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Wil it ever stop??
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Wil it ever stop??

Hi All, Ok how long have I been coming to this forum?? Umm yes, too long under the wrong conditions. So sad how this has happened over and over again!! Today I'm going to see a physch. He seems very kind so I hope it works out. We are going to start a sub plan. I want off so after a gang of research and a million tries I'm going this route to see if I can do this once and for all :(..For all those that know me and even the ones that don't thoughts are always appreciated. As always, thanks everyone!
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480448_tn?1403547723
Hey hon.

I wanted to give you some pointers.  I have some experience with subs, as I worked in a clinic for a while PT.

There is actually a formula the doc uses to come up with the induction dose.  What were you using?  How much?  That does seem a little on the high side, but without knowing what you're on, it's hard to say.

With subs, you MAY feel some very mild w/d symptoms for a few days to a week.  That's not because you're in active w/d, and that doesn't mean you should be taking more sub. Like weaver said, with sub, less is better.  Most people, even heavy users, can easily be maintained on a low dose.

The reason you may feel a little icky is because sub is a partial agonist, where an opiate is a full agonist.  Both hit the receptor, but with sub, it will take a few days for it to "fill" that receptor like your DOC did.  People tend to panic when they feel a little achey (achy), and think they have to take more.  To re-dose with sub (due to being symptomatic), due to its long half life, is usually pointless.  So, at the worst, you may feel some muscle aches.  Nothing that Motrin couldn't take care of.

I hope the clinic you found is a good one.  That makes all the difference in the world as to the success of sub treatment.  They should be providing, or referring you to a therapist of some sort, and you should be required to drug test, preferrably at every visit.  You should be required to come weekly for about 2 months, then down to bi-weekly.  They should also want to see you a day or two after your induction dose, to make sure the dose is correct.  Most likely, you'll end up needing less.  I saw heavy heroin users induced at 2mg 3x/day.

The idea behind sub is to let someone stabilize on their initial induction dose, and stay there for at least a few weeks, or a month.  Then, your doc should start discussing a taper.  MOST people feel little to NO symptoms when stepping down doses during the taper, it's when a person jumps off all together is when they may experience some w/d symptoms.  The goal should be to taper SLOWLY (over a period of several months) and taper down to the lowest dose possible.  That will minimize w/d symptoms from the sub.   A GOOD sub program should be no less than about 6 months, for the purpose of stabilizing between dosage adjustments, and to allow some progress in therapy.  A lot of people push the importance of a "short term sub program"...get on and get off, but like I said, in order for a sub program to be thorough, it takes a little time.

You sound like someone who has chronically relapsed.  You will have to discuss with the doc (down the line) what would be best for you, as far as the duration you're on the subs.  There ARE some people who have decided to stay on sub long term, at a very low maintenence dose.  Sometimes, when a person has ben in and out of rehab a bunch of times, and tried all kinds of methods to get clean, it's not unreasonable to at least consider a longer sub program.  That will be something you and the doc can decide down the line.

Keep in mind that sub is only just one TOOL in your recovery.  You still have to do all the other work, the aftercare, cutting your sources, staying vigilant, etc.  Sub is not a "cure", it's just ONE part of a recovery program.  Without aftercare, sub or no sub, you will again be vulnerable to relapse.

I just hope you found yourself a GOOD sub clinic.  There are cruddy ones out there that just hand the scripts out and that's about it.  That's pointless.  Those people might as still be using their DOC.  Those docs are just dealing drugs, legally.

Very best of luck to you, give this some time.  The sub should take the vast majority of your w./d symptoms away, but again, it's normal, while your body adjusts to the sub, to feel some aches and pains.  You should still be able to function, it shouldn't be severe.  If you're still having moderate to severe w/d symptoms in a few days, you definitely want to contact the sub doc.
26 Comments Post a Comment
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I hope this works for you Tavia. Stay on the Sub for as short a time as possible. That seems to be the current thought...

Let us know how you're doing!
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r u doing a short taper or a maintenace program? i have been on sub for 5 months and been going to therepy and group therepy it has changed my life. what r u taking and how much? anyway u chose to get sober is moving in the right direction. even tho sum folks dont agree with sub
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1742220_tn?1331360327
i don't know much about subs but I remember you.  i know you can do it!!! sending best wishes and encouragement.
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Thanks so much to both of you! It feels so good no matter what state I am in to come and read the love. I haven't taken anything since 10 yesterday morning and needless to say I am hurting!! Half ( ok 1/3)  of me wants to say just stick it out you have almost 24 hours under your belt the other part says you know where you will be in no time! I have researched so much on sub its coming out of my ears!!! And I have tried tapering I have tried methadone I have tried EVERYTHING . Rehab, therapy, docs cold turkey more times than I can count. I guess I just really don't care for myself! Very sad! Anyhootie off the pity pot!! I have never tried subs so here we go. The only thing that ***** is that you have to be in withdrawal to have it work. Well I'm there!! I sure hope this route works. pittbullmom please do tell I would love to hear any positives on sub since mostly I only hear the negative :)
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Thanks meegWpaw!! I need all the encouragement in the world!!

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1742220_tn?1331360327
:-)  you're sure welcome.
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3092482_tn?1412261602
Subs saved my life. You sound ready and have done your research, so do the full program. With subs, meetings, counseling, and determination, you will have a new life. The subs gave me a break from my compulsive addiction routine. I did a 20 day sub taper to get me off high dose methadone. I couldn't seem to kick it. Subs really opened my eyes to the world as it is. Yes you have to be in withdrawal, but in 30 min. after subs, I felt like a totally new person. I was wonderfully weird. Smells, the look of grass and trees, the breeze felt more real and I was present. Subs can be extremely positive for people at the end of their rope. Just do the deal. To me, the key is to only take enough to feel okay at first. I took too much and felt a little weird at first. I stabilized on 1/2 the dose my doctor suggested, luckily he was okay with that. I think most horror stories are caused by high doses and taking them longer than necessary, I don't know. The saying with sub is, less is more. It's weird for an opiate. I asked my Intro to Chemical Dependency teacher why taking less works better. He didn't know, but trial and error had proven it. Your worries will fade fast. Once you are on the subs, you can make decisions and organize your life. Good luck and try to relax.
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Avatar_f_tn
I remember you and am sending lots of encouragement.  Good luck with your appointment today.
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Good Morning, OK I went to the doc appointment yesterday and it was OK. I kinda felt like I was still at the drug pushers house :(. They sat in me in a room and asked me my life story from beginning to end. I thought I was gonna spend time with the doc but really spent most of it with the nurse. I was in heavy withdrawls and kept thinking/asking if I should just go and plummet through it! Of course there answer was absolutely not! So started the sub. They started me on 8mg/2mg 2X a day does anyone know what that means? Is that low or high. I will research as well but it seems high. When I asked them they of course said it was low. I only took a half and that was@ 4 pm yesterday and had a really hard time sleeping and still feel it in me. Geez! I could imagine taking what they prescribed. I must say the feeling is fine meaning I kinda just feel normal and not high!! Which is a great feeling!! They gave me huge packets to read and want to see me once a week. They only offer maintenance but what happens when I want off? I think I might have to research more docs. Ugh!! I want off people I want off all together!!! What have I done? Thanks for listening to me rant!! I shall be back..Love to everyone!!
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1579159_tn?1388706849
Hey girl, welcome back:-)  I am so sorry for what you are going through.  Sub is such a tricky med and controversial as well.  If you have the right dr and the right program it can really help, but some docs just give you the sub and take your money, so please just be careful and do your research.  I am nervous that you went there got the sub and you were so hesitant, and then you took less, so it leads me to believe that you are not sure subs is the way you want to go.  Don't get me wrong, we all will support you either way, just please do some more research on this drug, ok.   Did they tell you how long you will be on the sub?  Did they tell you when they are going to start a taper?  Please just be carful, and get all the facts, i wish you the best and i am so happy to see that you are taking charge and getting your life back:-)
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480448_tn?1403547723
Hey hon.

I wanted to give you some pointers.  I have some experience with subs, as I worked in a clinic for a while PT.

There is actually a formula the doc uses to come up with the induction dose.  What were you using?  How much?  That does seem a little on the high side, but without knowing what you're on, it's hard to say.

With subs, you MAY feel some very mild w/d symptoms for a few days to a week.  That's not because you're in active w/d, and that doesn't mean you should be taking more sub. Like weaver said, with sub, less is better.  Most people, even heavy users, can easily be maintained on a low dose.

The reason you may feel a little icky is because sub is a partial agonist, where an opiate is a full agonist.  Both hit the receptor, but with sub, it will take a few days for it to "fill" that receptor like your DOC did.  People tend to panic when they feel a little achey (achy), and think they have to take more.  To re-dose with sub (due to being symptomatic), due to its long half life, is usually pointless.  So, at the worst, you may feel some muscle aches.  Nothing that Motrin couldn't take care of.

I hope the clinic you found is a good one.  That makes all the difference in the world as to the success of sub treatment.  They should be providing, or referring you to a therapist of some sort, and you should be required to drug test, preferrably at every visit.  You should be required to come weekly for about 2 months, then down to bi-weekly.  They should also want to see you a day or two after your induction dose, to make sure the dose is correct.  Most likely, you'll end up needing less.  I saw heavy heroin users induced at 2mg 3x/day.

The idea behind sub is to let someone stabilize on their initial induction dose, and stay there for at least a few weeks, or a month.  Then, your doc should start discussing a taper.  MOST people feel little to NO symptoms when stepping down doses during the taper, it's when a person jumps off all together is when they may experience some w/d symptoms.  The goal should be to taper SLOWLY (over a period of several months) and taper down to the lowest dose possible.  That will minimize w/d symptoms from the sub.   A GOOD sub program should be no less than about 6 months, for the purpose of stabilizing between dosage adjustments, and to allow some progress in therapy.  A lot of people push the importance of a "short term sub program"...get on and get off, but like I said, in order for a sub program to be thorough, it takes a little time.

You sound like someone who has chronically relapsed.  You will have to discuss with the doc (down the line) what would be best for you, as far as the duration you're on the subs.  There ARE some people who have decided to stay on sub long term, at a very low maintenence dose.  Sometimes, when a person has ben in and out of rehab a bunch of times, and tried all kinds of methods to get clean, it's not unreasonable to at least consider a longer sub program.  That will be something you and the doc can decide down the line.

Keep in mind that sub is only just one TOOL in your recovery.  You still have to do all the other work, the aftercare, cutting your sources, staying vigilant, etc.  Sub is not a "cure", it's just ONE part of a recovery program.  Without aftercare, sub or no sub, you will again be vulnerable to relapse.

I just hope you found yourself a GOOD sub clinic.  There are cruddy ones out there that just hand the scripts out and that's about it.  That's pointless.  Those people might as still be using their DOC.  Those docs are just dealing drugs, legally.

Very best of luck to you, give this some time.  The sub should take the vast majority of your w./d symptoms away, but again, it's normal, while your body adjusts to the sub, to feel some aches and pains.  You should still be able to function, it shouldn't be severe.  If you're still having moderate to severe w/d symptoms in a few days, you definitely want to contact the sub doc.
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480448_tn?1403547723
I was going to say, too...calm down and relax.  You JUST started.  You don't have to be on subs forever.  If you don't think this is a good clinic (like I described)...find one that IS, so you're comfortable you are getting the right care...and a thorough program.

Sit down and read all the stuff they gave you, get out and do things, stay busy.  try not to sit around and ruminate about how you're feeling.  Try not to second guess yourself.

Just take it easy, don't overthink everything.  You took a step towards getting clean, and that's what is important.  Don't let the sub stigma scare you.  It isn't for everyone, but it HAS helped people.  The bottom line is YOU are the one who will be doing the work.  If you want this, you will do what it takes.  
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1235186_tn?1339127464
hi tavia,
i am so glad that you are back. i am so happy for you that you are trying again to get off the pills. i know how you have struggled.
hun, is your husband in the loop?
i know we have talked about this before.
i have thought about you so often.
keep the faith...
sending hope,support,encouragement,hugs,prayers
debbie
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Avatar_f_tn
Be very careful. those are addicting too. its a high standard dose. and you must. i repeat must. Must taper that medicine. they wernt ever made as a maintaimce drug that some doctors do..
.and some doctors even use this off topic as pain medicine.
And some people wished theyd never got on them

its a very contraversy drug. but thats my opinion.
have i used them yes....and loved them in the beginning only to fimd myself putting off another withdrawl (withdrawal)/detox.

Be very very cautious
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1742220_tn?1331360327
I was just rereading one of your posts and the part about how you don't care for yourself.  I realized I just read right over that before but I think it's significant.  We care about you, Tavia.  We will care about you until you can care about yourself.  ok.  :)
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480448_tn?1403547723
You can't say that her induction dose was high without knowing what she was on and how much.  Please don't scare the OP at this point, she's already vulnerable.

Must taper that medicine. they wernt ever made as a maintaimce drug that some doctors do..
That is not correct.  For some people Subs ARE used long term, as maintenence, and there were never any "rules" that they couldn't be used that way.

and some doctors even use this off topic as pain medicine.
You mean "off label"?  I'm sure they do, as they are an opiate.  That has nothing to do with the OP and her situation at all.

And some people wished theyd never got on them
You're absolutely right.  And, a lot of people thanked GOD they went that route.

have i used them yes....and loved them in the beginning only to fimd myself putting off another withdrawl (withdrawal)/detox.
To have that mindset (to put off detox/w/d) WILL lead to failure, that's not what Subs should be used for.


It's THESE kinds of posts that give Sub a bad name...a bunch of generalizations AND incorrect info thrown together in a fashion that would scare anyone who was new to it, or didn't know a lot about it.  It's one thing to have an opinion, it's another to just throw things out there.  I don't think it's fair.
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Its best to be well informed. it is a scsrey decision. the whole thing is scarey. when you cant control a disease or a substance thats scarey.

I seen as much damage from subs as i have regular pain pills. ie loratabs etc.

If subs will keep an addict off the streets and level out the addicts life....well go for it. but go in eyes wide open...

I took subs. i wished i never ever had. the medicine hurt my head in a weird weird way. then i was hooked on them. another detox. another week down in bed.

There isnt a majic pill for addiction.

i think as addicts we all look to a pill to make us all better.

When we need to look inside of ourselves to see if we are ready to jump.

but........it is absolutely your decision at the end of the day. i dont live inside your head to see what ypur thinking or feeling...

Just know your working to better yourself is key.

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480448_tn?1403547723
Of course there is no magic pill for addiction, no one should look at subs as a cure or magic pill.

I don't disagree with you that Subs have caused issues for people, and that some people have traded one addiction for another.  Like I have said before, a LOT of the success of subs depends on the quality of the sub program.

My issue is the generalizing about subs, and presenting info in a very "fear mongering" kind of way, which is what I think you did in your last post.

I respect your position about subs, just remember, like you said above, it's THEIR decision at the end of the day, it's one thing to share an opinion, or advise someone to be cautious, or do their research.  It's another thing to paint with a broad brush about something that HAS indeed helped people as being nothing but bad.  That's YOUR opinion.  The sub debate is never going to go away...it's a heated one for sure.  

With all due respect of course.
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Avatar_f_tn
imo u did ur homework ur are obviously a chronic relasper so sub was made for people like u and me. ur not out buying pills. it stops all the drug seeking behavor and its much safer then taking an extremely high dose of pills. there is also a ceiling effect so theres no point taking more then ur priscribed (prescribed) dose. u dont have to abuse these. sum people might not consider me clean but i do. im not out buying pills with my rent money . i get to spend it on my daughter instead . how great is that?  my dr will tell me when he thinks its time to stop and he will support me. he is also an addict. so he gets it. all sub drs should b like him. we also hav group 2x a month with all his patients
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honestly i would b more scared of taking 10 perc 30s then 2 sub strips a day
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Wow!~Thanks Everyone! Ha who needs the presidential debate when we have the sub debate..Just kidding but in all seriousness thanks so much nursegirl for your information. I have spent ALL day reading and the re-reading your post. The bottom line is I want off of everything but how many times I have tried this over and over again is almost unaccountable. So I do think finding the right doctore will make a world of difference and I just don't think this one is it :( . In all honestly it scared me that he doesn't want you to ever come off them??? It's only day 2 for me so I know it will take a sec for me to adjust. I do have a screaming headache but diod take some motrin which seems to help quickly but I will say this when I was starting my withdrawl (withdrawal) to get on the subs as bad as it was I still felt "clearer" in my head than I do know or when on Norco. Does that make sense? will my body adjust to my dosage of sub and I'll start to feel clearer? Pittbullmom did this happen to you? Thanks everyone. I love you all ..for real! Thank you ..you are my life savers!!!
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yes it happened it took about a week for me to feel the way i used to b4 pills.
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if u hav ?s feel free to pm me:)
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Will do..when I get to work :) Thank you soooooooo much for your support !!!
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480448_tn?1403547723
Yes, you will adjust.  You SHOULD feel clear, you shouldn't feel like you did on the Norco.  Like I said, it can take up to a week until you've stabilized on that induction dose.  Headaches, some muscles aches, totally normal.  Taking Motrin, or Tylenol, whatever you prefer (OTC) should be sufficient.

I think you've got your head in the right place here, you have chosen to go the sub route, which, I think in your case is reasonable, with multiple failed attempts at getting clean, and you realize that this particular sub doc just may not "cut it".  What you need to do is just stay with this doc while you look for another clinic, this way, you'll stay on the sub and at least not have to start over with the w/d's and the induction.

Look around, and when you call clinics, looko for the things l mentioned in my other post.  You may have to go a little farther from home to find a good clinic, but it will be worth it, to do this "right".

Try not to second guess your decision too much.  The important thing to focus on is you're making changes to get well.  Good luck!  I'm anxious to watch your progress!
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Avatar_f_tn
here is the sub here to help hotline # they helped me find my dr 888-898-4818 they r very nice and will give u a few #s good luck . as far as helping goes ur very welcome thats why we r here
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