Wellbutrin/Zyban as a tx for addition

[counselor]

I would like to know the most recent information available for the treatment of addiction with Wellbutrin/Zyban.  I was in a one-hour siminar on antidepressants this week and the speaker mentioned Wellbutrin as a new tx for alcoholism.  My 19-year-old son is battling an addition to pain pills.  He has been in rehab, IOP and goes regularly to NA meetings, but continues to relapse. Is it possible that Zyban might help him kick this addiction?  Your response would be most appreciated.

[Brighty]

I am unable to give you any specifics on recent use of Zyban for addiction per se although the doctor may reply and know this and you may also find more information on the web or directly by contacting the pharmacetical company... they will tell you of any studies and possible approvals for particular uses.

What I am familiar with, and I think it's been widespread over the last 6 or so years, is the use of this med for specifically, nicotine addiction because of it's action on dopamine.

My husband went on this medication to quit smoking... it did not help him... I think it may have to do with both the dosing and also the personal motivation needed to pick up and make changes... he expected it to work like a magic bullet.

My information also, is that Zyban is the same as Wellbutrin SR which is the slow release formula they use for the smoking. Regular wellbutrin is not slow release and has more possibility of causing seizures because of the quick release.

An antidepressant primarily and it was noticed in studies that a side effect was that people on it just naturally cut back or quit smoking with no intention or effort. So that was how it got to be used for smoking addiction.

Hope you find more information you are looking for.
Love, Brighty

[Francoise]

Brighty is right as usual. Zyban and Wellbutrin are exactly the same drug. If it's prescribed as Wellbutrin for depression, insurance companies will pay for it. If it's prescribed as Zyban for smoking cessation, insurance companies won't pay for it. It's nice to know the ropes, the stupidity, of insurance companies, what?

I used it for smoking cessation, even though I had it prescribed as for depression for the obvious reason. However, I am dependant on oxycontin as I use a maintenance dose of it for chronic pain, and I can tell you that taking Wellbutrin for opiate withdrawal would be like taking a garden hose to the Chicago fire. There are other drugs for opiate withdrawal: klonopin, buprenorphine, and if you can  find a place outside the US for treatment, the most promising medication is ibogaine. Look it up on the internet. Treatment is available on St. Kitts. Contact Dr. Deborah Mash, University of Miami. One treatment with ibogaine seems to do the trick. If I ever have to get off my pain med, it's St. Kitts for me - or some other place that's not so expensive - if I can find one.

Best,

Frank

[siliconboy]

Wellbutrin is one of the current antidepressants that doesn't claim it's action from serotonin uptake inhibition. It's the closest the pharmo's have come to addressing the other neurotransmitter AND the endorphin issue with non-addictive/abuse potential drugs. Currently they are working on a new crop that is more specific. Two years ago the doc switched my very ADHD son from ritalin which is essentially speed with a much shorter half life than amphetamine / methamphetamine, to weelbutrin. It was a while before effective but once we got him titrated properly it "took" and is helping him. Everyone has their own blueprint of brain chemistry and what works for one doesn't translate necessarily. Any of these meds - in order to ascertain if helpful, take patience. If you don't chronical behavior ie., cravings - it is very subjective at best. From what my limited understanding of this drug is, I suspect it may be an aid for chemical dependency. I say this because it's a fairly accepted thought process in some circles that 'ALL" chemical dependency may be in some way related to an underlying condition resulting from low endorphin production. This is a very complex issue, and SPOOK should jump in and take it from here.

[Brighty]

Welcome back !!! That was knock your sox off information !!! I hope you and Luke keep posting here.

Love,Love,Brighty

[counselor]

Thanks to all for your information and support.  This is, without a doubt, the most painful and difficult situation we as parents have dealt with.  Oh for the days when it was homework issues and curfew violations.  Thanks again.  Counselor

[Thomas]

Hello, my friend,
Aren't insurance carriers wierd about meds? The same med and one, you can have it; the other, you can't. Typical! Hang in there, Francoise. You're going to be OK, man. As long as there are people who care about you .....

Thomas (Patrick)

[Thomas]

Sorry to hijack the thread, but you know how it is ... I had a rather interesting experience as the result of having another benzo-withdrawal seizure. True to form, I went through my Xanax too quickly -- ran out last week (the same week I started a high-pressure tech writing job). My wife takes Xanax from the same doctor and I further screwed myself by assuming I could refill and borrow some of hers. The doctor said no-go to both of us -- not very smart when you consider my seizure history -- but, anyway, after two days without any Xanax, I had a petit mal "absense" seizure right in front of all my new co-workers, bosses, etc. As usual. I woke up in the ambulance on the way to the ER. Of course, I assumed I had just lost another good job (and it was a very good job, too).

But, you know, people will surprise you, sometimes. My wife arrives at the ER and comes back to my room to tell me that half the company got into their cars and followed the ambulance with me in it down to the ER -- just to make sure I was OK. I was so moved I almost cried (truly). When the boss realized my company med insurance didn't start for a while longer, she told my wife that the company would pick up all my medical bills -- they valued me that much. I was humbled and more than a little overwhelmed.

Being a writer in the cut-throat software industry and an rx drug addict for more than 30 years, I'm not used to being treated even remotely like a human being by much of anyone, let alone virtual strangers. You all know what I mean: the second it becomes apparent your problem is in any way related to drug addiction, people line up for the right to take a **** on your face.

I was quite overcome, to tell you the truth. Needless to say, I owe my new friends at that company some real loyalty. When my doctor found out his staff had refused to let me come in to be seen the day I ran out of my Xanax, he reamed some major nurse ass while I stood there and watched. Something tells me I won't have any problem getting an appt after this. Anyway, I thought you guys might find this story amusing. Most places I've worked for would have just fired me for having the seizure. In fact, what's funny is, the guy who in fact did fire me for having a benzo-withdrawal seizure a few months ago is now sending me his resume asking me to help him get hired at my new company! I haven't decided what to do with him yet …

Peace.

[Thomas]

Shiny, if you're on regular doses of some good pain meds, then I personlly would be surprised if you had a benzo seizure. When I had lots if darvon and vicodin, I didn't really miss the benzos. I think I just took more of the pain meds to compensate. As long as you've got narcs, I wouldn't worry.

Wizard: the first (and worst) benzo-withdrwal seisure I've ever had was coming off of Ativan. Ativan is what they'll give you at the hospital if you do seizure. Either stay on them or come off very, very gradally. Ask any doctor. It's no secret about benzos.
Good luck.

[Francoise]

So. You're a technical writer?!? How marvelous.

I'm a technical writer too.

Actually, I've been managing technical writing groups (similar to herding cats in many respects) for the last eight years.

I thought I felt a certain sympaticoness.

Charmed, I'm sure.

Francoise

[cindi]

sorry to interrupt this thread but ihave a question and of course I could not post....ok,,,,monday I called my doc for something for pain (I asked for only enough until i could get into see her) she called me in 20 ultram  1 tablet 4 times a day...on thrusday i went to see her and she is sending me for an MRI to make sure i have not herniated any more discs and she is working on trying to rule out a few other problems...ok, anyway,  there are days when it is nealy impossible for me to walk and nights impossible to sleep due to the pain so on these "bad" days she gave me 60 vicodin ES 1 or 2 4 times a day, and then on the fairly good days when i don't need the vis but do need something she gave me 100 Ultram....2 every 4 to 6 hours  so, she did up the dose for me.  I took the ultram script to the pharmacy and even with a new script and dose increase they would not fill it....i called today and they basically said in a very demeaning tone that I had just had 60 vics filled  why the ultram?  I explained the situation etc, and they basically said they probably would not fill the ultram.... they also acted really wierd about the parafon forte they filled for me also  does anyone know if they are allowed to refuse a script if they feel that since i already have the vics why bother?  they are 2 seperate drugs and the doc said I could even alternate them,,, this is the same store that on their computers if they feel you are taking too many meds they have a screen that goes up saying  "warning"  possible drug addict.....just curious as to whether or no they are alowed to do this...is this not violating something?  oh well, just curious..thanks  love to all    cin

[pelle1985]

I don't know whether or not the pharmacies are technically "allowed" to do anything or not (probably are, sadly -- as private enterprises anywhere usually reserve the right to refuse services of any kind), but as a former prescription drug junkie, I have to ask what seems to me a fairly obvious question -- why not just go to a different pharmacy (i.e., not in the "chain" you are going to)?  Unless distance (or cost) is a factor or something. . .I mean, I used to have scrips all over town at different drug stores, usually multiples of the same and/or similar narcotics, at the same time, and never ran into any problems this way.  Not the most healthy answer, perhaps, however I *am* trying to help. . .just curious.  Let me know, okay?

Peace,
Pelle

[cindi]

I probably will end up at a different pharmacy but back in 1995 I was arrested, charged and indicted by a grand jury on 12 felonies which included theft of narcotics (diverted from the hospital where I worked) and deception to obtain a dangerous drug...i think i stated somewhere else that the board of pharmacy does not like me very much and has investigated me in various drug stores,,,I never had any illegal scripts at these store, like I said, my drugs were stolen from the hospital but,,do you think that if I did go to another drugstore, (something I very rarely do for that reason) that the pharmacy board may want to stick their noses in?   liek if they saw my name at one store and then another do you think they could start stirring up some ****?  I was told my the prosecutor that the board really wanted to see me locked up,,they hate what is called impaired nurses....thanks pelle, I appreciate your input...love to all    cin

[Shiny]

Like you I usually run out of my Xanax before I should. It will be 48 hrs. tonight from the last Xanax.  I am on 1m 3 times a day and have been taking it for about 8 yrs.  I have run out before and not had any seizures, but after reading your post I am a little worried.  Actually I knew I was going to run out so the last 5 days I cut them into 3rds and only took them when I had to.  I am also on pain meds.  The withdrawal this time dosn't seem as bad as last time (can't sleep though) do you think it's because I am taking pain meds?  Can you tell me the signs to look for before a seizure?

[Wizard]

Wow what a trip Thomas. Does Anyone know can the same seizure thing happen with Ativan (lorazapem)stoppage?
Hope all is well with you Thomas.
Peace to you and God Bless us all,
Wizard

[pelle1985]

Thanks for the brief history.  Being new here, I was not aware of your legal issues.  I wouldn't want to say for sure that the feds are *not* watching all the computer systems for possible issues with you regarding narcotics, but in this modern world of Big Brother I could not in all good conscience tell you to throw caution to the wind either.  Your post has actually helped me to discover something I will need to watch very closely in my recovery -- namely the way my mind will still turn almost instinctively to a dishonest solution to problems.  Until you presented your reasons to me for not "pharmacy hopping", the thought I am about to share as a possible solution never even entered my mind.  Perhaps your physician could, either by phone or in writing (or both, ideally), speak to the head pharmacist at your pharmacy and explain his or her rationale as far as your medication (that is, one being for maintenance and the other for breakthrough pain).  I don't know if this is feasible, but at least I am encouraged that I was able to have a "clean" and honest thought.  My personal recovery is as dependent (no pun intended) on recognizing and changing my thought patterns as it is on not taking the first drug, for if I cannot do the former, it is only a matter of time before I do the latter.  Thank you for unknowingly helping me to discover a serious danger signal tonight which I can now focus more clearly on in the future.

Peace,
Pelle

[Wizard]

Thomas, you have never failed to answer me. I love you for that.
Thank you for the Ativan warning. I will take heed of your advice when the time comes to wean down.......so many things to do....First it was the Somas, Then the Vics, now the oxy's....
when the Ativan is gone I might not know myself at all!!! ;-)
LOL
peace to you brother,
God Bless us all,
Wizard

[cindi]

The toughts are there for me also and I have to say I did consider going to another pharmacy...I still may ....the script is legal and I can have my doc call but i am really sick of these people anyway......they can check the computer system and see that it is not very often I get scripts filled for narcotics.....we all have these "dishonest" thoughts  but  if a person were normal and decided to go to another pharmacy for one reason or another would they refer to it as dishonest? so, my friend don't be hard on yourself.....love to all   cin

[Francoise]

I don't even bother with the chains. No way.

I got myself known by all the people who work for a small pharmacy in a very small little town about fifteen miles from where I live. It's NOT that they are going to do anything illegal. Far from it. But they do know me; they know my problems and my issues. And I've never gotten any bullshit from them and no lectures and no nonsense either.

In fact, I have to drive right past eight or nine chain drugstores to get to my little one out in the country. And I wouldn't change that for any amount of convenience.

As for the chains: **** 'em. If you have to use them, why not have your doctor call the people you're having trouble with and give 'em hell?

Frank

[Thomas]

you left out the most important thing: THE NAME OF THE PHARMACY. If it's a chain, it's the last one I want to walk into. Do us all a favor and reply with the name. Or, if you don't want to do it "publically," please send the answer to

***@****

I'd appreciate it. I've had some trouble with a pharmacy, lately. If you were refilling early, the Monday thru Wed pharmacist didn't give a damn and filled it no matter what. The Thurs thru Sunday pharmacists acted like it was their job NOT to fill prescriptions (a job they did well). Same pharmacy, same script, opposite outcomes!

[Thomas]

what type of stuff do you write? I'm writing what's supposed to be the be-all and end-all of on-line XML certification courses. It's been a backbreaker so far with the usual impossible deadline and one-too-many "directors."

How's the methadone working out? How are the side-effects for that stuff?

[cindi]

I have had trouble with rite aid  (the same one who said whe was not filling anymore oxycontins she was tired of it) and CVS  wall mart are pricks too..but this one was CVS,  they were total pricks about it all...I took the script back today  i can't take it anywhere else because they wrote all over the top of it,,,,"too early  filled  5/1" yada yada...I told them i want it filled and if there is a problem I will have my doc call them first thing monday...mind you this is a whole new scrip different dose and everything,,i just don't get it,,,yeah I do,,,they are all just a bunch of God Playing, goody two shoed little pricks who are probably digging into the **** themselves....sorry everyone,,my tone and attitude today is a little out of whack started off with some bad e-mail and just got worse..I think i'll go out and dig in the flowers for awhile..thanks for your input guys..i appreciate it.....love to all               cin

[Thomas]

It costs more, of course, but I never use pharmacies like Walgreens, Rite Aid or Sav-on with their intrusive computer overseers. I look for truly "private" pharmacies -- hard to find and, as I said, always charging top buck. The next trick if your employer's insurance includes computerized rx coverage -- use the insurance only for the really expensive stuff. Grit your teeth and pay "I've got no insurance" full, cash price at the few mom and pop pharmacies left around. The chain pharmacies get you two ways: one, they can see what you've purchased at other members of their same chain; two, when they log on to your insurance carrier's site, they can see everything you've ever purchased on that insurance - when, what, where, how much, doctor, the whole deal.

Most of you probably know all these things. But for those who haven't had the pleasure ...

By the way: Most patients are under the impression that, between the doctor and the pharmacist, that the doctor is "in charge." Not so. The pharmacists function, in part, as adversaries to the doctors -- gatekeepers to all the riches. Sure, only the doctor can OK a refill or change instructions or initiate the rx to begin with, but the pharmacist has complete authority to refuse to fill the rx for virtually any reason. Remember that.

[Wizard]

The trials and tribulations we go through!!!!!!Who put those pricks in charge! If ANYONE said to me "I'm not filling this legit oxy rx because I'm tired of it".  I guess I'd be W.D.ing in jail! Now I'm not a violent man, BUT!!!! **** THEM!!!!!!!!!!
I'd come over the counter rip some minimum wage head off and, and, and ....................WHoa there, sorry everyone, Day 7 winding down was getting a little testy and read my new friends Cindi and Thomas' comments and was jut ripe to blow a hooty! Sorry for my outburst..Again I must thank you Thomas and Cindi for as always you have given me an opportunity to put the "DRAGON" at bay. Worked again! ROFLMAO! Cin, thanks for the
e-mail it was nice to hear from you in a differant venue also.
Thomas, is that your e-mail address above? Cin tells me you are on the west coast like me. Okay to write?
Power & Magick from the Wiz to all of you,
May God Bless his little children!
Wizard

[Angelica]

I'm using a (Re: thomas) mom and pop pharmacy, request of my new pain doc.  Maybe if I have problems, I should take you w/ me! lmao rotf, at you post.

[cindi]

Good advice re: the insurance,,,Yep wiz, I was at the store on day just looking around  Rite Aide....and the pharm tech came to the pharmacist who i shall say is an aquaitance of mine and asked if she was filling oxy's that particular day..the pharmacist replied, no, tell them we are out I am so sick of filling schedule 2 narcs...well after urging from this forum I did call the main place and reported this   now come to find out that there were a few calls placed re: this particular store because they always seem to be "out of meds" and she is the lowest on the list for reordering narcotics  LOL  she came right out and told me this....of course i denied reporting her....anyway I did take my script of ultram to her instead of CVS and she did not give me a problem....i should have taken it elsewhere and paid cash but they were well over  a hundred bucks,,, WIZ,it was really nice talking to you earlier via the mail route..LOL i still have to hop on and finish my e-mail and angellica is right, next time we go shopping  you go with us....they will not argue with the Wizard!!!!  we can just tell em I'm Dorothy and the good witch sent us...love to all   cin

[Thomas]

it's one of my e-mail addresses. write if you're of a mind to ..

[Angelica]

Thomas, I knew you'd get a break one day.  I am so glad that you found an understanding company....as for the guy asking for help, after what he did......Well, once a snake always a snake, and they can shed there skin, but always a snake.  Do you really think you need this person up your rear end, at this time in your life?  You need peace right now.
Wiz and Cin: RE: pharmacy........just something I found, to add to the discussion:
This is why the "Medical Profession" needs to be in charge of "medicine" in this country, and "Law Enforcement" in charge of criminals and law breaking. Law Enforcement should have NO control at all over "medicine" and they should be forced to "tell the truth" when they are under oath. Sick people trying to get something for their suffering are NOT criminals, but the DEA cannot understand that concept and doesn't know how to tell the difference between a sick person and a criminal.
Even addicts bleed, and do suffer pain.  The addict needs special consideration, and expert handling, but nevertheless, they need care as anyone does.

[cindi]

You are so right,  ya know for a young chickadee you are pretty wise...LOL  no one can ever way I don't know how to choose my friends....

[Wizard]

Cin thanks for the e-mail I was really in an unexpected pit...Cin, you were so right..then I went to post on my laptop and couldn't connect it took a **** I got so tied up in trying to fix it I forgot about the "DRAGON" in my ear! So I think if you are in a bad way kicking, **** up your P.C. and fix it! IT works!ROFLMAO! Well day 8 almost over whew! aI love all of you out there. Thanks for being my guardian angels when mine is snoozing!
Peace and Light of the Lord on you all!
Wiz

[cindi]

See how God works in mysterious ways?

[Angelica]

...Don't let that Dragon stop you now.  Run, Jog, bike ride.....read, study.....keep going...flood your mind w/ knowledge!! Knowledge is power.  Keep trucking, your almost there!  We're here for you.

[Thomas]

I'm not sure when the meaning changed - I think it was in the early part of the 20th century - "drugs" stopped meaning healing and relief of pain and took on an entirely sinister meaning. "Drugs" became synonymous with moral degradation, social irresponsibility and default of character - in other words, a defective, unworthy individual.

The 60's, which in many ways really happened in the 70's, didn't help by glamorizing LSD, pot and coke (honorable mention to speed). Coke is a drug with the capacity to destroy society as we know it and may still succeed in doing so. You can't blame anyone for their revulsion at cocaine and crack.

However, the net effect of this situation is as follows: ANYONE who wants a drug for a so-called illicit purpose has no trouble obtaining it anytime they please. It's the solid citizen with the cancer pain that follows all the rules and trusts in their medical professionals that winds up in unrelieved agony. If they're like a lot of people in society without the support structure most of us enjoy, they frequently end up divorced, friendless, penniless, frequently homeless and often justifiably suicidal.
All this because someone put out a couple of celluloid reels of garbage entitled, respectively, Reefer Madness and Cocaine Fiends? Obviously, the process of turning drugs in the public mind from something good into something so evil it's virtually ignored by the leaders of our society runs deeper than a couple of films.

There needs to be a revolution among patients not being properly cared for because of this ridiculous narcophobia that seemingly infects all segments of our medical industry. My dream is to organize all the untreated or inadequately treated pain patients as worldwide as is practical, and simply refusing to pay another dime to anyone until their complaints are heard and their needs are acted upon.

What would happen if every pain patient in the Western word simply stopped paying his medical bills? Think it would get anyone's attention????

[Angelica]

Brilliant concept, my brother.  I think we were on the brink of a revolution, untill certain doctors started getting involved, after all, if they are not ALLOWED to help us, we just quit going in for treatment.......as I did, I am proof of that.  I beleive there is hope.  My new doctor has told me this.  I have a 2nd appt. this week coming.  
How are you doing?  Your post ^ above was so well put together, I feel like printing it out and hot glue-ing it to the wall, here and everywhere I go! lol  You are the picture of understanding, and common sense, even w/ all your trials and tribulations....

[Thomas]

You are overly complimentary, but I appreciate it. Though my working profession is as a technical writer for software developers, I find that incredibly hard compared to writing about something I really know and have lived on a daily basis: drug addiction and everything and everyone that goes with it. It is, in some ways, a world in unto itself. When I write about drugs, whether it's my own personal reminiscences, speculation on a new drug, or just blathering on about some new sociologically oriented theory, my mind is crystal clear, the topics, organization and vocabulary are as if they were already written for me, just waiting for me to copy them down.

In between seizures and scrambling for work in the suddenly moribund computer industry, I'm trying to find the right angle, the salient topic that will allow me to write "from the heart" of my life as an addict -- with all the things I've seen and felt -- and the hope I see in certain quarters. But then, who wants to read another "I got stoned, then I got sober" book? BOOOOOOring!

Gotta keep working on that angle. There's no more important subject to offer fresh ideas on -- it's just something that starts coming out of me when I start a post on one of these forums. But to be a success, there are publishing requirements that have a lot to do with marketing and sales that must be addresses and satisfied first. Otherwise, I'll just have another unread manuscript. Oh well, enough. We'll see ... I'm not dead yet!

[cindi]

Not pay our medical bills...now that is a brilliant idea....ya know  my husband has been having an ongoing problem with these physician...ok  the oxy 10 mg  (yeah right  you heard me  10 mg twice a day) were not helping him  so he called the dr.  and told him that..the dr. then said to bring the script in to the office...well since he had it filled he took the bottle and the pills in to the office and they took the remaining pills away and gave him a script for Vicoprofin  1 in the am and 1 in the pm....well, my husband has alot of problems with herniated discs nerve problems etc from a really bad injury...so vicoprofin 1 tab does not help  so he took 2 in the am and 2 in the pm...  that helped him..he is really good with pills he has been in recovery from coke and alcohol for 10 years now and he really was never into pills  ever...anyway he ran out of vicoprofin about 5 days early and the dr. called in a new script but would not change the order..ok 1st of all he had no right to take the remaining pills from doug,   we paid for them  thank God insurance picked them up because they are quite expensive...but Doug didn't want to **** the doc off and be cut off completely from anything...i told him not to pay his dr. but like he said  insurance pays for him and they at the office files the claim.  well now he again is looking for a doc that is willing to treat the pain one who is not "narcophobic"  I like that term.....so, imagine if we all stopped paying....hmmmmmmmm  what a thought     love to all         cin

[Angelica]

If I can find a doctor, so can he.  I will take a look, and let you know what I can find out about your area.  I'll get back to you soon.

[Thomas]

have you tried http://www.prescribeus.com/? I understand it's perfectly legit. You apply on-ine, then an MD's supposed to call you at home over the phone, after which you get a generous month's supply with a refill of 10mg Vics for about $170 bucks. Just an idea.

[Pillpoppa]

Hi Councillor - your patient will not come totally right until you replace all the zinc/mag you have leached out of your body over the past few years - this is what 'hanging out' really is - it's your body craving zinc/mag (zinc stops cravings/magnesium stops depression). If you don't do this it will take up to 2 years to return to normal as the only other source your body has for zinc/mag is food and then it is in such tiny amounts it takes years to build up again. If you get a blood test done you will find your levels of both are way down on what they should be.


A typical tablet contains somthing like this:

Zinc amino acid chelate 75mg
Magnesium amino acis chelate 37.5mg
Vitamin B6 10mg
Manganese amino acid chelate 10mg
Viatmin A (1000I.U.) 300mcg

Grading your habit on a scale of 1-10 (1 being occasional use and 10 being long term methadone at 100 plus mg's a day) you should take the following amount for a period of one month then slowly reduce to a daily amount of 2-3 per day.

Habit scale/size - Number of tablets per day for a month

10 10
9 9
8 8
7 7
6 6
5 5
4 4
3 3
2 3
1 2
0 2

You will notice that I recommend you never go below 2 per day. This is because zinc/mag depletion was your original problem so you should give yourself an ongoing supplement to make sure it does not happen again. I now take 2-3 per day to maintain my health. I have had no failures with this treatment (everyone OK after less than a month) and have treated addictions (including my own) as varied as methadone and cigarettes. The cigarrete smoker reduced from 2 packs per day to just 5 cigarettes per day in a week without any discomfort. If you suffer any kind of 'hang out' just increase the zinc/mag dosage and give it a liitle longer to take effect (a week or so). Don't beleive all the bullshit about drug addiction you have heard - it's all **** - this is the real deal. The drugs themselves are not actually addictive but they do leach all the zinc/mag out of your body by increasing the metabolism of them creating a shortage that gets worse the longer you use unless you replace them while you are using in which case you don't hang out when you stop - you just come straight - this is true beleive me I have tried it as have a few other people I know and none of us sufferred any hang out when we stopped.

[Angelica]

....It's seems as though, I've met you somewhere before???? Just joking.  Wow! Thanks for all the info.  (:

[Tech14]

I read your post about the pharmacy not filling your new rx. I worked in a pharmacy until about a year ago. I don't know if things have changed in the last year but when I was working prescriptions we were NEVER allowed to change a docters orders in any way. If the doctor (the same doctor that filled the original RX) says an RX is OK, then no one can refuse to fill it. If they did, and something happened to you because of it, and it was proven that your doctor did OK the RX, then the lawsuit would be staggering. Believe me, nothing scares pharmacies more than litigation.

The health insurance, however, can refuse to pay for it. In most cases you will have to pay retail price because the insurance company DOES NOT have to pay for the same drug class twice in one month. Sometimes pharmacies can get an override for this, but as you all know, they will not bother because they will just assume you are an addict. A horible way to act, I know, but I worked at this pharmacy long enough to know that most pharmacy employees are like that anyway.