methadone taper

my fiance and i have been together 3 years now.  he is a recovering addict from about 100 or so pills a day(before we met), and has been on methadone for a little over 3 years now.  it's been really tough, becuase i really was kinda prude about addictions, having only done some stupid **** back in highschool.  needless to say i have learned a whole lot in our time together.  unfortunatly he has an EXTREMELY addictive personality (and i don't say that lightly), and has relapsed on me 3, possible 4 times.  for the most part i have learned signs and symptoms of relapsing.  i have stuck by him, even though i am pretty much dead inside from what has gone on.  our relationship has suffered tremendously and it will take me years to trust him again.  we also have two children together.  he is tapering off methadone and is at around 70mg (i believe he was at around 200 or so at his highest).  i really don't get a lot of answers out of people or searches, and i would like to know the "norms" when someone is tapering.  he pretty much falls asleep standing up, doing dishes, acts slightly disoriented, and sometimes his eyes look fisheyed(not focused).  is this normal...what stuff can i expect, and should i be worried?

[hellc@mst]

dont sound like hes tapering to me.Sounds like hes wasted.I hav recently stopped mdone myself and lack of sleep was and still is a major prob.So if hes falling asleep standing up(nodding)hes gotta be smashed.I never got confused disorientated or fisheyed either.Neway i dropped 5mgs pw til i hit 50mgs then reduced 2.5mgs pw til 22.5mgs then i went to dtox to finish.
take care.
regards J

[sassypnksox]

he says it's from lack of sleep...some days are good, some are bad, and some are terrible.

[NewLeaf]

Sorry about the blank post. Sounds like my son in law on methadone who must have relapsed because we found syringes, etc in the room. I would be wary and if you can find out for sure if he is still taking his methadone dose daily.

[sassypnksox]

he takes a transport bus every morning and his family (who i'm extremely close with) takes him on the weekends.  he can stay awake for some time...but falls asleep so easy...is there a way i can test him?  i know they do ut's, but they don't show soma's which was one of his d.o.c.

[NewLeaf]

ssypnksox
What are soma's?  And if ANYONE out there knows if it is typical to come back form methadone dosing and go back to bed totally crashed is normal would be very helpful to both ssypnksox
and me because that is the pattern my daughter & her husban have every day. Thanks

[sassypnksox]

they are muscle relaxants  i believe.  he usually gets sleepy about an hour or two after he gets home

[wait2long]

it sounds to me that your husband is spending his days/nights working at getting as high and wasted as he can...he isnt tapering...sorry to say...my husband takes methadone 40-50 mgs daily, he works full time (hard physical labor) he has herniated discs in back and neck, 1 knee already operated on, time for other knee to be fixed too, he has scar tissue build up between his ribs...we have 3 children that he spends alot of time with after work, helps me around the house, mows the lawn.  etc...you  get my drift....he does the same thing at night when he finally  sits down to relax, he just zonks out sitting up, but i think that is from actual physically being beat, along with the combination of the methadone, but that is at the end of the day...not all day long, i sincerely think your husband is not tapering and is on a extremely high dose.  there have been times that my husband pulls his back out so the doctor tells him to take a couple of extra methdone, he will do that for about a week70-80 mgs (very high dose), but when his back is better and its time for him to go back to his regular dose, he is cranky, irritable, short tempered, no motivation or ambition from taking less methadone...that usually last for a week or so before his body adjusts to the lower dose again... if your husband was tapering...i would expect to see irritability, crankyness, short tempered, withdrawn, no motivation or ambition to do anything, just plain unhappy and miserable...i know everyone reacts to their meds differently...but what i get from your explanation, is a man who is taking what he can to continue to feel buzzed... if there is anything i can do let me know, or just to have someone to talk to....i will help with what i can...support is what you need....peace and love

[LettinGo]

Tapering is probably slow enough so he is having WD's.

[LettinGo]

Sorry, I meant tapering is probably NOT slow enough.... sorry

[sassypnksox]

so is that what might be causing his behavior?

[hellc@mst]

not likely.spontaneous sleepiness isnt a wd symptom.I dont mean 2 be cynical but i was on mdone for 13 years(i was 18 when i started) and i only eva exhibited behaviour like yr fiance when i was smashed.Incidently im sure Soma is an hypnotic like halcion,nitrazepam or midazolam.Soma mite hav a synergistic or potentiating effect when mixed with mdone producing the symptoms u describe.

[sassypnksox]

should i call his meth clinic and get him testedfor like everything?

[LettinGo]

do you know for a fact that sleepiness is not a sympton methadone use? I know it is hard to sleep during useage, tapering and WD or am I completely wrong? Thanks

[hellc@mst]

i dont know.Thats probably a good idea but im not comfortable advising you to tattle on your fiance.Dont they test him regularly neway.I think u said he has been on mdone 4 3 years.Does he still pik up daily or does he get wkly/monthly take homes.If hes on daily s after 3 years there is sumthing amiss me thinks.They normally keep people who dont play ball on a short leash.

[LettinGo]

The clinic probably won't divludge ant information regarding your boyfriend because of privacy issues but you could easiny tell them you suspect him of using soma, etc.

[sassypnksox]

he's at a new clinic now which sucks and he used to have take homes...but not in a while. and the reason for his dismissal from the old place is still sketchy

[wait2long]

his excessive sleepiness is because his dose is so high , he would be irritable,cranky and moody if he was tapering...hes not tapering, hes wasted

[hellc@mst]

in the SOWS list of opiate wd symptoms(this is the measure docs use to gauge wd severity)sleepiness is not mentioned.Insomnia is.That and personal experience suggests to me that this aint a product of wd.Having said that nothing is impossible just highly unlikely

[wait2long]

it sounds to me that they are all on extremely high dose and loving every minute of it, high doses of methadone do make you sleepy...zombie-like especially if mixed with soma's....i dont think they are doing their part by asking for dose to be lowered to where it should be...although i am not familiar with methadone clinic policies or procedures except they like to get your dose real high...

[sassypnksox]

it sucks cause he really looked good for like a week,but now it's getting worse.  i keep telling him i won't go through it again...but i love him...we have two kids and he truly is a wonderful person.  and i am around him all day...it's just so hard to think anymore

[sassypnksox]

i know he's been tapering cause i talked to his councelor often and wouldgo to some sessions

[LettinGo]

Does the clinic he goes to also have counseling? If so, ask if he would be willing to include you in it, that way you could then ask questions directly to staff at the clinic.

[sassypnksox]

yes, but only once a month as opposed to weekly

[wait2long]

is his counselor in charge of his methadone dose?   how would his counselor know what his dose is??

[sassypnksox]

they have his info

[wait2long]

where does the info come from and who gives it to counselor?  who is is charge of his daily methadone dose?  are they aware he is mixing it with soma?

[hellc@mst]

mayb hes tapering too fast and is therefore looking to supplement his reduced dose with excessive amounts of illicit dope.This is common.We over compensate for the the missing drug.Mdone can offer a compliant user stability and dtoxing can be unsettling.Whose idea was it to taper.If hes feeling pressured to stop by external forces,this can be unproductive.

[sassypnksox]

the docs at the clinic are in charge of dosing.....i'm not sure he's using soma's, it's just one of the things he's relapsed with cause it's not  a benzo and won't show up in ut's.

[sassypnksox]

we allwant him off and away from that place and the unfortunate negative people that come with the territory.  his d.o.c are vicodin, soma, oxy's, valium,xanax, k pins, he's messed with stuff like seroquel too

[wait2long]

regardless if somas are in the house hes most likely using them, they are addictive arent they??? and i think if he was tapering "too fast" he would be in bed SICK as death...methadone clinicsALWAYS put the dose up as high as the patient wants/can handle...if he goes to the clinic and tells them that h is having cravings or urges "to use again"   they will up his dose...

[sassypnksox]

there aren't any drugs in the house that i am aware of

[wait2long]

oh i am sorry, i thought you said he was taking somas because he knew he could pass his ut at the clinic....

[sassypnksox]

no prob...it's just what i'd assume he'd take.  i just wish i could bug him with a mic and figure all this out. i am already the psycho g/f because of everything now.  i used to ***** about people who acted like i have to now.  although they never really had an excuse...they were just crazy lol

[LettinGo]

You know, anyone that is dealing with an addict that is not truly in recovery feels like they are going crazy because of the c*** that the addict hands them on a daily basis to cover up what they are doing. based on how you feel would be a good indication of what probably is really going on since someone in recovery should be acting with integrity, honesty and openess.............. just a FYI

[wait2long]

i totally agree with Lettingo....maybe you could get some counseling on your own to help YOU through this...i dont think b/f is being open and honest with you, and he should be if he seriously wants to be clean....    we are here if you need us...

[sassypnksox]

i want to thank all of you for your insight into this....hopefully i wll find out today if he passed his ut for his new job.  and hopefully i am way off base with what i am thinking...although prob not.

[Calzy]

I'm in my 6th mo on Methadone at 130mg and I sleep and nod all day and go home and sleep all night and I am not using other meds. I know my dose is to high causing this and i am lowering it now. Does your b/f have any trouble speaking when he looks pie eyed. When I took to much soma it affected my speech and I would stumble around some. Make sure you get more than 2 or 3 words out of him and see how it sounds. If he is using lets get him back to the good person he was and not hang him here.  

[wait2long]

i dont think we want to hang him? i just think this couple needs some help/advice..i am sure he is a good person. just because he is an addict does not make him a bad person, hey...we are all addicts here...thats why we are here..either because we ourselves need help or a loved one needs help dealing with a loved one that is addicted.  have you gotten your meth dose down? i am trying to get my husband to lower more also... best of luck

[Calzy]

sassypnksox is not an addict and is looking for answers and I just want to be fair to her b/f who may or may not be using on the side. I look wasted most of the day with blood shot eyes from methadone and my ex-wife (still living togeter) is in the same boat as ssassypnksox due to my past actions. She asks if I am using and I say no but she heard that a thousand times. Methadone is a very powerful drug and I dont think you can put a finger on how everyone is to act on it. How about inviting your b/f to post here, he has got to understand your concerns, so if he is straight up or he needs some help than no better place than here to start.

[wait2long]

i know she isnt an addict, she has a b/f that is and is looking for help/suggestions/and advice...i used methadone also...i know when i took my regular dose i was fine...i also know when i felt the need to take more...then i was high and would lie about it...that is what addicts do...that my friend is a fact...when someones dose of methadone is too high they, slur their speach, eyes close unwillingly, fall asleep sitting down,standing up, smoking a cigarette and even driving, nod off in the middle of conversations...i know i have been there and i also see it every day...i guess i am just not willing to live in denial anymore and am trying my best to give honest information, being honest with yourself and others is a big step in recovery, and sassy was saying she just really doesnt know whats going on with her b/f

[sassypnksox]

def appreciate your input...i need all the angles i can look at.  my only thing is, he's tapering and i just don't think he should be like this.  and he's talking to people i don't want him to again.  i think i might tell him to come here though and get some help from actual helpful people.  the place he goes to now is a s***hole.  and he never used to be this "out of it" when i knew he was clean  i just want to know who he really is and not on methadone...it's been our WHOLE relationship.  

[sassypnksox]

i'd like to comment on the falling asleep with the cigarette...it's one of the scariest things, and i am always scared that the damn house will burn down!  he also tends to trust just about everyone which has gotten him in trouble many times...i do have to say though that he does try and has stopped talking to a good amount of people for me.  i just want them all gone and to see him talk to his few good friends and hopefully make some new ones.

[sassypnksox]

quick question: so could his actions be from him upping his dose and nothing on top of it?

[wait2long]

yes, definately...or just still being on too high of a dose wether he is tapering or not...either way you look at it his dose is too much for him to handle...and YES the cigarette thing is very scary, i go through it every night with my husband, its just plain selfish and uncaring of them to do that to us and our children...addicts are very selfish people while still using...i was too

[sassypnksox]

that makes me feel better....and i think i am going to call his clinic tomorrow and set something up to talk to his coucelor with him.  he needs to get out of there and away from bad influences.  if it weren't for our families and severe lack of $, i'd move out to the middle of north dakota or something and away from all this ****

[wait2long]

hun just remember, you arent alone..we are all here fighting addiction, either for ourselves or a loved one...if you want to work this out with him..you have to sipport him and become involved in his recovery, you will need help also...i recommend counseling for you too,,inorder for him to be successful in his recovery he need all the love and support he can get...but only if he is honest and truthful to himself first and you second, he has to want to do this for him first...hang in there, we are here if you need t talk...when you go to his counselor, tell him that b/f falls asleep with cigs, nods off all the time..tell the counselor everything so he can help you both.

[Calzy]

I can't answer your last question sassy but it could be a yes.  wait2long~The first 2 days on Methadone at 30mg & 40mg were the only times I felt high on it. After that I did'nt feel that light buzz and now after 6 mo's I don't call noding off and sleeping all the time being high. When I took 5 or 6 lortab at once and was cleaning a toilet bowl at 4 am I was high. It's being so long i don't know how i am suppose to feel.     I am taking methadone to quit the lortab and if I am geting high than thats not what I am looking for.  I know it does'nt sound good for home boy but I am giving him the benefit of the doubt and just comparing what I am going through since I stopped using. I just thought if sassy asked  her b/f to join us here than we would be dicussing this with him and not about him without knowing all the facts. Sorry but I just like to hear as many sides of a story before I make a comment on a person in a negative way and I came here last week for help in my recovery and I am not trying to get in anyone's face. Peace

[sassypnksox]

i totally agree that all sides of the story are best and i appreciate your input completely.  know too that he has been on this over 3 years now.

[sassypnksox]

i have been thinking some time now about going to alanon for myself

[wait2long]

i really dont think i made any negative comments about b/f at all...and if you dont call nodding off in the middle of a conversation high, then what is it?   i thought i "never" felt high on methadone either, when i was taking methadone i called it "feeling normal"   until i stopped taking it, then i realized that the past 10 months was nothing buy a hazey memory, and i usually only took 20 mg a day....and there is nothing normal about not being able to keep  your eyes open mid-day and almost burning your house down because you fell asleep AGAIN with a cigarette in your hand...  i wasnt looking to get high either, i used methadone to quit a 25-30 percocet a day habit....and you are right her b/f should be the one here posting, maybe sassy will work on him with  that... all i do know and its a fact, is if someone is an addict and they are still using or abusing, then they will lie about it until they are ready to get clean..you cant make someone stop...they have to do it because its what they want.  the first step of recovery is honesty, with yourself and loved ones.  and i am not downing methadone either, it started me on the path in the right direction, but it still can be abused.  Peace & love

[Calzy]

wait2long~I did'nt mean to say "negative" comments, I just meant any comments in general about a person until i knew for sure. I saw on TV last night how a person can write whatever they want about another person and blasted all over the internet and ruin that other person's life or make it difficult for a long time. Thanks for warning me about methadone and I want off that stuff but I'm not sure how i will handle my lortab addiction without some kind of help. sassy~ I would take soma when i ran out of pain killers and i would be a zombie on them with all the symptoms you mentioned before. I would take that when i just did'nt want to feel anything. I think the visit to the clinic with b/f would be great if he is really wanting to clean up and he can add you to review his medical records at anytime.   I allow my ex-wife to know how much i am taking & my UA's. I have 4 children & would never want to lose custody. I hope your b/f has a good relationship with both of your children.

[Savas]

Well, you can get sleepy on methadone if you're on too much. But over two years down from 200?

First, if he's tapering, he's getting clean urine tests into his clinic SOMEhow. Or, he has a legitimate alternate prescription they're allowing (doesn't mean it's GOOD for him).

I was on 70 and until I got down to 25 (over six months) I was falling asleep in the middle of the day.

Also, if he's tapering, he can be having trouble sleeping at night. Although you usually don't have that problem until you get down lower.

Tapering is stressful on the body too. But if he's on a monthly schedule, he should have at least two weeks of feeling normal.
If he is using other drugs, it's most likely a benzodiazipan. People on MMTP tend to play around with that kind of thing, or alcohol.

[Calzy]

Savas~ Thats a good point about the prescription. I have rx for xanax and the clinic allows me to have it and show no dirty ua. I also have a rx for soma that i never picked up and i am going to ask at the clinic if I could have the soma on the list of accepted meds as well. sassy you said the clinic showed no soma in your b/f last ua, so if he had a rx for that they would not say either way about it.

[sassypnksox]

he said his dose is back up to 90 and i believe that it may be why....but i never get the whole story from him and we both need to learn to deal with each others lesser qualities...like my inability to trust him and think the worst...i hope alanon will help

[wait2long]

did he say why he went back up to 90?

[sassypnksox]

he said something (vague and short of course) about jackin it back up because they took him or rather he had them take him off the k-pins (which he asked for in the first place b/c i think he just doesn't know how else to handle any difficulties other than turn to pills).  i try to help him through things with alternative ways of dealing and learning to change your mind set...but i guess once your mind is set?  he even got a prescription for zoloft (which i admit i went on for 2 months to get me out of a really bad hole b/c nothing else was working).  but he took it for like one or two days and said it didn't work.  he always wants that quick fix...but life isn't made to be that way...everything takes work.

[wait2long]

well that was his problem right there!!!   a very high dose of methadone WITH klonipin (klonopin) is extremely dangerous, and i hate to say it but alot of people on methadone will take a benzo (klonipin (klonopin)) because it makes the high about 6 times better, so he is still using and abusing... he shouldnt have had his methadone dose upped because of going off klonipin (klonopin)...he should have tapered off the klonipin (klonopin) slowly and kept his methadone the same....unless he is getting used to the k-pin and needs more methadone to get high with now?  sorry to say but i would be worried....how long has he taken k-pin? if he has been on it for a while be careful...people have had seizures from stopping a benzo suddenly... actually i am quite surprised that they would even give him a prescription for k-pins while on methadone, did he get it illegally?...if abused it can be deadly....i am sorry hun...i think you need to go to a few meetings with him...take notes if you have to...but you need to find out what is going on...for your own well being and your children also....i am here if you need to chat...

[sassypnksox]

they did prescribe it to him there...and they handled giving him on a daily basis too...but then i got ballsy when i heard him the bedroom with pills and found that he had gotten a prescription for valium too from an outside doc.  i made his old councelor aware and everything, but that was in the middle of his transfer to the new place, so really it did no good.  and he said that he flushed the pills and i really hope he did.  they have taken him off the pins for a little bit now...but i never knew that it affected meth clients like that.  now i know why everyone and their effin mother try to get them.  i think it's major BS too that they even let 1/3 of the people get it.  i really had a feeling that he wanted them b/c they would make him high too.  i just can't wait to talk to his new councelor.  this is soooo aggrivating!  i just want to see him...and me as well happy for once and "NORMAL".  and i've been good cop and bad cop...i even attempted being in the middle cop.  nothing seems to work

[sassypnksox]

i'd like to thank everyone for their help here...and if there is any advice as to signs i should look for or things i can say to make this all better i'd appreciate input.  he told me today that k-pins are the lowest benzo to take while on methadone because they won't get you as high as the other ones...is this true? cause it doesn't sound so from what wait2long had to say.   and apparently they won't do a taper for 6 months at the new place because it's a rule or something there.  i thought you could pretty much be in control of what you want to do as far as up it or taper?  i know they wanna keep people on cause of the money...but 6 MONTHS till he can even go down any?

[wait2long]

he is lying to you k-pins are the strongest and the longest acting of benzos...and he knows that and that is why he wants them...also search the house i bet he didnt flush the others or maybe he took them all already.  who wont do a 6 month  taper? the methadone clinic???   that 6 month thing sounds like b.s. to me, but i am not familiar with methadone clinic settings...we dont have any around here....   when will you be able to go to clinic meeting with him so you can get some truthful answers?  i really feel for you, although i am an addict also in recovery and know how you feel...my husband uses methadone also, but for legitimate pain, still dont like it....

[sassypnksox]

thanks...i think the 6 month thing might be legit...but i figured that about the k-pins.  the past three days have sucked...he's not as bad as he was when i knew for sure he was messed up...but he just doesn't seem right, and he's hot and cold...one second we are in a screaming match and i'm "crazy" again...and next he has this lovey dovey thing about him...i think normality is a myth! lol  i'm not sure when i can get to the clinic with him...i start back at work, and my schedule is crazy.  thanks so much for all your help!  monday his mother and i are going to an alanon meeting together and i am hoping that helps.  and i think he and i might see a psych for couples counceling too.  

[wait2long]

you might be right about the 6 month thing, i do know meth clinics make you build a trustsystem  with them before they do much more for you.  and i am always one to say yes for therapy...it always helps in some way, but... it wont work if hes not being honest with you hun, hes got to come clean with you before you start the counseling or he will continue to lie, even at therapy.  i KNOW when my husband is trying to b.s. me, we have been together for 18 yrs. this month, and i always go to his appointments with him because even though he takes meth for pain...hes still an addict first, the pain is secondary now...so needless to say but he has no choice but to be honest...LOL!!   i get prescribed xanax and klonipin (klonopin) for agoraphobia with panic and unbearable anxiety (all from my past drug use, i think) and my husband is always trying to weasel a k-pin from me....NOT!!!!!  all i can say is you deserve honesty, and if he is serious about getting clean he HAS to be honest with not only you but himself first by admitting the problem is still there full force...keep your chin up, peace and love

[serenitysaves]

I'm on a methadone taper NOW!!!!  and have tapered before unsuccessfully.    Last time I went to fast because I wanted soooo bad to get off.  I even went inpatient hoping to do it right. was involed in N/A but long story short, I relapsed.  

Now I'm down to 41milligrams from 110 milligrams.  I give your husband credit going down from 200 to 70 that was/is a far road and if he did it without using that's great.

I understand your concerns about being sleepy.  For some reason this time I'm alot more tired than last time.  I am taking some anti-depressents this time, being I've been on methadone so long my brain needs something to compensate the effects of withdraws.  What I'm tring to say is everyones different.  Even if I had a great night sleep, I still have to take a nap in the afternoon.  and by 8-9 I'm also ready to fall over standing up.  I want to stress I've been clean on the methadone for five years, I'm not taking anything not prescribed by my doctors and the methadone is the only mind altering drug I'm on. and I take it as Prescribed.  so it is possible to be that tired on methadone and I'm on a lower dose than him.  I'm not sugar coating him I'm just stateing my experince.  As far as the pin dot eyes goes, that I don't have.

Does he have a release form for you at his clinic?  If not I'd ask him too. that way you can openly discus his treatment with the clinic.

as far as wanting a drug test.  If he won't sign a consent of release form. You could call the clinic and say your a anonioums cilent and think he's using and they might test him.

good luck

[sassypnksox]

thanks so much for your input and personal experience.  it's a whole day of being sleepy though...he comes home, is good for maybe an hour, and then it's like the flip of a switch.  and he is in and out all day long and late into the night.  and he argues with me that he is not falling asleep and that he looks fine when in actuality it takes him like 30 seconds to try and make himself look normal for only a minute and then he looks cracked out again...i just don't know what to think at this point.  but i am on a release for the clinic...but they can only tell you so much.

[wait2long]

my girlfriend does that (well were not really friends anymore) but anyway she always took extras, and i could tell when she was really out of it by her eyes...she would be looking at me, but then it looked like she was looking through me and then she had to concentrate really hard because her eyes would start to shut or roll into the back of her head,   while she was standing up in mid sentence while smoking a cigarette!!!!.... and i would tell her to STOP IT AND GO HOME AND GO TO BED, then she was mad at me because she didnt or couldnt beleive that what i told her about what her eyes do when shes f*&%$#d up, she said i was making it up!!!  and that her eyes dont do that, then i would get accused of being jealous because she was messed up and i wasnt....she is a mess of a person, and i feel really bad for her

[serenitysaves]

yeah, it's only when I'm real tired.  

I wish you the best of luck.  take care of yourself.

[sassypnksox]

i tell him to take naps all the time and it sucks cause i get little help with the kids  and yet he thinks  he's ok to watch them all day.  he tells me and makes me feel like i will always think the worst and that's the only reason i won't let him