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long term effects
by Nickmbb, Jan 13, 2003 12:00AM
For the past 6 year, I have been taking 8mg of valium everyday. Fot the past 2 years, I have been having a host of unexplained aches and pains through out my body. My PCP has stress tested me...had an egg done, cant find any reason for the strange aches and pains that seem to plaque my upper body. Someone told me that these may actually be withdraw from valium even though I'm still taking the drug. I asked my PCP about this and he sort of shoe-shoed the idea. He can't explain the pains, but does not think that 8mg of valium could of cause me to tolerrabce and withdraw. Any ideas? Is my PCP just covering his arse?
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Any ideas?
Thx,
Suzie
Suz
Sorry to hear you are having a tough time. I wonder if you have the flu? It sounds like it to me. But then again, i haven't been through withdrawals. Anyways to help with the nausea, i take Gravel. Here in Canada you can buy it without a prescription, but i don't know where you live and if you can do the same. Just take it easy, and it too shall pass.
I hope you feel better soon,
Catherine
Suzie
Thx to everyone for your suggestion!
I am so proud of you. You are actually doing it. I know you know i'm going to detox next weekend...by reading how you are doing it gives me strength, thanks for that! And keep up the good work. I will talk to you soon.
-Anthony
Everyone - I just want to let everyone know this wonderful woman has e-mailed me a couple of times in the past few days checking on me to see if I was OK. AND JUST NOW after reading her posts I realize how much she is suffering!!!! If this is not a class act, I don't know what is.
My love and prayers to everyone - recovering, struggling and those still using. We all have to believe that there will be a light at the end of the tunnel. Just being here is admitting we acknowledge our problem and wanting to do better. It's a huge step, in my opinion. Love/Peace, Lisabet
Does WD suck or what. I absolutly hate WD with such a passion. I wish I could just pick up my glock,then shoot it and kill the *******. The amazing thing is how I have volenteered for the WD. I hope your feeling better. Did you get my E mail?
Strength and Honor
Greg
I wish i could give you all at least one big hug!
Suzie
Elvis27
ps - did I post in the right place?
teeitup!
good luck!
P.S. what's up with the Elvis thing? Your not projecting are you? I mean you do know he died on the toilet Right? Just checking!
Elvis
Yes, theyre called threads.
And congrats on your 3rd day clean! You are on your way up by now or tommorow.. the worst should be past!
It only gets better. Day 12 for me off a heavy morhpine habit and I feel great (not as great as before I got addicted, but getting there).
Keep on track and keep posting, we're all here to help each other. This board is what finally motivated me to quit. Dont worry about rambling or anything, just post a message.. it helps when youre on the edge of relapsing or cant sleep or whatever.
Keep it up! We are all on your side and we've (most of us) been right where you are now. Yes it sucks a bit but down the road your smile will be from ear to ear knowing you kicked those pills out of your life :)
God Bless
DM
Heh, liked the comment about the Glock and shooting the pills. Might do a little target practive with the Styre AUG and blow a few of my old pill bottles away this weekend. Im already smiling at the thought :) Heh, 5.56 NATO rounds against little pills.. wonder if any pieces will be left for the wild life.. hope not.
God Bless
DM
Then I am taking my Winchester Defender 12 gauge and going to stand about 10 feet from the targets (calenders) and blow that year to hell, where it belongs.
Now that you metion it a few empty pill bottles might be theraputic too. I have got 38 days off the pills and finally just starting to feel human again. I have always read your posts and thanks, you were a big help in the painful early phases of WD.
Strebgth and Honor
Greg
If you haven't been here for months, who has been posting for the last few weeks using your user name? Spooky.
It is me...Suzie is real! No doubt.
I am still quite nauseated and last night i was going nuts on the prowl for my old stadol! It was ok though coudl not find any! I got some menthol nasal spray to give me the burn and now i am better. I can't even smoke but a few puffs without getting sick to my tummy. I prolly was having nicotine withdrawal too! Geez.
thx people!
Suzie
Take out a few 2002 calendars for me, will ya?
Rex
For me, I had to go cold turkey - there is no middle ground for me. Zero is my magic number.
Rex
Jen
I pray that whatever strength you need, God will provide, and that we here can be of some motivation to you.
Yes, this hell what we are going through. But as long as you keep coming back, it means that you are determined!
Please continue to be good to yourselves and give others here encouragement. There are days when I need that so bad I cannot even tell you what it means...
Love to all,
Rex
I'm done with the tests for the time being...they found a "growth" in my esophagus. Did biopsies to check for cancer etc.
Feel pretty lousy today. The flu I think. Feels like I did when I had withdrawls though. Is that possible 150 or so days later?
Anyways...I aksed the GI doc about your concerns & she agreed with me regarding diet & the discontinued use of motrin, relafen etc. This stuff hurts so I hope you can catch in time...sounds as though you can. I'll pray for that.
MrsRat,
Thanks for your concern & kind words. It means a lot to me to come here & get support...dor whatever the problem.
Thanks to ALL!!!
FINISHED!!
Please email me sometime at ***@****. If you are going to any local so cal events regarding racing, I would love to get together and see you.
I know you will come through all of this.
You know, I get these "down feelings" sometimes, like now. I have this cold that everyone on the planet seems to have gotten - the thing just won't die! But am I inccorectly associating it with withdrawels? I think I am.
Its just that when I used to get sick I didn't feel depressed - just sick. Now I feel sick and down.
I don't know, but I hate it. Hope you feel better and if it that you are just sick with the flu, time is on your side.
Rex
Sharon
Jen
Congrats to you.
Erika
Elvis
Rex ty for all your kind words hon. I pray that your plight will be easier and more inspired to llive life to the fullest every day.
Suzie hugs ya!
Rex
J.E.W. - Sounds like you're doing great - good for you!
For you both: have you tried Thomas' recipe? It really takes the edge off those irritating WD symptoms.
Love/Peace, Lisabet
I am one of those nurturing souls and it helps me to offer help. So that too is selfish!
Peace, hugs, love!
Suzie
I feel a little scared,
Jason
How come no-one's talking about "LONG TERM EFFECTS" and how it AFFECTS you? (lol)
THIS FORUM SAYS "LONG TERM EFFECTS" at the top.
I wanna talk about long term effects, but it seems like everyone
who succesfuly stops, ALSO STOPS COMING TO THIS WEB SITE!
I'm guessing that this is the case because this "long term" forum
seems to be full of people that are talking about being on their
3rd to 30th day of detox.
There are 3 detoxes that are going on, mental, physical and neurolical.
I mentally detoxed when I finally "loved" or rather be doing something else, "I fell out of love with it".
I physically detoxed at around 60 days. "the sh$%s outta my system". Including all metabolites and antitoxin quota my body
learned to make.
Neurologically I am still devastated.
The FDA just recently approved a new type of rapid detox that
they had to pass as a "Package License", which is what happens
when big business gets a new drug through.
The "packaging" can be simply that it comes in two parts, such
as a single prescription that you're required to take two types
of medicines together or it doesn't work, so it all comes in one
box, or in this case they're allowing this new "gene altering"
therapy to be used "as long as they also sell you a detox
program", usualy in-patient. So if you're already detoxed
it's hard to get them to just give you the gene altering meds.
Personally I used buprinorphine sublingual from mexico before the FDA passed the use of buprinex injectable for the WDs.
"Subutex" (the sublingual form) has also passed FDA but is not
being stocked yet by the Rx industry. It is available in Mex
as "Temgesic" and costs about $30-$40 per day to RAPID DETOX
yourself. All you have to do is western union about $400-$600
to your favorite mexican pharmacy on the border and they'll send a runner across. Recieving it is legal as long as you tell
your doctor what you're doing and they agree to "supervise".
"You are taking the drug under supervision of a US Doctor"
As soon as the Rx's have it on the shelf though, then it
becomes less legal to import because they don't want to lose
money.
Right now your doctor CAN prescribe buprinex injectable (IM or
Subcutaneously), but you gotta convince em you know what you're
doing, they don't want to be the ones to "introduce" needles to
you if you haven't already. They come in a vial, strength equal
to 1 1/2 tablets of the sublingual form, but 5 times as effective. I took 4 tabs a day when I used "temgesic"(called "subutex" in USA rx), and one shot a day on buprinex. Buprinex is very affordable, at about $5 a shot, compared with the tablet it's
way cheap. Most expert WD doctors are now willing to let you
try it so don't harp on the mexican rx thing, you don't need to.
For those of you that have never tried it,
IT'S LIKE NOT DETOXING AT ALL!
Except for some very annoying insomnia AFTERWARDS, which my doctor treated initialy with ambien, which worked great but has wd's of it's own, that begin just "by not increasing the dose",
so abien's bad.
Temazapam, a cousin of vallum, does not build much more than an initial tolerance, and few wd's. I was actually fully detoxed
from everything (including withdrawal meds) finally after 9
months. BUT MY BRAIN NEVER RECOVERED. I suffer STILL, from
shakes, spasms, shiiiivvvvers, and mental awkwardness.
That's why I got really interested in this "gene tharapy" thing.
I was convinced that my "receptors" are shot, and along comes
this news brief about the FDA passed a new "gene therapy" for
use "conjunct with rapid detox" where they showed someones
P.E.T. SCAN (positron emmision tomography) of someones normal
brain, someone's brain that was in detox, and their brain after.
Then they show the same "bad" brain after "neuro-re-adaptation"
using this new technique.
SINCE they discovered that YOU NEVER RECOVER YOUR BRAIN ACTIVITY!,
they decided to figure out which "genes" in your brain cells that
you have left(lol),
(which don't regenerate, and never die unless you kill them
of course)
actually get altered by "neuro adaptation" (or "addiction"). Then they introduce some chemical that "deletes or adds a piece of DNA" from your brain cells, and
the living neurons (brain cells), get altered back to the
way they were before neuro adaptation to all the drugs you took.
It can be addative, so all the drugs you've EVER been hooked on,
caused changes to the DNA in YOUR opiate-receptor cells, among
many other receptors!
The thought of being able to "RESET YOUR BRAIN" is awesome.
Don't get discouraged about my still having symptoms after
9 months, either it's rare, or it goes un-noticed, or I'm
a hypocondriac, or it could be in my head.
Firstly, the delay in getting Buprenorphine here is ridiculous....
I read the transcript of an interview between Bill Moyers and Dr. Steve Hyman(studies addiction and directs the national institute of mental health).
One of Moyers' questions was: "So even though drugs have changed the brain, it can be changed back?"
Hymans' Answer : " I don't think that you can have your brain back just the way it was, but I certainly believe recovery is possible. There are some changes in your brain that may be irreversible, especially the kinds of emotional memories that we talked about, they may really be indelible. But people who have a stroke are able to recover by using other parts of their brain which weren't affected. It seems extreme, but you might think of someone who is addicted almost as if they've had a peculiar kind of stroke, which affects their motivation and self-will."
So with the above in mind, I'd love to read more about this gene-altering procedure.....
Percs
(by the way, I'm in my 6th month off percs(ie. "longer term"), and feeling pretty good)
God Bless
wannastop
CITA Biomedical inc. is a "penny stock" currently at $.0025$/share, but once was at about $.012. It's a good time to buy
it I imagine, but I'm no stock broker. The "ticker" is "DETOX"
on the stock market.
The company is not answering a lot of questions about the gene
therapy though, since it's a packaged deal with the detox.
I so want to do it, but it could be a hoax to get the stock to come up! (woodsuck..woodsuck)
Here you go,...
This is an excerpt of an older study that led to the current
art.
By the way I'm able to get "Buprenex Injectable", any day of
the week at my local Rx. Are you talking about "Subutex", the
U.S. version of the sub-lingual tablet that's called "temgesic"
in mexico??
Anyways the "rapid detox" has been around a while and without
exception buprinorphine is the state of the art, many detox
centers including CITA use it for the detox portion of the treatment. It does take affect within hours and seems
miraculus, so it would be hard to distinguish a clinic
simply using buprenex, and one using it AND gene therapy
to make the change PERMANENT.
It's the "neuro-adaptation" (or re-adaptation) that
"resets" your neuro-receptors, and it is this part that is
heavily licensed, but a lot of clinics are boasting that they
use it when all they do is the buprinorphine and no real
"gene therapy" treatment.
It seems like it would be prime for suckering rich addicts
for 8 grand, and then not even delivering the goods.
I honestly believe CITA has the goods, but how would you
make sure they weren't just giving you some cocktail?
The bottom line is the PET or SPECT (single photon electron
computerized tomography) scan will show a before and after.
But then how do you know it's YOUR PET scan?
I guess I've just become too paranoid and untrusting, if
I could get the procedure then I wouldn't be as paranoid,
then maybe I'd let them do the procedure, but then I wouln't
need it, but then what if it didn't work?(lol)
I'm not sure but I think what they give you is
"GDNF antisense oligoneucleotide ", but there are probably
a half dozen that have been passed.
It's also possible that they inject you with hydrogen peroxide
saturated with nitrous oxide,
if you read the excerpt about what they did to rats in the
animal tests.
They even say below, in "hidden" nerd language,
"pre-treatment with L-N-nitric arginine methylester(10mg/kg)" that they gave the rats an equivilent of you or I injecting 3/4 gram of pure cocaine, chronically, then re-adapted them.
So the same stuff must be used for blow as for opiates.
(arginine methylester is synthetic cocaine)
AKA "ecgonine methyl ester"
CITA is in Beverly Hills, but they have offices in
hospitals around the country.
________________________________________________________________
"[The expression of glial cell derived neurotrophic factor and its receptor GDNFR-alpha and GDNFR-beta mRNA in spinal cord, brainstem and frontal cortex during morphine withdrawal in rats]
Zhou W, Liu H, Xie X.
Ningbo Institute of Microcirculation & Henbane, Ningbo Drug Addiction Research and Treatment Center, Ningbo 315010, China.
OBJECTIVE: To investigate the expression of glial cell derived neurotrophic factor (GDNF) and its receptor GDNFR-alpha (GFRalpha-1) and GDNFR-beta (Ret) genes and the effects of muscarinic receptor antagonists, NMDA receptor antagonist, inhibitor of nitric oxide synthase on the expression of these genes in the spinal cord, brainstem and frontal cortex during morphine withdrawal, and to observe the effects of GDNF antisense oligoneucleotide (i.c.v) on the morphine withdrawal symptoms in rats. METHODS: The levels of GDNF, GDNFR-alpha and GDNFR-beta mRNA were assayed by reverse transcription polymerase chain reaction (RT-PCR) with the beta-actin mRNA as an internal control. RESULTS: The GDNF mRNA levels were increased, and GDNFR-alpha and GDNFR-beta mRNA levels was slightly increased in the spinal cord and brainstem during morphine dependence. These genes were decreased at 1 h, increased at 2 h after administration of naloxone in morphine dependent rats. While the GDNF, GDNFR-alpha and GDNFR-beta levels in the frontal cortex were increased significantly at 1, 2 and 4 h after the injection of naloxone during morphine withdrawal. The pre-treatment with L-N-nitric arginine methylester (10 mg/kg), the expressions of GDNF and GDNFR-beta in the spinal cord, both GDNFR-alpha and GDNFR-beta in the frontal cortex were decreased. The expressions of both GDNF and GDNFR-alpha in the frontal cortex were decreased by treatment with MK801 (0.5 mg/kg), and the expressions of GDNF in both the stem and cortex, and GDNFR-beta in the brainstem decreased by treatment with the methyl-scopolamine (0.5 mg/kg). The beta-actin mRNA levels were not different in each group. Moreover, the morphine withdrawal symptoms were attenuated by intracerebroven tricular injection of GDNF antisense oligoneucleotide in 6 hour and 24 hour before naloxone administration in morphine dependent rats. CONCLUSION: The results not only provide direct evidence that the expressions of GDNF and its receptors mRNA in glial cells play an important role in mediating the process of morphine dependence and may be account for the long-term neuro-adaptation associated with morphine dependence, but also suggest that muscarinic receptor, NMDA receptor and nitric oxide pathways may be involved in the expression of GDNF and GDNF receptor genes during morphine withdrawal.
PMID: 11798749 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]"
I was on 6 to 8 hydro 7.5s, plus 3 or 4 oxy's each day,
for 12-13 months.
There was a point for the first month without,
that I would have paid 8 grand for just the RD.
I'm sure many movie stars went for it repeatedly,
and are continuing but once they get the gene therapy
they'll be surprized to find out they don't want
the drugs anymore.
Do you think people like that will avoid the re-adaptive
treatment and just opt for the Rapid Detox?
Not if they love their mom.
As a matter of course, stars can do crack and heroin
right up till the day before shooting a film now,
go through RD and show up sober on the set.
That's probably why the first place to do it, and the
first local society to be able to afford it, are
in Beverly Hills.
I was on oxycodone(percocet) for more than 5 years, but very steady for 3-4 years, at varying levels between 60-90mgs. Near the end, i was switching back and forth from oxycodone(percs) and hydroMORPHONE(dilaudid,K-4's). I tapered, starting August 6th and had my last pill Aug. 19th(Way to rapid, as I w/d heavy throughout)
I have to tell you honestly, I FEEL SURPRISINGLY WELL.
Percs
(let me sift thru this, before I make any more comments)
Sorry, don't know the effects of opiates on the heart.
Certainly, blood pressure can shoot through the roof with stopping opiates.....
Take Care
ps
I haven't read anything on the addiction sites I frequent about that one.
It is strange that you have shakes, shiivers,and mental akwardness(Don't we all have this...), after being on a dramatically lower doseage and duration than myself....as I don't have any of that( I honestly feel real well); However I continually am bothered by the fact that we can't have our brain back exactly as it was prior to bombardment of opiates.
The technical part of this discussion is way beyond my knowledge, but I will continue to read and follow it, with great interest....as the ramifications are HUGE.
percs
you only detoxed with Bup. right? (ie. you are not on it still)
I am 18 years old. I have been on and off for about 4 years now. In 9th grade I got a pneumothorax (collapsed lung). While I was in the hospital, I was given - Morphine and Demerol. When I left they prescribed me to Percoset - I call them "512's" - I had about 60 in total.
Since then a lot has happened. I am worried. I am really trying to come to terms with myself. Thats why I am online, this is my first post ever.
"A lot has happened" -- I need to escape.
I've used, Morphine Sulfate, Heroin, Oxycontin, Hydrocodone, Fentinol, Percoset, Vicodin, Codeine -- To name a few -- Who cares at this point -- Anyway.
It is my senior year in high school. I am doing everything I can do to pay attention in class. I am trying to work hard in school.
I dont really feel here. It is really terrible. I've never talked about this with anyone "really" who understands.
Been clean 3-4 months (from H)
2 - weeks, Percoset Hydrocodone.
I am working on it.
I do not feel here. I feel distant.
Rex
Emotional pain, yes. Huge family issues -
My familiy says to me when i'm "gone" -- You look great today!
When I am trying to clean up -- Whats wrong ?! Are you doing drugs? Soking marijuana?
(By the way - I've never used any other drugs but Narcotics)
Im trying ...
Please, get off the narcotics before they get a strong grip on you. Then you will have amajor problem on your hands.
Look over the archives here, and ask someone close to you for help.
And pray to God in heaven as well.
God's Grace to you...
Rex