What are some medical risks with taking pain meds?

[Jennibean]

What I am asking is this, I know that pain meds with tylenol in them can damage the liver or even cause liver failure when taken in excess. But what about pain meds without anything else in them? I am taking oxyfast, straight oxycodone in liquid form nothing else added. The reason I ask is that somewhere I read that somebody said hydrocodone etc. can cause heart attack and stroke if taken in high quantities. Is this true? Is there any organs that this stuff is particularly hard on? I realize an overdose could kill you but I am just asking about excessive long term use, what are the risks? What are we hurting? My Dr told me that the tylenol was the only dangerous part of these meds and that really there is no ceiling on the amount of opiates one can take as long as they are tolerant to the amount taken before increasing it. I am trying to wean and stay off so any info that might scare me as far as possibly killing myself might help me get clean and stay clean. I worked in the medical field for many years and know enough about alot of medications but have never heard about the heart attck and stroke before.
Thanks for your time.

Jen

[reborn]

im no doctor and i get most of my knowledge from this forum with that....
i have heard that if u take pills ,hydro , percs u know all that ****.and u abuse them(take in some other manner than is perscribed to us) as we all have done.you can depress your resparations . that dont sound like much however it means you have built up a toxic level in your system and its starting to shut down. this happened to me a couple of times the first time i thought i was dying. one moment i'm sitting there , the next i'm gasping for air. what had happened was i had passed out and come close to stop breathing   i had to breath 3-4 times before i could get a hold of it(re-oxiginate) my blood . not to mention i was having a panic attack during this it scared the **** out of me.


STROKES-POSS RELATED BLOOD PREASURE ISSUES RELATED TO LONG TERM USE
I'M NOT SURE

HOPE THIS IS HELPFUL INSIGHTFUL?
HANG IN THERE AND KICK THIS CRUTCH TO THE CURB
CLEAN SINCE 11-28-02 7:00 P.M.

[Chezz2]

Jen,
Oxycodone or any other opiate derivative due not cause any damage to your body.
When your doctor spoke of the opiate ceiling, and being stable on your dose before raising it : He meant that you can take a dose 10x higher than someone else as long as your body has adjusted to the dose, and you don't OD on it. That is mainly for people that have been on them for a while and their body adjusts to the dose and needs to raise it to get the same amount of pain relief from it. If your body can not handle the higher dose, you can overdose. This would be via respiratory distress, or any of the other symtoms indicated via the medical books.
So in short, opiates do not hurt your body, unless taken in amounts that cause overdose.
The tylenol is what really kills.
Regarding the info on hydro, or any other pain med causing stoke. This is caused via sudden cessation. You body goes into shock from not having this suddenly cut off. This can possibly occur in someone who is either on a very large dose, or someone with compromised health already.
In short, opiates do not cause harm taken in any dose as long as your body can handle the dose.
As always, talk to your doc, especially if you are on a HIGH dose and are thinking of stopping taking them. Or if you HAVE to stop taking them CT.
Better safe than sorry,
Chezz

[hellbent]

Never heard of opiates overtly causing heart attacks of strokes, though they can certainly play a part in many ailments and sicknesses one might have when taking them.

To say that opiates do not damage your body...well I'm speechless. I was on them for four years and almost died. If being perpetually constipated is not damaging to your body, what is? You don't process nutrients, your food doesn't digest. Look at Elvis. Homeboy Died on the toilet, with his insides exploding, due to opiate painkillers.

Is the mind part of the body? What kind of damage is done to your seratonin balance by being on opiates? Your endorphin production?

I was 60 pounds overweight by the time I finally quit Oxycontin. My eyes were dead. My leg was always falling asleep. I had a few benign growths on my head! I used to wake up choking on vomit. 7 months later I am back down to 180 pounds, my leg is fine,my skin is fine, I STILL don't ******* sleep more that 5 hours at a time....

These things KILL you physically. They were all I was taking. I didn't drink or do other drugs (klonopin for awhile). Pretty damn clear to me that these things royally **** your body.

[hellbent]

FYI,I am not ranting at you! I am delivering an alternative opinion to Chezz's statement that opiates do not damage your body.

[Chezz2]

Hellbent, good post on the symptoms created.
OPIATES, the opiod......does not cause harm to your body. Like tylenol does.
The SIDE EFFECTS of opiate use can cause harm, especially when abused.
Chezz

[hellbent]

Hey, thanks for not going off. I Got a little passionate on that one...

Absolutely true that the opioid itself doesn't attack and poison your organs directly, ala tylenol on your liver.

[Chezz2]

No reason for me to get "bent". ;)
Your view on it was taken as it was. A diffent side of what happens with abuse, and the SIDE EFFECTS.
I was speaking of the direct correlation as to the OPIATE on the body.
That is the crappy part of taking meds. Too bad you couldn't just take "pure" opiates without any side effects. That would be nice.......
With everything in life, there is a balance. With pleasure comes pain......
The side effecs are there to keep the balance.
Chezz

That is the "balance" to this forum....There will always be someone with the "rest of the story"

[Rex1]

Please hang around - I and the others need you here...I mean that.

Rex

[lifeisbetter]

I'm from Boca. Check around some of the old timers should remember me. Hippy, Nod, Irishrose, Skipper, Hellbent, I'll be clean 1 year This Dec. 23. I went to Dr. Rodriguez in Boca and I owe him my life. He does outpatient rapid detox and he does it because he really cares not for the money. Cost was under $500 and he will work with you. www.RodriguezMD.medem.com. Please believe me when I say he was my last hope.

[Rex1]

How much better is it after a year than after say, a month?

Do you still have a lot of body pain?

Rex

[teeitup]

As I mentioned in other threads I will need some form of pain control for life, the hydro's do the trick but the tylenol even at low doses for extended periods really concerns me. Any suggestions on equals that don't have the tylenol? would going from the 7.5/750's to 10/325's be better. My goal is 1 to 2 a day at the most.

Thanks!

[Bodymechanic]

Opiates are a chemical which is naturally produced by the body.  As you know they have been around since recorded history.  They are handled very well by the liver and other organs. The only risk I have read of concerning opiates on health are rotting of the teeth and premature osteoarthritis. Obviously personally and socially their misuse can be disasterous.

I would be interested in medical effects of repeated withdrawals on the brain and nervous system.  

Peace

[Rex1]

My pain management doctor - a real expert in the field in the truest sense - told me about the same thing. Except for overdose, the Opiates like Vicodin don't affect you organs, except for the tylenol component.

As he put it, Tylenol (and Ibuprofren for that matter) are toxins in your system.

One of the compelling reasons for me to get off the drugs was that I was taking three things daily and sometimes 4:

Vicodin
Ibuprofren 800s 3x /day
Excedrin 2 tab 2x/day
Zanaflex

This can't be good for anyones system, and I am convinced it zapped my energy as well.

Now, I am just on the Ibuprofen and occasional zanaflex and Excedrin.

next week I am due to cut these as part of my taper plan.

We'll see...

Best of luck to you...

Rex

[Chezz2]

Mechanic,
OPIATES are natually made by the body? Or is that endorphins?
Just curious, cause I should would like to find out how to talk to my receptors, like Mike did, and kick their ass into to gear. Then I could tell them where to find their own!!!
Kind of sucks when you have to live with pain daily, take opiates to take care of it, then your natural endorphins get lazy and stop producing!!! Would be nice if their ass would work TOGETHER like a team......
Chezz
Hopefully for me I will be able to get surgery and get rid of the physical pain....

[saveyourself]

Hey all,

I am in day 11, using the recipe, forced myself to take a walk and had  a light workout today.  It is in the middle of the might and got 2 hrd sleep, so checking in.  With my injuries, I can live without pain meds.  Man, now that my head is clearing, I know I am going to have to be the one to get back in as good as shape as possible.  I am 44yrs old, feel like 60,due to the drugs.  I will take it slow and easy and keep using the support of the board, NA meetings and my church.

Greetings to you rex1, you are in my prayers and reading your posts over the last month have helped me.  Your strength, your game plan of tapering will succeed.  Freedom is around the corner.

Just a final note to those with injuries that neccesate controlled use of pain meds to make it through the day.  My prayers are with you most of all, it is a situation I cannot even imagine.

Peace and Strength to All

[suzieneedshelp]

Sorry to break the string...I missed your post below about back pain.  I am a therapist..Was a manager of about 40 PT's,and OTs' and so i know the best help for back pain is correct exercise to strengthen the muscles that can support the effected areas.  Also the aerobic exercise helps pain of the entire body due to the creation of those positive endorphins, etc.
So it would be recommended to get to a PT and get an individual exercise regime prescribed for you.  
And to catch ya'll up on me..
I have relapsed back on the stadol. But i wil totally be out next weekend after Christmas and going thru my final withdrawal then.  Plz...Keep me in your prayers.
Thx,
'Suzie

[Oxyclean]

I have been only on this forum for a short time and already starting trouble. I fully agree with you. A doctor that is answering questions on an addiction forum needs to know about addiction....bottom line. Who can get pissed off about that?

[suzieneedshelp]

He is a psychologist not an MD i believe.  So its not his fault he can not respond to medical questions.  We really need an MD and an addictionaologist or a pain management DR. who specializes in addiciton also as well as a psychologist here!  I know this forum is about addiction but it appears.. most have gotten on this stuff as a direct result of chronic pain.  
Peace!
Suzie

[lisabet]

Hi Suzie - sorry to hear about your relaspe. Don't beat yourself up about it, honey; the holidays are stressful anyway, and besides the next time you try just might be THE ONE!!!! If we keep climbing back on that wagon when we fall off, sooner or later we'll figure out how to stay there!..smile  (I had a relaspe during Thanksgiving when my family was here --- I'm hoping and praying it won't happen again Christmas...I'm totally paranoid about it), but guess we'll see - I'm gonna try to stay on track.  Got you in my prayers - Love and Peace, Lisabet

[ChiTownGirl]

Hi Suzie, YOU OK?  Don't beat yourself up over your relapse, we've all done it! I will send you a separate email to your other address.  CTG.

[pasttime]

This is my first time posting although I have been reading for about a month. I am trying to quit a habit of taking hydrocodone. The way I take it fluctuates according to how many I have. Anywhere from 4 to 14 and periodicaly i have none for a couple days but I continue coming back to it. I am now trying the clonidine patch and thomas recipe for the first time today. This is day one and I hope to make it this time I am only 25 and I want my life back. I finaly confessed to my wife and that has made things so much easier. She has been very supportive. I would love any advice that I can receive. Thank god for this forum!

[teeitup]

Great name,

You've done the right thing, keep posting and good luck!

TEEITUP!

[Chezz2]

Suz,
If it was that easy to stop, relapse wouldn't be so prevalent.
Nor would addiction be addiction.
We have all been there before, and will be there again.
It is a battle, not a war.

The fight really never ends...

Chezz

[Oxyclean]

Now that your wife knows, maybe you can do what I did. My husband is holding my meds so I can't take anymore than my taper allows. It takes alot of the pressure off me when he is in charge of them. It is the only way I see me getting off pills. When I am in charge of them I eat them like candy. Good luck....

[pasttime]

that is a good idea to let your spouse hold on to them for you. But I am gone try this without tapering. I have never been addicted to anything else but I can't imagine it being harder than this. I feel weak for allowing this to get a hold of me. I really didn't begin taking these for the pain. My sr year of college i began taking them recreationally and never had a problem with it until about 6 or 7 months ago when a dr gave them to me for actual pain. I had access to a lot of the pills and that's when it got me. I have a question does anyone know anything about the clonidine patches? Today is the 1st day and I haven't felt any wd yet.

[Oxyclean]

From my experence, I did not start to feel withdrawals until day number 2. I guess it takes a day for all the drugs to get out of your system. Be careful on the Catapress patch. I am on Catapress #2. It is a bloodpresure med. It is to control your presure during withdrawal. If you start to feel dizzy or lightheaded, get your presure checked. It is working for me. I was in the ER with a pressure of 190/100 during withdrawal. That is when they gave me the patch. I give you credit going cold turkey! I can't do that. Being diabetic, I get too sick. Good luck, let me know how you are doing. You are not alone.....

[suzieneedshelp]

Ty you dear ones!  I am trying not to get too down on myself for my relapse cuz i know that will only lead to one thing!  More druggin..So i am not gonna get  into that downward spiral. You know yous lurkin guys n gals  the feeling low about ourselves using is part of our addiction syndrome which tries to keep us down and then using more!    Hopefully  next time will be  my last withdrawal!
Chi town have not got your e-mail gal...wutsup?? Hope all is well with ya!
Suzie

[hippy]

we should post the question to the good doctor.
dear doc, what can you do for us to make life better
in your vast amount of experence in your end of the feild.
truthfully what would you say to us in general is the best thing we can do, to attack the problem of opiate addiction.
i think we need to ask questions the doctor can answer.
i an answer with meat and potatoes in it would be appriceted.
questions like.
doc are we insane when we take 20 to 30 pills a day and do
you think we all have a death wish.

doc what is your take on the severe depression , when we
go through the withdrawls.

peace out  hippy

[LizzyM]

I know I said a couple of days ago that I would not come back here cause I got lashed out at..and I am very sensitive..but, your Post helped me understand something tremendously.  My PCP 2 weeks ago put me on MsContin after I argued with him that I should not be given Naracotics since I had a big problem with Hydro's.  He told me that it was different..the MsContin that is.  He told me that in order to help with my severe pain due to endometriosis stage 4, that I would have to take this MsContin ofr 7-10 days a month..just during that really bad pain time.  Well, I took it for 6 days, I got really bloated and constipated and I gained 6 pounds in one week!  Now, I am little...I have always been thin, I never gain a pound.  I can eat whatever I want and I don't gain a thing..I am very blessed to have a fast metabalism...but, I was like what the hell?  Why am I not poopong for 7 days and how in the hell did I gain 6 pounds in one week?  So, I went to a Pain Specialist and he took me off the MsContin..guess what?  I lost the 6 pounds in 3 days!!!  
So, I guess it was from the MsContin..or did I read too much into your post?  Any info would really help.
Oh, and I definately am not an imposter here..Chezz, Methman, Suzie, Staraven..they all know me pretty well..Just so you don't think I'm trying to BS you.

Lizzy

Suzie...Did you find MaryEllen????
Call me back..please I'm worried

[LizzyM]

Oh..just a clarification on the person who lashed out at me..it obviously wasn't you..it was a new member here..It was probably my fault anyway..Right CHezz???  LOL  :)

Lizzy

[lifeisbetter]

I can't describe to you how much better I feel after one year.  I have finally been able to accept that I can NEVER have another opiate. The thought of pills rarely enters my mind and when it does I think back to the last 3 days before my last detox. I did that alot at the begining in the first few monthes. Now I kinda look at the pills like I do winning the lottery, I accept that it would be nice but it's just not going to happen. I'm an addict, so the occasional thought/craving will creep in. That initial thought is the one thing I am not responsible for, it just happens. I am however, responsible for the thought that follows. I try to think of something to be grateful for right then at that moment and so far its worked to get rid of any lingering craving, that and the utter fear of another detox! I don't really sleep more than 5 hours either but I kinda like it. I get to spend time doing things I like and I don't feel guilty about it. Life right now is wonderful. It gets so much better guys just keep trying.

[Rex1]

Mike,

Are you lurking, have you left - I wonder?

I hope you are still around my good friend cause I owe my life to you and the other here.

SouthernBelle

How's it going today - any better?


Finished?

Missing you too bud. Hope all you guys didn't get your feelings hurt and bail on us. You all together have been helping so many people!!!

Rex

[And]

Thought I'd let you know how my tapering schedule is going.  I posted 2 weeks ago pretty much at the end of my rope, my dose having escalated to about 350mgs oxycodone/day (when you convert the 100 fentanyl patch + roxicodones + oxycontin all to the total equivalent amount of oxycodone -- yes, I'm a math prof.)

Using most of that "recipee" products, I am now down to 67.5 - 75 mgs/day.  Incredibly, I haven't yet once cheated on my taper scchedule.  *Now* it's getting much harder to decrease further.  But I do feel very good about myself, like I've really accomplished something.  Though I feel, physically, like hell most of the time.

I fing that:

1.

[And]

Sorry, I pressed the wrong button.  I was saying that I find that Pepto-Bismol every 1/2 - 1 hr works better than Immodium and that a heating pad on my stomach works well between hot baths.

Today I'm going down to 60mgs/d.  I know that I won't sleep, but it has to be done.  I find that my whole character has changed and I'm beginning to recognize myself again -- so have my friends.

But the cravings, now that's something else!

Good luck to all of you -- this is *not* easy.  I'm about to have a sneeze-fest so got to go.  Thanks for the push, it was a life-saver.

And.

[oxic]

Awesome job on the taper......that is a huge accomplishment.
Just remember the rule of thumb for tapering now, THE LOWER THE SLOWER. Being a math wizz, that's obvious to you based on percentage cuts. With each reduced dose, let your body stabilize for a couple days before the next cut.
Man, you are getting sooooo close.
Continued strength to you!!!
Percs No More

[lisabet]

Ditto to Percs post above - you're doing great!!!!  Lots of good hearted people here that'll help you through the rough spots...don't be afraid to ask or post!  Love/Peace, Lisabet

[reborn]

coming clean with your family was a good idea you will need their support big time.i have been clean 20 days the brain is just about normal again. the body thats another story just getting back into exercising again very tough. hope your in good shape you will probably have some withdrawls(diareha flu like simps) maybe more(depression etc.) so keep drinking water and eating gentel food  take hot baths,showers if your legs get rubbery and your sore.48 to 72 hours after my last dose is when it hit me the worst. so provided you dont have any other medical problems just plan on being a miserable person for the next 10 days.if u can take time off from work that would be a good idea, i was n't worth a **** for 9 days. if it gets real bad ask for help.
PLEASE POST YOUR PROGRESS SO ALL THE OTHER CRONIC LURKERS SUTCH AS I WAS, CAN SEE ANOTHER SUCESS STORY. AND START LIVING AND FEELING AGAIN.GOOD LUCK

      

[reborn]

finished where r u hows it going?
and- good luck hang in there

[pillhell]

I will definately look into your suggestion.I looked into another rapid detox for methadone.It was 2500.00 So 500.00 I think I can do.I was starting to think there was no hope at all,unless I robbed a f------ bank.Thanks for caring enough to write to me.Do you know if that doc.does family care,my husband would have to do it with me?well I can ask him?You should be damn proud of yourself-a year clean is such a fanominal accomplishment.You are my inspiration.How many times did you detox before becoming clean?what exactly did you detox from?Thanks again.Stay strong!!

[pasttime]

Thanks for the encouraging words. I really need them right now. I know there is light at the end of this tunnel I just can't see it right now. This forum has been a blessing to me. A

[CGTMHI]

Dear Suzie,

Your observations are right on target!  Dr. Horvath is a Ph.D. and specializes in Addiction Medicine.  He is not an M.D., as you point out in C21.  

That said, Med Help would LOVE to have a Pain Management Physician AND a Pharm.D. available to answer questions in this forum, but sadly we just don't have volunteers in those fields, or the funds to hire them.

Cindy Thompson
Med Help International

[mwh]

I have never made it more than a month without giving in. Do the cravings ever go away. I seem to be planning,plotting, or thinking about the next script of hydrocodone all the time. Just want to know if there is any hope of freedom.

michael

[teeitup]

Everyone is different, to say if the cravings will ever go away is a question only time will answer.

Do you have a chronic pain problem? If so then as myself you must learn to use not abuse. I'm taking the approach to inform as many people around me that I can trust to watch me for signs of change, stay as busy as possible so when I'm not hurting so bad I don't take one for the buzz or because I'm stressed or pissed at something.

Most of all when you the urge for a hydro if you really don't need it, talk to someone, log on to the forum and read and remember the hell you've gone through to get to the point you are.

Be stong!
Teeitup!

[Rex1]

As T said everyone is different. I wish this would work for me, and I am sure it works for many, but it could never work for me.

That's because I have a "if one is good, two is better" autopilot built into me.

I may have mentioned before that when I used to drink a long time ago, Bacardi rum was my deal - I loved the stuff. Smooth, not a bad hangover, goes with anything, ect.

Before long though, I was putting this stuff away like crazy. I mean I drank a pint every night, sometimes alittle more. I still remember looking through a pile of empties I had and realizing this was just one weeks worth! I had a major problem.

And so it was with the Norcos (Vic ES). Script for 180 per month, means 6 per day, right? How many does it take to kill my pain per day, 3, maybe 4? No, I was taking 10,11,12, and I think my highest ever was maybe 15. Why?

"because I think that if 1 is good, 5 at a time is 5 times better."

I wish I could do what T does, but I can't. With Rum, after several false starts I stopped. For two months I had cravings, and still have the occasional voice in me head that says "Ah, you could have one drink and it won't hurt you". But after the two months, they were really few and far between.

For Vicodin right now, I still want them, hence my question at the top of the board right now. But, I must realize every day I get further away from them, i get less attached to them.

This may sound weird, but for me, I am not so worried about relapsing in a year, or in 10 years, because if I get that much time under my  belt, like booze, I will really not "miss" it.

I worry about the next 5 minutes, the next day, while I am still in pain. Jan 1st and the thought of goingthrough detox again is scaring the daylights out of me.

So you will have to choose which method is right for you, but it will depend some on your pain level...

Let us know if you need encouragment...

God Bless...

Rex

[reborn]

man hows it going ? hope your doin well. its 5:00 a.m. in so.cal and im up. one of the other things you'll notice down the road is getting 5or6 hours of restful sleep is a blessing.i forgot something, do u have acess to a jacuzzi?,if not r u taking hot baths showers etc?
hot water helped me alot.u probably knew that though. well it's day 3 for you i believe hope its not to ruff on ya. hang in for 7 more and your just about home free.21 to 30 days from your last dose and your brain starts to gets better. at least thats the way it's goin for me right now.man... i can remember my day three i was awake had the runs,a was clincally depressed. i can remember feeling  an intense sence of shame for getting hooked @(maybe because i had a problem when i was 22 w/ another substance)at 33years old. PATTERN ALERT, PATTERN ALERT.do u see one?:/ well thats where i'm at now, i don't ask myself why? or how? i got so messed up anymore. i have an addictive gene thats why...how, i liked the feeling or lack there of ..
i can say this i'm different now i'll never look a drug addiction as weekness ever again.now i view it as a journy some of us travel longer than others. i could not go on . it was time to get off the bus.and start the long spirtual walk home. my family likes having me back so will yours, people depend on us. some times we have to take a knee and take care of #1 your doing that right now. every day the tunnel gets shorter and more familiar as the fog lifts.hang in there i'm am sending you and your support team good thoughts.          
        
p.s.
H2o...H2o.....H2o drink it,don't get dry it makes things worse

[diso]

Very nice post.  You did an amazing job of expressing a lot of the feelings I have.  I am on day 40 off an oxy addiction.   Everyday it gets better.  The fog has really started to lift from my brain.  It is good to hear from friends and family that it is nice to have the "old me" back.  It is definitely good to be back.  I had a root canal today.  My dentist usually prescribes a few days worth of pain meds for it.  I told him I could not take any.  My tooth really hurts but I feel great satisfaction in being up front and avoiding the temptation.  It does kind of suck that my new reality is that I can't take the pain meds at this point even for legitimate pain.  I just hope I'm not faced with any major operation in the near future.  I have a deal with my wife that she is forever more the keeper of the pain meds if they are ever needed.  I hope to never need them.  Life is good clean!!!

There is an amazing hidden reward to recovery--If I can beat my addiction I can accomplish anything.  What an awesome boost to the self esteem.  Best wishes to all in their battle.  Keep up the fight.

[Rex1]

Really good to hear from you.

Hope you'll visit more with us.

Thanks so much for the help you gave me during my first few weeks of detox.

I owe you,

Rex

[reborn]

Man day 40 wow CONGRATULATIONS, i wish i could be on day 40.oh well 19 to go.funny u should mention the dentist story on friday the 13 i hurt my knee and got forced to go see a doctor (work injury).and ofcourse he asks the question WOULD U LIKE SOMETHING FOR THE PAIN?..........no i'm fine.....thanks.i knew it was coming, no friggin way am i going back to that feeling(WDss)it was an easy choice.i'm scheduled for an mri in 2weeks well see what happens.even if i get cut i still not goin back and dancin with the devil, i'll deal w/ it 1day at a time( iused your name haha good choice man)
one of the wise ones said :
WERE HUMAN
WERE MENT TO FEEL PAIN
there was more i cant remember. he was right pain is part of life just as joy, sadness and other emotions are. suppressing them kills the spirt in us. iguess were just meant to feel the good and the bad.i'll take it.
hang in there 1day
nice to know i'm not alone in this process

[TawnyT]

[TawnyT]

How do you know if your organs are shutting down from a Tylenol overdose?