Weekends without drugs

[Sundown]

My first time starting a question here. I posted on some threads below, so I won't repeat myself. My question is, do you have more trouble on week days or weekends. For me, during the week I can concentrate on work and feel pretty well. On the weekends though, when I feel I don't have anything to "do", I remember losing myself in a drugged haze to get through the isolation. While I'm now 26 days clean, I feel more of a pull when I'm sitting around with nothing to do. Do others feel the same? And how do you handle it.

I know we all have our own "triggers", but for me the downtime of weekends is difficult. I could try to just spend more time working ( I'm building a new business after losing my last one from my drug abuse) but somehow I feel I would be substituting one addiction for another. How do you learn to be alone and feel at peace? While I do feel the best I've ever felt in years thanks to stopping the vikes and getting real treatment for my depression, after being islolated for so long I feel like I've lost my ability to engage life outside of work. Any suggestions would really be appreciated.

Thanks to all of you
Sundown

[Bodymechanic]

I am glad all of you feel so good when your off drugs but I sure as hell don't. I'm always tired, I ache all over and I can never sleep. I am generally apathetic with no motivation and sometimes can be a pain in the ass to people. These are classic syptoms (symptoms) of depression and I know that. I don't mean being off drugs for a few weeks, I mean being off for years at a time. It is always the pain and the general fatigue that drives me back to the opiates. I truely feel better on them. The head fog clears, I can sleep and I have motivation to help others which is my job. I mean in low doses of say 5-10 mg a day of hydro. If I did not abuse them, which of course I always do, I would be fine.

I have been reading in the psychiatric literate about numerous cases of depression related to depletion of endogenous endorpines (just a theory). In fact it has been a topic of debate in the profession for a long time.  Did you know that since the early 70s it has been know that low doses of bupenorpine .2 mg can work wonders for many previously resistant depression cases.  I am will to bet that these cases are in the hundreds of thousands.  There is a reason besides just plain old "hey lets get high" that people are so depressed that they are killing one another over these drugs. I can't help but wonder if that is what is wrong with me. The usual antidepressants usually make me much worse. I'm sure I can go on forever like this but the quality of my life inside myself is not nearly what it could be. I also think I could help a lot more people if I didn't always feel boarderline shitty all the time. Yes, I found God a long time ago.

Where is this doctor that is suppose to be here anyway? I am starting to wonder if I will ever be able to get the help I need. As you all know, just mention the word recovering addict and you are an immediate outcast.

Peace

"I am not an animal, I am a human being"
(John Merrick) The Elephant Man

[Bodymechanic]

I did not mean to upstage your post but this is something I have been needing to talk about for a long time and I can never post a question.

"Hobbies, lots of hobbies, they keep you off dope"
(Actor Robert Duvall)

Peace

[DubeMechanic]

Hobbies generally occupy my time during weekends. Reading, radio controlled models, Very Loud Music, computers (building and modifying, not just using) all take up the slack when Im not working.

As for being alone, I have no prob with that. Ill visit friends when  I want but Im not a big social person.

DM

[Sundown]

As one who has been depressed for many years, I relate to what you're describing. Yes, opiates seem to make the depression "better", but it really is false. Definitely get treatment for your depression. I too have treatment resistant depression, and it took a new psychopharmacologist to finally help me find the right combination of medications for me. I had really given up hope of meds ever working and was even considering ECT (shock therapy). now, over the last month I finally have a combo that WORKS. Everyone's brain chemistry is different, and you need to find a really competant doctor who is willing to try for a really efective treatment for you. My current medications are experimental in that not actually proven for severe depression, but very recent studies supported their use in 50% of people who failed convetional therapy. Thank god, I seem to be in that 50%. It was a risk to try meds which have been used in few people, but it was worth it faced with the alternatives.

Don't give up hope. Find a good psychopharmacologist to work with. There are answers out there, and you don't need to self medicate with opiates to find relief. A month ago I would not believe the statements I just wrote, but the proof is in how I feel, and the fact that life seems worth living.

Sundown

[beenthere2]

Is there anything that makes you happy?  When I say that, I mean something or someplace that makes you feel good? (besides "high")  Start small, and build up from there.  Dont worry about substituting one addiction for another right now- you have to do whatever it takes to bring joy into your life right now.

[groovygirl]

How do you learn to be alone and at peace?  THAT is a question so many struggle with.  My husband doesn't understand how I do it so well...he doesn't have that need to be alone, so he takes it personally when I say it.

I have always felt at peace by myself.  Sometimes, I force myself to be social...I prefer solitude.  Maybe it's a bad thing...I'm not sure.  However, I know so many people who would rather die than spend a weekend (or an hour) alone.

Meditation and yoga are great ways to wind down.  It's hard to be alone with thoughts racing through your head...much easier when your mind is clear.  Discover hobbies that you can only do alone.  

Rent a movie that you love.  I like to light candles, put on something comfortable and just chill watching a movie. I don't get to do that often, so when I do I really enjoy it.

Learn to bake....just learn something new that you've always wanted to do and let yourself really get into it.  Reading is my thing, so I can get lost for hours in a good book

We have a daughter, so alone time isn't always easy to find...do you have a family?  I hope you can learn to cherish the time alone with yourself...good luck.

[athena]

Good morning and welcome.Your posts will really help people that are wondering what life without drugs will be like.About the weekend boredom,what kinds of things are you interested in?
When I started using hydro,I isolated myself from family and friends.I loved being alone.now I find the need to Get A Life!lol I have thought about everything from going bowling to rollerskating.Anything to meet others.I think someone told you to start out small.Choose one thing you may enjoy and go for it.At least it will kill a little time.Good luck.

pixi

[groovygirl]

Hi - I have looked for a pharmacologist in my area (Boston), but there are slim pickings here.

What medications are you on?  I feel that I am treatment resistant also.  I have tried so many meds.

[Sundown]

Did you try calling McLean hospital for a referral? It is an excellent hospital with superb doctors on staff. I am currently on imipramine, remeron, and lamictal for augmentation. I have been on klonapin for anxiety but since starting on this combo my need for klonapin has dropped dramatically.

The use of lamictal is very new for depression. It has been used for bipolar, and is known to have antideppresant properties. It also seems to have anti-anxiety properties. While not yet accepted for unipolar depression, two recent medical studies showed some promise, which is how I ended up on it.

Good luck finding a good doctor. It took me a long time to find one who would listen to me and be willing to be aggresive (aggressive) at treatment.

Sundown

[Sundown]

Thanks for your advice on trying to develop activites. It's just been so long since I felt like doing anything that it's hard to know where to start. I commited myself to getting out and trying to do something rather than sitting around the house. I'll let you know how it goes.

Sundown

[hellbent]

I spent 4 years basically on the couch, or the computer, spending all my money procuring drugs and all my time taking them. I went through an extended detox, but when I was finally able to get out of bed, I had to create a whole new life from scratch.

I started going to aa/na metings. It sucked unbelievably at first. I looked terrible, felt terrible, was shaking, smelled, etc.. I hadn't been around people in years, and here I was surrounded by them and there were even chicks there, and I looked like an lsd test subject. My ego was hurting.

5 mos later, I have a new group of friends, have an excellent tech. job working with a guy I met in the program. I have lost 55lbs, look great, am playing sports again, etc...

The void that the drugs left in my life had to be filled. If I sat around trying to have the life I had before without taking drugs, I wouldn't have made it. Sitting around my apartment is a huge trigger. Just spending a few hours alone sometime gets me in trouble: I feel irritable and feel a dark film come over me.

During the week, I get up at 6:30 and get home around 10PM. I work, I go to meetings, I work out. My depression was acute for awhile: 5 years on heavy opiates severely screws endorphin production. I put my head down and lifted weights and got them going again. What is maybe more important, for me, in escaping depression, is not to be alone and trapped in my head. Nothing makes me more depressed than being alone and thinking about myself. That depresses anyone. I haven't been depressed in a long time, and I am sure that my endorphins aren't firing all cylinders even now: depression for me is relative to how much time I spend in isolation. When I am hanging with freends and getting real, it just doesn't happen.

[groovygirl]

Some have written about exactly the reasons to try to be comfortable being alone.  For many, being alone with free time means trouble.  To be totally free, for me, means being comfortable with myself...not in isolation by in solitude.  There is a difference.  If you feel isolated while you are alone, then it is unhealthy.  Solitude is a peaceful feeling...a healthy, warm glow within yourself that tells you you are OK.  Many people race around going to work, gym, errands...ANYTHING to keep themselves from thinking too much.  That is escaping to me.  I think that is why a lot of people are so stressed, tired and have addiction in the first place.  Free time is so valuable in this crazy world...it is rare and should be cherished.  Try to spend a few minutes just walking around in the woods...look at the leaves changing color, feel the wind and listen to the silence, try to clear your thoughts and just be.  John Lennon said it best when he said something like "life is what happens to you while you are busy making other plans."  So true....

[hellbent]

I absolutely love solitude, don't get me wrong. The warm, joyous glow I get is chewing an OC 80 when the rain is coming down, starting a fire and reveling in the fact that I don't have to deal with anyone or anything, except maybe my girlfriend and my dog.

Execept, going down that road eventually almost killed me dead, and it took everything valuable in my life away.

So, today, I do that which is not easy. I put myself out in the world, help addicts, show up, and always try to do the next right thing in front of me. It's the only way that keeps me free from the compulsion to use again. Isolation and escape are my natural inclinations, and as such I need to try to contradict them whenever I can.

[Starraven]

Wow, Your post hit so close to home.  I know exactly how you feel. Until last year I was not on pain killers with any kind of regularity.  So I trolled around in the dumps so it seemed.  Lack of motivation, edgy all the time, became a loner.  Alienated all my friends, was very bitchy. I was only able to be close to my family and even then it was sometimes very hard, I was always the one that stopped hugging first if you know what I mean.If the phone rang I wouldn't answer it. (all this started after the birth of my last child at age 36) Doctors said it was post partum.  Well, mine lasted for and is still here after four years.  So it was not postpartum.  I was later diasnosed with a depressive disorder and then later with bipolar as well as generalized anxiety disorder.  The only thing that really brought me any kind of normal feeling was working in my husbands practice anywhere from fifty to sixty hours a week. I was a maniac in my work.  Then there was an accident..(a castration of a horse gone bad with one of our new doctors fresh out of Vet school) I was in the line of fire and alas, my spinal injury and surgery and the wonderful normal feeling I got from taking all those wonderful pills they prescribed. I felt so good and all my motivation and vibrance returned. I was no longer depressed. I felt like I was living again.  I was "normal"  
I have been on wellburtrin, paxil, zoloft, elavil and then prozac for the depression.  Which for me was not just feeling down, it was everything you described. Before the medication I even stopped doing or even eating or drinking the things I used to love.  (I couldn't even have my once a month margarita at chili's..Just had no interest in my once favorite drink LOL)

Now that I have been clean for 32 days I feel much better, but I know that I will fall back into that rut of not being motivated, being bitchy ect.  It hasn't happened yet thank god, but I know it will.  Then I will have to go back to prozac..The only thing that ever helped me.  The other pills for me were useless.  Of course I won't feel the "i can conquer anything" without the narcotics, but at least on prozac I will be able to live life without the lack of motivation, edgyness ect.

Sorry this was so long, but you aren't alone, I feel the same way you do and wanted to share that with you.  Our brains just don't function like your average Joe on the street.  We are special! :(  But damn, wouldn't I like to be normal!
Hugs to you
Suze

[CATUF]

Hello - stopped into the office for a minute, so I thought I'd say "hello."  To stay on topis: week DAYS are the hardest for me.  It's at the office, during the week, with all the work that I get so stressed -- I usually feel like I'm spinning way too many plates . . . and it's then that I long for the sweet release of the hydro.  For 34 days now, however, I've just reminded myself that the "sweet" went sour a long time ago and all the hydro does now is make me take more hydro so I won't feel like hell.  

Gotta run . . . kid duty calls.

CATUF

[Bodymechanic]

I used the word depression in my post. From my symptoms the only diagnosis one could come to is that of depression. But depression implies being unhappy. I am not unhappy in any sense of the word. In fact my life is rich and full, one that many people would envy. I went from being literally a street junkie to a doctor(chiropractor). I have just about every material possession anyone could want. I have a beautiful wife and daughter. I get along well with my extended family. I do not hide from people. I am around them all day and I enjoy it.  I am exceedingly grateful for the blessings god has given me. What I am describing is endless terrible fatigue, sleeplessness and pain.  All of which are absolutely without a doubt in my head.  It is a struggle to do just about anything. I feel like I am fighting against gravity every day of my life.  As if the ground was trying to suck me under. I get so tired of fighting that sometimes I wish the earth would take me under. You people here are the only people who know this and now my wife who is reading this post. I keep all of this almost totally supressed. The only relief I have ever gotten is the brief yet costly clarity and energy that comes with opioid use.

I use the drugs and immediately my mood softens. My head begins to clear and cloud lifts. There is a twinkle in my eye. I look at my wife and child feeling much deeper love inside my heart. Where there was apathy comes compassion. Where there was sloth comes a genuine desire to help others.  I ask myself,  is this really so bad.  I mean is what I am doing really so god damn bad as to deserve the condemnation of so many. This is what I had expected from an antidepressant drug. I never get it. Only more fog and more fatigue. If it did I would never use a drug again. There is a much better person inside of me that is clouded by some type biochemical imbalance inside my brain. Probably caused by my heavy drug use at such an early age. If that is true than it can probably be cured or at least treated much more effectively.  I am sure better treatment will develope.  I just hope it happens in my lifetime.

But maybe I am just fooling myself. If everyone in the world feels the same way then please tell me. I will resign myself to a lifetime of silent fatigue, apathy and dispair.

Peace

[rinconmann]

Thought I would share and hope it helps:

I have manic depressive disorder (category 2 for those of you that know about these things). I have also been an addict for most of my life. Pot since 14 and lately, narcs, 5 years. I see a pychiatrist and have for 3 years when my divorce triggered severe depression, I was diagnosed with bi-polar, not just depression. I have found that Narc depression sucks super bad and feel lucky that I have the back up of an anti-depressant to regulate my chemistry better. I am in the final stages of quiting from a year on Bupe, a year on morphine, a year on methadone and now using norco in lower and lower doses if I can control my intake which I do OK on.

I took only Lithium for 2 years which is the gold standard for my case. It is a naturally occuring element in the universe and one of the 4 elements that was present at the start of time (hydrogen, helium, dueterium and lithium) It kept any depression at bay and let me sleep at night rather than staying up working for 2-5 days in a row in my lab. Unfortunately I started getting severe acne on my back which did not get properly discovered until I had bad scaring on said back. I lift weights and the Dr. tought it may be high testosterone. I am now on Valproic Acid for the bi-polar and wellbutrin for the depression. The prozac class of drugs (called SSRI's for seritonin re-uptake inhibitors) can cause sexual disfuntion so my doc elected the wellbutrin as it causes the opposite sexual function he said. My buddy is on Paxil and it does cause lack of sex drive which for a narc user means double whammy for the sex. Anyways, FYI, the guy that invented prozac won a nobel prize for his work on this drug and for alot of people it is a miracle.

Bottom line! I MUST get out of my house to avoid depression otherwise I sit and trip and get lonely (no girlfriend or wife). So get out often if only to drive and go outside. I also think you may want to see a psychiatrist about the drug addiction and chemical imbalance from it. They don't Rx any narcs and you need to get over the stigma of seeing one. These people are M.D.'s and specialize in the 2nd largest organ in the body, the BRAIN. Since we load ourselves up and **** up our brains these Docs are the ones to see. I think an anti-depressant has helped. FYI, true depression is clinically classified as 2 or more weeks of depression. The 2-3 days from post heavy narc use does not meet that. See someone if you have had it for 2+ weeks. It has been a great thing for my life.

[cleanman]

I have just had my 35th birthday,after spending 17yrs on opiats ,I think the last of the Naltrexone is nearly out of my body,I can feel the deprssion lifting.I feel for you man, it has taken me nearly 2yrs but I will never give up fighting.MAN I wish my ex-wife and son were here to celebrate with me tonight,still never look back.Cheers.

[Bodymechanic]

Congradulations on your 2 years clean.  I pray that your recovery contines.  In my case I have gone well over 5 years but the fog never cleared and I never found restful sleep again.  I finally threw in the towel. I was never really "normal" even when I was a young child. I may be an exeptional case. I hope that my little girl did not inherit my genetics. Did the naltraxone do anything for your depression, mood or brain?

Peace

[puma]

I mus be having a shitty week or something but I have to agree with Bobymechanic. I am so sick of feeling like ****. Like him

[puma]

BD and CM,

Sorry for the double post, as it is late here and the computer is freaking with what I have to say.

Like BM, I also have been off drugs and alcohol for years at a time and still feel like ****. I took the anti's and had too bad of side effects without much response, still too much pain.

I have almost tried to kill myself so many times in typhoons and t-storms and I still wait for that Super-Typhoon to do it for me. I pray very soon, this is the time of year here!!!! I am fine when on pain killers, but nothing else works. I have never even taken anything stronger than Codiene except at surgery in which I just slept.

I despise alcohol as I got so addicted I was violent when withdrawing and the seizures and DT'S suck, you talk about mind-f#@k!

I took Codiene responsibly for eight years with no problems until the doctor moved. Then no others would prescribe it. It was only Codiene for cying out loud! I only took two 30 mg pills a day at that time. Later, after a long drought, I was given 10- 30 mg pills of straight Codiene a day plus the 10 mg Klonopin, but forced to detox last February as that doctor was moving too.

Now I am ready to murder I am so pissed at these holier than thou pieces of **** they have here that think because I once was on the booze, I am always a suspect for drug addiction. I have several diagnosed conditions for treatment but this system here is starting to F@#K up. I have never taken illegal drugs inlcuding the simple joint. But booze which is legal now labels me a permanent addict, and I never even drove when drinking.

I just want to feel good mentally and physically and if I can not find it soon, someone will be paying the price and it won't be me looking for the online pharmacies!!!!!!!!

Ready to kill or die!!!!!!!

Chatahan.........Wildcat- on the Shake and Break, Road to Nowhere, Crash and Burn and Landslide to Disaster!!!

Maybe part of my next CD if I'm still around.

[suzieneedshelp]

As for being alone: I have always enjoyed that time and made special arrangements to be sure I got it.  Even when I was a child I started taking long hot baths.  Maybe candles, a glass of oj in a wine glass to feel special.  Or take a long walk by the beach  alone or with a big golden retriever at your side.  Now that is heaven!  And then there was my gardening.  That was my therapy.  I even became a Georgia Master Gardener at the Atlanta Botanical Gardens.  I would garden every day for at least an hour after before and/ or after work and several hours on the weekend.  That was my meditation.  When I garden I do not worry or think about anything but the task at hand.   My mind is clear;  focussed on only what I am doing moment by moment.  It is so concrete.  You use your hands and see the results unfolding over time ten fold.  But the immediate results are very rewarding.  Having cleared a piece of land, tended and enriched the soil and then planted some flower  or vegetable seeds which you know will come up soon with all their glory and splendor for yours and everyones daily enjoyment, whoever passses by.  Then my headaches started to get impossible.  No matter what I would do, I would get a severe headache gardening. I tried taking frequent breaks. I tried drinking lots of water.  Wearing a hat for the sun.  Not leaning over.  Nothing would prevent my headaches from being so severe after gardening that I had to stop.  It is a huge loss in my life.
   I have never been a party girl. More one on one.  Enjoy people at a deeper level not just bs or chit chat. But I found as I became an addict after suffering severe chronic pain (headaches)  this time alone became less enjoyable, less "planned" and more just vegging out.  Losing contact with people all together.  I really wanted to have people over but my husband did not.  So I became more isolated.  So often I would just lie down and have ice on my head.  I had an unhappy marriage which did not fascilitate much of anything in my life.  
So now I fill my time with too much time on the computer.  But I enjoy the potential no nonsense/no pretenses contact with people on  line.  I have not taken a relaxing bath in years except for one night when Jess told me to.  I cannot garden.  And I am an opiate addict.
Soon I will go through withdrawal.  If only I could resume my gardening.  It brought so much joy and peace to my life.
May you find a peaceful activity that you can meditate on.
Suzie

[Bodymechanic]

Have you tried ultram.  It was originally developed as an antidepressant. It worked even better for me than the opiates for over a year. Then I found out (here) if you take a bunch at a time it is a great buzz. So I payed the price for abusing the medication that truely brought me a much better quality of life.  I have very recently made my wife the drug keeper and I have slowly reduced my tolerance. I can do very well on 4 per day. My goal is to get back down to 2 per day. Keep in mind, this medication is habit forming but so are antidepressants, hormones, blood pressure medications ect. It is very cheap and easy to get over the internet without a prescription if you search around a bit and stay away from the US pharmacies.  It will cost you around $50.00 for 100 50mg tabs. That would be a month supply if you don't abuse it. I think this may bring you a miracle if you do not abuse it. It is definately a better option than hurting yourself or someone else.

Peace

[puma]

(Bodymechanic),

Yes, I am on Ultram or I already would have been dead when typhoon Chatahan came along shortly followed by Halong back in July. I did stand out in the eyewall, what a rush!!!!!

I see another one forming near the Dateline, even with Saipan's latitude, perfect for this time of year!!!!!

The Ultram has helped tremendously but it is not all that strong and I do not want to abuse it. It works most of the time but not always. When I do hard outside work which is my only option at this point, I add Ibuprofen. I have Fibro and Lupus so when I cut grass even for one hour, I can barely walk once I sit down. I may have back problems but no insurance and no way of getting the help I need at this point. Thanks for the input though.


(Suzy),

Yes, I love gardening, in fact I did some this morning, before going to church. I have a big mowing project tomorrow which will take me two to three days as I have no partner. Unfortunately my dog does not know how to help bushcut!!!!!!! I take him along for the ride though to keep me company. My cats always miss me. I am already contemplating my pain tomorrow as my Doc told me not to take the big jobs. The economy here sucks so no choice if I want to eat!!!!!

It's always easy for the rich Docs to say though.

The election is in two days, so we'll wait and see if anything changes. Can't get any worse than the last administration.

I think I am just in a mood as I had bad dreams last night and woke up in an anxiety attack big time. First time in along time.
Thanks for your nice discription of serenity, something I hope to have soon, I don't know what they'll call the next one. I'll call it Super-typhoon I need you so badly!!!!

Take care,


Chatahan--------Wildcat

[Francoise]

Have any of you folks who are depressed tried someof the new anti-depressants like Effexor?

I have a constant low-level background depression that is consequent on being on the Duragesic patch - you know, apathy, anhedonia, listless, no interest in anything. And these feelings peak on day three of the patch. But when I got on the Effexor, I felt so much better. This is the first time I've ever had an anti-depressant work. Perhaps Effexor would work for you too.

I really do feel for people who are anxious and depressed. I've been there so many times. And I tend to want to help "fix" everyone who's depressed. I know I can't, but I can let you know about these new antis.

francois

[DIRTBAG]

Thank you Jess for the computer info before I left, I just figured out how to get on line here at my hotel, I'm on day 3 and its not bad I'm sweating and achy but its not bad being away and not having any deadlines.  I don't have time to read the posts just to check in I'm going home on Thursday and I'm taking my receipe.  Where is mrstracy, I hope all of your pain is bearable today I'm so proud of myself right now.  Peace dirtbag/peagravel/longhauler

[athena]

Good morning all
I just wanted to put in my 2 cents about depression.I have suffered with it most of my life.No matter how well my life was going I felt as if there was a dark cloud hanging over me.I would always tell my husband that"something bad is about to happen,I just dont know what"I was never even sure what I felt scared or depressed about!The opiates took that fear and depression away though and thats how I became addicted.I wish science could come up with a drug that works like opiates on the brain.It would probably change my life(or lack of one) lol
Chatahan,im sorry your having such a sucky day.I know what you mean about feeling so frusterated!Maybe if you vent here for a while you'll start to feel a little better.Your always so upbeat but sometimes we need to get the anger and frustration out.
Francoise,my doc just started me on effexor.I hav'nt taken it yet because Im afraid it will make me tired.Did it have any negative effects when you first started it?thanks for listening all.have a good day.

pixi

[athena]

Good morning
Day 3 wow.Im so proud of you!your almost through the worst of it.Im so glad it's not too bad for you.post when you can and keep us up on how your doing.you are in my prayers.

pixi

[hellbent]

Just want to say that for me this thread is what it's about. You people are baring your ******* souls here, telling the truth, and trying to help each other out. I've already put my .02 cents on the topic(s) in question, but wanted to say hang in and keep communicating.

[Bodymechanic]

Effexor is another medication that works on the serotonin system.  I believe for many this is not the cause of the problem. For me it does give me a temporary boost but makes the insomnia worse. In the end this makes me even more depressed and tired.  I don't think that I nor many other depression sufferes have serotonin related depression.  If that was true, I for one, would not be here, my problem would have been solved a long time ago. I believe our problem is either low dopamine and/or low endogenous endorphin levels.  This would easily explain the lack of responsiveness to standard antidepressant medication and the fact that it makes so many even worse.  It would also account for the insomnia, fatique and pain.  I think this is the exact mechanism for fibromyalgia. It fits the pattern perfectly insomnia, fatigue and pain. I have seen a number of fibromyalgia patients and I can never get them more than temporary relief. The reason I think is that I am working on their bodies and the real problem is in their heads. I feel like I am so close to the solving this problem but I do not have the resources or the power to pursue any reasonable study.  I cannot understand why with so many suffering from pain, depression and addiction that this very reasonable theory has not been tested and the problem solved.  Surely I am not only one to have thought about this.  For whatever reason, I believe our government and our medical system has no intention of solving the addiction problem in this country. Someone is getting rich keeping it going and that really pisses me off.

Peace

[suzieneedshelp]

Ty for the positive feedback.  I always enjoy your posts. Yes, in this country addiction is looked at as a criminal entity not the disease it is.  If only there was more compassion and a real effort to research and discover the true causes and cures.  But instead, this conservative country wants to simply assume we are all just out to get high and are lazy losers.  To go to the Dr. and seek pain relief and be looked at like you are just a drug seeking addict is truley horrid, humiliating, and destructive to the soul.   I do not see an end in sight.  It will be eons in the future before we are sophisticated enough as a society to truley care for the addicts overwelming illness and tremendous accompanying needs.
Take care all of you and peace to your life when ever/ where ever you can find it!
Suzie

[groovygirl]

One of my docs does not think addiction is a disease, and unfortunately there are many others who feel the same way. There apparently isn't enough evidence to support the belief.  

My doctor thinks it's about choices.  He says there are too many labels which leads to too many excuses.  He thinks it's all about choices.  You can choose to smoke...yes it is addicting, but you can choose to quit.  You have to have your priorities in line, and then make a decision.  

I don't agree with him 100%, but I do think that if there is a label slapped on something such as ADHD, it gives parents and kids an excuse to slack off.  When I was a kid, there wasn't ADHD - there were kids who didn't pay attention...kids who had trouble paying attention.  I was like that, but my parents kept on my case about it, the teachers did too...I learned to study and actually try hard.  If they had just put me on meds, I never would be where I am today.

Anyway, I don't know what made me go off on this subject...guess I'm just rambling.

[cleanman]

In answer to your question,I think that Naltrexone made me more depressed than ever and although I can't prove it, was a major factor in a suicide attempt.I really feel I am in limbo land because although I no longer feel suicidle,I feel so down and tired.You say you through in the towel after 5yrs,would you say  life was better during the 5yrs than life now?.I have tried/had so many ssr's and still have psychological therapy,I'll give it another year or so,I just hope inside I have the strength to fight 13 rounds.Sorry if this scares any one in early recovery but I just had vent it out,anyway I'm just one person everyone is different and recovers in many different ways.Cheers.

[Sundown]

It sounds like your doctor never learned about addiction medicine and the medical therapies that have been developed over the 10 years. While a person may "chose" to start using a drug, the physical addiction that develops is hardly a "choice". It is a real biochemical event. It's doctors like that who discourage addicts from getting the real help they deserve.

As far as treating ADHD, while clearly "overdiagnosed", for those children who truly suffer from it medical attention can make a huge difference in the quality of their lives. To suggest they just need to "toughen up" is like telling a heroin addict to just "deal with it". Now that we are in the 21st century, it doesn't make sense to step back to the past and deny anyone the help for whatever they suffer from, if treatments are available.

We are all responsible for our actions, and for an addict seeking help is a choice. But once they have made that choice, they deserve all the help that can be offered, rather than thrown back to their addiction.

Sundown

[suzieneedshelp]

Good to see you Mariposa.  Was wondering where yu were today.  Although I have to agree with Sundown.  My daughter is ADHD and is not on meds by our choice. She must go to special school and learn strategies to compensate. The literature documents that their brains are very differnt structurally and chemically.  You may have compensated on your own.  As for addiction being a disease; Yes it is.  Yes we make choices but our brain chemistry is different so that when we take meds for pain, we want more than the "non predisposed to addiction person".  And once we get that feeling well we want more and more due to many factors.  Everything about us is physical you know.  Our personalities are also in our brains.  Our ability to function and behave and make choices is all located physically in our brains.  I took several Doctoral courses in Neuropsychology.  And I was a Speech Pathologist  who worked with brain disorders (stroke, head injury) and so I saw personalities drastically change due to physical damage.  Anyway, we must all as addicts, seek to inform the public and the medical profession.  It will be a long road not traveled  by anyone but us, cuz no one else will care enough to.
Peace everyone...
Thx,
Suzie

[smalltown]

I have just joined this site.  Everything you said could have been me speaking.  I too feel like I am fighting gravity when I am not taking, which is not often as I feel so shitty when I don't have anything.  I live in a small town and am nervous about approaching my Dr, whom by the way never hesitates when I ask for a RX (but I do not blame him) for help.  I want to stop.  I want to wake up in the morning and not have to take something so I can function and not feel like total hell.  I have been abusing for about 6 years and feel ready to stop.  I have tried numerous times to quit, and I sweat, want to sleep all the time, just drag myself around, but when I use, I am nicer, I go for 3 mile jogs after work, and everything seems easier.  I don't even feel a "high" anymore, just normal.  I want to approach my doctor and ask to be put on methadone, but this means admitting I have a probem, am I'm afraid to be "labled" a user, though the shoe fits.  I have tried methadone before, and it makes me feel just fine, but can this just be trading one addiction for another?  I hate feeling like this.  I am married to a wonderful man, though my 1st marriage was most likely ruined from my using.  I hate using that term "using".  People smoke pot, drink, do a lot worse than I, and like you said, is it so bad what we do?  I guess we are only harming ourselves, but how long can I keep this up?  When will it stop?  I have to stop it, and I know this.  The only time I admitted that I had a problem was to my ex-husband, who in turn divorced me, so needless to say I am literally scared to tell my husband or even doctor that I want help.  I don't want to go into rehab, I feel I have enough control over myself to be helped off the **** without going into a rehab center.  And again, I live in a small town, I am scared of people knowing.  Interesting fact though, the dr I am thinking seriously about speaking with went through rehab himself.  He used to prescribe me 60 vicodin every month, then put it down to 30 because he too admits that if they are around he'd just take them.  I finish the 30 in about 5 days.  then just wait for another 25 days to ask for a refill because he finally put on the RX that it must last 30 days.  But if I went in, I could always get him to fill it.  I'm scared, I want to stop this.  I hate the feeling of being off the ****, and being on it just makes me feel normal.  I just want to feel normal again, not wake up sweating, and so damn lethargic I can barely get my ass to work, which is another hell in itself, I too have to work with the public, and am a way better employee with some type of opiod in my system.  Sorry for the long comment, I've been silently screaming for so long, it feels good (which is sad) that others are going through this too.  I'm not alone.  What do I do?  Looking forward to your response as I felt you and I are experiencing the same hell.  Peace

[lisabet]

I think many addicts (including myself) don't take drugs to get high, but only to feel what we perceive as "normal".  Just a thought. Everyone have a good week, Lisabet

[puma]

(Pixi),

Thank you for the kind words of inspiration. I woke up in a better mood today, although I still am stressed a little. I have alot to live for but sometimes the mind can really lead us down the road to nowhere for a while. Today, I am trying to muster the energy to start my big mowing project. It's been raining on and off giving me a little time for the internet. I am glad to hear you are doing well.

(Bodymechanic),

I agree with your theories, and I do believe the big companies love to sell all of these similar antidepressants and things because it is big bucks. I took Effexor for awhile with no results. It simply did nothing. I may as well have taken a sugar pill.

(Sundown),

You are right, whatever Doctor says addiction is not a disease is completely incompetant. I was treated for adhd when I was in fourth and firth grade and all I did was fall asleep for half the day in school. If I went home for lunch, I fell asleep and never returned for the day. That went on for two years until I started refusing to take anymore meds. It was simply my abusive environment at home that made me so nervous and rowdy at school.
Docs back then did not recognize abuse even though I described it over and over and they made me feel like I was asking for it. A child does not ask to be yelled at or beaten or sexually abused etc. These Docs that still believe that **** are probably pedophiles!!!!, or just plain stupid fools. I'll challange anyone of them if they wish!!!!! If I was old enough at the time, I would have beat my mom's psychiatrist who tried to blame me for attracting my dad by wearing shorts during the summer months when I was only 11 or 12!!!! How sick. If he was still alive today I would beat him, but I am sure he has died, good ridance to a piece of ****, named DR. Lieberman near Chicago. He even blamed me for my mom's depression! That was her own physiological makeup, I had nothing to do with. Maybe I was not my dad's real daugther because after a strong seizure I developed the knowledge of fluent Native American Indian. My mom was hospitalized and even received shock treatment back then when I was born and up until about 1 to 1/2 years. Back then they didn't talk about those things. My sister and brother 6 and 5 years older respectively went to my grandmothers while I went to who knows where?

I am sure all this **** has affected me although I put it behind me along time ago and supressed it because you cannot change the past, only learn from it. I had two cats then and they and nature were my only real source of spirituality and belief in God. I stayed alone always. I isolated from early on.

Man, I am really babbling big time here, I guess as Pixi said it's my time to vent. Sorry for all the negativity. I try to stay positive and out of myself and help others. But I have my moments like everyone else.

I really believe that someday the Lord will bless me with a good man and piece of mind. Maybe not all the pain relief I would like but more to live for.

I had better stop for now and get my butt in gear since the rain has stopped for now.

Take care everyone and God bless. I wish everyone a painfree day.

Chatahan.......Wildcat

[puma]

Smalltown,

Welcome to the forum, this is the place for trying to recover, discuss problems about drug and alcohol addiction and vent as to why we are where we are.

I did not see your post until after I finished mine. Vicoden has alot of Tylenol in it which is toxic to the liver like alcohol so be careful. I would prefer straight Codiene or Vicoprofen which has Ibuprofen(Advil) in it but I can not get it here.

Take care and good luck, keep posting and keep us informed.

Chatahan.......Wildcat

[Sundown]

Any shrink who would pull that kind of **** on a child is not guilty of negligence, but child abuse. That anyone would do that in unforgivable. To even think of putting a child in such a position is impossible to imagine. I hope you have reached some closure over it, because that is the kind of damage that can stay with you for the rest of your life.

I wish you peace and healing.

Sundown

[lisabet]

Chatahan - I admire your courage for speaking out about your abuse when you were a child; it must be the hardest thing in the world to do, but to talk about it is taking steps, no matter how small to begin the healing process. Many children of abuse go on to abuse drugs, alcohol, sex, ect. to try to numb the pain. You were an innocent child who was in no way "responsible" for the actions of others. Your abuser was scum and the doctor was in a way even worse for making you feel responsible for the abuse. You were not to blame. Adults are supposed to protect children, not violate them. It makes me sick.  My thoughts and prayers are with you. I'm so sorry these predators stripped you of your innocence and trust. I would like to be on some juries of some of these child predator cases; actually, they don't even deserve a trial - the bastards should just be castrated!

[lisabet]

Hi Pixi - I don't think I've ever posted to you, but I want you to know when I've seen your posts, I always make sure to read them. Your sweetness and kindness always shine through, which I think help us "strugglers" more than all the "tough love" on this board. Your post about your past abuse also has touched me; you were so wise at such a young age to be able to leave your abusive enviroment - I don't know if I would have had that much courage. The thing that hurt my heart about your story is that you tried to reach out and tell your mother, only to be abused again, in the worst way, by reaching out and not being believed. I grieve for that little child that will always be in you, reaching out for help and not being heard. My love and prayers are with you, Lisabet.....Keep posting---you, along with WitchyWoman inspire me more than you know. As of right now, I've pretty much quit drinking (2 nights out of 7 - instead of 7 out of 7)...but still having problems tapering the hydros.  As for your life---you, your pets and your son sound a lot like me! Not such a bad life, really???  :)  Take care Pixi.

[puma]

Sundown,

Sorry, I forgot to congradulate you on your 28 days clean!!!! I wish I could get to that point, hopefully one of these days or months. This forum definately has inpired me on many days and I am sure if I did it before I can do it again.

It is good to see you giving back now that you are clean.

Chatahan......wildcat

[Sundown]

Thanks! If I can do it so can you! Just keep remebering, it will get better. I didn't believe that at all, but I guess given my thoughts on drugs, I wasn't exactly rational.

Good luck,
Sundown

[athena]

Thanks for your sweet post.Im glad to see you back.You seem really upbeat today.
What a big accomplishment in cutting your drinks down to less than a third.Give yourself a pat on the back girl!One step at a time right?
Your post really touched me.I could see my childhood through your eyes and realized that YES it was bad.I guess I needed to admit to myself that I didn't grow up with a brother named beaver and that normal families do not go through this. Kinda like an addict,you got to admit that there is a problem before you can get to the solution.I just didn't realize how much it still haunted me.I have forgiven my mom and she has really tried to make up for everything.I think she was just as scared as I was.(well,not quite), Im trying to be gracious.lol
Anyway,you hang in there,you will get past this addiction.We are all in your corner.I will also keep you in my prayers.

pixi

[athena]

Your right
It's not a bad life at all.It's really peaceful most of the time.Animals are wonderful.Oh yeah,kids are ok too.lol

pixi

[puma]

(Lisabet),

You also have very kind and encouraging words for many, so give yourself some credit too. Sorry for the (tough love) on this board. I know I have appeared so offbeat but I guess I am frustrated with myself lately because of the change in Docs a couple of weeks ago and we don't see eye to eye at all and he is all there is available at this time.

You cut down on the booze, that is a good start. Unfortunately my anxiety attack the other day led to a slip these past few days and I am down on myself about it. I have started and stopped drinking so many times, I wish I could get back to that two year period of sobriety I had 1 1/2 years ago. I hate to admit a relapse, yet again, but it is the truth and time to fess up. This thread may have been a tough one, but I think I see some things in a different light now. Take care, and God Bless.

(Pixi),

You too are always an inspiration no matter what seems to be going on. I read all of your posts as they help make me feel more positive even when I am really down. Thanks for being here. Say hi to your family for me, son, cat and guinea pig!!!! Animals are great comforters. I now have 10 cats and one dog. I have a son too but he was abducted by the father, my ex-boyfriend at age 1 and 1/2 years old. I had to leave the boyfriend because he was into drugs and started stealing instead of working to support his habit. I was straight as an arrow at the time and did not want my son to have that around him so I left with him to another apartment. Two months later the father came and took him from the daycare and I have not seen him since. His name was changed and he was taken out of state. The Florida cops were useless even though I had a good county job in Fort Lauderdale. Anyway I liked your comment in an earlier post saying that we both need to (get a life)LOL. I have heard rumors that there are still a few good men left, we just must be lookin in the wrong places!LOL. I will be praying for you and the others as well.

Chatahan.........wildcat

[athena]

Well,since you had the courage to speak up so will I.My stepfather started molesting me when I was 12 yrs old.I was too afraid to tell my mom on him so i kept my mouth shut untill at 15 I found out he had moved on to my younger sister.I blew up,yold my mom and she asked me why i would lie like that.Ok,i guess I expected that but when my mom asked my sister(in front of my stepfather, she looked confused and said"I NEVER told you that!I moved in with my older sister that night and never moved back.I got 3 jobs,finished schoo;,went on to nursing school etc.
i just never felt good about myself though.I felt like I was wearing a sign.I keep to myself alot and hav'nt even accepted a date in 5yrs.Anyway,im sorry that you had to live with this too.I really think it does more damage to our self esteem than we know.We are not them!There is nothing wrong with us and it was'nt our fault!This is what we must keep telling ourselves and learn to believe it or theres always going to be some substance out there to help us feel ok about ourselves.
Sorry to ramble.you are in my prayers.

p.s
My friends consist of my son,my cat and our guinea pig.Man I need a life.lol Lets try harder to get one.........

[athena]

omg the typos.lol it's 1am and past my bedtime.I may turn into a pumpkin!

pixi

[blueiyes]

wow, what honesty. I have been on the internet doing research on drugs... and found this chat... I am always looking as I have had severe depression my whole life...so I used and drank at an early age. Got sober at 23...lived 5 years suicidial as I was told I was not sober if I took antipressants. had a miscarriage and was either going to get treatment for my depression or kill myslef. None work great, but being on something is always better than nothing.
Now I hurt my back and they of course are now prescribing a drug addict vicodin and muscle relaxers ... and of course I am loving them. went through them like candy... hey it said take as needed. So I am already scared. A drug addict with pain.. real pain... and they can't tell me why and they aren't doing anything but giving me drugs ... and then of course, they don't want to give me the drugs anymore. I don't want them, but I don't want to be in pain............. this situation is just such a set up to ruin the frickin life I have worked so hard to get........have almost 12 years sober... any advice... is there any pills that help the back and aren't addictive. I can't take ibuprofin as my stomach cant take it. he did give me vioxx but not sure if it helped. couldn't tell. I have been addicted to codiene before... for about a year and a half, had a doctor that was free with the pills.... and in the end I couldn't read, couldn't think straight, was way spacey. my psychiatrist looked back at my phamacy record and couldn't believe how much he gave ... a 90 lbs girl recovering from a suicide attempt... said it was going to take along time to clean it out... took a good 6 months for the spaceness to go away. It sucked I knew I was spacey, made me paranoid to go out.... I don't want to do this again... but my back burns and I need some relief some time.... any advice. Reading your shares already helped, made me feel way less alone........... most people don't understand. Not even in AA........

[Sundown]

I suffer from treatment resistant depression and over the few years I turned to vicodin to mask the emotional pain. I also have medical conditions that "legitimised" my use, but I finally ended up taking up to 50 a day of vike ES (not exactly a dose needed for my physical pain). The sick joke of it was every time I saw my shrink and said I was depressed and getting  more cluster headaches, he gave me more vikes. Finally, about 2 months ago, I realized how I was killing myself and that I guess I hit "bottom".

I found a new shrink (after seeing one who wanted to hospitalize me and detox me and start ECT shock therapy which I really didn't want to do), went on aggresive (aggressive) antideprressant medication and decided I could stop my abuse with the support I was getting from this forum. I started just reading this forum and found strength and inspiration to take that step. Today I am 28 days clean, on my new antidepressant meds and feel like a different person. I don't think I ever felt this good in my life, ever. I've gained back about 20 pounds and started exercing again. I find that my clusters seem to have gone away since my depression has lifted.

Your deciding to post here is a huge step at beginning to face the problems you have. I have found people here who understand and support me. It took me until just a few days ago before I would even post (just read before). But after being helped so, I knew I needed to give back.

All I can tell you is you need to face all the issues you suffering from honestly and openly, your addiction, your depression, and your back pain. Finding a shrink and a pain med specialist who can help you find help for the depression, addiction, and non-narcotic pain relief is probably the best place to start. I also have to ask, have you had a CT/MRI of your back that shows real damage? I ask because not all back pain comes from spinal damage, and sometimes depression can cause a host of physical symptoms. If that is true, treating the real problem may offer you more pain relief than vicodin or codeine ever will.

It's not easy, but I hope you see there a folks here who have been through what you are, and you are not alone. That itself helped save me and get me into recovery.

Good luck and use this forum to help you find your way. It's been a huge source of support for me.

Sundown

[Sundown]

By the way, using antidepressants does NOT mean you are not sober. I've heard of that issue come up in AA before, yet by their own statements (in the "big book") clearly state that taking medications for real reasons like depression has NOTHING to do with your clean time. If you ever attended a group or even a med profesional who told you that, they were WRONG. Depression kills, and geting treatment saves lives, so don't listen to those who really don't understand that. Know that you need to do to help yourself, not listen to prejudiced advice from "purists" who have no understanding of brain chemistry or psychiatry in 2002.

Sundown

[puma]

To all the people that gave words of encouragement and support,

I want to thank each and everyone of you whom gave me support and words of deep encouragement. I really needed to feel some positive feedback lately.

(Pixi), I am sorry you had to suffer the same dilemna, I agree with (Lisabet) that these vultures that feed off of the innocent people, especially children, should be castrated!!!

Maybe some of the rapists and pedophiles out there would wake up and smell the coffee and think of the consequences if that was a mandatory sentence.

When authorities whom people are taught to trust, such as parents, doctors, psychiatrists, police, etc. take advantage of their power, they are the worst offenders and I am sure justice will be served to them at one time or another. All we can do is pray and try to get over the past traumas, although that is easier said than done. I have received more insight and encouragement here on this forum than with any psychiatrist or doctor I have seen.

I wish everyone a good day today, (night here),LOL and a better day tomorrow.

(Blueiyes), Welcome to the forum, you can really get the feel of the real world here, no phoney rah, rahs, like at A.A. meetings you referred to. Keep posting and take care,

Chatahan........Wildcat

[taeme]

I too was sexually abuse as a child.  It happened first at the age of 3 by my male babysitter, I don't know how long it continued but that episode ended only when as a young child I had the courage to tell my mom despite his treats.  Even though I was very young I can still remember quite clearly was he did to me.  Several other times growing up I was sexually abused by different people.  It made me afraid to speak up, as a consequence I never was true to myself I just wanted to fit in, to be liked.  I really didn't develop my own sense of identity and never really knew who I was, what I liked or didn't like.  After highschool I was lost I didn't know what to do.  I had hidden behind being the fun, outgoing always someone elses shoulder.  Behind it all I was unhappy, develop an eating disorder that I continue to struggle with.  I didn't know anything about myself as a person, I relied almost completely on my looks. So now I am struggling with who I am. I believe this is where I need to start to begin to recover and stop hidding behind the drugs.  Just thought it might help someone to know they're not alone.

[athena]

Good morning and welcome to the forum.You are here just in time to catch us being brutally honest.I too lost a baby(septic miscarriage) and thats when my depression really started.I had 15 surgeries to try and fix the mess of carrying a dead baby for so long.Im sorry for your loss.Have you had an MRI for your back?I am also having terrible burning and pain in my shoulderblade.The Dr. looked at me like I was nuts when I said the burning was the worst part.have you tried ultram?Some here have said it can be very addicting also.I dont think viiox will help back pain like your describing.I hope you can get the help you need for your pain.Good luck and thanx for sharing with us.

pixi

[athena]

Castration...What an awesome idea!The problem with these molesters is that they get off scott free,especially if it is a family member.I think they should be put in a prison cell with some body building axe murderers and forced to wear a tutu while singing "dont fence me in" lol
Have a wonderful day

pixi

[athena]

Good morning
i totally agree with you on the effects of being molested.It takes your innocence,your trust and your sense of security.Im sorry that you have also been through this.Yes,the trouble speaking up to others is the worst.I think it made me feel not good enough to speak up.Just keep quiet and hopefully you'll slide by unnoticed.Well,I think we know the main reason we want to use drugs now.I think i've always known that it was more of an issue than I was willing to let on.Oh yeah,it seems that once you've been molested that other molesters know .It's like wearing a sign that says"do what you want,I wont speak up"
Sorry to babble,I hope noone minds this thread,it was sure nice to get it out.I hope we are all able to overcome this shame and move on with life.Maybe this is the first step to real sobriety.
I hope you have a good day.

pixi

[Starraven]

Pixi and Chatahan..Wow, I am there with you both.  I have never told anyone of my abuse except my shrink, and my husband.  I was raped by a stranger at the age of seven years old and was forced to do other things that I dare not mention on a public board.  This happened as I was walking to my friends apartment only a few buildings down. All the while my mom was drunk and passed out on the couch while i was dragged in the woods behind our apartment building.  My father ingnored it.  Became a work a holic.  I was not sent to couseling and noone ever spoke of it again. When going back to school, I was stood in front of the class and my teacher used me as an example of "what not to do when accosted by a stranger)
When I was eight we moved to  Stowe,Vermont.  The landlords daughter ( four years older than me and we lived in an apartment on the top of a house, and the landlords lived on the bottom) used to lock me in the tool shed and have her way with me using various "tools"  (just use your worst imagination and that is what happened)  This went on for a year.  She told me that if I EVER told anyone that her family would kick us out and we would have no where to live.  (MY father worked for Maria Von Trapp and I didn't want him to have to move and lose his job) As a young and vunerable child I believed what she said.
Has this screwed me up in the head! ABSOLUTELY!  That on top of parenting my alchoholic pillpopping mother!

My antidepressants were narcotics on and off for years, but not with any kind of regularity.  I could forget and cope with my own thoughts.  Which were twisted at times.  Suicide?  Been there, tried it several times as a teen and later when my mom died.  It wasn't until I found a wonderful head shrinker that I found out this was not something I did wrong.  Slowly I am healing, but sometimes I want MY antidepressant. (My lortab)

Sorry if this was too much for some, but since everyone was being brutally honest and open I thought I would try.  I think doing this is also a form of therapy for me.

Hugs,
Suze

[taeme]

Since I was young I've always said to myself average was bad, that I'd rather be less than average, than average itself.  I guess when your fine, your not getting into trouble, but your not have incredible success either you kind of go unnoticed. I've always tried to push myself, acheive more, however I'm not as motivated as you would need to be to keep you with the activities I do, nor to the level I find minimally acceptable.  I'm a neat freak, a perfectionist, but I get burnt out and then everything crumbles for about a week (during withdrawl a couple months)then I pick up and start over, many times is the little devils that enable me to get going again and feel good about it.  You could say I do to much or should ease up but I don't feel like I'm doing enough and I can't understand why "I can't just be like everybody else, satisfied."  Not that everyone is happy all the time or wants to organize the check book but at least it not like pulling teeth.  Mind you I usually do things anyway but I feel lazy, unmotivated.  I just can't stand to be lazy.  Does anyone feel like a fake? I'm thinking its because I want to be someone I'm not.  I like people but I don't want to hang out with people that I really can't just relax with and that makes me feel antisocial.  I guess I just want to actually be that fun-loving,easy going person that people are drawn to.

[Waking up]

i'm currently coming off methadone, ive had wihtdrawels for three days now and it's not letting up, before i go crazy can anyone tell me if soma will help with the withdrawels

[taeme]

Soma as you probably know is another one of those demons.  Since its a muscle relaxer it may help a little. Have you taken this medication before?  What does it do for you?

[athena]

I am sorry that you had to go through such a terrible ordeal.It really messes with your self confidence huh?My mom also liked to hit the bottle.she was sleeping one off when I woke her up to tell her about my stepfather.I  am glad you have found a doc you can open up too.It really helps.I think using hydro kept my mind from revisiting those days.now that im not abusing them,i think about it more often than I want to.At least we are facing it and trying to move on.good luck and god bless.

pixi

[groovygirl]

I wasn't looking to argue.  I was giving a different point of view...I think that is why they call it "practicing" medicine.  They don't have all the answers, and neither do I.  I do know that there are a lot of labels flying around that shouldn't be there.

[Sundown]

I didn't think you were arguing at all. I think we all agree on the physical and biochemical nature of addictions. How to treat any illness depends on a person's preference and the medical advice available at the time. In that sense, we do make choices about what is best for each of us. I don't think there is any "one" solution to any medical problem, and that is what makes medicine as much an art as a science.

Sundown

[Bodymechanic]

I agree with Sundown. It seems that for many of you there were traumatic events at a very young age eventually led to your addiction. If this has now become a biochemical problem rather than a problem of maladjustment then the problem must be solved biochemically. If the source of the problem is maladjustment or even post traumatic stress the standard psycological therapy approach may work well.

I believe myself to be a classic biochemical case. As far back as I can remember into childhood I had anziety and then depression. I had a fear that I was going to die at any moment. I was the classic case of what is now known as ADD. I had a good upbringing with parents that loved me.  There was never any abuse or mistreatment done to me. I found out at a very early age that drugs made me feel better.  By the time I was 18 yr old I was addicted to methadone. I think the early drug use made things even worse.  Here I am today almost 30 years later fighting the same problem and finding that the only thing that make me feel normal is an opioid. I am going to take another try at finding a better solution. I will be using myself as a guinne pig with deprenly and busbar.  It that does not work then I am out of ideas.  The psychiatrists were out of ideas a long time ago.

Peace

[groovygirl]

Why do you think some addicts are able to quit, and some cannot.  Do you think for some it is mind over matter?  Do you think some just cave, because that is what they have always done in other areas of their life?  

Addicts steal and lie usually.  A lot of times, they don't let morals stand in the way of a fix.  Do you think that part of addiction is a choice or do you think that addicts have no control over lying and stealing?  It's interesting to me, and I wondered what you thought.

[suzieneedshelp]

Everyone has stolen or lied at some point in their lives.  Does that mean they are amoral?  Addicts are desparate people.  Most of the addicts on this board also suffer chronic major pain.  So...that makes them even more desparate.  Who realy choses to steal or lie?  I believe its not a conscious malicious choice in most cases where  the addict is concerned.  At least not in the aberant criminal sense who is just seeking to destroy or hurt or gain materially.  The addict  must support their habbit and get pain relief!  Shear will power is always an entity that we can not quantify.  What makes some succeed in getting and staying clean and others not?  Hmmm.  Probably the combination of good/ bad Dr. , emotional support sytems, severity of their disease as well as their readiness and desire to quit.
If we knew the perfect formula for success we could be millionaires!
Peace to all!
Suzie

[Sundown]

I think that addiction changes peoples thoughts and actions. The desire to satisfy that addiction will make us all lie and steal (particularly lying to the most important person, ourselves). I don't believe anyone sets out and says "I'll think I'll become an addict. It seems like a really good thing". Rather, we fall into it trying to escape from whatever in our lives is damaged or incomplete. I do think that our addictive minds are, by their nature, geared towards avoidance, and so we stumble into a drug that lets us avoid that necessary part of life--dealing with lifes problems with all their pain and resolving those issues. Instead we addicts evade and escape within ourselves, convicing ouselves that we are just taking the pain away. Eventually, we all end up either here trying to recover, or we die.
We are all responsible for our actions. We either recover however we have to that works for each of us, or we continue down that road of self destruction.

Sundown

[groovygirl]

Well, the questions I asked sure do hit some sensitive spots don't they?  Lying, stealing, etc are all things I have done to get my druges, and I do have chronic pain.  I had to put thought into those actions...I had to go against everything I've been taught, but I CHOSE to do those things.  Stealing is a crime, so now I'm technically a criminal...addiction or not...the law doesn't care.  I have run out of meds and chosen not to steal also.  I was just as desperate, but I chose to suck it up and deal with it.  I stopped lying...yes it was harder to tell the truth - much harder, but I CHOSE to do it.  I decided I would try to get clean...try to not let my desperation allow me to make immoral decisions.  

I cannot decide what i think about whether addiction is a "disease" or not.  I have learned over the past few months that I have a lot more power and control than I had ever believed.  Mind over matter...we can solve a lot of problems by simply deciding to do something or not do something.  One is obviously much harder than the other, but it isn't impossible.

[puma]

Hello all,

First, I am sorry for all of you whom have gone through the torments of being abused, taken advantage of in a way that often destroys one forever until death. Not all are lucky to find the help they seek. Health care has not been the top agenda on most politicians lists especially when it involves drugs.

Wow, I think we all told the truth here and that's what counts. That is the beginning to our self realization. I had been pushing it off deep into my subconscious for decades.

(Mariopsa), I may be wrong, but you seem to have a very bad impression of addicts like we are all street bums stealing for a fix and eating out of trash cans. That's what I picture with your last couple of posts.

I have never stolen anything except when I was eight years old I took some candy out of a bag at a store and got caught. I was so embarrassed and humiliated that I never did that again. I have strong moral values about lying as well. I always tell the truth whether someone may get offended or not if I am asked.

If, however a person I trust, lies to me, than I no longer feel that compulsion to tell that person the truth ever again since I feel they have no respect for the truth and therefore do not deserve the respect of me telling them the truth after they lied to me. I usally don't deal with those people again.

(Pixi and Blueiyes), I am sorry for your losses in addition to the other sufferings you've endured. I will be praying for everyone here.

As far as biochemical or only psychological, then we need to ask, is Fibromyalgia real, chronic fatigue, is cancer caused by our own minds trying to kill ourselves slowly, etc. I believe addiction is mainly biochemical, for there are many abused people who go the other direction and stay clean and do good to correct the wrong they feel was inflicted upon them.

I have proven biochemical depression, anxiety, Fibro and seizures. I still force myself to work anyway however, I have never gone hungry or eaten from the trash. I own my own home from hard work, I simply would like to feel better physically with no pain and sleep good at night not tossing about and never going into levels 3 and 4 sleep, the deep stages. That was discovered during a sleep test which also recorded two tonic-clonic seizures. I suppose those are all in my head too.LOL, PUN INTENDED. Let's even go as far as saying there is no such thing as withdrawal, that it is all in our heads, we are just imagining it all!!!! Sorry to be sarcastic here, but that (old fashioned, it is all in our imaginations, hypochondriac) **** was all I heard while growing up and in my teens after a severe case of Mononucleosis and even until today by this latest moronic doctor I am seeing. I hope they terminate him after today's election!!!! He should go back to India and help his own people with this mind over matter ****.

I do think we have choices to help ourselves, but like an earlier post way up the thread indicated, when we seek help and cannot get it than there is trouble. Sorry for really babbling and babbling. I am glad we all got to vent our feelings and hope it helps us all in what is contributing to our addictions. And that we can move forward in recovery.

Thanks for reading is you have gotten this far.

Chatahan.......wildcat

[OxyDout]

I was just reading this thread, this isn't drug related, just wanted to say you are a GREAT WRITER, your posts stick out when I read all the way through, do you have a writing background? your statements flow very well, are clear and concise(sp) just thought I would let you know.

gwh

[puma]

Gwh,

Your interpretation of what is drug related or not is BS. You must want the Rah Rah **** all the time. Go to N.A. OR A.A for that. If you read the thread as you indicated, almost each statement whether you agree or not, relates directly to drug abuse or the causes that may lead to it. Get a grip.

Chatahan......wildcat

[Sundown]

Thanks for your kind comments. I don't have a background as a writer, but my ex wife was and I used to edit her work. One of the problems was, she never liked my style, and I didn't like hers :). I do try to write what I truly believe and feel, and if it helps even one person who comes here, then i feel I have given back just as everyone else here gave to me.

Thanks,
Sundown

[athena]

How awful to have your son taken from you like that.I can't even imagine the emotional pain that you have been through.How long since he was taken?Is there any hope of him finding you?I will be praying for you and him.
As for the relapse,don't be too hard on yourself.You seem to be going through a rough time right now and you don't need to be angry at yourself.I have slipped so many times that I cant count them.I am currently back on a low dose of hydro for this back problem but Im taking less than was prescribed.(for now)I know that I will always have the desire for those little devils,I just have to find a way to not give in to it.(lol) I will probably be in here complaining about withdrawl when the back pain is gone.Anyway,so you slipped,theres always tomorrow.You are always in my prayers.

pixi

[puma]

To gwh,

My apologies for over-reacting to your comment a little while ago. I had not read the earlier posts recently until today and I just noticed your post asking for support with your fathers condition and hoping not to relapse. I did read the thread that day but was so distraught myself and never have known anyone close to me who has died or was dying so I felt I could not respond intelligently since I never went through it.

Had I remembered reading the thread, I would have just ignored your statement as stress related or venting, etc. I do feel for you too as everyone here. I prayed for you after reading the post a couple days ago, but was afraid to respond.

We have never communicated before so I felt out of place to say anything. I hope things are going alright with you. I have not seen any referrals since that thread or I missed them. Please fill us in on what is happening and how you are coping. I pray you have not relapsed as I admittedly have and for much less of a reason. Please ignore my last statement to you, I took it too personally I guess. Take care and God Bless.

Chatahan........wildcat

[puma]

Pixi,

Thank you for the nice encouragement. I'll be here for you if you slip too but I think you have been doing wonderfully and remember you do have legitimate pain. I know you worry about the small aches saying, well maybe just one more! LOL

As far as my son, his name is (Forrest), named for (Man of the Woods.) He just turned 23, August 23. His father called me when he was about 16 and asked if they could come to Guam to visit. I said yes, and offered to buy Forrest a plane ticket one way and if he did not want to stay I would pay his way back. The father always controlled the phone calls. Forrest never called first, I don't think he even knew my number. I tried to get him to memorize it. He said over a four month period of talking several times he wanted to get to know me but always talked about money. He claimed to have gotten cat scratch fever and his father paid over 300,000.00 in hospital bills. I knew he was lying and was uncertain if it was even him. I offered him my lawn service since I also had the typhoon forecasting job fulltime, and offered to put him through college.

Finally, they gave up on getting money up front so he dropped out of school at 17 last I heard. Then just about six months ago which is six years later, he called himself, and asked why I abandoned him. He even asked why I never sent him presents etc. I told him all I had was his fathers attorneys number and that I was not about to send anything there. He did not remember the offers for college and admitted being in a gang and really
f%$#ed up on drugs at that time. He claimed he was going to get a cell phone and start calling so we could get to know one another. Since then, nothing. He said he was in California, but I think he is in Florida with the still addicted father.

It may not be a totally lost cause, but he was really confused and it may take much time. I tried to explain everything exactly as it happened but he was too young to remember anything and I still think he is on drugs. That's about it, I have thought about trying the internet locator, but all I know is his fathers admitted mafia attorneys name. Attorney Randolf Seigel in Miami or Fort Lauderdale, Florida. Enough for now, I am babbling again.

Maybe someday we all will be at peace with ourselves. Prayer seems to really help so I'll keep praying and I know you will too since you feel the same about it. Take care and God Bless,

Chatahan......wildcat

[blueiyes]

Thanks fr your comment back........... yeah,I do know now that taking antidepressants did not mean I was not sober... and trust me I shared about that. congratulations on the 28 days clean. Very cool. the early days are the hardest.
So far I don't consider I have crossed a line and am still saying I am sober.......... but I am a drug addict and the medication I am taking for my back is so so so tempting. ANd I know where it takes me. It is easier for me to aviod addiction then it will be to cross the line and try to get clean.......... have almost 12 years. Am just scared that I am having to take drugs for pain... I will abuse them given time. I like them, I like the effect, they make me want more.... but what to I do for my pain. I have avoided getting my wisdom teeth out for 3 years as I am scared of the meds.
I am going to stay around here to get advice. The giving the meds to a loved one to give out won't work as I do not live with anyone. I did tell my doctor I am a drug addict and he should watch out for me.

BLess everyone here, what honesty and so much kindness.

[blueiyes]

Pixi,
I am sorry for your loss. Your situation was even more difficult, I am sorry you had to experience it. I was 3 months preg. when I miscarried and still miss that baby. But I know God had other plans for him and I did nothing wrong.

You have the burning pain in your shoulder blade also. Yeah, I have done research and the numbness and burning in the shoulder blade is unusual.......... it is usually lower back. So what the hell do they think we are lying. Because me doctor kind of acts like that. It is better in the morning, then after sitting at the desk for about an hour the burn starts and by the end of the day it hurts. I take some muscle relaxers when I get home for some relief but it doesn't do much. I can only take this for a while. I can't have a burning pain in my back day in and day out.......... it will ddrive me nuts.  But I am a drug addict so if I take pain pills I will get addicted again... did before........... jesus...... used to have a food tube and would save up my pills then crush them up and shot them into my food tube to get high........ had high tolerance so had to do alot. DOn't want to go back there.........

I have 12 years sober........ great job, in my masters, dating a guy w/5 years in the program, have my family and friends respect ... would loss that all...

I am treadng on dangerous ground.

GLad I found this group, it may help me not cross the line again....

Is ultrum bad? Or should I ask for it.

[Sundown]

Thanks for your encouragement. I'm a little nrevous today as I ahve to travel for business nad it will be my first such trip clean.

If you are suffering pain and need relief, get directly to a pain specialist. Most have significant addiction experience. Lay it out honestly and explore non narcotic treatments including antiinflamatories, muscle relaxants, and even treatments like TENS (an electrical stimlulation device that can block pain). Given the thread here on ultram, I think it would be something to avoid. It's a pretty odd drug, an opiate that is a non-opiate. I have no idea how it was ever approved by the FDA as a non controlled substance. Certainly not everyone who uses it becomes addicted, but that's true about hydro, oxy, etc., and given that we are addicts (which is why we are here), it's better to avoid the temptation unless we are ready to be closely monitored in our use of drugs and STILL accept the fact we amy face withdrawl and recovery all over again.

I hope you can find a way to relieve your pain while avoiding the risks of abusing again. It's one of the toughest issues we all face here, and I hope you find help without getting caught up in abuse issues again.

Take care,
Sundown

[suzieneedshelp]

Oh my goodness.  Chatahan!  I cannot imagine losing my child.  What unbearable pain to your soul, day in day out.  A child is always in your heart and mind, never leaves for a moment.  I hope and pray that some day you will be united and get to know one another again with an ability to re-establish trust and peaceful forgiveness.  

Blueyes... when Jess (jessearpy) is not soo busy he can tell you about Ultram.  He was addicted to it big time.

Our lives are so complex and we have so much baggage to deal with.  If only we could really just live for today and conquer our demons affecting our subconsious minds.  That is what we must strive for through educating ourselves here, through support systems and na or aa.
I got to run...peace...
Suzie

[puma]

(Suzy),

Thank you for the kind words of encouragement. I used to sit and watch those reunifications on (Unsolved Mysteries) and wonder if that day would ever come. No wonder I chose to drink myself to sleep. It was easier and I could block the subconscious thoughts breaking through.

I have faith, God willing, that my son and I will be together, that perhaps he will even read this forum, not by coincidence and call again. I know his father is a computer freak, I do not know about my son. Anyway I don't want to get myself too worked up as I have a big lawn job to do and cannot afford to sit and get tempted to drink again. We all have had our share of hard knocks, it's all what I call the (sinewave of life) a mathematical saying, meaning ups and downs.

You take care, avoid those tempting little devils, and have a great day or evening for you probably!LOL Take care and God Bless.

Oh BTW- the election went well. We now have a Christian man voted in who has a good relationship with my pastor-drug and alcohol counselor. That may improve the medical conditions here I pray.

Thanks again,

Chatahan......wildcat