higher power vs. saboxone

[jjakki]

i am sponsoring an awsom lady in alcoholics/narcotics anonymous and she is on saboxone. im aprehensive to go to much further in the steps while she is relying on something besides her higher power.i would appreciate input from people that are familiar with the program.she says she isnt scared to stay dependant on saboxone, i would love to hear constructive feedback, this is a beutiful persons well being on the line.is the intent with saboxone to one day stop using it or is it life long maintinance. thank you for your feedback.

[worried878]

They started a group here for those who are on suboxone...it is an offshoot of NA....they talk and help each other...i went to one as a friend helped start it...I really dont like looking at this whole thing/this addiction thing that negatively...like my odds of recovery long term are probably dependent on a drug to keep me clean...i think it is great tool and i do agree some may need it for life...i just have to have a more positive outlook than that...not saying i wont have bumps here and there...but i refuse at this point to believe my chances of recovery long term are next to nil because i did not take sub...or that i am not on it for life...just wasnt in my plan so far...who knows what the future may bring...i never want to rule anything out...but i do believe that we all have a chance...a good fighting chance...with the mind God gave us
I have read and spoken with people on sub that after a certain amount of time...like a year or 2, the sub turns on u and makes u feel depressed just like the hydro did to me at the end...yucky feeling....everyone is different and not everyoneexperiences this...but for me i reached the point where the hydros did nothing except keep me from sweating..then they actually increased my clamminess/sweating and depression even when i took them all day long....they turned on me and i have talked to others this happened to on diferent narcs, not just hydros...the sub can turn on u too...gottaget ur life together...and use the morals and values and support we have...to stay clean...i do think sub is a great tool for many to get celan...i just dont like..and will not believe that my chances of staying clean are nil..or close to it without long term drug maintenance..that is just me...i never want to think that negative or i have lost all of my inner power to fight this

[GoingToMakeIt]

ANGEL!!!!! So good to see you!!!

[angel44240]

That is where the word 'substitution' comes in- we can't live with one or the other. Doctors and alot of other people don't realize that.. We cannot substitute one for the other. I don't think that Suboxone is a life-long remedy, but I do know that recovery is. :D

I sponsor 2 people and I do know this- newcomers are challenging, but rewarding! Recovery is a process, not an event, remember that one. Tonight, at my home group meeting, we talked about the 6th step- we have to be willing, that's all there is to it.

Keep up the good work, though.. you definitely came to the right place!

[LateAugust]

First let me say I applaud your efforts to help others, also many are too proud to ask others for advise in sensitve situations.  Unfortunately there are not many people willing to make the type of committment it takes to another person to be a sponsor, and I appreciate what you are doing.  I have a daughter that is an oxy addict,  and I have struggled so hard with the suboxone program alternative.  She is a pretty tough kid, and can get thru the physical withdrawals, unfortunately it seems she can go 2 or 3 weeks clean,  and as soon as she is feeling physically well,  she relapses.  The mental hold is absolutely incredible, and something I cannot even begin to comprehend.  She has after care with an addiction councelor and NA, but it seems an endless cycle.  Her psychiatrist is adamantly opposed to suboxone,  and she is basically on the fence, not a strong desire one way or another.  Yes I know she owns her sobriety, however while I am paying her medical bills, I do have some say in her treatment of what I will or will not pay for.....   I originally, after being with her 24X7 going thru the physical withdrawal, was in agreement that she not use suboxone.  But I am totally out of my element and had no idea that was the easy part.  So, do I try and talk her into Suboxone treatment,  or hope the relapses will become further and further apar?  I truly do not have a clue.

I did want to let you know that the NA mtgs. in our area, do not take such a strong stance against suboxone treatment, with the caveat it is a short time solution  for your long term goal of sobriety.

Again, thank you for your contribution and I hope you will find the answer to your question.  Perhaps someday we both will.  

Sincerely, Jeanette

[marcatj]

the fact she is taking the Suboxone says she is clearly wanting her sobriety...

some use it short term to come off, and to avoid withdrawals.  some use it a little longer (months) so they can gain the tools to live a clean life, and un-learn the things that helped add to their addiction in the first place. and that can take time.

and there's no "high" with Suboxone.

she IS sober, in my eyes. and should be commended for it....

good for you for asking though, and not just laying out judgement.  i've heard this happen before, and it very much saddens me.  i'm glad you came here and asked...

keep up the good work!!! and thank you for being one who helps others...

:)
mj

[corey411]

I started NA a little over 3 weeks ago. My DOC is qpiates and have not used since the day before my first meeting. I am perscribed Clonopin for panic attacks which I don't have a problem with abusing. I don't even take them everyday. When I mentioned this to my sponcer she told me in no uncertain terms that I HAVE to get off of them and onto antidepressants. She will not work with me on any steps until I do this. I'm encouraged to read the books myself but no help from my sponcer. I'm not allowed to count my time off opiates as cleantime bc of my anxiety meds. I'm in the process of trying to build up onto an antidepressant and not use my Clonopin but have great anxiety. I don't feel that this is in my best interest but seems to be what the program here supports and I guess NA has their right to run their program the way they think is best. I can just tell you that this was not in my best interest. Good luck. I wish you were my sponcer. You sound like you really care alot and the open-mindedness goes 2 ways. Corey

[Demandie]

You should do some research on Suboxone.  QUestion, are you an addict or just an alcoholic? Have you ever gone through opiate withdraw?
I am both an alcoholic and although I did not know it, an addict.  I got sober through God, AA, and the 12 steps.  After 2yrs of sobriety, I had a son, did not tell my dr. I was an alcoholic, and I got hooked on Vicodin.  My fault.  I knew what to do and didn't do it.  At any rate.  I NEVER understood an addict until I became one.  Please be very careful with this sponsee of yours.  Do not be judgemental.  I am a recovering addict and I am on Suboxone, and though it goes against everything I've ever learned in AA (any mind altering, mood altering drug......)  I truly understand the use of it and I get why people and why I myself take it.  You do not want to scare this person away from the program by being judgemtal.
I can tell you that if she's been on the Sub long enough, more than a week, that she is not in a "fog".  You should not deny her your knowledge and your experience, strength and hope of going through the steps just because she may be doing something that you do not approve of.  That would be going against everything you have been taught in the AA program. The point is, she's asked for help and for that, you are responsible.
Undoubtedly, sobriety will be much better for her(and me) once EVERYTHING is out of our systems, however, that is not the point.  
I so hope that you do not turn this person away.  What if you are the only "Big Book" that she's seen?  Is that what you want AA to say to her (and anyone she tells of her experience)?  THat she came to AA for help and the person she asked for help told her No?  That would be like going to church and them telling me that they could not help me because I was a sinner.
I'm surprised that one, sober for a while if sponsering,  would have to even ask the question.  Please pray about this before making this decision.
And just for the record, in my case, being on Suboxone has nothing to do with my faith in my higher power, but has everything to do with true physical PAIN. Uncomprehendible PAIN that you would NEVER understand unless you had felt it.  PAIN that makes you wish you could die.  PAIN that is NEVER ENDING for MONTHS.  Nothing, absolutely nothing like when I got sober from alcohol, and just so you know, when I got sober from alcohol, I had literally been drunk EVERY DAY for 12 years!! So it was no picnic either.
Also, how very judgemental of you to even say that she does not have a strong enough faith in a higher power.  Look at it this way, she had enough faith in you to ask you for help.  
I now am angered by your ignorance and your your condescending manner.  I truly will pray for you tonight and hope that you do a 10th step this evening and see where you may have gone wrong.
For myself, I've copiod and pasted this to my sponsor just to make sure that I will not owe you an ammends later--if I do, you'll hear from me when I get to step 9.

[Dog55]

I believe that suboxone can truly be an effective treatment for opioid dependency. It will never be for me, for a number of reasons (side effects, cost, etc.). However, for those who have tried everything and nothing has worked, don't feel this is a failure. I would look at it more like any other drug that is used for a chronic disease. One example: I take coumadin (a blood thinner) and other heart medications because of a condition I have. I will likely have to take them the rest of my life. I see no reason not to think of suboxone that way, as long as the above-stated issues don't affect you.

[toxictome]

I've been going to AA for 17 yrs. There is a woman there who was recently put on sub by her Dr...for pain control (she said) but she also kept relapsing at her 1 yr. mark. I think the purpose is 2-fold for her. However, I have no issues w/ one being on suboxone...as long as they are working a program and learning new tools to change their behavior. It's not really about how you get there...long as you get there...clean and sober..


LONESOME: For me, working some kind of a program on a daily basis is a must.
I have been going to AA  for 17 yrs.  I started taking vics for emotional pain after 14 1/2 yrs, but I never stopped going to AA while on the pills. I prefer AA over NA....just my personal preference. But I think it ABSOLUTELY helps me live clean and sober life.

[LONESOME]

I wanted to ask about the NA meeting and or AA meeting what do you all think do they help?

[GoingToMakeIt]

I think it is good that you are trying to understand suboxone. It enables individuals to function on a much more normal plane without all the extreme cravings that opiates can give.
Please continue working with this person. Recovery is a process that is ongoing.

[addictedme]

Are you a member,sponser in na or aa?

[worried878]

I was tapering off of hydros when i joined NA...I now go to AA as I am more comfy there...i was working in the right direction so i dont think anyone minded...they were very happy when i got my 24 hour clean keyring

[cathy5841]

WOW CATUF   your insights are awesome....thank you.

[CATUF]

I have found nothing in the Big Book or The Basic Text to suggest that my Recovery is, should or can be based only on reliance upon a Higher Power (“God”).  Developing and maintaining conscious contact with God impacts every area of my life, but it is primarily focused on the spiritual aspect of my being.

Prayer and meditation may go a long way toward providing what I need on the spiritual side, but they do little to address what I need in other areas of my life.  I have heard it said that “we are not human beings having a spiritual experience, we are spiritual beings having a human experience.”  As such, it seems to me that I must take care of my human-needs just as much as I take care of my spiritual-needs.

I might become some sort of spiritual warrior.  But because I am in the middle of a human experience, I will still need to allow time to take care of such mundane things as eating, drinking water, getting exercise, going to the doctor when I’m sick, taking the trash out, paying taxes, flushing the toilet . . . . and a million other things that, while they are no big deal, are an essential part of maintaining my human experience.

It seems to me that taking care of my human-side is a necessary condition precedent to taking care of my spiritual-side.  If I had held off on the God-Steps until I was finished with human-side concerns, I would have been holding off until I was dead.

For a long time it seemed like I wasn’t good enough or strong enough for God.  It seemed like I needed to show that I didn’t actually need God, that I could do okay on my own first, and THEN I’d be ready for all that conscious-contact/relationship stuff.  Basically, I was pretty sure that any God worth his weight would take one look at me and say “YOU ARE A DISGUSTING MESS!! GO AWAY AND DON’T COME BACK UNTIL YOU ARE BETTER.”  

I am now convinced that was just the voice of my addiction, doing what it always does -- steering me away from anything that can restore me and destroy it.  The voice of my addiction objects hard and loud to pretty much anything that’s good for me and/or bad for it.  Thinking that I couldn’t start something with God until I was better now seems like being ill but thinking that I shouldn’t go to the doctor until I was better.

The God of my understanding bears very little resemblance to the God I’ve heard about in church.  Still, there are passages in the Bible that speak strongly to me of God’s role in my recovery.  The one that screams most loudly at me is at Psalm 107:17-20:

Some became fools through their rebellious ways
and suffered affliction because of their iniquities.
They loathed all food
and drew near the gates of death.
Then they cried to the Lord in their trouble,
and he saved them from their distress.
He sent forth his word and healed them;
he rescued them from the grave.

Psalm 107 might have been written 3,000 years ago, but it describes exactly what happened to me.

As a practical matter, it seems to me that getting to work on the God-Steps would make for a smoother transition from Sub to Steps. When I drive my Jeep I get the best result by slowly releasing the clutch at the same time that I slowly depress the gas pedal.  If I just pop the clutch and then try to floor it, I find that I’ve stalled and have to start all over again.

CATUF
1114

[cathy5841]

i am really surprised by your question.  suboxone is a tool used in the recovery of an addict.  i totally agree with Jo Ann.  of course she should be allowed to continue.  it is m y inderstanding that sub is used to allow you to deal with the reasons you are an addict.  and i thought AA was all about dealing with the obstacles on your road to recovery.

[Rose703]

I believe the use of Sub is supposed to be temporary but I've met someone who's been on it now for 2 years!!

I'm very familar with AA and I believe you should continue to go through the steps with her because it sounds like she wants to remain clean and she deserves that chance without being judged due to Saboxone. I do believe in the higher power however I don't believe that should be her sole judgement when it comes to going through the steps and accomplishing them.

As you said she's an awesome woman and I believe that's where the judgement should lay.

I don't mean to be too candid with you but I do believe she deserves that chance even on Saboxone. Remember how they use to give meds to keep an alcholic from drinking? I don't see where this is any different,

[redrodeo]

IA, LOOKING for 3--4wweeks/
NOlonger thenn5wk.

[flmagi]

Suboxone should be concidered a temporary aid, although I guess I could understand someone useing it forever, if they can never resolve their addiction problem. Fact is, the odds of lasting recovery are not in our favor, with or without N/A or AA. I would rather see someone on Sub for life than dieing from opiate abuse.