Withdrawel

[Broken Bones]

Hell-o, Life is a living hell,years of bad injuries, had to take Lortab,ect. It was so bad I made the mistake of getting on Methadone. Traded one nightmare for one that was much worse. I've gotten off methadone and went right back to Lortab 10/650, about 25 a day.I cut back to 14 a day and really want out of this nightmare but it seems the more times you quit, the harder it gets each time and cold turkey is not an option. A bullet would be better.The lower I get, the harder it is.IF I ever get off, the pain from injuries makes life unbearable. Anyone know if there is any way out? Can't take much more.I almost died from the cold turkey method.Also out of money, job, ect. Also, I wanted to say thanks, BEFORE I CRAWL OUT OF MY SKIN...Broken Bones

[earthgirl]

This is my 75th hour off loritab, it has not been easy at all and i am jonesing right now it is so hard to live drug free. I need some support to keep from hurting myself.

[Witchywoman]

Broken, if you have strong pain, you may need to take the pain meds, and just work on not abusing them. Have you discussed pain management options with your doctor?

earthgirl...your post worried me. Hang in there...the first 3 or 4 days of withdrawal are the hardest, you are almost there!! Post more..tell us what you are going through. It helps. And if you are seriously thinking of hurting yourself..PLEASE tell someone, or go to the ER, talk to someone, as soon as possible.

WW

[PHILLYCHAD]

Stop trying to do this by yourself! Go into a detox facility tonight! Right now!, Go!.......why are you still reading this? Go, Go, Go.........Did I mention that you should GO?

This stuff is no joke. Please guys, get some help from a detox center. It will change your life. Sometimes we have to admit that we are not strong enough to do it by ourselves. Chad

[skipper]

hey people:
just wanted to let you know, there is a way thru! i've gone thru
a lot of the same stuff that both of you are feeling right now.
i also agree with Phillychad, you don't have to go thru this stuff
alone! the fact that both of you posted says that you want alter-
natives to the dead end you've found your selves in. please listen
to chad and get your selves into detox or a 72 hour suicide watch!

there are even worse places than here you are now, dead is one of
them. please don't try to do this by yourself anymore!

keep an angel on your shoulder!
kip

[katie r]

Broken and Earthgirl.......I know what you are going through. Actually, everyone here knows. We are all at some point of addiction. It's a living hell. Listen to the advice of these great people. They've all been there. I'm there now.  I'm in no place to give advice....I'm still seeking it myself. But I can offer sympathy. Hang in there and keep posting. It does help to know you're not alone.

[Dreaming87]

Hello out there.  I have posted before & been reading this forum for about a year.  I myself am in an addiction hell, only I have went from the hydros to the oxy's and talk about withdrawal----One day and my legs and body hurt so much I wish I were dead, the shakes and shivers and sweating etc make it hard to even function.  I REALLY want to be free from these pills!!!  Any help is appreciated.  C.

[susanlea]

Has anyone heard from Jenny?  I haven't seen her post for a couple of day's and I am worried.  Thanks a bunch guys....Susan

[Bijou]

Please don't try to detox by yourself! It's very dangerous.
I know this might sound Hollywood,butyoga has really helped my pain,infact if I go a couple of days without doing it,the pain comes back.So maybe you could look into that when your feeling better. Good Luck,Love,Bijou....

[mickytim]

In the last few days I've been selfish about focusing on my problems, and then I read what I came to this post for, once again people in TRUE PAIN! Wether it be in the heart or in the body.

Broken, Earthgirl, Dream87, we are all with you.

Broken I so agree with Phillyclad, Go to the detox center, But checkout how they detox you first.  Make sure it's not meth, Or find a new one if you don't want that hell.  One that deals with let's say darvon, you get tappered off of. Again we also know the phy's pain to, maybe other suggestion will help from pain mgmt doc.

Earthgirl, Please, Please don't feel alone enough to do something that drastic, Please.  We are all feeling you at this time.  Just like katie say's The people here can help with an ear or some advice and they really are special! Don't feel alone.  They just helped me out of a bad week by just listing to me and being there, even though I don't know them, they know me, because we all have this bond that ties us, weather it's pain or addiction or depression, we share a common bond that even your best friend may not understand.  And the best part is that these beutiful people don't mind being used for something, and that's nonjudgemental compassion.  Please don't feel alone, keep yourself busy, start typing it will take your mind off of things.

dream87, we are proud of your great start.  Your almost through the 2nd step, the 1st was your deccsion to stop.  Stay strong read some of other posts you might find some suggestion that will help with the withdrawls.

My heart is with you all, strength to you !!!

peace

mickytim

[Durty]

Just another vote of confidence to hang in there and PLEASE don't be affraid to get HELP.  Look in the phone book, many detox places also have 800#'s you can call to just talk to someone confidentially.  Call. Talk. Open up, get it out.
Durty

[Kristen]

I'm so sorry you guys are in so much pain....I've been there and its hell.....if you want to talk on AOL IM you can message me at cnjsmom1111 and maybe talking through some stuff will help....life is definately better on the other side and anyone that wants it bad enough can do it....you came to the right place, this forum.  I have had the greatest love and support from these guys on here....just get everything off your chest and we'll all be here for ya.....we've all been through hell too.


WW, how are you doing girl?  I've been thinking about you and wondering how your doing.  My boyfriend broke up with me over e-mail last week, so I've been grieving ALOT, wanting to "NUMB" ....is there any way we can talk through regular email?  If so, send me something at ***@****  Thanks for all your support...hope your on top of the world!!!!

Hang in there everyone and thanks for being here.....love, kristen

[earthgirl]

Everyone thank you for your support. I made it through lat night by readind step 1 and 2 in the NA BOOK THE DEPRESSION IS THE WORST. bEING BI-POLAR AND ON lITHIUM AND ZOLFOT AND rEMERON, i KNOW i HAVE TO GIVE IT TIME.  i PROMISE TO MY FELLOW ADDDICTS i WILL NOT HARM MYSELF TODAY.  i SO APPRECIATE YOUR COMPASSION.

[earthgirl]

I HEAR YOU AND KNOW THAT YOU CARE. THANK YOU FOR SHARING YOUR EXPERIENCE AND HOPE WITH ME.  iS THERE ANYTHING ELSE I COULD BE DOING TO HELP MYSELF?  i STOPPED TAKING THE ATIVAN, IS IT TO SOON FOR THAT?

[Francoise]

Man, I know just where you're at. I have severe injuries; back, pelvis, femur, ankle, wrist, arms, and I'm on a maintenance dose of oxycontin (100 mg twice a day). For a long time I beat myself up because of being on an opiate. Why? Because the War on Drugs and incultration said so, that's why. No good reason. I really needed the drug in order to live pain free.

Finally, it occured to me that damnit, If I was going to have any kind of life, I had to have the drugs. The trick was not abusing them. So I didn't. Wasn't easy at first, but over time it became easier and easier. Now I'm on a stable dose, I don't fool around with taking any more than is prescribed and I'm in good shape. I get to have a life relatively free from pain, can got to work and perform like I need to, go fishing on the weekend, and in general have a normal life.

So I gave up trying to get off the drug; accepted that I was one of millions who required it to have a life; accepted that in the War on Drugs, I was not one of the enemy. I'm one of the guys that the medical profession wants to help have a life as long as I'm not playing games always trying to get more drugs just for kicks (I dropped them in the sink; I dropped them overboard; the dog at them; martians landed in my back yard and stole my prescription; the druggist's assistant ate my entire prescription, etc., etc.) I show up on schedule, get my script, take it as prescribed, go about my business having a life. You can do it too.

What you CAN'T do is detox from opiods based on your own solitary will power. Can't be done. And even if you could do it, what would you do about the pain? Endure it until you descended into a chronic pain depression and then seek treatment for that?

WHY BOTHER? Those drugs are there for you use when they're the only way you can have a reasonable expectation of leading a normal life. Go for it. A hundred years ago, you'd just be left for dead. Now you've got a chance for life. Take it.

All this in my humble opinion, of course.

Francois

[Broken Bones]

From broken bones, Wow I couldn't believe how many people responded from yesterday post. I feel too bad to write much, pain and withdrawl. I am still cutting down, slowly. It REALLY helped just knowing people listen.One detox center wanted 28 thousand dollars, and it would still be cold turkey, hell I could get a brain transplant for that much. I would need one if I was stupid enough to pay that much for cold turkey method........But talking to you guys really has helped. If I feel good enough later today, I would really like to write to KRISTEN, I think she is having some of the same problems that I am.....Not just the drugs.....Anyway, thanks again (everyone)I feel a little better reading your letters....GOT to go (to see if I can break another bone! Ciao BROKEN BONES

[Kristen]

hey....its Kristen.....I'm here...send me an email if ya want to to ***@****

I know what your going through....detoxing sucks so bad....but hang in there, it gets better....let me know whats up and maybe I can encourage ya.....love ya...kristen

[Witchywoman]

Hi everyone,
I'm having a hard day! My back pain is really bad today, hubby went to a barbeque with our friends that I wanted to go to, but am in too much pain to go along.  And, at the same time, the mental cravings to use are hitting me today..the addiction demon is beckoning. So I logged on to get support from the Forum, and lo and behold, I feel much better and got the strength to ignore the demon. I am also re reading my journals from the withdrawal week, and remembering the hell..rereading the parts where I wrote to myself, saying "read this again when you are tempted to try to use just a little, and remember how it sucked your soul away from you".

I knew this part would come. Some of you might wonder why I choose to not use the meds since I do have high pain. I would never tell anyone with pain to do what I've done, but I tried to use appropriately and failed, repeatedly, and I think that the pain I have is not nearly as high as some of the other folks in our Forum Family with chronic pain, like Skipper, Angelica, Francois..and forgive me if I am forgetting anyone...Cindi you have chronic pain too if I"m not mistaken?

Broken, and earthgirl..I do hope you've made it ok through the weekend, and hope you've gotten the help and support you deserve and need!

My heart and hope is with all of you, and I thank you for being here to get me through my first "craving" day.  

love,
WW

[Witchywoman]

Hi earthgirl..I don't know about the ativan..how much were you on? I do know that it is important to taper off ativan, it can be very dangerous to go off it cold turkey.  I think you are being very hard on yourself if you try to go off opiates as well as the ativan all at once!

How are you doing today?

love,
WW

[katie r]

ok folks. This morning I took my last 5 lortabs. (yes all at once.I thought of spacing them out but decided to swallow them all) That was at 8:00am...now it's almost 6:00pm. I'm clammy. I'm cranky. I have no energy. Oh boy. Here we go again. Guess it's time for the "cold turkey recipe." I don't have any valium yet but I did get some "kava kava root" and will try that and hope I can sleep thru some of this. I already dread waking up tomorrow morning. Waking up and knowing I have no lortabs to get me thru the day is a depressing thought. Guess I'll keep checking back here for moral support. By the way....why is it so hard to post a new comment? Grrrrrrrrrr. Guess I'll go dig in the bottom of my purse.....ya never know! I've found 1 or 2 pills there before! Wish me luck, ya'll. It's gonna be a long night.

[Witchywoman]

oh Katie...my thoughts are with you...and I'm sending you TONS of healing energy and strength. I am still off work, lying down with my laptop, and am able to be online a lot, so please feel free to email me..***@****  

Anything I can do to help you get through this, I'll do.  

I remember when my first day of withdrawals, one of the hardest parts was not knowing what to expect..the dread of "how bad is this really going to get"?   Have you gotten some brand name Immodium AD?  That will help a lot when the diarhea (diarrhea) hits.  

Stay glued to us..and please know you are not alone.

You can do this!

love,
WW

[mickytim]

This is a tough weekend for all, it is the last weekend before the weather turns colder and those of us chronic pain people will be scambling by November to find a solution like that 1 pill that will heal us all, that doesn't exist.

I to am feeling this pain and the pain that I can't take just 1 pill, but have to take them all If I have them.

WW, standing next to me is my x who is trying to tell me that this was a problem that could have been controled If I was a strong person, or we were strong enough people, see the difference in why I talk to all of you.  Sometime its so hard to deal with the people who just can't seem to understand what true pain or addiction is, without insulting us.  

It's funny cause I don't wish this on my worst enemy.  Stay strong tommorow, all the positve thoughts in the world to you, from us.

Broken, earthgirl, katie, and kristen, We could'nt be with you in person, but we are dam sure with you in spirt.  Like the football song says fight, fight, fight, and just know we are here, and have been there, It is a tough battle on all fronts I will survive even though as you see from my x, I'm not a strong person.  Guess that why she's my x.  

Sending you all, energy and strength to get through today and everyday!

Peace

mickytim

[Kristen]

Well I went 27 days, messed up and took some pills....but i stopped..I DO NOT want to go through that detox EVER again....I'm in so much emotional pain....My boyfriend broke upwith me and hasn't called in 5 days....I called once, but he never returned it....I feel so alone and hate life...I took about 20 lortabs within a 3 day period....and dont have any more, and have no desire to get more....they actually didn't even do anything for me except make me sick to my stomach...

Thanks for being here everyone....

[Witchywoman]

Hey there Kristen,
It is so good that you told us about your relapse, rather than keeping it to yourself. That is the best thing to do...let it out, and keep working on taming the Dragon, as Wiz would say. Trying to stay clean is hard enough when life is going smoothly, I'm sure it is harder still when you are dealing with the pain of a bad relationship.

I hope you don't mind if I'm a bit blunt here..but from what you have written to us about your boyfriend, it doesn't sound like this relationship is one that is really healthy and good for you. He's broken up with you at least one, or two other time recently, if I remember your past posts correctly, and it has never sounded like he truly supports living a life of recovery and health.  I know it is easy to say this from my perspective, and a lot harder to live through..believe me..I do know.  But I hear such a striving for freedom and I see such a strength in you..I think you deserve better than how he's been treating you.

Hang in there Kristen..we are here for you, and I just want to thank you for your honestly.

love,
WW

[susanlea]

Are you ok?  Please take care of yourself.  I know not having your boyfriend for love and support hurts.  Was he addicted to pain meds or any other drug?  Why did he leave?  Be strong and pray.  Stay on the forum for support.  Get your head and body cleaned of the meds and then think about him.  I survived a boyfriend of 6 years who was addicted to oxy's and methadone, he went into detox, came out and relapsed very long story.  My kids and I put up with verbal and emotional abuse from him.  He lied, stole my meds, withdrew from us and punished us.  I don't know how your boyfriend treated you, but if he knows what you are going through and is not there to support you and care for you he sounds alot like my ex.  In a few months you will see how much better off you are without him.  If he hurt you and it makes you want to take pills to numb the pain there is something wrong here.  Everyone here will be there for you.  Look into your soul and get yourself to an AA or NA meeting.  You need a sponser, someone you can call and see to be there with you.  It's hard enough to go through the withdrawals cold turkey.  It would be ideal if you could go into a detox center, but I realize this isn't always possible.   I go to Al-anon and now I sponser others.  I am involved with a program for recovering addicts and some have told me that when they were having bad withdrawals they would watch some religous channels.  They said it took their mind of their pain because of all the positive energy.  Take care of yourself, make sure you drink plenty of Gatorade and eat if you can.  Nourishment will help ease the withdrawals and their symptoms.  Everyone knows if you eat alot it makes it easier to sleep.  Take care my friend and I am here.....God bless you.....Susan

[earthgirl]

IT IS MONDAY A.M. 3:OO AND I CAN'T SLEEP. I THOUGHT I WOULD CHECKIN AND TELL YOU THAT IT IS DAY 5.  i WAS OONLY USING THE ATIVAN A FEW TIMES A DAY ALONG WITH A VALIUM IF I HAD ONE FOR DETOX.  IT FEELS LIKE IT IS GONNA BE A LONG DAY.. THE GOOD THING I WANTED TO PASS ON IS THAT I HAD A FRIEND OF MINE WEAN ME QUIICKLY FROM 20  PILLS TO 6, 5, 4, 2. THAT SEEMED TO BE EASIER ON MY BODY THEN IT HAS IN THE PAST.  i KNOW THAT WITHOUT YOUR LIFELINE HERE AND MY FRIEND I COULD NOT HAVE MADE IT.  BLESSING TO ALL OF YOU FOR A SAFE DAY. LOVE, ME

[mickytim]

We all here are with you, I know even though we don't know each other personally, but I know your feelings at this time as a human being.

You are strong enough to want something so bad, you fight it, and fight it, with everything you have, and then you feel that need for love or affection, or maybe that someone to hold you and say it's ok and everything will be allright. This is us as human!

My daughters name is Kristin, I didn't tell you that, but one of the things my x and I as parents try and stress in her is that she doesn't need a man to help here control her life, He's only there for companionship, love, support, laughs and to help support what you want for the future( Yes there are other things to)Not to take away what you want to accomplish. If he gets in the way instead of helping you find the way, toss him fast.

I learned from my youth the many of my mistakes were for attention, instead of the old backhand across the face I just wanted a held and for someone to tell me everything will be allright.

As one humbled, father and human, Kristen its going to be allright,( BIG HUG AND LOTS OF LOVE FROM YOUR FRIENDS HERE ON THIS LINE ), We see the power in you to not want meds anymore, We also see the power in you to not need that person who brings you down anymore.  There are many more fish in the sea!

Living and breathing are wonderful, it's the path of life that sucks sometime, We all make our path and we all can change our path. And yes as humans we fail, maybe more than once ( my hand is up )but that doesn't make us bad people, and please don't let it stop you from living your path.

Thoughts of strength to you today

Peace

mickytim

[Thomas]

It sounds like you're in the classic vice: you have chronic pain for which you need narcotic painkillers but you're also addicted to your source of pain relief and can't stick to a strictly therapeutic dose. I was in the same situation when I blew a disk out in my back. My orthopedic surgeon couldn't understand why I needed so many vic es'. What he didn't know was that I was getting them from two other doctors AND and I was calling in my own scripts at the same time -- that's how bad my habit was. I can tell you this: after you've detoxed from the vics (or Lortabs, same thing), if you can stick to a normal dose of the stuff, you will get relatively normal pain relief from them. I know it's hard to believe, but it's true. The greatest challenge is sticking to that prescribed dose. After detoxing, you'll want to "reward" yourself by taking a big dose "just this once." Of course, once you do this, you're right back in the **** again and might as well have never detoxed at all.

For what it's worth, I'm going to re-print my cold turkey detox recipe for Lortabs (yes, with the right combo of drugs and non-drug therapies, you can detox yourself from this drug). I know, because I developed this formula in order to detox myself from a seventy-five (yes, 75) vicodin per day habit. So, here it is. If you're going to do it, follow it to the letter or it won't work. The one rx drug you'll need to make it really work is some kind of benzo like valium, klonopin, librium, xanax, ativan, etc. So, if you have any relatives that can help you out with one of these drugs (or a doctor, of course) the benzos wll help make the results much more successful ... but if you can't, the recipe can still work ...

Here's my tried-and-true do-it-yourself "cold turkey" detox protocol.

Supplies you'll need first:

As many Valium, Xanax, Librium, Ativan or Klonopin as you can get your hands on.

--- first day off the opiate, use enough Valium or whatever, to, if possible, sleep through most of the first couple days. Then start decreasing the dose until you're down to nothing in about 5 or 6 days. You'll have to do the math. The Valium or one of its sister drugs will help tremendously with the anxiety and, somewhat, with the body aches. Valium may make you eat like a pig and, when withdrawing from narcotics, one usually craves sweets, so I'd be ready to indulge myself with lots of treats, along with some good escapist movies to take your mind off of evrything. That always worked for me.

VERY IMPORTAT: Around-the-clock access to either hot baths or a Jacuzzi.

--speaking of those goddamn thigh cramps that seem to love to show up in the middle of the night, have that hot bath or Jacuzzi at the ready. Don't hesitate to spend the majority of the week in that hot water if that's what it takes to get you through it. You may be wrinkled, but you'll have your sanity. Don't underestimate what the hot baths can do to relieve the withdrawal discomfort. They really, really work. Heating pads between the thighs can help with those cramps, too, but not nearly as much as the hot baths.

Brand-name-only Imodium (immodium) (over the counter at the supermarket. Don't ak me why, but the brand name just works better.)

-- if you're a normal Lortab/Vicodin addict, you'll be getting the runs by no later than the second or third day off the lortab. In my experience, it's an especially unpleasant variety. At the first impulse, take two or three Imodium (immodium) and respond to returning urges with two tabs. It's important that you do it at the slightest rumbling from your guts. Immodium is also an opioid class drug and, even though it's action is mostly confined to that part of the brain that affects bowel motility, I noticed a slight relief from the overall withdrawal feeling when I took the Imodium (immodium) -- just don't overdose on the stuff thinking it will relieve all the withdrawal symptoms - it won't - it will just constipate the hell out of you at very high doses. Stick to the dosages I recommended.


Now, this is very important to short- and long-term reovery - I can't emphasize this one enough:
L-Tyrosine [NOT L-Lysine] (qty 50 of the 500mg caps) - an amino acid freely available at the health food store. Costs about 12 bucks a bottle.

WHY?
Chronic use of narcotics depletes the brain of several critical neurotransmitters responsible for well-being and mental performance and attitude.
Plus:
Bottle of 100 mg B6 caps (the B6 helps the L-Tyrosine be absorbed)
Plus, high-potency magnesium and zinc suplements. You may have to buy each in separate pills.

My experience detoxing with L-Tyrosine says take 4000 (four thousand) mg. (8x500mg caps of L-Tyrosine) with two 100mg B6 caps along with your zinc/magnesium supplement every day for your "detox week" to provide your brain with the raw material it needs to replenish its stores of these neurotransmitters. Many feel the difference on the very first dose. (I did, big time!!) ***Take it on an empty stomach, either first thing in the morning or at bedtime. You can continue this regimen after the first week if it continues to make you feel good. I continue to use L-Tyrosine every other day with very few exceptions, although now I cut my dose to 1500 mg of L-Tyrosine. I cut down on the dosage beause it can cause the runs at high doses. But for your first week, you need the high dose of L-Tyrosine and should just put up with the runs. It only happens once after each dose (if it happens at all) and it's not the "buring runs" that you get from withdrawal. It also happens within the first hour and won't return, so it's something you can plan on. Also, the Imodium (immodium) justight cancel out the runs, anyway. So, it's livable at least for that first week. Besides, the L-Tyrosine will make you feel so damn good so quickly, you won't care! You'll be looking forward to your morning L-Tyrosine dose, believe me! L-Tyrosine will make you feel alert without being nervous, peaceful without feeling sedated, and just generally GOOD, despite the withdrawal. It's truly THE discovery of opiate withdrawal therapy.

Multi-vitamins (most junkies don't eat too well, so this one's just for good sense).

Acording to some literature, you also need to add copper, phosphorus and Vitamin C to fully complete the dopamine, norepinephrine converson. You might have to do some hunting at the health food store to find the right vitamin or vitamins to supply all this stuff. Health food stores generally care multis that, instead of carrying every vitamin known to an, carry instead all the "metals" we need such as copper, Magnesium, zince, phosporous,etc. I esily found a multiple that contained large doses of zince, magnesium, copper, vitmamin C and lots of other things for very little money. In any event, I got a VERY good result from just the L-Tyrosine and B6 alone. Don't let any difficulty finding the whole laundy list of minerals and metals stop you fro using the L-Tyrosine and B6 -- it works like gangbusters anyway!

By the way, the zinc and magnesium tip was supplied by a contributor to this site called "pillpoppa" who cliamed it was the magic formula for recovering from long-term methadone use, so it sounds like an important part of the fromula for you in particular. Even though I never used methadone, I was using this multiple with large doses of zinc and magnesium (without realizing it) and, at first, I couldn't figure out why I felt so good so quickly after stopping the Lortabs. The I realized I was getting all that zinc and mag with my multiple! Pillpoppa's formula really does work, my friend. So, don't skip any of the instructions I've given you here. Add it up, and it doesn't cost as much as a visit to the doc for a big fat Lortab rx! Remember: all the details of my recipe are necessary to complete recovery. Then, just will yourself to stick as close to the prescribed dose as you can for your pain and, hopefully, you're home free!

WARNING: Avoid L-Tyrosine if you're on an SSRI (serotonin reuptake inhibitor) such as Prozac, Effexor, Paxil, all those kinds of psychiatric mood elevators, etc.

If you have any questions or just want to talk today, I'm enjoying a rare chance to use my PC all day today and will answer you as fast as I can. Remember, despite what the goaddamn doc might like you to believe, you haven't done anything wrong. You're a normal, decent human being who's fallen into the trap these modern medications have set for us all. You're not alone, Broken, and will never be alone as long as you come to this site. Believe me, we've ALL been where your at. We understand you and accept you and will support you through your trials. Lean on us if it helps. That's what we're here for.


Your friend,

Thomas

[Thomas]

hi chad, hope all is well with you ... I agree that in-house rehab is great, but surely you must realize that this is not an option for many of us. Many do not have insurance to cover it and others, like me, would return from the rehab to discover someone else in my job. So, hey great, I'd be drug free but unemployed at a time when tech writers simply can't get jobs. My family and I could celebrate my sobriety while we lived out of my car in the back of a Wal-Mart parking lot. Not a very practical trade, if you ask me. Just a suggestion, but try to keep that in mind when you offer you unquestionably well-meaning advice.

Your friend as always,

Thomas

[Kristen]

Thanks everyone for your nice comments and caring so much....I wish so bad my man would be here to just wrap his arms around me and tell me everything's going to be OK....what makes me so mad is that he IS a good guy, doesn't abuse drugs, is a great father, but he just didn't have time for ME and MY problems.  His schedule is so hectic because he coaches football and is a divorced father.....so all of his time is at school and with his son...so if I am to have any ups and downs, he cant have that disrupting his life...he say's he just cant trust me....sure does make me feel like a piece of ****...I mean, I'm a very loving, good person....pretty much have my **** together, except for the pills.....but I have full custody of my 2 young boys, pay my mortgage and bills on time, am an all over pretty decent person, but he just cant get past my addiction.....I just dont know why I feel so alone right now....I'm VERY depressed and lonely....I'm not having any withdrawals or anything from the pills I took....dont think I took enough to get my body used to them.....but thanks everyone for being here and supporting me.....kristen

[Durty]

I'm 10 days into my tapper down and so far have been sticking with it.  Down from 12/7.5 to 4/7.5 a day.  Tomorrow start 3 a day for 4 days.  Been getting some sleep but not "good" sleep. Usually wake up and feel like ****.  Is it normal to have extreme shakes? Last nite my whole upper right side kind of went
beserk and shook for about 5 seconds. I'm mean really shook - like bouncing all over. Anyone else ave that happen?  
Figure all part of the process but sure wasn't fun. Other than that, feeling a little down, deppressed, and bored but happy to almost be done!  

Thanks all - durty

[Witchywoman]

Hi Thomas..thanks for the revised version of your detox recipe..I just copied it and stored in, though I pray that I'll never again need it.

I wish that I could just stick to the recommended pain med dosage, but I have proven over and over that I can not. Also, even if I could, my recommended dosage is 2 every four hours, and that would get me physically addicted again in no time.  I so wish there were a non addictive pain killer that really worked. The person who ever discovers or invents one is going to make millions! LOL

One question for you...how long post detox does the diarhea (diarrhea) tend to last? I did a very fast taper in 5 days, and have been hydrocodone free for over a week, and *still* have diarhea (diarrhea). Is this normal?

Thanks Thomas, for being such a voice of sanity and acceptance. You have no idea how much you've helped me in the past few months, just by your posts. You rock!  :-)

WW

[Witchywoman]

I never had the shaking happen to me in my withdrawal, but I think I've read that this does happen. You should probably talk to a doctor though, to be sure that what happened to you is not a sign of something more serious.

Keep your eyes on the prize..freedom!

WW

[constant cycle]

Why do I keep doing this to myself?  It all started innocently enough back in the mid 80's when I got hurt at work and was prescribed Vicodin for the pain.  Being on workman's comp the doctor, therapist and pharmacy were more than happy to keep me supplied with plenty of Vicodin long after I really needed to take them.  I had no idea that "addiction" meant that the body physically craves the narcotic and all the will power in the world will do you no good.  I found out the hard way that codeine is PHYSICALLY addicting and your body "needs" it or you get really sick and suffer terrible withdrawal.  Since that time, I have been injured a number of times and been prescribed codeine for the pain.  Of course, I soon found out that I loved the euphoric feeling it gave me and the fact that it seemed to give me energy.  Since the mid 80's I have been actively addicted most of the time.  I have been through withdrawals so many times that I cannot even remember the number.  Of course, each time I swear to myself that I will never ever touch the damn stuff again and then something happens.  It could be a stressful situation or pain from some of my old injuries but next thing I know I am doing the "doctor circuit" going from doc to doc and eating more and more codeine every day.  I finally got up to taking 15-20 Lortab 10/500's a day and a script of 100 sure doesn't last very long.  Now that I am just about totally broke I know that I cannot keep it up and in fact I was tapering off slowly but still suffering from symptoms.  I made it down to taking only six tabs per day.  This being a holiday weekend I knew that I did not have enough to get through till I could see the doc again.  In a total panic, I kept calling the doctor and he finally gave me 40 to last until Tuesday (tomorrow) when I have an appointment with him.  Of course, having that many pills let me "reward myself" for being so good at getting down to six per day.  I know now that I will just have to start this whole process all over again.  Why do I keep doing this to myself?  I know that I am prolonging my suffering but I have already taken nine today and it is all I can do to keep from taking another handful.  Yeah, right now I "feel" pretty good but I will be paying a very high price in more ways than one before this week is out.  For twelve long years I have been doing this to myself and living a lie.  Only one other person knows (my brother) and he is in even worse shape than I am with the painkillers.  Right now we are both in the same boat and thank God that I have him to talk to.  NO ONE that has not been through this can POSSIBLY understand just how bad this is.  Most of the time I don't even want to live.  I look in the mirror and hate myself for being so weak.  I just want to give up.  There is no way that I can keep on living like this.

[Witchywoman]

Hi...you've come to the right place.  If you've read through our posts, you may have already realized that here you won't be judged and you will be helped as much as possible.

I think that all of us here know the hell that you are going through, and have felt the shame, guilt, exasperation that you are feeling.  Try to not think of yourself as worthless and hopeless though...as Thomas said in a recent post to someone else, you are a decent human being who got caught in a trap that these modern painkillers create for millions of people. There is always hope, and always help.

I wish I could take away your pain and despair, but all I can do is welcome you to the forum, and extend my hand to yours across the ethers, one addict to another.

Welcome and I hope you keep posting.

love,
WW

[constant cycle]

Why do I keep doing this to myself?  It all started innocently enough back in the mid 80's when I got hurt at work and was prescribed Vicodin for the pain.  Being on workman's comp the doctor, therapist and pharmacy were more than happy to keep me supplied with plenty of Vicodin long after I really needed to take them.  I had no idea that "addiction" meant that the body physically craves the narcotic and all the will power in the world will do you no good.  I found out the hard way that codeine is PHYSICALLY addicting and your body "needs" it or you get really sick and suffer terrible withdrawal.  Since that time, I have been injured a number of times and been prescribed codeine for the pain.  Of course, I soon found out that I loved the euphoric feeling it gave me and the fact that it seemed to give me energy.  Since the mid 80's I have been actively addicted most of the time.  I have been through withdrawals so many times that I cannot even remember the number.  Of course, each time I swear to myself that I will never ever touch the damn stuff again and then something happens.  It could be a stressful situation or pain from some of my old injuries but next thing I know I am doing the "doctor circuit" going from doc to doc and eating more and more codeine every day.  I finally got up to taking 15-20 Lortab 10/500's a day and a script of 100 sure doesn't last very long.  Now that I am just about totally broke I know that I cannot keep it up and in fact I was tapering off slowly but still suffering from symptoms.  I made it down to taking only six tabs per day.  This being a holiday weekend I knew that I did not have enough to get through till I could see the doc again.  In a total panic, I kept calling the doctor and he finally gave me 40 to last until Tuesday (tomorrow) when I have an appointment with him.  Of course, having that many pills let me "reward myself" for being so good at getting down to six per day.  I know now that I will just have to start this whole process all over again.  Why do I keep doing this to myself?  I know that I am prolonging my suffering but I have already taken nine today and it is all I can do to keep from taking another handful.  Yeah, right now I "feel" pretty good but I will be paying a very high price in more ways than one before this week is out.  For twelve long years I have been doing this to myself and living a lie.  Only one other person knows (my brother) and he is in even worse shape than I am with the painkillers.  Right now we are both in the same boat and thank God that I have him to talk to.  NO ONE that has not been through this can POSSIBLY understand just how bad this is.  Most of the time I don't even want to live.  I look in the mirror and hate myself for being so weak.  I just want to give up.  There is no way that I can keep on living like this.

[katie r]

Hello Everyone! Well, one of two things is happening to me. Either I am having NO withdrawals or Thomas's recipe really works!  Since I was taking 15-20 lortab's (10/500) a day...it must be the recipe! I took my last dose of lortabs yesterday morning....last night I was experiencing clammy skin and a few other signs of withdrawals. This morning I started on the "cold turkey recipe" and I feel fine right now. I didn't have any valium but I started on the L-Tyrosine and the B-6 and the others and I actually feel normal. Usually by this point I'm laying on the couch, wallowing in self pity, making calls to people to see if they have "a couple vicadins" and wishing I could climb right out of my skin.I'll post again tomorrow and let you know how it's going. Witchy woman??? I sent you an email last night.....did you get it? Ok folks...later! And Thomas....thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you.

[constant cycle]

Thanks, I will keep checking your forum and I only wish I had looked online for something like this before.  I guess I have been too ashamed to admit my problem to the world.  Only someone that has been there can understand.

Thanks,
constant cycle

[mickytim]

Man did you come to the right place in the right time!
You are now amoung like minded people who have ask ourselves the same question many, many, times, and still asked ourselves. Welcome!
Check out alot of the past posts, including my own from not to long ago and you will find many of us who looked into the same mirror and saw and felt the same shame.

I can tell from your honest and heartfelt plee for help, that you will find that the people you will meet here, will give you the best non judgmental advice, and welcome you with open arms as they did myself and all new posters.

You already analized the situation and have taken a big step in asking about it, now comes the hard part in doing something about it and sticking to it( everyone raise your hand if you failed, mine is up a few times ).

You really should ask your Dr about a pain mgmt clinic, and way your options before you start anything drastic if possible.
because as you read on, the next step is a big one and if you want it bad enough, I mean really want it, we are all here to help support you and give you the best ear anytime you need it, that step is getting of the meds.

Don't be ashamed you are amoung friends

Lots of power and strength on your journey!

Peace

mickytim

[Witchywoman]

Hi Katie,
Yes, I did get your email last night..and sent you one back in response..did you not get it?

That is amazing that you are doing so well!! I'm really happy that you are not suffering with withdrawals..are you also using the zinc/magnesium supplements that pillpoppa recomends?
I did all that..all the supplements, and started before my detox, and still had bad withdrawals.  Please let me know if you continue to be off the meds without the bad symptoms, and let us all know exactly what you've done to get this effect.

love,
WW

[susanlea]

Have you ever tried Toradol?  It now come's in a pill form.  Last year when my now ex had kidney stones and was in the ER with them,  the Dr. gave him shots of Toradol,  it took his pain a way.  I think the ER Dr. knew he was addicted to opiates because of the way he looks.  Long hair, very massy looking.  Toradol is a non narcotic and has a very high success rate... Let me know.
On another note, I will email you about my son's interest in being a pagan.  I will get him that book that you suggested.  His interest lies in good spells and that kind of thing.  I am paying attention when he is on the internet, and so far it's pretty much kid stuff, so I am not too worried at this point.  He asked me to light incense for him tonight, so he could free his mind and get to sleep (first day of school tomorrow)  I am interested in making sure he sticks to this side, the good side.  He is only 12 and I do not want to squash him in any way, since he is really against formal religion, but I do want him to have a belief in himself.  Any info would be appreciated.  Thanks and I will pass on to Jenny later this week your regards....Susan

[Thomas]

I know witchywoman already warned you about tapering off the ativan. But there's more to it than that. Take it from a guy who's had three Xanax-related seizures this year (xanax is almost identical to ativan). First, a little background, all benzodiazepines (valium, ativan, xanax, librium, klonopin, halcion, dalmane, etc) are all metabolalized in the body into the same substance, benzodiazepine. The only difference is the speed at which the drug is converted and delivered to the benzo receptors in the brain. There are basically two kinds of benzos (short half-life and long half-life, meaning the amount of time it takes for the drug to leave the body). Xanax and ativan have half-lives of as little as 8 hours, depending on the individual tested. This means when you try to get off of them, you put your brain, that has become used to having the benzos, on a "dosage rollercoaster" that can result in some cases in potentially fatal seizures (complete loss of consciousness for 5 to ten minutes -- imagine this happening while you're driving a car). The problem with tapering off xanax or ativan is that they're already so potent that the normal dose is as little as .5 of a milligram -- that doesn't give you much to taper with, does it? My life changed for the better when, curse me for not remembering who, but either Francoise or Milo told me about Doctor Heather Ashton's web site devoted to safe detoxing from benzos using Valium. It was the best advice I've ever gotten. Not only can you get Valium in 10, 5 and 2.5 mg dosages to make it easier to taper, but, much more importantly, Valium has a half-life of as much as 200 hours per dose! Compare that to the 8 to 16 hour half-lives of Xanax and Ativan ... Valium's 200 hour half life means the drug leaves your body very, very slowly (it takes more than 8 days for half the dose of a single Valium to leave your bloodstream, regardless of the actual dosage). This means your brain has plenty of time to gradually and safely adjust to, first, the lower dosages of benzos, then get used to eventually doing without the benzos completely.

DO NOT TRY TO TAPER FROM THE ATIVAN! ESPECIALLY IF YOU'VE BEEN ON IT FOR A WHILE.

Go to a search engine and search for Heather Ashton. You'll find an excerpt from her book that you can take to your doctor when you ask him/her to switch you to Valium. It saved my life and, who knows? It might save yours, too. Good luck.

Your Friend,

Thomas

PS: whether it was Francoise or Milo, I hope you both know I love you both for your friendship and your loyalty. Along with my brother JB, CHAD FROM PHILLY, Jennyfla, cindi, angelica, kerrie, and many, many others, you two are both permanent members of my "A" list of cool people. I haven't communicated much lately, and for that I apologize. But all of you have been in my thoughts each and every day. JB, you've been in my prayers as I pray every day for your recovery. You're one of a kind, my brother, and I simply can't do without you. (give Marty a big smooch for me, while you're at it). I've forgotten to mention so many, but I hope you forgive me and know that you're in my thoughts as well,

Your friend to the end,

Thomas

[Thomas]

witchywoman, thanks for the kind words. It really helps to know I'm appreciated ... Your words made me feel good. By the by, I think you're pretty cool as well ...

katie r, curious thing, but even when i was butt miserable from withdrawal, two benedryl put me right to sleep (over the counter, of course). But do, do try to get some benzos like valium or xanax to see you through your detox. Surely, you've got a grandma somewhere who took two valiums and left the rest in the medicine cabinet(!). We can only live in hope ... wish it were legal to send you some, but unfortunately it isn't it. Also, I've read that it takes a month of Kava to realize its effects. I wouldn't count on that stuff for the short term.

Thomas

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Thanks for the kind words of support as usual!  Marty is doing really well these days considering the fact that she has to take care of me for a change.

My cellulitis flared up again and I had some problems.  I'm glad I don't live alone!  I need help getting dressed, on and off the toilet and can't drive,etc.  Kind of scarey for sure.  Marty bought me a Lazy Boy over the weekend and told me to stay there.  It's hard to do...stay off of my feet, that is.

I hope you are doing okay with the benzo situation.  I am still on narcotics for pain but have resigned myself to the fact that they really are necessary.  No buzz like when I was using them for fun...just pain relief.  Hug Bobby for us!  J.B.

[rtrain]

Hello people.  I'm one of those on my last leg.  2 years ago I went out into the shop to try to help catch up and got all 8 fingers 3/4 severed on a big machine.  Many operations later I still have them but they don't feel and don't bend and STILL hurt.  After each operation they gave me hydrocodone.  I would take it for 3 weeks and then it would be gone and... no big deal. Then after my last operation the Dr. wanted me to take ultram so I would not get addicted to the real stuff.  Since then I am so addicted I cannot function.  Lately it doesn't even help so I am trying for the 5 or 6th time to quit.  I did not know you could be so sick.  Everything you've all discribed.  My everything hurts.  My eyes, my teeth, my legs hurt so bad I can barely stand and oh my god my stomach problems.  I have a job.  A lot of people depend on me.  I cannot just stop working and go to some detox.  I cannot quit alone.  I do not know what to do.  I really don't feel this life is worth living anymore but I can't go yet.  It would hurt so many people.  Thought I was strong.  Have been all these years.  But this... I can not do.  Cannot believe the doctors don't know about this ultram.  Like I said... I never had any trouble with hydrocodone.. but this stuff is going to kill me.

[Angelica]

..... I had severe injuries from mva some years ago, and after being told that pain medicine wasn't an option and I had to learn how to live w/ the pain (..and several surgeries later) I decided to do a little research and find out what my options REALLY were.  What I discovered is that, Doctors werent no more concerned about my being addicted than aliens reaking havoc on the planet.  They were concerned (through no fault of their own)about loosing their lively-hood, and their medical licenses.  Anyway, finally coming to terms w/ a life, ahead, filled w/ pain that will only get worse, I had two options (after trying everything) Learn to live w/ the pain (as if thats humanly possible), or find a treatment that I could live w/ long term.  Something that won't tear my stomache lining, and esophogus to shreds, and something that wouldn't deystroy my liver/internal organs.  Well, what could that be??? Opiate pain meds.  I didn't jump into this over-night.  I thought long and hard about this.  I came to this forum and discussed my problems w/ these wonderful people, such as Thomas, JB, CIndi.... Brighty, etc.  Needless to say, 25 broken bones, several surgeries, and many many doctors later, I have decided (once I found a doctor willing to take a chance on me) long-term opiate pain meds was my only choice.  I have been pain free for several months now, and yes battling w/ the dependance a bit, but nothing comes w/o a price, and now I can focus on my life.  I am not one to crawl up and die..... otherwise I would have just wished to die in the accident. To lay it all out on the table: I have to tell you that my only fear is being sooo tolerant to pain meds, knowing that I will have more surgeries, but I'll cross that bridge when I get there. I'm not here that much these days, but I do pop in every now and then...maybe.. I can lead you in the right direction, and maybe help in some way.  Feel free to talk to me any time.  Hang in there...... There is always an answer......to any problem.  
Angelica

[Witchywoman]

Broken, after reading Angelica's post, I realized I mispoke when I last posted to you. If you are in the kind of pain that you are in, it may not be at all in your best interest to go off the meds. I am not trying to give you a rationalization to keep using, but just a reality check, that you might instead need to work toward learing how to use the narcotic for pain appropriately.  There is no virtue in torturing yourself.

I am in pain too, but it is not the level of pain that you are in. If I could not function without the meds due to pain, I would take them. Period. Right now I am limited due to pain, but my surgery recovery is not done, and the doc still expects progressive pain relief over the next three months.

Anyway..just didn't want to send you the wrong message. Have you talked to a pain management doc?

WW

[Angelica]

....Just for the record: You always give very good advice, and I look forward to what you have to say, and value your opinion.  Not sure how my response, made you re-think yours.  LOL  Your definately one who speaks from experience, and all pain is valid.  So, give yourself a pat on the back, cause you've done quite well in your decision making process, where this is concerned.  Opiate pain meds aren't for everyone, and how we view our pain is very different and individualized.  I think, given the circumstances, and personalities.... one should consider this as a last resort.  I was in pain for over 8 years, and it was progressing to the point of no return... I had to accept the fact that I would be an addict, not in the traditional sense, but nevertheless, an addict.  Once you take this route..... there is no turning back.  Your body requires this medication.... minimal pain or severe.  Francoise can attest to this.  So, W.W...... you have to speak out on this forum, and make people question their decisions....  It's of most importance.  You are a genuine person w/ integrity, I can tell.  Thanks for your time, and concern in helping others....we need more people like you. (:
Love,
Angelica

[Thomas]

my great good friend, please take care of yourself. I'm sure Marty does what she can, but still, I don't think you realize how devestating your loss would be to all of us. I don't even want to think about it. I hope your condition is at least improving. If I could give you a spare liver I'd put it in an Eskimo cooler and FedEx it to you right now ... Take care, my one-of-a-kind compadre. The idea of losing all your experience and wisdom to some disease saddens me no end.

Bobbie sends her best to you and Marty as well. She knows how long we've been corresponding and likes reading the posts that reveal your gentle philosophy on life and your compassion for your fellow man ... stay with us, JB, or I'll dig you up and beat the **** out of your corpse!

Your friend,

Thomas

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

You have been such a good friend over the last 18 months!  

Looking back, I remember a much fiestier J.B. and Tom and a few others who've fallen by the wayside.  Hopefully, some of the past posters found a better way of life and are well into recovery now.

A terrible thought occured to me a while back...what if there are no more recoveries left for me?! In the past, I've had the strength to rebound from anything thrown my way.  I thought I was immortal, running rough shod through life and wearing a bullet proof vest.

The point is that for many of us, there may be no more recoveries other than the one we are working on today.  Take it seriously!  I've played with alcohol and narcotics for 30 years and now am paying the piper.  Protect your health by staying clean and sober!  J.B.

[Witchywoman]

Wise words JB, and I'm writing them down in my notebook.

Honestly...I have a notebook with things that I have written down to read for when the cravings to take the meds hit me.

I've got quotes in there from you, Thomas, Cindi, Angelica, Jenny, Wizard, jbear, Lea, Milo, and many, many others from this site who have reached out with their words of wisdom.  I think if I invest as much energy in my recovery as I did in feeding my addiction, I have a pretty good shot at staying clean.

I also wrote letters to myself in the worst of the withdrawals...LOL  I titled them "To my future self, when the addiction beast tries to tempt me"

It works.  

But it is still a one day at a time thing. I can do one day at a time...sometimes an hour at a time.

JB, you were the first one to answer my very first post here, and I want to thank you for reaching out. Please know that you have helped me get my life back.

love,
WW

[clean]

I've been off the methadone for 26 days. I went cold turkey (checked into a nut ward for a week) I am still throwing up alot and have terrible back pain, yawns, runny nose and eyes, and the runs. The vomiting is more from reflux than nausea. However, I don't have the slightest desire for herion today. I'll explain. I really believe today that my last bottom was a blessing. See, I've been in and out of treatment centers, halfway houses,and na for 15 yearas. I'm 33. Now that my ass is whipped almost to death I am ready to finally do what my sponser says. like it or not.I am willing to listen to the chessy slogans and hug people I don't really like. Mainly because I beleive it gets better. I beleive today that how it works it really how it works. My bitterness and anger are still with me I guess. For me, it all boiled down to one simple question. Will I live or Will I die. Recovery is a ***** sometimes. I needed the nut hut instead of an expensive more comfortable kick. (buprenex is almost painless if you can get it) When I detoxed on buprenex I thought "****, I can do dope, I just need buprenex or ibogaine to come off it.I was off again. Don't give up. Love, Clean

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Thank you so much!  I used to post several times a day to help me and you stay on course.  I'm happy to see that so many people here have been listening to our messages of hope and strength.

This has become a kinder, gentler forum in the past few months which is good by all means.  Witcthywoman, you have been very helpful here and I for one appreciate your involvement!

BTW:  I've been taking L-tyrosine, B-6, 5HTP and a multimineral and can hardly believe the benefits.  All this works quickly and has none of the side effects of some of the AD's I've tried.  Thanks for the recipe!  J.B.

[Thomas]

what is 5HTP?

Thomas

[niccee]

I have tried to find 5HTP and can't. Can someone help?

[cindi]

JB,,,I am with Thomas,,right behind him as a matter of fact,,,,I don't know what I would have done without you guys and few past timers here the past 8 months..once I get through this next week of being as busy as I am I will be back posting  more,,it has been the week from hell....and ANGELICA ,,,,you are included in there,,,,,,,,,,,,love you all   cin

[Witchywoman]

Thomas,
5 HTP stands for 5 hyroxytryptophan. It is an amino acid. It comes from the seed of the Arfican Guarian plant.  It is the direct chemical precusor to seratonin.  When tryptophan was legal, folks took tryptophan to raise seratonin. Tryptophan converts in the body to 5 HTP, which then converts to seratonin, which elavates mood.

The thing is, tryptophan alone is ineficient, in that the liver gets its hands on it and destroys a lot of it before it can become 5 HTP in the body. So taking 5 HTP bypasses that step.

Basically, it achieves the same effect as the ssri's in that more seratonin is available in the body, but it does this simply by letting body make more seratonin rather than blocking the uptake of seratonin.  So, you don't get the nasty side effects that the ssri's give.

I've researched the hell out of 5 HTP this past few weeks, and discovered the original medical studies on it. The studies data analysts concluded that 5 HTP is as effective or more effective than paxil, prozac, zololft etc, with none of the side effects.

I've been on prozac, and it worked for me, but I went off due to the sexual side effects. The 5 HTP works as well or better for me than the prozac did, and no side effects. I'm a happy camper!

People already on ssri's shouldn't take it, and folks wanting to switch to it should research carefully and talk to their docs before going off an antidepressant.

here's a link with a little more on it:

http://www.mineralconnection.com/5htp.htm

love,
WW