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What is the end game?
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What is the end game?

So here I am.  15 years after starting taking pain meds for my back.  I am diag'd with multi-level DD.  I tried this weekend to find out where the pain ended...and the addiction began.  Prescribed 3-80mg Oxycontin daily, 6- 30mg Oxycodone for breakthru pain.  It is no longer as effective as it used to be so I discussed with my Doctor about tapering back the quantity I take daily.  At day three now and I am exhausted.  I have managed to get by with only 1-30mg Oxycodone daily.  The  pain and depression is almost unbearable.  Woke up last night at 2:22 a.m.  On the button.  Wide awake...never went back to sleep. Realizing that I NEED exactly what is prescribed +more to control the pain.   Pain radiating from L5-S1 . T6-T7, and C5-C6.  Lots of support from wife. I just wonder...where the end game is.  Can't workanymore, can't seem to get any help, thank God I was able to get on my wife's insurance.  I never thought I would say this but...I  am beginning to think that a Lead Injection will take care of this somewhere down the line...just not right now.  Check and Mate.  Thanks construction industry for taking care of me after a lifetime of service.
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Avatar_m_tn
Jim,

A rule I try to stick to is not giving advice about things I don't know first hand. Not only is giving ill-informed advice unhelpful, it can be dangerous. Withdrawal makes any real pain, like you have, far, far worse and going on 3-4 days I would expect it to be at it's worst so it's no wonder you felt/feel like you do. However, I can't give any useful advice on which course of action to take as I simply have not been where you are.

This community is very supportive but lashing out is not helpful, please remember everyone else here has been through/is still in their own personal hell too...
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1591159_tn?1297199231
no do-gooder here. just an addict. your question was "what is the end game".
i have some similar issues and am on ssd for my back. i have detoxed of of oxycontin AND fentynal patches. i know your pain. it is real and ALMOST unbearable.
"ALMOST" being the key word. the choice is yours. which pain is worse? for me it is the dope...and its all dope hydro,oxy,all of it. dr. prescibed or not. i have the same choice and its only been 24 hrs so i am in the midst of it as well. i found that large doses of neurontin helps alleviate withdrawls. my only symptoms are strange poops....
i can deal. i understand unbearable pain and the need to medicate for it but it leads you down one path.....a bad road that usually ends in OD and death among other nasty things. sorry....but its a fact. i recomend sobriety...its a better road in the end.
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1591128_tn?1297582246
Kudos to you two for at least facing the real issue here.  We are all going to die.  It's just how we make the trip...that's the only difference.  I believe I will opt out for the meds.  I just put the shotgun back on the gunrack...The only thing keeping me from ending it is my love for my wife...I could never put her thru that.  IF IT WAS JUST ME....I wouldn't be typing right now.  Best of luck with your decision to quit the meds Freddy.  After three days...I just can't bear it anymore...It's not an addiction....It's a dependency I am willing to embrace for some sembalance of a normal life that doesn't require me staying in bed all day with the pain.
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Avatar_m_tn
Jim,

A rule I try to stick to is not giving advice about things I don't know first hand. Not only is giving ill-informed advice unhelpful, it can be dangerous. Withdrawal makes any real pain, like you have, far, far worse and going on 3-4 days I would expect it to be at it's worst so it's no wonder you felt/feel like you do. However, I can't give any useful advice on which course of action to take as I simply have not been where you are.

This community is very supportive but lashing out is not helpful, please remember everyone else here has been through/is still in their own personal hell too...
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Avatar_m_tn
I haven't had Lortab in 5 days. I want to be done. But your wife will endure a lifetime of pain if you do something like that. You and I both know it. She would rather have you as an addict than not at all. That's just my guess.
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1591128_tn?1297582246
Sry, didn't mean to "lash out" at anyone...this is not a black or white, clearcut, respondable issue.  It is very unique to each individual.  My preferences are mine.  yours are yours.  There is a myriad of issues relating to spinal health, quality of life, long term care.  There is no one answer to this issue.  Those with dependancies that resulted from recreational use...BY ALL MEANS...I would suggest stopping that kind of self-destructive behavior.  For those of us with serious medical conditions...it's a personal thing.  You know the old adage of " you don't know someone until you have walked a mile in his shoes"!!   LOL...walking a mile would be a GOOD THING for me....LOL
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1047946_tn?1332611629
I too suffer from back problems due to an injury while serving in the Marine Corps in Iraq. I have had two surgeries and now have scar tissue that took the place of one of my herniated discs. I've detoxed off of oxycontin. At my worst I was taking over 480mgs daily. I still live in pain. I know what physical pain is. I have buddies that were also injured over there and they used pain meds not only for their physical injuries but also for their emotional injuries. When it comes to the addiction of pain meds it isn't only because of physical pain. Many use them to treat their emotional pain. And yeah, some of them were only taking 3 a day but I can assure you that you have no idea what pain is. It may not be the pain you're feeling but it's pain none the less. But I can guarantee they have a level of toughness that you'll never know.

It's a bunch of bs that you're talking down others that are trying to get off of vicodin or any other meds that you feel is weaker than oxy. There's many members here that have detoxed off of heroin and could call you a weak sob for complaining about detoxing off of oxy. You're no better or no worse than anyone else here. It's not just about the drug we are using it's about addiction in general. Once addicted the physical withdrawals are a walk in the park compared to the time following the physical symptoms. This forum is full wonderful and caring people that will bend over backwards to help you through this. If you step off your high horse and give everyone a chance they will help you. You didn't give anyone much time to reply after you originally posted and then came right back talking down to everyone.

When we detox off of pain meds our brain and body are all out of whack because it stopped producing the natural chemicals. It stopped producing them because the pills were giving it a fake form of them. So when we stop taking the meds our brain isn't getting the what it's use to having. This causes us to have what's called rebound pain. I'm not saying you're not feeling pain but you will be feeling new pain. When we feel that new pain we think it is there to stay. But over time that rebound pain will subside. When I went through withdrawals and was experiencing the extra pain I thought that it was there to stay. Members on here taught me about rebound pain. I didn't believe them at first but they talked me into fighting through. The rebound pain did end up subsided. Once it left I still had to deal with my actual pain from my injury. There are things you can do to help this pain. The best thing to do is talk to your pain management clinic and tell them you want to try other ways to manage your pain besides narcotics. There are numerous treatments out there that may help.

I feel for you because I know how horrible back pain is. But if you can find other ways to manage your pain your life will get better. It will take one heck of a fight to get to that point and it's not easy but it is worth it. The pills cause us to think we are in more pain than we actually are. I'm not saying they are causing all your pain because obviously they aren't. But I think if you can get off the pills and give it a few months you will realize that the pain isn't quite as bad as what you think it is. I want to stress thought that I'm not saying you are not in pain and that you will be completely pain free. Even if you decide to try this you may find out that you actually do need pain meds to control your pain. If anything it will allow your tolerance level to drop back down. I had a doctor that recommend tapering off the meds every 6 months or so in order to keep my tolerance level low. But when tapering my pain level went through the roof and I just figured I needed to be on them for good. But I later found out that it was rebound pain that was causing this.

There's also a pain management forum here on medhelp. You may want to check that out also. At the top of the page click on "forums" and it will bring up a list of different forums. You will see it there.

Do you feel you are an addict? Anyone that is on the pills for long enough will become dependent and go through withdrawals but there is a difference between being addicted and dependent.

There are some things that can help with the withdrawals. Many doctors will prescribe clonodine. It's a blood pressure med often prescribed for withdrawals. There are also some over the counter vitamins and supplements that can help. If you look in the health pages you will see the amino acid protocol. The health pages are located in the upper right hand side of the page. There's a lot of great info in there.

Just give the forum a chance. You'll meet some great people here that truly do care. The amount your taking is up there but there are many that could laugh at the amount your taking and call you weak. The amount we take means nothing. Doesn't matter if someone is taking one vicodin a day. If they need help and support they need help and support.

Stick around the forum and you will realize how much people are willing to help. But after your comments I wouldn't be surprised if people don't give you a second of their time. Let me guess...you were the bully in grade school that use to beat kids up for their lunch money?...lol.....I am kidding. I know pain can cause us to be someone we actually aren't.

I hope you can get this figured out.

Best of luck to you.



Brian
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1591159_tn?1297199231
nice post. i have hurt so much that ive hurt the ones i love. thats a terrible thing. i wonder how my wife felt when she, for some unknown reason, came home from work early and found my lifeless body. and i do mean lifeless. that was the turning point for me and its taken me about 6 months to get where i am at. i still used....untill yesterday. so dont feel bad about takling the prescribed amount. it may, only for a while, improve your life. i stress the only for a while part. for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.....you are finding this out. for everyday you felt warm and fuzzy and life was good...you will pay one way or the other. i hope you eventualy find your path and its the one that leads to a bright eyed happy life.
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jim-by the way, get rid of your guns next tim you want to detox. i know at times ive felt like running in front of a bus. i cant imagine having a gun around during those moments. i have already died once in front of my wife....and it made me stop medicating my pain with opiates. but it took me 6 months and im only a day in but i know im going to make it. and brian is SO RIGHT about the rebound pain. it will get better.
when i get really depressed i take 5htp and a multi vit untill i feel better. it usuallly takes about 24 hours for it to work. after a week im out of my funk and stop taking it.
right now im taking it. the pills created seratonin so your brain stopped producing it. the 5htp helps that syndrome by retaining the natural seratonin that your brain creates. im not a doc im just saying what has helped me and how it has as i understand it.
may you find peace....
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1591128_tn?1297582246
Yes, Brian's post was some tough love Baby!!!!...You have no idea how much I appreciated some straight from the hip talk/perspective,  instead of some mamby pamby feel-good ****.  What we are dealing with is not to be taken lightly, and I wasn't deriding anyone in particular about their addiction.  Just putting things in perspective....I wish I was only trying to detox from a 5 or 6 pill a day problem with maybe 50 mgs of opiates total. Like you Brian, I'm well over 360 mgs a day for several years now....I took this upon myself to reduce the doseage so as to find out how much was PAIN, and how much was my brain wanting.  Nothing to help with the withdrawals except to sit on the couch and rock myself back and forth on my knees until the next wave came....and boy did it ever. And again and again and again.   You might want to consider that your assumption of my toughness a little bit hasty since you know very little about me.   And I meant what I said about if it wasn't for my wife...she's my anchor....I couldn't bear the thought of hurting her.  That's what stopped me....not a lack of opportunity or ammo.  I have always professed that self-termination was a cowards way out.  I see now with eyes somewhat more perceptive that there may come a time when that final option is the one that best serves the need of release from the pain...Look how many went to Kavorkian to get released... whether or not their decision was right....it was THEIR decision.. And I suppose the Judge of us all will have to decide about whether or not it was right or wrong.
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1047946_tn?1332611629
orry about all that and I do apologize. I just got kinda pissed off at your second post. I can understand where people look at the ones complaining about trying to quit a habit of 3 vicodin a day but it's still no easy battle for some. What may be a piece of cake of one may be one helluva fight for another. I just don't want someone that is taking 3 a day feel like a loser because they are having problems trying to stop. So much of addiction is a mental battle and a comments like that could totally crush someone's willpower and cause them to sink deeper into addiction. They could eventually end up taking the amount we have or were.

I noticed that while I was typing my reply that you posted and apologized for lashing out. I too apologize for my lashing out. I guess it just kinda hit a nerve and hell, it's Monday and the Packers won the Super Bowl after knocking off my Bears two weeks ago....ha ha

Seriously though, I hate that you're suffering in so much pain. There truly is nothing worse. I too was on the brink of suicide because of my pain but there was noway I was going to do that to my wife and kiddos. Their pain of losing me would have been much worse than the pain I was and am dealing with. I couldn't put them through that.

Even though I don't know you I don't doubt your toughness. Everyone and I mean everyone has it in them to get off of any drug. Some just have to dig a little deeper to find that strength.

Have you considered just biting the bullet and trying to go cold turkey? If you are suffering with so much pain anyways it may be worth a shot. But before doing so be sure to talk with your doctor. Normally going cold turkey is not dangerous but if you have any other underlying health issues such as a heart condition it can be dangerous. In the past I have tapered and I have went cold turkey. You just have to figure out what works best for you. Tapering can work well but it drags out the whole process. But since you went from taking 3, 80mgs and the others for breakthrough pain down to 1, 30mg in my opinion you might as well go ct. The idea of tapering is to make very small drops in your medication so the withdrawals aren't that bad. Once your body gets use to the drop you then make another small drop. When deciding if you should taper or go ct you need to ask yourself...Would I rather feel kinda bad everyday for a month or two while I taper or would I rather feel really bad for about a week? Tapering can be easier but it takes so much longer. Going cold turkey is pure hell but it's over with in a much shorter amount of time. It pretty much blows either way though! I've been through withdrawals more times than I can count and it seemed to get worse each time I went through them. You will make it through no matter which route you decide to take.

If you do end up going ct the worst of the withdrawals are usually over with in about a week with days 3 and 4 usually being the worst. Day 5 tends to be the turning point for many. Fatigue, insomnia and anxiety tend to last a few more weeks. The muscle aches hang around a little longer also but each day seems to be a little better than the previous day.

Be sure you are pushing the good fluids. I know you probably don't feel like eating but try and eat something. Crackers, jello, soup, and cereal are all somewhat easy on the stomach. Take immodium for the runs, Take as many hot baths in a day as you need. Get that water as hot as you can stand and add more as needed. Take motrin for the aches. Try and keep your mind occupied. Rent some funny movies, pick up a good book, do a jigsaw puzzle just try and keep busy to keep your mind from wondering. If we sit think and think the temptation to take a pill sometimes can become to strong. Do you best to try and stay motivated. I used my wife and kiddos as my motivation. I no longer wanted their dad to be living in such a fog. I know you would do anything for your wife so tell yourself you are doing this for her also. Motivation goes a long way and during withdrawals we need all that we can get.

Last year at this time if someone would have told me that if I stopped the pain meds my pain wouldn't be as bad as when I'm taking the pills I would have told them they are full of sh!t and I did. I finally decided to give it a try. For the first few weeks my pain was 10X worse and I thought, "huh, I proved them wrong". They told me to give it some more time and I did. It has now been almost a year since I have taken anything and I feel better now than I have in a long time. Our brains make phantom pain in order to try and give it what it has gotten so used to. Not saying all of your pain is phantom pain but I can guarantee you that some of it is. But even your original pain is probably feeling much worse right now. I'm sure you're feeling some new pain. The new pain should let up completely and your original pain probably won't be as bad as what it is right now or while you were taking the pills. I know it's hard to believe all this but it wasn't too long ago I was in a situation similar to yours. You kinda just have to trust everyone even though we are complete strangers.

Have you tried any other forms of therapy such as water therapy, pt, core strengthening exercises, etc? What about steroid injections? I tried a lot of those things while I was on the pills and they didn't seem to help. I then tried them again once I was off of the pills and then they ended up helping. That was proof to me that the pills actually cause our brain to create added pain and feelings. Once our brain gets use to opiates it will pull out every trick in the book to try and get us to give it what it so desperately wants. Have you been offered non narcotic prescription strength pain meds? There are a ton out there and some really do help.

Check out the pain management forum. Stick around this one to help you through withdrawals but the pain management forum may have some good ideas as to what to do for your back pain.

Keep on fighting. The pain from withdrawals will pass with time. You're doing a good thing here even though it doesn't seem like it right now.
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Avatar_m_tn
I did not read through all of the responses (kinda multi-tasking) but while you are right that medications you take have WD's that are terrible, calling anyone with any addiction a "baby" is not very nice. Now, don't get me wrong, I have said my wrong things here, and maybe some people have already said something to you. My reasoning for posting this is that A: Addicts or pain sufferers don't need to feel the worst to have a problem, and B: in this site, I have come to understand, if it's not for the poster and others in a helpful sense, it's not worth it.

I have terrible back pain, to the point that surgery is a possibility (found out today after going through this since May of last year), I am taking norcos, far less then oxycodone right? That dosen't mean that I am a baby, it means that everyone has different thresholds of pain.

I am not coming at you sideways, just letting you know, pain is pain, and addiction is addiction. Now, I am going to look in the mirror and say what I just posted down.
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Gotta tell you Jim, the guys that have answered you are better people than I could ever be. I thought your approach was inappropriate, unnecessary and pretty much plain old arrogant. This site has been here for some 16 years and I cannot begin to imagine how many members have been helped. It's a great place for information and an even better place for moral support. There are no bigger, or best addicts here. It isn't a contest. We are just a bunch of addicts trying to get and stay clean. A little humility and a drop of honey will get you more bees in the future.

Best of luck. I hope it all works out for you and you get relief for your pain.
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1591128_tn?1297582246
Thank you for your comments.  I know each of you were speaking from the heart....Whether I agree with you or not....I thank you for candor.  I too wish all of you the best in confronting your demons...Peace
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Avatar_m_tn
I am ignorant of DD, and I am ignorant of what is wrong with your back. Can you please elaborate a little on what is going on, it will help me out, not like I know everything, but I might be able to help.
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Avatar_m_tn
Welcome to the forum CJ! We have very similar paths, very. What is it that you seek? Do you want to get clean. Knowledge is power. I've learned a lot here. I made the choice as it seems you have to make darn sure that I'm treating the pain and not just the addiction, [physical dependence] by whatever name, coming off a large dose over a long time, and of course work history and age are all factors. Both in treating chronic pain and quitting narcotics. I got a visual of you doing some rocking, whew. Never thought that would be us, did you? Yep, knowing what a person wants is key to finding the way there. It will get as good as you make it or let it, and it's not going to be easy. Obviously easy isn't the way you went with your career so some more hard work won't be anything new. The drugs just won't work anymore, at least for pain management, you've seen where that got us...larger doses. There's another, and I believe better way now that we've couched it for years and taken lots of little pills, and such. I don't like it, but I do know if I want to be better, yet again I'm gonna have to get off my butt and do something about it. Let us know,,, or just hang out and get  used to finding out we are not unique as we thought, misery does seem to love company...Jim come on in... the water's fine.
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Avatar_m_tn
Your not going to warn him about the sharks?

LOL, just kidding.

You might be able to help him out if you are in the same boat......er water......

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1591159_tn?1297199231
i think he meant degenerative disk disease (DDD)? hey, i got that too!
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1591159_tn?1297199231
hey man....i woke up at 2:30am too. and thats after 100mg of valium and 800 mg of nuerontin. but here i am, just like you wide awake and dealing with the "rebound pain" and withdrawls.
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1047946_tn?1332611629
Hey...that makes 3 of us. I just woke up about 5 minutes ago. No rebound pain as I've been clean for about a year but still deal with pain.

Hey Fred...have you found that the neurontin helps with the withdrawals at all? I too was and am prescribed it and it really seemed to help with the insomnia and creepy crawlies when I went through withdrawals.
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Avatar_m_tn
Hey dude dont keep taking pills for the withdrawals you got quit a cocktail in you now and as you can see it dont work worth a dam  it best just to try and keep yourself bizzy for the next few days  may want to rent a few movies tomorrow so you got something to do tomorrow night sleep is one of the last things to return to normal good luck with your recovery ....Gnarly
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1591128_tn?1297582246
Of course....I've always been the BIG MAN....suck it up BOY!!!  Push Push...Work Work...Don't need no stinking advice...Get the HEck outta my way.let me show you how it's done.   Look where it got me...Broke down, burned out, used up, discarded like a bad habit?  (no pun intended)  So you can perhaps understand why I set out on this journey by myself.   I am encouraged by some of the comments you have made.  I am going to print this all out and hand it to my Doctor at 10:30 today and ask him....where do we go from here?  Wish me luck....and thanks for your comments and concern....Peace
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Avatar_m_tn
They have a saying in Germany " Let the old man do it, His back is crooked already", Jim let us know how it "works" out with the doctor. Still not sure what your goal is. Are you looking for work? Searching for pain? It's all here. Including many people, from all walks, that have decided they would rather not have narcotics in their life. Didn't you always wonder what was behind door # 3?
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My Doctor was understanding but firm.  We discussed the issues and he prescribed 2-80mg Oxycontin and 6-30mg Oxycodone for breathru pain.  I am thinking I will not need all of that, but ere regardless, he told me that if I took just ONE MORE PILL than I was prescribed daily, he was going to cut me off and throw me to the wolves...was his expression.  I agreed and promised to show him left over medication in 30 day for my next scheduled appointment.  I am confident I will be able to do this after practically going ct for the past 5 days now.
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Avatar_f_tn
So, does this mean you no longer have a need to post on the forum?   I hope so.

Best of luck!
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Avatar_m_tn
Any one who has the first stone to cast, throw it as hard as you can.

I already have made my ignorant and unempathetic (I don't care if firefox is saying that's not a word) posts and replies. Then very gently but sternly was shown why it was wrong.

Every single person alive has the potential to say nasty things, but ever single person alive has the need to be accepted and loved.

When you come out of the cold to people who have been by the fire, it takes a while for your heart to warm up as well.
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I'm saddened by your comment.  But I don't hold anything against you....I'm not like that.  You are perfectly entitled to feel however you wish.  Best of Luck to you too.
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Avatar_f_tn
Uh oh...I guess I didn't word that very well.  I'm sorry...post as often as you need to and want to.   Sorry again....
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I hear ya with the back pain.  I was squeezed between two trucks and have never been the same.  AFter my accident I was out of work which gave me more time to drink, pop pills and do more drugs.  I came into recovery almost six yrs ago.  I had a week long relapse and have been clean and sober for almost 4 1/2 yrs.  Recently my back has gotten worse.  I get radiating pain, and numbness all the way down to my feet in both legs.  My legs, back and buttocks tighten up something fierce at times and can be tough to deal with.  I am fortunate that I have not been on pain meds other than tylenol or advil and the occasional muscle relaxer.  I say that because I think I have learned to tolerate more pain without the heavy drugs.  My pain is also manageable with some stretching and exercise along with ice.

I understand about the degenerative disc disease.  Have you heard of something called IDD Therapy?  Do a search and check it out.  I have been through it before and it worked very well.  It fixed my herniated disc as well as my spondylolisthesis. It wasn't perfect but it was liveable.  That was about 6yrs ago.  Recently I aggravated my condition and spondylolisthesis came back and is worse.  I also have another herniated disc.  I am currently undergoing the IDD therapy again.  I'm hopeful that it will relieve the herniation however I don't think I will gain enough stability in my low back to keep my vertebrea in place.  I may be getting a fusion, but that is a wait and see.

As you can see by the responses you are not alone in this.  Many go through similar situations and are willing to help.  Good luck with what ever you decide to do.
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i didn't read all of this, but i did skim some and saw a few comments that seem to indicate some addictions are harder to shake than others based on the drug. i've met people who became addicted to heroin, only later to become addicted to barbiturates and find them to be MUCH harder to detox from than heroin. i've found people addicted to barbiturates who have no interest in opiates whatsoever....and indeed many people addicted to opiates have NO interest in barbiturates. same rings true for the amphetamines and benzo's. to be clear, ones drug of choice isn't always another. the level of addiction and difficulty stopping is NOT based on which drug you're abusing. for me it has been next to impossible to give up barbiturates namely because i fight chronic anxiety disorders and it's the only thing that makes me feel normal. the problem is that i also love the high it gives....but the high itself relieves me of my mental pain....pain i've suffered my whole life. so in any event, i hate to see people compare tramadol to vicodin and vicodin to oxy and oxy to heroin and so on....its so unique to the individual that NONE of them are more addicting than the other.

now to move on from that......as to chronic pain. someone else mentioned to stick with what they know and only comment on that.....i totally agree.....what i know MOST about is barbiturates. i've had opiates but they do nothing for me as far as the 'high' goes....and thank God for it, because who knows where i'd be if i liked those too! in any event, what i'm getting at is that i got hooked on barbs (more than just 1 kind) as an effort over 15 years ago to treat my migraines. back then, barbiturates were still frontline treatment since triptans were new and VERY expensive. my doctor treated me with butalbital and phenobarbital and even offered seconal to help me sleep. what a mix.....but what i'm getting at here is that it DID help my migraines, which were totally debilitating...yet i needed higher and higher doses to get rid of them. eventually it came to a point where i was taking HUGE doses and experienced little to no pain, ever...but the problem was even just a minor change in that dose would trigger migraines so feirce that the vomiting wouldn't stop and i literally couldn't move. i would have nearly prefered death to that existance.....so i took more and more and more.  long story short, i was eventually taken off these meds with the help of many anti-seizure and tricyclic meds plus huge amounts of non-controlled pain meds. it wasn't a good time but on the other side of that, i found a place where my pain was no longer chronic daily severe pain. infact at this point in my life, i will only get severe migraines once in a great while....where as i WILL experience headaches quite often.

my point is that with the removal of the meds, i gained a huge amount of control over what at one point was a very chronic condition. i know little about opiate addiction, but i do know that taking it every day in higher and higher doses does make it difficult to control chronic pain. having said that, the solution...should there be one.......isnt clear. if you haven't already, i'd check into chronic pain specialists.....i'd see ever specialist you can see to weigh all surgical options or even non surgical. i'd try to find a doc who specifically knows how to treat chronic pain with opiates so that you know you're getting the best options available to you.

the only reason i've commented at all is because my pain is caused by a very different reason than yours.....BUT i know that over medicating with pain meds DOES produce more pain in the long run. sometimes this is a side effect we just have to live with because there really is nothing else that will help....this is worst case scenario. sometimes, though....we get lucky and do find other things that will work possibly even better than daily opiate treatment. what i do know is that the process to finding out for sure what life would be like without the pain meds is grueling...its tough and it downright hurts....and it may not pay off at all....but then again, it might. it did for me. however, as i've said...the severity of my pain can not be questioned.....it was horrible.....but the actual CAUSE of the pain was very very different than your own.....so i may have responded well to getting 'clean' based on many factors that worked in my favor that are not going to be working in yours. well, i wish you the best of luck. i always hate to read posts about chronic pain. its so terrible that anyone should have to live with it. i really hope you find something that works for you.....whether it be getting clean and trying other meds or surgeries, or else finding a good chronic pain specialist that will be able to provide the right kind of opiate therapy to keep the pain under control for the longest amount of time.
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Jim - good work with the doc. I'm convinced you are serious about finding a balance that works for you and your last few posts have been very encouraging. Please do not be put of coming here by the odd negative, unhelpful comment.

Everyone - none of us are in a position to be throwing stones as Trd says, none of us are perfect, so please don't do that :/
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i thought only politicians threw stones?
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No...only people who live in glass houses....;P
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Thank you for the tip on the IDD therapy....I think I will ask my insurance company their thoughts on trying this approach in lieu of very expensive drugs and/or surgery, which my doctor tells me in not a good option due the severity and different locales of structure degradation to my spinal discs..thank you very much again.
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which comment are you speaking of?

talk of throwing stones and odd negative unhelpful comments......

whats going on with this place? are we waging a war amungst ourselves?

well i know know which comment you're talking about, but to be clear the first part of MY comment doesn't even reference anything that constructionjim has said. it was actually a response to his post that made me fear that people here might just be whipping out their addictions and comparing their size a little too ignorantly. instead of leaving comments that aren't clear as to whom they are directed, perhaps you should indicate exactly WHAT you mean and to WHOM you are saying it.....thus ending this stupid back and forth about throwing stones and whos addiction is worse.

my comment wasn't negative...perhaps unhelpful but what does that matter. if you are not speaking of my comment, then perhaps you should specify as it leaves everyone in the thread above you wondering just what you're talking about. seems to be a bit counter to the 'negative and unhelpful' stone that you threw.
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I saw nothing wrong with anything you said, please accept my apologies if it read that way.
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accepted. and please accept my apologies for accusing. i maintain what i said though....it seems so many people are throwing so many accusations around in this thread that it is hard to know whats directed at who. this is a very odd thread to begin with. it would have been better for me not to have said anything at all. kinda places me in an awkward situation. oh well
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This thread that I started has strayed far from what I was asking/discussing, and it appears to have created some ill (perhaps that is a little bit strong) feelings between some members.  That is the LAST thing that I was hoping to accomplish.  Nor was I intending to create a comparative analysis of WD's from differing chemicals.  Some of my comments were perhaps a little strong, but they were the result of effects of the practically CT WD's I was experiencing at the time.  With that being said, I offer a sincere apology to anyone whom I might have offended and I respectfully request that you delete this string from the discussion board.
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Dissension breeds, especially in a community of addicts. You are surely not the first to accomplish this, and will not be the last. Ask MH to have the post removed and perhaps start over with your new attitude. Best of luck.
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the first line of IBKleens comment above says it all...it's true. i stand by my first comment, although the second i do regret. doesn't matter though...it happens from time to time and i did express my apology. as far as this thread being deleted, well as weird as it is and even with the finely laced mudslinging going on...this also happens from time to time. its regrettable...but it does. sometimes it makes stronger members within this community. either way i wouldn't want to see this thread deleted because it does contain some good advice as to your situation and it would be a much larger shame for that to be lost to anyone else who may also come here for answers to problems similar to yours. this thread isn't perfect, but in the future it may just help someone else in your situation. your problem is not all that different than what others here have faced, and you deserve to seek help here. i think this post should remain as it is and hopefully moving forward everyone just tries to take the higher road. i certainly will. again....this IS a forum of addicts...many of which are in the first stages of withdrawal or newly clean. its not surprising that our tempers flair from time to time. it is regrettable when we fight amungst ourselves, though. there's not too many other people out there to lean on. thats all i'll say on this topic...for whatever little it may be worth. i do hope they don't delete this thread. it would be a shame to loose whats here.
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As to whether or not this thread is deleted...I will leave that to the moderators & community.  As to the "stones" and "accusations", let me offer this thought.  When we, as human beings, communicate there are a host of nuances,tone inflections, body language, etc, that contribute to the intent and objectivity of what is being conveyed at the time.  However, when we communicate with the written language, all of this is lost and the interpretation of what we are reading is often clouded by our own mental state at time, and those subtle clues needed to accurately understand what is being conveyed by the "speaker" are substituted with nuances of our own making.  This often leads to misunderstandings and assumptions on our part that have skewed the intent and meaning of the message.  That being said, and as has been commented several times in this thread, we are all human and therefore subject to making mistakes.
I agree with my_mayberry, let's move on.  
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I too agree completely. I also agree with what you mentioned about Jim. Two people could read the exact same post while having two completely different opinions about it. Now if we could hear the poster's tone of voice for see facial expressions than both would have the same understanding and completely understand where the original poster was coming from. But like you said, out here in cyber world that can't happen and it can really cause a post to go in the wrong direction. We are all guilty of it at times.

As for this post going in the wrong direction. It happens all the time. Most of the time it gets back on track just as this one has. I think the post shows that no matter how heated a discussion can get, it always tends to get back on track.

I too apologize for anything negative I said. Time to move on.

So how are you feeling today Jim? If you don't mind me asking, what are your plans? I know you went back to the doctor and he will be checking to make sure you stick to the prescribed amount. Originally I made the assumption that you were going to try and get off of all pain meds. Are you going to try and taper off of them or are you going to try and stick to what's prescribed? As others have mentioned taking narcotic pain meds do cause more pain. I feel Mayberry explained that very well in his post. Have you considered tapering off completely so you can accurately judge your pain? I'm here to support you no matter which route you decide to take but in my opinion it may be worth a shot. I also liked how Mayberry said that even if one decides to get off of them completely it won't be easy and it may all be for nothing because some may have to continue taking them. I thought I would be one of those that would have to take them for the rest of my life but was relieved to find out that I can manage my pain by other means. I sure hope you find that it's the same way for you.

I hope you can find ways to manage your pain. There are many here that have been in a similar predicament so you will get some sound advice. If I can be of any help just let me know.

I'm glad you found the forum. You won't find a better place for support.

Best of luck to you Jim.


Brian
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Okay...I'm the big baddie that posted something construed as negative. I used a poor choice of words...I apologized for it and moved on.  Now we're still talking about it.  I was only hoping that since Jim was squared away with his doctor and the meds, he'd be all set and not have a reason to post because he was feeling BADLY but more because he was feeling BETTER.    I shouldn't have to explain this. Anyone who knows me knows I'm very compassionate and sometimes very helpful!  There IS one thing that I am not and that is perfect...
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i was referencing a grateful dead song:

So the kids they dance, and shake their bones
And the politician's throwing stones
Singing ashes to ashes all fall down
Ashes to ashes all fall down

lighten up....


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So, I came here to find out "which is stronger Oxycontin or Opana?" because I wanted to know which drug is stronger?  That is what I typed in Google. But I was caught up in the drama of it all.  Not sure how I got here.  It took me a while to figure out that this site is for recovering addicts.  I'm just curious Jim... Did you know that it was for recovering addicts?  Because I didn't at first.  But if you did, then I think that all the "stones, un-helpful or negative comments" were proper.  If like me you didn't then I can see why you said what you said... kinda.  If you write a post like you did (the very first post) about something like... "how's this going to end or the end of the game" (something similar to this) and talk about suicide and so forth.  That your taking so much medication and trying to take less etc... to a recovering addicts site?  Your going to get the answers you got.  I agree with what was said with the info you gave.  Overall, I think it's great to have a site like this.  Even if some people's feelings might get hurt.  Things like illegal drug activity, or drug abuse, it doesn't really matter which. This activity is corrupting America.  It's hurting all of us, Well, Illegal drugs, we all know how that's hurting us.  Prescription drug abuse is making it hard for legitimate people with chronic pain to get the help they need.  Doctors not believing people, or prescribing less medicine then necessary because of doubt. Regardless of if or when it turns or might turn into an addiction or even just dependency?  The more the abuse, the more difficult it is to help those that truly need the help some narcotics provide.  A "quality of life" issue is important to many chronic pain sufferer's.  If someone has terminal cancer and has 6 months left then it wont matter if they are abusing the medication right?  
I want to Thank all of you for putting your thoughts out in the open to help anyone that might need it.  These comments can help all of us to certain point.  I'm sure anyone can be enriched with some of the good thoughts here, regardless their drug behavior status.  Good job guys!  I hope all of you continued success.  Loved the drama too.  :)
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The first question to ask  is whether or not you are truly addicted. Drug dependence is NOT addiction, nor is drug tolerance, and don't let anyone tell you it is. True addiction is a crazy, out of control feeling that leads you to seek out and use more medication than you need to control your pain and prompts you to do foolish and self destructive things to get it. You can recognize addiction in yourself, if you're honest; but getting it under control often requires professional treatment. If you're not addicted, but merely experiencing intractable pain that requires strong analgesic drugs (usually opioids) to control it, then worrying about addiction is a waste of your time. Find a doctor or clinic with sufficient expertise in chronic pain to help you make the distinction (if you can't do it by yourself) and then treat your pain aggressively, if that's what you need.
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