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low dose naltrexone for subutex paws
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low dose naltrexone for subutex paws

   ok a little history first, 10 years on herion and 6 years on subutex. Went from 12mg to 4mg to 0mg. Went in a 5 day detox (detox 5, uk). It was a little expensive, but for me it was worth doing because my sub use was starting to effect my work. wow looking back i do not know how i kept my job through a 10 year smack habit, My breakfast used to be a bag and a joint hehe. Any way, the detox itself was quite easy, i did not even vomit or have diarrea (diarrhea). So they must have there meds right now. (When i first went in a few years ago, it was a different story, i ran out of boxer shorts hehe). What they do not tell you at the end of the detox, is that the next 3 months can be hell for long term sub users.  Before i left i had a 3 month Naltrexone implant put in. Would i recommend a implant? well yes and no. No because i felt really depressed for the 3 months i was on it, but a lot of that could of been because of the detox. Naltrexone blocks your own natraul endorphines as well as all opiates. Yes, because it guarantees that you will get 3 months clean under your belt, even when you think you cannot take anymore.
     So its been 4 months now, still not 100% because of paws, if i look back its not half as bad as it was. The deep depression has gone, energy slowly coming back, sleep starting to get better. Not really want to wait another 4 months to get 100% better.
   So thought i would try low dose naltrexone at night 2mg, i tried it for 3 nights, well i was surprised, By day 2 i felt good again, not 100%, but 90%. (At low dose's, it blocks your endorphine receptors for a few hours, so when it wears off your brain is meant to compensate and produce extra endorphines eg 300%.). I had high levels of energy and my motivation had come back. As an experiment i stopped and 2 days later everything went back to normal eg energy and motivation a little low. So i can report it does work for the short term.
    Has anyone else experimented with ldn for paws, i would like to here how you got on long term? I stopped because as we all know, you do not get pleasure for free, there is always the day we have to pay it back 10 fold. I remember thinking subs were wonderfull at first, how wrong was i hehehe.
     So i was wondering if ldn gives you a endorphine hit through out the day, i guess your body would get used to this, so does paws come back after you stop taking it? does it make paws worse? How long does it work for? before our brains get used to the higher endorphines levels?
     Also how long there paws last for? meant to be going on holiday with my girlfriend soon, but not really want to go if i still have paws. Oh one last question, has anyone been drinking when in paws, does it make it worse? thanks
  P.S My friend did a sub detox but did it the taper method, i think this method is a lot better for paws, as it gives your body and brain time to adjust. He reports feeling fine now.  
      
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271792_tn?1334983257
Were you diagnosed by a doctor as having PAWS?
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Avatar_f_tn
I have know experience about naltrexone, or  sub detox,  I can only tell you my story.
I went c/t off lortabs, in the last day of march of this year.  Now, I am having Paws, and there are days it is pretty bad. I am 46 days out and still not liking life right now.

About the drinking here is what happened to me.  One week ago, I was cooking supper.  Italian food we were having, so I decided to pour myself  a tiny bit of red wine.  I mean probably about less than half a cup.  I thought maybe it might relax me. WRONG!!!!!
It really made me feel, almost like I was going to have an anxiety attack.  So, my friend that is all the experience I can help you with.  Just stay the course, and be advised about not drinking caffine during w/ds and keep hydrating with water, thats what I use and sometimes gatoraide.   I have not experimented with anything, else to try to ease my w/ds , except. On the days I cant stand it, I take one half of  1mg of ativan. This is under my doctors care.  Check with your doctor and see what they can do for you would be my solid advice.  Keep on here, there is so much support, and we need all we can get.
God Bless / pm me if I can be of any help to you
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271792_tn?1334983257
Kim, were you also diagnosed by a doctor with having PAWS?
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Avatar_m_tn
  Thanks for your comments, no i have not been diagnosed by a doctor. Paws is very common for long term sub use as it changes the brain chemistry. I have done a lot of research on the net, so i do not need a diagnosis from a doctor. Most doctors do not have much knowledge about paws. I feel your best to educate yourself. A few years ago i was given trazadone by a doctor, he said it was not addictive and i could stop when ever i wanted. I found out the hard way, and struggled for months to get off it. So now i take responsibilty for my own recovery.
    For me the first 3 months were worse. After 4 months the deep depression has gone and energy levels have started to come back., Im guessing it might be another couple of months for me.
    I see your on day 46 off lortabs, i would hope your paws will not last as long as mine as you were taking a short acting opiate. One thing i would be very carefull with is taking any drug, I know ativan is a benzo, You can get addicted to benzo's in a week or 2.
    The best treatment i have found for paws is to increase our endorphine levels naturaly, exercise, exercise, exercise, chocolate, chillies, sex.
     Oh you did not say how long you were on lortabs for? i think this can effect length of paws. If your paws is like mine, another 4 weeks and you should be over the worsed of it.
good luck
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1416133_tn?1351126817
IB asked a good question here.  I do believe only a Dr. can diagnose paws - and it typically doesn't happen (if at all) until after 6 months clean and up to two years after that so it would seem what you're probably experiencing is the of the residual effects of the withdrawal because some symptoms can linger on for a bit.  At least they did for me.
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Avatar_m_tn
    Thanks for the comment, but all the research i have done states paws is very common with long term sub use. And it does not start after 6 months. It starts after the detox. You can find many studies stating this.(have a look on the net and this site). And i think you will find most doctors do not know much about paws. I cannot help but feel its not a good idea to put blind faith in what a doctor says. A lot of the information they get is from manufactures, hence they under - state the adverse effects some drugs can have, especialy after long term use.
   The lingering effects your talking about is paws, not withdrawal. caused by low levels of endorphines. (I took naltrexone, which knocks all opiates out of your system, so its not withdrawal after 4 months. Maybe its best agree to disagree on this.
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1416133_tn?1351126817
That's cool I can appreciate different points of view - and I have no experience with sub withdrawal so I'm not speaking from personal experience, only from the research I found on PAWS.  But it's cool - I'm okay with agreeing to disagree!  :)
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Avatar_m_tn
Hiya. Am from the UK too. I've been on Subutex for 5 years now..

About LDN I've researched about it too. I know few people who did this route and all say after few days to a week on LDN you feel really crappy, low energy, depression etc, so it doesnt work for the long run, if anything it makes PAWS worst...Its no point doing it for 2-3 days, don't forget Sub hangs aroung a long time and something like LDN cannot suddenly kick start Endorphins which were reduced by Buprenorphine!..Someone in the U.S tried LDN for sub PAWS and only took it for the max 2 weeks (on & off), just to experiment, they claimed it helped for 1-2 days but then they became zombies..So then they went off the LDN and felt much better...They were on Buprenorphine-Suboxone for 5 years and their PAWS are gone too.

Best bet was to taper the sub, it can take literally 6-7 months to taper from 16mgs, hence of your depression 4 months out, those 4 months one can taper from 4mgs, you get the picture? if it takes that long to taper then obviously doing a quick detox as you did you will still feel some PAWS-depression 4 months out...Am on 1mgs now. Ive have no problems tapering from 8mgs...I will take another 2-3 months to go from 1mgs to 0 to give me the best chance possible to ride the withdrawals and PAWS...You should have tapered man. Also I excercise a lot and that makes a big difference to my tapering and mindset!

By the way what do they do in detox 5? what meds do they give?
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Avatar_m_tn
   Thanks for your reply. Yes i think you might be right about ldn, only working for a short amount of time on subutex paws. Im guessing it increases endorphines at first, then seems to stop working. So i think you have helped me make up my mind, looks like i will have to ride this paws out naturaly. Bummer hehe.
   My mate did the long slow taper method like you, After about 5 years on subutex. And i think he did not suffer paws. If you get down to 0.25 i would stay there for a month or 2 just to make sure you do not get paws. Its a right pain, no motivation, low energy and depression, its not acute, its more the length of time it takes thats the really annoying thing. You feel like it will never end. I would of tapered if i could, but the subs stopped holding me and i was finding it hard to stay on 4mg. Are they still working and holding you?
   Not 100% sure of all the meds you get at detox 5,Trazadone, buscaban, naltrexone, sickness tablets, plus some injections. but they do work quite well, even when they give you naltrexone on the thursday. I did not even vomit or have diarra. I found it just got you over the acute withdrawal phaze. But there is still a lot of work to do when you get home.
Your brain still needs time to recover.
      Good luck with your final taper, i think thats the best root to take if you can do it. You will have to let me know how you get on. I hope you will be like my mate and miss out on the paws. Its the gift that keeps on giving hehe.
p.s Oh I would keep away from naltrexone, unless u are very scared of relapsing, At high doses it blocks your natural endorphines as well. I had a 3 month implant, i can still feel a small lump, so maybe im still getting a small dose, so maybe thats causing the depression.
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Avatar_m_tn
What if I transfer to a short-acting-opiate once I reach 0,2mg of Subutex-Temgesic? just to hold out the half-life of sub.

Also I believed that u cannot do a rapid detox of buprenorphine, not in the UK anyway and even in the US for most folks it doesnt work because of the long half-life of Sub...They eventually say all the withdrawals and PAWS come back and u must do it a slow and needs time without inputting any meds, injections etc...u am curious how did they rid all that half-life of Sub from u, even though they gabe u naltrexone the sub has a very-long half-life, so add that together from all your previous doses it can takes weeks and months for that half-life to go out so am curious how they managed to do it in 5 days.
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Avatar_m_tn
And about LDN. I heard the more u take it the less it raises Endorphins, for instance u take it for the first time it may raise ur endorphines for about few days, but if u take a second time in few days or weeks then it doesnt do the same job, meaning it doesnt always raise endorphines, I think thats true based on my Research and from people's experiences..Its no point raising endorphins for 1 day or 2 only to be extend the PAWS and LDN to stop-working.

How do u take the LDN? from on-line pharmacies right? because here in the UK they dont give u a LDN, only 50 tablet, so u must do-make it yourself right?
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Avatar_m_tn
Your mistaken about not being able to do a rapid detox off subs, they give you naltrexone on the 4 day which strips all the subs out of your system. It has a stronger binding effect on your receptors than subs, so knocks all the subs off your receptors and blocks them with naltrexone.
But i think your right about ldn hehe, i have taken it again tonight, but will not be doing it again. Looks like i will just have to be patient.
I got a months supply from the detox centre so i just crush them up 50mg and split down to 2mg.
How are you finding your taper, i used to get big headaches when i tapered.
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Avatar_m_tn
But then anything such as Lofexidine can cover you until the acute withdrawals of Subutex go away or Clonidine..The half-life is so stacked in the system that even when any sub in your system is out you still feel withdrawals, albeit mild but long, you dont need neltrexone for that, you only need 4-5 days to a week for sub to get out of your system, but it;s the half-life which contributes to PAWS which is the main issue..I know many sub users who dont mind so much the acute withdrawals but the PAWS which u have are the issue, I know it looks like a big waste of money going inpaitient-detox-5 to get off sub but one can take diazepam or anything else for a week to rid the subs out of the system. Because it's the receptors which sub fills and thus give PAWS! Many people dont vomit or get sick when going through Subute-Buprenorphine withdrawals but they get sick of the long-lasting withdrawals of it which your having, in that sense it seems bit of a waste doing detox-5 to get off sub. Remember stuff as such heroin have hardcore acute withdrawals, they are totally different to Subutex withdrawals..You could have just taken some meds until sub came out and you';d still be in the same boat...Also naltrexone tablers are dirty cheap for the net and u could have done it yourself..I  got tons of naltrexone tablets at home, all for the price for a mere £20....Also when taking neltrexone it it depletes your endorphins more, mix that with coming off opiates or sub it just gives you extra grief and depression...Like u said best method is taper slowly or use comfort meds to get subs out of your system instead of paying all that much money for detox-5..What folks suffer with is PAWS,many would rather have acute withdrawals then suffere paws for months and years...

MY taper is soo far soo good..I do lot of excercise and keep busy!
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Avatar_m_tn
I mean about 50mg naltrexone, when they give it to you on the 4th day your already coming out of a deranged state & have some depression anyway, so mxing naltrexone on the 4th or 5th day just causes more depression and lowers the Endorphins, the Endorpins are already depleted during the 4th and/or 5thday so I dont really think it's worth it..I mean the subs can be knocked of the receptors but it's the half-life which cannot, hence of what contributes to PAWS..Also receptors have already been flooded because of the half-life and thus one gets PAWS..
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Avatar_m_tn
Warning warning, never never never take a full dose of naltrexone when on subs and at home. You will want to kill yourself because of the pain. I know 2 guys did it together, both said they would of shot themselves if they had a gun.
You talk about depression because of the naltrexone on day 4, its not really an issuie, because of all the meds your on and your asleep most of the time.
And yes detox 5 only gets you past the acute detox phaze,  But if you do a natural acute withdrawal at home, no way will you start to feel better after 4 or 5 days. Its only just kicking in after day 4.
Im glad your tapers going well, i think thats the best method. good luck with it. Some days im  tempted go back on 0.2 0r 0.4mg, because of this bloody paws. Its not that bad for 1 day, but after 4.5 months it gets a little annoying hehe.
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Avatar_m_tn
I contacted Detox-5 and they said if you wean down to the lowest amount possible and so it slow then there is no need to come in for detox..I think they only detox folks who stopped at a high dose or weaned down quickly in the space of a week or so..Is that true Waiting88? they said it's not really going to be worth getting detoxed over 0.2mg as most of the sub will have gotten out of your system, or whatever sub is in your system is only 0.2mg worth of withdrawal which is not worth paying £3,000 for as it won't be so intense..You tapered pretty fast didnt you and was on a high dose when you went into Detox-5 right?.


I didnt plan to use Naltrexone and I dont, well not at the moment, if I did it will always be a week or 2 after I jump...Am just concerned about it blocking Natural-Endorphins when your Endoprhins are already going to be depleted for weeks and months..Also I dont plan on using opiates to get high or relapse.. I haven't touced heroin in 5 years and haven't touched anything else either..I've totally changed that mindset a long time ago.. I only ever did heroin 4 years on and off, but it's just a shame I've been on Subutex this long..Hopefully my age, my pshycal-routine, mentally stable etc will get me past the withdrawals and PAWS..I also hav a very supportive family so that will keep me in good-stead!
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Avatar_m_tn
Yes i went in at 12mg and 4mg. I think there right about its not worth doing at 0.2mg. Why jump off at 0.2mg? if your not struggling with your taper go to 0.1mg, 0.05mg ect then start skipping days. The lower you can get the less chance of getting paws. I jumped off at 4mg because the subs stopped holding me and i was getting side effects.
As i stated before my mate had a similar history to me,doing opiates. he did a long and slow taper and suffered no paws.
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Avatar_m_tn
   I tried ldn at 2mg for 3 days, Increased my energy and mood, you could even say it made me a little high. Stopped and the depression came back on day 2. And it seemed to of made the paws worse for a few days. So i did another 3 day on ldn, by day 2 my mood and energy levels increased again, but not the high like the first time. Stopped for 3 days and im still in a good mood. Maybe on day 1 and 2 rls increased at night. So my plan is to see how long the depression stays away for. Then have another ldn dose.
    My theory being that im just trying to give my endorphines a small boost just enough to take the depression and low energy away. I do not want the 200%-300% increase a daily dose of ldn can give you. scared my opiate starved brain would get used to the high level of endorphines and go back into paws when daily ldn dosing is stopped.
   I have read many stories about ldn for paws, some people seem to do ok others not. So i will be interested how this experiment works.  Be nice to here from anyone doing ldn and  how it effected them.
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Avatar_m_tn
The thing with LDN is that it doesnt do much for long-acting-opiate PAWS as compared to short-acting-opiates. Everyone who has come off sub and whome tried LDN all say it postpones PAWS back, for instance it will give u a rise of Endorphins for 2 days then stop working, it will stop working because it will push your PAWS back further, meaning extending them..The more you do LDN the more times u will have to take it as your only pushing PAWS back..The hypnosis of kick-starting Endoprhins proved to be wrong for long-term sub-meth users. The best form of raising endoprhins is to Excercise and ride it out. Also there aren't much stories of LDN for sub users except few in reality (outside of Internet) remember PAWS differ's to each person and sub PAWS are very different to PAWS from heroin and other short-acting-opiates...You just dont want to be relying on LDN all your life, because pshyclogically you will get depedent on that as you will need it to raise your Endorphins, so be careful in that regard..Also I heard it effects the liver more then alchohol believe it or not? my prescribing Doctor said this, so you just might want to think about this carefully a lot more..Anything which helps your mood usually has side-effects and one has to play the piper...Your just dont want to be making your PAWS worst of holding them back is all.
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Avatar_m_tn
Also one more thing I may add importantly..This American person who did LDN for suboxone also said  the half-life of LDN can stay with you for a few days and even weeks, making the mistake of thinking your natural Endorphins rised, but thats not the case, it holds you until the LDN comes out of your system and then it's back to square one again i.e PAWS..So like I said be very careful and try to be strong-minded in going naturally, you dont want to be depedent on anything for the rest of your life, my doc said LDN is really for those folks who need Endorphin rush all their lives, surely u dont want your PAWS to be extending and extending by the LDN..Ok be well and try to ride it out I say!
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Avatar_m_tn
Also do you take your LDN in the evenign or morning? apparently you cannot get a full nights sleep with LDN if taken at night..Also you do know that the more u take LDN the more reliable u have to be on it? and the worse depression gets..You might feel ok now but thats because of the Half-life of LDN, hope you do realize that, it builds up in your system, even if you take LDN every 3 days or 4 days your building it up, so dont make the mistake of thinking its your natural endorphins which have risen, but infact its the LDN, so that proves the theory that the more u take LDN the more u will have to rely on it and more u will need it,  if u stop it will take time to be back where u before LDN, basically making PAWS longer and worse...I know because 3 people said the exact same thing, all sub-users, so be careful.
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Avatar_m_tn
  The experiment continues hehe, well this is day 4 or 5 without ldn and im still in quite a good mood. The depression is the worse part of paws, which has lifted for the time being. Still have rls for a couple of hours at night, but thats not a big issue. I take ldn at 10pm, i did not notice any changes in my sleep pattern. eg normaly i can not get to sleep untill about 2am because of rls. (only have slight rls at night when i want to sleep now).
   Not sure i agree with you about ldn half life and biulding up in your system, It works by only attaching to your receptors for 3 or 4 hours, (because your only taking a 2% normal dose), blocking endorphines, your body see's a decrease in endorphines so up-regulates. You will not feel this up-regulation untill the naltrexone has left your receptors.
     I know what your saying about possibly putting paws back, thats conerns me. There is also a theory that ldn helps re-confirm pathways in the brain that we have not used in a long time.
     Oh about effecting your liver, really think its not a problem when taking 2% of a normal dose.
       Cheers for your info, i understand what your saying about ldn making paws worse, i was hoping ldn would be a gentle way to ride out paws and help get some time between me and subs.
      So we will see what this weeks bring and if the depression comes back without the ldn.
      
  
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Avatar_m_tn
Hows your taper going? are you finding easy?
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Avatar_m_tn
Hey man.. Yes I get what your saying, same thing was said about bup-sub about the half-l/ife being 37 hours yet people still experience foggyness-paws for weeks on end, its the same with LDN, it might leave your system for a few days but mentally its still there...Did u know sub PAWS can also be caused by the effects by sub? meaning something like brain lesions? tyroid? testorone? all this can be effectd by sub and can lead to PAWS or/and long PAWS, so try to get yourself checked out..Someone I know still has PAWS 2 years after jumping from bup, she was on it for 2 years, she said depression was worse, no motivation, numbness etc and she decided to go to the Doctors and guess what? she had an MRI scan which revealed 11 brain-lesions, all caused by the sub, if she never had these brain-lesions then she would have not had PAWS this long, so yeah get yourself checked out for anything, get blood-testes, liver test, brain test etc I know its not good news but thats one of the reasons why people have long PAWS, because sub triggers something in our bodies and mind...

There are no long-term studies on bup, it's still relatively new opiod, espeacially for maintence and nobody truly knows the long-term effects of bup if take for long-term. It does makes sense why some people have long PAWS though, another person also had brain-lesions after bup , so it's not always the sub alone whch gives u paws but what sub does to the mind and body which triggers sickness, illnesses etc which give long PAWS.

About the LDN and liver, my Doctor said even 0.5mg is effective as a bottle of vodka, someone did a liver test and they had ineffective liver enzymes because of LDN, thats what my doctor said so there is a possibility it effects parts of the body such as Liver..

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Avatar_m_tn
Also when u take LDN it can raise the endorphins for 5 days to a week, espeacially the more you take it, so even if u took it for 2 days and stopped your Endorphins would still have been risen, but when the LDN leaves the system your more easily prone to depression, it works for few days and thats about it, because if u take it once or twice you feel u have to take it regularly and when u do that your sucking yourself up more for depression, so really there is no point taking something which when u stop makes depression worst, and also stops working, this is from people's experiences who used LDN for sub and methadone too.

So far my taper has been ok, am at 0.8mgs now..The only thing that works me for is excercise, if I dont excercise then I would feel a bit craaap, bored and taper wouldnt be that comfortable, but because of the excercise its holding me...I also drink lot of water and also sorted out any issues in my life which can make PAWS and withdrawals and taper seem worse then it is...I think the mindset needs to change, for instance if one is a bitter jelous insecure person then PAWS will be long for them, if one is nice person with amibtion and bit civlized then PAWS  can be controllable, but like I said PAWS can be there not just because of bup and it's half-life but also what bup has done to the mind and body, so one needs to get checked out for everything just to be on the safe-side!!!!.. Also 2mgs off bup is about 3-4 months worth of tapering, so if someone stops at 2mgs they will most likely have mild withdrawals and PAWS for 4 months, you get me? whereas if one stops at 0,2mgs and tapered to  that dose slowly then they only withdraw from 0,2 which is like a week or 2 weeks of mild withdrawls, so yeah I agree about the slow wean helping PAWS, but also what bup does to our mind, liver, testorone, blood, brain etc all can contribute to PAWS, so again get checked out, so then at least u can eliminate any possibility PAWS being caused by something else other then Sub-Bup.
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Avatar_m_tn
  yes we can agree sub is a crazy drug if used for the long term, what annoys me is the info the drug worker gave me. Said nothing about the problems of long term use, and said the withdrawals are mild. I really think they do not understand about subs because they are working off information given to them from sub manufactures.
  One theory about ldn, sub use cause's our brains to produce extra opiate receptors, so when we stop subs our bodies produce there natural level of endorphines, but this level is no where near enough to fill up all the extra receptors. We need time for these receptors to turn off. (I think you can wake them back up quickly if you go back to opiates, thats why an ex addict can get there tolerance back quickly). So if we use ldn untill some of the receptors die off, this could be a gentle way to ride out paws.
I have found a couple of people on the net that said ldn worked for there sub paws.
   At the end of the day its all guess work, good luck with your taper, i would not jump off at 0.2, i would go low low low then skip days, i think this method gives you the best chance of missing the paws phase.
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Avatar_m_tn
Think this is day 5 with no ldn, still no deep depression, which was the worse bit. I will have to wait and see what this week brings.
I completely agree about exercise making you feel better, also chocolate, chilli's, sex,
help with endorphines. chocolate can slow degradation of endorphines,
And i agree, subs mess with your brain chemistry more than most opiates, one reason i think is because it effects the kappa receptors more than normal opiates. I reduced off meth, took about 1 year and did not get paws.
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Avatar_m_tn
there was a study it showed 300mg could cuse damage, said 50mg ok. so 0.5mg, so to me 0.5mg would be like a sip of vodka, not a bottle lol. so i feel ldn and liver damage is not an issue.
Plus i think your right its best to ride out paws naturaly, but after 19 weeks of feeling low and having no motivation can be a real drag. Can make you feel like going back to a small dose of subs. So maybe ldn is the lessor of the the 2 evils.
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Avatar_m_tn
The thing is since a person has been on sub for so long it takes quite a while to feel better i.e getting rid of PAWS..Many people say the 1 year mark or 2 year mark is when they turn the corner. So really we cannot expect to be all rosy in space of  6 months...My Doctor said 0.5mg is equivlent to one bottle of vodka lol, thats what she said because another person took LDN about 0.3mg actually and his liver started to mess up, this was only after 2-3 weeks of LDN, he had a test and his liver-enxymes got messed up all because of LDN.. Again there are no long-term studies of LDN either aswell as bup...But bup can cause liver damage too and brain, so I would personally get checked out for this..Take a blood test, MRI-Scan, liver test etc and rule our anyting which is making PAWS long or worst, least that way u can be treated by given supplements or some other meds which can shortedn your PAWS or least eliminate them much as possbile..Dotors dont know abt sub PAWS as its still new opiod...All I have found on the Internet is 6 people who used LDN for sub and all of them said exactly the same thing that LDN stops working after a week and if anything makes PAWS-Depression worst, and they claim u have to rely on it as it's a life-time thing, dont forget LDN was made for folks who had Hepititis (hepatitis) C, HIV-AIDSs & other illnesses and it was made for them to take it for the rest of their life if not years and years, so really it's not suprising sub users claim that u have to keep taking it in order to make your Endorphins on base-level...

Dont forget on the Intetnet not everybody will tell the truth...One person claimed LDN helped when infact in real-life it didnt help him, but he wanted to save face and didnt want to look he failed, so really dont trust too many folks on the net..I still have yet to see 1 person either on the Internet or/and real-life who said LDN helped their PAWS. I dont mean 1 or 2 days but in the long-run, all seem to say it stops working and makes it worse because when u stop the LDN the depression-PAWS seem worse, even when they take LDN for couple of days in a row they feel the Endorphins are being blocked, thats what concerns me, that majority of folks who used the LDN for sub all say the exact same thing...I may just turn to Ibogaine-Iboga to help with PAWS and withdrawals...I may just get boosters to help PAWS..Its cheaper then detox-5 , but some folks say its gruelling with subutex, they have to switch to   a short-acting-opiate in order to use Iboga-Ibogaine for sub detox...They do a flood-dose and then boosters for PAWS...

Also some people have said PAWS will last for the rest of your life after long-term bup..Someone was on it for 3 years and 5 years later they still got PAWS, they tried eveyrthing and came to the conclusion PAWS will always be there, so thats another worrying thing...I must admit I have not seen anybody stay clean after stopping long-term sub, meaning staying clean for 3-6 months, they either relapse, go back on sub, or go on opiates, that again concerns me too..But good-luck in your progressiong, keep posting and be honest about it, because nobdy wants to post negative stuff or want to look they failed, but end of the day honesty is best policy..

Peace!
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Avatar_m_tn
Yes LDN can be lessed of the two (sub) but end of the day both are mentally addicting too...You dont want to be reliant on something to give u a endorphin rush...You want to be naturally high or have your Endorphins increased naturally, because what happens if one cannot get more LDN? the cost of it too and time consuming, and being mentally depedent on it, they're both the same, including opiates or anything which gives u fake rise in mood and rise in-Endorphins, because becomng reliant on something is just the same as being addicted to opiates, and at the same time messing your liver, brain and receptors...You want to lead a clean life with no opiates, no LDN, no substances, thats the only way one will progress and have a long healthy happy life...

It shouldnt be about lesser of the 2 but about being off everything, as like I said both are same, both mentallty addicted and both having one to be reliant on them, thats no life really, because LDN was primarily made for folks with weak immune systems who have dieases and whome have to take it for the rest of their lives, surely u dont want that...But like I said get tested  i.e blood count, liver, brain test, thyroid, testorone etc all this can be be effect by sub and Contributes to PAWS, so maybe get checked out for evertything just to be on the safe-side and maybe even get treatment for it so u can reduce PAWS.

.I mean surely its not always the bup alone but what sub-bup does to the mind and body which in turn extend PAWS or-and make it worse. Like I said 2 ppl already got brain-lesions because of bup, thats why they were depressed and have typical-syptoms of PAWS, so plz get checked out, dont forget 6 years on a powerful opiod such as sub-bup is intense  and long and can effect the mind and body for sicknesses, eeven 50 times strong as Morphine..So dont be afraid to get checked out, better now then never, better to know then not to know, better to get diadnosed and treated then when its too late, maybe even reduce PAWS and eliminate them,..

.Everything has side-effects, anything which gives u a endorphin rush will have side-effects my Doctor-said..Its still a tablet, a substance, and still messes the liver, even a small amount, doctor convfirmed it when an LDN user had his liver-enzymed messed up, so yeah when u got to your Doctor tell him/her u want to get tested for everything possible... Good-Luck man.
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Avatar_m_tn
   Thanks for the comments. Ohh you mentioned about not knowing anyone that had stayed off subs long term. Here is some hope for you, my mate has. He tapered slowly down and never complained about paws. I think a slow taper gives your brain time to repair. So think if you do it right, eg go to a tiny dose then skip days, you will miss out on the wonderfull  paws lol. (i did a year taper of meth, went very very low when i finished i had no paws or rattle because a went so low eg 0.1mg.)
   How many people do you know that have failed to stay off subs long term? im still annoyed with the drug people, they said it would be easy to stop and only mild withdrawals. lol
    Think this is day 6 without ldn, my mood is still quite good and energy levels ok, still rls at night and just a little foggy. I can get enjoyment from doing activities now and my feeling are coming back.
   But if i look back  a month or 2 im improving, rls has nearly gone, energy levels up, deep depression gone, tiolet getting better. Still not 100%, but most symtoms (symptoms) now are a  annoying rather than a major problem.
   So not sure if ldn has helped or if its just time away from subs, I just hope the feeling numb and depression does not come back. Thats the worse bit. Just a thought, i had a 3 month naltrexone pellet, maybe thats wearing off and thats why my mood has got better. There is a theory that if you take naltrexone, it puts your brain into a naive opiate state, increasing recovery time.
  Hows your taper going? any major side effects? Are you finding it hard?
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Avatar_m_tn
Hellow there guys. I felt I needed to chime in here. Brief history. Heroin user for 5 years, methadone users for 6 mothns, sober for 5 months, relapsed then was put on subutex treatment. Stayed on that for 2 years and 3 months. Weaned down slowly and jumped from 0.25 together with alternating days. Had some withdrawals and then these dreaded paws, went on the LDN treatment, unfortunetly made things much worse for me. I admit it proudced some endorphins but only for a few hours up to 1 day, then when I stopped the LDN it took me a good week up to 2 weeks to feel on the level. The more you consume LDN the more you need it and the more you feel paws. Am sorry its not positive news people but I felt obliged to tell the truth of my experience. If there is any advice I can give it's not to do the LDN, particularly for more then a week, don't even consume it here and there, it's no benfit for opiate users believe me. You will okish for few hours to few days then it's downhill, the next time you need more and more LDN and worst thing about it is that it "STOPS" working so soon, LDN can only go so far in raising our endorphins. I concur with few posters above that it does ineed affect your liver to an extent, am talking about ultra low dose naltrexone too, so don't suck up to any stories which your doctors tell you. It can  also cut down your brain cells to an extent. All in all a very tiring experience mines was (LDN) It's not worth it all for methadone or suboxone users. I took my LDN for overall for 3 weeks, this is alltogether. Everytime I took it I felt okish for a day at the most, but then feel worse then when I was before (when going through PAWS). Anything which boosts you up eventually  comes down and when it does come down it comes down with a vengence. My advice would to be give yourselves time guys, time is the best healer of all.

Be good and continue your progress folks. Dont let any doctors or so called stories get to you. Do whats best, am simply giving my version of LDN as I was also a suboxone/subutex user too and it does not help PAWS as we want to, if anything it takes a lot out of you and brings your endorphins down to an extent where you feel worse then before and prior to LDN. My current situation is am on methadone now. I also cannot seem to find folks who quit bup and were clean, but dont let my experience scare you guys, am simply wanring folks not to try something out of desperation, that will only bring you down, the ones who do succeed in life are the ones who are patient and and open minded, who dont jump the gun, who arent looking for an easy way out. We got ourselves into drugs and into this mess so there is a price to pay, those who realise that are the ones who tend to succeed. Good luck and may Lord the go with you (though am not religous hehehe but its just a statment).
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Avatar_m_tn
  Hi thanks for your comments, im guessing your from the us? This is 19 weeks without sub and 8 days without ldn,  i think i will not be trying again. For me ldn gave me a good boost for a few days. But concerned it would make things worse in the long run.
The deep depression has lifted now, (really hope it does not come back, the rest of paws i can cope with). Its so nice being able to laugh again. Still a little up and down in mood, but i think my brains repairing itself, thats one of the other bad things about paws, you feel it will never end and you will be stuck like this for the rest of you life.
   What happened with your paws? im surprised you got paws off 0.25 mg, just shows how strong subs are. How long were you off subs before you started taking methadone? I did a 1 year taper from meth, from about 30 mg, the taper was really hard, but no paws because i went so low. So maybe your best doing a very very slow taper off meth, giving your brain time to heal. For me subs seem to mess with your mind more than meth.
Good luck
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experiment continues, day 10 without ldn, felt energy levels little low last couple of days,and paws anxiety increased. But still no deep depression, which is the main thing. I will see what happens tomorrow. I might try ldn for 2 days and see if it gives me a boost tomorrow.
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Avatar_m_tn
Hi guys. Sorry I missed a few posts. I wouldn't say I had intense PAWS but I wanted my endorphins to be a little boosted, so I tried the low dose naltrexone. What I figured out was the more you take it the more depressed and PAWS you will inherit when you stop the LDN. Its not really viable to take something which you only makes it in the long run. The reason why your getting PAWS and anxiety again is because the LDN is wearing down you, it can take up to 2 weeks for the LDN to leave your system, believe me I know, so when that happens you are in a worse state then before. If you take LDN now your holding yourself up. What I realized was the LDN stops working after few days and then you wake up only to find out your PAWS have been extend. Believe me I tried the experiment and other things and realized time is the best healer.

Your only being naive and silly to keep on using the LDN again and again. In hindsight you use the LDN again to give you a little boost, and that booster only lasts a few days and then your back to being in a depressed mode again, how is that recovery dude? how does that make sense? even if you was to take LDN everyday for 2 or 3 weeks it will stop working and you would still feel in a depressed state.  The anxiety your having has nothing to do with endorphins by the way and nothing to do with LDN, it may be pshycological when you come down from the LDN but the LDN does not decrease anxiety, that I can promise you. I can give you assurances that you will feel anxious and in the heart of PAWS again if you use the LDN

. I use to take my dose every night for the first week, I couldnt sleep properly, then I took my LDN in the mornings so I could sleep at night which I did, but then I felt more foggier then before (pre-LDN state). Trust me don't be silly and waste your weeks and months relying on the LDN, it will only extend the PAWS, thats what I worked out for myself. It does not give a kick start to long term opiate users, particularly methadone and suboxone, for thee opiates it takes time and mixing something like LDN only is playing with fire, that I can assure you.

LDN can stay in your system for a long time too, thats why your feeling anxious now, even if you haven't taken it for weeks on end, but taking it now will only make you feel the same and longer too, your simply increasing the duration of PAWS man. One or two days of boost is no way worth it for 2-3 weeks of PAWS, which is what LDN does. I actually kept a diary while on suboxone and LDN and I still remember the days when I felt good and bad.
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Avatar_m_tn
The main point is the more you digest the LDN the more you have to rely on it, that gets you easily dependent on it, but another important issue is that every time you take the LDN albeit few days or even after few weeks you then tend take more and more because it stops working, you can take the lowest LDN or the highest LDN dose and it will still not work. The brain with its endorphins can only go up so much. The worst issue is where you feel your in a fog while on the LDN, and when you stop it takes many days to feel a little better again, the more you digest the LDN the longer it will take to recover when you do stop the LDN, that makes sense right? thats how I experienced it and I knoe 2 or 3 others who have the same experience as me.

Anything you take will eventually stop working and give you after affects. In this case with the LDN it stops working even if your endorphins go down again, it stops working very soon and the hardest part is it takes longer for your brain to recover when you stop taking the LDN. Its a no win situation really. I got my LDN from a compouding pharmacy.  Basically this is how it goes:::  you digest the LDN and your endorphins seem on the up for a day, the next day you take it you feel in a fog like state, that keeps happening the more you digest the LDN. But when you stop the LDN it takes days and even weeks for your brain to be back to normal, and I mean normal by where it;s meant to be, whether endorphins are low or up but where they are meant to be, but the endorphins will be lower if you stop the LDN.

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Avatar_m_tn
Thats why I suggest to people not to take it for more then 1 or 2 days, even if it works at all, but defineltly not to keep using it as every LDN that goes in your body its 3-4 days of PAWS hanging in your system and brain. Why digest something which will only make it harder and harder and longer to recover to base point? having a endorphin boost for 1 or 2 days  is not at all viable and civil to recovery because there is a price to pay when you stop and that is the duration of recovery is put back, but also importantly the LDN stops doing what it did the first time if you keep digesting it, even if you take it now and then your still setting yourself back.

This was my experience with it and its an honest experience. I can lie and say it did work and am all recovered but that wont be fair on addicts out there. I know addicts want positive stories but hey its better to know the truth then be shocked later. Dont worry give yourselves time and you'll recover, but dont keep taking the LDN, even after months because you'll be more anxious, depressed, low and with less energy every time you stop or every time you digest it.

As my doc said be a man and tough it out, thats how you recover. If you keep having the mentallity of looking for a pill to ease your discomfort then you'll never recover and is basically doomed. I look at the people who did recover by toughing it out and who made a stance to never take any opiate or pills to help with withdrawals and PAWS. Those are the folks who recover and make it to the other side. We all can learn from them.  God Bless guys.
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Avatar_m_tn
Thanks for your comments, I felt ok for a week after ldn, but the last 3 days i have gone back down, a little foggy, especialy in the mornings. My idea in using ldn was to get some time away from subs. It will be 20 weeks on monday. Really thought i would be better after 20 weeks, the length of paws is the really annoying thing, its like your life is on hold.
You can not measure improvements in weeks, but months. Rls has nearly gone, gi track improving, im not sneezing as much, so things are improving, but very slowly.
   I think i might take your advice and not take ldn, and will just have to see what this week brings. The conclusion i have come to is the only thing that works is time for sub paws.
    You forgot to tell us how your getting on. Your back on methadone right. Can i ask why your back on methadone, was it because of the paws. One thing i found about methadone i got no paws, but maybe that was because i tapered down to a very very small dose, so did not notice it to much when i stopped. But the taper was the hard part.
Good luck bob
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Avatar_m_tn
Hey dude.

I went to methadone because to be honest I went through bit of stress, yes I know it's no excuse but I had some side issues, thats another point I want to mention. As one of the above poster said try to eliminate any side issues you have albeit financial, relationships, marriage, employment, people, places etc, any of this can seem detox worse then it really is. I was actually fine otherwise. I didnt really get long hard PAWS but like I said bit of stress made me go on methadone. I will do as you suggested which is to taper long and slow.

I think the reason why your havng bit of PAWS is because of the LDN leaving your system, when you take the LDN for 4 days and then stop it will take another 4 days for your endorphins to be on the level, thats the thing about LDN, if you take it you might feel alright for few days but you have to make up those few days when you stop the LDN, is it any wonder you dont get tons of stories with LDN in conjunction with sub or meth PAWS. Another reason why your in PAWS is because you stopped at a high dose of suboxone right or you tapered too fast. In my experience a 4mg dose of suboxone is 5 to 6 months worth of tapering, so if somebodt stopped at 4mg or tapered too fast to 0 it will take them 4 months to feel on the level. I think thats what is happening with you. But also know this that when you was on suboxone you was like a zombie, you wasn't yourself, you was on an opiod, so now reality has it you think it's not normal right? well maybe it is? what is normal? maybe being on suboxone for so long has made you forget that what your feeling now is actually normal, but comparing your time on suboxone you must think it's not normal. You get my drift here? maybe this is how you meant to feel. Suboxone is some strong stuff man so when you come off it your inevitbally going to feel reality hitting you, and this to you might seem un-normal but infact its reality and how sober people feel. Have you tried any cardio? jogging? I have read around and concluded that vigerous excercise is the nearest cure to withdrawals and PAWS, particularly from suboxone. So try doing that if your enable. Keep posting.
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Avatar_m_tn
   ldn up-date, Felt ok for a week after ldn, thought my paws was going away. But it has come back again, seems to be at a similar level to before when i started ldn. Feel a little bit more foggy, especially in the morning. Motivation, mood and energy low again. I will see if things improve this week. I cannot believe im still not good after 20 weeks. Really annoying.
    
  Hi Smuel,
               So maybe exercise and time is the only real cure for paws, i get on my bike for an hour every day and gym at night, i find this can increase my mood. You mention maybe this is how we are meant to feel, noooo this is paws, i still have rls, but just when im trying to get to sleep now, still sneezing a little.Which tells me my nervous system is still out of balance.
  Good luck with your meth taper, how much are you on now? i found my meth taper more physical and subs more mental. Both were hard but in different ways.
  P.S
How long did you have paws for before you took meth again. In my weaker moments im tempted go back on 0.4mg subs, untill my brain recovers.
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Avatar_m_tn
ldn update,
                 My mood and energy have increased a little today and the fog has nearly lifted.
So it looks like for me ldn gave me a boost, but like any drug, You have to pay the piper when you stop. Not sure what would of happened if i had stayed on it long term, but not willing to take the risk of putting my paws back. Its not that bad now just a little rls at night, small amount of anxiety, mood a little low but not depressed anymore, so looks likes things are improving, just very slowly.
  Its funny how ldn can put you in a fog, i have read other people have this symton to.
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Avatar_m_tn
20 weeks is really nothing compared to the years we took drugs/opiates/suboxone/methadone etc...We really cannot expect to recover in 6 months or even a year after a long term use of opiods, particularly long ones such as methadone and suboxone.

My energy, mood and over all wellbeing always increased a little when I took the low dose naltrexone but it only lasted a few days, on top of that it made it worse when I stopped. Seriously folks your only wasting your time and resources in taking the LDN as you will need more days and weeks to recover once you stop the LDN. I know this from experience trust me. You rather let yourself naturally come back on the level then a substance, espeacially when it's only going to set you back. Why digest something which you know will extend your PAWS, why digest something which you know will stop working after a few days. Those few days of boost will stop and then you have to start all over again.

20 weeks is not even half way through to be honest considering how long you was on substances, so we cannot expect to be shocked that we ain't recovered, it takes time and all the time we digested drugs and opiates it will obviously take us a long time to recover too. Years and years of drug use affects our receptors so like I said you cannot expect to recover in less then a year, we gotta be realistic. But we can do things to help our recover such as changing our mentallity, being strong minded, be nice, being open minded, doing some excercise, occupying our time, spending time with the girlfreind and family. I say am lucky in that sense as my Girlfriend has always been there, we also got a daughter together too and we both got lucrative jobs too so that helps, am still in my early to mid 20s so in a way am way better off then some folks older then me. We got our own house too and we don't have no financial worries or anything, so this aids recovery, reduces PAWS. I notice if I work out I don't have any restless legs.

Please note I've quit methadone and suboxone, I think I made a typo error when I said am on methadone, am not. I went on methadone, then suboxone, then LDN, then a short acting opiate and then took some clonidine-lofexidine. I know if I was feeling sorry for myself, if I was alone, if I had no job, no beautiful Girlfriend, no Lovely Dauhgter, no income etc then my PAWS would have been worse. Trust me things like this make a hell a lot of difference..

.PAWS also depend on the traits-personality we folks have, for example there are folks who are very tempremntal, very stupid and bitter and tend to suffer longer PAWS, there are people who relapse t oo easily as they are weak minded, there are people who are overweight, insecure, really shy etc and this gives them lot of anxiety and low mood..It all depends on an individual..My hardcore PAWS lasted only a few weeks to a month, but like I said I changed my mentallity, I keep busy, I dont take no medications, I do sports, I research on the internet etc all this helps PAWS tremendously..Try to reduce any issues you have in life so you dont have to worry about anything!
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Avatar_n_tn
I took the lose dose naltrexone too. Didnt help too much for me. I do agree it does make paws a little longer, anything does I think. I took a ultra low dose and messed around with the dose for a while, something like 4.5mg of ldn and 0.5 ldn. None of it made any difference, it decreased my sleep and made me more depressed. The most I got was half hour of endorphin rush and then down from there, its worse when you stop because then you have to start all over again. I would stay away from ldn if I was anybody else. From experience it doesnt really help at all. Am from the UK and I made ldn from 50mg of naltrexone tab. Am back on subutex now and tapering again, before I only tapered to 1mg, I had paws for about 1 month and thats where I jumped on ldn, am going to taper low on sub and excercise, thats my only hope.
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Thanks for your comments, i have decided not to do ldn again. Feel ok now. Still have a little paws, but seems to have nearly gone. The depression has gone, which was the main issue for me. So it has taken 22 weeks to feel better. Thought i would never get better lol, seemed to go on forever. How much sub are you on now?
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Hey man how you doing now?
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Hi All, I wanted to post a up-date about my progress, its 14th November, So 10 months since i did my subutex detox. WOW what a change, lifes good again, energy back to normal, depression gone. Its taken a long time, but it shows your brain can recover, it just takes a long time if your on the subs for a long time. I would say im 90% better, i can sometimes feel the paws a little, eg a little foggy in the morning, but its in the back ground, So maybe a month or 2 for it to clear up completly. But now its not a problem.
Oh i did want to say, its best to keep away from alcohol, which can make paws worse because it stimulates simular pathway as opiates in the brain. Oh and never, never dabble, I had one bag on the 6 month mark, made the sneezing come back and i could not get a good night sleep for a month. So it shows how easy an addicts brain can be reactivted.
  So there is light at the end of the tunnel, it very very hard, but it can be done.
Good look all.  
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Hey..How long did you do the LDN for?

Do you believe LDN can make a difference?

Did you take anything to help your PAWS/depression?

congrats of being clean..
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just read every post guys..very interesting topic well done
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Avatar_m_tn
Yes i tried ldn but it does not really work long term, found time and exercise only work. But it can be done. Just takes a long time.
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Avatar_m_tn
Wow just checked the dates, it's been 1 year and 8 months since my detox. Just wanted to let people know, paws does go away, it just takes a lot of time. For me about 1 year.  With the first 6 months been bad.  
A warning to people over the last 3 months I started having a "treat" once a month. But I have found it brings mild paws back for a week or so. I quite enjoyed my treat time hehe, but it's not worth the price you pay, with 1 or 2 weeks of mild paws. So I have decided to stop that. And let's be honest it's a very dangerous game to play, it shows how easy it would be to slip back into old habits. And how even when you feel better, your brain has been changed, which allows it to convert back into to an addicts brain very quickly.
So what have I learnt, you can recover from paws, it just takes a long time. For long termers I would say about a year, with the first 6 months being quite bad, eg like not seeing the point of living bad, but you know it's just the drugs talking, and you can get through it.
I would be interested to hear about anyone else's experiences of paws and staying clean.
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Just read all the long ago posts from 2011.  I live in US and am 65 days clean from hydrocodone 20-30/day 10 mg.  I know you all don't say things the same, but I think addict to addict you know, ha!
I am also 37 days off suboxone.  I am laughing and getting mad and feeling feelings again, but my brain hasn't told my body.  I am extremely tired all the time.  Doesn't really matter what I do, have to sit and rest every 10 minutes.  I have always been a good sleeper and still am awake at 3 a.m. & often on this web site!  I take vitamins, amino acids, melatonin, and on and on.
Nothing touches it.  Also, started a gentle cleanse and now my kidneys hurt and I'm having headaches. (that actually started b4 starting the cleanse)  I have had blood work done 3 times since getting clean and all looks good.  When will I be able to go to sleep again normally?  (normal is just a setting on your clothes dryer, ha)  I'm figuring that my kidneys are just trying to flush all the crap they are finally getting out.  I drank tons and tons of water while using and took milk thistle to protect my liver.  I am drinking less water now, but am trying to be aware of drinking more.

Caffeine doesn't work anymore either.  Happen to you or anyone else?
OK...I know we're different in our speech techniques.....but my addict brain works the same as yours.  You made me soooooo grateful that I quit taking suboxone when I did.  
Thanks for going back and posting after so long.  
There will always be someone with more "clean" time than us and always some one with less.  Meaning we help someone every time we post.
If I were you, and I don't remember if you said how old you are or not, but I'd give up the treats.  Withdrawing from opiates is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life!  Blessing to you UK friend!
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Avatar_m_tn
Thanks for the reply, to answer your questions I'm 38 now, my sleep pattern did not start to I'm prove untill the 6 month mark and then slowly got better. A good nights sleep then was 3 hours.
I can relate to the no energy, that to started to improve after 6 months. The only solution I found was exercise, it would be hard to get going, but after the first 10 mins it was not to bad.
Ohh becarefull with the caffiene, that might be a cause for the headaches.
Keep at it, you will get better, it just takes time. A good guide line is 1 month for every year you have been on it.
Oh your right, it's way better not to have any treats, hehe a very dangerous game to play.
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