What do you think?

[maggymay84]

What ethical issues do you think are involved in using addictive drugs for PTSS (post traumatice stress syndrome)?

[Kova]

ethical issues?  what kind of drugs?

Kova

[maggymay84]

MDMA in general.

[ochooked]

Ethics is definitely the heart of the problem as Opiates are not on any prescribed list for Stress related disorders - so a doctor would be out of line in writing a script for them for this reason.  Other drugs are available to treat these maladies ---  If someone is using them for this condition, they are prolonging and adding to their original problems ---  Lots of grief ahead from the addiction to them.  All the best.

[Kova]

you want to use ecstasy for PPTS?  never heard of that.  you should read up on the E, though.  definitely a drug that can cause MAJOR depression, so i don't get why you would use it for that.

Kova

[Kova]

So i am assuming you are not talking about a doctor prescribing anything.  and as far as i know, E is not addictive, but it REALLY messes with your dopamine levels and can cause an otherwise healthy person to have a major depressive episode. look it up for yourself.

Kova

[avisg]

I am lost ,  some benzos might be useful ptss   ethical issues? I guess that would be something to dicuss with your doctor

[maggymay84]

Ecstasy is a very highly used drug for post traumatic stress sydrome amongst veterans. MDMA seems to be the most proven success for helping them work through their traumas. It is thought to be very therapeutic. MDMA has specific medicinal purposes. I was just looking for some thoughts on ethical issues involved in using an addictive drug for PTSS.

[Kova]

well, the fact that it is NOT an addictive drug and that it IS illegeal makes me greatly question if you know what you are talking about.

Kova

[maggymay84]

MDMA is a synthetic, psychoactive drug with hallucinogenic and amphetamine like properties. There are severe health hazzards, phychological difficulties and physical problems, believe me I have done enough research on the drug! As I stated, I was simply looking for a little input on ethical issues involved in using an addictive drug for PTSS.

[theeagle]

Not sure about ethical issues....Have read some about using MMDA and MDA for therapy .....Have done them myself and not sure if it would be valid or not.... Used more for things like divorce and group hug therapy .... Does have legitimate reasons to at least investigate the pharmocology behind the pill ....  Always can use a new and valid therapy ...........

[avisg]

United States Full-Dose Pilot Study in Male and Female PTSD patients  
          A research team under the director of Dr. Michael Mithoefer has worked with MAPS to design and obtain FDA-approval to conduct an MDMA/PTSD pilot study in the United States. The protocol was approved by the FDA on November 2, 2001. As of May 2002   , the protocol is still in the midst of the IRB approval process. The study should begin Summer 2002. The protocol will involve 20 subjects with PTSD, both male and female.  All 20 subjects will receive about 12 hours of non-drug psychotherapy. Twelve subjects will also receive two sessions of MDMA-assisted psychotherapy scheduled three to five weeks apart, with a dose of 125 mgs at each session, while 8 subjects will receive 2 placebo sessions. The goals of this study are 1) to evaluate whether MDMA can be safely administered to PTSD patients and 2) to determine whether there is any preliminary evidence of therapeutic efficacy and, if so, to develop an estimate of the effect size.  

          The entire treatment course will be conducted in 12 weeks or less, in accordance with the recommendations made in the FDA Pharmacologic Drugs Advisory Committee meeting that reviewed the data from the trials of Zoloft in the treatment of PTSD,

         If the study does begin in Summer 2002, the research team should be able to complete both sessions in all 20 patients by Summer 2003. The analysis of initial data can be completed by Fall 2003, with six month follow-up data analysis completed by Winter 2003. The final report can be completed by Spring 2004.

         The cost of the study is estimated to be $12,000 per subject or $240,000. The costs of this study include non-drug psychotherapy hours as well as thorough neuropsychological evaluations, and quite a substantial cost for administrative work on the FDA and IRB approval process. Subsequent studies will probably require fewer non-drug psychotherapy hours and may not require any neuropsychological evaluations, depending on the results from this initial pilot study. Since administrative costs have been averaged over a small number of subjects, subsequent studies with much larger subject populations, at least 10 times the size of this pilot study, can be conducted with significantly less cost per patient.

[maggymay84]

My nephew was extremely addicted to MDMA!! I definately know what I am talking about! I had to go through recovery with him!

[maggymay84]

I obtained that myself also, but thanks for your info!!!!!!

[Kova]

I have read that there are no physical withdrawal symptoms from stopping E, and i have abused it quite a bit in the 80s when it first became illiegal and i have never felt or known anyone to feel WDs from stopping it.  oh it most certainly gives you a hnagover, if that is what you mean, and i don't know one person who didn't experience at least a little depression after using it.  plus it makes you feel like total cr*p when you come down.  

[Kova]

i just looked it up.  there is tons of info on how dangerous a drug it is.  something about burning the synapses and depleting serotonin levels (sorry, not dopamine).  look it up for yourself if you don't believe me.

[maggymay84]

He simply would not give the drug up. He liked how he felt. I guess if you like heart palpatations, nausea, chills, muscle tension, sleep problems drug cravings and so on, I guess your addicted. Lol. I'm not him. I have no idea why he loved it so much. Not to mention MDMA is linked with long-term  damage to parts of the brain critical to thought and memory. He was told all of this info and it never seemed to phase him, until he was hospitalized at the age of 15 because he thought he was having a heart attack! Yet he still used it when he got out! Why? I have no idea! Why do people drink, or take other drugs, they like how they feel, and yes eventually may become addicted.

[Kova]

I just looked up using MDMA for PTSD and turns out there seems to be only one doctor who is doing a study on this and the results are still inconclusive.

if you know about long term damage to the brain from this drug, why are you asking this question?

[maggymay84]

Simply looking on other peoples eithical views involving using drugs, particularly addictive, for PTSS.

[Kova]

nevermind "ethics", it is dangerous, and i speak from personal experience.  i was one of those people who had to be put on antidepressants after abusing it.

i gotta go now, but nice debating with you.  i always learn something on this forum.

love and light to you,
Kova

[theeagle]

Well - - Wouldnt you know it .....I have some experience with PTSD and the like.....also with MDMA as therapy.....Huge difference between someone taking the substance for recreation and someone taking the substance as therapy.......Debate similar to the one with methadone and sub to treat opiate abuse.....Some schools of thought strictly forbid the use of another psychoactive substance to treat the first substance.......while others say to do whatever it takes......interesting study all the same.......Just as in many things ---  it takes the experience to really understand .......even watching someone else go through either the high or the low doesnt get you the t-shirt .......  and you cant get there by reading about it either ----------

[maggymay84]

Pretty much like any other form of therapy of addiction! I certainly wasn't trying to "earn" a t-shirt or even state that I knew everything about MDMA. All I was asking is what people thought about the ethical issues involved in using addictive drugs for PTSD. I am a 2nd year medical science student and I was actually curious about peoples thoughts on the issue. I have read alot about MDMA as a medical student and this really wasn't the issue I was purposing in the first place. My curiousity on the ethical issue was the one at hand here. Everyone else went ballistic over the discussion and did some up to date reading on MDMA that I already had done, no new news to me!!!!!! Any one who can read and comprehend my first question, feel free to step in an quiet the others down!!!!!!!

[Kova]

Hi again,

maybe you should try the addiction community forum.   this one is more for people who are trying to cope with drug withdrawals, so naturally you will get a lot of strong reactions.  maybe you learned something from that as well?

peace,
Kova

[maggymay84]

Amazing how one simple question can rile a the whole forum. Thanks for your input.

[CYMER]

I don’t find it a “simple little question”... take it from one who is still suffering from PTSS who also is a recovering addict.

[maggymay84]

The question is pretty simple if you read it. A persons ethical views on addictive drugs to treat PTSD? That's not simple? It is a persons, personal opinion on what ethical issues THEY (personally) think, key word THEY think. There is no right or wrong answer here!!!!!!