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Vicodin
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Vicodin

Can you become addicted to Vicodin in one week? My doctor put me on it for pain. Because I am sensitive to medications I only take 1/2 in the morning and 1/2 at night. I take Tylenol inbetween. I had what I might call withdrawl (withdrawal) even though I didn't stop taking it. Suffer from depression and would really like to put a stop to the medication if that is what caused it.  My heart felt like it was beating out of my chest, chest pain, body shaking and scared. It lasted about 10 minutes and I felt like I might die. Or , was this a panic attack?
Thanks for your help
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don't mean to minimize what you're experiencing, but what you describe sounds closer to some kind of panic attack than to any conventional narcotic withdrawal symptoms. You'll need to take a lot more Vicodin on a daily basis for, gosh, AT LEAST a week before you would likely experence any kind of true withdrawal symptoms. I think your discomfort is coming from something else. Are you using any other drugs that could be causing you withdrawal or side-effects, alergic (allergic) reactions, etc? What you describe just doesn't sound like withdrawal. YOu haven't used enough of the Vicodin contantly enough or long enough to develop a dependency, either psychologically or physiologically.
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Why would you even posting on the addiction forums after using Vicodin for so short a time?  There must be some underlying issues here other than Vicodin abuse/withdrawal problems.  Perhaps you could elaborate?  J.B.
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JB and Patrick are absolutely right,  they have been through alot with their addiction and know what they are talking about. 1/2 vic in the morning and at night for one week would not cause a withdrawal.  It sounds like you have had some experience with withdrawal in the past?  alot of people that do not have an addiction problem would not even think about withdraw after taking such a small amount.   I have seen "normal" people quit taking vicodin at a much higher dose and never look back, they had said they just didn't feel good and never associated anything with withdrawal. You say you are sensitive to medication?  has any other med you have taken produced the same kind of effect?  are you on anything else and have you ever had a panic attack before?  sorry for all the questions but like JB mentioned above, could you elaborate some more re: this subject    cindi
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NO,NO and heres another one,its also called NO!,quite simple really ,~STOP". putting psychologically disturbing Psychoactive CHEMICALS(the ignorant call them drugs,the complete MORONS call the Medications)into your body,ONLY USE--exercise,fresh air, good food, love?(uh whats that?.............fill in rest yourself)),friends,sex;if you can get it!? (most MEN(Bastards) cannot when "THEY" want!),unless you happen to be servicing a  ***** on "HEAT')check out female physiology,amazing stuff man).Life is a sweet cruel torture learn to relish its UPS and DOWNS.other-wise,even young old men know!!!!! "only the trully `BRAVE` kill themselves".
Population YEAR 2001(PLanet EARTH;Clustret 2,4-orion,galactic frodert 56 sectortiat:345.0000012/0002001) now  6 000 000 000 HUMANS and rising rapidly,do you feel essential for the betterment of HUMANITY?,if not make way for those thay do.
you have got to be CRUEL to be KIND(in the LONG RUN).
FM44 if you understand why you hide your identity behind this "TAG"(handle)you know more than you need to SURVIVE,no pleasures guaranteed.JUST SURVIVAL.
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Hey Spook, what is your deal? This person obviously has concerns about his using. I know that EVERYONE on this board thinks that you are insiteful and cute. Personally I find your comments to be disturbing! What the HELL are you talking about? From what I understand you have this entire board believing that you are the ****! Hey, more power to you! There are alot of people out there (including me) who needs help. What is with the comment "only the truly brave kill themselves". Dude, I don't care what ANYONE says, You are whacked! I guess you like it that way. Do you get off on these weird comments that you make? Earths population? I mean, come on! Obviously your mind is very twisted! I just hope that just because you use big words that everyone doesn't take you seriously! I am not deflecting any anger towards you. I am just concerned that the wrong person is going to listen to you and do something foolish. MANY people on this board are EXTREMLY helpful. I came to this board about a year ago and have been recieving help ever since. You on the other hand can just go on "entertaining" people all you want. I know that I will not listen to ANY of your views! It's a shame that people BELIEVE everything they read. Don't even bother responding to me as I will NEVER read anything you have to say....

TO EVERYONE ELSE...
I am entitled to my own opionion. Don't take what I have to say about "spook" as a reflection on you. Chances are if you are reading this then you have helped me very much. For that I am forever greatful! Many people come here for help. I am one of them. Remember we we don't need a false resume to impress one another. WE ARE ALL EQUAL!!!
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Wrong again CHAD(from Philly) /you will read with much interest,many more ~"THINGS"~ I write(do not try to fight it,it is bigger than both of us) mainly `entertainment` as you say! especially my reply to Debra.
"DO NOT TAKE LIFE TOO SERIOUSLY, YOU WILL NEVER GET OUT OF IT ALIVE".
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Are you on any Antidepressants?Yes/No,if so name it/them.

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Chad (from Philly)this may clarify an anniliate your complete naivity of the destruction of our planet and how others are aware and react to it,or maybe "OXYCODONE" and "GIRLFRIENDS" is all your conscience wants to take on, in life, right now?.
What did I REALLY mean by "only the brave kill themselves"do you know?,am I starting to believe an OXYCODONE JUNKY?(sorry that hurt) and doubt my sanity or belief in `real` Humans and their compassion? **** NO!!!!!!!! you get real baby and FAST.Trig is a beautiful-HUMAN.
READ a real persons views on this predicament.
Not that you are not real,actual I think your unreal,cool dude.

{ABSTRACT}
Comment By: trig on Sunday, March 18, 2001

thanks spook and JB for your comments. I guess i lead a kind of a double life because I hold down my job and am well respected for what I do. At the same time, at the end of the day I come home or go to the pub and get as drunk as a skunk and have done for years. Various doctors have told me to take it easy on the grog over the years, but I haven't changed my ways. I love drinking as I love smoking, and it seems to me that either the drink or the smokes will get me in the end earlier than I might otherwise shuffle off this mortal coil, but it seem to worry me. Does it change as you get older?

Part of the reason why I don't worry about whether I cark it or not is that I think there are just too many people. We are buggering up the environment at a hell of a rate- what will it be like for your kids and grandkids with heaps of pollution, loss of land through sea rises, a vast divide between our fellows in Africa or China in terms of wealth and education - these things seem to me disastrous and something I do not want to be part of. Does this seem intelligible or not? I am sorry if they are not, but they are sincerely held views.

cheers
trig

My reply to her gave HER great comfort,I shall not include it as you seem to need to learn the hard way.
You probably think Michael Jackson is a "Wacko" too JUST because you do NOT understand him.I do not think(actually ,I know) you do not even understand yourself.So why should anybody bother.
All I KNOW is you will go back to drugs and I am correct in everthing I say,keep posting,you may provide some "Entertainment yourself".

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Only a true straight-edge fag, wouldn't actually help someone who needed genuine help.  Try giving some helpful advice.  Mine is for you to get a life.
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Ok ,I got a life now,anything else I can do for you(Genius)?maybe a bit of anger management counciling.Free of course.
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Dude,  I agree with Chad from philly.  You are wacked.  What are you doing on here anyways?  These people are on here because they have a problem in their life, they probably did a search on google.com for addiction, found this website and posted their comments.  You act like the smartest person in the world, you know what my assumption about you is? You read this board, do searches and then copy and paste from whatever you read.  Nuerophysiopharmacologist or not, I'm a reallifenonphilosophysingaddictwholikestotalktopeopleandgivethem realhelpologist.  People know the world is being destroyed, but for the amount of people who are doing it, there are just as many saving it. Your hypocrisy runs high my friend.  You think that computer you're typing on is helping the environment?  The drugs you supposedly study, help the economy?  No they are destroying earth as well. If you can't help these people, just read what they have to say.  What drugs are you on?  Haven't heard much about you.  All you do is tell people they're wrong, the world is ending and then get mad at everybody else because they don't understand you.  See the thing is with me, I do understand everyword you type, but you should be on a Greenpeace message board instead of an addiction board.  Think about it man.

Chad B
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Ok......When I first started reading Spooks posts...I was very concerned. I also, questioned his reasons for posting here. If you have read any of my posts addressed to Spook in days past, then you know that I am a Biblebelievingguidedspririthelpingothersologist....(how's that Chad???) And it wasn't untill I got into it w/ Spook over his beliefs and mine.....that I truly got back into my spirituality again.  My point is: he does help some here.  Maybe not all.
He had his share of problems in life and we all do.  Hey..that's why we are here.  
Anyway....I am definately for freedom of speech...and Don't want anyone bashing my opinions either...so I'll just leave it at that.
And Spook, My friend...Your showing your ego.  LOL...Just playing the Devil's advocate....I mean Angel...lol
Just thought I'd play referee here....Hey Brighty.....that's you, sister!
lol

Peace Yall!
Annie
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Ok Guys, I guess it's time for the ladies to step in,  I like to think of myself as having a certain degree of intelligence being that i did graduate from nursing school, but when spook first started posting I really didn't understand a drop of what he was saying, but now that I have come to "know him, I know he Is real, he does have emotions,feelings and yes  YIKES!!! EVEN Compassion.  I know I have said this before, part of recovery is openmindedness.  We do not always have to agree but we can learn alot of things from the most unexpected places/people.  Annie said she has found her spirituality. I have lost alot of things over the past 3 months, and these people that post here, Spook included have helped me through the hardest part of life that I have ever had to endure.  Even people saying things that I did not like or agree with, I did find the willingness to listen and if I choose to, throw it out or keep it in my head for future use.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, freedom of speech Yada, yada, yada, so I am exercising my freedom as you did...We, Annie, myself and Brighty  (you ladies don't mind if I speak for you do ya?) feel like we are "family" here, I know guys don't think like that but I guess we may feel it is our duty as females to help keep the peace (some may say it is being nosy, I say it is "being helpful".  Spook is really an Ok guy, if you keep an openmind and maybe think of him as entertaining if you want, but he is really a "fun" encyclopedia especially for a lostherspiritualitybackslidinggalfromohio like me...Ok Annie, how did yall like that one  LOL   Love ya annie    Cindi
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lmao......you crack me up chick, and you may speak for me anytime!!!!!lol

Love Ya!

Annie
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Do you feel all the tension in here.  It's getting pretty heated all the way down these threads.  It's not even summertime yet.

What's going on>>>?????
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pardon me spook, but what the hell are you taking about? Are you experimenting with something? Your post is really odd and out of character. You seem to have access to some exotic substances. If you're on something, let us in on the joke. Your post is bizarre, man! What are you thinkng? For one thing, regardless of what it's supposed to mean, it comes across as a little hostile, if I can even make that much sense of it. Speak English. Let us in on whatever you're on about ... a mind like yours is, as they say, a terrible thing to waste, and you're wasted, buddy. No offense meant -- just a word from a fellow traveller ...

I know, you'll probably reply that you're stone cold sober and it's me that's f-up. Whatever. But your post is flat strange, spook, that's all there is to it. Level out, man!
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It is important for everyone to realize that Tony Soprano is not really the head of a crime family out of Newark. It is really Uncle Junior who runs the show. You see Tony Is kind of the boss but not really. What about Michael imperioli? Everyone knows that he plays Christopher on the show, but does he. Let's all think about him for a minute. He does drugs right....but he isn't gay............speaking of gayity......what about the hit showtime series Queer As Folk? Are those guys really hot or am I turning gay? Do I use because I might be gay? Is my relationship with Debra just a cover up? I don't know........Then again when I look at Adrieana (christopher's girlfrien) I get all worked up! Her real name is Drea de Matteo. I she Itialian? Why did she stop being a hostess? Owwwwww **** all of these thoughts running through my head make me want to get high. By the way......

DO ANY OF YOU KNOW WHAT THE **** I AM TALKING ABOUT?
HAVE I HELPED ANY OF YOU WITH THIS SENCELESS PHYCO-BABBLE?
I THINK NOT!!!

DO YOU GET MY POINT???
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You're a sick one you are !!!
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I just want to thank everybody for your replies and contributions I have learnt much from your emotional reactions.And will try to be more reasonable and compassionate in future posts( ie FM44,etc),its all part our self development/research project and rebuilding of Ego study,in fact I even nearly got angry at some responses myself(even though in this capacity ,I am not spook),they seemed to be aimed at doing nothing more than hurting me.If you can see it in your heart to forgive me(spook and the researcher/s),I would feel a little better.
Their is not mean`t to be a social mask here,I have always found people to either love or hate me,I am not normal(in fact I do not even exist),this we know.
If one wants to learn how to open up a person and see what is really there, sometimes the tools we use seem unethical,but we need to understand the Psychophathology behind the genesis off "Addiction"and therefore must STUDY addicts.
I have made myself(spook)and an addict on many drugs to find out what it is all about and a possible cure,my mistake is to think my cure applies to everybody.Unfortunately we all have pain and for each it is unique and thus different,how does one get under the lid of the subconscious to explore the underlying Neurosis?/depression,etc,antagonistic emotive methods seem to work but I will use them with appropriate discretion in future as many are not yet ready to face their REAL selves.

   yours sincerely
        
          Luke.G.EDWARD  (creator of spook)
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Cindy and Annie,please do not feel like I have used you,I think you would like the Luke as well,I feel bad because you protected spooks delicate Ego and both of you are such special kind intelligent "WOMAN",I know you may be confused now,but the person typing now FEELS for both of you very much.What difference does it make if you do not know which  of the two it is.You two make life worth living,In my Humble opinion rare birds indeed.
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You sound like a real sour puss,maybe a stroke or 2 will make you bring up those fur balls.
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I am experimenting with your brain Patrick.
You do not know my Character.
Exotic women yes,exotic drugs no.
It means something different to everybody.
No hostility intended.
Bizzare,why thankyou for the compliment.
I speak Ausralian,sorry if you do not understand.
I was sobre at time of post.
Occassionaly I get very,very wasted.(LSD and ibogaine,is that exotic enough)
I think you need to travel a little further,then you may understand me.do not bring any personal baggage.no "body" required!
No offence taken.
I do not think you are ****** up,i think I am an absolute fruitcake.Sweet and nutty,very tasty indeed.
level,level?nah a little roller coaster ride never hurt anybody.
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*Quote:-"See the thing is with me, I do understand *{"everyword"} you type, but you should be on a Greenpeace message board instead of an addiction board. Think about it man."END QUOTE.

I have thought about it and I am `considering` it(remember,it is my choice,not yours), as Addiction cures? seem to be 90% of the time a waste of effort(recidivism),I think the environment needs more help,than you,thanks for the advice.Although as an honorary member of the Australian Institute of Physics,I may pursue my real passion and explore other energy sources for this planet instead,I have only one light on in my house at the moment to save the planet a bit.I ride a bike and do not use a car,How is your Hypocrasy going?.or are you talking about drugs again?.
Just curious,you say you understand every`word`,but are you intelligent enough to understand them the the context of the sentences they construct as concepts?.
Please explain the Pylogenetic basis as to the origan and anatomical location of the VTA within the Mesenchalon and how it came to evolve before the Neocortex.
Seems you are so smart you may even solve the which came first,chicken or egg Question.
Or am I being condescending and presumptious?.
No offence intended,it is essential.  


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You do not need to add an apology to the end of your comments. Spook does not mind adding his own brand of commentary to his posts and neither should you. You were being honest about your observations. I don't think most of us really understand everything Spook interjects. I'm sure FM44 is disturbed to get such an unusual reply. The fact is really that NOBODY took him/her very seriously. My observation of course. How old are you? My son still lives in Philly and is very close with an Adrianna... but she's not his girlfriend. Are the Gambino's still in charge there ? :-)) Have a great day. Blessings to you and Debra !! Love, Brighty
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Sorry for a comment I made to Chad from Philly... that nobody took FM44 seriously.... I went back and read and found that I must have read something incorrectly. Sorry... I was wrong.
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Hi... I was intrigued by your post to Patrick... you do Ibogaine?? I guess it's intended as a humor but since there is much lost on a board where we cannot put facial expressions and voice inflections, I cannot be sure if you were kidding with him. You had told me you had not tried Ibogaine... that's what I uderstood. I hardly think it goes well with LSD.

What does FM44 mean? Was there some sort of revelation in that moniker that caused you to respond as you did ? You went far beyond the likely expectation of FM44 in your reply. There is nothing unusual about a person totally unfamiliar with the effects of Rx drugs to be concerned about this reaction. It seemed to be a legit question followed by a rather extreme comment about hiding behind his/her "tag".

I find you to be very strange which is complimentary if you are confident about who you are.... I do not hurt and attack... at least I try not to... and I am able to accept you as you are mainly because I am familiar with the very brilliant AND the very drug altered. Most people in those categories are very hard to understand and even harder to like.  And as usual with prodigious brilliance, the everydayness of normal functionings and control of normal emotions is very far behind the intellectual abilities... plain english... highly smart people are social misfits in many cases... couple that with years of drug use and .... well .... I think I may say the wrong thing which is indeed not intended.

I was extremely moved by your comment that you became an addict to find the cure. That you are a survivor of this undertaking is a God send, as you yourself attest to. I wanted to be an addict also to see if I could find the cure.... I realized how totally unrealistic this was, since a 5mg valium puts me on my ass... but I do understand the motivation. I think that we both have found the answer via different routes... the cure is within each of us. It has taken me years to understand that. Still I am here asking questions day after day. Maybe your insights would be more appreciated if you scaled them down to a more earthly level.

Both Chads were totally down to earth in their observations, but they did not attack you personally, they attacked( if you could even call it that) your replies, your methods of dealing with the thoughts and feelings expressed here, your use of terminology, and the ... well... the seemingly large size of your professed small ego. You are not dealing with physicists or absent minded professor types... just real people who are hurting alot and looking for direct understandable answers. There are different kinds of "smart" in this world. I would not want a physics professor to build me a house.

As you see and know from your own experience, that addiction has many faces and many stages from inception to choosing wholeness. I am wondering if you are anywhere near totally and fully committing to not putting anymore chemicals in your body for either personal or experimental reasons. This is an honest question that I am asking. My opinion is that if you are still using that your views are colored by rollercoaster emotions which your intellect is not able to overcome.

I am also impressed by your simple lifestyle. True wealth is learning what we can live without. As I scale down materially in my life I am getting more content. I am not my worldly goods. But I don't think I could scale down quite as much as you have !!!! :-))) God bless you. Love, Brighty
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Spook made a good point when he said that it's impossible to abuse a drug.  How do you abuse a drug?  Beat it with a hammer and scream at it?  The point is that we are abusing ourselves by using drugs to cover up some underlying problems.  Yeah, my response to FM44 was a bit flippant.  Maybe I forget at times that some people are scared to death of taking pain meds, thanks to all the media hype.  My own wife and brother-law are like that.  I was simply asking why a person who was taking 1 Vicodin per day for one week would be posting on the addiction forum.  It took me years to even discuss my own addiction, afterall.  Oh well, that's my agry venting for this day.  Take care and be well!  J.B.
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I thought Spook was a doctor or something. He replied to a post of mine.....he sounded a little out there. I couldn't understand what he was talking about, I thought it was me that was nuts!
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I guess I, having been a reader and fan of such writers like W.Burroughs, H.S.Thompson etc., haven't had much of a problem with spooks posts. It's all relevant yet irrelevant at the same time. Much like most of what goes on in life. He's putting down his thoughts in a stream of consciousness way that some us can identify with. It doens't mean I understand it, any more than I understood Naked Lunch. But it is what it is. Take what you can out of it (IF you can) and leave the rest. The suicide comment holds odd truth. As a society we see suicide for what it is and for what it isn't. It must take incredible strength and determination to actually go through with suicide. I myself am much too weak and afraid to ever attempt it seriously. Now, if you read between the lines, spook isn't saying that the "strong" that commit suicide are "correct", just "strong" in their commitment to do something so final. If someone really takes that seriously and offs themselves, well, it didn't take too much for them and it was gonna happen probably more sooner than later. I know it all comes off as gibberish. But really, take it for what it is and leave the rest or better yet, don't read it. I don't think that he is trying to incite anything more than just getting his thoughts off his chest. He chose here to do it. I don't think anyone needs to spend anymore time analyzing it or criticizing or defending it. It is what it is. Let's get back to why we're all here to begin with.

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I really do not find any of this 'amusing'
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Either do I Dee........

Brighty, I am 28, Debra is 26...No the Gambino's are not in charge here. At the moment nobody really is. Joey Merlino went to jail last year along with the head of the Pagen Motorcycle club. They are both great guys if they are reading this!!! Brighty, we feel great and love hearing from people like yourself. We never would have dreamed that the straight life could be so cool. Talk soon, Chad
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I don't much care for it either.  I just got back from the gas station(truck stop)where I get caught up on all the latest gossip in town.  Last night DOT officers pulled a semi over for routine inspections and found a two liter pop bottle full of Vicodin in the cab of the truck. That is baffeling! How many Vikes could you stuff into a bottle that size? They suspect the pills came from Mexico. The driver is facing some serious hard time like 5 to 25 years. We have 500,000 registered truck drivers in this state and God only knows how many of them are into illegal narcotics trade. My post has nothing to do with this thread but I thought I'd change the subject a bit.  J.B.
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I agree with Dee, this is not really amusing, We all have our "quirks" Spook/Luke or whoever is very different, as each one of us are all individuals, I don't think anybody here has really intended to hurt or degrade anybody else, we all know how spook is and I think (but I don't want to speak for other people)
for the most part we have accepted him for just being Spook.  I, myself have always taken things personally and have worked really hard to accept people for who they are.   I don't like conflict, I never have and I suppose it stems back to when I was very young and my parents would fight until I would run and hide, therefore, I usually avoid it until I really become angry and blow up.  Maybe that is wrong but...that is me.  I respect each and everyone of you on this forum, Chad, I respect you and Debra for what you have done with yourselves, you were able to see your addiction and are working to put it to rest, Brighty,Spook, Patrick, Annie,JB, you guys know how much I love and adore you, I found this forum by accident and it was God working in his mysterious way because I found you guys during the most horrendous time in my life, a time of such sadness and pain that if it had not been for your help and words of wisdom I would have been stuck where I was months back.  Please?  Can we put this all behind us and go back to giving each other the support that has held this forum together?   We need each other and it is a fact that one addict helping another is the best medicine, with the exception of the few that are not addicts but have had addiction touch their lives in a very close and personal way.  We can't change anything about anyone, just accept them, I have always said that variety, the spice of life is what makes our world go round.  I love you all   Cindi
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Read in its entirety ... can anyone tell me what spook is saying? He has already established his intelligence and erudition in other threads ... but this one ... anyone ever read Finnegan's Wake by James Joyce? Where a single paragraph may contain references and decodings related to texts spanning contemporary to antiquarian works, from the Bible to the necronomicon?

I say, spook, speak plainly if you can. I'd like to understand what you're saying. When I do, I usually learn something interesting. Take me along with you. I feel left behind
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You are absolutely right...can I be really honest with you?  I thought at first it was just me that was having a hard time understanding what Spook was saying/talking about,  so I just went along for the ride and "pretended" I understood because I have always thought of myself as having some degree of intelligence but I felt completely stupid sometimes. I mean sometimes, ok alot of times I just sit and look at the screen and say what the hell is he talking about.  Other times I feel so dumb that I just go on to another post..  Now I am finding out that not many people do understand him and I feel alot better now, I agree, that if he would express himself in a
kinder gentler way I/we would get more out of what he is saying but....I don't think we are going to change him...so, I'll just continue to sit and look at the screen and say ...yeah, ok whatever,,,I knew that.I don't know why he says the things he says, strange, but again this is Spook.  I do understand though what you and Brighty are talking about.  It's not that I don't understand, i just don't like to see anybody hurt someone's feelings.  I know you are just as knowledgeable (spelling) in your field as Spook is in his field but maybe he really doesn't know how to explain things in a way the humans can understand, you have a great way with words,so does Brighty, I can understand what you are saying without having to sit there and say HMMMMMMMMMM.  I do know also, and I think someone may have mentioned this above but people with a very high intelligence level are a bit eccentric, quirky?  (sorry spook) and me,,,,I never have to worry about that.....Love to all   cindi
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Hmmmmmmm..... :-)) I've come to the conclusion this is one thread I should not have participated in. It is totally unproductive when we are trying to be logical about the esoteric. You are logically kind and compassionate and humanly down to earth. So is spook.... after he has given us a dissertation on the essence of essence :-)) I agree with Jimenez.... he is who he is and now that we know what to expect perhaps we should just ignore that which evades us and comment on that which we understand. I think those of us who have been here for awhile are tolerant.... some of the most disparaging remarks came from names I have never seen before... and we will probably not see again. After reviewing this thread I decided that everyone was right and no body was wrong... some expressed legitimate annoyances and others of us walked on eggs trying to be diplomatic.  OK Spook .... now maybe you can just be Luke for a while !!!! Anyway Cindi, you are an angel... I hope you are finding some comfort in recent days. Thank you for all the positive sentiments you offer to all of us. Sometimes I forget the reason I began coming to this board .... to deal with my daughter's addiction... I am just grateful that I have a measure of peace and can take time to indulge in nonsense such as this thread !! Love, Brighty
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I did not think you were flippant.... it's an open forum and perhaps you hit the nail on the head... you have particular insights that I could not begin to understand. Love to Marty... how is she doing with treatment ??? It's nearly April so I thought perhaps the worst is behind her. God bless you both. Love, Brighty
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Why do you make so much sense ????? :-))) Thanks for the balance!!

Also, thank you for all the kindness in various threads and your thoughtful inquiries about my daughter. She is happy, lovely, whole and got her one year clean medallion from NA a week or 2 ago. She has A's in school, is filled with life and always laughing, singing and being a normal girl. She is interested in fishing, boys, sports, and will be buying her first car here anytime soon. She is making up for the 3 years of darkness and is very close to God. We have our moments... you know.... mother, daughter stuff. She is still on house arrest, which I am not embarassed to say, has her dad and I very happy. We can sleep at night for awhile. I think you understand. I am waiting for the day when you are able to get your treatment of choice..... we will all be hanging in there with you. We're gonna miss Patrick though !!! :-)) Love, Brighty
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I've worked in the calif. prison system for over 25 years. During this time, I had the displeasure of knowing Charles Manson for a period of two years. He talks in riddles and it takes the normal person weeks to understand what he is really saying, which ususally is nothing at all significant. I've met alot of very decent convicts, and alot of the worst in mankind. SPOOK, you are doing nothing more than playing a game to amuse yourself at the expense of others. I didn't say that you were a sick one because you upset me. I said it because it's true. Oh, and SPOOK, go **** Yourself. Maybe someday you'll get the help you need.
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Comment By: Frank Lee to Everyone sans 1. on Tuesday, March 27, 2001:-

"The best way to deal with a pest like mcgill is to ignore him - that usually upsets the attention seeking, immature posters".

Comment By:Spooks assistant/research Psychologist, Dr M. Agelleo:
"I think this applies to pests like Bookitty as well".
                                        

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This is what it means to me.

<a href="http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/docops/fm44-100/fm441_4.htm" target="_new">FM44</a>


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It is 2 am here in Ohio, I have been battling pneumonia for a few days and also going to work much against my doc's wishes, but you have to know my boss to understand why,  I am sitting up coughing my lungs out and thought I might as well jump online, once again Brighty you have made me feel so much better.  you know what happens when you are trying to sleep and you can't, all the crazy thoughts come into your head, My sister and I are going to start cleaning out my mom's house, I feel like I am invading in her private life.  Anyway, thank you so much for all of your kind words. You are such a special person, I know what you mean about this thread and you are right when you say that we who have come to know spook know what to expect and we are tolerant.  He is who he is and that is what makes him Luke/spook.  We are generally more accepting of spook. Te need for any of the vulgarities that are thrown out to spook such as the post above this one, There is no need for this and in my opinion that post referring to charles manson should be deleted instead of the ones that have come up missing, People here have like you said have shared legitimate annoyances, there is nothing wrong with talking about what upsets you but for comments like this, really does not represent any type of recovery or maturity...Everyone on this forum has something special to offer, you my dear Brighty seem to be right around the corner beaming down rays of sunshine on my otherwise rainy day, and you are such a caring person, you and your precious daughter deserve nothing but happiness, she is so very lucky to have such a wonderful mom, luckily I had "clean time" to spend with my mom before she died.  God Bless you Brighty and maybe we can come up with another subject......Love, cindi
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You are quite a guy,  you also brighten up my rainy days by just being you......Love cindi
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Thankyou,I feel I need your support,You know,I feel,you are really perfect as a person.At being yourself,and putting yourself in other peoples shoes.
I know I have said some silly things in the past,like I need a woman with an IQ above 170,but one just like you would be more than I could ever dare to ask god for.
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I will `try` to leave out the Neurochemical/Anatomical(and Terminology) theories and FACTS behind God,Soul,Spirit,Consciousness,Addiction,etc and use plain english,heres some examples.Chadder had a Car accident and has seriously damaged his Spine,and wants to know about addiction as he is on very strong Opioids.
Annie is in serious Pain,but for some(god only knows)reason cannot get a suitable supply of Opioids.I have included resonses from 2 people to verify my integrity,One is a Mental Health "Professional",thats Maria.
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Comment By: spook to Chadder on Tuesday, March 13, 2001

You are lucky person who have misfortune.A lot of people have Addictive personalities,and escalate their dose and duration of Narcotic Analgesic past that needed to stop physical pain,they are not mentally ill or anything,it is normal and natural for humans to seek pleasure.
You do not seem that interested in Opioid euphoria?,you could have stayed on the morphine,you can get hold of lots of Opioids and choose not to.This is also normal,as Opioids are not universally addictive,I am not too bad either,I like the euphoria but get sick(bored) of the feeling and end up going straught,many times I have done this,even when I am using Opioids and physically and psychologically dependent on them,I do not feel addicted or out of control.I choose when to start and when to stop and never complain!.So it is a complex issue,we are all very different in our psychological response to Opioids and Life for that matter,some peoples NEEDS seem to be greater than others,due to Genetic,social,adaptive,responsive mechanisms of coping with fear,stress,arousal,etc,etc,their requirements for god,wives,husbands,mothers,friends,fathers,children,OPIOIDS,etc, far exceed others and yet some bravely do it alone without any such LUXURIES.
The Doctors are doing a VERY good Job,on one hand the patients demands an Opioid because of pain and the Doctor feels compelled to relieve their patients pain,on the other hand they have a hoard of patients whom they know are not in much pain anymore but keep coming back for more.Then they have to read about how the Opioid wrecked the persons life(on forums like this) and that they cannot get off it,etc,etc.Do we blame the Doctor,Opioid or Patient or society OR all,maybe combinations of the above,in my humble opinion the patient is responsible for the escalation of dosage and the refusal to go through the Withdrawals and feel good again,so they spend their lives trapped.Some even blame the addictive nature of the drug,as opposed to their own addictive personality.It is getting to the point that Doctors are relucant to prescribe Opioids to anybody even those in obvious severe pain because so many people simply `refuse` to stop using them once prescribed,they say they have an illness called addiction and that the Opioid gave it to them,but in the end it boils down to going through the pain of Withdrawal and reclaiming your life.My advice to people is stop complaining,get off the Opioids if you do not "NEED" them,and get on with your life,because people who are in actual REAL PHYSICAL PAIN are now having problems getting pain relief,because of your ACTIONS.Their are therapies, antidepressants,neuroleptics,antianxiety agents and a host of more appropriate medications and treatments for people with addictive personalities ie borderline personality disorders or Neurotic/Psychotic disorders who are self medicating with Opioids.

Comment By: maria to Doc Luke on Tuesday, March 13, 2001



Excellent post, my friend. Maria

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Comment By: spook to Annie on Wednesday, March 28, 2001



Their must be some reason why you are being saved from addiction at the cost of experiencing great pain,I do not want to get all spooky again,but as you believe in a Higher power and opioids in large doses BLOCK contact with God,it all seems so clear.
A friend of mines, mother, recently died,she was very god worshipping and even when in utter pain refused Opioids,she suffered terribly but died in peace as we all do.
It was not a part of her religion to avoid Opioids,she just knew from past experience that they attenuate consciousness and thus communication with God via your soul.
What I think is that your pain will eventually stop and you may never know how much God has helped you.
Believing in god does not in anyway avoid a life time of Opioid addiction.
If your pain was Chronic and (never to end),then its time for you to start seeking Palliative care,but remember when you start Opioids your Spiritual life is put on hold and it seems so important to you.
This may sound absurd but I have been through hell,and on the other side I found Heaven,whereas from a chemical heaven all I could see was a hell.
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Comment By: pelle1985 on Wednesday, March 28, 2001{ABSTRACTED}
......................
"Spook speaks very eloquently of the drugs acting as a barrier to God and all things spiritual. . .and indeed this is very apt. Not only a barrier to these, but to loved ones, family, friends, and everything that may be valuable in life. My addiction robbed me of so many things it is difficult to say what hurts the most, but I think that living in the absence of love hurt perhaps most of all -- for God, others, and certainly myself"........................





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Comment By: hedhurtz on Wednesday, March 28, 2001

"I thought Spook was a doctor or something. He replied to a post of mine.....he sounded a little out there. I couldn't understand what he was talking about, I thought it was me that was nuts!"
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Now apparently hedhurtz,thought I sounded a little "out there" in my response,now I ask all of you to PLEASE read what he/she is doing to themselves,and,after reading ask yourself,now that we have been "in there",that is in hedhurtz`s mind,do any off you understand why he cannot understand simple things.
You tell me who is going "nuts" and ask yourself why he/she has taken the spooks insane i`m fine defence.Whats really going on in that mind of yours hedhurtz(suicidal ideation,confusion?),think about it and you may even learn to help yourself one day.also notice Cindy read my reply and did not see anthing obviously "out there",if you cannot trust people like Cindy you are all DOOMED.    
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HERE IT IS IN BLACK AND WHITE.
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Comment By: HedHurtz on Friday, March 09, 2001



Hi, I'm new here and I've been reading posts that have "peaked" my interest(so to speak). I take Fioricet for migraines, I get 100 a mos. from one doc and sometimes I get more from outside sources. I take about 10 a day until I run out, then I feel like HELL until my next Doc's visit (unless I can get more). What takes the edge off of Butalbital addiction? I find myslf drinking. Can anyone give me advice? I tried to wean off and switch to other migraine meds, but NOTHING else works. I have tried everything from Imitrex injections to Zomig.......A to Z of sorts.
Thanks

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Comment By: spook to Hedhutz on Sunday, March 11, 2001



Basically you are addicted to a Barbiturate,so any other barbiturate will "take the edge" off the withdrawal symptoms and more!,Alcohol is cross tolerant to Barbiturates so they will attenuate the Withdrawals,Of course you know not to mix the two in large doses if you do ,you die.the end.(Jimi Hendrix style)
A strong Benzodiazepine will also suffice,I recommend Klonopin.
You may of had no idea what you where addicted to,this is a serious drug,and you will have to think about what you are doing.
First and most important Barbiturate detox should be done In hospital from large doses such as you are taking,lest you get more than a head ache,but if you insist on messing around and continuing to use/abuse,best to just use alcohol inbetween scripts,but never combine it with your medication.
I am in Australia so do not have a list of brand name Barbs avail in USA,besides they are hard to get anywhere,you may have to settle for valium,Xanax,mogadon,etc, you know Benzodiazepine Sedative hypnotics(insomnia),`antianxiety` agents,ask your Doctor/s for some sleeping pills or something for Anxiety.
Because of your enormous tolerance you will end up with a Benzo Habit as well,in fact you are in deep ****,take care.

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Comment By: HedHurtz to Spook on Sunday, March 11, 2001



Well thanks for the advice, I guess?
I am a Chronic Headache sufferer and Yes, I know that I'm in deep ****. I don't drink when I have my meds. I actually do have a Xanax script, which once again, I only use when I'm out of meds. This really sucks! I have been suffering for 17 yrs with this and I guess basically, "I'm ******".....
Maybe I should just end it all!

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Comment By: HedHurtz to whoever on Sunday, March 11, 2001



PS: Doctors never tell you about addiction as long as they solve the problem of the day!

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Comment By: cindi to Headhurtz on Sunday, March 11, 2001



Hi, did you ever think about see an addiction specialist, c onsider a professional detox clinic? As spook mentioned barb withdrawal is dangerous so maybe consider the safest method. And talking about ending it all? Why would yo do that when there is help available..it is a matter of humbling yourself and asking for that 4 letter word "HELP". Hope this helps a bit good luck, take care cindi

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Comment By: spook to HeadHurtz on Tuesday, March 13, 2001



Sorry for being so Factual and unemotional,please keep posting if you are not ready to DETOX under professional supervision as an inpatient,it helps talking about these things,It is difficult to stop the combination of drugs you are taking because Headache is also a withdrawal symptom,so you must feel trapped and in terrible pain,make sure you do not to your doctor/s about your excessive use(they will cut off your supply),as you are taking dosages that will not alleviate anything more than the Withdrawal symptom headaches you are getting.They are combining with the actual migraine and thus the terrible pain,Do you ever take your medication for pleasure,are you abusing it?.

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Comment By: HedHurtz to All who responded on Tuesday, March 13, 2001



I know the harsh realities of my addiction, unfortunately knowing them is NOT the issue for me. I started taking the Fioricet about 6 years ago (or so) after I was finally diagnosed with Chronic Headache Syndrome. I have seen at least 15 docs and have taken for headaches:
Imitrex (injections, nasal & tabs),Cafergot,Toradol,Midrin,Tyl #3,Darvocet,Zomig,Maxalt,Fiorinal w/cod.
I'm sure there's more.....
After an allergic reaction to codeine, I tried Fioricet. It worked! By then, I was IN HEAVEN....A MED THAT WORKED! If he would have told me to eat sh#t on a stick, I would have. This doctor that has been scripting me this is one of the best Neurologist/Neurosurgeons in the WORLD. Why wouldn't I trust him. Now I have built up a tolerence!
Here's the deal, I went to see him today and I asked him if there is anything else that I could take for breakthrough headaches, so I wouldn't have to take "so many" fioricet (no, I didn't tell him I take 10 a day)BUT, I did tell him I think I take too many! He told me that 5 or 6 a day is fine, because it's working for me! So, of course, I think "what's 4 more"! I'm so confused. I'm glad I can get this off my chest FINALLY!
THANK YOU

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Comment By: cindi to Hedhurtz on Tuesday, March 13, 2001



I do feel for you, I had suffered from severe headaches a long time ago. I guess I just "outgrew" them.. If your Dr. does not have a problem with you taking 5 or 6 Fioricets a day and you are comfortable with it did you ever think of gradually tapering down to 5 0r 6 a day? This is better than the alternative which is cold turkey unsafely. Are you able to taper them? Are you willing to taper them? You have to make the committment to do it though. Is the medicine really helping your headaches? Like spook said, headaches and withdrawal go hand in hand. Maybe it's re-evaluation time. Just some food for thought. But, I do know what you are going through. Most of us in this forum have been there. It's a hard thing. Good Luck Cindi

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Comment By: spook to Head hurts on Thursday, March 15, 2001



The tolerance is something you can get rid off,but heres the price-`more headaches`,you tried life without drugs,you tried all the drugs and now you have found one that,well used to work sort off,for a while anyway,I will give you the benefit of the any possible doubt and conclude you only used enough to stop the headaches and no more.So one may conclude that you have had all this world can offer you as far as its current medicinal technology goes,and that was temporary relief followed by an exacerbation of initial problem.Now your SPECIALIST would have forseen this,well I would have and I would have told you the facts about the situation you would eventually have to deal with,now given that you would have eaten ****(sorry I left the # out,whoops) on a stick to get pain relief,I think we have already answered that question before even asking it,yes you would have taken the drug knowing the consequences.
Now is the time to find out,what apart from the Barbiturate,Benzodiazepine withdrawals is the reason for the Headaches and this is where our science has failed us miserably,basically most of our drugs relieve the symptoms of our illness`s and do not cure the underlying cause,this is the harsh reality that keeps us humans striving for a better way to deal with what is basically in your case a congenital genetic trait,I presume your Specialist has not found the cause and or cannot fix it?,so far all is fair in love and war,can you see another Neurologist and get the latest most up to date brain imaging tests done and locate the lesion/s and undergo Neurosurgery?while trying your hardest to spiral backward from your drug dependence.or are /is the source/s of your headaches a COMPLETE mystery?.Now you get back on you feet and keep trying,that is all one can do in life,please do not give up,YET,give the medical profession and yourself another chance.

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Posted By: FM44 on Monday, March 26, 2001

"Can you become addicted to Vicodin in one week? My doctor put me on it for pain. Because I am sensitive to medications I only take 1/2 in the morning and 1/2 at night. I take Tylenol inbetween. I had what I might call withdrawl (withdrawal) even though I didn't stop taking it. Suffer from depression and would really like to put a stop to the medication if that is what caused it. My heart felt like it was beating out of my chest, chest pain, body shaking and scared. It lasted about 10 minutes and I felt like I might die. Or , was this a panic attack?
Thanks for your help"

Answer 1,No people usually(well always) never get withdrawal symptoms in less than a week from TINY doses of Hydrocodone(Vicodin),especially when when they have not withdrawn from it in the first place during that week..?
Unless as you say,you are extremely sensitive to Opioids AND their withdrawal symptoms and have taken another drug like an Opioid Antagonist,ie Naltrexone,Naloxone or possibly an Enzyme inhibitor or inducer that causes the drug to be metabalolized more rapidly than usual .
Answer 2,Yes what you desribe is a TYPICAL panick attack and not in any way TYPICAL of or an Opioid(Vicodin)withdrawal symptom.
Answer 3,No I do not have to apologize for my initial response(if one asks a REALLY silly question ,`sometimes` you get a Cryptic Psychoanalytical Paranoid silly answer).

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It just `may` be possible that I have recently tried Ibogaine (in the last week) and did not mix it with LSD.(of course)
I am not going to comment on my "personal" experience as it shed no more light on my inner workings than LSD has already.
although I feel it would be Tolerated much better than LSD by non Psychonauts.(they are people who explore inner space as opposed to astronauts who explore outerspace,although we are often accused of being "out of It",Cosmic etc.
And if anybody is thinking it had anything to do with my Cryptic,Paranoid reply to FM44,the answer is no.
Ibogaine is good,user friendly(in mod doses) very therapeutic.
takes you places quickly,but slowly enough to interpret in a meaningfull way.

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I hope things have settled down here again and we can get back on track. It seems that certain people like to visit here and stir up a lot of trouble, then they absent themselves for a few weeks. I've seen that sort of behaviour in AA and NA meetings as well.

You asked about my wife Marty.  Her chemo was postponed until probably June.  Her oncologist has made this decision and we are OK with it.  Supposedly her 5 year prognosis is zero, but we've been hearing that for seven years now.  So much for all the statistics!  We are truly in God's hands at this point(or any other point for that matter).  J.B.

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I am much more offended by your misleading analogies than anything else I have read here in a long time. This is exactly the type of character assasination used by those with nothing more than venom fueling their mentalities. Lots of people working in the prison system need help too. Spook was obiously right about the fur balls.
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You are right...only God makes these decisions.Doctors are quite limited by their humanity. I personally believe we are still in the dinosaur age when it comes to cancer treatment... and addiction treatment for that matter. Love and prayers. Brighty
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You have very appropriately documented the favorable response you have gotten from so many... myself included.... and your spiritual depth and personal humility when it comes to acknowledgement of God as you know him has been very moving.....and heaven knows you have been quite well received here. Chad and Chad from Philly have not put you down personally... in fact they are good people dealing in the stages of life that we all experience.... most of us have also acknowledged that your terminology is not the norm.... it reminds me of what Patrick said about James Joyce... and not to offend anyone with a poor analogy... but I personally prefer the New American Bible over the King James with all the THEE's, hast, and thous... not the type of English I tend to think in. Something similar has happened here, that's my take... and you are out there you know.

HOWEVER... now that you have posted to suit us I find it disappointing.... so boring.... I agree that you are much more interesting being YOURSELF. Thanks for the FM44 eyeopener... how did you know that offhand ??
Love, Brighty
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Congradulations!  Not since "Doc Dan" have I seen the type of posting that is being directed at you.  I'd take it as a compliment.

As Brighty said, BE YOURSELF.  J.B.
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Spook,

I already had noticed the difference.  You were in rare form when you posted that response to me (above).  I think you are evolving here on the forum.  Be whoever you feel like being.  That's what I feel like doing sometimes.  

JB.......Hey! That truck was on it's way to my house. lmao!!!!
SOooo that's why it never made it.  
Just a lil humor there.  Eventhough it may not be funny, I had to laugh.  I can't get (1) Vicodin half the time, and HE has a truck load full or bottle rather...   No pain no gain.  Right>>>????  Now I'm even sounding a bit like Spook.  
Sitting here listening to KING Classical FM, and did you know that classical music does wonders for the brain cells>>???

Love Yall!

Annie (:
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........How do you get those lengthy post in???  Everytime I try.....I get ERROR!!!! lol

Do you own this site, or have some trick we all don't know about???? lol

Annie
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Opps, I thought the truck was on it's way to my house...Your classical music line caught my eye,  I think you know since I left nursing i work at a pre-school teaching a bunch of toddlers.   When it is naptime I put on classical music just to put them to sleep but recently I have found myself actually liking it,  now you are talking to someone who grew up with Zeppelin and now is a die hard Matchbox 20, Creed fan....go figure...I did hear it was good for the brain cells,  does that mean fried cells as well? LOL   and my dear JB, My heart is with you and Marty....I think with so many advances in other areas we do lag behind when it comes to the treatment of cancer...and that is such a shame....My prayers are truly with the 2 of you.....Love to all cindi
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The name Brighty certainly fits you, you can look at it as Brighty (high intelligence) or Brighty such as my ray of sunshine that I mentioned before,   Thank you for your kind words,  you truly do bring something very special to this forum and to me.  The fierce protectiveness of a mother, the compassion and support of a friend and the wisdom of well,,,a fiercely protective, compassionate, supportive wise woman....Love to you dear brighty      Cindi
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I got more info today about that bottle.  They said it was roughly 2500 pills.  Imagine that!  

Classical music does wonders for me, too.  The only CD I have is the ballet, Firebird Suite (by Stravinsky?).  I crank it up till the pictures fall off the walls!  Music is some of the best therapy there is when we need a change of attitude.  J.B.
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OHHHHHHHHHHHh  Luke,Spook,  I read your post early this morning and have carried it in my mind all day,it has warmed my heart and soul.  what heartwarming sincere words....In my 40 years I have walked down many difficult roads, as we all have, but the past 3 months have been the hardest yet, but when I come to this forum and read what you guys write I am overcome with this feeling of having true friends that I understand and that understand me....I do understand you Luke Spook....I may not always understand your words but Ido understand what is in your big heart.  and there is alot there....I have know many people over the years from many walks of life and each are very unique individuals, that is what makes us so similar under God's hands, our differences...I have said it before and I will say it again, you are Luke and any other name would still be you...if that makes any sense.  As quirky as you can be,(I mean that in a loving way) that is what you are known and loved for by your true FRIENDS, not by these people that pop up in this forum, stir up some **** and then all that's left behind is the stench....forgive me if I sound a bit protective but I am....I am very passionate about 3 things, life, family and friends and I will go to the ends of the earth to defend the honor of those I care about and when I say friends that does not exclued those friends that I have come to know by words only because even though I do not know your eye or hair color you exist in my heart and in my spirit. Luke spook you do not need a woman with an IQ over 170, you need and will find a woman who loves luke for who he is and what he has to offer which I gather from just reading your words, (the normal ones I can understand  just kidding) that you can offer her so much on top of the sun, moon and stars.  I am also a romantic at heart. I have always believed that good things in fact do come to those who wait...You my dear luke spook are one in a million and I am truly blessed to have found a friend in you......Love to all   cindi
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What a great post you wrote to Spook... he will be very happy...I know I enjoyed reading it also. He has mentioned with unhappiness, his broken relationship. This is something that cuts us all to the quick and makes us wonder where we fit in this world. I know he will find comfort in your words.

About my name.. which has been commented on by others.... it has nothing to do with being intelligent (LOL !!) and I do appreciate your association with providing some rays of sunshine. In fact my REAL name is nothing even close to Brighty. It comes from my e-mail registration as Bright Light and my e-mail address ***@****    It is not who I am or profess to be.... it is that which I am forever in search of.

Love, Brighty
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Cindy The feeling you just gave me,has actually made my life feel like worth living again.(the Bookitty post really hurt me).Thankyou Brighty I was having doubts about my self worth and sanity,I thought all night about my post to FM44 and subsequent respones from Bookitty,My final conclusion is that yes I was ridiculous in my first reply to FM44(my reasons,I have left clues everywere esp below.And I came to realise that this Charles Manson Person(?) has been playing games with her mind and probably,made her Neurotic and Depressed,then I must have reminded her of Him and she let out some of the anger she has probably repressed and wanted to direct at him.So we probably could help each other and I certainly do not want her getting more hurt(damaged).This is how it all started in the first place,hate creates hate,love creates love,try to treat others as you would want them to treat you.
But I must say,I did ~enjoy~ you putting the boot in(my ego I suppose),but as a Person Who deals with people like that on a daily basis,I continue to learn to understand it first not feel it,then when you know their problem "feel" for them and try to give love.
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I have always been extremely emotionally sensitive and at an early age learn`t to use my intellect as an escape from emotional pain.
At this point in my life,I feel that if I cannot help myself or others their is no use in life(I actually do REALLY care about the problems of the world and feel our problems underly it).I still do not have the things in life that give one REAL emotional pleasure,like friends(not the sort that are there for YOU when you need them),nor a wife,Children or girlfriend,An open relationship with my Mother(she does not like to even talk about emotional things and gets angry.She has never hugged me either)Basically I cannot find Living feeling objects to love or love me..She loves me in a way a lot of other people have said,they wished their mother was like,for example she bought me a house,when I was 21 and a car etc,she has taken me on holidays all over the world,but I feel I will never know the real feeling person in her,in fact I know I will not.
Annie,when I first joined this forum I recieved an email from the lovely couple who founded it,and they said I was free to post and help people,I do not know if they,thought maybe because of my qualifications should give me special permission or not for longer posts than you,but I certainly do not use any Buffer overflow tricks or any other Hacking tricks.
I really am having problems with my emotions and have uses drugs to mask them,but I do not consider myself flawed,so I tend to avoid Addiction,right now I am totally straught and feel ok,but if a song comes on the radio and reminds me of things,that were or could have been,I think, you know the feeling, and I just need something,anything,a Xanax or Just a beer,maybe a joint or some Dihydrocodeine,this has been going on now since Puberty and even before drugs I used my emotional Intellect escape Hatch.

Maybe I was jeolous of Chad from Philly,as I am trying to get off drugs(permanently) to help me be more desirable to women and thus get a girlfriend and he has got it all(desirability and girlfriend and Oxycodone).Maybe it is just as many have told me that if you are not sexually attractive you will not get a girlfriend,apparently I am not.Now if you think this all a bit much,what about the hypocrasy that I want a sexually attractive partner myself.How can I come to peace with all this and I know that it all sounds like nothing more than a spoilt complaining childs problems,its not like I am going to Die from Cancer soon or something,so I think the bottom line here is to point out that I am Happy but not getting much pleasure.
The wierd things that spook says are nearly always after taking some alcohol and a Xanax or dihydrocodeine,or all at the same time.Maybe I am charcacter disordered,but in continual self therapy and sraping through(due to my profession).Whats keeps me pushing on?,one day I may just become a descent human being.
Anyway,I am going to have a little drink now ,I cannot handle anymore of this emotion stuff and a sad song just came on the Radio.It reminds me of a time when I did have a very nice girlfriend and took her for granted and was a sexual pig and lost her and hurt her,have I changed,will I love next unconditionally,yes,I already did that it meant having to leave her it is a long story,but basically she was born to a Manic Depressive Mother,and the Father had bailed out,and then her mother put her in a foster home for 2 years,from  age 2months and then came back and got her,at this point she was biting peoples fingers when they went "oh what a lovely baby"and went to touch her>It took me a long time to work out why this woman would tell me she loved me one week and then tell me we could never see each other again,she broke my heart 8 times in a single year,so a little Psychanalysis and I found out why this is happening,(mentioned above)a check into her background and I foung a string a men she had done this to.The last time she left me I went throught the Pain and then the Phone rings and its her and she wants to know why I never ring her????So I tell her I did not think she really Loved me,she assured me she did and I said Ok I will,etc,etc.I NEVER RANG HER,now thats what I call unconditional love,I could have had her forever,but knew she must learn how to really love.
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You know Spook, I (and many of us) have gone through the same ordeal of never feeling loved.  When ever I brought this up to my parents, they would just say, " well we didn't do that sort of thing when we were growing up," like hugging one another, or shows of affection.  Let me tell you this.....(my husband too) we hug our children daily and tell them 100s of times a day that we love them.  You should see how loving and caring they are.  People are amazed.  THey have turned out really sweet, and have very little baggage, except one of them is addicted to "Little Debbie Pies"....lol....Spook I used to feel so unloved growing up, and this is partly to havint two very young parents...who had to grow up..through my childhood.  I used to talk to God at a very young age.  I always felt special in his eyes, and (as a child) I knew he was looking upon me.  This helped a great deal.  When I became a teenager...then I experimented, rebelled, and wasnt quite the lil daughter of perfection.  LOL  
Ya know...I really needed a "mother" when I had my own children, but never really felt like I had one.  I always envied the children at school...there mothers would just put thier whole lives on the side for thier children.  I could go on and on, but my point is:  This has created something in us.  The ability to put ourselves in other's shoes...so to speak.  A quality so many people lack today.  My  wish for you is to find a decent woman, and have many children..lol...You have to come to a certain point before you are ready for this.  Takes time.  When this happens you will finally have "that love."  I do now.  Chin up mate!

Annie
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Oh Luke Spook, I knew in my heart that under all the intelligence there was a real, loving, caring, compassionate man.I am usually right about people.  I was involved in severla long term relationships and engagements etc. when I was younger, it took a really bad relationship and recovery to realize that I didn't have to marry anybody, I needed to wait for the right person, it took me 33 years to get it right, I am now 40 with 2 young children and all my friends have kids starting college.  My dear Spook, When you find your "soulmate" you will know, sure, any person wants someone appealing to them, I wouldn't want to sleep with Godzilla, would you?   but hey, we are human all with flaws, no one is perfect.  What is appealing to one person is not always appealing to another, when you find her, no matter what, there will be chemistry, and a feeling that I can't describe, whether she is short or tall, slim or  over weight (I call it "fluffy") red hair or blonde hair, she will be perfect to you and you will be perfect to her  (until you get married  LOL)II did grow up in a family that let me know how much I was loved, my mom's last words to me on Christmas EVE 2000,  Cindi I love you so much...I am the same way with my kids but that's just how I am, I believe in affection and kissing in public etc.  ( of course not taking it to the extreme) and you are beating yourself up for your last relationship, don't do that, obviously it was not meant to be,  don't look so hard and someone will be there when you least expect it,  she may be someone you know already, or maybe someone on this forum? ( Not that damn Bookitty,  someone needs to stick a firecracker up her ass   for hurting you like she did,) ok  over and done with..ahem,  ok sorry  I strayed for a minute...but i had to say it.  anyway, patience my spook, it will happen, when God closes one door he opens another,,,,always      love cindi   PS  Charles Manson is a Covicted Scum bag cult leader  he had followers he brainwashed and they killed people back in the 70's  I was kind of young but I do remember..
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I only mentioned Chuckie Manson because when I read your post I was not sure if you knew who he is or not...since you live in the land down under..I don't know maybe I'm dumb or something but I don't know if you hear about stuff like that in other countries...PSS  if you would, please, drop me a line at ***@**** are some things I have to talk to you about but I'm afraid you won't read the posts before they get deleted....
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Your post was very moving and I will not attempt to comment.

Now I have something to confess since you brought it up. I find men who are younger and more sexually attractive than I am to be very interesting... so does my 92 year old aunt. So far you have 2 people who have something in common with you !!

Regarding your relationship problems:
I don't normally listen to country music but am familiar with 2 songs... Looking for Love In all the Wrong Places   and
Friends in Low Places.... they are very telling lyrics.

I told my daughter if she was looking for the handsome prince not to hang around the moat and kiss a bunch of creepy toads hoping for a miracle..... just go right up to the castle door and knock.

It's not too late.... not ever !!! God bless you.
Love, Brighty

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ROFL !!!!!! Are you familiar with Hello Kitty ??? Well I have this image of Boo Kitty now... the same but different !!! Thanks for making me laugh so hard !!!!! Love, Brighty
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Grin :)    I don't know who hello kitty is?  but I was just so damn angry at Boo Kitty, I remember as a kid one on my neighbors told me he stuck a firecracker up some cat's butt (now, how true this was I don't know cuz he was just a bad kid) and that has kind of just stuck in my head all these years and I wanted to say something mean to Boo Kitty  but something printable.  LOL  It is kind of comical now when you think of Boo kitty in a certain Um..  Ahem...  (Big broad grin)  predicament?     MEEEEEEEOOOOOOOOWWWW Love Cindi    PS  I have 2 cats...
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Spook get out of these chats.  If you are not here to help, which is obvious, please leave.  You lend nothing to people seeking help, many whom are in a very difficult situation of their lives, me included.
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i've been using this site through my detox of at least 7 years of daily opiate use. i believe the root of my, for lack of better words, addiction, was a longing to be close to god. as i felt the pathway burning up, i knew i was on the wrong path and needed help. i'm an artist, successful, self employeed and a mom of 2, beautiful souls.
just a short message to say thank you, your posts gave me the strenght and courage to detox at home by myself. no percs for 3 weeks now and i feel pretty good. your posts of how to, what to do to feel better, what to expect, helped me beyond any way i know how to express myself. i was not willing to expose myself to the medical community, too arrogant? too frightened? maybe just not willing to be labled and have my medical records available to the system.
i appreciate and honor all of you wonderful, brave people on your journeys, send blessings and know if i can do it,and it's ugly, anyone can do it. thank you, spook you have been an angel,there is much love for you here.
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LOL ! I have 2 cats also !! And yes, there is cruelty that abounds everywhere.... I laughed knowing full well that you did not mean it literally... :-)) Hello Kitty is a ... well.. a marketing thing... stuffed animals, stationery, all sorts of stuff ... it's a cute little cat and her friends... I KNOW you have seen it everywhere for years... there are stands in the mall... ask someone... then you will know why I laughed so hard !!! My daugter has collected Hello Kitty items for years. Love, Brighty
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I do hope you find the help you need and I personally would not want to think that you cannot find at least some of it here. I think for the most part that everyone here is pretty sensitive and also able to offer loads of information. I have been coming to this board for a year now and it's a mixed bag... but primarily a GOOD mixed bag.... I realize that you are very serious and have little time for all the other nonsense... just hang in there and you will see that there are plenty of people that you will be better inclined to communicate with. I think you just have to skip over that stuff which is not understandable or not helpful to you. I am not sure but I think I may be nearly the only person here without an addiction problem... my daughter lives at home and is in recovery... we lived through a 3 year heroin nightmare at my house.... I posted a question and got lots of response... and I just kept at it in the comment and questions section. There was alot of stuff that was simply not helfpul to me but I just ignored it. As you continue in the threads actively you will get lots of support. I do not wish to be condescending or presumptive..... but maybe try to ignore that which is not helpful to you and continue to be proactive for YOURSELF... you deserve that.... I pray that you find 100% total healing from this awful affliction. Love, Brighty
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Well, what can I say, Brighty is so nice and so kind, her post to you was very admirable, I however am not like Brighty, I hope you are really happy with yourself,  It does not look like Spook will be back anytime soon and alot of people will notice it.just because you don't like spook does not mean he has not brought something of value to other people on this forum.  Spook has his share of problems, do you not understand what he is doing?  Alot of us do...he is hiding his hurt, as we have all done at one time or another and people come here for comfort, If he does nothing for you then do what Brighty suggested, ignore him, There is so much pain and hurt out there why would you want to contribute to someone's pain?  There is no room for insensitive uncaring people,  Why can't we care about each other?  Why do we have to hurt other people?  Why do we have to judge others?
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I say  BOOOOOOOOOO to Kitty.  lmao  What do you think???
Yall crack me up.  Brighten my day... you sure do.

Love,

Annie
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First trip back to this forum since my last inappropriate post. Sheesh, didn't realize it would have such an impact. I've gone through this whole thread and am amazed at how it's evolved. I first visited because of a Vicodin addiction, and didn't find it to be like another really helpful forum that I've been to. Spook's comments seemed so disruptive to the spirit in which I envisioned the forum to be. My apologies for doing the exact thing that I thought was wrong in the first place. I was going through hellish WD's, but am close to the end of my taper and feeling near normal again since spitting up my furball. I just hope Spook don't still wish for me to have a stroke. God Bless all of you who are fighting addiction.

BooKitty  aka FURBALL
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Hey.....we joke around a sometimes here.  We do.  All of us have problems.  Look, I'll be the first to tell you, When Spook first started posting here....My antennas went up, and I was totally against the grain..so to speak.  I thought that he put himself above others here, and his philosophy was somewhat
"New age"...and here I am a Bible toting christian...and yeah I have problems too.  Ater Spook and I were able to get into it over our beliefs (our forum friends stepped aside diplomaticly) His true spirit was revealed.  Ya see he has problems too, and my heart goes out to him.  I have decided not to get into lengthy doctrinal postings....and he and I get along ok now.  He's human, and has taken a bashing here.  I only hope he comes back.  We have no idea what is going on, truly in someones life,and our words may push them over the edge.  Gosh, I'd hate for that to happen, wouldn't you????  
Sorry for the problems you've had to endure, and if your assumptions were right, and you were only seeking to be protective, then my hat's off to you, but everyone deserves time to be known.  There true inner self will be revealed sooner or later.  

Love ya!
annie

Ps.....I here cola is good for those furballs....lmao  Disolves those babys right up.
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I keep doing that.......I KNOW how to spell Hear....I notice others do it too.  Here we go....hear, hear, hear........lol
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HERE KITTY, KITTY, KITTY,
Well,it's good to see that things are looking better for you, I guess we all have our "hairy" days. I don't think ol spook is the kind of guy that would wish really bad things on people, maybe a furball or two at the most, nothing a little prune juice can't fix.  I think what upset him the most was the chuck manson thing, but maybe spook will come back and you two can maybe start over?  I hope things continue to get better for you  Oh yeah, the firecracker thing?  I was having a bad day myself    cindi
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I am laughing so hard this am... a good way to start the day. You are hysterical.... Booooooo hoooooooo hoooooo..... here kitty kitty !!!!! LOL !!!!!! You are both delightful !!! Love, Brighty
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This is where good kitty's come for aftercare... to lick their paws, stretch out in a sunny window and purrrrrrrrrrrrrrr !!! There's lots of stroking and some kitty fights too !!! :-))

Hope you stay here and purr for the most part.

Spook is off licking his wounds and dealing with the stuff of life also. He is a really smart person  .... and I think a really good person. You probably missed his posts on the pain of hitting his bottom and finding God who offered him healing.

Not to worry... without knowing that, stepping in on these posts was probably very confusing... well that's the best word I have :-)) Love, Brighty
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Please, where are you ?????????????????????????

I was not one of the ones smart enough to find your e-mail address encrypted somewhere...... otherwise I'd e-mail you!!!

I tried to go back and find it but those posts were deleted long ago.  Please get in touch. Love, Brighty
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I'm going to answer your prior question on this thread.  I didn't post the whole testimony up there, because I didn't want to use up to much space in the Hedhurtz thread.  
As far as I know, Dr. Hurwitz was exonerated on all 6 counts, eventhough; they still gave him trouble....What ever happend to "innocent after found not guilty??"  There was another doctor accused: Dr. Solomon.  He was not so lucky.
Here is the rest of the testimony:
When my patients came to see me, they were terrified that I too would reject them, or subject them to more tests, more procedures, more expense and delay.  But my approach was different.  I asked them what had worked in the past, and that was my starting point.  I let their response to medication guide my treatment.  If one medication didn't work, or made them sick, we - the patient and I - tried another.  If a medication became less effective, we increased the dose.  Sooner or later, we found what worked best for each patient.

The response to pain relief was dramatic.  People who hadn't worked in years went back to work.  People who could barely get out of bed began to move, even to dance.  Some no longer needed crutches or a cane.  Almost everyone reported that their lives were better.  Many said that I had given them their lives back.

When word went out that my license had been suspended, there was panic as patients contemplated what it would mean for the pain to return.  Lives that had been rebuilt on the basis of pain control had lost their foundations.

(Note: In this photo at right patients laid on the floor in agony as the Medical Board couldn't care less about their pain. That, and with what they did to ME, made me mad enough to stop working and help the patients, starting years of therapy that I'm still in. Several others committed suicide which I barely escaped, and one died of shock after his meds were taken away overnight by police. Dr. Hurwitz is not my doctor yet I could not avoid helping his patients. At one point Jim Klimek, above with no legs, drove 3000 miles for just two refills as I rode along. Another atrocity, but done by a pharmacist who "gouged" him by $2000 thanks to those uncaring Board Members. That kind of "Medical Board" must be done away with forever. Skip).

After I lost my license, the fear was palpable:  pharmacists afraid to fill my prescriptions, doctors afraid to take my patients, and patients desperate for continuity and certainty.  Added to the stigma of taking morphine, methadone, or Dilaudid, was the stigma of being one of "Dr. Hurwitz's" patients.

There were a few happy stories.  A few physicians who had known my patients before they came to me and saw their improvement while under my care were willing to continue the treatment.  Pain specialists at some of the academic centers and a few brave doctors in private practice were willing to take my patients.  Some of my patients, those who had saved a reserve supply, were able to obtain a modicum of pain relief and avoid the symptoms of abrupt withdrawal.

Some stories were not so happy.  A few patients went through horrible withdrawals - a number who availed themselves of medical help were admitted to psych units and detoxed cold turkey.  Some found doctors who were willing to treat them, but were unwilling to continue what had been successful medication regimens.  Some were exploited by doctors who imposed expensive and risky procedures as a condition for receiving pain medication.  And some just gave up, exhausted by insurmountable obstacles.

There were two suicides directly attributable to the prospect of inadequate pain control.

How Does The Police-State of Medicine Affect Medical Care?

The quasi-criminal liability imposed on physicians distorts clinical information and medical judgment, impedes the development of clinical expertise, undermines the ethical commitments necessary to medical practice, and leads to the abandonment, wasted lives, and deaths of patients with intractable pain. Holding physicians liable for the misbehavior or dishonesty of their patients turns physicians into policemen and is, in principle, incompatible with effective medical care.

In what other context do we sit in judgment of a patient's moral worth to determine his eligibility for treatment?  Is a former addict with AIDS less entitled to medical care than the victim of a contaminated transfusion?  Or less entitled to pain relief with opioid medications?

To me, the unequivocal answer is no.  We are not society's policemen, nor should we be.  I am not arguing that we should be indifferent to the use to which our prescriptions are put.  I am arguing that patients deserve the benefit of the doubt, that a Draconian response to the occasional, but inevitable physician error in providing medication to the dishonest patient who may be misusing or diverting medication has the inevitable consequence of denying pain relief and perhaps condemning to death the honest one.

Effective medical care requires trust in both directions.  A patient must trust that his physician is acting in the patient's medical interest.  But how is this possible when the physician's career is threatened by doing so?  A physician must trust that his patient is reporting his circumstances and symptoms accurately.  How is this possible when the  patient is afraid that the truth will look suspicious, and that merely looking suspicious will prompt abandonment?

Under current regulatory policies, distrust governs the treatment of pain and subverts the usual clinical calculus of risk and benefit.  Patients are subjected to a modern version of trial by ordeal, where their credibility as patients is measured by the pain and indignity they are willing to endure and the expense they are willing to incur.  And physicians who are unwilling to impose these indignities as a condition for pain treatment are punished with the destruction of career, reputation, and livelihood.

In the end, the only important clinical question should be:  What is best for the patient?  As physicians, we treat individuals for the simple reason that they are fellow human beings, and our treatment must respect their humanity.  Respect requires that patients be afforded the dignity of choice - the freedom to choose or refuse treatments based on their calculus of risk and benefit and cost.  The current regulatory regime effectively denies most patients the dignity and respect that simple humanity requires.

What Can We Do About It?

The stakes in this battle are too great to leave its outcome to the valiant efforts of the dedicated few.  We need reinforcements in the form of legal help, publicity, and financial support to help make boards of medicine and the DEA legally and politically accountable for the misery they engender.  Intractable pain acts are not enough.  And if boards of medicine were, as a practical matter, legally, ethically and politically accountable, such statutes would  not be necessary.

Our strategy should be to raise the cost to the regulators of their regulatory tyranny and to lower the cost to physicians, pharmacists, and patients of defending their rights.  We need to destroy the public's naive presumption of the regulators disinterested good faith, to debunk the myth that medicine is being regulated in the public interest, and to reveal the abuse of power for what it is. Only then will we empower physicians to help their patients, and patients to control their pain.

THIS IS MY PROBLEM W/ THE DEA.  THIS DOCTOR WAS BRAVE, AND DIDN'T HAVE THE HEART TO TURN HIS PATIENTS AWAY.  LOOK HOW THEY USED HIM IN THEIR PLATFORM OF THE "WAR ON DRUGS."  I KNOW YOUR CONCERNS ARE FOR YOUR DAUGHTER'S ADDICTION, BUT WHEN WE "POLICE DOCTORS AND MEDICINE" THE WAY WE HAVE, IT EFFECTS ALL FACETS OF TREATMENT AND MEDICINE;THEREFORE EFFECTING ALL OF US.

LOVE,
ANNIE
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Your Dr. Hurwitz story is heartrending and infuriating. To be honest, I hate the DEA. I don't believe they've ever done anyone any good, ever. They're effort in the "war on drugs" is a sad joke. The dealers remain untouched while the easy victims, the law-abiding pain patients among us get crucified. Why? Because it's easy to prosecute law abiding citizens. Professional criminals are much harder to prosecute. It's common knowledge that most DEA field agents are practicing drugs addicts themselves, either out of necessity in order to make drug deals without getting a bullet in the head, or simply because they have access and unlimited freedom to use. Down with the DEA, I say. Send them all to a special rehab for assholes.
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The support you give me in my beliefs of the whole ordeal...gives me courage.  I am glad that You(Tom), Spook, Brighty, Cindi, JB, Dee Dee, Kerri, Pelle, Hope...Gee I could go on and on......have supported me here on this "addiction" forum.  I suspected that there was a serious problem in our legal system years ago.  It wasn't till I came here, that I realized my assumptions were accurate...an addiction forum, of all places.  
Eventhough you all have been through a living hell w/ drugs and have every right to nock 'em down.....you have supported my beliefs where they are concerned.  I am angry, sad, and totally dismayed by what I have found out via the internet, about "the war on drugs."  I've only had my computer for 8 months...so I had no access to these stories beforehand.  Isn't it ironic that when I needed the pain medication the most, we had decided to get a computer for our business.  The events unfolded in such a timely manner.  Then I discoverd you all.  Wow, a place that I could come to, and speak my heart and mind.  Would have never believed it.  Thank you for you support, Tom/Pat.  I really need it.
Love ya!

Annie
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Don't forget about the allmighty above-the-law Internal Revenue Service.  They've been on my tail since 1982.  Maybe we need another Revolutionary War?  J.B.
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....Don't get me started on them, JB.  I get in arguments on the phone w/ those incompetent A-holes....lol  My dad owns his business....and my mom fussed at me for telling them off. lmao
We own our business also.  I have to send everything certified receipt.....Cause they say "we didnt get it.", it never arrived. lol.....yeah right.

Love ya

Annie
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Sorry I didn't see this post right away !! It was a thought provoking expose' on how the government has it's fingers in every pie to negatively affect the lives of people like yourself and those who can and should be able to provide quality care to improve your life.

I agree totally!!!!
]
You make an interesting point in your comment about my concern for my daughter. That she does not have chronic pain and was not a narcotic pill addict ( benzo's yes... different drug and use altogether) would not relate to heroin use except that a legitimate script for severe and prolonged pain could re-awaken addiction. I think that just comes with the territory and there is no easy way to predict where truth and integrity of the recovery process will be diminished by the desire to continue with meds when they may no longer be needed. No doctor can police this accurately. Pain is a horrible insidious thing.... only the person with it can know what they need.

This may sound dumb... but it seems that since narcotics certainly do create involuntary addiction and cause major life problems... and that pain is also a major problem ... that there should be a way to separate the wheat from the chaff.

I thought that pain management clinics were the places that could determine via medical understanding of the causes of pain how to treat those people with serious intractable pain for as long as needed.... are they also sending people out the door and dismissing them as med seeking ???  There is a big pain management clinic in my town. I have no clue though what other areas offer. I figured that patients such as those in Dr. Hurwitz practice could find relief from places such as this. ( ?????????) And I figured that they would have more elbow room to prescribe without fear of DEA actions. I am speaking of doctors who are trained as pain management specialists. ???????????????????? Maybe they have lot's of restraints put on them.... I really do not know so maybe you can tell me.

So basically, does a person with serious chronic pain have more success at a specialty practice and do specialty practices for pain have more privilege in long term prescribing and dosages than an non pain specialist ??

Is there any machine or test that can "see" pain and it's intensity which can be used as a diagnostic tool to learn if there is pain and how intense ???

You can see, Annie, that I am very clueless about this type of thing and maybe we can educate people like myself who would want to give unrestrained treatment to those who really need it and reduce the problem of non-medical addicts trying to perpetrate an opiate need for a pain need. (And that in itself is another issue that I also am sensitive to... true addiction.)

Love, Brighty



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Thank you for your interest.  The sad part I have discovered is Pain mngmt, (where I live) is a joke.  I have gone to 2 clinics and have traveled as for as 80miles to one of them.  The first clinic was a joke.  The doctor came in and was quick to open my gown.  No other doctor had to do this, not even my ortho.  That's what x-rays are for.  Anyway, he wanted to do an injection while under x-ray in the SI joint.  I dropped him and never had it done, only to discover recently that this is to dangerous and won't work in my case.  The SI is very hard to reach in my situation.  My ortho told me this.  So God must be watching out for me.  OK, then there is "Doctor No it all" 80 miles away.  Told me NO NO to narcotics, and dammed anyone who would give them to me.  He made me spend money on braces, gadgets, and gizmos.  LOL  What a joke.  I haven't seen him in one year.  I've recently checked my provider directory and found 2 anesthesiologist (they are the ones that usually go into the Pain field), only to discover they have pulled out because their poor patients were becoming so dependant.  And they act like they feel for these patients, my ass.  They are worried about scrutiny from the DEA.  
Any way my pcp has prescribe some Vicodin, but I am made to feel like a criminal.  I have my Drivers license photocopied and I have to go through two nurses, and sometimes he makes me come in to see him.  Then I get all the "looks."  Never mind the fact that I shouldn't be driving when I am in pain. He never "calls" in a script.  They have to be picked up, so your DL can be photocopied.
Then there is my Orthopedist.  He has been treating me for pain the last few months, because I am post surgery.  I tell you I am tempted to go to the streets.  This is a mess.  I know there are many worse off than me, but what is being done.  The gov't is saying ok...it's time to stop ignoring chronic pain and treat it like a vital sign......but on the other hand they are hauling doctors in like criminals.  Doctor's have to report every script to the DEA.  They are scared to death.  All this talk about doctor feel good prescribing to be rich is a joke.  Any doctor that has the guts to prescribe a narcotic pain-killer is taking big risks, and doesn't get rich off of it.  That's a joke in itself.  The paperwork is enough to deter them.  
I have found a Rheumatologis on a chronic pain site.  His ofc. is in the next town.  I left a detailed msg.  w/ his nurse (recorded), asking if they treat degenerative arthritis also.  That was 3 days ago.....I guess the Post multiple trauma and degenerative arthritis part scared them off.  WOW....It sure felt good to get this off my chest...I hope I haven't bored you to death, lol.  Did I cover everything. lol  Thanks for your concern, it really helps.

Love, annie

PS...Pain specialist are supposed to be the educated ones on how to prescribe, what to prescribe, who to prescribe to, and how to wean off when necessary.  This has not been my experience here.
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Avatar_n_tn
There are some new pain killers out there,but now w/ all the negative media and abuse...they won't be prescribed for long.  These meds were developed to be longer acting and safer on the liver.  Still highly addictive.  This is really all we have, now.  NSAIDS, are not pain-killers.  I was given that line of bullcrap too.  I know people have died on that stuff.  Tears your insides up to shreds.  NSAIDS are not the best choice for long term therapy.  Doctor's are killing some of their patients, when giving this stuff out like candy.
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Avatar_n_tn
....You asked if there was anyway to test for pain: a tool or test of some sort.  Not really.  I can tell you this...I couldn't be released from the hospital after surgery, because my vitals were out of wack due to the pain.  They had to titrate the medication......and finally gave me morphine.  I suffered for 6 hours till this was given.  Then I got nauseaus from the morphine...go figure. lol  I was able to get up out of bed and get dressed.  Then able to go home.  Then the real nightmare hit.  Pain, very severe for 3 days.  I was only given 5mg. of hydrocodone.  It felt like someone was hammering nails into my leg from hip to knee.  "I shall survive" in the words of Donna Summer, and I did.  lol  
I hope this offered some understanding, although I have to tell you I still remain somewhat divided, at times, on this issue.  I feel the way you do.  Addiction IS a horrible thing to endure, but so is pain.

Annie
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Avatar_n_tn
Thank you for an enlightening post that EVERYONE should see... but it's so far down on the board now that I doubt if many scroll this far down when they log in !!!

Your daily courage is inspirational... and I am appalled at what you have to go through. I would not tell you to not go to the streets except that you could become a criminal and then every attempt to do this will be subject to another violation... this is why people end up in jail ... and NO judge or proscecutor will every buy a line that you could not get what you wanted from  a pain management specialty practice even though you know the truth. They have you by the short hairs.

I hope you do not call yourself an addict since you are dependent on this drug to be functional.... there is a difference... and I can only offer my prayers that you will be healed. Do the medicine men believe there is hope of healing from a medical stand point ??

Love, Brighty
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Avatar_n_tn
Thank you so much for your prayers and interests.  I was told when this mva occurred that I would have arthritis, but being young and invensible.....I didn't buy one bit of it.  I went on w/ my life for years, built two houses, had another child, and just kept going and going like the energizer bunny.  THen it happend.  I started having serious problems.  Partly due to the hardware, and Yep, I now have degenerative arthritis, in areas that are far beyond reach.  This is like a cancer that eats away at your joint tissue.  Considering over 20 broken bones.....I will develope many problems.  So from a physicans stand point, I will continue to get worse (maybe end up in a wheelchair) riddled w/ pain.  The x-rays show this happening now.  I had to finally come out of the clouds and down into reality.  I am finally coming to terms w/ it.  I will have to be under doctors care from here on out.  But what doctor????  Still looking.  WIsh me luck.  

Love ya!
Annie
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Avatar_n_tn
I send you prayers and healing energy... am going to be off the forum a little bit... ***@**** if you are in any need. Love, Brighty
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Avatar_n_tn
I'll keep it in my email address book.  Thanks a bunch.  We'll chat soon.

Love,
Annie
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Avatar_n_tn
like everyone and everything, pain specialists are not all created equal. Buy a diploma from Jamaica and,presto, you're a pain specialist. Obvously, pain speciaist should be a calling, like being a priest. You're desire to relieve suffering should be what drives you and gives your life meaning. Thank god there are such doctors. But it's a minefield, sorry to say.
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Avatar_n_tn
......There is a name for those minefield explosives:
"napalmdoctorfindingatomiclifedeystroyingkillerbombs"
and those little devils are planted from North to South in my state......DOC, Beware!
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Avatar_n_tn
As far as drug addiction goes.....I have cancer so I have been on most of all pain killers that are one the market. They all work great but they also have many many side affects....which suck!!!!! I was on Vicodin, Oxycontin, Muscle Relaxers (of all sorts, smoked some weed ......all to dull the pain. They all worked, but little did I know I got addicted to all of them. The good thing is that you can get off of them.....I did and I still have day to day pain. Cancer really sucks the big one. To everyone that is addicted to this ****......you can get off....just walk away from them....I did! It is hard but I figured...do I want to die fighting for my life or do I want to die the easy way out.....OVERDOSE!!!! I AM taking my chances and fighting for my life! Thanks ya'll for listening!!!!!
Peace!!!
Femme
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Avatar_n_tn
As far as drug addiction goes.....I have cancer so I have been on most of all pain killers that are one the market. They all work great but they also have many many side affects....which suck!!!!! I was on Vicodin, Oxycontin, Muscle Relaxers (of all sorts, smoked some weed ......all to dull the pain. They all worked, but little did I know I got addicted to all of them. The good thing is that you can get off of them.....I did and I still have day to day pain. Cancer really sucks the big one. To everyone that is addicted to this ****......you can get off....just walk away from them....I did! It is hard but I figured...do I want to die fighting for my life or do I want to die the easy way out.....OVERDOSE!!!! I AM taking my chances and fighting for my life! Thanks ya'll for listening!!!!!
Peace!!!
Femme
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Avatar_n_tn
......I'm sorry for what you've been going through.  Are you in remission now???  Cancer has plagued my family from one side to the other.  We just burried my grandmother 18months ago, and my 31 year old friend w/ 2 small children 2 years ago.  I watched my grandmother suffer, and asked for her time to come.  SHe couldn't take the pain, and there was nothing that could be done for her cancer.  I live in a place where chemicals take up our breathing space as though it was air.  We have high cancer rates here, and often wonder,"am I next?"  You sound very hopeful, and almost like your doing ok now.....  This is wonderful if you've beaten this horrible thing...I wish you all the best.
I have degenerative arthritis, and bone spurs from many many broken bones in an auto accident.  I was told for years that I would have arthritis, but went on w/ my life...because, hey..I'm young right?  Well almost 10 years later,and this dreadful disease is everywhere w/ spurs to boot.  I have been on my medication since January, and still have never taken more than 3 or 4 of anything in any given day.  I know my pain will progress, and nothing can be done about it.  I've come to terms w/ that, and the difference between me and a cancer patient is: I won't die from my disease, just suffer for the rest of my life, and I'm still somewhat young. There is one ray of hope (aside of my faith, that has carried me thus far), is pain medication.....this has given me some hope, and I know this has deytroyed many lives, but there are 2 sides to every story, and hopefully we will revise our current standards, and give people suffering from addiction better choices in treatments, and pain patients the medication they need to have some dignity, and some quality of life.....hey and we all win, don't we.  God bless you, and take care!
Love,Angelica
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