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Vicodin trouble
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Vicodin trouble

I am 40 year old writer and word processor.  I have used opiates for about two decades, but I stopped using any "street" ones after having a child 3 years ago.  The problem is that my dependency on vicodin is very severe.  I actually have back pain so I can obtain the es vicodin from my doctor occasionally.  But I can also purchase them black market easily, which I have been doing constantly for the last year and a half.  I started taking Vicodins to stop doing Percocets and Dilaudid.  I have used Percocet on and off since 1983.  When I had dental trouble early this year, I had access to about 200 Lorcet and Vicodin in one month.  Legitimately.  Otherwise I can purchase anything on the black market very easily.  

The problem is that my dependency builds and I become very difficult and horrible to be around when I try to space the doses.  When I take the drug at first I function fine and am able to   I usually build up to about 7 vicodin es a day and then have to stop cold turkey (2 in the daytime, about 4-5 at night).  The stop/start happens a lot, even with so-called occasional recreational "weekend use".  It is shattering me the cold turkey.  There are periods where I use narcotics about a 4-6 weeks (vicodin and lately oxycontin) then I have to stop and it is so shattering.  

Many years ago I tried NA and it doesn't work for me.  I also do not want to be put on shrink meds by a psychiatrist. What am I doing to myself medically?  Because of life circumstances I don't see myself being able to stop soon.  What is happening and what can I do?
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I can plainly see and feel your addiction to opiates, It doesn't take a rocket scientist. You want to see a shrink and be put on meds and are asking what you are doing to yor health? Think about it for a minute. Buying street drugs? Well, you get the picture I'm sure.
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Hi Bill. I have never posted on this site but I have been reading it (among other addiction sites) faithfully for about a month now. I too have an addiction to vicodin, with a legitimate reason for use. I sufferd a back injury that won't give up. Fortunately and unfortunately I don't have access to them on a regular basis. But I need and want them. I feel like the people at this site understand that even thought they don't know I exist.  The reason I am writing is to answer your medical question. I am a nurse (a blessing and curse). Vicodin es has 750mg of tylenol in it- I'm sure you know that. The maximum dosage your kidneys can handle is 4000mg in 24 hrs. I'll do the math for you, that's 5.33 pills per day granted you are taking nothing else with tylenol in it.  It is well known among health care professionals that tylenol is one of the most harmful drugs to your vital organs. Specificly your Kidneys. Have you noticed you are bloated after a day of meds?  tylenol will kill you, narcotics will constipate you and make you feel like **** when they wear off.  How ironic that narcotics are much safer alone! My advice to you-- if you wish to continue using- ask your doctor (or supplier) for lortab 10/500 (or generic). It will reduce the tylenol intake. Try spacing your doses out longer and using Ibuprofen inbetween. Although don't go overboard with this either since it damages your liver. Vioxx has worked well for me in taking the edge off- for those times you don't wish to use V.  However that med is understudied and I can't tell you the long term effects.  Quitting cold turkey rots!!  When I start getting low I lenghten the times between my doses. I wait as long as I can until I can't handle the w/d anymore then I take a dose. and again. and again. Then they are gone. The docs where I live have a major narcotic phobia, even for legitimate users. It's a "crunchy" area. Sucks for me. Xanax helps for the grumpies of w/d. I don't know how you feel about that and I don't want to start you a new habit. I use them and have no desire to abuse them. I don't even want to take them unless I am having panic attacks or feel like kicking anyone who comes near me.-- a whole other topic.  Anyway, hope I help a little. If you have more questions let me know. Happy to help. (goes for anyone reading this!)
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I like V and L tab and have just recently been RX'd 10mg with 650 apap. Was off of meds for over five weeks. My ankles have swollen so bad that they hurt. It feels like they are full of water when I walk. I have had an on going liver problem that all this apap certainly makes worse in a big hurry. I'm not sure that even 4000mgs is a safe dose for those of us with kidney and liver disease. I take one every six hours as needed for pain, but you know how that goes. Have tried all the new nsaids and nothing seems to work.

Thanks, Marty
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I need someone like you to scare me into detoxing! You sound like you know what you are talking about, please tell me what the HELL  I am doing to my poor body by eating anywhere from 2-20 percs a day, every day? I've been very blah about wanting to quit, sorta like yeah, someday, not now. But now I am really concerned about my health. Come on, I can take it. It may not be what I want to hear, but what I need to. Yes, I feel like **** when they wear off, tired and miserable, which is why I just keep eating them. Thanks for helping.
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I was really thinking codeine was going to help my pain problem and now that I've obtained it I find it works now better than Motrin, it only makes me feel spaced out or high I guess you call it. I tried three and the same result. I quit taking them.

I know there are addicts out there that would probably kill for them and I don't even want to finish the stupid things I have left unless only to kill myself if this depression continues to intensify.

I'll stay with my 8 mg's of Klonopin anyday. It's much better and doesn't give me that groggy feeling.
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i think tapering if you can do it is the best way.  and when you get down to a smallish dose, then taper very very slowly.  good advice, but i can't seem to follow it myself.  cn't get below 2 or 3 percs a day.  dman it.  i want off, but i'm a sissy when it comes to feeling dope sick.
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Marty- You are absolutely right. 4000mg is way too much for someone with kidney or liver function problems. NSAIDs burn a hole in my stomach. Have you tried vioxx? 50mg once a day took the EDGE of the pain off for me and made (maybe it was in my head) the V much less fun.  Wish I could invent something that worked. sorry.

Lynn- The minimum amount of tylenol in perc is 325mg. I can be much higher than that depending on the brand etc.  AT 325mg and 20 percs per day thats 6500mg of tylenol. Re-read what I wrote above. not good. what makes the difference in your day that causes you to take 20 as opposed to 2?

Joanne- I'm a sissy too. My average (when I have them) is 2-6 vics per day. I think one reason I am able to finally put up with the dope sick is I have no more.  My suggestions above are only what has worked for ME in the past. Everyone is different. I also have the threaght of losing my licence if I am caught obtaining drugs illegally. I worked too hard to let that happen.    

Keep trying everyone!  wish me luck too.
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Are you on antidepressants?  What kind of pain do you have?
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i got a hold of some 10 mlgrm methadone.  if i use these, say, 3 one day, 2 next day, 1 for a day or two, then 1/2 then off, will it work?
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You know, codeine doesn't work the best for me either...but compared to having NOTHING they work great. If you ever feel the need to get rid of them - let me know. I'd be more than happy to be pain free for a couple of days.

Mike
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hi everyone, it really helps to read all your post.knowing i,m not alone in this ***** of a addiction on pain meds..i have been on a rollercoaster ride for 10 long long year now.i,ve quit many times which was not to hard to do...yes right that is what i said..the hard part of it is <STAyING OFF THEM> and the depression that sets in..i go to lenths in getting them that i drive to canda now just to get the 8mgs boy talk about desperation, 600 miles each way...i think its time to get my act together and stop this once and for all. glad i found this site it really helps reading what other people are doing...well i,m planning to go cold turkey starting friday...thank you all for listening and good luck to us ALL your friend and fellow addict joe>>>>
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oh it didn,tcome out on my last post its staying off the stuff thats the hardest part...joe
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I tried Depakote first for mood and seizures. I got realy sick from the side effects. They figured tegretol would make me sick too so they put me on Neurontin and Klonopin which worked fairly well to control the seizures for the most part. Somewhere in between I tried Trazadone and felt like I was choking to death the next morning and I even deliberately only took half the dosage.

I tried Celexa for a while and it seemed to be working but after one month gave such severe diahrea I could not reach the bathroom. The Klonopin constipates me badly now so maybe the two could work together and negate one another.

I seem to remember my last psychiatrist telling me I could not mix Neurontin and Celexa. Celexa is basically the same as Zoloft, Paxil, and Prozac.

I don't know but it is hard to get hold of my psych doc when not in session. I guess she doesn't get paid for telephone calls.

Anyway I am on no anit-depressant only Ultrum, a pain killer, now for the pain which supposedly also has a mood elevator. Neurontin is also a mood stabilizer.

Well, I was never depressed when I drank but now that I quit and have been sober over four months, I just want to die almost daily lately. I've come close to going to the jungle and laying down and just looking at nature and taking one Klonopin or Codeine every fifteen minutes until I finally pass out. I don't think I would wake up because I have a high tolerance for both and the time would allow enough to get into my system slow enough to feel somewhat comfortable before I passed out. My A.A. sponsor has been a big help at stopping me and keeping me praying but the depression just is getting worse. When I have a seizure attack, it really brings the depression out and is usally when I crashed and burned trying to stay off the booze. Now I just think of the jungle instead.

The pain is a chronic problem I have dealt with for years. Diagnosed Fibromyalgia but symptoms of Deiters syndrome or even Lupus although blood tests for Lupus were neg. I am seeing a pain specialist next week again and will discuss the Deiters. They don't have good facilities or medical care here on Guam but I refuse to move anywhere else. I have to live in the hot and humid climate to help keep the pain down. I live alone and don't let the pain stop me. I still mow my own yard, cut hedges do house work, work 40 hours a week etc. I just have this mood swing problem that developed when I quit drinking and seizure disorder that developed along with it. I have partial complex and they break through about every three days. The Neurologist is working on raising the dose of Neurontin, maybe doubling it. So anti-depressants are difficult at this time I guess, no-one has mentioned them lately.

Sorry for the babbling but at least someone was interested in listening. Thanks for asking.
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Thank you Kaylin.  I was very worried about the tylenol.  I am currently taking 2-4 long acting arthritis tylelons for the back pain.  It has been maybe the third day without the vikes and I still do not feel normal.  I am taking Librax 6-8 tablets (usually take 2-4 a day).  When I take vikes I do mix them w/xanax, valium or ativan, a pill or two of each.  If I had xanax I'm sure it would help with the w/d.  I sympathize with your predictament of being in an area of suspicious people.  My doctor once gave me the Lortab 10/500 and it helped.  Unfortunately, while black market people are available, there are only certain products on it.  Vicodin I have always had an affinity to but has actually not been on the black market in my area since about a year.

Thank you again - Bill
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Thank you Kaylin.  I was very worried about the tylenol.  I am currently taking 2-4 long acting arthritis tylelons for the back pain.  It has been maybe the third day without the vikes and I still do not feel normal.  I am taking Librax 6-8 tablets (usually take 2-4 a day).  When I take vikes I do mix them w/xanax, valium or ativan, a pill or two of each.  If I had xanax I'm sure it would help with the w/d.  I sympathize with your predictament of being in an area of suspicious people.  My doctor once gave me the Lortab 10/500 and it helped.  Unfortunately, while black market people are available, there are only certain products on it.  Vicodin I have always had an affinity to but has actually not been on the black market in my area since about a year.

Thank you again - Bill
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I just got back from being off work for several hours. Today is the first in a series of three straight split shift days,,,,yuk.

As soon as I arrived my brain decided to reset itself, it took three times ti finish the job. Maybe it didn't like the iced tea I just drank down real fast while on the move. I thought it would get rid of what I thought was a lack of caffiene headache but it must of been a temporal lobe temper tantrum!

Now I feel like complete **** and will take that codiene after all.
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I just got back from being off work for several hours. Today is the first in a series of three straight split shift days,,,,yuk.

As soon as I arrived my brain decided to reset itself, it took three times ti finish the job. Maybe it didn't like the iced tea I just drank down real fast while on the move. I thought it would get rid of what I thought was a lack of caffiene headache but it must of been a temporal lobe temper tantrum!

Now I feel like complete **** and will take that codiene after all.
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I just got back from being off work for several hours. Today is the first in a series of three straight split shift days,,,,yuk.

As soon as I arrived my brain decided to reset itself, it took three times ti finish the job. Maybe it didn't like the iced tea I just drank down real fast while on the move. I thought it would get rid of what I thought was a lack of caffiene headache but it must of been a temporal lobe temper tantrum!

Now I feel like complete **** and will take that codiene after all.
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Holy cow!!! The machine just dumped me and set all these postings for no reason. Weird! I have no idea what I could have done typing to trigger that reaction. A computer temper tantrum I guess!!!LOL
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Thank you for your support.  It has been the 4th day and I still do not feel quite normal.  Kaylin, I have heard that Darvocets can help with w/d or are cross-tolerant but know of someone who died from pulmonary edema from them.  Should they be avoided? Thank you.
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Darvocet, in my eyes, one of the most useless drugs in existance for controlling pain. It has the analgesic effect of two tylenol but is a narcotic. I took them for a few days when my back doc decided "You don't treat long term pain with narcotics" and wanted to taper me. They made me groggy, blurry eyed and still in pain.  If your goal is to w/d and still have pain- they'll help because they are narcotic. As far as the pulmonary edema-- narcotics (all narcotics) surpress your respiratory drive. If you have a respiratory condition or are taking large quatities the effect is more.  Did that person take the whole bottle, or have a pre-existing condition?  or an allergy to them? Or mixing them with other respiratory depressants?  or you don't have the whole story?  I have never heard of this happening without extenuating circumstance.  Darvocet also contains Tylenol-I wish they would just leave that stuff out!!
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Did some research, any of the ssri's (prozac, zoloft...) can be taken with neurontin. I liked your entries, LOL. Really wanted to get some attention! ha! Might be worth a try to start on antid's. Get lonely in the jungle?  Keep posting. I like to read other peoples "babblings".
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Hi again Kaylin. Today I was introduced to a new (for me) drug called oxycontin. They are yellow with a 40 on them and they are supposed to equal 8 percs. I only ate one because I was afraid I'd OD if I ate any more than that, can you tell me if indeed they are equal to 8 percs and if they are any more addicting than the percs that I'm already addicted to? If I were on a desert island with no phone that would be the only way for me to get off these suckers because my phone rings constantly with people selling these. Why can't I just say no??? Yeah, right. Thanks in advance.
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Could it be that the conspicuosly absent Brian now calls himself Kaylin?  No disrespect intended to either posters. Brian was well liked here for his knowledge of addiction matters.
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Damn, I wish I had their phone number myself sometimes.
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Yes, in fact you are correct, I found out yesterday the SSRI's can be taken withn Neurontin. My old Psych doc had told me the other story. I guess she did not check and I believed her. My new Doc said it would be fine so I am going to try the Celexa again.

Actually, I quite enjoy the jungle. I go there every weekend to collect rare plants. So, to answer your question, "no,it is not lonely out there. Besides, if it was lonely, I would bring my new dog I found several months ago. Animals are much better company than humans I have found for the most part.

Attention, I think you are over inflating your own ego. Talking to a bunch of drug addicts and alcoholics is only one way to get express my feelings. Iy certainly doesn't provide for much entertainment. Why waste time on an addiction forum for attention with people that don't even know who you are? or even your real name? If I want attention I would just simply babble at an A.A. meeting. I have gotten all the attention I need in fact I wish my name was not known on this island. I hate being known by most because than you have to act normal when you feel like acting like a total lunatic, such as cussing someone pushy in a store, or on the road, etc.

I already had my 15 minutes of notoriety over and over on the learning and discovery channels and got sick to death of it. I am a loner and I like to keep it that way.

So Kaylin, or Brian? I don't think your psychiatric evaluations are correct. As far as the enteries, I have no idea how that happened. If you know what button on the computer triggers that please let me know because I type fast and may hit something accidently. Sorry for the repetitious posts. If I was a hacker, I would have simply deleted all but one of them.
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well ive taken alot of pain killers before probably more than 7 a day and i quit takening them instantly when i found out i could get liver cancer and all sorts of diseases and i suggest u do the same u just have to tell ur self that it's all brain drugs its not reality and just dont be around them dont even think about them do what u have most fun doing besisdes pk's because i know they r fun.u will start doin other things like smoking ciggarettes if not already, and other canceris things i took 14 pk's called somas and it was fun but the next day i couldnt talk i could barley think at all


                                            good luck
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well ive taken alot of pain killers before probably more than 7 a day and i quit takening them instantly when i found out i could get liver cancer and all sorts of diseases and i suggest u do the same u just have to tell ur self that it's all brain drugs its not reality and just dont be around them dont even think about them do what u have most fun doing besisdes pk's because i know they r fun.u will start doin other things like smoking ciggarettes if not already, and other canceris things i took 14 pk's called somas and it was fun but the next day i couldnt talk i could barley think at all


                                            good luck
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well ive taken alot of pain killers before probably more than 7 a day and i quit takening them instantly when i found out i could get liver cancer and all sorts of diseases and i suggest u do the same u just have to tell ur self that it's all brain drugs its not reality and just dont be around them dont even think about them do what u have most fun doing besisdes pk's because i know they r fun.u will start doin other things like smoking ciggarettes if not already, and other canceris things i took 14 pk's called somas and it was fun but the next day i couldnt talk i could barley think at all


                                            good luck
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well ive taken alot of pain killers before probably more than 7 a day and i quit takening them instantly when i found out i could get liver cancer and all sorts of diseases and i suggest u do the same u just have to tell ur self that it's all brain drugs its not reality and just dont be around them dont even think about them do what u have most fun doing besisdes pk's because i know they r fun.u will start doin other things like smoking ciggarettes if not already, and other canceris things i took 14 pk's called somas and it was fun but the next day i couldnt talk i could barley think at all


                                            good luck
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well ive taken alot of pain killers before probably more than 7 a day and i quit takening them instantly when i found out i could get liver cancer and all sorts of diseases and i suggest u do the same u just have to tell ur self that it's all brain drugs its not reality and just dont be around them dont even think about them do what u have most fun doing besisdes pk's because i know they r fun.u will start doin other things like smoking ciggarettes if not already, and other canceris things i took 14 pk's called somas and it was fun but the next day i couldnt talk i could barley think at all


                                            good luck
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Avatar_n_tn
well ive taken alot of pain killers before probably more than 7 a day and i quit takening them instantly when i found out i could get liver cancer and all sorts of diseases and i suggest u do the same u just have to tell ur self that it's all brain drugs its not reality and just dont be around them dont even think about them do what u have most fun doing besisdes pk's because i know they r fun.u will start doin other things like smoking ciggarettes if not already, and other canceris things i took 14 pk's called somas and it was fun but the next day i couldnt talk i could barley think at all


                                            good luck
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Avatar_n_tn
well ive taken alot of pain killers before probably more than 7 a day and i quit takening them instantly when i found out i could get liver cancer and all sorts of diseases and i suggest u do the same u just have to tell ur self that it's all brain drugs its not reality and just dont be around them dont even think about them do what u have most fun doing besisdes pk's because i know they r fun.u will start doin other things like smoking ciggarettes if not already, and other canceris things i took 14 pk's called somas and it was fun but the next day i couldnt talk i could barley think at all


                                            good luck
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Oh, by the way, before you get the chance to say "the submit button," LOL, I am referring to something on the keyboard itself that triggers that command or is it just a computer freakout? Like when my brain goes haywire! Speaking of attention, maybe someday you'll get to hear my song I wrote that is only sold here locally, "Shakedown Breakdown" It's how I first convinced myself to stop drinking due to the shakes and seizures. The CD is entitled, "Wildcat in Paradise" You'd get more of a kick out of our first CD "Super-Typhoon Paka" written all from a storm chasers point of view obviously. My spelling is getting worse as is my short term memory. Oh Well.

See this kind of stuff is attention stuff, not talking drugs and booze, and the effects there of, to druggers and boozers!

Another split shift day, YUKKKKKKKKK. I really shouldn't complain too much since I do enjoy my job even if I don't quite care for the hours. More babbling for the day. This time I am in a better mood though.
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I've been clean now for 15 days.  I went through in-patient treatment in 95 and stayed clean for 4 years.  I relapsed and was "back out" for over a year.  My drug of choice was hydrocodone, whether it was vicodin, lortab, norco, lorcet-plus,  really didn't matter.  I was using between 20 - 30 of these daily, and sometimes I would use even more than that.  Every day, after I got going, nothing mattered until I had made the "deal".  Whether I got a prescription filled, went to a new doctor, or checked in with one of my dealers, I couldn't function until I had my narcotics.  That's a hell of a way to live your life, let me tell you.  Fortunately, I am currently enrolled in an intensive out-patient program that lasts for ten weeks.  I'm working my program and not using today;I'll face tomorrow when that time comes.    J
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My heart goes out to you.  As a recovering alcoholic and addict, I've been in your shoes.  If you are addicted (it sounds like you may be) then nothing short of abstinence is the solution.  AA saved my life. NA is the same idea.  You said you have tried it.  Addiction is the toughest thing anyone can ever overcome, but you can if you are willing to follow a few suggestions.  Yeah, for me it was very hard and I backslid many times, but the fellowship and program of AA started to remove the reasons for my drinking.  I have almost 5 years now, and life's not always easy, but the bottom line is that I don't have to get loaded no matter what.  There are people in meetings everywhere who are eager to carry the message to you.  Best wishes.
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I have been on vicodins for 2 years now. After I seperated from my wife,I started taking them and going out partying. I was trying to find a nice lady that wanted to be treated and respected,well let me tell you,there aren't many. So then I started doing vicodins every day and drinking about 3 nights a week,and still wanting to find a nice lady,still no luck. So this went on for 2 years,so Sunday the 8th of Oct 2000,I decided to get off the vicodins and get myself together first,then look for a good lady. But the withdrawls are really tough,I am doing it on my own for now and see if I can kick it,today is day 5 clean for me. I want to wish you all the best of luck,and God Bless all of you....if you would like to talk more,or have any idea's on an easier way to withdrawl (withdrawal),please feel free to e-mail me at ***@**** - Rick --Cinicnnti Ohio

Thank you All!!!
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I just got back from being off work for several hours. Today is the first in a series of three straight split shift days,,,,yuk.

As soon as I arrived my brain decided to reset itself, it took three times ti finish the job. Maybe it didn't like the iced tea I just drank down real fast while on the move. I thought it would get rid of what I thought was a lack of caffiene headache but it must of been a temporal lobe temper tantrum!

Now I feel like complete **** and will take that codiene after all.
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I just got back from being off work for several hours. Today is the first in a series of three straight split shift days,,,,yuk.

As soon as I arrived my brain decided to reset itself, it took three times ti finish the job. Maybe it didn't like the iced tea I just drank down real fast while on the move. I thought it would get rid of what I thought was a lack of caffiene headache but it must of been a temporal lobe temper tantrum!

Now I feel like complete **** and will take that codiene after all.
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Avatar_n_tn

I just got back from being off work for several hours. Today is the first in a series of three straight split shift days,,,,yuk.

As soon as I arrived my brain decided to reset itself, it took three times ti finish the job. Maybe it didn't like the iced tea I just drank down real fast while on the move. I thought it would get rid of what I thought was a lack of caffiene headache but it must of been a temporal lobe temper tantrum!

Now I feel like complete **** and will take that codiene after all.
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Avatar_n_tn

I just got back from being off work for several hours. Today is the first in a series of three straight split shift days,,,,yuk.

As soon as I arrived my brain decided to reset itself, it took three times ti finish the job. Maybe it didn't like the iced tea I just drank down real fast while on the move. I thought it would get rid of what I thought was a lack of caffiene headache but it must of been a temporal lobe temper tantrum!

Now I feel like complete **** and will take that codiene after all.
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Barbara, I apologize for being unclear and offending you. It was a comment on the use of repetition to make sure a note is seen and perhaps we have a slightly different sense of humor. I didn't mean to imply that you wanted everyones attention.  I also should have added that I like to listen to other peoples babblings (and I only chose that word because it is what you called it) because it makes me feel understood to know other people out there have an Idea of what I go through everyday not to use. I have not claimed to make any psychiatric diagnosis, you wrote in your first post on this thread that you are depressed. And the lonliness in the jungle-- I was honestly curious. I am in no way arrogant or thinking I can do things better than everyone.  I am simply a psychiatric nurse with a specialty in chemical dependency who is also an ACTIVE ADDICT. I cannot make myself known since my proffesional license is at stake and this is the only place I get support. I get personal satisfaction out of answering peoples questions as best I can and helping them get accurate answers. My posts are MY OPINION, backed by my education, like I said, it makes ME feel good to help. I am genuinly interested in other peoples stories. that goes for every aspect of my life not just this forum.  

    I'm glad your day went better and I would love to hear your songs. What type of music is it?
     I have no idea why computers don't follow orders. Mine has its own mind and some days it wants to be left alone. ?!?!?!

I am not Brian. Don't know what I can do to prove it. Does it matter?
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Maybe Jonathin knows the trick to the mutisubmit- LOL
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oxycontin comes in many strengths and the ones you have may be 40 mg equal to 8 percs. I couldn't find a physical description anywhere and personally have never seen the 40 mg strength. Maybe someone else on this site has and can verify the dosage. The lowest dose oxycontin is one perc so either way, yes it is more addictive.  Why is it that you are getting phone calls from people asking you if you want the stuff and I am sitting here in pain (and with a mighty good craving) and asking for it doesn't get me any??  what a wonderful world.
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No, I hope I did not sound too defensive and offended. Remember, here on Guam at that time it is only 6:00 am and I am barely awake, especially after 2 mg Klonopin, 2 Ultrum and 1 400 mg Neurontin. I am half a-sleep. After I submitted early, not by a choice of my own,(the multi-entries suddenly) before I got a chance to proof read it to see what it sounded like, I probably would have changed some of it since I realized afterwards that you may think I was offended by a couple of the statements that were harmless such as the multi-entry thing and the babbling. I love the word babbling because it fits so well what I do. I took no offense to that at all I asure you! I wasn't quite sure about the attention thing but I wasn't too worried about it or I would not have responded. I figured you were joking about the computer glitches relating to brain glitches.

I figured a little joking about my seizures may help me to deal with them better. I am not used to the idea of having a seizure disorder. I feel like some kind of freak or something when I freeze in position and start shaking and then sound and act retarded afterwards for about an hour or more. It's weird, I'll get used to it and they will eventually find the right dosages of everything so those episodes should not be quite so frequent.

Anyhow, never mind names, I am glad to read your posts, they are helpful to many out there who really need the advice and info. keep up the good work.

I am surprised you see you say you still use. Would I be too nosy if I asked what you are taking and how you got started ,etc?

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Damn! Now I am really in trouble. I only needed 1/2 of the oxycontin, and it lasts twice as long. Who wants my pushers numbers? You can have them. I wish I didn't, because if they didn't call me, I wouldn't have any access to these pills. Oh, listen to me, I'm blaming other people for my addiction. I just don't know how to say NO! Is anyone going to white knuckle it this weekend? If so, I would like a report on Monday, we are all in this together. PERCS. I'm so sick of that word.
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How many mg of codeine is in percs? and how many do you usually take a day. I have 30 mg pills of straight codeine and it only makes me high for a while, it does not kill pain too well. I've taken three at one time and nothing but a high feeling but mostly groggy and then I get really hyper and can not sleep and I can do tons of work. They are only great for when I need to get tons of things done and really don't feel like doing it. I am supposed to take it three times a day but I am only going to take it on an as needed basis. Ultrum kills pain better and also gives some mood elevation. In fact I just forgot those. I just took my Klonopin for the night now that my work is finally done. Back to another split shift in another seven hours however, yukkkk. I better hurry and finish this because driving in the dark on a busy Friday night while on all this stuff is not too good. But after tomorrow off for two days, yaeh I get to go to the jungle again real soon.

Klonopin is a different story. I am on those hook, line and sinker. They are my pill of choice thanks to my old psych doc who detoxed me from the alcohol. I need it anyway for the seizures so I can get it in heavy doses because it is the most efective with the Neurontin. Sometimes, I like to take 2-3 mg and maybe even four and go to the jungle. It changes my entire perspective on life. I don't see things in such a raw and negative light such as killing, crime, war, poverty, on and on and on. Instead I feel calm all over. My mind and soul are at peace and rest. Even alcohol can not match it.

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You wouldn't be too nosey at all.  I had a back injury at work over three years ago. I started taking vicodin and percs 24/7. I couldn't walk if I didn't have a good dose in me. after about 4 months (who knows if that amount of time is accurate? lol) the pain was easing up and I figured out that the pills -especially vicodin- made me happy and gave me energy. I when they started wearing off I realized I didn't like my boyfriend at the time (who I met after I started using!) so I'd take another and then he wasn't so bad!!  LOL!! what a mistake! anyway, he's gone, the pain isn't. I't not nearly as bad now but pain still interfers with my daily life. I used to love to climb mountains now I can only hike around ponds/lakes- flat surfaces. when I come home from doing laundry, I lay on my back on my floor while the pains shoot down my legs and up my back.  Any bending, turning........... get the picture.  The problem is that I cannot continue to see the doctor because of the length of time it has been. Worker's compensation wants to write me off as disabled- so does the doc. Ever try to find a job as a nurse with a documented disability.  NOT Happpening. If I continue to ask for pain meds- they know my back is not healed.
     Did I get off on a tangent there? anyway, not only do I need the drugs for pain, but I crave the warm and fuzzy feeling and the surge of energy I get when I take them. I can't keep them around very long. If I have them I find the smallest excuse to take one (or two) until they are gone. Then I still have pain and can't get more.  
    That's my story- or the jist of it anyway. Oh- codiene has never been my drug of choice. It isn't fun for me but takes away the majority of the pain.

I won't be here for a few days-- going to the coast for the weekend.   Good luck to all!
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TODAY I AM 7 DAYS CLEAN !!! / Thanks to Inpatient Treatment in NY. i felt hopeless with my adiction (addiction). i was up to 28 percosets a day. i know the feeling everyone has, but these words are true to my heart. GO GET HELP!!! GO DETOX IN A HOSPITAL YOU MUST,

Dont be ashamed what people may say
tell all loved ones about your adiction (addiction)
we are powerless over our adiction (addiction)

if you new me you would say, this guy is no junkie.
well i was AND I SAY WAS

so please do yourself a favor and everyone will respect you more
tell everyone what has happened to you

GO GET THE HELP YOU NEED AND DESERVE,
IF IT WORKED FOR ME / IT WILL WORK FOR EVERYONE!!!!

GOD BLESS TO ALL
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Congradulations!

You first have to get honest with yourself and admit to the addiction. It is very helpful to come clean with your loved ones as well. They are essential for your continuing sobriety. You need a great deal of support now that you are detoxed so aftercare is a must. Left to our own devices we will invariably set ourselves up for the big relapse. I speak from experience here because I've fallen victom due to my own ego. We get better and feel like everything is going just great and BOOM!
The first time I went into drug rehab-It was like what are "you" doing here? I felt out of place for sure being a college grad and successful in business with a wife and kids and three cars and a $400,000 home and all the trimmings. All the intellegence, wealth and standing in the community do not make us any better than the lowest street dwelling junkie that ever walked the earth. Drugs, alcohol, sex, and a thousand other forms of addiction make all of us equal in the end. Now, go walk the walk and talk the talk as they say in NA.
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Frist, congradulations on getting honest and starting to clean up.

Detox only gets you through the physical withdrawal however it doesn't change the lifestyle that lead you to use. You need the help of good aftercare to find your trigger points and change your lifestyle accordingly. N.A. is a good start but if you have any group counseling offered at your mental health facility nearest to you, you may also want to attend those meetings. You get feedback on your problems and counceling and not just sit around listening to a bunch of people babbling about their same problems week after week with no cross talk or feedback. Sometimes constructive criticism comes out of it. Things people see in us that we often don't see in ourselves until it it pointed out. GOOD LUCK TO YOU!

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I know what you mean about being labeled with a disablity. I am labeled with three now. Mental illness(depression), alcoholism and a seizure disorder. I am lucky I have an understanding boss, he has actually observed one of my shakedowns. I usually know when they are coming on so I quickly locked my office door after asking the computer guy to leave the room for few minutes. He must have said something because both bosses unlocked the door and came in pretending to be looking for something. And there I was shaking down hard and nothing I could do about it. It was quite embarrassing and then I had to explain it was't just withdrawal seizures anymore.

Well, on a more positive note, good luck on your little excursion to the coast. I plan to go look for plants in the jungle tomorrow so long as it doesn't rain too much. That always relaxes me. Take care, bye for now.

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Hi all, I have been reading all of your wonderful ("wonderful" because they are something I can RELATE to) stories and words of hardship and wisdom at this site for a few months now. I too am an addict (Vicodin is my drug of chioice--average 8 per day)and I have been addicted to this evil drug for the last 1-2 years. Prior to that I abused Valium and whatever else I could get my hands on. I have had a love affair with various different pills for as long as I can remember.  The strange thing is that I never got into alcohol or "street" drugs.  And I never considered my drug use a "problem" until I found Vicodin and discovered that these pills have become the most important thing in my life.  I too, like Kaylin, am a registered nurse. Being an addict poses a HUGE risk to my career and livelyhood. Thankfully there are more than a few people other that you all (now) whom I have been able to confide in regarding my addiction.The problem as I see it is that I have NO interest in quitting!  I LOVE Hydrocodone. IT has made me a new person and given me a new lease on life. Its the greatest mood elevator I have EVER found. Thusfar, it has not interfered with my life in any was that has become apparent to me (not including the daily pill counting and agonizing over where I will get my next Rx!).  I have also not done anything illegal as of yet to otain my stash--well, that isnt completely true, but nothing that would hurt another person at least. And I dont use while at work or take from my patients, but I could see that happeneing I suppose down the line. Help.  what is a Gurrl to do?  I LOVE this site, it makes me feel sooo much bettter just knowing that there are others (and SO many) who are dealing with the same or similar issues to mine. Thanks for being here y'all (sorry for the BABBLING, but I TOO love to go on and on!).
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That yellow brown pill was 40 mg oxycontin. My eyes lit up when i saw that. Yes it's 8 time released percs.They come in 10 mg white 20 mg pink 40 yellow 80mg green. Those greenies wow.You must be new to this site. Oxy is wat everyone is trying to lick.Vics,I wish I wee hoked on vics. If someone wants to turn you on to oxycontin...pass.If yo don't pass, don't brak it in half or chew it. You are supposed to get that medicine over 8-12 hours. Break or chew you get it all at once...very dangerous. Lok up oxycontin on the archive.I'm not saying vicodin isn't bad, it's much worse on your liver, but try getting off oxycontin.When I'm withdrawling from oxy I can eat as many vicodins as i can fit in my mouth and it does NOTHING.Best thing for real pain, but abuse them and you'll be spending a great deal of time in hell.
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What the hell has happened to this sight. Where the hell are the DR.s What is this now, strictly a support group? Thanks for nothing.Where are you now Brian, the Yukon? Time to find a new site whee somebody is home for crying out loud.
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Hey folks. I'm glad I found this site. I am currently w/d from hydros. I can totally relate to Vicodin Gurrl. The only reason I have found to quit is a lack of resources. If I had an endless supply I would be happy for the rest of my life, regardless of how short that would be. I've been taking them for about 1.5 years and love the way I feel on them! I love who I am when I'm on them. I guess thats why they're so hard to give up. I'm so glad to feel like I'm not alone in this. I have quit completely several times w/in the last year but the memory of the way I felt on them never leaves my mind for a minute. I'm always looking for a way to get my hands on them, regardless of the cost. Before I take them, I remember the sweats and chills and the depression but at that time, it all seems worth it. I think they should just legalize it and the whole damn world would be happy. Peace on Earth!!  After reading all this, it sounds to me like Tylenol is more dangerous than Hydrocodone, and its not near as fun. Anyway, thanks for listening.
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Hi Chuck. I am not new to this site. I am hopelessly addicted to percs, have been for 10 years and eat up to 20 a day and can't stop! Why did you say the oxy 40's were so bad? They are supposed to be better because they don't have as much tynelol.The good news is that it was a fluke that my pusher had these instead of percs, he said he probably wouldn't be able to get them anymore, and besides, they were $20.00 a pill. But man, oh man, were they wonderful. I did break one in half because I didn't want to waste them, where as I used to eat 10 percs in a 4 hour time frame, I only ate one (2 halves) of the oxy's. I did notice I was a little bound up this morning, couldn't go to the bathroom, is that one of the side effects? Most of my posting are under "Why can't I stop"  and "Xanax." Great web site, huh? Let me know about the oxys, so I won't feel so bad when I can't get them anymore.
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A little attached to Brian are we? I feel this is a great forum where people can feel comfortable speaking the truth and not hiding their addictions under the carpet. There are alot of suffering people that have no one to talk with except on forums such as these. As you should very well know, addicts have a tendency to isolate to hide their problem, thus no friends to spill their guts to.

So if you don't like this forum, then simply try another one. I think Brian gave excellent advice but why depend on only one person. There are many others here whom have shared real true life experiences. So get a grip or take a few Klonopins or something!!!! LOL
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I've always liked you Tom because of your wit, humor and compassion and good advice. What are you looking for here at this forum? More of the same canned answers from Dr. Steve? You don't have to leave us,do you? We are just people who need people that can share our fears, hope and inspiration.
Please keep visiting this forum!
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Dear People:
I have been where the majority of you are with your problems with prescription narcotics. As long as you have access to them you will do them . It will take some kind of drug Hercules to beat them by cold turkey or tapering.I have tried most of the tapering and cold turkey you all have mentioned here it simply will not work. You need to switch to a long acting opiate such as Bupernorphine,methadone, or LAAM. Buprenorphine is the newest and soon will BE available through your family physician. These drugs will allow you to get your life together and forget about your constant search to ease your narcotic cravings. It is necessary to stay on these drugs generally about two years to get your life back together. And then it is recomended to do a very slow detox of about 1-2 mgms. a week to to do an almost painless detox. Initially when you start one of these drugs it is very important to find an adequate dose to stop withdrawals and cravings. Once you have found your proper dose stay threr for a while and start enjoying life again not having to worry about drug cravings. These drugs at an adequate dose  have no long terms effects on your vital organs. There are people who have been on MMT for twenty years without any effects to the vital organs. Do research yourself to determine the truth about these drugs. There are so many myths in regrads to methadone maintenance treatment that it is not funny. ALmost everything you here negative about these drugs are false. They are very safe. You have to make up your mind that you want to stop hydrocodone and then switch to one of these drugs and your cravings are gone. Long term use of vicodin,lortab,lorcet,percocet,percodan,and etc. was never intended. If one continues to use them on a long term basis you eventually do much harm to your internal organs- if not lethal!
Methadone is the most researched drug of ALL drugs and proven to be safe if taken at a proper or "adequate dose" . One thing to remember is that you did not become an addict over night and you will not become drug FREE over night. I have no intention of debating this subject with anyone. I simply know that these drugs have saved many a pill addict and has helped myself and thousands  of others get there lives back together.
Sincerely, Dan Swatty LCDC (intern)
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yes i agree after treatment is key, i did alot of research 1st.thats why i decide on that one special hospital in NY. the meetings were so intense. yeah detox was is easy. but what i learned about myself was the key. so do your home work 1st. and dont be ashamed to come clean with all family members.

attend meetings
remember why you found this web site?
do you remember why? i do
looking for a fix ... low on pills

please everyone DO YOUR HOME WORK 1ST.

IF WEAK ASS VINNIE COULD DO IT .... SO CAN YOU !!!!!!

STAY TUFF & GOD BLESS
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Well hello again all, guess what?  Seems as if my last posting was somewhat prophetic. Turns out my liver enzymes are elevated...were in the 50's a few days ago and now are in the 80-90 range. My doctor is baffled...she doesnt know how much Vicodin I have been taking and over what period of time...but to tell you the truth I am too a bit surprised. I have RARELY taken more than 8 Vicodin in a day ( thereby not exceeding the 4000mg/d Tylenol limit) and for the MAJORITY of my using time I only took anywhere from ONE to 5 tablets daily. Basically the 8-10 daily dose is a RECENT one.  So I dont know what this means.  Perhaps it is God's way of giving me a reason to stop before it further F's up my life.  As of yet I havent quit despite the fact that I may need to have a LIVER BIOPSY next week. By the way, I am otherwise in EXCELLENT health. I am athletic, not overweight...IF anyone can offer any words of advice or support, I'd love to hear 'em (other than the OBVIOUS "you need to quit" which I have already figured out on my own). Hey, should I start a new thread or what? Is anyone still reading this one?  Peace :)
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boy are we all alike or what, lexi hit my thoughts on the money..saying about the memorys, the feelings we have thinking of being on the pills..vic gurl, makes you want to work and feel normal. someone else saying we did not get addicted overnight and we won,t get unaddicted overnight.its a battle for us all. if we fail we just try again, that,s all we can do. me i going to try as soon as my supply runs out, guess i would keep on taking them but i,m running out of resourses, after 10 years of this yo yo on and off..well maybe this time i can do it..wish me luck ..and iwish everyone of us the same.with all my heart..bless u all....fellow addict & friend  joe>>>>
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Wow, for such a group of supportful people you sure are quick to flame someone.I am not the TOM you all know and love,don't rip him, i have never posted. My point is: I too have gotten much suport and comfort from people in similar situations. But you are not Qualified to dispense some of the advice that has been psted here. I've seen times when people said it was okay to mix certain meds and was told by an MD that the particular mix can cause seizures even death.It's a great site for support, I just wondered where the DR.s have gone.For supposingly being such caring people you are quick to draw conclusions.
Calm down BARBARA...you are quite judgemental my friend. I will find a new site and you can go on crying to your friends. Hypocrite !!!!!
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Wowee, someone needs to take a CHILL PILL (or maybe some hydrocodone, who knows?)  :)This Tom guy has gone a wee bit psycho on this site, hasn't he folks?  Oh well, we all get a bit worked up at times.  We should all be careful when mixing medications unless advised by a DOCTOR, but I think people giving advice here are simply stating what has worked for them. I believe the readers here are smart enough to make choices not simply based on the input of INTERNET advice, but will determine what is best for them using a mutiltude of resources.  Bye for now!
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Bill, where do you live, in what state.  How do you get them so easily off the street.  I live in Maryland and don't have a clue as to how to get them off the street.  And of course I'm afraid of getting caught.  I am just an ordinary housewife who always runs out of pain meds early.  I have always gotten my drugs from my doctor but who knows when he will cut me off.
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I WAS JUST BROUSING, TRYING TO FIND FACTS CONCERING
CODINE ABUSE WHEN THIS SITE CAME UP.
MY SON IS A STRUGLING ADDICT. HE IS TRYING TO STAY CLEAN.
I DON'T KNOW HOW TO HELP.
I'M SURE IT CAN'T BE EASY.
READING YOUR COMMITS BROKE MY HEART BUT AT THE SAME TIME
GAVE ME AN INSIGHT.
I REALIZE I CAN'T HELP HIM, HE HAS TO BE THE ONE TO HELP HIMSELF, WITH
GODSHELP OF COURSE.
SO FOR YOU GUYS IN THE SAME SITUATION AS MY SON--
PLEASE WORK HARD TO STAY CLEAN AND REMEMBER
GOD CAN TAKE AWAY THE PROBLEM
I KNOW GOD WILL WORK IN MY SON'S LIFE
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To who ever was asking about oxycontin. It's so bad because it is SO good. It is a great pain medication, but if you have addictive tendencies, watch out for this one.I got put on them for a serious back problem. In no time I became tolerant to the dosage and up it went.If you become physically dependent on oxy look out.You may go through your script to soon and man do you feel bad wihout them.They are very bad to withdrawl (withdrawal) from. Never break one or chew one because the amount of meds in them are intended to be releasede over a peroid of 8 to 12 hours.Breaking them you get it all at once.Addicts love it likethat for the rush of getting it all at once.Can be very dangerous.If you are not doing them don't start. If a doctor puts you on them take ONLY as directed.They are very expensive.If you don't have a prescripton card you are screwed. If you take to the streets a 40 mg. pill can cost $25 and an 80mg. $40 or $50 dollars.Trust me...don't get on this for kicks. They are next to impossible to kick. Go to archive section under Oxycontin and read some descriptions of what hell is like.By the way, I'm on them and am weeks away fom my refill.Hope I don't bump into you down there.Good luck everyone.By the way, that guy a few psts back is not "our "Tom I'm pretty sure. I know he was tired of one post a day but I doubthe would have written that.And whoever it was, cut him some slack. God only knows what he was on or going through.We are supposed to be compassionate here!
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I just found a drug listed on the internet that has hydrocodone mixed with Ibuprophen, which I find to be a good pain killer in itself. It also reduces inflamtion of swolen joints and tissues that cause pain whereas Tylenol does not.

The name of the drug is Vicoprophen. I am going to ask my Doc on Thursday if I can get this in place of the codiene. I don't know if he'll prescribe it but it's worth a try.

I don't really like the codiene much as it does not kill the pain even mixing it with Ibuprophen.

I see my Neurologist today, I'll ask his advice and see what he thinks about this whole mess. He agrees with me taking the Klonopin but I don't know how he will feel about long term useage of strong pain killers for chronic pain. I guess I'll guess I'll find out soon. Hang in there Vicoden Gurrl. Nice to have you join in the forum.
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I've taken many of those...My health didn't cover them though when I did have a RX for them...so check into that. Most HMO's think that Vicodin is a reliable source of pain relief and won't cover Vicoprofen...There is only one company on the market making VP right now...Knoll Pharm...So it's a proprietary drug right now and runs a little over a dollar apiece without insurance. 30 tablets used to cost me $44+. Terrible. If your plan covers it - go for it. It's better and easier on the body. It has the strength of Hydrocodone equivalent to and Extra Strength Vicodin. Good drug - but very overpriced - good luck. - Mike P.
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Thanks for the information!

Yes, I pay 20.00 for Ultrum right now because it's considered a formulary drug by the insurance company. I am not sure how they would list Vicoprofen but it may be the same way. If it comes down to paying for it, I'll buy it, I need it! Thanks again!
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No wonder Tom 2 freaked on you. Look at how many times your name appears on this list. It used to be that you could get advice from qualified medical pfofessionals.Now due to possible budget problems there is only one thread allowed a day.
I'm glad you find solace in sharing your woes with everyone, but I agre with Tom 2.Change the site name to support for those with addictions. Then people wouldn't be misled into thinking they wee getting sound advice.Or better yet change the name to "Talk addiction with Barb and friends"
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I've struggled with Vicodin for the past six years. I have a chronic blood disorder, which routinely produces painful ulcerations in my mouth. Back in 1994, my hematologist at the time prescribed Vicodin for the pain and provided multiple refills. It's been a love-hate relationship ever since.

As soon as I realized I was abusing them, I told my husband. He would hide them from me, and I would become obsessed with finding them. Of course, eventually I'd find them, take too many, and have to confess to him. We've been on this rollercoaster for six years now. I wish I'd never gotten on. Problem is, I still have access. Whenever I start to feel sick with my blood condition, I panic and want to feel better. That's when I pick up the phone and call my hematologist. His nurse automatically calls in 50 pills with 3 additional refills. I've asked for fewer pills, with no refills, but sometimes she forgets. I'm not blaming her -- I just don't want access to them. My willpower stinks.

Over the past several months, I've developed intense headaches, and I suspect it's from years of abusing Vicodin. My neurologist is completely stumped by my headaches, and all of the treatments she's tried have been unsuccessful. Has anyone else had bad, chronic headaches from drug abuse?

My husband (who is now a doctor) says that Vicodin has more "euphoric-producing" chemicals than other pain relievers (ie., percocet).  Has anyone else heard this?

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While I don't have a medical degree to compare with your husband's, I'm surprised at his comment re: Vicodin.

(a suggestion to everyone, don't rely solely on professionals for drug info. They frequently "dumb it down" for bottom-feeding non-MDs like ourselves. Go to www.rxlist.com, and learn to use it. It gives you the same manufacturer's lit on virtually every drug in the Physician's Desk Reference)

If you go there and look up Vicodin, Carole, you'll discover that Vicodin is composed of the narcotic hydrocodone and the relatively useless but very dangerous OTC drug called Tylenol.

Percs are based on the narc oxycodone. Generally speaking, oxycodone is a bit more euphoric than hydrocodone. I think most posters on this site using oxycontin (same drug as percs) would agree. They usually only use Vics when they can't get Oxy's or percs.

Anyway, to each his own
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hello, everyone. I have been in Seattle for the past week and couldn't get online. It's nice to be appreciated. Thanks for the kind words.
I do understand Tom-2's frustration with this site. I have posted many times about same.
However, I come to this site to talk to fellow addicts, not sermonizing MDs who, for the most part, just parrot the same party line homilies I've been hearing for 20 years. I have learned more from my many friends on this site than from any doctor or addiction pro. The greatest benefit is just knowing I'm not alone. I have been an opiate addict for all my adult life, which would put my use at about 27 years. I was a drugstore cowboy for ten years, forging an average of one script every day for ten years. They were all to feed my own habit (you do the math). I have never sold or even given any away. For all that time, I have used alone, kicked alone and gone to jail alone. So, this site is quite important to me.

It is a bit dodgy to dispense advice on pills, I must admit, given we have no license to practice. But I think all, or most of us, know this and don't just run out and do what some poster told us to.

In my experience, most doctors almost never give you the straight story on drugs. Most of them try to manipulate you with some finely crafted half-truth. Hence, the posts on this site really do have informational value.

I'm in a curious position right now. I just returned from my 10-year old nephew's funeral in Seattle. He died of neuroblastoma, a childhood cancer. His mother, my sister, who knows me well, gave me all of his 60mg MS-Contins (morphine). I'm glad to have them, and more than just a little excited to be able to experience the big M again, but, of course, I think about where they came from every time I use one.

It's funny, I've been using for so long that even chewing up a 60mg morphine pill doesn't really send me anywhere. I can, however, now rate all the majors in terms of euphoric power. Oxycodone is definitely king of the oral narcs. A fresh shot of Demerol would probably out-do an Oxy, but then, injected anything is usually pretty good. Next I'd rate hydrocodone, and only after that morphine. Between the two "Contins," I'd think MS would be "safer" long term, because the euphoria is not as intense. Also, morphine, like codeine, seems to have a self-limiting character in that overuse brings on unpleasant side effects more readily than overuse of oxy or hydrocodone. Oxy and hydro are like candy or potato chips. You want to just eat more and more.

Thank god for morphine and drugs like it! My nephew fought his cancer for more than 3 years and without morphine would have died in agony. Luckily, he had a smart, compassionate doctor that made sure he didn't suffer. I say, regardless of the consequences, anyone in pain should get what they need for relief. From reading the posts on this site and from my own experience as a chronic pain patient, I think the problem always boils down to control. It's not that we all want to be junkies (although in my own case, I'm not sure I can say that), we are using a type of drugs that is inherently hard to self-administer. It might solve a lot of problems if doctors, patients, drug companies and even health insurance organizations could engineer some kind of universally available facility that could ensure that patients got what they truly needed for pain relief each day but also exert the control that so many of us lack. I imagine this is what pain clinics do, but they don't seem to be available to enough people.

Anyway, glad to be back. This is a very interesting thread. I, too, miss Brian because he is a doctor who truly knows of what he speaks. I hope he hasn't relapsed bigtime in any event.
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Anytime you have a no-name dish out criticism you know automatically it is probably not only a coward, but the same one who criticised earlier and then got blasted by a few others.

Yes, this is a forum for people with drug addiction problems whom are in the same boat so to speak. If you don't like my particular stories shared then scrol, that's what it was put on the keyboard for! You are entitled to your own opinion so I'll just leave it at that. But you are incorrect to indicate I dominate the forum. Although I do add my two cents worth in each day while I am at work, I don't reply to many of the treads. Just scrol down and check for yourself. How many other threads have I responded to lately? I think you need to get off the stuff, you are losing your short term memory and becoming irrational or possibly hallucinating?

Welcome back real Tom, you are not afraid to admit the truth about your true addiction. The truth has allowed for other addicts like myself to face reality of their problems and not remain in denial like so many do.

That is always the first step needed for any plan for recovery.
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thanks for the welcome. I don't know if we've spoken before. Vicoprofen, huh? It certainly sounds less stomach-churning than codeine and ibuprofen. Generally, 30mg of codeine is considered equivalent in pain killing power to one Vicodin. It is believed that codeine kills pain because it is metabolized in the body into morphine, 10% by weight (30mg codeine is metabolized into 3mg of morphine). Both codeine and ibuprofen are very hard on the stomach, though. I don't know if you're having stomach pain, but it would be even better if you could eliminate the ibuprofen. I have experienced most drug combos, and I can tell you that Vicodin and Klonopin together are going to feel like heroin -- no kidding. One potentiates the other and will give you an extremely good ride. I imagine Vicoprofen will have the same dose of hydrocodone in it that Vicodin has. Why Vicoprofen, though? Why not spare your stomach and just do Vicodin? Sure, high doses of the tylenol in Vicodin could damage your liver, but we're talking about a relatively high dose to do this.
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I'm one of those no name posters you were talking about. I use no name because when I was some of my posts were mysteriously being deleted. I have never criticized anyone nor have I been criticized. I like sharing my experiences with all of you here as it helps me remember who I am and where I've been when it comes to addiction. I can't get out the way I used to and rely on my computer to "keep in touch". Thanks.
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keep up the good work tom and barbara. your helping us all....joe another pain pill addict...
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I too post without a name for private reasons. Please do not lump people together because of the experience you had with that gentle man who is obviously having some major problems. Follow your own advice and scroll past.Tom who just returned from funeral(very sorry Tom) is not an MD, but I have gotten more help from him than anybody on this site.But like he said there is some frustration about how the site is beingrun lately.DR.Brian will go in depth a little more instead of telling you to go see a specialist.I hope you find comfort here, but please don't generalize about no-name posters and others you know nothing about.You were welcomed here with open arms, do te same for others and if somebody like Tom 2 freaks let him go, he may be on the edge. Just a suggestion.Good luck.
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Wow, I did now know Klonopin and codiene together were like heroin. I never tried heroin but I like to take 2 mg Klonopin with 2- 30 mg codiene together. I skip the Ibuprophen unless I am in really severe and nagging pain.

I usually take that combo before going to the jungle to look for rare plants. It seems to make the surroundings almost like walking through paradise. Now I know why! Thanks for the info tom./

Hi, Joe, welcome to the group.

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I've been prescibed Soma and Lorcet for an on going neck and back problem that I won't go into detail about. I like this combo but am afraid of the Soma. I feel an almost euphoric rush when it kicks in. It happened yesterday morning while driving to work. What is in this Soma(muscle relaxer) that can cause this reaction? Lorcet alone does not have this pronounced of an effect on me. It kills the pain but doesn't cause me any problems while driving. I looked up Soma in the PDR but don't understand what it does or how it does it. Any idea?
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Thank you, Tom. Your comments regarding my headaches really made sense. About a year ago, I started having massive headaches which ended up being caused by nocturnal clenching and grinding of my teeth. During the month and a half it took my primary care doctor to determine the cause, I was popping Vicodin left and right to control the headache pain. A few weeks after my new nightguard diminished my headaches, and I had stopped taking the Vicodin, I ended up in the hospital for two weeks with the worst headache of my life. They had me on I.V. Dilautid every 3 hours around the clock. After that severe headache eventually resolved itself, I was pain-free for several weeks. Then a confluence of stresses in my life led me to abuse the pills again. And a week or so after I was "clean" for a week or so, the headaches started.

As I think back to the worst headache periods, I must confess that I wasn't exercising regularly. Normally, I do workout every day for at least an hour. Your suggestion leads me to believe that the lack of exercise may have certainly played a key role.

As far as my husband goes, he's only a resident, so he has limited experience and knowledge. Where we live, prescription drug abuse in rampant. On any given day 50% of his time is spent with patients seeking drugs. It's so strange to hear him complain of these people when I can totally relate to what his patients are doing.

From what I'm reading, it sounds like the acetaminophen is the dangerous culprit here. At times, I find myself taking 4 or more pills at a time (each with 500 mg of acetaminophen). How bad is this? Is there a way to decrease the damage being done to my liver? Are you people worried about what's happening to your livers, too?

Thanks for being there.
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Soma combined with a pain drug like lorcet or codeine is a very "heady" combo. Soma is related to an old class of drug, one of which is meprobamate. It's action has been compared by some to alcohol, but I liken it more to Valium. It's a great drug if you're resting and don't have to function, but I would never drive on even Soma alone, let alone combined with Lorcet (Vicodin). That's really, really dangerous. Soma "potentiates" lorcet and vice versa, that is, they each make the other much stronger. Again, I think Soma's a great muscle relaxant and will help you "stretch' your supply of Lorcet. Soma is also much, much easier to "put down" after you don't need it than, say, valium. So, again, at home, it's great. Behind the wheel or at work -- forget it!
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I'm glad my reply was helpful. I understand that tylenol can be very harmful to the liver. Look for Kayin's remarks in one of these threads about Tylenol doses. I don't believe you can get hydrocodone without either tylenol or aspirin. Lots of people use OxyContin becasue it's at least as powerful as Vicodin but is not compounded with any additive drug. Believe it or not, I get a lot of relief from plain Darvon 65, that is, propoxyphene without the Tylenol or reg aspirin. They're those old pink capsules -- sometimes hard to find, and most people don't get the relief I do from them (I also take 4 at a time). I sometimes take them with enteric aspirin, which doesn't impact the stomach. That combo is actually quite effective. There is a drastic way of taking the tylenol out of drugs like vicodin or Tylenol #3 (tylenol is not water soluble, hydrocodone and codeine are, so there is a crude trick to disolving the vics in a glass of water, cooling the glass to encourage the Tylenol to settle to the bottom of the glass, then using a straw to suck up just the water, leaving the Tylenol sediment at the bottom of the glass. It's not totally efficient, meaning it won't get rid of all the tylenol or yeild all the hydrocodone, and it's not too convenient, but it works.
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Thanks for the info and advice about Soma! I see know what the nurse meant when she handed me my scripts. "There's nothing like getting into the hot tub with a glass of wine and a Soma after a bad day!". I'd be concerned about falling asleep and drowning, personally.He,he
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People:
Some of the information given here by drug users is useful. But the majority of the info given here is for the soul purpose of continuing a very destructive disease known as opiate addiction.
Sounds like the majority of people here have legitimate pains but the meds mentioned here are medicines that give the most high for the abuser. If there was a med that would kill the pain w/out euphoria-- the majority would not be interested. Because the majority of the people posting here are feeding the monkey on their backs. I can talk this way because I have been where all of you are now. I have two herniated dics which I cope with on a daily basis. I took pain medicine to kill the pains of my injury several years until I realised I ws a pill abuser. You all have to get out of your denial and face up what your real problem is> >>>opiate addiction. Until you all do this you will stay on the road of pain pill addiction. If this is not true for a small number you may take this as reminder of what will happen if you do not stay in control of your self medication. A perfect example of mixing klonopin with vicodin to get a high similar to heroin. You people must realise that you are not concerned with legitimate pains but ways to obtain euphoric highs. You all are no different than heroin addicts that are self medicating a heroin addiction. There are some people in her with legitimate pains but these drugs mentioned are pills that are simply morphine or heroin in a pill. Just because you are not injecting the drugs in you veins does not mean you do not have the same addictions as a heroin addicts. WAKE UP people listen to what you are saying. For some of you it is already to late. For some you should seek treatment for opiate addictions. Do not get me wrong it is never to late to seek some form of treatment. You can read my earlier post by Doc Dan to read about the most successful treatments.  The easiest part is detoxing from the drug. RELAPSE prevention is the most difficult part. The experts say that until an addict is 18 months drug free there is no success in a treatment. Instead of setting here xchanging drug cocktail information >>> on what drugs that the doctor can give you to reach euphoria search the web for ways TO BEAT this disease of opiate addiction. The road the majority of you are on is a DEAD END street. OPEN your eyes and see what you are facing A DEADLY AND HORRIBLE DISEASE that can be beat. The first step is to admit to yourself that
you have the disease of opiate addiction.                        Sincerely Again, Dan Swatty (C.D.C.I.)
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A gentle suggestion: if you
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I was pill addict for several years. You name it in the narcotic department I took it. Doses very high I do not even care to mention. Pain pills take your free will away. You live on the pills agenda and not your own. My passion is due to the fact that  there are lives on the line here. My zeal as you put is not new for I am six years clean from the pain pill rat race. Opiate agonist treatment is what saved me. They take away your cravings and let you live a life free of chasing a high. My heart goes out to all of you and simply want to pass on a bit of useful information. It wasn't until last year that I decided to go into a helping profession. I hope that with my knowledge and the grace of god I can help some people with this disease of drug addiction. My best to all. Until next time....
Sincerely,
Dan S. (lcdc intern)
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Whew! What a speech! All I have to say is I hate pain and suffering and I love euphoria and feeling good. The last actual euphoria I felt was in Super-Typhoon Paka three years ago.

I depise pain, seizures and especially the DT's! Luckily I have no more DT's but I still have break through seizures and a chronic pain disorder that at times makes me want to kill.

I would rather get rid of the pain, elevate my mood if possible sounds fine to me,(Nothing wrong with being in a good mood, in my opinion)!

The good news is, I am off work early today in a few minutes and am preparing to head to the jungle for meditation, relaxation and doing one of my many hobbies, this one being looking for rare plants. I plan to take my usual dose of 2 mg Klonopin, two -50 mg Ultrum, and two 30 mg Codeine added once I make it to the jungle.

Yes. this may seem a bit much but I would like to see you tromp through the jungle in 88 degree heat and 94 percent humidity. The Klonopin helps get rid of the break through seizures and acts as a muscle relaxant which is very important in the jungle.

The Ultram kills the pain very well, the codiene helps too but adds an extra boost of mood elevation which is important to me because I communicate with God or meditate, if you prefer to call it that, and I feel close to nature and God when I am in a higher state of hypnotic mind set.

I just recently read that 50 mg of Ultram is the same as 60 mg of Codeine! I was suprised at that but now understand why it kills the pain better than codiene.

If this bothers you, well then I guess you will suffer being bothered while I will have my fun and enjoyment in the jungle. War and Poverty are borthersome too but I don't go around obsessing over them or I would definately never have fun!

Thanks for the advice though, although I doubt I will change my lifestyle over it. I quit drinking. That was my main downfall and now I am not even tempted since I have the correct pain killers and mood elevators. Thank you.

Barbara
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I come in here at times to find smoking addiction answers.
I feel for all who are going through the prescription drug struggles i read about here.
I just want to say that there must be a way for you to live your life free from drugs.
I also have chronic pain. Yes, I know what pain is. But even though I could be on strong painkillers, I choose not to be.
This is so sad in reading these posts.
I wonder, and want to ask some of those here, how on earth did you finally quit the abuse?
This is sad.
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I come in here at times to find smoking addiction answers.
I feel for all who are going through the prescription drug struggles i read about here.
I just want to say that there must be a way for you to live your life free from drugs.
I also have chronic pain. Yes, I know what pain is. But even though I could be on strong painkillers, I choose not to be.
This is so sad in reading these posts.
I wonder, and want to ask some of those here, how on earth did you finally quit the abuse?
This is sad.
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tell me about the narcotic agonist therapy. I believe you're talking about the partial agonist, buprenorphin (or LAAM?). My question is, if you still have chronic pain that doesn't respond to anything but opiates, will the buprenorphin or LAAM provide analgesia as well as stopping the narco cravings? I know methadone is a good pain reliever and is also used to treat addiction, but I don't know if they give it out in such dosages that it will serve as a pain reliever and addiction treatment. Also, will I have to go to an addiction specialist or can I go to my regular doctor? Is it meant as a temporary therapy (since I have chronic pain which is definately not temporary)?. By the way, without wearing out my keyboard, I've exhausted the non-narcotic therapies for my back condition. When another comes along, I'll try it. But until then, I simply can't function without effective pain relief and only opiates have been able to provide that. I'd appreciate your time to answer my questions. Thanks in advance.
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I have only first hand experience with methadone maintenance therapy (MMT). When I started on MMT six years ago I was amazed how all my cravings and withdrawals were curtailed with 40mgms of methadone. MMT allowed me to get a handle on my pain issues also.  I found that through the use of methadone over a period of time about 90% of the pain I was encountering while on Lortab 10 and the like diminished on methadone. Do not be scared of methadone it is a very safe and effective drug for pain and narcotic cravings. Long term use MMT has absolutely no effect on heart,liver or other vital organs. On MMT I was able to complete my education at age 46 compared to when Lortab my only concern was how I was going to score my next prescrition-- that is what I mean when I say that MMT allows you to get your life together- it's a real life saver. In closing I want to ad that there is a web sight that has all your answers to questions about opiate agonist treatment. This forum or website is Methadone Information Exchange. Use any search engine to find the MIE board. It is a patient run forum that covers all opiate agonist therapies and tons of useful information about many issues covered here. Also there are many people there with chronic pain issues. There is not a better run forum on the internet. Good luck Tom and all. Sincerely,Doc Dan S. (LCDC intern)
PS. When I have breakthrough pain now plain Ibuprofen helps me when in the past while on Lortab it very rarely helped. If I have unusally severe pain ONE lortab 7.5 mgm will kill the pain for 4-6 hours. Most clinics will allow occasional use of a legitimate prescrition pain pill. But you will find you will rarely need anything for pain while on MMT. I will answer any questions further if some one will tell me how to start a new thread on opiate agonist therapy. Doc Dan...
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thanks so much for the info. That gives me some hope that there is a solution afterall. I'm going to check it out tonight. re: starting a new thread, I'm afraid the site only accepts one new thread per day. I imagine it's first-come-first-serve. But we know you now and will find your thread regardless of where you plant it. I suggest planting it in a fairly recent thread so it will stay on the board longer. There is the question of interrupting the existing thread, but you can read the dates and pretty much tell which ones are "spun." his one would serve just fine.
I know there are many of us who are just plain scared to ask for help because we'll be stripped of any pain relief "on the spot." Not every doctor is as enlightened as he/she might be. Thanks again, Dan.
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I am on my fourth day without vicodin.  I was very comforable with seven vics a day. I have been addicted for six years.

I am just trying to find out what to expect as I try to get out of the miserable cycle of vicodin addiction.

Why did I stop?  I got busted by my doctor(s).  For ten years, I've had a doctor that prescribed nearly anything I asked him for.  Valium, diet pills...whatever.  Then I hurt my back and got a new doctor who gave me vicodin.  Since then, I have been getting my vicodin monthly from both doctors for six years.

Last month, the pharmacy notified both doctors and when I went in for my usual monthly exam, I found out I was busted.  The doctor gave me a prescription for 30 lorcets and told me to take three then two then one a day.  Last Thursday and Friday, I was down to one and on Saturday, I felt determined enough to not take the last one half lorcet I had.  Now I am on my fourth day without them.

I will never see these drug prescribing doctors again.  I am too embarrassed.

I really don't want to be a slave to vicodin anymore.  I still have one half a lorcet in my wallet.  Please help me get through this.  thanks      
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I am on my fourth day without vicodin.  I was very comforable with seven vics a day. I have been addicted for six years.

I am just trying to find out what to expect as I try to get out of the miserable cycle of vicodin addiction.

Why did I stop?  I got busted by my doctor(s).  For ten years, I've had a doctor that prescribed nearly anything I asked him for.  Valium, diet pills...whatever.  Then I hurt my back and got a new doctor who gave me vicodin.  Since then, I have been getting my vicodin monthly from both doctors for six years.

Last month, the pharmacy notified both doctors and when I went in for my usual monthly exam, I found out I was busted.  The doctor gave me a prescription for 30 lorcets and told me to take three then two then one a day.  Last Thursday and Friday, I was down to one and on Saturday, I felt determined enough to not take the last one half lorcet I had.  Now I am on my fourth day without them.

I will never see these drug prescribing doctors again.  I am too embarrassed.

I really don't want to be a slave to vicodin anymore.  I still have one half a lorcet in my wallet.  Please help me get through this.  thanks      
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After 3 back surgeries in 3 years (the last being a spinal fusion in March), I am addicted to Lorcet, Vicodin, Percs, etc.  It has only been in the past few weeks that I've admitted my addiction to myself and have made a conscious decision that the lifestyle this addiction forces me to lead is NOT for me.  I don't like monkeys on my back and this one has been hanging on for quite a while.  At my peak, I would only eat 8-10 pills per day, but when the script is only for 40 pills and you're calling the doc back in 5-6 days asking for more...  well...  everybody here knows how that goes...  you hold your breath and PRAY the doc refills for you.  EVERYTHING depends on that next refill.  It's ****.  This isn't any way to live.  I'm done with it.  Anyway...  I began detoxing myself last week because I tried "cold turkey" and just couldn't handle it.  I have kids and a job and can't afford the luxury of calling it the "flu" and going to bed.  I am now down to 1 and a half pills a day and I'm dividing them into 2 doses.  The suffering is minimal compared to "cold turkey" and it's something I can live with.  The only thing I can attribute my strength and power to do this is in the power of Jesus.  Once I admitted my addiction to Him and asked Him to overcome it for me, I began to gain strength.  I know there's a lot of work left for me to do MENTALLY, but right now my battle is getting off these pills without feeling the PHYSICAL PAIN.  Once that is under control, I'll be better able to work on the rest.

I can identify with everyone here.  With every posting I read, I saw a little bit of myself in each one.  I imagine that even after I detox ~ maybe for the rest of my life ~ pain killers will be an issue for me.  

I wish the best to everyone here.  May God keep His hand on us all.
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For what it's worth, I think you are right on about going to Jesus with your addiction. It worked for me for many years. Yes, painkillers will always be an issue for you as they have been for me. I'm sorry for being so negetive right now but I am on them right now for legitimate pain and feel like a hypocrite. Ironically, I don't even enjoy being on painkillers right now. I am more concerned with the pain issue. Take care of yourself!
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i have had five days going on six today.  I am really achy.
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I'm really having a rough time here with pain. I have tried to work today but it's like 10 minutes of work and I have to sit down for half an hour. The lorcet I'm taking just isn't working anymore and I'm afraid to call my doctor for anything stronger. So I'm sitting here typing and trying to get my mind off myself for a while. Sometimes life sucks!
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Reply to Dan the counselor.  I desperately need to know how long Vocdin is detectable in the body when routine blood work is being done. I am having surgey in 3 weeks and work-up blood testing in five days.  I have not taken Vicodin for about 4 days but had been taking quite a bit previous to that (about 10-20 per day.)  I agree with you that the issue here is actually quitting not talking about cocktails and how great the stuff feels.  I am in constant pain also and the past five days have been miserable but not so bad as this drug abuse has been on my presonality.  I am worried sick that my doctor will know I've been taking vicodin for my foot problem (that's what the surgery is for) and he hasn't prescribed any for me.  I've been putting off the surgery because of the pre-op blood test for about five months but the pain is too much to bear anymore.  It is also comforting for me to know that I'm not the only "normal" person living a relatively "normal" life carrying around this deep dark secret!  Barbara, or Kaytlin and other professionals, I would really appreciate any info you can give me about the subject!  Also some informative websights.  Thanks so much!
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i am trying to wean off vicodin...i have been taking them on and off for 5 years...i am now on 60 straight days of at least 4 a day...sometimes more....tried cold turkey but ...damn....no way....down to one a day...have 3 left plus 5 codienes and 5 xanax....would love to take all of those at once...but also want to live.....why is something that makes you feel so damn good have to be bad...bummer!!!!!i want to keep eatin them but know i gotta choose between them and my life and family....its just they go with just about anything you do...well,im gonna try this weaning and hopefully it will work......thanks for listening...
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your post is somewhat mystifying. Maybe I'm missing something. As far as I know, pre-op blood work doesn't double as a drug screen. Unless something has changed recently, I can't imagine them even looking for narcotic use. That would be something the doctor would have to explicitly order. Also, why would it be bad for the doc to know that you were using some pain pills you happen to have left from some old illness? What's the big deal?

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Hi All,
I wanted to say hello and how much better I feel in reading your comments.  I now know that I am not alone in this. I would love to write my experiences down when I get the time to, I too have a voice and a story. I am stuck in this "world" I can't tell anyone, not a sole as there is too much risk for me.  So many times have I wanted to go to my MD for help, my friends for support or my boyfriend......but I know that my walls would colapse around me if I did such a thing. I don't know why I am putting it here, but it's a release........thank you! Laura
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Pardon my intrusion, but why don't you folks that are concerned about the tylenol in the pills titrate that part out?  The hydrocodone, oxycodone etc. It's water soluable and the tylenol isn't.  Instruction on how to safely do so are at erowid.org

God Speed
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Pardon my intrusion, but why don't you folks that are concerned about the tylenol in the pills titrate that part out?  The hydrocodone, oxycodone etc. It's water soluable and the tylenol isn't.  Instruction on how to safely do so are at erowid.org

God Speed
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Im new to this site and I really need someone who understands to talk to. The big sensory nerve down the front of my leg was damaged during surgery about 2 years ago. I was unable to walk and in pain like I can't even explaine. I was put on loits of pills lyrica nurontin morpine pills vics perks etc. I  have no issues getting rx's. I get 120 10mg norcos for 20 days. I also get 2 20mg oxycontin per day as well as 5mg oxycodone caps for breakthrough pain ( 60 for 20 days). I also have a friend who gets 100 7.5/500 mg vics per month and she sells them to me for 1$ each. So as you can see I have a real problem. I eat all of them and I am still in pain. I get nerve blocks and physical theripy and I still hurt. mI know that if that many pills are not helping that I don't need them but I ran outb a day or two before I could refill and I felt like I wanted to crawl out of my own skin. I am so afraid of going through that feeling again that I don't want to tell my doc that this isn't working. I feel stuck What am I going to do. These pills and this pain is controlling me. I feel like these damn pills are blackmailing me. I don't even get high from them anymore-most of the time. What am I going to do?
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If you want some help you should start a new question because you posted on a 7 year old post and no one looks at these much. Look forward to seeing your new post.
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Post a new thread as you can see this one started 7 years ago, but, in the meantime......................what are you going to do?   STOP, that is what.    I have the same issue.   In legit pain management for 3 years having access to 180 Norco and 180 vicoprofen a month.     Pff, tell me with my hugely addictive personality I wasn't going to get into trouble eventually!!!

What did I do about it as they were blackmailing me???????    I am on day 8 of a massive taper................from 20 pills a day down to 5.   Today is my day to drop to 4 and a half.

It CAN be done.   I feel so wonderful, so clear headed................................so vivid and totally realize that these stupid pills are the devil himself!

Please, keep posting, how many you take, do you want to taper?   Do you want to ct?

Karen
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Hello all, I am a Police Officer and i too take vicoden everyday for 2 discs that i blew out at work. I have been on Vicoden for a little over a year, I take vicoden ES 4x a day am i addicted?? Who knows but i will tell you one thing, I guarentee that as soon as i get back surgery if it is possible i will stop the Vicoden. In my years as a Law Enforcement Officer i have seen what this stuff does to people in the end (long term) Trust me folks you don't want to go down that road........I have a very addictive personality and i am sure it will be tough to quit when the time comes but i would rather be dead than to end up like some of the people i have dealt with.....I hope all of you who want to quit can find the courage-Strength or whatever you need to kick it...........These will really tear you up long term.....As the Nurse stated above narco pain meds destroy your vitals......Good Luck and God Speed........Paul from Ohio
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