What can we do after the intial detox to alleviate anxiety/depression?

[Rex1]

To Forum PHD/Everyone:

Anyone have ideas on alleviating the depression and anxiety after an intial detox is complete?

I think is the key to relapse - keeping a positive mood. I have tried both 5htp and the L-Tyrosine, but these seem to make the anxiety worse - not better.

Any ideas would be most appreciated...

Rex

[Bodymechanic]

If you were not prone to anziety and depression before your addiction it should pass over the next 2-3 weeks. Both 5htp and tyrosine can make anziety worse.  If you insist using an herbal then valarian root may be a good choice.  St Johns Wart may work for you but it too may make your anziety worse especially during the initial course of treatment. The current medical treatment for what you describe would be 2-3 weeks of xanax along with paxil.  The treatment can be altered depending on your response but this is the typical starting place.

[Witchywoman]

Actually I have to respectfully disagree with Bodymechanic on the 5htp making anxiety worse.  I do agree that the L-Tyrosine can make anxiety worse, as too much L-Tyrosine made me jittery. 2 caps of it I do just fine on though.

But 5htp is an amino acid that actually makes most people a bit sleepy. I ups your body's production of both seratonin as well as melatonin (melatonin makes you very very tired).  5 htp has been used to treat anxiety, and it was what saved me from suicidal depression when I was going through detox.

I suggest you read up on it on www.raysahelian.com  He is a medical doctor who has studied many nutriceuticals (including 5htp) extensively and has first hand research to report.

Everyone responds to things differently, so I'm not saying that Bodymechanic is totally wrong. Perhaps he knows of a person who got more anxious on 5 htp. But my experience was that it helped immensely with both my depression and my anxiety in those few nasty weeks post detox.  I also have several clients who take 5htp specifically for anxiety and are helped by it.
It is stellar for depression.

Another nutrient that is stellar for depression is SAMe. It helps with joint pain as well.  

I'm not a Doctor, but I am a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and work with a lot of Doctors, one of which often advises patients to use 5 htp and other nutriceuticals, so I can always ask him questions and repost, but I encourage you to read raysahellian.com and do research this stuff on your own as well.

thanks,
WW

[hippy]

i have read post by  a few mmbers who said
kava kava was very effective,
you might want to look into it.
and if you are not going to take the l-tyrosine
you might want to see a dr. about an anti depressent
once they kick in they also help with sleep and pain.
peace!~~~~~

[OxyDout]

I have been a few months sober now, I have not used one opiate and or other drug.  I have to say the depression is tough to beat as well as the anxiety.  AS ADDICTS we all tend to want to take something to make us feel less pain or less emotion.  In all reality thats not the most beneficial route to take.  Its my belief through experience that we need to SUCK IT UP, I don't mean that in any aggressive or disrespectful way, just that in order to get back on track you need to get through the initial 30 days with herbal solutions or nothing at all.  I found that a double dose of Melatonin sometimes helped a tiny bit, but seeing as weak as it is, it doesn't do all that much.  The 1 thing that helped me the most was keeping busy!!!!

We can't keep feeling sorry for ourselves, or telling ourselves that we have Knee pain, Back Pain or headaches, because the truth of the matter is, most other sober people experience a lot of the same pains and endure it by using advil or ibprofen.

This is not to say that the majority of people on this board are not in sincere pain, thats not my point at all.  My point is, regardless of the level of true pain, we all tend to make up a lot of pain in order to justify using.  

In the end you need to focus on yourself but in a more positive light, go for that 6am walk/run, make yourself go to the gym after work, spend more time with your children or significant other, DO WHAT MAKES YOU HAPPY, but stay sober!!

I have successfully left the world of drugs, and if I can do it after the countless number of relapses then YOU CAN DO THIS, ITS DOABLE.

GOOD LUCK AND GOD BLESS,

GWH

[hippy]

it is really good to hear you are doing well.
i was thinking about you.your words of wisdom
are well put , all the times i tried to kick the vikes my body would always start hurting in places i never hurt before.
i like to call my body the donkey, today i have to take the donkey for a run.
keeping busy is very important , just laying around
just intenseifies the depression and everything else.
always good to read you post.
hippy, michael

[Thomas02]

As usual, Bodymechanic is full of it ...LOL. No, I suppose there are people that have paradoxical reactions to many substances, including 5-HTP. I've heard that serotonin-related anti-depressants such as Prozac can cause anxiety, angry outbursts, and spontaneous Michael Bolton karioke performances offensive even to sake-soaked Japanese businessmen.

I find myself agreeing with the omni-lovely Witchywoman. 5-HTP helped me cope with lingering anxiety related to benzo withdrawal. It's also an excellent sleeping pill for those of us trying to avoid even mildly addicting stuff such as Ambien. For depression, the standard recommended dosage of 100mg 5-HTP 3 times a day causes drowsiness for the first week or so, after which the effect diminishes.

Speaking of Japan, I found a Japanese study of anti-depressants on the net that achieved the same success rate with 5-HTP as with SSRI's Prozac and, if I remember correctly, Zoloft.

Thomas

[flashk]

I am down to half a 5mg perc every twelve hrs. Last night was hell. My legs were in such horrible pain. For the anxiety I have been taking Kava kava {which seems to work}, bananas and valerian for the leg thing.Today is the first day I was able to get out and at least get some fresh air. Thier were times today that I saw light at the end of this horrible long tunnel. I have a question..after I take my last pill am I going to go through the hell all over again? I went from taking 8 pills a day to where I am at now in about 4 days. I pray that the worst of the WD is over. I hit a meeting last night which sitting through was absolute torture but I felt a little better afterwards for a little while. thanks to everyone and I hope that you all are getting some relief from this agonizing disease..

[Bodymechanic]

I must respectfully disagree with Witch Women and simply say that there are no always and nevers.  5HTP is a precursor to serotonin and although it makes most people calmer there is more than a handful that it makes more jittery. I am among the unhappy few.  Not only does it make me jittery but I makes my insomnia much worse.  It has exactly the opposite effect on most people. It is just a matter of your own brain chemistry. I guess the point is that you have to use whatever works for you. Also, with any of these medications and especially herbal remidies, it takes a while for them to work. Sometimes a month or more.

[Thomas02]

You're going to feel like **** for a while longer. When you get those legs pains, climb into a hot bath right away. Hot soaks are very effective for the leg pains during opiate WD.

Thomas

[Witchywoman]

I think we are on the same page my friend.  We both are saying different folks react differently to substances.

I'm very wierd with seratonin inducers.  Prozac made me exhausted, where it makes most folks a bit jittery.  But 5htp energizes me a bit, where it makes most folks sleepy (due to its melatonin enhacing properties....5 htp is the direct precursor to seratonin yes, but it also stimulates production of the sleepy hormone melatonin)  I don't respond to anything the normal way.  We all have to just see how our individual systems handle each of these things.  
The reason tryptophan makes folks sleepy is that it gets metabolized into 5htp and then into melatonin.  But it wouldn't surprise me if some folks got more anxious on 5htp. Bodies do different things.  

I just wish I had a body that could handle opiates without getting cravings for them that ruin my life! Dang.

love,
WW

[Rex1]

Thanks for all the replies.

Today is one of those hell days - doom and gloom thoughts, no motivation to do anything, feeling depressed and nervous abouth the future, ect.

It is also the day that I have kicked out all, the last, the final, the complete, the total, the very last of my any of my pain killers, as I threw the Tylenol 4s in the garbage disposal - good riddens!

I think there was possibly a bit of relapse feeling when I kicked the norcos completely using the Tylenols just for pain. They are worthless anyway.

The one thing that gives me strength, at least I am hoping that this is true, is that time is on my side I suppose.

I have both the L-Tyrosine and the 5 htp. The L-Tyrosine was making me jittery, so I will go back to the 5htp and give it a try.

Here's to tomorrow being better than today!

I hope you guys are hanging tough!

Rex

[alchemist]

I've been doing a little reading about why we go through withdrawal upon dextoxing (which coincindently is happening to me right now, I haven't slept in days)and I see there are 2 theories.

1.  The opiates replace natural endorphins and enkephlans(spelling?) in our body and when we stop the opiates are bodies go into "shock" until the body build up normal levels again.

2.  The opiates and endorphins/enkephlans inhibit the release of some unknown substance (called substance X in the book) and when we stop the opioids there is nothing to regulate the release of "X" into our systems and the WD symptoms are just too much substance X floating around in our bodies

Both are fine theories but neither one of them explains why, for example, if you give an opioid niave person a shot of naltrexone nothing happens but if the same shot is given to an opioid dependant person, he/she goes immediately into WD.  Neither theory explains this phenonmenon at all.

Any thoughts??

[theGolden1]

BodyMechanic .... I saw my doc today and he raised my dose of ultram. I said a prayer before I went to the office and decided to be honest. I just hate lying and manipulating all the time. The truth is "I want to be drug free". His opinion is that I won't be able to do it because I have fibromyalgia and by switching to opiates, I'll just mess up my life. I will always need something for pain. I accepted his decision for now .... but I am not happy. I wish I could be free.
I don't know how to get vicodin or lortab accept to have surgery and it's not a dire necessary right now. I guess I'll just be quiet and keep praying. The funny thing about doctor's is if everyone gets well .... they're basically out of business. maybe I'm dreaming ... but I think I can cure myself. Thanks for your support ... you sound so good.

Rex ... I know what you mean ... the blahs. EXCERSIZE!! It works like a charm. If you absolutely cannot bring yourself to do it, the next best thing is to drink 2 glasses of filtered water and take a shower .... if you get your blood circulating, it goes away. Fight the depression .... bright lights. Put the music on even if you don't feel like it ... you are a sweet person and I know you'll do well. I'm pretty down over my ultram situation ... but I know something will break. I'm just going to hang on ..... Goldie

[LittleBitHookedNGa]

Im worried about myself.  For the past two years on and off I have been prescribed 10mg vicodin.  In the last six months my doctor finally sent me to a neurosurgeon and found I had ruptured a couple more discs.  I have already had a fusion prior to this.  Well the last six months I have taken 10mg vicodin six times as day as I don't sleep much and have to take doses at night.  So I just had another surgery in September but it was unsuccessful.  Since then I have on my own doubled my dose.  After doing that I noticed not only did it take all of my pain away, but it made me feel good.  I had to go early for my medication and my doc said I better slow down.  Am I an addict?  If I am what will be done about my pain if I have to be taken off of this medicine?  For the past three months I have been taking 10-12 pills a day.  I slowed down to two a day before thanksgiving but now am right back to the same old.  My pain gets worse when I slow down so what do I do? Help me.

[bmac]

Go find a good pain management group like in a hospital and get the doc to put you on a slow release pain med.There are many many of these drugs being used and one will work for the chronic pain you have, believe me.My back has been cut on a few times and your doc is treating you with acute pain meds not chronic pain meds.You can get by only taking 2 doses a day.Much better on your body and the liver.Keep asking question and you will get answers here.Good Luck,      
                          bmac

[PING]

hi friend. thanks for responding to my asking about a little drinking while tapering, like you, i am only talking about a couple glases of wine, either at dinner or bedtime, i was afraid
to for a couple of wks, but i beleive it is helping me, i'm not saying this is the right way to go, for anyone else, just my self. everyone have a good day, got plenty of snow here in the bluegrass state today.
                                  lee.

[Witchywoman]

I agree with bmac. The slow release is the way to go if your pain is so strong that you can't function and you really need something. Chronic pain should never be treated with short acting narcotics, but often is.

The thing is, if you are an addict like me, be careful with the slow acting meds if you get on them. Don't crush them. Take them as prescribed. They will give long term pain relief, two pills a day, as they are timed released. Usually docs give some short acting meds like vicodin for breakthrough pain when you are on the long acting meds.  

But please, save your liver! The time released meds have no tylenol, which is what shoots our livers.

love,
WW

[Bodymechanic]

I think it's time that you stop beating yourself up about this.  There is nothing wrong with taking pain medication. You seem to control your intake better than most including myself. If this is what your doctor says you need than stop fighting.  Celebrate your life and move on.

[Rex1]

Bodymechanic is right.

Are you in pain that inhibits your functioning as a human? That's what the medicine if for and thank the good Lord for it.

(My 11 year old, when he was 9, broke his Femur bone - it was a spiral fracture that required surgery. They had him on Morphien, then a strong codeine, plus morphine agin after surgery, then liquid codeine. The pain he went through in the ambulance ride, turned to nothing more than slight discomfort because of the painkillers, which is a gift of modern medicine!)

Two points to add to what BodyMechanic said:

1) I guess it depends on whether you have the painkillers, or do they have you

2) My Pain doc (for my back) always says to me "Yeah, you get off the painkillers, as long as you have somehting to replace it with"
To me this means that I have to do soemthing to alleviate the pain or I will fail. Do you have anything that will lower the pain to a tolerable level? If not, use the medicine that is there and follow the drs advice and dosage, remembering that if it gets out of control, you'll be here in a worse state than before.

Good luck, and thanks for your words of encouragement!

Rex

[suzieneedshelp]

I am not doing well with tapering!  Any advice...
Suzie

[Rex1]

Have you made slow progress or no progress.

Compare tapering with cold turkey - that's how I tapered. Cold turkey scared the hell out of me.

I guess my mind worked like this "hey I can continue to take the drugs I like everyday" until it was THE day to go to zero, at which point is was on such a low dose, that my "cold turkey" was from 1 - 1.5 /day to zero - a baby step.

Cold turkey may work better, but if I were doing this, I woudl go the route of Body mechanic and check ou this Buprenex.

Good luck, and remember a setback means that you have been making progress, or else how could have a set-BACK?

Rex

[theGolden1]

Thank you both for the good advice. I won't be doing anything until the middle of January .... and my doc suggested anti-inflamatory meds (like celebrex). So we shall see. I finally found a reply on Medline about ultram (in the archives). They said the "half life" on opiates is 3 hours .... ultram is 7 hours and methadone is between 15 and 30 hours!! Aye Carumba! They also said it depends on how well your kidneys work and how long you've been taking ultram. I have good kidneys and I can always drink more water ... and I would expect it to take 2 to 3 weeks. As far as pain ... there is a difference between pain and discomfort. I won't know how much pain I have until I'm clean for awhile. I am determined to be drug free someday. But for now, I will enjoy getting ready for xmas. So much to do. Truthfully .... if I have to be on something .... ultram gives me a better mental attitude than vicodin. The opiates produce depression whether you are on them, or withdrawing from them.
Thanks again for the good wishes ..... Goldie

[LittleBitHookedNGa]

Thank you for the response.  I asked my doctor once about taking the time released medication.  I do believe I would be more likely to take it as prescribed than taking the vicodin since it is not helping my pain as much as before anyway.  Do you know if the body builds tolerance to the time released meds like it does to the vicodin?
Also when I asked my doctor if there was anything I could take in lower doses he told me that those were schedule two drugs and they had even more stigma than what I was taking.  But now that I know that they are for acute pain....I have to wonder what is his thinking and reasoning.  
I live in a small town and there are no pain clinics near.  I found one about 150 miles away and was willing to drive but I needed a referral.  So when I asked my doctor for it he said "I am your pain doctor".  Do you have to have referrals to all pain clinics?  My doctor has no problem giving me vicodin, but I am wondering if he has my best interest at heart or if he just wants to keep me coming back.
I want and need to resolve this before I end up out of control with this medication.

[Synderella]

"I've heard that serotonin-related anti-depressants such as Prozac can cause anxiety, angry outbursts, and spontaneous Michael Bolton karaoke performances offensive even to sake-soaked Japanese businessmen."

Now that's just f**king funny!  I haven't laughed so hard in weeks. . .when your off narcos; it's the little things, like Thomas, that are needed to bring you out of your "funk!"

I've found a good ole' classic comedy DVD. . .pulls me out of a depressive mood every time!  Almost three months clean; but still dreaming of narcos almost every night :-(

Ahhh this too shall pass. . .

Jennyfer


PS. . .Thomas. . .You, Me, Sake (or your liquor of choice), and Karaoke. . .Anytime Babe!  We'll bring this whole damn board to tears ;-)

[Witchywoman]

The timed released ones build up tolerance just as fast if not faster than the short acting ones. Yeah I know...it's a ***** isn't it?

Is there any way you can get this Doc to let you go to the pain clinic to get a second opinion? Most insurance companies do cover second opinions and if he gives you a hard time tell the insurance company and they  may be able to help you get him to give you a referral.  

Good luck with this!

love,
WW

[LittleBitHookedNGa]

I went shopping at the mall today and actually couldn't wait to get home to look on my computer to see if you had answered my post.  You don't even know me and I don't know you but yet I was thinking about you just hoping I had some advice from you while I was shopping today.  
I am really scared of what I feel is happening to me, and I am even more afraid to tell my doctor that I have a fear that I am hooked on my medicine because I am so scared he will leave me stranded in the cold in pain if I do.  I am not afraid of getting off the vicodin but I know that I do need something for pain that comes close to helping me as good.
Thank you for caring enough to respond to my post.  You don't know how much that means!
Have you or anyone else heard of neurontin?  If so, do you know if it works?  I have heard a little about that medication, and from what I hear, when taken in combination with a muscle relaxer can be effective.  I am hoping that someone here may have experience with it and give me some opinions.  Also, what I like is I don't think it is addictive.  I hope not because it doesn't look like I have many options.
I am going to see my neurosurgeon next week and I am hoping he might give me the referral I need to get to a pain clinic.  I have my fingers crossed!  If he won't do that then I am going to ask him to prescribe the neurontin if I get good feed back on it.

[Hinkster]

Dear Little,
If you want to learn more about Neurontin copy and paste this url
to your address bar. It has alot of good reading about the pros
and cons of Neurontin.

www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/329/nation/Use_of_drug_soars_despite_controversy+.shtml

Tom

[moggy]

I have been taking codeine on and off (mostly on )for 8 years in total. I started taking it after injuries from a road accident which still mean I may have to have some pain control. I am prescribed strong cocodomol and i am concerned about the long term effects of paracetamol.   The toughest nut to crack in trying to taper down the use of codeine is the anxiety/low mood that I experience after a few days, even weeks of having cut the dose right down.  It has resulted in me falling back to square one many times.
My doctor prescribed sertraline(lustral), an SSRI which has lifted my mood but done little to decrease the anxiety.
Can beta-blockers be used?  Does anyone have any suggestions?