fioricet

[scared2]

i have been addicted to fioricet without codeine for over 6 year s, i take just about 6 or 7 a day, i take about 3 every morning to get me going, because i feel it is the only way to get me going.  i want to stop.  i am scared that i may have caused liver damage, and i do not want to die.  i also in addition at night right after work pop 1 1/2 of vicodin es, but not any more than that.  but none the less still addicted.  and i have been doing that for the same amount of time, but just in the past year taking 1/1/2 everyday, it used to be just on the weekends.

i need some advise on stopping, what kind of withdrawls i might have.  what kind of herbs can i take to help maybe correct my liver damage.  i am 31, and i think i still have a chance to reverse any damage, if i can just stop using.

please help

scared

[pepsi4]

I'm not an expert on the withdrawals, but I'm sure you'll be hearing from others soon (also, read some of the earlier threads -- you will learn a lot).  As far as liver damage goes, have you had liver tests done?  If not, you should.  The best herb that I know of for liver damage is Milk Thistle (silymarin) -- it really seems to help.  You need to come up with a plan to get yourself off of drugs first.  I know that you can safely self detox off of opiates, but I don't know about the sedative (butalbital, I believe) in fioricet.  If you've been taking these for this long, you probably have a doc that can help you out.  If you need more info on Milk Thistle, let me know -- there's lots of info on the web about it.  
Also, give yourself a break.  By posting here, you are showing your true strength.....

[The Golden Slipper]

Hello

I stopped taking fioricet the end of November.  I have had a 20 year addiction to this drug on and off.  It was prescribed to me for migraine headaches back in the mid 80's and at first it worked great and I only took it when I needed it.

However, after awhile I started taking it to prevent a headache because I was afraid of getting one.  Gradually it became an addiction and I was taking it daily mainly for the "buzz" that it provided.

The most I every took was 10 per day.  That was enough to scare me and I have been in detox's 3 times and have also gone off cold turkey once.  A mistake I would never make again.

You need to be careful because the butalbital in the fioricet is a barbituate and you can be at risk for a seizure if you go off cold turkey.  You also can have some real bad headaches, anxiety and insomnia if you quit cold turkey.

This last time I went off I went to my doctor (1 of them I had 5 doctors prescribing this stuff for me) and fessed up that I was abusing the fioricet. He put me on a tapering program which was difficult but I got through it.  I also went to an addictionologist who took over my case and helped me continue to taper until I was completely off the stuff.  I was prescribed "neurontin" for the anxiety, insomnia and pain that goes along with withdrawal.  This time it has not been that difficult.  I have not had one sleepless night, I have had some anxiety but nothing too severe.  I have had some bad headaches but I take Imitrex for them and it seems to work.

To make a long story short, if you really want to safely wean off of this drug I would see a doctor who can help you. Addictionologists are doctors who specialize in working with addiction and can help you to safely detox.  I don't want to scare you about the chance of a seizure because I have been told that at that low a dose even at my dose which did go up to 10 some days, that it was unlikely to happen.  

Why take the chance though, better to be safe than sorry.  As far as the opiate that you are taking there are many people on this forum who can help you with that. I am not all that familiar with opiate withdrawal although I do know that people say it can feel like you have the flu.

As far as your concern about your liver. You can have blood tests to show your liver function that will tell you if you have any damage.

Please keep posting here there are alot of good people on this forum.  We also post over on "DrugAbuse.Com" under the support section.  There is a whole thread on fioricet over there as well.


Best of luck
Golden Slipper

[FiorinalJR]

################

[Kat49]

Hi JR!  Maybe we can keep a thread going about the dreaded F! The only thing is that they don't keep our bios and we have to repeat our stories to all newcomers.  Anyway, to "Scared2" I have to say that I was never on fioricet w/codeine so I don't know how it feels or the withdrawals.  I went off plain fiorinal (that's with aspirin) cold turkey and the withdrawals for me were horrendous! Anxiety, dizziness, vomiting for 1st whole day, trembling for several days and a headache that would knock an elephant out cold!  I used Imitrex constantly, phenergan suppositories for nausea, valium to calm down the shakes and when my stomach could take it, I used Excedrin. Now, there's alot of info in all medical books about going off fiorinal/fioricet suddenly and getting seizures. I think that's if you take a tremendous amount - not 6/day. I've gone CT 4 times in the last several years and never experienced seizures. I did hallucinate the 1st time, however, by seeing flashing things that weren't really there. It went away after a week. The worst part is the cravings afterwards when the physical **** is over and you get a massive headache. You want to reach for the fiorinal because it WORKS better than any other and that's the beginning of slipping up.  My goal is to use it "responsibly" as it was originally prescribed. I know I'll always have migraines and NOTHING works for the pain better.  So, hope we can help you, Scared2, and we'll talk again.    Kat

[The Golden Slipper]

JR- I have been watching both forums also.  I don't know what to think I really don't want us to get knocked off again. I agree with Kat it is difficult to go through my whole story with the newcomers. Although if I truly can help someone it is worth it.

I feel bad that some of the recent people have not continued to post.  I wish I knew how Connie was doing and pray that she is ok.  I think we have to understand that this does happen. People reach out and then get scared and pull back.  We all know how powerful this drug is!!!!!

I will continue to peruse both forums and try to respond whevever I can.

To anyone out there who has relapsed and is afraid to post please know that we understand.  I have relapsed many many times and come back again.

Take Care
Golden

[FiorinalJR]

Hi!  I read your comments about not wanting to have to keep re-posting your "stories" on drugabuse.com.  There is an easy solution.

Go to this link on drugabuse.com:   http://www.drugabuse.com/boards/

Then, on the left side under "Message Boards", click on "Edit User Info".  Then login, and you can edit your User info.  One of the places you can enter info is near the bottom "Comments".  Put your story in there, then whenever your do a post anyone can access your info.  You can also access their info.  What you do is when you open a post to read it, up top in red, there is the name of the person who posted.  Something like "Message #2449 posted by Kat49 (info)".  If you click on info, you get that person's info - including those comments you put in.

Go to da.com and open one of my posts - then then up top next to my name "posted by", click on info, and you will see the brief (for now) comments I put in.

Hope this helps!

JR

[FiorinalJR]

Cindy, regarding your post at drugabuse.com, here's a copy of a post I put there to your attention:

Cindy, as a former big supporter of Medhelp, let me help you understand the sentiments here.  A number of us who are now here at drugabuse.com have become very dissillusioned because for several months, we had a "Fioricet/Fiorinal" thread going.  We were helping each other successfully.  I was on the site at least twice a day!  Then all of a sudden, without warning, we couldn't post to that thread any longer.  Then we couldn't post anywhere on the Medhelp board.  Then the whole thread we had put together to help us and "newbies" just plain disappeared!  A lot of work down the drain.  So, we came here.

Can you give us some insight as to why this happened, and assure us it will not happen again?  If so, we'll come back.  Any "trashing" of Medhelp is just frustration from all of the hard work WE put into helping each other and others who were looking for help, only to see it all go away.

I hope this helps you and everyone at Medhelp to understand.  For months, we we big supporters!

Thanks,    JR

[Kat49]

I have to ditto JR's above post.  However, with one other change that I noticed: before, each thread had the bios of each person who started way back as far as Aug. Sometimes I (we?) like to go back and re-read from the beginning and see how that person got to where they are today (in the good sense) OR relapsed. It also helped to just remember what WE ourselves posted since the drugs DO cause memory lapses or lack of memory period! I realize that you can't keep this stuff forever and I know from where I work how tremendously expensive it is to keep the thread a mile long! But, it seems that the threads are TOO up-to-date and past posts from just January on, are deleted and we only have info on each other from only a few weeks back!  I personally love this forum WAAAYYYYY better than the other one because you can scroll down and read - it's so easy - especially when you're very busy. Also, the people here are very intelligent, knowledgable, helpful and compassionate. You should read some of the "guest book" comments on the other forum! Pathetic!! Even some of the posts are crude and sarcastic. And the general forum is a sad lot!  If I want to hear some of the crude lingo on drugs, I can go to the local highschool!  I think that some of the people on the thread I was using (fiorinal) never came back because of the new changes and they just gave up. I guess the funding is the problem as in all businesses today.  Hope everyone has a great day!  Kat

[scared2]

thank you for responding.  i still have not stopped.  i also have gone thru the web of going thru many different doctors to keep getting it.  i still do.

yes, i have had a liver function test, and it wasnt so good, it showed some, but not severe.  i think it can be reversable.  if i can just get the courage to stop.

i am buying a house in 2 months, (cash) and i will not have to keep working full time, so with that in mind, i intend to concentrate on this problem.  this way i will not have to worry about loosing my job as a result.  i do not beleive in cold turkey, when the time comes i am going to consult a good doctor, not one that will just keep giving them to me.  i just want to be myself again. right now just typing this, i am shaking, becasue i finally admitted to myself that this is a big problem, but at least i know there are other out there, belive it or not, i really felt i was the only one.    thank you, i will still come to this sight, i cant do it all the time, because i do not want my fiance to now how big of a problem i have.
scared2

[dancinginthedark]

It's great to hear from you.  I was wondering & concerned
about you.

We all completely understand how terrified you are.  I too have tried to type or write with my hands shaking once I realized what a mess I was in.  It's amazing how long it takes us to face the truth, isn't it?  In this, Scared, you are NOT alone.  But I think the fear represents your inner, true self acknowledging a terrifying reality.  A reality you've no doubt ignored for a very long time.  I'm going to bet, that like the rest of us, you are a high achiever & have never met your Waterloo, so to speak.  Or, when you did, you bull-dozed right over it!  And now, to recognize you've unwittingly come up against something stronger than the best of your will-power, immune to free will & your better sensibilities..WE ALL KNOW BECAUSE WE'VE BEEN THERE!

Your liver test results must have been disconcerting but there is something you can painlessly do right now to help with that. I believe you said you were taking fiorcet with codeine.  The fiorcet is tylenol based whereas the fiorinal is aspirin based.  Can you believe here in Canada they only have the fiorinal?  I'm actually grateful for that but get your doc(s) to switch you.  The doc who ordered the liver test should have no prob doing so & as to the rest (if they exist) just tell them you also take tyl plain for milder headaches, cramps, your sore back, etc. & you're worried about the amount of tylenol you've been taking because tyl. danger has been all over the news of late. Also, milk thistle from your vitamin store is proven to aid the ailing liver & is actually used in hospitals in Europe for that, and in particular, tylenol & other overdoses.  So, why not give that a go?  I'm not saying it's a cure but it sure won't hurt.  Maybe ask Thomas03 on this board for advice as to how much to take because he's like a walking, talking encyclopedia about such matters & has researched copiously.

JR & I have cut out the codeine.  If you read around, I've written much on it & JR, who I believe was taking about 15 F with codeine a day, quit cold turkey & had NO problem.  Again, tell the doc you find them rather strong, would rather cut codeine because you're already taking Fiorcet & feel confident the plain will be fine.  Docs like that can-do, want a weaker drug thing.  You can even taper off them but cold turkey off codeine is not a prob.  It is not a long or difficult process & JR & I cam help you with it.  Like me, you are dealing with a dual addiction, that being opiates and the bultalbital.

I hope you find a way to come here often.  We have a very supportive group, as good as joined at the...fiber optic line!   Golden has quit completely after 20+ yrs., Kat takes 1 occasionally & JR has gone from 20 F with codeine a day to 5.  And I'm getting there!  Actually, since joining this grp just a few mos. ago, I quit the codeine completely (and  I was taking a TON!) & am at 5 F plain a day.  Perhapse best of all, I now know I can stop it completely whereas before I couldn't even think about it.  I've become inspired by my grp's successes & they, however unwittingly, have made me believe I can do it.  Just 2 yrs. ago I used to take 15-17 a day....ahem!  Told you we were high achievers!

I'm married to my cat & as long as he can do CPR on my chest & gets fed, he doesn't care how bad I'm feeling.  However, most of the others do have spouses & perhaps they can offer you some wisdom as to how to deal with that situation.

Welcome to our group and tell yourself the truth right now.  You can beat this if you want to.  And here, you'll get the kind of support & camaraderie you'd never find from a therapist or 1 of your prescribing doctors.

Hey, would you like to be one of the Bultalbital Babes?  Or, Barbi Babes (bultalbital is a barbituate).

Take care & stay close to us.

Dancing in the Dark

[dancinginthedark]

A thought.  Since threads are deleted at a certain capacity, why don't we (I'll volunteer) delete unneccessary msgs?  The, "How are you, gossip, not relevant, repeated" types.  That would keep the thread shorter & enable us to stay alive longer here, at our fave site.

Cindy hates my guts right now so I'm not asking!  But surely, there must be a way & like I said, I'll take responsibility for it.  I could even first copy those ready for the shredder so we always have them on hand.

Is that doeable?  I'm no computer whiz....

Special hugs 'n kisses for JR & Kat.  

Best,
Judy

[Kat49]

Hey hey hey woman!!!!  Or should I say "Miss Judy" - I thought I was the original "Butalbital Babe"?!?! Seriously, I don't think we can delete or do anything with this forum on our computers. I believe that is in the hands of the people who own the forum and man the computers. But, what do I know??  I'm just a "Barbi Babe"        Kat

[chronicheadaches]

I've been taking Fiorcet (without Codeine) for over 10 years now for migraines.  It was like a miracle drug at first, probably because I didn't take it everyday and if I did it was never more than 2 a day.  Over the years I got off it a few times, with no real withdrawl symptoms (I wasn't taking enough of it.)  More recently my migraines worsened so I upped my intake to 4-6 a day, and eventually I became dependant on it meaning I was getting headaches because I wasn't taking it (not addicted mind you,) and also quite tolerant to it.  I was then prescribed Hydrodcodone because the Fiorcet just wasn't doing it's job.  I stopped the Fioricet again cold turkey with again no withdrawls.  Quit for 3 months straight and it regained it's strength.  I'm now taking about 2 a day again, and am currently weaning off of it as fast as I can.  Really it's not that strong a of a drug, it only contains tylenol, caffeine, and a small amount of barbituate.

[Kat49]

If you are staying at such a low dose then, of course, your withdrawals won't be much to write home about!  If you're supplementing with hydrocodone, it'll mask the major WD's, also. And if you say it's not a dangerous drug - IT IS!!!!!! Why do you think so many of us are on here?  It's the butalbital - it's a freakin' barbiturate!!  Maybe your brain chemistry doesn't get "turned on" like some of us and you can start and stop as you please. It's like vicoden - look at all the addicts on this forum!!!  I can take it or leave it at any time.  Fiorinal is my drug of choice and it's very difficult.  I take Imitrex to supplement it - hydrocodone will cause major rebound or hangover effect. Ask any specialist. It's NOT for headaches alone unless mixed with fiorinal/cet. Maybe in the beginning of using it, but after awhile it won't stop a headache alone.  Kat

[FiorinalJR]

Kat, if you're the original "Bultalbital Babe", am I the original "Butalbital Hunk" (or something like that)?  Am I the only guy on this, and the drugabuse.com boards?  I wonder if I'm the only guy with this problem (F's), or if there are many more, but they are just too macho to seek help.

Whaddya think?

JR

[chronicheadaches]

There's a very small amount of butalbital mixed in with a large amount of Tylenol and a low dose of caffeine.  I fail to see how this is a real abusable drug.  In my opinion, if you have a problem getting off of it get some Phenobarbital and ween off of that ...it should diffuse any withdrawl symptoms without having to take anymore Tylenol.  

And yes, my situation is different because I basically switched over from 6 Fioricet a day to 6 Hydro's.  I also use Imitrex to supplement my pain along with Ativan and Phenergen.

[Kat49]

I think you're right about guys not wanting to come forward and seek help.  I personally know just women addicted to fiorinal, but I'm sure there are guys out there, too.   As far as the post above by the person who thinks it's not an abusable drug - you should visit a rehab center and see all the people coming off a long addiction of fiorinal.  The "small" amount of the barb. is multiplied with each pill and just because you don't happen to be addicted to it, doesn't mean it isn't a dangerously addictable drug!  I fail to see how hydrocodone or even Oxycontin is addicting!!!  I can't stand to take it - it works, but I feel no "high" from it, just an "out of it" kind of feeling. So, I would never get into that drug.  Everyone's different!

[chronicheadaches]

I'm not trying to cause any trouble here, I would just find it impossible for myself to get addicted to a drug such as Fioricet.  That's what makes this my opinion.  The tylenol is in there so you can't abuse it, that's why I never would.  If I had some straight up bultabital it would be easily abusable.  I guess you can abuse anything though if you don't care about the consequences of taking high amounts of it, i.e., destroying your liver with the Tylenol for what little high you can eek out of Fioricet.  I've been addicted to drugs before but found all my strength in God to help me through it.   This is all just my opinion, just as ya'll have stated yours I have stated mine.   You don't have to read it or believe it, it's just what I think.

[Kat49]

You switched from 6 fioricet to 6 hydros?  You mean vicoden?  That in itself has a base of tylenol! That will fry your liver before fiorinal! Fiorinal has aspirin - not tylenol. Fioricet has the tylenol.  I don't take 6/day either. Don't you think that trading 6 fioricet for 6 hydro is trading one addiction for another??????  And hydro should NEVER be given to treat headaches according to the world-famous Diamond Headache Center in Chicago or Johns Hopkins neurological headache research unit. Both places also avoid fiorinal/cet like the plague because of the high addiction potential.  Your opinion is your opinion and that's why we have the 1st Amendment, but again, if fiorinal/cet wasn't addictive, why would so many be on this forum and others. They cleaned house here at Medhelp, but the fiorinal forum last year was tremendous with stories all the same: started out with migraines (before Imitrex was introduced in the U.S.) and got addicted and abused the drug for the "buzz" it gave. Most of the people here couldn't care less about vicoden or   any hydro - their weakness is fiorinal and sometimes we have some who have taken fiorinal w/codeine.  They said the codeine or even hydro additive to the fiorinal was a walk in the park to detox from compared to the butalbital.  And also, phenobarbital isn't for everybody, either. My doctor won't prescribe it and only if you're taking tremendous amounts of fiorinal (12/day and over). Your opinion about not seeing how this is addictive is understandable if you don't have the potential to be addicted to it. On the other hand, I don't see how vicoden is addictive because I don't care for it.  So, we all have out "drugs of choice" that our brain chemistry happens to like. Just don't tell an addict that his/her drug can't be addicting because of the tylenol/aspirin and caffeine! It's the butalbital - and they don't even make butalbital to be administered by itself. You have to have it mixed with an analgesic like aspirin in order for it to work.   Hope you understand better where we're all coming from.  We also talk on another forum and there are plenty of us, believe me!!!!!!

[chronicheadaches]

I switched over from 6 Fioricet to 6 Hydrocodone's (Not Vicoden, the stuff I was taking was 10/650, traditional Vicoden has like 5/350) because the Fioricet stopped doing it's job after over 10 years of use (daily.)  I realize the Hydro contains a substantially larger amount of Tylenol than the Fioricet, but hey, whatever works works.  I figured if I'm going to be taking all of that Tylenol I may as well take something stronger that will work.  I've also tried the Fioricet w/ Codeine, I even still have a few left.  They worked alright.  I'm now completely off anything that contains Tylenol, however my liver enzymes were fine when checked recently.

[Kat49]

Thank God for that!  I say, also, whatever works works, right? You shouldn't be a martyr to pain just because you don't want to pop a pill - I mean responsibly. How and why would anyone or could anyone live day to day with constant pain or migraines? It's absurd!

[Jerri2]

Hydrocodone is generic for vicodin both come in different strengths!!!!!   Jerri

[Kat49]

Jerri is correct - thankyou Jerri!!!!  I knew that. I think someone above needs to get a Physician's Desk Reference or better known as PDR book at the bookstore and learn about drugs and their generic equivalents before he/she goes around saying, "I don't take vicoden"! and they really are.  And at 6/day for headaches ...........!!!!

[FiorinalJR]

Hi, chronic.  I can assure you that nobody here wants to "beat you up" or anything.

But, regarding the "small amount" of Butalbital in Fiorinal/cet, there is 50 mg of Butalbital in each.  That may not sound like a lot, but it is.  If you read some of the info on the Web (do a Google search on Fiorinal/cet) you will find that the experts say that taking F's, as little as a couple a day for more than three days a week can get you hooked.

As far as the Tylenol, that's the least of our worries right no.  It's not addicting, and even though it can cause liver damage - if you stop taking it, your liver will repair itself.  As you may know, your liver is the only organ in your body that can regenerate and repair itself.

I was taking 18 to 20 Fioricets (some were Fiorinal's and Fiorinal #3's) for 25 years!  My liver function test were a little bit off, but okay.  I have now tapered off Fioricet (no more Fiorinal or codeine) and I'm down to 5/day.  Still working to get to zero.  I had a liver function test two weeks ago, and I am in the mid-range of normal.

So, don't worry about the Tylenol (acetominophen).  Worry about the addictive stuff that it's mixed with.

Good luck, CH.

JR

[Thomas03]

save your money, the PDR is online:

http://www.itzalist.com/hea/physicians-desk-reference-online.html

Thomas

[chronicheadaches]

Thanks for all the info, ya'll have been really informative.

I do have the PDR, it's just been awhile since I've looked up the drugs I'm taking.  When I get a new one I'll look it up but I always forget the info, daily use of Ativan will do that to you.

Thanks again.

[enigma0301]

hi everyone im new to this form.. i have taken fiornal for  about 10 years now.. i startted out taking about 60 to 100 pills in a week.. in the last year i cut it down to taken about 60 in a weekend... and would only take it on the weekends...and in the last 3 monthes i have take probally about 80 - to a hundred in 3-4 days... i have tried to stop taking it many of times and the longest i have gone was 2 1/2 monthes... but i get the craving and have to have it... i use to be addicted to many other drugs ranging from coke to xanax and many other different pills... i have stopped everything else ... but just cant kick the fiornal.. no matter how much i try.. i just cant... but just last week my wife told me i had to stop completely or she was leaving for good this time... so i have stopped.. so far its been ok  but then i havent  got a craving yet... im not sure really how to live completely with out it... and im not sure what will come next without taking it... im doing this cold turkey and so far i havent got any major withdrals.. so i was wondering if anyone has any advise on what i do next and how to stay off  of it doing it cold turkey...

thanks  enigma0301

[Kat49]

Hey enigma!  Read your post and couldn't believe how many you take on weekends!  I've been taking fiorinal since 1985 and the most I ever took was 10/day!  I've gone cold turkey 4 times and each time have gotten deathly sick and then felt much better than I did while on them.  My problem is that I get migraines and it helps abort them before they're out of control and I have to take Imitrex which is $22/pill! How do you get so many fiorinals prescribed anyways? The aspirin alone will destroy your stomach and blood platelets and if you take fioricet the tylenol will kill your liver. You probably don't have much symptoms from going cold turkey because you have SO MUCH of the drug in your body built up. When did you start CT?  If it's been weeks, then maybe you are one lucky guy! There are a whole bunch of us fiorinal addicts who post on drugabuse.com because our really long thread on this was cut down and then deleted. Our stories of how and why we got into this were erased, but if you read all the info on the other forum, you can get an idea of how we all can't shake this drug either. It sucks!!! Hope to talk to you again.  Good luck - Kat

[dancinginthedark]

Welcome Enigma,

You are NOT the only one who is struggling with fiorinal/cet.  As Kat explained, there's a whole gang of us over at DrugAbuse.com.  Go to "Support" & scroll down to the 2nd F bit, the realy long one.  We have a fabulous, supportive grp of people there & we can not only help you out but will be more than happy to doeso.

Like Kat, I'm wondering when you quit cold turkey (c/t).  I am concerned because we are all detoxing very slowly - usually 1 tablet every 2-3 wks. - because of the danger of seizures & other icky withdrawal symptoms, most notably rebound headaches and ANXIETY!  (Sound familiar? ;-)  At the level & length of time you've been taking, I would urge you to NOT stop c/t.  Please don't.  Such seizures have even lead to death.  Sorry to scare you but you do need to know this.  No point in going thru all the angst of c/t to only croak!

I'm 105 lbs. & a neurologist prescribed me 15 F plain a day for ages so I too was on the very high consumption, probably more than you if weight be a factor.  I too tend to binge which sounds like what you do as well.  I'm now down to 5 a day (yeah, well ;-) but 35 a wk. max.  It took a long time to get here & for me, the only way it's happened is by doing it slow.  

You'll find yourself in good co. over at DrugAbuse.com so pls get over there & meet JR, Golden, Linnie Sue, & Pilot.  You  know Kat & myself but we've all been where you are.  JR was on 20 a day, mostly with codeine.  He's now down to 5 a day Plain & tho struggling with headaches, doing great. I should tell you, most of us have worked with a neurologist/headache specialist, or in my case, a very knowledgeable GP, to successfuly cut down or go off this properly.  *Most* docs are great at getting you hooked on it but clueless as to how to get you off it.    

We've all discussed over & over that medicinal benefits aside, F just locks onto certain pl & won't let go.

PlSee you on our thread!

Best,

Dancing in the Dark

[dancinginthedark]

Enigma,

I also wanted to tell you this is a super site & also has wonderful, supportive & in many cases, knowledgeable ppl.  As Kat said, we moved because our thread filled up, we had to find a new home & we moved there before this site was back on-line.  And there, we can post ad nauseum whereas there are space limitations here which I suspect are not problematic to most.  Us F folk, undoubtedly due to the long detox we all undergo need to be in touch A LOT!  (Or, we like to chat a lot!)

I would urge you to stay in touch with *both* medhelp & drugabuse.  In this fight, the more support the better!

Best wishes to you & hang in there,

Dancing......

[enigma0301]

thank u all for ur advice... and yes i will go check out the drugabuse form.. and will continue here.... im online everyday and i need support... i stopped ct last wesday... but before i stopped wensday morning i took 80 f's monday and tuesday.... since then i havent had not 1...( sorry for my spelling cant do that very well)so it hasnt been a week yet... i get so many cus my doctor gives me 100 with alot of refills... and i can get them pretty much when i want....... as with the withdraws  i get the headaches from not taking it.. and  i have anxiety, and chest pain... about a month an a half a go i had a heart attack.. but my wife understand that i may have some withdraws she has gone through this with me for 3 years now and she helps me how ever she can... but the f has caused many problems with us.. cus i get very mean when i take it... and she told me last tuesday that it was the f or her... so i stopped....i guess in a way i have been very lucky in the last 10 years cus i dont really go through the withdraws that much anymore... i use to bad... very badly... and my doctor wont help me... and i think if i have people that understand the problem that f puts on u then i will be ok.. i take imitrex for my headaches... but i didnt get hooked on f from having headaches a friend of mine showed me that u can get really high from them and at the time i was doing just about anything  that was put in front of me... and i was 17 then and when i met my wife i stopped everything i was hooked on... but f just as a hook in me that wont let go... it has  messed up my stomack bad i have trouble  eating just about everything... i have had a liver scan and surprisingly my liver is just fine there isnt any problems with it... like i said i guess im very lucky... and now after take it for so long i have  real bad headaches...my thing is i cant stop slowly cus once i take 4 or 5  i have to take them all day long... till i have taken like 25-30... and then i have to wake up and take more.... so i have to do this ct... or i wont ever get off it..

thanks to all

hope to talk to u all again

enigma0301

[Kat49]

You poor thing!  I feel sorry for you - your doctor is alot to blame for this! Never should give 100 with lots of refills. He's not informed of the dangers of this drug AT ALL!!  I personally think that you have SO MUCH in your system that you won't have withdrawals for awhile when your body is crying out for more as it purges what's left. I also fear for you that you'll have grand mal seizures from the amount you take in one day!  MY GOD - talk about putting holes in your stomach! You should seriously go to a detox program (longterm with lots of followup care) if you can't taper. I feel sorry for you - I mean that. Fiorinal does that, but some of us just simply stop after so many because it does affect our stomachs and you feel lousy. Also, we all don't have a neverending supply like you do and that's part of your problem.  That doctor should have his freakin' head examined! If a doctor prescribes too much of that **** (it's a barbiturate) and it's a controlled substance, the DEA will eventually shut him down. Don't the pharmacists ever question you? They sure did to me and I was getting 30 with 2 refills!  If I went back in a 6 day period after taking 30 the one ******* actually called the doc's office and asked if I'm "fiorinal dependant"!!!  Now, that I look back - he's right. You need some professional help and we're here, too. I'm sure all of us "Fiorinal Fanatics" will give you our 2 cents and you have support here. We also have another guy "Fiorinal Freddie" (that's JR). So, you just hang in there and we'll all try to help you.  Hugsssssssss    Kat

[The Golden Slipper]

I had a doc about 5 years ago who prescribed 100 fioricets for me with 5 refills.  When I got that script I thought I was in Heaven.

When I took it to the pharmacy they actually questioned the amount and called the doc's office.  Of course he verified it because it was a legit script.  I remember the look on the pharmacist's face she could not believe a doc would write for that amount.  Of course she filled it and I took it plus all 5 refills.

Kat is right your doc should have his head examined.  Most scripts are written for 20-30 with maybe 1 or 2 refills. I used to take 30 within 4 days and then call in my refill.  I have to say I was never questioned.  The only time I had a problem was when it wouldn't go through my insurance and then they would deny the refill and say it was so many days too soon.

I used to feel guilty using my insurance and would often say I didn't have any and pay cash for the pills.  I also was concerned that the insurance company would catch on that I had a slew of different docs prescribing me the fiorcet.

I guess I was very lucky I never got caught. Please stay with us Enigma we all need support from each other.

You will get through this.

Golden

[enigma0301]

hi hope everyone is having a good day... me and my wife talked last night and read over alot of the withdrawal materal and figured out that it takes about 2 monthes for the f to get out of my system... the last time i stopped it was only for 2 1/2 monthes... and then i had to have it... so we figure it wont hit me hard for 2 monthes... and then its going to hit real hard...i wont have any seizures cus i take lamictal for bipolar... so thats probally why the last ten years i havent had one.... yea this time im sure a big part is the dr... but in texas  f is not a controled subtance so he will always get away with it... and i dont use insurance so the pharmicies dont ask questions... now when i lived in pa i didnt get has many but i had at one point about 6 dr giving me 30-60 with 2 or 3 refills... and i was always getting caught messing up either being to soon at the pharmicy or forgetting which dr gave me the last...when i moved to texas i thought i was in heaven but all i have done is make my health worse and  startted to destroy my marriage... but hey at the time i thought taking the pills was the best thing in life....i guess im lucky to golden i never got caught by the law... and yes if it gets to much with in the next to monthes i will probally have to go to a detox program... im just not sure  what they do there and how they get u off the f... and right now i seem fine but like u said i have so much in my system that it takes for ever for it to come out... and once it comes out ill be in pure hell... cus i cant go get it fill and get the fix my body will need...thank u both for listening and giving adivce.. its helping.. as i take each day 1 hour at a time...

enigma0301

[Kat49]

Hey kiddo, you sound like you are really serious about getting help. Being bipolar doesn't help the addiction situation, either. Where you live in Texas may make a bit of difference in the attitude of the pharmacists, but I will tell you without a doubt that fiorinal is definitely a controlled substance and it says so in my 2003 PDR! It HAS to be because of the barbiturate in it. If you take fioricet (that's with tylenol instead of aspirin) it's a different classification, but nonetheless, it is monitored by the DEA and is a Scheduled drug. Texas is part of the U.S. and so is PA where I live, so the laws are the same. I understand that Texas is lax in alot of attitudes because of the border towns and all the illegal **** coming in from Mexico and people from the US going into Mexico.  

If you feel that you may experience extreme anxiety when withdrawal hits, why don't you request some valium to use short term. It will help the anxiety and cravings. But, you did say you had tried benzos I think and other stuff.  Being bipolar and under a doctor's care, I can't believe he'd prescribe 100's of fiorinals to you!!!! My son is studying to be a neuro psychiatrist and said it doesn't make any sense at all unless you're going on the internet or going into Mexico and getting an illegal script. My best friend's son is bipolar (31 yrs. old) and they monitor his meds so carefully that he gets tested every month!  So, I'm not getting alot of this - it is too outrageous plus someone telling you fiorinal is not a controlled substance - I'm not a doctor, but all's you have to do is look it up on the internet or go to a bookstore and it will tell you that it is controlled. I hope you get better informed as to what you're using and the dangers of it. By the way, did you originally get it because of severe headaches or do you use it to get "high". I would think that it would conflict with your medication for bipolar and that alone would cancel out all the good your medication is doing for your mental condition. After all, it IS a barbiturate and affects the nervous system and brain.  Hope all is well - Kat

[Kat49]

For your info: I just got on the internet about fiorinal being a scheduled drug and it is CIII. It's right up there with anything mixed with codeine, percocet, etc. And that is ALL U.S. pharmacies. You may think they're not paying attention but behind the scenes they have to record every purchase and who it went to and all that goes to the DEA.

[dancinginthedark]

I can tell you F is very much a controlled substance in Canada.  You d/not receive a normal scrip but a triplica as your scrip.  Thte form, filled out with everything including your chest size. must be filled ou by Doc & & they also fill out the # prescriped, both in letters & numerically - twice. All his DEA info & #'s go on same form - in code.   Doc keeps a copy & 2 go to the fillimg pharmacist.  With all those carbon copies, I can't imagibe how you'd change anything!  The pharmacykeeps a copy once you receibe scrip.  It's the same form they use for morphine, percs, etc.  My doc keeps these "scrip" forms at the fron t desk - never in his office as he tends to bop in & out a lot.  Much as I hate it ;-), it diminishes abuse, or at the very least, the temptation.

On the downside of our divine med/ system ;-), virtually all docs hand out Tylenol #3, like candy.  Sore toe?  Here's a 100 plus 5 refills.  After my decade in the U.S., where I probably had 1 20 tab bottle of T3's that lasted me for a few mos. Since my headaches were still enough to fell an elephant (thanks Kat!! ;-) my doc said, no more, it's too addictive & started me on some anti inflammatories.

I'm looking at the clock & it'as 3.5 hrs. until D-Day.  I'm in a minor state of shock.  I keep wondering what Americans did in the hrs. before they attacked after Pearl Harbor.  By then, Cda had been long involved in the conflict overseas.  I had to throw that in to show that historically we've not alway been cowards.  
Realistically, we should be in Code Red as we welcome one & all, w/out papers at Canadian Immigration.  It's like COME ON IN!  Rumor has it a shuttle bus takes new immigrants to apply immed. for the full free med. they will receive after 3 mos. residency, and welfare.

I think we have more sleeper cells than the U.S.  Easy access to get in the country & very easy access into the U.S.

I've got CNN & on for some reasan,I'm remembering the great Y2K debacle.

Do you realize if someone farts in the dssert after 5pm, it will be reported & treated as a gas attack?  

Best,
Joods!


.

I remember in Ca. when I was briefly on Esgic, my doc just filled out a regular scrip & it was streated as uch..

[vettezr1]

Damn that's scary! I snowmobile up there and we would routinely burn back and forth
Bypassing the check out points, we even got chased once but they couldn’t hang with us eastern riders. Your point made me really think, if a bunch of buzzed out snowmobile
Riders can burn back and forth to Canada and the US. What would a really determined terrorist be able to accomplish? Thanks I will sleep much better tonight.

[dancinginthedark]

Hey, fear not.  After all, I'm here to protect us all!

I remember 25 yrs. ago in late high school, before a party, the guys had this routine where they would sneak through the border to get a "Keg" & even roll the damn thing back to our side.  The drinking age in Wa. was 21 as opposed to 19 here & we had our own bottled beer but to them, this was more fun than the party itself.  Of course they always succeeded & the biggest prob they encountered was getting lost in the woods.  

As you know, the border is 3000+ miles long & most of it is still unprotected, tho with today's technology, I imagine it's more difficult to sneak thru.  

Most frightening was Rassem, a middle eastern terrorist, happily residing in Cda, who passed thru the Blaine (Vcr to Sea) border  right before Dec 31/99.  He had enough explosives to blow not just LAX, his intended target, but most of Calif. as well.  Fortunately, he was caught & is still in jail awaiting trial.

If you want to get freaked out, worry about the Niagara border.  I saw this special on the US Coastguard & their patrolling the border, including Lake Erie which divides the countries.  I believe their stat for catching would-be crossers, was something like 10%. They admitted that with the lake it was virtually impossible to cover, let alone catch ppl.  Even after 9/11 most ppl illegally crossing in either direction are smuggling drugs, cigs & people.  And on the U.S. side, that particular border patrol is tremendously under-funded.  The feds were to come thru with $ but as of a few wks. ago, they had 1 fire-truck & dangerously short of police staff & other emerg. personnel.

Or, freak out over the border btwn El Paso & Juarez!  I wrote about that a few mos. ago & they have the Rio Grande dividing them & literally millions traveling back & forther per day.  Small wonder that mafia show, "Kingpin" is filmed in El Paso!

But you're so right about what a determined person can do.  They can get in thru any means.  On a recent news show, I saw INS agents explaining how most of the ppl endeavoring to enter the US for illicit reasons, do NOT go the familiar route at the airport.  So, all that shoe inspection is...well.  The INS said these ppl get in via other means tho they wouldn't say how.

The US/Cdn border is *much* less porous now but it's going to wreak havoc on the enormous amt. of trade btwn the 2 countries.  As far as I'm concerend, it's the price we must pay but I can't help wonder that when hostilities have ceased, will it ever stop?  I can't help thinking this war, inevitable tho it was, has opened Pandora's box.  Wide.

I have CNNOT on & poor Connie has no guests booked & looks downright bereft that she couldn't announce the outbreak of hostilities.  She even pulled out that old YAWN....Gen. Don Shephard. (Ret.)  Sorry, but he has all the personality of an unsalted triscuit.

Love to all my American buddies.  

Dancing......

[Kat49]

Well, I'm certainly glad that our thread is back - must have been that "fart in the desert" that temporarily rendered this nonexistent for awhile this evening!  Seriously, I'm more concerned with biological **** than anything!  Where I work is like the United Nations - if I told all of you, then you'd guess and my anonymity would be over. We will have the Nat'l Guard with those mega assault rifles hanging on them stationed everywhere from tomorrow until ........   We see TONS of Muslim customers (most of them very nice and the rest should be dismembered SLOWLY). They are from Libya, Iran, Iraq, etc. We also have Israelites and Palestinians side by side. It can get unreal! After 9/11 the place was on red alert because it's a high tension business to begin with and tempers fly at the drop of a hat if things aren't going their way. The Middle Easterners are the worst (by far) followed by the Russians. Those are not ones to mess with. According to my FBI & State Police informants, they're ALL "connected" to the Russian Mafia and make the Italian mob look like Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood! Bless his soul.  Anyhow, sorry to go on, but some of these people don't give a rat's ass about us, but continue to do business here (money laundering for sure) and treat us (women especially) like last week's tunafish salad on a hot July day!

Anybody who works with me would have no problem understanding why I take fiorinal! Hell, they bum it off me!!!!! I just hope we're ALL safe in the different parts of the country we live. And Joods, get the guest room ready - I'm coming up!  Kat

[enigma0301]

yes you both are right... i know it is a controlled substance... from when i lived in pa.... and its very controlled there... but in texas it is written as a regular script... and they have triplekets also here and f is not on texas's controlled substance list... i know it is in the us  but texas has alot of laws  of there own that are different than everywhere else in the us.... cus when i 1st got here and they said it wasnt that about blew me away... cus i know in  pa (which i lived there all my life till 3 years ago..)and everywhere else it is controlled.. and i also know it is a class 3 drug... believe me i learned along time ago everything there was to know on this damn drug i had to so i knew how to get it.... i didnt get it cus i had headaches at the time... i got them cus u could get high from them.....  and from taking the f so much over the years i have headaches now all the time....and the little town i live in the dr's will give u what want ever u want basicly as long as they are getting paid.. sad but true.. cus i know in pa its harder than **** to get anything...and for right now i can deal with the anxiety.. but if it does get to bad i will ask for valium or something like it... to help...and  as with my bipolar no i know it hasnt helped with the meds that i take cus i always have to stop them so theres no iteraction between the different drugs... but i take  all my meds now ... cus i wont be takeing the f anymore... and im very lucky that my wife  always is standing by me and that she is very supportive... and i thank u all cus when i read the threads   that to also helps me each day....

hope everyone is having a good day...
enigma0301

[mommyw3babies]

I have been reading your comments for quite some time (since your thread started in early fall last year) and I wanted to tell you that you have given me enormous strength and helped me more than you could realize.  I was up to 4/5 F per day and I am excited to say that through your advice (tapering) I am now down to 2/day.  This weekend I plan on going down to 1/day (scary...).  I have been taking Fioricet since I was 16 for migraines (I am 28 now).  I read all of your comments from your previous thread and I also took them eventually to feel more outgoing and confident at work and in social situations.  Then I would take them just to feel better...to change my mood?  I even wonder what my "real" personality is anymore.  I am terrified...what if my friends/husband, etc don't like the real me?  Crazy, huh?  

I could relate to everything that you have been saying.  These are things that no one can understand unless they have also been there.  I have three children under age 4 (2 are twins) and I have a full-time professional (and stressful!) career.  I had convinced myself that I could not survive without my little crutch...as you all put it, the boost effect that it provides (believe me with my life I need a lot of those).  It has just been part of my life for so long.  I read your stories of bravery and knew that I was headed down a path that would only get worse.  It has not been easy (to put it mildly)...but I am proud that I have made it to 2/day.  I wanted to tell you because I know that no one else in my life would understand what an accomplishment that is!  

I have been having so much trouble with mood swings/iritability and anexiety.  How long will it take for this to improve?  It is so hard with 3 little ones...I feel like I have no patience while going through this.

Thanks for listening and for being there.  I am so relieved to know that I am not alone and that I CAN do this.

[LinnieSue]

Hi and welcome to the forum......I started out just like you. Three kids as well(All grown now). I think it's great that you tapered but now I guess the real work starts. I took them for migraines and found a whole new personality. It got me through all kinds of things. I took them for so long that I don't know  if I can totally get off of them.
I know what you mean when you say you don't know who you are because I have no idea who I am. The good part is your still young and you know what can happen.
I am fifty......and having a very hard time tapering because I feel like I'm tapering my personality as well.
There is so many wonderful people on the forum. You can also join us at Drugabuse.com.....under the fiorinal thread.
Check it out and post and everyone will be there for you.
I bet your a better person without the drug......we all are.
                         Stay with us,
                            LinnieSue

[LinnieSue]

I also want to say .....having a full time job with three little ones is like having four jobs. It's no wonder you have anxiety. When we take a pill we become superwoman......we think. And we try to do everything. You have to ask for help. I never did...I used the pills instead.Big mistake.
I don't know you situation.....but maybe you could work part time or ask for help with the children. You can't do everything alone. I know because that's what I did and I burned myself out.
                                 Take Care,
                                    Linnie

[dancinginthedark]

Ladies!

I'm in cold turkey hell which is why I haven't replied to your posts.  Don't worry - I have plenty of neurontin in my system which is an anti-epileptic.  As per usual, I took (not) "as directed".  I CANNOT taper & I just finally got fed up & am going for it & we'll see what happens.

Only day 1 & I'm real nauseous...gotta go.  Linnie, I'm so glad you wrote & I will reply.  You & I are like 2 peas in a pod!

I promise to write later.  Wish me luck & yes, ladies, we can beat this.  Look at all you have accomplished in your lives, raising all those kids, working, etc.  Do you really think some stupid pills are stronger than you?  I know they are NOT.

Hugs & best wishes,

Judy

[LinnieSue]

Please be careful.......if you feel that badly maybe you could get a small amount of valium or zanax. It could take the edge off. I don't know how many you were taking but I do know what your going through. And there is always walk-in clinics if it gets too bad.Just make sure there is someone you can call.
Don't worry about posting .....just take care of yourself.

                                       Linda

[Kat49]

Judy - I just read your post and didn't know you were going to go CT!  For me, that's the only way and I don't even have neurontin! You'll be just fine, believe me. You know I've done this 4 times, 3 without ANYTHING to help me! I strongly believe valium helps tremendously and phenergan suppositories for nausea. And don't forget our "friend" Imitrex, because if you can keep anything down for at least 1 hr., then pop one of those to start working on the MOFO headache that will ensue. I never had any seizures except the 1st time 2 yrs. ago I told all of you I had little black "things" floating by that resembled hairs and I was always thinking my dog was shedding all over the floor and would try to pick them up! hahahah Now that I look back, I believe those were small seizures. My son's medical book on brain activity states that after a patient has brain surgery they can experience that exact thing for up to a year and they put them on Dilantin or anything like that. It's considered a seizure, but mild. When I read that, I nearly died! But, I only read that right before the 4th time I tried to quit - he had all his books at his apt. at school. I think if I knew at the time, it may have given me more incentive to not go back. But, this other post above about the grandpa who died of kidney failure due to fiorinal is something I always knew about and I never quit because of that either!

It has it's claws in all of us and that's why we've all formed such a strong bond. Like the mother of 3 above - WELCOME by the way - her using 2/day isn't a big deal in my book. But, some day she'll maybe need 5 because the kids are REALLY driving her nuts and then it starts all over again.

I hope you're feeling better today hon! It's day 2 and that's always one of my best. After puking all of day 1 (about 30 hrs. after the last pill) I feel like the Amtrak Express hit me and backed up and hit me again! But, I feel calmer and more in touch with everything. And lest not forget the MOFO headache - I will have that for approx. 3-4 days. So, hang in there my friend and we'll talk soon. Huggggsssss to you - Kat

[rodewc]

I know how you feel, Judy (Dancing).. Like Craaaaaaap.. So do I. It's day 1 and 1/2 here, and man it sux.. I thought maybe wine and a nice dinner but that holds no interest.. Only the puppy perks me up, she and her cat bros/sisses..

Anyway, I did have one Question as I was reading thru all this DEA stuff.. Does the DEA investigate what I consider "minor" addicts like we? I mean do they come after normal citizens who maybe used a cupla docs and pharmicies but did so w/ legit scripts? Thatz enuf to scare the beejeebies outta me.. on Top of trying to quit CT (when on toppa everything that damn puppy hound found 83 frickin' Vikes..)

And to think of alla those bezellion times I have torn the house apart for one spare pill just cause it twas too early to fill the script.

I too like F. and unfortunately have about 20 of those, for Migraines.

I swear, all this talk of DEA is enuf to give me a migraine, or mebbe I am Just lookin' for a reason to fall off the wagon I have barely gotten on. I am even afraid to take a Xanax for fear it will worsen the runs and weaken the willpower.

Chin up, Judy. We can do this?~

[dancinginthedark]

Hey, nice to hear from you on this less than delightful day.

OHMYHEAD!!!!!   Christ, ****.  

As far as getting in trouble with the DEA, I've read a lot about it here but don't personally know much about it.  As far as I know, you can only get in trouble for forging scrips, or calling in your own, pretending to be a doc.  

Since I don't know your transgressions but you say they were relatively minor, I wouldn't worry, or at least now while w/d.  I'm NOT an attorney but I believe the DA & cops gets more seriously bent out of shape over fraud, forging scrips, calling in, impersonating a doc's office.  Some ppl on this site have been busted for these crimes & charges were pressed.

Many ppl here are quite the doc shoppers - I know one woman who was getting F from 11 diff. docs & never got caught!  For the ppl who have been caught, they just get in trouble with their docc & usually cut off by all the others.

So, tell us what you're worried about & we'll try & set your mind at ease.  Believe me, ppl here have done *everything* imagineable & these are loving, honest, kind, family ppl.  The damn pills make us all crazy!

What are you detoxing from?  Opiates?  I quit codeine on Jan 20 but this F has such a hold on me I just beccame terrified it was going to kill me because I was starting to really binge on it.

It's pretty rough today but it helps to write here.  Pls excuse me for not sounding very eloquent.  I'm not in the best of shape!

Maybe we can talk each other thru this "long weekend".  Post back here if you want to chat.

Take care!

Judy

[sunshine6706]

What / Will  happen if i take 16 Fioricet in one day?