lortab

[Jim]

I've been taking lortab 7.5 for about 3 months. About 8-10 per day. I think I'm going to have to go cold turkey to stop. Will my symptoms be really bad and how long will they last. I'm hoping not too long since i've been taking for so short a time.
Thanks!

[tom with apologies to jim for hijacking]

people who follow my misadventures on this forum know I just loused up my job at a good software company because I was at a doctor's office getting what makes tommy run instead of at a meeting discussing, no doubt, subjects just bristling with gravitas.

Well, I got all but canned (a skill I've picked up over the years), but it was close enough to well and truly disgracing myself in front of my peers that I decided to call in sick today and make a few calls.

It's two in the afternoon, I've got a new, killer job in my back pocket and I'm howl'n at the moon with Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers blasting "won't last long" at a lath-and-plaster-loosening volume, spinning like a top. Ahhh yes! This is what it was like to be young. I'd almost forgotten. Well, gotta go turn the volume up a little more, so I'll talk to ya again soon. Just wanted to tell someone that life, even for an f-up'd, opiate swilling misfit like myself can still have it's sweet moments. Sing on Tom!!!

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

There's nothing better than amping up the volume and partying till the pictures fall off the wall!  We can still have fun and enjoy life as we are meant to.  I'm happy to hear about your new opportunity and hoping it pans out to new vistas.  For me, the best times on the job were the first and last day!  The days in between were just BS as usual.  Take care, my friend, and God be with you.  May the wind at your back not be your own!  J.B.

[tom to Jim]

well, first of all, make sure you've got a lot of Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers on hand ... ah, sorry, jim, I'm just ready to bust from delight at how my own lortab-inspired fall from grace has ended in the kind of happy ending you only fantasize about when the old Lortabs cross the good ole blood-brain barrier and tickle those lovely opiate receptors we're all born with...

But, hell --- I really do want to answer your question -- this site only accepts one new thread per day so we're all practiced at hijacking threads to get our own messages into the forum -- nothing personal and no disrespect intended. But Damn! The Heartbreakers are sound'n so gooood right now.


OK, about your lortab situation. I'm not a doctor but someone who will be even more useful to you -- an rx opiate addict of thirty years and counting. I've copped, used and cold turkey'd them all and I can and will tell you more than the doctor will about what's coming.

I assume you've tried tapering with the usual results - harder than hell, isn't it?

The great good news, my friend, is that you're barely using above the prescribed dosages and frequency of those mythical creatures know as "normies" in AA/NA meetings. Lucky *******! I once kicked a 75 Vicodin per day habit (yes, I mean seventy-five pills per day) lying on the concrete floor of the Orange County jail intake unit. Just thought I'd add a little perspective for whatever it's worth.

Here's the deal. You're withdrawal symptoms will start making themselves known in about 10 to 12 hours. You'll ache, especially in the thigh muscles but, really, you'll start hurting everywhere. You'll feel like you just can't concentrate or sit still. You'll start feeling some anxiety - just an overall feeling of blunted panic, I guess you could say. Now - very important - before you allow yourself to get into withdrawal, go the supermarket and buy a 24-pill supply of brand-name Imodium (immodium) anti-diarrhea tabs. Get the brand name. They're more potent, no matter what anyone says. Keep them close to you. At the first twinge of the runs, even just a hint or a growling sound from your diaphragm area - take two Imodium (immodium) at once. Just chuck 'em. Don't wait til you're drizzling green goo into the bowel, which, by the way, will burn your ass something awful. So, anyway, use the Imodium (immodium) aggressively. If the feeling comes back, hit it with two more - no half measures. Use the full dose each time you use them.

Do you have access to some valium or Xanax or Librium or Klonopin? These are benzos that will help immensely with the anxiety. If you've got them. I recommend using a strong, sleep-inducing dose the first day of your withdrawal and then tapering the dose down gradually to nothing in about 4 days - that's about how long your withdrawal will be upon you. Of course, with some, it lasts even longer. Anyway, if you don't have any Valium, go to the health food store and buy some Valerian Root extract pills. They have a distinctly valium-like calming effect that will let you get some sleep.

Now, the muscle aches will get worse as you go into day two. If you have a Jacuzzi, live in the thing! Or if not, take lots of hot baths to soak those leg muscles as often  as possible. It's about the only thing that helps, but it's very effective and will let you get to where you can relax on the couch or bed and watch some good flicks. Have a hot bath or Jacuzzi revved up all the time and use it every time those muscle aches come back. They're a real *****, believe me, but will subside in about four days or say.

Need I say don't -DON'T- try to self medicate your way around withdrawal with alcohol or sleeping pills like seconol or phenobarb. Forget alcohol altogether. That means beers, too. Alcohol will undue your whole detox if you let it.

Take lots of short walks. Nothing strenuous, just get out of the house and walk and think. Take a Walkman with you with some energizer tunes or even some mellow stuff. Preferably not the music you got high too. It acts too much like a trigger.

Now, if you can, and I'm hoping you can, schedule this detox so that at least the first few days are on a weekend. Retie from the world for a few days. It's best that way fro you and he people around you.

Eat all you want, whatever suits your fancy. If you're using the Valiums or one of those other benzos I mentioned, they'll make you eat like a pig. This is good. Also, take some good vitamins every day. Be aggressive about it. Also, while at the health food store, get some Milk Thistle capsules. The liver is one of the few organs in the human body that, with a little cooperation from you, will repair itself. See, all the Tylenol in the Lortabs has already taken a toll that needs to be addressed if you're to fully recover. The Milk Thistle will help this healing process along.

Now, what am I forgetting … Oh yeah, and it's a big Oh yeah - cravings, that is, the psychological compulsion telling you to hell with this detox and just chuck a Lortab and everything will be cool again. The Valiam or Xanax or Valerian Root is good for minimizing the cravings. So is exercise, especially aerobic exercise like jogging, bikings, step mastering, fast walks, lap swimming. These exercises encourage your brain to produce endorphins, which are the substances that your brain is thinking the hydrocodone in your lortab are.

A large part of withdrawal stems from the fact that your brain has stopped making natural endorphins because it's noticed that you've found an outside source for them. The brain is constantly trying to keep it's "brain soup" in balance and will do things like stop making endorphins in order to compensate for all these ersatz endorphins you're giving it. Trouble is, the brain can't tell the difference. Then, suddenly, you cut off it's source for these endorphins and the reaction to not having them is what withdrawal is all about. It will take time for your brain to start making its own again, but it will. The human brain is the coolest organic "device" god has thought of  - so far, anyway. Trust it. You might feel a little listless and clumsy for a while, but it will pass and you'll be OK.

Now, Jim, I've given you the practical tips on coping with detox and withdrawal. But you haven't told us why you started taking them in the first place. The core motivation for using is crucial. If we're talking about recovering from, say, a back problem, and that you just no longer have the pain to justify the lortabs, well, my man, you're home free. You're done. You're a "normy" for god's sake. Do what I've outlined in this post and you'll be happy and whole.

But if your pain stopped a long timer ago and jim has been taking the Lortabs just for fun, then you could benefit from going to some AA or NA meetings to learn about why you still want to take these pills.

But, I'm guessing you're a straight arrow and don't need counseling. If I'm wrong, detox like I told you to and make some connections with a great bunch of warm, non-judgmental folks that can help see you through this.

Well, that's it, Jim. Live long and prosper.

[Dreaming87]

Well, that sounded about right.  I have read and posted here a few times.  I do have a question which anyone is welcome to respond:  If like me, the only way to have a good time is to get a buzz (for 15 years) how do you get your mind to go along with the fact that this is not all there is?????? No matter what I do, I still WANT the buzz.

[tom hijacking thread for buprenorphine n]

I don't know, my friends, this could be it. Read and tell me what you think it means:


The U.S. House of Representatives overwhelmingly approved legislation that would - for the first time since the passage of the Harrison Narcotics Act of 1914 - allow general practitioners to maintain an opiate-dependent patient on a narcotic, in this case a Schedule IV or V anti-addiction drug. The legislation, H.R. 2634, was approved 412 - 1, with only Rep. Mark Sanford(R-SC) voting against the measure.
The sponsor of the bill, Rep. Tom Bailey(R-VA), is particularly interested in allowing physicians to prescribe buprenorphine, a Schedule V drug developed to treat heroin addiction by suppressing craving for the drug, but the legislation would allow doctors to prescribe any Schedule IV and V drugs approved by the FDA for use in drug maintenance or detoxification.

In order to prescribe such drugs doctors would have to be licensed under state law, demonstrate the training and experience to treat drug addicts, and exhibit the capacity to refer patients to counseling and other ancillary services. In addition they could not treat more than 20 people in an office setting at once unless the Secretary of Health and Human Services changed the guidelines. Senator Orin Hatch (R-UT) introduced a similar bill, S. 324, in the Senate last year.
The language of that bill was incorporated in S.486, the Met amphetamine Anti-Proliferation Act of 1999, which passed the Senate earlier this year. Since the buprenorphine provisions passed the Senate as part of S. 486, the Senate will not consider stand-alone buprenorphine legislation, such as S. 324.
The House Judiciary Committee, however, recently approved the House version of the Methamphetamine Anti-Proliferation Act, H.R.2987, and that bill also contains the buprenorphine legislation. The full House is expected to approve H.R. 2987 sometime in September, after which time House and Senate members will then reconcile differences between each bill and produce a final bill acceptable to both Houses. The final bill is expected to still contain provisions allowing doctors to prescribe Schedule IV and V anti-addiction drugs like buprenorphine.
However, buprenorphine has not yet been approved by the FDA for addiction treatment, and doctors will not be able to prescribe the drug until it is approved. The FDA is currently considering approval for Suboxone, a combination pill made up of buprenorphine and naloxone.
While buprenorphine reducesthe craving for opiates and blocks withdrawalpains, naloxone sends users into severe painif they take heroin or other opiates while onSuboxone or if they crush the pill into apowder, add a liquid and inject it in an attemptto get high. Proponents of mixing buprenorphine withnaxolone say that it is necessary to ensure thatusers don't misuse buprenorphine or takeillegal drugs while they're receiving theirtreatment.
Critics on the other hand chargethat after the first time a patient falls back intothe habit of taking heroin and suffers theterrible pain from naxolone, the user will be putin the position of continuing drug treatmentwith the imposition of severe pain anytime they make a mistake or staying out of drugtreatment all together. Many addicts maychoose to stay off Suboxone all together.Opponents of adding naxolone also point outthat in countries where buprenorphine hasproven to be successful in treating addicts ithas not been combined with naxolone.Even without naxolone however,buprenorphine has its limits as an addiction-fighting drug. While buprenorphine has proven successful in helping casual usersor mild addicts in forgoing their habits, it has not yet proven successful in treating many heavily-dependent addicts. In the rush to make buprenorphine easily available, many fear that methadone, a more effective drug for treating heroin addiction (but one that is, with very few exceptions, available only in special clinics), will end up becoming even less available to those that need it. Many arm-reduction advocates worry that Congress, by approving prescription buprenorphine, will feel that they have done all that is necessary to fight heroin addiction, and that the expansion of methadone treatment and the easing of access to the drug will not move forward. Others feel that prescription buprenorphine is a first step to getting Congress to approve legislation that would allow doctors to prescribe any anti-addictiondrug to their patients, including methadone.

http://www.november.org/20016.html

please god, let this be the one that sets us free!

[To Tom and rest of forum from Maryanne]

AMEN TOM!  Everything you said to Jim regarding getting of the lortab was right on the money!  Jim, you can trust Tom, he knows what he's talking about - we all do.  And by the way Tom, thanks for the bup for pain idea.  I have a doc who will give me what I need and this sounds like a good idea.  Now, I think I need meetings to deal with the fact that I want to not only get rid of the pain but FEEL GOOD.  I just need to get my ass on the treadmill for 45 minutes a day and that should take care of that!  lol....anyway, thanks for your support and advice as always!  Take care and god bless, Maryanne
PS  I didn't read your thread immediately above about the bup but will now - I was responding to your response below under "shooting"  THANKS!  :)  :)   and  CONGRATS on the new job offer - I know you well enough to know that whom ever hires you is getting something good!

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

The "buzz" has been my downfall as well.  For some reason I feel completely normal when I'm buzzed.  The best part of the buzz is the initial rush.  It's got to be a sexual thing like a prolonged orgasm.  Maybe it's a fetish for some of us opiate addicts.    

When I drank alcohol, I liked the initial jolt that it provided but I sure got myself into a lot of trouble because booze makes me very aggressive and stupid.

The only thing that works for me is complete abstinance from all drugs and working a program like AA and hanging out with sober people.  It takes time but you will someday get a natural buzz that you will be proud of!  J.B.

[To Tom and rest of forum from Maryanne]

Jim, Tom is right on the money regarding what to do/expect with the withdrawal.  Listen to him as he knows what he is talking about - we all do.  Most importantly, understand that you are not alone and it is possible to beat this thing!  Tom, congrats on your new job offer!  I feel like I know you well enough to say that they are lucky to be getting you as an employee!  Thanks for the suggestion about the bup for pain - never thought of that and I will certainly ask my doctor to prescribe it.  He may not know what it is so I think I will print out some literature on it and take it to my next appointment.  Your above thread about the bup and legislation sounds VERY promising - I don't think it will "interfere" with methadone - The war on drugs is ON and anything we can do to win should be considered!  Thank you so much for all your support Tom, I am truly grateful to have met you and everyone on this forum for that matter...Cindi, I lost your email address so maybe you can email me so I have it (***@****) - I would love to talk to you about some nursing stuff!  Take care everyone and God Bless....Maryanne
PS - JB, I was sorry to hear you are waiting for a liver transplant, you and Marty are already in my prayers and will continue to be!

[To Tom and rest of forum from Maryanne]

Well guys, don't laugh!!  I did it again.  Lost my response and tried to remember and resubmit - God, how many times will I do it?  lol....

[Brighty to MaryAnn]

Hi... sorry to change the topic... I have not been online forawhile... just the last 3 days.. so I missed alot of your progress and how the treatment went with Doc LG. How long did you take the bup for withdrawl ? What other meds did you get for that and are you still on something for maintenance either short or long term ? Did you get a pellet put in too ?? How was the experience and how many times over what time period did you visit the doctor ? How are you doing ??????? Someone e-mailed me and has a nephew with a problem, pain pills, what else ?? So I am wondering if you can share this ? I am very sorry to make you repeat yourself but I think I missed alot and you know how it is trying to find old threads here !!! Congratulations on your success. Love, Brighty

[To Tom and rest of forum from Maryanne]

Hi, no problem and glad to help.  I went to the Dr's office ONE TIME.  I made the appointment and went in.  They took my blood pressure, pulse and asked some questions (what I was taking, how much and how long).  I was taking lorcet and percocet and oxycontin by the way.  anywhere from 4 pills to 10 (sometimes more) per day.  I told them everything.  I also gave a fake name and no social security number because I didn't want "opiate addict" on my record.  I became addicted after a car accident/surgery with chronic pain taking them from a legit script and as we all know that once "addict" is on your record, it doesn't matter.  I was in the office for like 20 minutes and given 3 buprenorphine injections and 2 prescriptions (one clonidine - antihypertensive; the other baclofen - muscle relaxer).  I was told "No opiates after midnight and take the first injection in the am as a "wake up call", I then took each injection once a day for a total of 3 days until done.  In between I took 1 clonidine like every 6 hours and 2 baclofen for "withdrawal symptoms" like muscle aches etc.  It was honestly UNBELIEVABLE easy and I experienced ALMOST NO DISCOMFORT.  I cried everyday because I was so happy not to have to take the pills just to feel normal.  The visit cost me $240.00 and the meds from the pharmacy $30.00.  I had the prescription filled right down the street at the doctor's suggestion.  After the three days, I just felt like I had little energy and slightly nauseous at times (nothing I couldn't handle).  I should mention that I ended up with a sinus infection (had nothing to do with withdrawal) and felt really headachey and bad from that. but I would have to say that the buprenorphine route is the way to go.  The doctor I went to is in NJ.  If your friend wants to look up some info on the bup.
you can type in "US OPIATE ADDICTION TREATMENT" and look under "DR LANCE GOOBERMAN" this is where I went.  They tell you the treatment and protocol right there online so you can get a general idea of what they do/what to expect.  The doctor wanted me to come back in a week for a pellet implantation under the skin on my abdomen (for another 340.00) but I declined.  This pellet is supposed to counteract any opiates so that you do not get high if you take them.  It lasts about 60 days but I didn't like the idea of having a time released medicine under my skin.  Right now my biggest problem is that I have chronic pain and I can't get rid of it without anything that's pretty strong.  Anyway, good luck and look up the above links to get some more detailed info on buprenorphine detox.  If your friend is in NJ, PA or Delaware, they can go to the same doctor.  He was great and is a recovered opiate addict himself.  Good luck & God Bless, Maryanne

[steve]

This is the same answer I gave to the guy above. But listen.....a few months is a looong time for lortabs, so you got a habit, and the withdrawl will be hard. As I state below, I think self detox is much preferable to withdrawl. The choice is yours, so good luck!
I have a lot of personal experience with opiates, and I've been through it. A few years ago I had to have some surgery, and was getting vicodan and lortabs. It only takes a couple of weeks of doing them several times a day to develope a chippy, or minor addiction, which I did. From previous experience (i had a heroine problem in the '70s) I knew that I had to get things under control. If you have a good amount of personal control, you can kick without any real bad side effects. What I did was cut my dose by 1/3rd every three days until I was down to taking single pills. Than I cut to half a pill, than a quarter. It took some will power, but I can tell you that it beats the hell out of even minor withdrawl symptoms. Try some Nytol or other over the counter medication to help with sleep. Within a week of finishing your detox, you will feel fine. If you don't do it yourself, your going to have to have somebody else help you with it, but you gotta do it. There is no darker, lonlier place than withdrawl. The sooner you get rid of this habit, the sooner you can get back to your life.

[tom to Maryanne]

please read what follows. I hope you're on the forum tonight to see this.

Ater reading the news I posted in another thread on this site, I wrote a representative, director, of the new governing body controlling the accredidation of doctors to treat opiate addiction with agonist/antagonist drugs like buprenorphine, called SAMHSA.

The following is what I said to them -- I apologise for all the borken lines, perhaps your browser can compensate ---
"I am a professional writer for the computer industry living in Orange
> County, California, and have been praying that my government would
> finally provide me with a way to be first detoxed with buprehorphine, then, if that didn't work, treated with methadone or LAAM in what I can only call a more traditional doctor/patient relationship setting.
>All I ask of you is to be directed to a site or listing of private physicians that are or will qualify under this new law to treat opiate addiction with these safe, proven medications.
>
> Any guidance, referrals, or, in the event that I've misunderstood the new law, explanations from you or your staff would be profoundly appreciated. As I'm sure you know, there are millions of Americans who go to work everyday, pay their taxes, raise their children and respect the law who, through some medical misadventure or another, have contracted, and suffer from, the disease of opiate addiction. Many of us have had the disease for so long that nothing short of methadone or LAAM
> maintenance will work for us. I am like many professionals I know who have never bought illegal drugs, but rather have relied on licensed medical professionals for the medications that have allowed us to participate in life, at least outwardly, as normal, law-abiding citizens. To be able to go to my private physician and receive effective treatment, especially with buprenorphine in a normal medical setting would be a blessing from god.

This is his reply:

> Hello [tom]
>
> The new Federal Opioid treatment rules include provisions to increase the flexibility of patient take-home schedules.   Under the new Federa;
rules, which have not yet gone into effect, patients would be eligible for
up to a month's supply of take-home medication after two years in stable
treatment.  This monthly take-home provision requires the program's
medical director to determine that the patient meets certain criteria.  In
some cases, OTPs have indicated an intent to model this like an office
based treatment setting.  One approach could be for you to discuss this
possibility with your treatment program.  State regulations may have to be
considered with this approach.
>
> New Federal legislation enacted October 17, 2000, allows for certain
physicians to prescribe Schedule III, IV, and V, narcotic drug products
for the maintenance or detoxification treatment of narcotic addiction.
There are currently no drug products available for physicians to prescribe under this law.

Did you read that last sentence? Are they mad? They've approved the concept of physicians using Schedule III, IV, V drugs to treat opioid addiction, BUT NO ACTUAL DRUGS HAVE BEEN APPROVED TO BE USED FOR THIS PURPOSE.

Well, lucky me! The concept is soon to become legal, only they neglected to specify the names of any drugs for the doctors to use!

Please tell me, am I losing my mind? Have I forgotten how to interpret the English language?

And how does Dr Gooberman dispense buprenorpin for detox in New Jersey? Is there something special about New Jersey? I don't get it.

Maryanne, I have about 2 weeks before my new job starts. Two weeks in which I could be treated for my addiction. But doctors n California still can't prescribe bup to treat opiate addiction!

In between jobs, I'm afraid I've got to use what Visa cash I have to make sure the rent is payed while I wait for my first check from my new job. I have no money to fly to new Jersy and go to Doctor Gooberman. I'm ******! After all this searching and communicating with all these addiction professionals, and I still can't get help! I am in total dispair. I can't risk a confrontation wih he law and go buy bup in Mexico. I need to get help here in California. What must I do? Can someone reading this message help me? Is my only choice joining the methadone program located next to the county jail in Santa Ana California?

All I want is a chance to clean up using buprenorphine. Why can't I get this in California? Am I asking the wrong people?

Can someone in Southern California who knows of a solution to my problem please respond? Otherwise, I'm thinking I'll have to go to a psych doctor for thousands of dolllars (I've already communicated with one), have him certfy my addicton, then go on methadone. I had such high hopes for buprenorphine. I'm at my witt's end.

[Dreaming87]

Thanks for reading & your response.  It is almost like the "buzz" makes you the person you want to be (which is a fakeout, I know).  I also drink to excess along with my other vices and know the only way to get out of the hole is to NOT DO IT!!  I give myself lectures nightly and end up giving in to my mind.   I think I really need inpatient treatment but that is simply not an option.  Anyway, hopefully I am helping myself somewhat by realizing the situation.  Thanks again.

[Patrice]

Hi Tom,
First of all, hope all is forgiven from last week!!!!!  I need to tell you, I was on the bup/nalxon treatment for 5 weeks.  It NEVER took the cravings away, and in fact made me sick, and so constipated, no matter how many stool sofeners I took, along with peridium (sp) I still couldnt go without an enema.  I finally relented, listened to Dan and went on MMT.  If you are thinking about the bup/naloxn treatment, I hope it will work for you, but with your history, I wish you the best.  I am only saying this, because I care and I know you are an addict just like me..  Think about it, PLEASE!!!!!  Maybe I will run into you at the AA conferance in Fresno in March

Take Care

Patrice

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Yeah, I have done the inpatient thing twice and as soon as I got free of the hospital, I scored more meds.  Sure they get you physically detoxed and provide a lot of education about the addiction process but all the knowledge in the world doesn't help when it comes to craving.  All these well meaning experts tell us things like, quit drinking, quit smoking, quit eating, quit sex, et al.  How to do all this "quitting" is the big mystery in my life.  Quit craving opiates?  You might as well tell me to quit having the common cold!  

I've found that hanging out with people who have been successful in recovery is essential. We simply cannot recover on our own and, as you say, "I end up giving in to my own mind".  I'm far from perfect myself and left to my own devices I would not be alive today.  We do have the ability to change our ways of thinking, however.  Just remember that your present ways have gotten you to this point in your life, and you are realizing the situation as you have said. Where you go from this point is up to you, and you do need some outside help to start making the right choices for yourself.  J.B.

[tom to Patrice]

consider the other night forgotten. You had a right to defend NA since it's worked so well for you. I was speaking from a very retricted experience with NA (boy, did I pick the wrong meetings!). I wound up finding a more do-able, and compehensible program through AA. My main point was that addicts should be agressive about trying different meetings and, in a way, ruthless about returning to the meetings that, for what ever reason, wind up helping them the most. I've got to tell you, Patrice, the NA meets I attended COULDN'T have been like the ones you spoke of. Anyway, it works when you work it, right?

I'm beginning to think that methadone might well turn out to be "the shortest distance between two points." I find it scary, that's all. I've been, more or less, a lone wolf getting, using, going to jail alone. I find the thought of just walking in and sitting down at a table fills me with dread.

I also have to find a doctor to certify my addiction first, and I absolutely won't do that to the kind, compassinate doc that has helped me maintain myself these last few years on plain old Darvon. (It's been years since I actually felt "high"). Everything I take now is just to keep going another day, then another, etc.

Getting a certification from this doc might very well ruin his career, and this man, Patrice, however "careless" he might be in prescribing drugs for me, is an absolute saint who I'd rather go to jail for than harm in any way. So, I'm waiting for a reply from a psychiatrist who recenty offered to certify me. That will be the first step and I know I will have to do it soon.

I'll check in and let you know how I do. It's just that Maryanne's story was so encouraging, I thought, before accepting the finality of methadone, why not at least try the bup?

Take care. All my best to you and your reovery.
tom

[Marie to Tom]

Tom,
Bup is available in Portland,Oregon at OHSU. Perhaps you could call and see what you find out. The pain clinic uses it. Hope this helps.

[Patrice]

Hi Tom

I think it sucks that you have to get a doctor to certify you as an addict before you can go to a clinic!!!  I live in hick town Fresno and all I had to do was give a blood sample, adn urine sample, and they wanted to see my tracks.  Maybe it is different with prescription drug abuse, I dont know.  I do hope you get into some kind of program and soon, we addicts watch out for each other!!!  The bup program Marianne (sp) is talking about is VERY different from the one I was on.  I beleive you just have to take a few injections, right?  Correct me if I am wrong.  All I know is being on the bup for as many weeks I was DID NOT make the cravings go away.  I chose MMT because it doesnt make me sick, I can funtion on it, and the doctor doesnt say, you cant take your antidepressents etc.  I am on top of the world right now, and Dan is the one who pushed enough of my buttons to make me do it!!!!  Do what ever you can to get into a detox.  In fact call information and ask for Touchstone Medical Group in Clovis California, ask for Tony and tell him you want to get on Bup.  I know there are places in SC that have the program, I believe LA and San Diego.  Hope this helped some, and let me know what you find out,ok?

Take care

Patrice

[tom to Patrice, my friend]

something is "in the works" as we speak, a gift to me which carries with it my solemn promise to the giver not to disclose its source under any circumstances. Suffice it to say, I will not be using nalaxone or any ultra-antagonist, but merely detoxing with the bup, plus a little help from some of bup's "sidemen." Then it will be me, the sponsor I have yet to get, and the subsequent program I have yet to work. If I find that life without some form of opioid agonist in my life doesn't work (an all-to-likely outcome of this process, I fear), than I, too, will take Doc Dan's imminently qualified advice and do what you have done. I think three decades of this life is quite sufficient, thank you. I'm ready for something different. How 'bout you?

[Gina]

I was talking to my girlfriend today. She is a licensed clinical social worker. She used to live in NJ but now lives in Fla. She knows of my situation and has been supportive. She knows alot about the field. I was telling her about bup. and she said ,"there's a guy in NJ .." I interrupted her and said '"not Lance Gooberman" and she said " Yeah, that was his name and somebody set me up on a blind date with him." She stated,"I could tell this guy was a recovering drug addict and he had this huge ego, that he shouldn't have ." He is doing a dangerous procedure that people have actually died from." I don't know if it was any of his patients she was referring to but felt very against this procedure. She stated that people need the foundation of Na AFTER detox and felt he wasn't pushing this. I just  wanted to share this interesting info. What do you think?

[J.B. to Gina]

I think that your friend is right on the money.  There can be no recovery without a foundation like NA or AA or some type of after care for the addict.  You can't just tell these people..."well you're clean now and goodbye, that'll be $3500"

It just doesn't work that way in real life!  J.B.

[J.B. to Gina]

I think that your friend is right on the money.  There can be no recovery without a foundation like NA or AA or some type of after care for the addict.  You can't just tell these people..."well you're clean now and goodbye, that'll be $3500"

It just doesn't work that way in real life!  J.B.

[Patrice]

Hi Tom

I will pray that this works for you Tom.  One question I have, is the person you are going to do this with a doctor?  Any detox not medically supervised can be dangerous.  I only want the best for you Tom,do it the right way, for you.  I know down deep in my gut that I will have to have a narcotic in my body for the rest of my life.  That was a deciding factor, along with Dans help in picking MMT.  See Tom, I like you have CP and if I just detoxed, I would start hurting again, and then start taking the pain pills, then the cycle begins.  I admitted it in my NA meeting last night, and some people didnt respect my decision.  Thats ok, because all I know is I am no longer sticking needles all over my body.  Please let me know what happens with your trearment, ok?  I care about you and only want to see you happy joyious and free!!  Just like the fellowship tells us we can be.  In NA we only have one promise, and that is freedom from active addiction.  So if the MMT keeps me from my best friend heroin, then I believe I will have that freedomm.  thank you for being there for me, and putting up with my sorry ass.  LOL.  I hope to talk to you soon.  Oh and you never answered my question, since you live in Southern Ca, will you be at the AA conferance next month?  My hubby and me would LOVE to see you there.  So PLease lt me know iff you are going, ok?

Love your sister in recovery

Patrice

[Gina]

Hey girl--I took your advice and told the nurse at the clinic that I think I need an increase. She told me to fill out a request form and to be specific as to what I was feeling. I told her I have been putting this off cause I didn't want to go any higher but it feels like it wears off early. I have trouble sleeping straight through the night. I explained about the cravings etc. I think I metabolize it quickly. I did find out that if you work out you can actually sweat it out of your system. I have been taking it easy at the gym. When they first increase my dosage as they have in the past everything is fine for about a week then back to this. Hopefully, I will find a dose that works longer than a week. I remember that my counselor told me about a guy who was there for my 10 months and was using the whole time. They increased his dosage by 10mgs and he's been fine ever since. (not using) The counselor couldn't figure out why he didn't ask for an increase. I understand: We are drug addicts and don't want them to think we are just trying to get high off the meds. That's how I feel.

[tom to Patrice]

I'm not sure what 'CP' means, so I'm not sure what to do with that statement. You are correct: I'm planning on doing the bup without medical supervision simply because there isn't any offered here by anyone outside of an in-house commitment place.

There's a big buprenorphine training coming up for California docs to use bup.

check it out:

http://www.csam-asam.org/

Someone offered to get the bup detox kit for me recently and send it to me but I fear she's developed cold feet or perhaps has run into some sort of roadblock. I'm a little worried because she's suddenly stopped communicating with me at all, which mystifies me if nothing else. I just hope it doesn't mean SHE's relapsed. But, if it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen.

As far as the AA conference goes, it doesn't look like I'll have any sort of sobriety by then and wouldn't feel right about attending. Thanks for thinking of me, though. Perhaps we'll meet on another occasion.

Enjoy the conference. Good luck to you and your husband in your continuing recovery.

your friend,

tom

[Patrice]

Hi Tom

What I meant by CP was chronic pain.  That is a big reason for all my relapses, vicodin triggers me to use heroin.  I thought you have chronic pain too, maybe I was wrong, but I dont think so, corrct me if I am wrong ok?  As for the bup treatment, hon, I know for sure they are doing it in Santa Cruz My friend Scott just did it, and Southern Ca.  I think you call UCLA, and of course Clovis.  I would just feel better if you did it medically,  bup isnt even been approved for opiate addiction yet.  PLEASE BE CAREFUL!!!!!  Keep me posted ok?  I care

Your sister in recovery

Patrice

[Patrice]

Hey girlfriend

I am glad you asked for the increase.  Just remeber methadone doesnt get you loaded, or at least it doesnt get me loaded.  You are supposed to feel normal, thats what its all about.  Take it one day at a tie, and ask if you need to go up.  In fact when the weather gets hot, and we sweat a lot we sometimes need a higher dose, dont be ashamed!!!!!!  DO what is right for you.  This is your LIFE.

Love Ya

Patrice

[Tim to Patrice]

sorry not getting the CP thing. Yes, I have three bulging disks in my lower spine which press to varying degrees on my spinal cord. I can go from morphine-level agony to enteric aspirin-level pain. The last couple of months have been good to me and I can actually handle the discomfort with 1000mg enteric aspirin 3 times a day. Compared to most of the CP's I know, I'm relatively pain free, which makes cleaning up my opiate addiction that much more do-able.

I talked to someone at UCLA and all they'll do is put me in a double-blind study where I have a fifty percent chance of getting a sugar pill. Forget it. I want real treatment, not experiments.

While bup looks like it will get here sometime this year, I'm tired of waiting, asking, begging, getting hung up on, and therefore have designed a 13-day taper program for my combo Darvon/Xanax habit which I honestly think I can do. Than I will be AA material. I'm looking forward to going to some meetings, but not while I'm full of drugs. I've also lost contact with the people I knew and have to establish some new relationships and regular meetings. And, yes, I will include some NA meetings as well. I'm sure there are some wonderful NA meetings and I hope to find some of them.

You see, I'm in the rather lucky position of having severance pay from the job I blew (see other posts, etc), and my new job doesn't start, potentially, until the 1st of the month. This gives me a 2 week therapeutic window with all the bills paid, free time from wakeup to bedtime, plus I happen to live in beautiful hill country overlooking the Pacific ocean way down here in South Orange County - perfect for walking and hiking.

Like the "coward" said [he won't give himself a handle - go figure] I have the knowledge and the opportunity to begin my detox and recovery while free of the usual 9 to 5 obligations most of us are always dealing with. I'm so good at dispensing the advice -- now let's see if I can take my own direction and really clean up my act. This is, quite literally, the moment of truth for me, and I have only to put up or shut up. I promised "coward" I wouldn't post anymore on this forum until I had chose and followed through on a treatment option. So that's exactly what I'm doing: Tomorrow, I refill exactly the amount of Darvon and Xanax I need for the 13-day taper, no more, no less. It's now or never. I'm excited, yet there is a tom hunching down in a dark corner of my mind scared to death. But I'm going to do it anyway.

I will keep the forum informed, no bullshit -- if I revert to a higher dosage than my taper schedule calls for, I'll "fess up" and you can all fall upon me like a pack of wolves. Whatever it takes.

Wish me luck. Go with god, Patrice, I'm a long-time student of all the world's religions and so don't have one particular frame of reference or another, but they all have wisdom to give and strength to draw from.

Take care.
tom

[aaaargh what a typo -- no tim , it's "t]

great way to start my program by not bothering to proof my own message.

[tom to Patrice [Phil please delete the "]

sorry not getting the CP thing. Yes, I have three bulging disks in my lower spine which press to varying degrees on my spinal cord. I can go from morphine-level agony to enteric aspirin-level pain. The last couple of months have been good to me and I can actually handle the discomfort with 1000mg enteric aspirin 3 times a day. Compared to most of the CP's I know, I'm relatively pain free, which makes cleaning up my opiate addiction that much more do-able.

I talked to someone at UCLA and all they'll do is put me in a double-blind study where I have a fifty percent chance of getting a sugar pill. Forget it. I want real treatment, not experiments.

While bup looks like it will get here sometime this year, I'm tired of waiting, asking, begging, getting hung up on, and therefore have designed a 13-day taper program for my combo Darvon/Xanax habit which I honestly think I can do. Than I will be AA material. I'm looking forward to going to some meetings, but not while I'm full of drugs. I've also lost contact with the people I knew and have to establish some new relationships and regular meetings. And, yes, I will include some NA meetings as well. I'm sure there are some wonderful NA meetings and I hope to find some of them.

You see, I'm in the rather lucky position of having severance pay from the job I blew (see other posts, etc), and my new job doesn't start, potentially, until the 1st of the month. This gives me a 2 week therapeutic window with all the bills paid, free time from wakeup to bedtime, plus I happen to live in beautiful hill country overlooking the Pacific ocean way down here in South Orange County - perfect for walking and hiking.

Like the "coward" said [he won't give himself a handle - go figure] I have the knowledge and the opportunity to begin my detox and recovery while free of the usual 9 to 5 obligations most of us are always dealing with. I'm so good at dispensing the advice -- now let's see if I can take my own direction and really clean up my act. This is, quite literally, the moment of truth for me, and I have only to put up or shut up. I promised "coward" I wouldn't post anymore on this forum until I had chose and followed through on a treatment option. So that's exactly what I'm doing: Tomorrow, I refill exactly the amount of Darvon and Xanax I need for the 13-day taper, no more, no less. It's now or never. I'm excited, yet there is a tom hunching down in a dark corner of my mind scared to death. But I'm going to do it anyway.

I will keep the forum informed, no bullshit -- if I revert to a higher dosage than my taper schedule calls for, I'll "fess up" and you can all fall upon me like a pack of wolves. Whatever it takes.

Wish me luck. Go with god, Patrice, I'm a long-time student of all the world's religions and so don't have one particular frame of reference or another, but they all have wisdom to give and strength to draw from.

Take care.
tom

[To TOM]

....Do you have family??

[tom to TO TOM]

is that a legitimate question or a statement in the form of a question?
I have a wife if 17 years. She is not an addict, but understands my condition and supports my decision to taper.

Why do I sense I put-down coming?

[Patrice]

Hi Tom,

So you may feel more comfotable, will you feel better corasponding with me via E mail?  I want to be there for you, and E mail is better for me, because there is a chance I will forget to come by this site a day or two.  My addy is ***@****.  Please feel free to write me whenever you want.  Please Tom dont stop going to meetings because you are on drugs.  Anybody that puts you down in either program was never a friend to begin with!!!!!!  I learned that the hard way.  And hon, be careful with the xanax detox!!!!  That can be very dangerous.  The darvon will be roug, but just flu-like symtoms, the xanax withdrawls can cause seizers.  BE CAREFUL, PLEASE!!!!!  I want to help so bad.  Remember in both programs the most important person is the newcomer, and if you went to a meeting with me, and someone gave you **** because of it, I would be on them like you wouldnt believe!!!!!  I may be a newcomer, but I NEED to be at meetings, just to keep from going crazy.  Did I tell you that I fessed up to my group to being on methadone?  Well some people jugded me and I dont care.  I am there to save my life, not to please people.  Whatever program you go to, you find one that you feel totally at ease with, ok?  Sorry if I sound like I am preaching, but I want you to make it!!!!  If you fall, just brush yourself off and pick up where you left off.  Remember Tom, relapse  happens and the only crime is to stop comming back.  I really wish you would come to Fresno for that conferance, you and your wife could sit by my hubby Mike and me, and we can stand up proudly EVEN IF WE HAVE NO CLEAN TIME!!!!  We are addicts and we stick together.NO MATTER WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Like I said Tom, if you feel better talking in private, e mail me at any time.  I will look for your post tomorrow.

Love, your sister in recovery

Patrice

[Patrice]

Gina PLEASE E mail me, I need to talk to you

Take care

Patrice

[Dangel47]

Hello to all. I am newcomer to this site and it is such a relief to find that there are people like me out there.  I was just browsing the web and found this site. I have always loved lortabs, painkillers, nerve meds, alcohol,etc. I knew it was wrong to do so but I could not shake the (want to or have to have it) feeling. No matter how hard I tried I stole pills from peoples cabinets, including my mothers pills. I slipped around and hid wine coolers in my closet for those times when I could not find meds. I called the doctor for cough syrup when I had no cough,ha. Who was I kidding? No-one but myself. I have ocd pretty bad and decided to go to the doctor for help. I told her the truth about everything. She said I had ocd and needed to be on medicine to help with those unwanted feelings of anxiety, compulsions, obcessive behaviors,etc...... I am now on buspar and celexa which seems to be helping tremendously. I still desire to get high even though I have not had any booze since last year. I still want to get high but try to refuse finding ways to get them. However, sometime I do give in and if I see a lortab or my dentist prescribes a pain med for root canals, etc..... I shout halleluiah all the way to the drug store. I have never taken over three or four lortabs at once cause I was scared to and I did not like the withdrawels. My question is (does that feeling ever go away of wanting that buzz or that high?) Its so hard to resist when they're sitting there in front of your face. I heard out of sight, out of mind.......Thats true to a certain extint. But the minute I hear of someone having pain meds in the closet I try to find a way of getting a few out of the cabinet............Help me if you can............I hope I can find this site again............

[PS >>>>Annie]

........I may not be the best one to respond to your post, but here is my best shot.  First of all I am a chronic pain sufferer, and had a hard time getting narcotic pain meds to treat my pain for over 8 years.  Recently my doctors have been prescribing because of surgery and other issues.  I had received severe injuries from an accident.  Let me just say this...if you ever really need potent pain relief (God have mercy on you), and your doctor gives you something mild, the medication won't work because of a tolerance you have built up.  This just happend to me after my surgery. "Well I'll just take more of them," you say.  Well then, think of the damage the Tylenol can do to your liver, or think of the limited amount you may have (like me) after a major surgery. Scary, isn't it?? Also (another ex.), the anesthetic kept wearing off in the dentist chair, while he was working on me.  OUCH!!!!  Keep in mind that I wasn't given anything for 8 years, because Doctors were very reluctant or against prescribing due to the very behavior you are speaking of.  This tolerance built up rather quickly.  

I thought of many issues when responding to your post, but this just jumped out of my mind.....lol  Think really hard about the people who have legitimate needs, and suffer because of behavior like this.  If not, then think of yourself.  The latter would be wise.  If fear doesn't deter you, than I don't know what else to say.  You will get some other responses that are very good, i'm sure.  Keep coming to this forum.

Annie

[PS >>>>Annie]

Oh by the way.......I hope my post didn't seem to harsh.  I was trying the fearful approach.....lol.....Keep up the good work, you seem to be doing a great job.  You may never loose that desire to get high.  Find something to do...that you have a passion for.  Maybe the void will be filled.  Good luck.

Annie

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

My own craving for the Buzz has never left me.  There have been times when I thought that I was "over all of that" but time and again I've relapsed.  Though I don't actively seek narcotics anymore, when they are in my face, I will eventually pop a few.  Don't feel lonely out there, Dange!  Most of us have the same problems that you have described.  The ways of dealing with these problems are varied and many and hopefully we can all help eachother on this forum.  J.B.