What "CLEAN" means to me

The meaning of clean to me means you no longer ABUSE your drug of choice. Key word there being abuse. You are no longer an active addict or slave to that drug. I think alot of people on this forum still do NOT understand the difference between addiction and dependence. And I just wanted to shed some light on the whole "drug substitiution" thing.

For example, If I take vicodin as prescribed for pain over a period of time my body will become dependent on the medication. Same thing goes for Zoloft, Ambien, or Suboxone. Take them for a certain period of time and your body will become dependent on those drugs meaning you should slowly ween youorself off to avoid WD symptoms.
Now if you take vicodin due to bordem, just for fun, after a stressfull day or to get high, you will soon start lying, stealing, faking injuries at the ER, need to take alot more to get high, draining your bank account, buying them illegally and putting everything else in life 2nd after vicodin. Everything will take a backseat to the vicodin high and obtaining the drug. Your brain becomes rewired in a sense to where you actually belive the drug is neccessary for survival. Taking vicodin becomes almost a natural relfex. That my freind is addiction and anyone whos ever gone through it can tell you its no way to live your life.

To me, substituting one drug for another means to take percocet instead of vicodin, vicodin instead of darvocet and vice versa... Even though you have changed the drug itself you still exhibit those nasty addictive behaviors mentioned above. The drug itself is never the problem but the behavior surrounding the use is.

I take my suboxone medication just the same as my father takes his bloodpressure medication, or how my mother takes her antidepressants. Does that make us all Dirty???? No.. Are we dependant? Maybe, but we dont not take any of those medications to get high. I can and will say I am proud to be 35 days clean ! !  The only thing I have substituted is a horrible addictive life for a great addiction free one now. It feels great to stop the cycle of those addictive behaviors.

Never stop trying to get clean!

[Savas]

I have no problem with the argument, but let me ask you this...

"methodonian lifers" use this same argument to state they NEED to be on methadone for life. Do you think they're justified in claiming they aren't addicts, that it's like a diabetic on insulin? Keep in mind they argue that there systems are damaged to the point where they believe they'll NEVER recover. A statement I find...disturbing.

[lonote]

I personally like what you have to say cause I also take suboxone, although some have me convinced that its not clean, cause if you go to a meeting and are on that or the other one methodone your asked to just listen. How rude is that.? I like your thinking. but i'm forever confused about the whole thing. So I don't claim any clean days as long as I take the suboxone. I just know that my life is in a 100 times better place,now   than before while on narcotics.

[lonote]

I've also heard that they get a high from methodone. suboxone does not make me high. ah76767
Thankyou for another point of view. You'll prob catch some slack over it, But I like what you had to say.

[AH6767]

haha methadone is a hard one lol..I wasnt saying to stay on sub or meth for life at all. I think if you are using it as a bridge until you get your next fix, or just to get high, then of course they you are not clean. They may say it, but we all know addicts are great liars. They are lying to themselves just to make them feel better. All the addictive behaviors are still there. If you are 4 years clean, have a back problem and are suddenly prescribed vicodin, as long as you take them as prescribed then I would stil consider myself clean.

[Savas]

You can't get high from methadone. That's a myth, like methadone blocking opiate use. You can get sleepy, I suppose, if you take enough. But most clinic people in NY take numerous other substances while on methadone.

[lonote]

Sorry. I didn't know that.

[AH6767]

Thank you... I really dont care about any slack I get on here. I know how i was 35 days ago, and I am back to my old self again, before the addictive behaviors started. I should be off the sub within the next month.Good luck to you!!!

[FLaddict]

Are we really gonna get into this... Its all opinions really.. and no ones opinion matters except your own and how you feel about what you are doing..

[AH6767]

I am allowed to give my opinion, just like how you do. Telling people to use sub ony short term and beach telling people they are using sub incorrectly. FL im not trying to start a fight with you ( I do love how you go above and beyond to help everyone here)  but whos to say your opinion is the right one when it comes to sub? Again I just posted in defense of some others here. Not looking to fight with anyone. Sorry if this offends you FL.

[kyjobr]

I am also a sub patient.  There is scientific evidence that some people have screwed up their brain past the point where it will recover or that some people naturally do not have enough dopamine to be "normal".  In these cases sub acts as an antidepressant.  I also agree that there is a strong distinction between addict and dependent.  Yes, I'm dependent upon suboxone but I'm not addicted to it.  Just breaking all of my bad habits has been incredible.  Not having a bottle to reach for when I need a little something, dealing with life as it is, without a buzz.  

[FLaddict]

Actually my post here was not meant to be negative in any way.. I just saw that it could cause issue and some people can't have a adult conversation and debate opinions here, so i was just asking are we really getting in to this??

Yes i am very aware its my opinion.. but its not just my opinion. On this particular site I am on my own in warning people all the stuff I have read about Sub. There are many other sites I have read of hundreds of people warning people about Sub based on their experience and research, here I get singled out. I don't buy into the hype, I am entitled to my opinion. And i am beginning to think i should take it elsewhere..

[lonote]

I think she is refering to what I said.

[lonote]

Girl, I didn't mean to start anything. i'm sorry.

[FLaddict]

Are you talking to me??  Nothing i posted was in reference to you or your post

[lonote]

Steph, I thought I said something wrong. sorry,you were refering to something , or someone else.
maybe i'm just a little paranoid.

[victoria1667]

Don't you dare!  I look forward to your opinions and knowledge.  Suck up the criticisims and lets move on!

[kyjobr]

fladdict  - Please don't feel you need to leave.  Some of things I've seen posted I think are a little exaggerated toward the negatives of sub but it doesn't mean it's not valuable information.  I fear that is may scare some people off of trying sub but then again, all of us who are so excited about it may be only giving the positives.  You mention sites where people warn against sub but for every one of those I could point out sites all about the positives.  The point I guess I'm trying to make is that hopefully anyone looking for help will realize that there is no right way for everyone, just the right way for them personally.  

ah6767 - I completely understand where you're coming from.  there is a general feeling that sub isn't welcome on this board or at least not long time use.  I know of several people who watch this board but don't contribute because they are afraid of being "bashed".  My feeling is that instead of getting upset about it I am trying to educate everyone on the positives and try to balance some of the negative vibes so that we are all at a happy medium.  

Savas - is that really true about methodone not getting people high?  I saw a good documentary on HBO about how people abuse the methodone system and were "nodding off" in meetings etc.  I assumed that was because they were high otherwise why would they be abusing the system (going to multiple clinics, purposefully their dosages raised).  I know nothing about methodone but I thought it did get them high but was recommended because it was better than stealing to get the money and it was less of a violent high than heroin. I could totally be wrong though.  

[kyjobr]

I just looked it up and apparently it is a myth that methodone gets you high.  hmmm, I'll have to rewatch that documentary then.  Thanks for teaching me something new!  I wonder why sub and methodone are treated so differently then...

[wait2long]

there is a pro and con list for every medication in the world...do the benefits out weigh the risks?, is what is important i think, also i guess there is negative information and positive information out there...take what you want.

[AH6767]

please i not trying to start trouble here. Just gave my opinion on being clean and sub. like kyjobr I do feel from what i read this board isnt sub freindly. I was just sharing my experience so maybe someone reading this whs has tried CT numerous times and failed might give sub a chance and very well might suceed.

I also saw on HBO people were using multiple clinics etc to get more methadone. My question is why would they go all thorugh the trouble if It did not make them high? just trying to understand..

[FLaddict]

those people in that doc were taking xanax with their meth to get their "nod on"  you can get high if you add benzos.. which is how people abuse the system. it was called methadonia

[GA Guy]

OK, here's a question. Think a minute on this one. Would ANYONE on here have ever quit if there were no negative repercussions? Say that taking ONE pill a day kept you feeling great and you never had to take more than one. That one pill was always there, and you never worried about running out. You never had to use the rent to buy them. There's very, very few people who would quit under those situations. That's why I say there's nothing wrong with Sub. The only reason I try and steer people away from methadone is the terrible withdrawals some people on here have. I think sub saves lives whether used short term or long term. I also think that the only thing that really matters on this little rock we live on is how YOU feel at the end of the day. By the way Steph, your opinion is as valuable or more so than anyones. People need to make choices after ther research things. You are such a valuable resource on this page, along with everyone else. NOBODY is going NOWHERE..get it? I need you all HERE too much. Now that I've had to scream...I'm going back to watching my ballgame..and, you may all return to your regularly scheduled program....:)

[wait2long]

i just stopped taking methadone and was on 20 mgs daily, there were days i took more and i was wasted..gone...sleeping while standing...nodding off in mid conversation...no benzos were involved...but i know people who do that also..first doc was percocets, then oxies, then i found the methadone which was helping me...until i figured out i could take more and get blitzed..

[victoria1667]

I don't think it makes you "high" like oxy or hydro, but the more you take the more relaxed, sleepy  you may feel.  I take 100mgs, have for 9 months, and I dont get "high".  It keeps the cravings in check and I'm not looking for narcs all the time like I use to.  Overall, I am much healthier than when i was taking 18 norco a day.

[victoria1667]

Yeah..what he said, i feel the same way. You da man GA!  

OH..yeah..umm...by the way..a..so....are you gay, Ga Guy?


lol just kiddin, hee hee hee,  i saw somewhere u posted your denial.  Not that there's anything wrong w/being gay or anything, ya know.  

Cheers!
Victoria

[wait2long]

it took me a while to figure that out also,,,but i think i read that Ga stands for georgia, am i right?

[wait2long]

congratulations on 35 days hun...i know how hard it is, and your doing it and doing it well, your awesome for helping all your friends also...that shows what type of person you are !!!  XXOO

[johnnykelly]

I am what an addictoin councillor is called a polysubstance abuser/dependant.I started back in the day with alcohol, and along the way cocaine powder/crack and now percocet.Tonight theres no coke or booze, i feel great. I to have been on methadone, as in Canada suboxone/subutex is not available.I read your post an agree with you. the sub isnt making you an idoit/criminal etc.keep up the good work.

[GA Guy]

Yes, for the record..I'm a GUY from Georgia. IBKleen thought I was gay for months. I look at people's screen names all the time and I misread them all the time. But, I am happily married (to a woman). Not that there's anything wrong with not being straight :)

[victoria1667]

yes, it does, i was just giving Ga Guy a hard time.  Have you read his profile?  He has put so much into it and really does care about helping people through the w/d process.

[AH6767]

Thanks for the support!!!!!!

[beachtowel]

Very interesting comments and well articulated................

AH6767 you make an interesting argument as well as the mother who recently posted how well her son is doing after years of drug abuse and the mental anguish there family went through with him....

I would agree that your dependent and not addicted to Suboxone.....

lonote brings up an interesting comment about Methadone....Many people bring up the arguement that it helps with there pain and keeps them off all other drugs...........
Is it wrong because the Methadone user gets high but the Suboxone user doesnt?
Does that make the Suboxone user more right?

All the time I struggle with using because in my head I always thought I did everything better when I used........at the peak of my addiction in 2004 and 2005 when I was buying viles of dilaudid and fentanyl I thought I could do anything I was superman........and now everytime I struggle I want to use......its almost been two yrs clean and I still get these cravings all the time..................

I dont know is using Suboxone or Methadone everyday is right or wrong we all have to live our own lives if were honest with ourselves we know what the right move is...........

[wait2long]

no i havent...but i will now...thanks...

[lonote]

Did you say cocaine? A guy on the other side was looking for support has a prob with coke. I refered him over here, but to no avail.

[scot120]

   For more info on methadone side affects click below :                    
http://health.yahoo.com/topic/addiction/medications/article/healthwise/tv7354;_ylt=Aicwly.jUT5EMbFFWKc2rJpLvs8F

Methadone causes many side effects, including:
    * Drowsiness.
    * Lightheadedness.
    * Weakness and fatigue.
    * Feelings of elation (euphoria).
    * Dry mouth.
    * Difficulty urinating.
    * Difficulty breathing.

In some people methadone impairs balance, coordination, or the ability to think.
I don't have any personal experiance ,but did some research .

[scot120]

Click doesn't work  ,  drag address ,copy , paste in address bar
  

[notmenow!]

Why are you taking yourselves so seriously, We communicate here as a form of support not to share war stories, or vote who is the addict with the most knowledge of what should be common sense, That opioid addiction as a treatable chronic disease of the brain.(period) If it works then work it. But I will say one thing my friend was kicked out of the Center for Drug Free Living in Orlando for testing positive for benzo's, Caught twice in a 3 month period. He was on 120mg and they detoxed him 5mg per day. It took a year for him to recover from the horrific withdrawal. THE END---Noah

[kyjobr]

I love this thread!  I love that we all got our 2 cents in and it felt respectful.  It's really rare that I've seen this on other boards so I thank each one of you for being so mature and thoughtful.  And we've all learned something too!  

P.S.  Just got back from my second NA meeting...I feel energized, wonderful, motivated!