What to take to feel motivated again

I keep reading that i wont feel motivated to do anything when i start going through detox. is there anything i can take to help with that? and what exactly is this new drug called bup?

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

If there is a pill that will motivate you during and after detox, I'd like to know about it myself.  It doesn't exist.  Addiction is but a symptom of a greater problem in our lives.  That is what we have to deal with after detox...the real problem that causes us to go back again and again to drugs.  J.B.

[chad]

There is really nothing anybody can give you to make you TRULY HAPPY!!! You have to "WANT" to do it. It's just like anything else, making money, building trust in a relationship, loosing weight, I lost 250 pounds, it takes work...HARD WORK.  The only helping hand you'll ever get, is at the end of your arm.

[dee dee]

I decided to try to cut back today. hopefully to eventually wean myself off pain pills,well all i'm doing is clock watching and feeling like ****. i have cried more times today already than i have cried in a year.this is awful and i havent even really started. this is really scary. DeeDee

[Brighty]

I agree with JB and Chad... and wow to the incredible spirit Chad has developed !! But I do believe that good nutrition is essential to combat lots of feeling poorly. The B-complex vitamins give me very noticable pick-me-up when I feel run down. IMPORTANT information was posted in the thread below on opiate withdrawl (withdrawal) and depression. Chris and Ginette gave great information on the amino acid L-Tyrosine !! Read the whole thread to find the comments.... and Chris also added a supplement regimen to his routine and it sounds worth trying. God bless you... you will make it !! Love, Brighty

[Gina]

I was reading Dan's post from Dec.7, 2000 in which you stated that you have a protocol from Dr. Payte MD that will offer an almost pain free detox using his technique to get off the methadone. The average patient just diesn't know this technique. Dan, you said you went from 120mgs. to 45mgs with little discomfort. I AM VERY INTERESTED IN LEARNING THIS TECHNIQUE!!!!! So pleases Dan, get in touch with me at ***@**** or here if it's better for you. One more thing, because of my travel distance, my counselor stated I would be a good candidate for LAAM. Does it really hold you longer? I would only have to go to the clinic 3 times a week. Mon., Wed., and Fri., What happens when theres two days off in between? Does anyone have an answer, I don't know if Dan will see this.  SORRY FOR BUSTING IN THIS THREAD, BUT I'M A BIT ANXIOUS!

[mike d.]

Has anyone here been to Dr.Gooberman in southern N.J. for his treatment involving buprenorphine and the naltrexone pellet implant.I remember a gentleman who went last summer, but don't know if he still visits this site.If anyone has gone thru this treatment please let me know.I am 6 days into this treatment and have questionsabout the pellet implant. Thanks.

[Gina]

I haven't been to Dr. Gooberman, but did share what I read regarding his medical license being in jeopardy due to his rapid detox using bupernine(sp) and 7 people dying from this treatment. His response was something to the effect that 7 out of 2300 people is not bad odds considering their addiction would have killed them anyway. He is supposed to appear in court on Feb. 28 to begin the case. (That is Dr. Gooberman and his partner.) The biggest problem with his treatment is the lack of aftercare once detox is finished. Within a few months the meth clinic where I have been attending for the past six weeks is supposed to be using this as an alternative. The dr. at my clinic has been using bup. for a long time on an inpatient level and will be the one going to Philadelphia to train other drs. willing to use this in their offices when it is approved. There was a women who was posting on here not too long ago who went through Dr. Goobermans treatment and said she experienced very little discomfort. She then posted that she had slipped back and was using again. I can't remember her name but maybe she will see your post. I hope this has been helpful.

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

I remember reading the post too.  She did relapse and stated that she was going to have to make another trip to Dr. Goob.  That says it all.  AA and NA are free.  Does Dr. Gooberman have any wuarantee with his "program" that he charges mega bucks for?

[mike d.]

Thanks for the info Gina. They are not currently doing rapid detox at Dr. Goobermans,I'm sure due to the problems with the law you just stated.I was not going for that treatment, don't like the sound of it at all.I had bupenorphine injections just under the skin for 3 days plus clonodine when needed for discomfort. They want me to come back this friday for the implant I spoke of.Besides the cost,($375.00) I'm a little leary of this.It is vey business-like at the center, also on his web site. But this is the first full week I've been oxy free in years.Perhaps that woman may post. Thanks folks, I'll stay in touch.

[Brighty]

Yes... I am from the Philly area... South Jersey to be exact and he is well known. I have known of him for some years. In fact my daugher went to school with his son, they lived in our neighborhood, and his niece was my daugher's drug buddy... some small world isn't it ?? I live in Florida now. Anyway,  I just posted in a thread below here on opiate withdrawl (withdrawal) and depression and he is the doctor who said "no mood enhancers for addicts" to my friend's nephew... HOWEVER... for the $250 he got 3 take home shots ( subcutaneous ones) of buprenorphine and was written scripts for baclofen( muscle relaxer), clonidine ( anti-hypertensive) and naltrexone, an opiate antagonist. This young man had been through withdrawls before and couldn't face detox again... the bup really helped him ... it is a long acting drug and if they would hurry up and put it in a pill ( sublingual) form in this country it would be much easier to dispense and easier to use for maintenance. I do think he feels he got what he went to this doctor for but feels he could use a few more of those shots but doesn't want to spend the money ... but if he needs to he may... the depression is a problem now and he finally went and got an AD.. thank goodness... better to try that than to relapse.

I think if you want to learn more, particulary about this doctor's background and the legal problems you should go to his web site. I think it's www.detox-center.com   and there is a link to the news articles about him and the lawsuits regarding the deaths of patients that went through the rapid detox procedure. The link for the Philadelphia Magazine is the best article... Philly Mag does good reporting. He is not permitted to do the rapid detox any longer and my personal opinion is to not have anyone do it. There is no type of detox that guarantees that a person won't relapse... the issue is getting people to face the prospect of quitting  and planning a recovery by making it less traumatic to go through withdrawl (withdrawal)... to that extent it seems that the buprnorphine can help.... if it can be given for long periods for maintenance then even better... it is supposed to be much easier to get off of than the opiates or methadone.  I am no expert... I am repeating what I believe the scoop is... go to the web site, and do some other research on detox.. I think www.firehorse.com has a list of methods... Good luck and God bless you... PS>>>> yes, a lady on this board did go to him and yes, she relapsed... I think she has chronic pain and that is a serious issue.  And as mentioned, detox does not prevent relapse... a committment to a recovery plan is how that is done. Hope I have helped a bit. Love, Brighty

[Brighty]

You wanted to know about the naltrexone implant... I am so sorry...I don't know because the young man I spoke of refused the implant... he accepted the script for naltrexone... I think the pellet was another $350 plus he was also afraid to have something like that. I do know that for a heroin user the implants are dangerous and some addicts have died... it's hard for me to understand why someone would use heroin with this in, knowing full well they could not get high. But it's happened.. they could not feel the effects because of the naltrexone and overdosed and died. I believe the pellet is a time released thing and the purpose is to have a continual supply in the body... but I really do not know what this drug does for someone who is finished with detox... to me it's a psychological crutch... I hope someone who knows will explain it to me. My daughter was a heroin user and I was terrified that she would get this implant... I did not think anything would stop her from using... so I have a very poor view of it myself. I am very sorry to rattle on and not be able to help you any better. Love, Brighty

[mike d.]

Hi Brighty, thanks and yes I have been to his site. I'm assuming your friend's nephew did not have the naltrexone implant? I'm not very clear on the purpose of the implant and they have not been very clear explaining it to me.
The buprenorphine was very effective as was the clonodine.I know this isn't the end of te issue, but it is the first time in years I've made it past the 1 week mark oxy free. Actually starting to feel decent. Anywa thanks again...hope you are well. I've been following the posts on this site since last june! Take care and good night!

[spook]

Opioids are Anticholinesterases,meaning they inhibit the enzyme that breaks down Acetylcholine.Acetylcholine and Dopamine form a Balance in the CNS(brain)that is,if one increases the other decreases.When one stops taking their anticholinesterase ie oxycodone,codeine,heroin,morphine,hydrocodone.oxymorphone(tried 3,6-diacetyl,14hydroxymorphine lately,good god what a RUSH) ad nauseum,then the Acetylcholine that has ACCUMULATED is "Explosivley"released causing a relative Dopamine Deficiency.Now for the bad news DOPAMINE is the NEURO-CHEMICAL,called a "Neurotransmitter"responsible for DRIVE or INITIATION of Human behaviour,without sufficient levels, well,you are going to have to discover something DEEPER and less well understood by Neuropsychopharmacologist like me and that is WILL POWER,it is understood that EGO and Willpower are mutually exclusive and EGO is Dopamine Driven,but what areas of the brain light up under a PET scan(positron emission tomoghraphy)is not at all revealing.
  Anyway one major area of Neurons,that exist in such a balance is known as the Striatum or BASAL GANGLIA and these structures(one in each hemisphere) are responsible for the "T.I.M.E","M.M.M" effect ie the Termination. Initiation. Maintenance. and Exclusion. of Mood. Mentation. and Movement.Opioids upset the basal ganglionic balance so I presume you have experienced difficulty in initiating and maintaining Movement(ie doing ANYTHING) and Excluding Mentation(especially the thought of taking more Opioids).Simple is it not,I once took advantage of this knowledge and used a centrally acting anticholinergic drug (BENZHEXOL)"Artane" its like Atropine but with much less side effects,lets just say it fixed the Dopamine problem,Buzz,Buzz,but Opioid withdrawal is much more than just a relative overload of acetylcholine in the Striatum,even our immune system cells have Opioid RECEPTORS on them,their are so many different systems affected/effected by Opioids that I just wrote a book about it,anyway enough for now seeya ..........

[spook]

Buprenorphine (Buprenex)Same basic Molecular Stucture as Morphine except,N-Methyl,-ie-cycloproply,6-Methoxy and other modifications.
EFFECTS:
Limited stimulation long-duration of action (partial agonist action) of mu receptors(Opioid), which is responsible for its analgesic properties....as partial agonist, ceiling to analgesic effectiveness, euphoria, and respiratory depression.
Low doses: substitute for morphine (in morphine-dependent individuals) and analgesic (in nontolerant individuals).
High doses: do not substitute for morphine, and can #"speed" withdrawal symptoms-(#"precipitate" NOT,I REPEAT,NOT EXPEDIATE withdrawal symptoms)
Alternative to methadone for narcotic detoxification/maintenance programs.See below for "bottom line"Spooks personal experimentation and conclusions(#above included)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Just another Opioid,I used Buprenorphine(Temgesic in Aussie land) approx 1mg IV daily for 2 weeks and obtained a nice RUSH followed by a High somewhere between Codeine and Morphine,withdrawals are a lot easier than afore mention pure "mu" agonists however post detox craving continued for a week,resulting in a relapse(I took it again once,then never since).
   I would like to state for the RECORD that well over 50 years ago a well known group of scientists discovered a Chemical(Drug if you like)that not only prevented Tolerance to Morphine but also Withdrawal symptoms upon cessation ,but MOST importantly it did this without affecting the acute effects of Morphine,ie Analgesia,Euphoria,etc.It is called "Cyclohexamide".
   OUR GOVERNMENTS ROLE IN IT ALL,They even tried to PROHIBIT alcohol at one point in our pathetic modern civilization AND FAILED,if you look into the "Harrison"act,you will see thast thou in powerment and thus corrupt placed in hands of POLICE not DOCTORS the problem of Opioids Dependence(Addiction if and only if you must).
Narcotic (Opioid Drugs Abolish Drive mediated behaviour to an extent that threatens the foundations of our modern Autocratic Materialistic Atheistic civilized? SOCIETY.Once free of its grip you will thank GOD for life back,no hurry,some have real pain,ie physical pain,BUT I hear you think is not emotional or psychological pain real,Well I already told you we live in an Atheistic,Material Society,get your priorities right,FIRST MONEY,then POWER,then ...........................well you tell me I am not a Polititian.Good luck-Cheers.

[Brighty]

Good morning,Mike. Congratulations on your first clean week. Blessings on your continued efforts. I just read your earlier posts on this thread... apparently the climate of the office was the same for my friend's nephew and his family. They did not give them a clear explanation of the naltrexone implant either and they really did push it. He did get the script for the oral naltrexone filled but the last I heard he was not taking it. I hope someone who understands this topic will reply and enlighten us... we know naltrexone blocks the effects of opiates... so is it's use in a post opiate withdrawl (withdrawal) situation basically to act as a psychological barrier to using?? I have heard it reduces cravings but have also heard that is incorrect... it that were true it would be a miracle !! Best wishes... and if you find anything out,please share it with us. Love, Brighty

[Brighty]

I happen to share your beliefs about the government in the promotion of this slavery... I consider it to be a profit issue. I am certain that there will continue to be suppression of "cures". I will ask... why did you do these experiments on yourself ?? Also you mentioned taking the buprenorphine intravenously... I believe this is a very contra-indicated method of delivery... did you make a typo ? Best wishes, Brighty

[spook]

Buprenorhine can be taken SC,IM or IV no problems,Some Doctors even think that you should never take Methadone IV,rubbish,Codeine is definately a no no,and even Morphine you should do it over a 3-5 min period.I have explained my experiments elsewhere have a look around this Forum

[mike d.]

Brighty they do not offer any info and you cannot get through to a Dr. I thought of calling the pharmacist who filled the clonodine and muscle relaxer. He was very helpful, but he is the pharmacist that Gooberman sends you to so....he may have a vested interest in this pellet. He may even be the one who makes it! Gooberman's site states that the pellet is not made by a drug manufacturer. The visit was definetly helpful I'm feeling pretty decent today. But it was strange. The Dr. who tended to me looked skeptical when I told him I had a prescription for oxys that insurance paid for every month. Kind of like"well, what's the problem".Then when I kept asking about how to inject the buprenex under my skin,I didn't get much help. I've never injected myself before and I guess most of his "clients"are pretty handy with syringes. Anyway...I'm leaning against the inplant.If I had more info telling me it would help, I'd spend the cash...God know's what I've spent chasing down oxy's when my script ran out in 10 days.
Thanks for your time Brighty, you have been a help.

[Brighty]

Thanks for your reply. Maybe I missed when you shared about your background and experience and the nature and reasons for these experiments. But I can't read this whole board... especially when so much gets deleted to make space for new things. Can you please direct me to the correct thread(s)? I did see that you are a Neuropsychopharmacologist... did I get that right ?? Would that be why you do/did experiments on yourself ?? Just curious but where do you submit this data you gather on yourself ???? Now please don't think I don't appreciate your incredible replies but it appeared you were replying to Dee regarding her desire to feel motivated post opiate withdrawl (withdrawal). You did a great job telling her what may be happening with her whole biochemical system.... but I don't think you suggested what she could take or do for this. That would be assistive to her, I bet. Love,  Brighty

[Brighty]

Hmmmmm....not made by a drug company... so perhaps this pharmacist compounds the pellet... is it some exclusive patent of Dr.G's ?? I suppose other doctors use it but frankly he is the only one I ever heard of now that it has come up for discussion. I guess I assumed they were commonplace or something. Yes, I'd call the pharmacist and ask some questions. I hope that Spook can tell us the usefulness or uselessness of naltrexone in any form after opiate withdrawl (withdrawal). Love, Brighty

[spook]

It is the Dopamine Deficit that causes the loss of drive(no motivation)I have used drugs during, before and after acute Detoxification(Hanging out-Cold turkey etc)that increase(augment)dopamine and found them very motivating,they are:
1.Dextroamphetamine-legal-ADHD,Narcolepsy
2.Methylamphetamine-Scedule-1(Research Licence only)
3.Cocaine-Shedule-1(Research Licence only)
4.Tranycypromine(parnate)legal-Antidepressant(MOAI)
5.Tyrosine-Aminoacid(precurser of Dopamine)
As you can see their problems,2 and 3 work the best but are illegal,1-(Dextroamphetamine) could be obtained by symptom mimicing or fraud?,that leaves Parnate and tyrosine,parnate is not as effective as 1.and their are more Autonomic side effects.
Anyway if you take 4 grams of Tyrosine on an empty stomach in the morning then have breakfast or lunch about 2 hrs later you will get an increase in stores of Presynapic vesicular Dopamine,now its time to release some across the synaptic cleft to post synaptic Dopaminergic receptor sites,this is done using the Parnate that you got for depression from your Doctor because NONE of the others work,you get the Tyrosine from a health food shop.
If you could get the Dextro`s you may even enjoy the detox and be more creative than ever,but I am sorry but our goverments have decided that if it feels good ban or heavily restrict it>lets not get into politics again<.
N.b the molecular structure of Parnate(tranycypromine is the same as Dextroamphetamine exept that the Beta-carbon(methyl)is "tied"back to the Alpha carbon(the one next to the Benzene Ring)this makes attach(metabolism)of the Nitrogen group(ie amine)much more susceptible to Monoamineoxidase(an enzyme)however Parnate retains potent Amphetamine properties but is a much stronger MAOI(monoamineoxydase inhibitor)then amphetamines, it still causes the release of Catecholamines(Dopamine,Nor-Adrenaline"Epinephrine"
and Adrenaline) like Amphetamines do, however the enzyme MAO is binding to the Parnate and thus kept busy from breaking down the Dopamine,Noradrenaline and Adrenaline in your brain cells,thus their levels increase and you feel GOOD(not depressed).
  

[spook]

Naltrexone is for Opioid addicts who crave the Euphoria that the drug gives them and cannot get over the "Protracted Withdrawal Syndrome that occurs after detox and lasts up to a year,it gets complicated when a person becomes a drug addict as a result of taking an Analgesic MEDICATION,could you sue the doctor YES/NO (my mother is a Solicitor and owns her own Lawyers Firm)I will let the SocioPoliticoEconomic Manifestations of an answer rest upon all of our heads.
Naltrexone implant to the stomach was the only way a `friend`? of mine could stop using IV Heroin,even though he could detox from it easily,he was like a moth to light bulb,something insidious had undermined his Psychi.He works hard has no personality problems,actually relatively free of Psychpathology,live in a country town.LOVES his wife ans 3 children.I know the Biochemistry behind this insidious thing we call ADDICTION and could treat them and do.
Naltrexone is also a Morphine Derivative,but has major substition upon Morphines N-nitrogen group,such that it fits the receptor site but does not provoke an Action potential-(antagonist),increase firing rate and thus occupies the site and stops other Opioid(agonist)type like Oxycodone,Morphine,etc from binding.It binds much more strongly than Morphine and competes for the receptor and will thus precipitate withdraws and block Euphoria.What people do not realize is that the Euphoria is very indirectly related to stimulation of the "mu"-type Opioid receptor subtype,IT IS DOPAMINE that gets you high and it is lack of its effects that cause the Protracted Syndrome that underpins "Addiction",whether or not that is underpinned by Psychiatric Pathology.

[Brighty]

Goodmorning... WOW!

Well tell me ... why do you think the legal dextroamphetamine is not used with Parnate.. also legal ?? I hope I understood your post... sorry, I am not used to chemistry discussions so I have to re-read them and hope I got it right...Would these combinations along with the Tyrosine perhaps be a good method of combating the after effects of withdrawl (withdrawal)... both the lack of motivation and depression ?? I have not heard of this course of therapy being used. Of all the AD's is parnate used much ??... never heard of it before today... and when you say the others do not work ( I agree for the most part) then do you mean for this situation or do they not work for anything... such as situational type depression. What would you think are the best dosages of dexo and parnate and when should the person be tapered off ?? How do you get to treat people with this combination ??? I mean, can you prescribe ?? I do not doubt for a second that you may be very correct, and I believe that the "cures" out there are withheld..... but since we are not talking about stuff that's not available or not legal then why would there be a reason for this combination of therapy to be withheld. (I do know they give out Ritalin and Adderall (adderrall) like candy )so what would be a reason... other than medical disagreement on the effectiveness or ignorance of the biochemical actions of these drugs.... to not use the drugs you mention ?  What would  a doctor say to a patient if the person asked the doctor for Parnate instead of the common stuff like Zoloft or Paxil??

Thank you for your continued input here which is very interesting !!! Love, Brighty

[Brighty]

Thank you... and I understood your post OK I think...Well I understood how the naltrexone would work if the opiates were still in the body.... BUT... I still do not know how Naltrexone works AFTER withdrawl (withdrawal)... if the opiates are out of the body and the naltrexone is supplied then does it also continue to "fit the receptor site"  since there are no opiates supplied to compete with it ????????? When there are no opiates supplied does the Naltrexone work and have the effect of reducing cravings ?? This would seem to be what happened with your friend. However, I have read many posts on other sites where the naltrexone did not help cravings at all... simply the knowledge that euphoria was not possible helped the person psychologically. The fact that IV heroin users have still craved and used with the implant is indicative to me that the cravings were not controlled ... certainly not enough to cause them to die in the process. Please clarify this action of naltrexone to me. Thanks for your time. Love, Brighty

[spook]

Dextroamphetamine is a dangerous mix with parnate,because of potentiation of subsequent dangerous side effects,,like sub arachnoid hemorrhage(bleeding brain)from high blood pressure.
If you can get the dextroamphetamine use it with the tyrosine.
If you can get the parnate use it with the tyrosine
DO NOT MIX PARNATE AND DEXTROAMPHETAMINE.
I have and WOW I got zapped,no problems,slight headache next morning.
The problem of the mix is greatly overstated,in fact the BOOK says cheese can do the same(in this case it is the monoamine "tyromine"in cheese.It also says to avoid Avocados,bannana skins?,TCA`s,SSRI`s,alcohol,pethidine,Tryptophan(but does not mention tyrosine)look the list is endless you name it PARNATE potentiates its effects both good and bad.Lets hope the DMT crowd do not here about this ,they are always predosing with some crappy herbal MAOI.
Current stats show 15 per Million people DIE as a result of MAOI interactions,Some people have taken 15 tablets (150mg)a day because they liked the buzz and showed no signs of hypertension.
I think it is the only AD left that stimulates Dopamine to a significant degree,and because my depression was caused by lack of Dopamine,it worked well.Maybe they will ban it if people read all this and doctors start getting requests for it specifically.
Parnate was considered suitable for Severely depressed in-patients under close supervision,who had failed to respond to other AD`s(Antidepressants).
However Presciption products guides,now only list it as any other AD,so their is no Restrictions,in fact they call it a non-hydrazine MAOI(very informative)what it is ,is an AMPHETAMINE,but if the Pharmacuetical companies Say that,then the GOVT eyes of suspicion will be aroused along with the Doctors.
Doctors in general do not understand the neurochemical inbalance that differentiates one Depression from another,some people need more Serotonin other Noradrenaline and me Dopamine.
What I was wondering about is the Box that the tablets come in lists a few of the more important things to avoid and one of those is eating Bannana skins?I mean who the hell eats the skin and what is in the skins?I remember an urban myth about scraping the pulp from bannana skins drying and smoking(mello yellow,not MDA)however research into the Psychoactive constituent of bannana skins reveals nothing,I know they are very bitter.
Anyway the first time I had a Strong coffee with Parnate I got a rush similar to an XTC tab coming on.
The first time I used methadone(20mg IV)I almost had an orgasm,I hit the floor and my heart was pounding.
I have not taken Parnate for about 2 years now,but if I wanted a decent AD I know what to ask for.
I know of other interactions of common legal drugs that are at par with Schedule 1 drugs Euphoria,but I think it is my responsibility to keep them a secret,at least for now.
Drugs are not the answer.
life is for living.
My days of experimenting are coming to a conclusion..........

[spook]

The reason the implant stopped him using heroin is because it stops the heroin from getting him high and so theirs no use in using.It is going to be hard for him to get it out isn`t it?.It is stuck in his stomach.
I have heard of Naltrexone stopping the craving and believe this to be a Placebo response,Also if the naltrexone is bound to the receptor how can Endorphins bind and what happens if they have an accident or something and are in severe pain,what will stop the pain.Certainly not Opioids.Apparently Dopamine provides BASELINE analgesia as experienced by STRAUGHT people.Endorphins are really for crisis pain as occurs in all animals.
Craving is possibly different to compulsive thinking,the craving component may be mediated by Nicotinic acid Receptors,which are somehow modified indirectly by the Naltrexone,I do not know.And the repetative thinking Via Basal gangia-Acetylcholine overload(termination of mentation,see above)
I cannot Prescribe,I am not Registered to prescribe to HUMANS.I am not a Doctor only a Scientist.Even Albert Hoffman,tried his LSD-25 a second time after accidently absorbing some through his skin.I don`t think the 60`s would have happened if he did not~you ask why I do these experiments on myself,would you give to an animal that which you would not take yourself?If only the people knew what suffering these creatures endure in Laboratories all around the world,so some Pharmaceutical companies can make more money by releasing something like ULTRAM/PROZAC/ETC/ETC they would never take a new drug again.
God gave us all the chemicals we need to survive,god put the Opium poppy on this earth,so if our endorphins did not suffice we need not suffer,Peyote cactus to expand our visions and consciousness during sacred ceremonies,etc,etc.I have my own religion,I take what I want,when I want.Who is this Modern Medicine man who just seems to make people sicker?.We are at the beginning of a revolution as the current generation gives way to the next,we are the flowers of the future,they are the poison in our minds.

[FlowerChild11601]

Hi Mike!  My name is Maryanne and I am the one who went to see Dr Gooberman last month (actually in January).  It worked well for withdraw symptoms (the bup, clonidine and baclofen) with little discomfort.  However, I am a chronic pain person and found myself in severe pain with no relief.  I used Alleve, hot baths, massage etc. and finally started to take opiates "here and there" for pain relief but not everyday.  After one month, that lead me back to every day use.  I know I will need to visit Dr Goob again to get off them but that leaves me with the chronic pain issue again and how to get around it.  I hear some people say they just deal with the pain and would rather be clean.  I wish that could be me but I have a job, house, family etc that will not stop with my pain.  I wish you good luck and please feel free to ask any questions.  God Bless, Maryanne

[Gloria]

Parnate (Tranylcypromine sulfate) and Nardil (Phenelzine Sulfate) are MAO (monoamine oxidase) inhibitors.  Their mechanism of action is that they reversibly bind to MAO, reducing its activity, thus resulting in increased levels of neurotransmitters (including dopamine, epinephrine, and norepinephrine).  In medicine, we know that most depressive illnesses are triggered by a decrease in one, or several of the neurotransmitters.  Currently, we do not have tests that can pinpoint which neurotransmitter, or group of neurotransmitters, a patient is deficient in.  That is why for most, medicating depression is done by trial and error.  Parnate is an excellent drug to treat resistant depression.  The reason it is not used as a first-line drug is because as Spook mentioned, it has potentially fatal interactions with dietary tyramine; plus, drugs with sympathomimetic or serotonergic properties.  Due to Parnate's long half-life (the time it takes to be excreted fully from your body), it has the potential to cause a fatal reaction (due to a dietary interaction) up to two weeks after stopping the drug--longer if the patient has been on the medication for years.  What foods contain tyramine?  Try taking this medication and avoiding caffeine, chocolate, beer, wine, liquor, aged cheese, bananas, any cured sausage (bologna, pepperoni, salami, summer sausage), anything smoked, yeast extracts, anything pickled, avocadoes, soy sauce...  This is not a complete list, nor does it include all the medications that Parnate can interact with.  I know a physician that had gradually, in minute doses, added some items from the list to her diet while on Parnate.  She allowed herself one cup of coffee daily.  For whatever reason (there had been no change in the coffee, etc.), she suffered a near-fatal, hypertensive crisis following a few sips of coffee one morning.  That is the main reason that people do not hear/know about Parnate or Nardil.  Have you ever looked on the back of cold/sinus medications and there is a warning:  "Do not take this medication if you are on a MAO inhibitor?"  Surprisingly, you will see this warning on many OTC meds.  Parnate is an energizing antidepressant and is a good medication.  Unfortunately, the risks far outweigh the benefits in most cases.  As for the "normal" dosage of Parnate, usually 15 mg. twice a day to start; then increase to a max of 60 mg/day.  I hope this has been helpful.  Maria.

[mike d.]

Hi...thanks for your response...I do have a few questions if you don't mind? I take it you skipped the implant because of your pain issues? Did they "strongly encourage" the implant? I'm 10 days clean,(oxycontin)feeling ok but tired. How long did you take the other meds? I'm wondering if they are adding to the fatigue problem. What did you think of your treatment at Dr.Gooberman's office.On one hand I thought it was great to get the help during that crucial first 3-5 days.On the oher hand I didn't really get very helpful answers to my inquiries. I don't know what I expected.Anyway...thank you much for your time, you too Brighty and Spook:)

[Brighty]

Spooks comments indicate to me that it is a psychological crutch... nothing wrong with that at all !! My concerns were for those ... specifically heroin users... they are often beyond the beyond... you know what I mean... those you realize are pretty handy with a syringe :-)) ... they have used with the implant, overdosed and died. Knowing their resistance to reason or normal emotions I think it's  a possible death sentence to give them an implant. In cases like yours I think you would want to weigh the benefits vs. the risks... and the risks for pill users seem more minimal to me. Congratulations being 10 days off the meds !!! God bless you in your efforts. Love, Brighty

[Brighty]

Your friend had the implant in his stomach...How could he get it out you ask????  I don't know what "in his stomach" means.... deep inside somewhere or under the skin. The implant this doc puts in are a "under the skin" however deep, I don't know... in the lower abdomen/groin area. I watched it on TV... anyway, there are more than a few cases where the hard core addict has cut the implant out. I had heard this but felt it was not true... aaarghhhh... too upsetting to think about ... but my daughter was in treatment with a guy who had done this. Of course he was a hard type... prison, tattoos, not a squeamish fellow.. so they can come out if a person is determined to use... they have died using with them in... I think the majority of people are like your friend and the implant is assistive.. .but still not worth risking death over. Love, Brighty

[spook]

I did some more research and found that Naltrexone and naloxone, have weaker receptor Opioid receptor binding affinity than Beta-endorphin and other endorphins,and are therefore not affected by the antagonists Naltrexone and Naloxone.But it still concerns me about what Painkiller to give them in an emergency situation,possibly an ( alkylhalide general anaesthetic,then remove the implant and commence Opioid tretment for severe pain.Like if they had a car accident and really needed some Morphine ASAP,etc.

[Brighty]

Goodmorning.. yes, I agree and this is always a possibility and a real concern. Love, Brighty

[Thomas02]

Can anyone reading this post please tell me where I can get on buprenorphine in California? Despite my late-night confessional post admitting to loving drugs last week, I am SOOOO ready to get off of opiates using buprenorphine. But it seems like buprenorphine is the exclusive province of this Dr Gooberman guy! Who is he? Why is he the only source of this apparent wonder drug? Please, someone, anyone reading this post who knows how I can get on buprenorphine in Southern California right now PLEASE help me. I simply don't understand why everytime I hear about bup, this Dr. Gooberman is involved -- as if he's making the stuff in his basement! How and where can I get on bup in Southern California now? Words will not be able to express my gratitude to anyone who can refer me to a doctor in SoCal where I can get on bup and stop taking all this toxic propoxyphene (darvon). I want to be free of this addiction in the worst way but it seems like you have to live in New Jersey to get access to the bup cure. How can this be? Please, someone, anyone, I have no pride left and I'm on my hands and knees begging you. Tell me what to do, who to call, where to go. How can it be that this cure is not available in Southern California? Please, anyone, help me!

[Brighty]

Oh my !! Tom... we love you and will try to help. I will go on the net and see what I can find out... I do not think Dr. G is the only one. I will post if I can find a treatment in California. Love, Brighty

PS... I may not be successful.. if anyone else can search it would be a help to Tom/Pat.

[PS >>>>Annie]

I am searching also.  You may have touched on some of these sites already, but I will post them as I find them.  Now, I havent read through any of this sooo.....  One of us, should find something sooner or later.  We are bound to.
Here we go:
You can email him: Dr.Shinderman    
***@****

www.aaap.org/news/csatbrprenorphine9100.html

www.sano.arf.org/announce/college.htm

I will keep looking and post as I find things in relation.  We are having a terrible storm here and the power may go out, so I dont have the time to read through.  Hopefully Brighty will find something to.  We will try anyway.
Hang in there!
Annnie

[PS >>>>Annie]

Sorry, I'm typing so fast that I missed a few letters in that web address.  Here we go again:

www.aaap.org/news/csatbuprenorphine9100html

I'v even stumbled across some chronic pain/med. sites and info. I've never seen before.  I'll keep looking as long as the weather permits.

[PS >>>>Annie]

contact:..........***@****

www.health-center.com

www.gmp.police.uk/highlow/druginfo/drugs14.html

www.docnet.org.uk/wwwboard/messages/40.html

www.undcp.org/bulletin/bulletin/1980-01-01_2_page005.html

As I said before, I havent read through these.  You may have seen this already, but something may show up.

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

I just read something about Bup.  It was compared with Nubain, Stadol and Talwin which are all agonist/antagonists.  All are supposedly addicting as well.  Hell, what isn't addicting these days?  I would just like to know why Bup is so good for detox from opiods.  Is it just some kind of gimick or what?  J.B.

[Brighty]

Thank you for a very enlightening post !! I have always wondered why there are so many AD's and so commonly prescribed but they often do not work. I have heard many people say they felt like a guinea pig when they started the AD therapy. The information about the Parnate is more than a little scary... no wonder I have not heard of anyone on it.... even with a list of contra-indicated foods it is hard to know all the additives in some of the things we eat. I had heard that with some AD's there were certain foods to avoid or the drug may not work.... but this is extreme. You have answered my question explicitly !! I will not speculate on exactly what your mental health profession is but I think we are all fairly certain !!!! :-)) How nice of you to take some time here and provide information that most of us are not able to find so easily. I also have a big clue as to your time restraints. Blessings upon your work. Maria

[FlowerChild11601]

Yes, they strongly suggested using the pellet.  They said that if I slipped and took something and didn't get high, I had a better chance of staying clean.  They are right in that sense but honestly I was afraid to have a long acting, sustained released pellet implanted in my stomach.  I know that my body is REALLY sensitive to things and worried about the effects.  I only took the baclofen and clonidine for like 3 - 4 days.  In fact I have alot left.  I was thinking of just going cold turkey and taking these to help with the withdrawal and then maybe taking Nyquil to sleep - I always have insomnia when I get clean. I wonder if Dr Goob's office is open during the trial - I may not even be able to get the buprenorphine.  I am a nurse and didn't have hardly any questions so I can't help you there (you asked if I had all my questions answered).  Congratulations on being clean.  I know when I was where you are, I couldn't believe I didn't have to take any pills to feel normal.  It was weird to leave the house without looking in my purse to make sure I had "enough" pills with me!  Take care,  Maryanne

[cindi]

I read yiur post about the Buprenorphine, Stadol and Nubain.  Just a little bit of Info hope you don't mind if I share?  Back in 1989 when I started to start taking the drugs from work I started using the buprenex, stadol and Nubain, first before I went on to demerol dialudid etc.  When I would run out of my drug of choice I always had a "stash" of the other stuff to prevent withdrawal.  The stadol, buprenex (buprenorphine) and Nubain did give me the high and they are addicting as well.  However, at the time I was using them they were not locked up in the narcotic cabinet with the demerol, so My guess is at the time they were not really high up on the controlled substance list,  Don't know about that now tho.   I know the Stadol Nasal spray is contolled.  Just a thought  Thanks   cindi

[Thomas02]

thanks to all for looking into the buprenorphine in California issue. I deeply appreciate your efforts on my behalf.

To JB: I have no idea what makes bup better than the rest for detoxing off opiates, but there is a considerable amount of editorial to that effect on the web. I've used stadol and talwin and never got the remotest impression that either would make a good opiate detox drug. I believe bup is different, having special qualities that make it an effective opiate detox drug that someone can self-administer without either being hospitalized or chained to a meth clinic on a daily basis. I wish my state would catch up with the rest of the country!

P.S. As always, give my best to Marty. I think of her welfare every day I log on to the forum and truly hope she is doing better. Same to you, J.B., my friend.

[Thomas02]

what if all you can get is the OTC Tyrosine without the parnate? Will taking Tyrosine by itslef as a supplement over time have a beneficial effect on the production of dopamine or the restoration of endorphine levels? I just don't thik my doctor is going to give me this parnate you mention. Please give me your opinion.

[Brighty]

PLEASE read the post that Maria sent me listed in this thread above here. Parnate is possibly lethal with certain foods !!! Sounds very scary to me.... this is something Spook did not mention.

There were some articles in the archive on bup at one time and also remember Brian who disappeared from here?? he wrote about it and so did some others.... my recollection from those and other information I have HEARD is that bup is long acting, has a slimmer abuse potential than other drugs because of it's antagonist properties, also has agonist properties and is much easier to get off of than other opiates and also methadone. This would mean to me that it would stay in your body, not make you high, would satisfy the opiate receptors and help you through withdrawl (withdrawal) without all the major discomfort and you could be weaned off it it without problems. HEY, I don't know if it's correct... I only read and ask questions... I do recall also that Brian touted it highly. I know in other countries it also is available in pill form ( under the tongue tabs for better absorption) and a person can generally go to the family doctor and say they need to detox and get a script without too much stink. My understanding is that a person could stay on them a couple of months and taper off... this would give a person time to be "satisfied" in the craving dept and have a chance to get their life back. I hope Maria replies to you and all of us on  this question. I have no idea how it compares to Talwin and other stuff you mentioned. I am not supporting that this is some sort of miracle drug. I do know that last year the Wall Street Journal had an article on it being a new "cure" for heroin addicts. I cannot, unfortunately, verify the article. It was sent to me in an e-mail by a family member who was thinking of my daughter. I deleted it a long time ago. My personal opinion is that one cannot know till they have tried it.... I have not heard any horror stories, you know, so I hope you get a chance to find out for yourself. I think the shots have some limitation.... you won't know how many you may have to go back for and the cost is a consideration... but then how much do the drugs cost ??? Another problem for some may be injecting themselves.... you could find someone to do it... I think they show you how. I AM NOT QUALIFIED to tell you to use this, Pat/Tom.... just repeating what I have learned. God Bless You... I hope you find this in California... I found similar to Annie on the sites but cannot tell where these places are. I will try to read a little tonight and see if I come up with anything. Love, Brighty

[Brighty]

I am beginning to understand your dilemma. I am able to find many sites that provide information on bup but not specifically the places where to get it in California. Dr. G in NJ comes up on nearly every search I do. However I have found that the California Society of Addiction Medicine has a site

www.csam-asam.org   ( I cannot get it to open,maybe you can) but you could contact them and ask where to go

Also in California... I think LA... there is the Waissman Institute. Dr. Waissman is a pioneer of that rapid detox.... I have no clue if he has the bup option also but you can call. (Afterall, Gooberman is listed as rapid detox and he does the bup also.)It's 1-888-987-HOPE... they may direct you to what you want if you call them. I will keep looking.

Love, Brighty

[Gloria]

I am in the midst of 72 hours of call for my group, so I cannot elaborate on all of your questions, but will return to this site Monday p.m.  I did want to tell you about Tyrosine because it has been used successfully in "alternative" treatment centers for alcohol/drug withdrawal, depression, and other mood conditions.  The recommended dosage varies--anywhere from 900 mg/day, to 7 grams (7000 mg)/day, depending on your source.  You will have to experiment with what works for you--starting low and adding a little daily to the desired effect.  Tyrosine is a nonessential amino acid that the body synthesizes from phenylalanine (an amino acid).  It is a precursor of several neurotransmitters (dopamine, norepinephrine, epinephrine).  I know you want "Bup," but you can start Tyrosine now.  Tips regarding Tyrosine:  take it at bedtime or with a high-carbohydrate snack so it does not have to compete for absorption with other amino acids.  You should take vitamin B6 (50 mg), along with folic acid (1 mg) to augment Tyrosine's conversion into neurotransmitters.  Tyrosine is generally safe with rare GI side effects except when taken in excessive doses.  I knew of a treatment center that used an "amino acid cocktail" instead of benzos or drug tapering, to withdraw all their alcoholics/addicts.  I think you should give the Tyrosine a try because you have nothing to lose except the cost of the vitamins and Tyrosine.  Contrary to what Spook said, I read in a couple of my natural medicine books that Tyrosine should NOT be combined with MAO inhibitors (Parnate or Nardil).  I hope this is of some help.  Glad you are back posting.  You will be in my thoughts and prayers this weekend.  Best wishes.  Maria

[spook]

4 grams of Tyrosine ON AN EMTY STOMACH,no food for 2 hours,will increase dopamine in the brain,I have done this and got a nice little rush and my drive was increased somewhat,in fact I headed off to the nearest brothel(prostitution is legal in western Australia.I was detoxing from oxycodone at the time and felt like doing nothing,before the tyrosine.
I shouid say That ulike other Amphetamine MAOI parnates antidepressant effect occurs about 40 minutes after injestion and (MAO)liver enzymes return to normal in 3-5 days,not up to 2 weeks like Nardil,also nardil can take up to a week to improve mood,Parnate is just like Dexedrine except for the HIGHLY overstated interactions(so far since the introduction of MAOI appro 30 people wordwide have died as A result of ALL MOAI)and less from Parnate use,Also Parnate causes euphoria and is addictive and has been abused,with people taking up to 150mg a day and they showed no signs of interactions(ie high blood pressure).

[spook]

If you had a pridisposition to Brain Hemorrhagecerebral blood clot),then 20 mg and some mature cheese washed down with a bottle of RED wine MIGHT kill you,BUT as yet not one person on this planet has had this happen to them,In detailed scientific research experiments analsying the exact content of tyramine in many matured cheeses and other foods found they contained levels so low that you would have to eat at least a Kg before hypertension would occur.
As stated before their are no contraindications,just combinations and interactions.
Parnate is cool drug,nody died in Australia yet,been available 30 years now,buy a pack read the box and relax.

[spook]

My Refence was "The Australian Presciption Products Guide",it is the book that Doctors Should look at before prescribing a drug,but rarely do.I would like to note that it did mention L-DOPA (3-4,dihydroxphenyalanine),but not Tyrosine(4-hydroxyphenyalanine)as it also mentioned tryptophan,I presume they have looked at aminoacid interactions.
What I mut make clear is that I am not suggeting you combine PARNATE and tyrosine,What I am saying is pre-dose yourself,say for a week on my above mentioned tyrosine regimen,then stop,next day you can start Parnate AD therapy.

[spook]

My Refence was "The Australian Presciption Products Guide",it is the book that Doctors Should look at before prescribing a drug,but rarely do.I would like to note that it did mention L-DOPA (3-4,dihydroxphenyalanine),but not Tyrosine(4-hydroxyphenyalanine)as it also mentioned tryptophan,I presume they have looked at aminoacid interactions.
What I mut make clear is that I am not suggeting you combine PARNATE and tyrosine,What I am saying is pre-dose yourself,say for a week on my above mentioned tyrosine regimen,then stop,next day you can start Parnate AD therapy.

[Brighty]

For a person not detoxing or using drugs... would the same regimen of tyrosine make them feel good ?? I could use some pick me up... you know... stress, not enough exercise, everyday blahs. I want to go get some.... but I defintetly don't want to get too wired or anything. What would you suggest ? And is it tyrosine or L-tyrosine ??

Also what is 5HTP specifically for ? My daughter is weaned off anti-depressants now and she is taking it as the replacement. She is not depressed and wonders if it's the 5HTP or simply that she's ok now. Thanks for the time.
Love, Brighty

[spook]

http://www.biosynergy.com/5htp.htm

see link Above it will explain your daughters Nutritional supplement,basically L-Trytophan(precurser)people used to be able to get Trytophan but the Health dept banned it sale after a bad batch came out of Japan and caused severe health problems,even though the problem is fixed you still cannot get L-Tryptophan Pure OTC

If you mean the L-tyrosine alone then yes it makes you feel good,without getting wired,try 4 grms on an empty stomach,2 hours before eating,post back and let me know how you went.

If you mean Parnate,then it will wire you up good,no sleep that night.

If you combine them you can expect possible hallucinations and extreme psychomotor excitation.

[spook]

Tyrosine is L-tyrosine,its just that the biologically active form is always the Levorotatory Isomer,ie-"L",so often it is just abreviated to Tyrosine instead of L-Tyrosine.

[Brighty]

I know many of us have had posts disappear. I thought these were missiing and then I realized that they group a whole bunch of them together under the original question and title it "comments" and provide the dates. Brighty

[Brighty]

Thank you... yes I  may go get some tyrosine this week and take it as you directed... when I begin to feel great I will post here and let everyone know.. of course I am not detoxing,nor recovering from any chemical use, so my results may be different. Love, Brighty

[Brighty]

Hi... I hope you find all our comments to you. They are all grouped together under the question at the top of this thread and are listed as "comments from (2-24thru3-3)in case you can't find them !!

There is another site you may want to check

  www.firehorse.com/addict/treatments.html

They list all sorts of treatments I have never heard of such as apomorphine and endorphine treatments. I wonder where you get those and what they are ..... I will naturally do a web search.

Let us know how you are. Love, Brighty

[Brighty]

Can either of you tell us what these treatments may be... apomorphine and endorphine.... they are listed at firehorse.com/addict/treatments.html   as treatment options to get off heroin.. I guess any opiates...but they didn't exactly explain them.

Also to Luke.... what do you think of Ibogaine as a treatment option ?? Have you tried this ?? It would seem probable that you have. Any information would be appreciated. I get alot of info from their subscriber list but am curious of your thoughts. Thanks. Love, Brighty

[Thomas02]

Thanks to all for the considerable research on Tyrosine, etc. I am touched that any of you would put that much time into helping me. I won't forget it.

After digesting all the posts, I am resolved to picking up the L-Tyrosine. Between spook's and maria's posts, I can see that finding the right dosage might be a little tricky.

I am wondering however about one thing:

spook suggests taking it on an empty stomach and maria suggests taking it with carbohydrates at bedtime.

If I may be allowed one more question to this learned group, here it is:
I'm a 47-year old male addicted to the whole range of rx opiates for thirty years. My current steady drug, more or less used as a maintenance drug rather than to get high, is Darvon 65 (plain propoxyphene). I am 6 feet tall and weight about 170 lbs. I have recently undergone a complete physical and, amazingly, came through it with flying colors -- not even elevated liver enzymes from all the pills(!)

Anyway, my question is this: what do you suggest as a beginning dosage for the L-Tyrosine, how often a day should I take that dose (time of day, with or without food, etc), and what about maria's advice regarding taking it with carbohydrates at night? Is that critical? Also, are there any OTC drugs or nutritional supplements that would help the L-Tyrosine work better? I'm just seeking to regain a little "get-up-and-go" I've lost over the drug-taking years.

Again, thanks in advance. I must say, spook's posts are very, very interesting, despite the fact that none of us reading them has access to these controlled substances he experiments with. I have no plans to obtain Parnate, by the way. Just too dangerous, in my opinion.
I did have one more question for spook -- did you or someone else imply that hydrocodone 7.5 is an OTC drug in Australia? If so, how does one in the states take advantage of that? (I still find it hard to believe). This last question is really not important, I mainly want to start the L-Tyrosine but can see how important it is to use it properly to get the desired results.

Peace to you all. Your friend, Pat (for Tom)

[Gloria]

Regarding 5-HTP--the site Spook/Luke recommended for 5-HTP was excellent!  It quoted some studies I was familiar with and had planned to mention to you.  Some additional input regarding 5-HTP:  take it with a high carbohydrate food or liquid (such as orange juice); if your daughter takes more than 300 mg/day, she should have her eosinophils (a type of white blood cell) tested about every 3 months; do not take 5-HTP with antidepressants.  Surprisingly, since 5-HTP is not manufactured like tryptophan, it was disturbing to note that a syndrome similar to that which occurred with tryptophan in the late 90's, was occurring with 5-HTP users.  EMS (eosinophilia myalgia syndrome) has been reported in a few 5-HTP users.  The most current data I reviewed did not report any cases of EMS occurring since '99.  I will always err on the side of being cautious, maybe too cautious; but if your daughter were my patient, I would recommend this simple, inexpensive blood test, every 3-4 months.  The brands I would recommend are:  L-5-HTP from Solaray; or, HTP.CALM from Natural Balance.  Glad to hear that your daughter is doing well!  I believe the 5-HTP is probably playing a role in her improved state of mind and would not stop it at this point.  If she continues to do well after all her restrictions are removed--house arrest, mandatory meetings, etc., then you could try tapering her.  With your daughter's past history, though, I would not be in a hurry.  Hope this helps.  Maria

[Gloria]

In my previous post, I mentioned taking Tyrosine "at bedtime -OR- with a high-carbohydrate snack (so it does not have to compete for absorption with other amino acids)."  Luke's comments about taking Tyrosine on an empty stomach and not eating for two hours afterwards corresponds with the above statement.  Obviously, if your stomach is empty and you do not eat for two hours afterwards; the Tyrosine can be completely absorbed, does not have to compete with other amino acids, and can achieve its maximum potential.  The only purpose for mentioning a high-carbohydrate snack is that if you needed to eat something, high-carbs are less likely to interfere with the Tyrosine metabolism/absorption.  Tom, as for the best time to take the Tyrosine, my natural medicine reference books all state, "best taken at bedtime."  Since no explanations are given, I would assume it has more to do with the "empty stomach" theory, than anything else.  If I find the rationale for taking it at bedtime, I will let you know.  As I also mentioned in my previous post, you need to take vitamin B6 and folic acid along with the Tyrosine to augment its conversion into neurotransmitters.  Tom, not knowing how your body will respond to the Tyrosine, I would start low--2,000 mg/once daily.  I would increase the dose by 1,000 mg/daily until the desired effect is achieved.  Maximum dosing:  50 mg/per pound of body weight/daily.  By now, everyone on this forum should know that I err on the side of being cautious.  Luke said to take 4,000 mg/day...I said to start at 2,000 mg/day.  Since you know your body better than anyone else, take whatever dose of Tyrosine you feel comfortable with.  I am glad that you are giving the Tyrosine a try.  I am also glad to hear that your recent physical did not reveal any problems associated with your long-term use of Darvon.  I have been very concerned about you after reading about the episode you had recently.  Hopefully, things are looking up for you.  Please continue posting.  Best wishes.  Maria

[Brighty]

Thank you for the time you have taken on this topic for me. I am deeply appreciative. I will check the site Spook sent later this evening and am glad to know it will be informative. What are the symptoms of EMS ? Is it caused by too high or too low eosinophils ? And what specific item on a blood panel would show eosinophils or does she need to ask for a specific test ?? Love, Brighty

[Gloria]

A CBC (complete blood count) with differential will determine the level of eosinophils in your daughter.  EMS has the potential to be fatal, but this is very rare.  Most people respond with the withdrawal of the Tryptophan or 5-HTP and a course of glucocorticoids.  As I mentioned previously, I have not seen any recent statistics that have reported any cases of EMS since '99.  Why bother testing her blood, you might ask?  If there is documentation of a potentially fatal side effect that can occur, why not take preventive steps to insure that it does not happen to your daughter?  As to the level of eosinophilia that is diagnostic of EMS--the eosinophils have to be >1000/mcgL.  Other diseases can raise eosinophils to the 500 range, but that typically occurs with parasitic infections or allergic reactions to medication.  I hope this helps.  Maria

[Thomas02]

I wanted to tell you that I purchased some L-Tyrosine (500mg capsules) and I plan to start the Tyrosine therapy beginning at bedtime tonight. I found my Centrum multivitamin contained the B6 and folic acid you said I should include with the Tyrosine. Question:
How much B6 and folic acid do I need to add to the L-Tyrosine?
The multivitamins I have show this:
B6: 2mg
Foic acid: 400 mcg.

I was going to start with 2000 mg L-Tyrosine at bed time plus the multivitamin containing the 2mg B6 and 400 mcg folic acid. (I've been taking the Centrum multitamin with the B6 and folic acid for over two weeks now on general principles. Should I take a second Centrum with the L-Tyrosine just to make sure I'm getting enough B6 and folic acid to ensure that the L-Tyrosine gets a chance to work? I'm serious about this and want to do everything I can to achieve success.

What can I expect to feel, if anything, when the L-Tyrosine begins to work? Any ideas about that? I'm not chasing a high here, just trying to "normalize" my brain chemistry. It would be reassuring if there were some signs or symptoms to look for that told me I was on the right track.

Cindi (and spook), thanks again for the priceless info on L-Tyrosine. Hope you're both doing well as you read this. Peace to you both.

Pat (for tom)

[Thomas02]

I guess my question is, without the 50 MG's of B6 and the whole gram of folic acid to go with the L-Tyrosine, am I just wasting my time tonight taking the L-Tyrosine? Is there some food source of B6 or something I can eat with the L-Tyrosine to get some benefit from it? This is all so complicated!

Please simplify this for me. I want to help my mind recover from all my opiate use over the years. I hear L-Tyrosine can help. But not if it isn't accompanied with all this other stuff! Christ Almighty!

I've got the LTyrosine, what else do I need and how much? And keep in  mind I don't have access to experiemental controllled subtances like spook does. I'm a civilian! Just tell me what I can get at the health food store or over the counter at the pharmacy and I'll be enormously greatful!

Thanks in advance.

tom

[Gloria]

Most individuals report that multi-vitamins stimulate them, so taking a couple at bedtime is probably not a good idea.  Why not take them in the a.m., along with the Tyrosine, on an empty stomach as Luke suggested.  If you need to drink or eat something because the vitamin/Tyrosine combo upsets your GI tract, just make sure you eat/drink something that is high in carbohydrates (orange juice, fruit, whole grain products, veggies).  Food sources that are rich in folic acid/folate and B6 (pyridoxine), that you could consume at the same time as the Tyrosine would include oranges/O.J., bananas, carrots, whole grains (hold the butter or milk).  According to my references, the B6 and folic acid assist with Tyrosine's conversion into neurotransmitters--that would make them non-essential, but helpful in the big picture.  Tom, you will have to experiment with the dosing; plus, you will need Luke to tell you what to expect from the Tyrosine.  I do not have any personal experience with this particular amino acid, but with some others that are reported to aid in cravings, withdrawal, etc.  Also, remember that everyone's brain chemistry is different and Tyrosine may be of no help to you, but do not give up on it until you reach the recommended maximum dose of 50 mg per pound of body weight.  Good luck and keep us posted on how the Tyrosine works.  
I loved your analogy in an above thread about someone's nickname coinciding with their method of communication to the responders to his post.  Please continue your active participation in this forum--you are an intricate part of what makes this forum work.  Maria

[cindi]

Has anyone heard from Annie?  Just wondering how she is doing following her Surgery.  Maria, How is your friend doing?  My prayers are with everyone today.  Love to all cindi

[Gloria]

I, too, wished we would hear something from Annie, but maybe she had to stay in the hospital longer than anticipated.  She also might feel horrible and not even remotely interested in posting.  She has been in my prayers and hopefully the prayers of others on this forum.  
My friend has regained consciousness, but remains on a LVAD.  She has multiple rib fractures from the CPR and has had numerous complications post-CPR.  She is alive and appears to be cognitively intact, so we continue to pray and "be there" for her as she struggles against the odds.  Times like these challenge my sobriety because my heart hurts so bad and I cannot reach for a drug to ease "my" suffering.  I am blessed with tremendous support--an essential tool for my many years of sobriety.  Regardless of support, meetings, sponsorship, etc., we will all be challenged on multiple occasions during our recovery (or attempt to achieve some clean time)--never grow overconfident or complacent in this struggle.  Cindi, my thoughts are with you as you battle against the heartache over the loss of your mother.  Thankfully, my mother is alive and well.  She, too, fears of my relapse, especially during stressful times.  My Dad told me before he died that he felt "blessed" knowing that I was clean and sober as he was nearing his last days of life.  I can never undo the pain and suffering that I caused my parents, but I can live everyday to the best of my ability as the best person I can possibly be.  That probably sounds trite, but one day sober meant more to my parents (and me), than my career or any of my other accomplishments in life.  Best wishes always.  Maria

[cindi]

I am praying for you friend.  How horrible to be clinging to life on a thread especially so unexpectedly.  Routine Surgery  how scary.  Thank you for the kind words Re: my mom  I struggle with this daily.  I don't how long it has been since I have slept a whole night through.  The dreams come, the nightmares, The last thing my mom said to me before she slipped into the coma was "help me"  I assured her we were helping her.  How did you get through the death of your dad?  I don't think this pain wil ever go away.  Even though my dad is alive and healthy and I am 40 years old, I still feel like an Orphan of sorts.  This is why I am moving to Florida, to be with my dad and his wife and my brother and sister. I know my dad fears for my sobriety as my mom did but my dad did not see what this disease did to me prior to treament. My mom did.  It is a horror story in itself.   Our careers and accomplishments are just a small part of it, where would we be without our clean time?  I can at least be serene with the knowledge that mom was proud of me when she died and that...is very important to me but not as important as her knowing how very much I love her. My childhood has been flashing in front of me and my mind is conjuring up memories I never remembered before.  Good memories. I can honestly say my childhood was full of nothing but good memories.  Thank you again for your support and encouragement.  Have a great rest of the weekend   Love to all  cindi

[Brighty]

Thank you both very very much for these posts. As the parent in my situation I can tell you that I felt the devil was living in my home and possessing my child.... I did not even vaguely recoginze the happy, caring, intelligent girl I had raised. The insidious nature of the disease caused a gradual but progressive dereliction that consumed all of us. It took us a while to figure out what was happening. A friend of hers told us and I was so shocked I could not believe it at first. You know how it goes..... by the time she finally accrued criminal charges and was on life support I had stopped praying for miracles and was simply praying for courage to accept God's will. Your comments about one day of sobriety being more precious to your parents than all of your illustrious careers hit my heart like an arrow..... it can all blow away tomorrow..... we are not our career identities... we are not our worldly goods... I don't give one hoot that her friends all graduate from college in 2 months with job offers and corporate benefit packages... to see her come home with her one year clean medallion and the support of the caring souls in NA is all the pomp and circumstance that I will ever have on my wish list. Thank you for another day of peace. Love, Brighty

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

You are discussing things that are near and dear to my heart in these few posts.
Brighty knows that I was able to help get my nephew straightened out and back into a successful life.  He was addicted to crack,alcohol,pot and designer drugs like Extacy.  Today he is a successful contractor making megabucks.  Some time ago I asked him what it was that I did that worked when all else had failed.  He said "you cared and spent so much time with me when I needed someone who understood and did not judge me"...things to that effect.  To this day, he and I have a bond of trusting and love that is very strong. Just to be there and listen is all that some of us need(but that isn't as simple as it sounds, eh, Brighty?)  
Thinking back, this ranks as one of my greatest achievements.  A labor of love.  When you cut through all the BS in life, our love has been the greatest thing we ever contributed.  J.B.

[Gloria]

Today, I was asked to tell someone something that was almost as difficult as telling my Dad, "that there was nothing else we could do."  His response was so chilling, I will never forget it as long as I live--"I haven't given up on me, why have you?  I never gave up on you when everyone else had (referring to my addiction and relapses)."  So, today I told Ann (our office secretary and dear friend), she would lose both her legs--one above the knee and one below the knee.  The medicines we gave her to keep her alive constricted the blood flow in her lower extremities to the point that her legs were without blood flow so long, they essentially died.  Ann's response, so true to the tremendous individual that she is, was:  "thank you, Maria, for saving my life.  My legs are merely a vehicle for travel that can be easily replaced--my life can't."  I hope this sheds a light on why I asked "strangers" for prayers, camped out at the hospital, closed the office so we could all be with her during this time.  I live in the "buckle" of the "Bible Belt."  When my arrest and subsequent trip to Atlanta made front page news in the newspaper, the first call I received was from Ann, who worked as a receptionist for our medical group--"Maria, God has blessed you and given you another chance at life--I will be here when you get back (most of my staff quit amidst the "scandal").  Ann's response regarding losing her legs reflects my belief regarding how precious sobriety is--that Brighty so eloquently penned in her previous thread.  Sobriety and life--without either one, there is no "living (existence)."
I am sorry for rambling.  Please continue saying your prayers for Ann--her struggle is far from over.  J.B., Brighty, Cindi, Annie, Tom, et al., I appreciate your words of wisdom, support, insight, and comfort, more than you will ever know.  Thank you all from my heart.  My time on this forum will remain limited for awhile.  If there is anything that you need my opinion on that is of great importance, highlight the comment so it will stand out.
Brighty, you have asked on a couple of occasions about addicts and pain medication following surgery, etc.  I promise to address that soon, but it will be somewhat lengthy.  As you know from my own experience, pain management can be done successfully without relapsing following surgery or injury.
My love to you all.  Maria

[spook]

My experiments with L-Tyrosine were done in the morning and on an empty stomach because it has a Psychomotor (stimulant)activating effect,I wanted to avoid insomnia and ensure my stomach was empty to avoid competition with other Amino acids,so that preferential uptake of the Tyrosine occured as well as experience the Psochotropic feelings of the Amino acid .(8x500mg tablets) on an empty stomach.I recommend only doing it once a week or so,as the effect is not entirely reproducable if done three days in a row.Effects start in around 45 mins and include a generalized feeling of personality improvement as opposed to general mood enhancement feeling of well being(mild euphoria),and an increased ability to laugh at things,Also I noticed that I suntanned very quickly,and felt calm but alert.
Because Tyrosine is the precurser for Melanin(skin pigment) it is normal to suntan quicker,Tyrosine is also the precurser for Thyroid hormones that regulate our metabolic rate.
Actually I went into the sun on day 2 of the dosing experiment and noticed a considerable amount of suntan after about 20 minutes,I was amazed.
Notes I was drug free at time of experiment Ie not addicted to any drugs nor was I depressed.And it still had a considerable effect upon me,on day 3 Dose,I could not notice the effects.

[Thomas02]

spook, thanks for the info. You say take 8 500MG tablets on an empty stomach one morning a week? What about cindi's recommendations about combining the L-Tyrosne with 50mG B6 and Folic acid. Is that absolutely necesssary to get the effect you're talking about? Thanks in advance for the info.

[spook]

No definately not essential,but most probably could enhance effect somewhat,I think I might go and get some soon-thinking back on how good it was,but remember,it not something you can do everyday(won`t work)I probably would of kept on taking it once a week but I got distracted by stronger "drugs".

[cindi]

Good Moring, I thought I would have some quiet time before I got my kids up and ready to go,  My son is able to go to work with me...I teach one class of pre-schoolers and he is in another class.  Anyway back to the point...I was sitting here thinking of course about mom, what do I ever think about anymore and I thought about all of you.  Your struggles with yourself, Brighty, your struggles with your daughter, and how much of an encouragement and inspiration you are to me.  I know I am all grown up with babies of my own but for some reason I feel like a child again looking up to all of you for answers and encouragement.  I know there is no one that will take the place of my mom but Brighty, you are the model of what a mom should be.  The love you show, the caring and the compassion and the fierce protectiveness I see in your words are so much that of my own mom it is hitting me so hard this morning,  I only wish she was here to guide me again in my bad times, and share my happy times.    If you ever do decide to write a book, I'll be the first to buy it. Maria, I know the feeling of making the news all to well, I was headlines for quite awhile I was devastated but learned to hold my head up when I walked and look people in the eyes.  I am ok with who I am today, sometimes I forget that but then I have all of you that I look to everyday and I love you all      cindi

[Thomas02]

Another question, if you please about the L-Tyrosine. Since I can't get this parnate you mention, how, through, legally obtainable drugs, can I utilize the L-Tyrosine? Another poster recommended B6 50 mg and folic acid, both things I can get from the health food store. What is your opinion of this advice? Will just taking the L-Tyrosne by itself once a week on an empty stomach, as you mentioned in a previous post, do any good? I don't want to be dosing myself with 8 500mg L-Tyrosine capsules unless I know I'm combining it with whatever it needs to have its beneficial effect. Most of the drugs you mentioned as being helpful or necessary for making the L-Tyrosine work are amphetamines, not easily obtainable. Even if they were, I already have enough drug habits and I know I'd get hooked on parnate or dextroamphetamine or whatever form of speed in a big hurry. Hardly the effect I had in mind! Any help you can provide of a practical nature would be greatly appreciated. I'm hoping I can do all this from health food store products. Thanks, again, spook, for all your help.

[spook]

I thought I had already answered all this,YES Tyrosine 4g`s on an empty stomach in the morning once per week nothing else no vitamins,parnate,dexedrine,etc just water a few glasses and you can honestly FEEL its effects.Go for it!.Health food and drug stores all have it.

[Gina]

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer the question again. I know it takes time to type 3 lines. Besides this is the first time I read it and now I'm going to try this. You don't have to respond, I know how busy you are. Just posting to inform, that's all.

[Thomas02]

thanks, spook, for repeating yourself and clarifying that for me. Thanks, also, for the manuscript. I'm in the middle of getting new employment so I might not be able to take a serious look at it for a few days. The excerpt you posted, however, was fascinating, some of it over my head, I admit, but nonetheless well worth reading.

The reason I asked about the L-Tyrosine again was because another poster implied it wouldn't be effective without several other substances.

[spook]

As from the above posts one would POSSIBLY believe that PARNATE is an incredibly dangerous EVIL drug on its own and when combined with things like Tyrosine or Tryptophan or 5HT becomes absolutley LETHAL.(bacteria converts Tyrosine to Tyramine in the Gut,so have PARNATE a few days after the Tyrosine).
Well here are some more `FACTS` to alleviate any Paranoia furbished.Note Iproniazid is just like Parnate except longer lasting.

ABSTRACT:

page 582.

   (with 15 g,(Tryptophan) orally with 150 mg of iproniazid[MAOI]) "this was a daily
   treatment given to schizophrenic patients, tryptophan along with an
   antidepressant which is a monoamine oxidase inhibitor. Most showed
   marked changes such as an elevation in mood, an increased
   involvement with other people in their ward, and an increased
   extrovertism. A separate study of this composition with the addition
   of the amino acid L_methionine produced in about half of these
   patients a toxic or deliriod state."
=================================================================
Dare I suggest the combination of Tyrosine 5g and Methionine 8g and following 36hr break the taking of 20mg PARNATE.
Methionine being a methyl donor(precurser to homocysteine) resulting in Methylated Catecholamines(PMPEA) and in the case of Tryptophan Metylated Indoleamines,like DMT,alpha-MT