peaz]

I have seen you  refer to your pup previously.....did you say it was a pit bull?  I had a fawn colored one named "Jake". What a HELLUVAN animal...I loved him to bits.  We should swap dog stories but not take up room here.  I will reply to your long post above by email as I think that's where personal **** belongs.  So, man the inbox...Peazy

[lisabet]

rodewc - like you, I read the DA forum but never post; I remember the bashing Motz took. I've noticed a post or 2 from him here. If he helped you in your recovery, he's definitely someone special. Have fun with the pup (or) D.D.T.D.!!!...SMILE...

Hi peazy - glad to see ya posting a lot lately. Sounds like you're doing well.  Love ya, peaz; you too, rodewc.  Lisabet

[peaz]

My mood swings take me hither and yon.....I''m either posting like a banshee or a close-mouthed Sphinx....LOL  Never a dull moment at our house...."Keep 'em guessing"; that's my motto!!  Anyway, I have recovered from my sponsor train wreck and all is well. Hope you can say the same, sweets.  Love ya--peazy

[dancinginthedark]

Did I receive your email? Oh, you meant those that threw me into dry heaves of disgust?  Yes.  I'm trying to behave like an adult here & NOT respond to a pissing match,but hey, unlike you, I'm of the human persuasion.  I can tell you one oof your missives, sent direct to me, would ASSUREDLY get you banned from here. And worse.  DA does not ban ppl making me wonder why you find that site so loathesome that you'd actually frequent though refuse, according to your em, to participate.

I respect your opinion & sky high regard for Motz. But I wonder:  Why did you select Kat49 to thow to the lions, quite in public, while ignoring all the others who expressed your sentiments in a gentler tone, yet the same ilk as the very same time?  I can't speak for you but my deduction is this is one man who can stand up for himself.  

As pertains your initial attack, blackmail & saying I had a cult following.  Oh, yeah?  

Nonetheless, questions remain:  
*Where is your esteem/compassion in lieu of dealing with addicts?Could my compassion & understanding have had anything to do with it?
*What ever made you such an angry, vindictive *****?
And in lieu of the fact that I'm "cult leader" of a DA following, what are you leader of, after your freight train headed to Anger, U.S.A.  ??

Rodey, since I met you, I've thought nothing less than the world of you.  That is until you launched forth not once, but twice,  reams of vituperative, unsubstantiated assaults.  And you even tossed cowardice & blackmail into the mix.

I'm not shy about sharing my convictions & I canot & will not hide behind the veil of fear.  Instead, I believe when such occasions call for it, share one & share all.

And of course I'll mail back your book the moment I receive it.

Dancing in the Light

[rodewc]

I dont save books. Keep it, give it away, or trash it. It costs abut 5-6 dollars to mail. I have enough stuff lying around here.

I asked you to have yr bud (you named her, not I) tone it down. I would have asked the  same of others who bashed Motz on the board, but you knew this one poster. I didn't. I didn't know her, or any of the others in the "club."

Nor do I care to. She was aggressively rude to Motz w/o cause. Unless I missed it? To repeat: your friend was the only one, you and your friend, w/ whom I was acquaintated. Thus, the private plea to you. I see where your loyalties lie. Askew.

Maybe she has helped you as Motz helped me. I did not, however, attack your friend on an open forum; nor will I flame anyone.

The Frey book is moot. Keep it, trash it or give it away (as said). You wont see me posting on DA.com though. I have watched there long enough as the testimonilas here at medhelp.org can attribute: newcomers are not welcome. I lost count of how many said that here on This forum.

Shame.. but glad one group found an F thread. The F thread your friend chose to leave and lambast him (motz)

rwc~

[rodewc]

Dancin~

Thre is not ONE thing I have said in this e-mail yo you, that I have not said on the board. Here it is:

COPY:

hey Jude

I too follow both boards and am absolutely appalled at
how your bud, KAT49 (i think is her nick) attacked
Motz

I too am of the ilk that I dont get into cat/dog
fights, but she is totally outta line and i must admit
I am sorely tempted to do as we women say and "*****
slap her"

Motz posts on a # of addiction boards I frequent and
his honesty has helped me recover more than once.

One time, in my humboe opinion, you were sick
(hallucintaing even w/ a fever) and crawled Motz's ass
about Fiornal, when in fact Motz was on another
thread, and oxycontin thread

Later, you apoligized, and seemingly you and Motz saw
eye to eye, as you should. However, in your initial
"feverish out of line (due to fever) post" yr frien
CHEERED u on, in a most unlady like manner.

I think it would behoove you, in my MOST humble
opinion, to tell that "cult" following you have at
drugabuse.com that their responses to someone who
simoke has an opinion, like all assholes, that their
visious attacks were out of line.

Had I been motz, I woulda done more than he in his
response to your friend.

Like I said, I havent (yet) posted on drugabuse.com
but KAT needs a dressing dowm Firstly, she is wrong.
Secondly, she hasnt read Motz's words w/ an open mind.
He simply wants what is best for a kid (casey) who
could possibly be his own kids' ages.. THAT and for
someone not to waste money w/ online pharmacies. If
that is a crime, then perhaps I do not respect your
opinions as much as I thought.

I will look for your response to KAT and her nonsense
and drugabuse. I would post there myself, but I don't
think my words would mean ****. What you say, however,
she worships.

Motz has been posting on the boards I frequent for at
least a year, including my fave- medhelp.org.

I look forward to reading your words at drugabuse. I
feel sorry for a man who loves his family so.. an
cares for others to be taken to task like that. It
shouldnt bother me, but it does.

It is the second unwarranted stab KAT has taken at
him.. once after your motza ball post and one today.

Hope u get the  boook soon.. I am headed to the beach
(dont tell KAT.. she will say I am bragging about
being RICH)

ROFL


END PASTE

rwc~

(PS These "prior" comments are al on suport board at DA.com)

[dancinginthedark]

Yes, well that was quite the "selective" paste.  Bravo.  Problem is, what you left out is more important than that which you left in.  From this missive, you forgot a wee rule or three of journalism.  Remember context, consistency and be acutely aware of cliches.

First off to all:  After today, I will no longer carry on this on-line bickering any further.  It is entirely unfair to all you terrific folks who are fighting so hard for your sobriety.  We need focus, not bickering.  Rodey can "***** slap" me over the fiber-optic lines if she needs to.  

I too am of the ilk that I dont get into cat/dog
fights, but she is totally outta line and i must admit
I am sorely tempted to do as we women say and "*****
slap her"

Then do it!  She is oft at medhelp, thus easy to find & she LIKES people who stand up for themselves.  Meaning, she'd think the world of you.

Motz posts on a # of addiction boards I frequent and
his honesty has helped me recover more than once.

But does that mean his way is the only way?  The fact that it's worked for you & him (& countless others) proves the approach works. I like him very much but his "pushy" approach does not work for many ppl.  They need to be coddled & urged along.  As in, Hey, both camps are going to flunk out but as we say @ MH @ DA so often, you need to find what works for you.  Much as I like & respect Motz, I can tell you that in my feistiest days, that "just quit" approach would have sent me sprinting to the nearest pharmaceutical factory for a morphine drip, M-16 in tow!

I think it would behoove you,
To obey you, between shining your shoes, mowing the line, preparing all the food and taking care of your kids? Thanks!

in my MOST humble opinion,
Oh, pullleeeeez

to tell that "cult" following you have at drugabuse.com
WHERE?  F grp I assume?  
10 visits to opiate site.  
The fiorinal grp has been very tight since Sept.  There is no one else at DA in my cult...sorry! Unless they're in & I've never heard of them.  I'm trying to help Casey & Mossy in my own way & of course I like Motz - very much.

That their responses to someone who
simoke has an opinion, like all assholes, that their
visious attacks were out of line.
I don't know what a simoke is...?  I did get the context but you needn't write about yoursrlf in such a fashion!

Had I been motz, I woulda done more than he in his
response to your friend.
But Motz has class.  He knows how to rise above such PALTRY matters.
Like I said, I havent (yet) posted on drugabuse.com.  
Waiting for the next millennium? Why not?  Espec. now?

but KAT needs a dressing dowm
Says who?
(Firstly, she is wrong.
About what specifically?
Secondly, she hasnt read Motz's words w/ an open mind.
And you know this definitively based on what?
He simply wants what is best for a kid (casey) who
could possibly be his own kids' ages..
He does & so do I.  Go check my posts to her & Mossy.  THAT and for someone not to waste money w/ online pharmacies.
That's just fine but maybe for a "gentler" approach followed by loads of ppl, he should check JR's posts on this very matter twds the end of our most recent thread.

If that is a crime, then perhaps I do not respect your
opinions as much as I thought.
Wanting the best for a kid who could be his kid?  Me too.  Urging ppl to never use on-line pharmacies.  Me too only I'm more vehement than JR.  Such being the criteria, it is indeed perhaps a blessing you don't respect my opinions.

I will look for your response to KAT and her nonsense
and drugabuse.
Is that a threat?
I would post there myself, but I don't
think my words would mean ****. What you say, however,
she worships.

Motz has been posting on the boards I frequent for at
least a year, including my fave- medhelp.org.
Fair enough.  But I suspect even Motz would say you needn't fight his battles for him.  Maybe I'm wrong!  But goodness, it's one thing to stand up for someone and quite another to do so with utter, complete and blind vehemence.

I look forward to reading your words at drugabuse.
Don't you mean *your* words?  Assuming I was tyhe compliant sort.

I feel sorry for a man who loves his family so.. an
cares for others to be taken to task like that. It
shouldnt bother me, but it does.

All earned based on your pity, his love of family and that he shouldn't be taken to task for that.  Wow.  Based on that criteria, you are going to be one busy lassie at medhelp alone.  

Why feel sorry for a man who loves his family so?
Who feels sorry for him???  Not me.  He sounds very happy but do you think he's the only caring individual who's been taken to task?  
I'm not saying don't care or try to help but frankly, this contretemps has upset you far more than he.
Dr. Sigmeund would suggest you examine the reasons why.

Dancin'

[rodewc]

This isn’t a pissin (scuse the vernacular) match. There is not ONE thing I left out of the e-mail from me to you, which by the way, you made reference to, HERE, so I cleared it up for ALL to see.

Yup. Motz can sure take up for himself. He’s proven it there, and here, He doesn’t cat fight. (Or dog fight for that manner) I do. Motz was asked for his opinion, on a NARCOTICS thread. He gave it. Kat pranced over and squished him down. It is obvious from even the most casual reader, that she idolizes u. I too admire the way you sting words together, except the one eve, you claimed to have a fever, left the F thread and proceeded to dress Motz down.

I will say what others here have said: DA.COM is a clique and Lord, they love you. You apologized to Motz, and rightly so (the night u were supposedly feverish and knew now what u said or where u were.

We are all addicts here, Judy. Takes a lot to fool one, and I would be less than honest if I say that the line u fed Motz on that apology was less than sincere/or true. It is my suspicion you were high as a kite, but then I, like many, have been there, done that.

Motz has quite the compelling story. I asked him if I could paste it here. He said no, but that he has a few he has felt to take under his wing: me, for example. Some work; some don't.

Regardless, when you had the supposed "fever" and made some "off the wall" comment to Motz. (See the support thread on DA.com) Who reacted? What I call "you're following/the infatuated: Kat"

I will not be less than honest. Again, u fired off a missive, that o would be "banned here for that e-mil" (which I posted) That ban would be for what? Asking you to be nice, asking your followers to be nice?

I, like you am a recovering addict, having wrestled this demon 4 times now. I am sick of lies. There is Absolutely NOTHING I left out of the e-mail EXCEPT your address and phone number. NOTHING.

Is that what you would like published?

I have been as kind as I know but you are pushing an envelope that is better left sealed. Your g/f "KAT" needs to apologize to Motz. He won't demand it, and as I said, I simply asked you to call "her" as others here have aptly pointed out I didn't know the other "ass-kickers," for lack of a better word. I did know you and (wrongly) hoped you would speak to her about t cheering on a catfight (between almost 50 year old ladies if I remember correctly) Motz was taking grief. On BOTH. boards. the general AND the support board (where the F crowd gathers)

Yea, I am protective of someone who finally helped me see the light of WHY PILLS SUCK.

I feel the same of Peaz, among others.

You run hot and cold, and "lying on my name". IE: saying I had Left Something Out of That E-mail Is Erroneous"

Lay off, Judy, please. For the sake of all of us. You are gifted with words, but your words are not veracity.

PEAZ: Sorry I addressed this too you. Inherently, I have felt prescient. The DDTD (mutt) "could" be Pitt! Of course the vet said. U want her to be Black French Poodle, she's a black French Poodle. What Doll (the 80 yr. old Vet)

Sorry, I went off on this diatribe, "Dancing'" (All). But though Motz may lie down and take it like a mad  dog, I take it like a spitfire cat. Don't lie on me, regardless of whether you have a fever  (by you, Dancin’) or not. (See that soliloquy at DA.COM.. Support Thread) Additionally, I think the folks here might enjoy Kat’s views on recreational drug use. Thank God, for Brutal People, like Motz, who helped me put down the dope. A/A isn’t the way for all, Christianity isn’t the way for all, brutal honesty isn’t the way for all; but one darn thing’s for sure- and that’s slamming another’s opinion by adding insult to injury, and further lying on one’s name SURELY isn’t the way for any of us. (IE: word choices such as “Pissing Matches” or changing what Motz said was a precious family name (to him) into a “joke” (by you, Dancin’). Again see DA.com Support thread.. All, I can say is that, your words, and seemingly intent, were mean spirited, evil to the core)

BtW, if you still chose to e-mail Peaz, I am not in the nabit (nor will I publish such), but then you haven’ threatened or lied.

And BTW, Motz, tho u say you still come here, apologies for speaking my mind for you. U are too much like my hubby, and would have let her lies stand)


That side, I am sure I have used the bandwidth money here, as my allotment plus, and aplogies. I will take a week sabbatical. Know that I root each positive oeron on, and if you have encouraging words, I sill e-mail. Mine’s ***@****

If you feel, I am jerk, I would appreciate you let me have this week sabbatical to calm myself and regroup.

Love and Respect,
rwc~

[lisabet]

Hi rode - for what it's worth, I DO not think you're a jerk; if you feel you need to take a break from the forum, I certainly understand; I do it myself from time to time.  I like you, and generally get a kick from your posts. As for Judes comments, it should be contained in personal e-mail between her and yourself. It has no place in this forum. The one thing I like about this forum is there's not a lot a b-s - just a lot of interaction between addicts, mainly IMHO, sincere and heartfelt feelings and comments. Hope you continue in your road to sobriety.  I love you bunches and bunches and bunches, Lisabet

[rodewc]

love u too, lisabet. Pls, pls , pls read the "support" thread AND and the "general" thread thoroughly at DA.Abuse.com as soon as you have some free time (if there is such a thing)

My sabbatical one week from this board) starts at 5 PM today

Until then, 6 readers HAVE read the suppost and general boards at drugabuse.com and sent me private e-mails which I will NOT post, even those w/ whom I agree.

I can promise u, that w/o yr permission, i would NEVER post private e-mail words to you, but I am interested as a "casual reader" at DA.com, what you think of the words that trnbspired between the key players (im ny opinion vehemently against Motz)

DA. com SupportBoard: Casey, Dancing, Motz, Kat, In the Same Boat (pls read, amomg others)

DA. com General Board: Mossy, Motz, Furio, Elizabeth Reed, Irony Brats, Ruthie, Bruce and a few others.. names escape me (please read, among others))

I have a huge event to prepare for today andthis week anyway so the sabbatical will be productive there also, but as one addict, and possible friend to another, Liz, it would interest me as to how a "third party" (as yourself) views the DA.COM saga, a what a sage ot resulted in..

I have had Just this AM 7 replies in my (***@****) email: ***@**** (None of whom I had ever had an e0mail before)

None from Motz, as expected.. I will not reprt to him, you, or others, the email contents. I am interested for one reason (to be honest, 2 reasons: 1. I hope I am right. The attacks were vicious and need apologies. 2. If wrong, I hope to learn and move ahead and apologize myself).

I do respect you and all opinions, regardless of what u say/think/write to me on e-mail after reading these DA.com words (maybe over an 8 day period is when they were initially written?)

Thak you for your time. Apologies for this question(s), but anger, at least for me has always been a setback. I need to learn when it is warranted, when it is not.

I will post  in a weekish. You can hold me TRUE to my work. This will nit be brought up gain here.

Hoping to hear from many soon, I need to know. Is it left over anger, or is it genuine?? I need to rid myself of the former, unwarranted anger.

Best to all this week.

rwc~

[afszd]

Have been on durigesic about a month ans am not getting the same relief i did from morphine.My brother just hanged him self and my body is freaking out I (boo hoo hoo) do not want to travel across country and deal with this without being on something I know will work i don't want to be adjutated etc.what should i do will they at least give me vicodin and let me stop the patch until this is over.
Danke

[Kackle]

I have been prescribed pratically every narcotic in the US, from Propoxyphene (Darvon) to Methadone (Methadose). The Fentany patch is extremely dangerous if the gel/liquid is used orally, and will absorb through the mucous membranes in the mouth, just like chewing tobbaco does. This can result in serious or fatal consequences. I have done this before for fun, and it does create and absolutely wonderful high and I won't lie, BUT, I AM EXTREMELY TOLERANT TO OPIOIDS! Fentanyl is approx. 40x more potent than Diamorphine (Heroin), and 80-100x more potent than Morphine (Kadian)! I have sucked on used patches that still contain enough Fentanyl to cause anagesia and euphoria. I do this because I take Methadone, Hydromorphone, and other potent opioids, therefore, I have less of a dangerous effect when using Fentanyl patches orally. I RECCOMMEND YOU DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS, ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE NOT TAKING OPIOIDS OR INTOLERANT TO POWERFUL OPIOIDS! IF YOU PUT THE PATCH IN YOUR MOUTH, TAKE IT OUT IF YOU START TO FEEL LIKE YOU CAN'T HANDLE IT. EVEN PUTTING THE PATCH IN FOR A MINUTE AND TAKING IT OUT, YOU WILL SOON FEEL THE EFFECTS! MOST OF ALL, NEVER INJECT THE GEL! USING FENTANYL PATCHES ORALLY WILL RESULT IN MUCH MORE POSSIBLE ADDICTION THEN WHEN WEARING IT ON THE SKIN LIKE REQUIRED. IF YOU ATTEMPT THIS, TOLERANT OR NOT, I RECCOMMEND NOT BEING ALONE. IF OVERDOSE IS SUSPECTED, SEEK MEDICAL ATTENTION IMMEDIATELY! THE OPIOID ANTAGONISTS (BLOCKERS) NALOXONE (NARCAN) OR NALTREXONE (DEPADE) WILL REVERSE THE OVERDOSE. SYMPTOMS OF FENTANYL OVERDOSE ARE PINPOINT PUPILS, SEVERE DIZZINESS, SEVERE DROWSINESS, TROUBLE BREATHING, CONVULSIONS, INSENSITIVITY TO A PIN *****, UNSTABLE GAIT (TROUBLE WALKING STRAIGHT), DEEP SLEEP, LOW BLOOD PRESSURE AND TEMPERATURE, SLOW OR ABNORMAL HEART RHYTHYM, FAINTING SPELLS, CONFUSION, SPEACH IMAIRMENT AND SLURRING, COMA, AND OF COURSE POSSIBLE DEATH IF NOT TAKEN CARE OF BY A DOCTOR. ALSO, TAKING ALCOHOL, OTHER OPIOID NARCOTICS (I.E. MORPHINE, DILAUDID, METHADONE), BARBITURATES (I.E. PHENOBARBITAL), BENZODIAZEPINES (I.E. VALIUM), ANTIPSYCHOTICS (I.E. HALDOL), ANTIDEPRESSANTS (I.E. PROZAC), ANTIHISTAMINES (I.E. ATARAX), MAO INHIBITORS (I.E. NARDIL), SLEEP AIDS (I.E. AMBIEN), OR ANY OTHER CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM DEPRESSANTS OR SEDATIVES/TRANQUILIZERS CAN INCREASE OPIOID OVERDOSE. ALWAYS MAKE SURE YOUR DOCTOR KNOWS WHAT OTHER MEDICATIONS YOU ARE TAKING BEFORE USING FENTANYL, EVEN OTC OR HERBAL PRODUCTS AS WELL. DO NOT TAKE WITH AN MAO INHIBITOR. MAKE SURE YOU START TAKING FENTANYL AFTER 2 WEEKS OF STOPPING AN MAO INHIBITOR! BE CAREFUL WITH FENTANYL! I'M NOT SAYING I CAN DO IT AND YOU CAN'T, I'M JUST STATING THAT YOU BE CAREFUL WITH FENTANYL. IF YOU ARE TOLERANT TO OPIOIDS, CHANCES ARE YOU CAN SUCK ON THE PACTCH OR LICK THE GEL OUT AND BE OK, DEPENDING ON THE STRENGTH  AND HOW MANY YOU PLAN TO USE. IF YOU HAVE NEVER TAKEN OPIOIDS OR ARE INTOLERENT TO OPIOIDS, CHANCES ARE HIGHER THAT YOU COULD OVERDOSE. START OUT SLOW AND SMALL IF YOU DO DECIDE TO USE IT IN THIS METHOD. THERE ARE ALSO FENTANYL LOZENGES (LOLLIPOPS) TOO. USING A LOZENGE WOULD BE SAFER THAN A PATCH IN YOUR MOUTH. I leave this information for those who use Fentanyl, properly or not. I'm am not responsible for any drug misuse from this information! BE WISE AND SMART WITH YOUR MEDS!