question about sub

[mdan9mm]

Hey everyone, hope all is well. This is day 16 for me on the sub and i saw my dr today. among other things we talked about was this website as i tell him i've learned alot of important things about the use of sub on this site and that everyone here truely seems down to earth and really cares about each other, as were all in the same boat, sort of. Among what we talked about was my concern about the  " severe wd's " from the sub when it is finally time to stop. Again, this is only my 16th day on it and im doing 6 mg per day, down from 16mg a day. I'm doing fine, no wd's, no cravings for the hydro's, go to work, play with the kids, pretty much just back to being " normal ' , whatever that is...lol..!!.  I also have been on seraquel and trazadone to sleep since getting out of detox, and since i started the sub, I have NOT taken ONE of those to sleep as im getting about 6-8 hrs a sleep a night just from being on the sub. I'm still taking the 20 mg lexapro for the depression though, but thats it. My dr said im getting too worried about the wd's when i stop (from what i've learned from you guys). He asked me then to post a question on how did those of you on the sub, finally stop (taper off) as im sure it worked wonders for most of you, AND that most of you did not experience severe wd's ( at least i hope not !! ). Like i said its only my 16th day and i know ill be probably be on it for a while longer, and i dont have a problem with it as long as I feel good, and i dont have any craving to use again. I go to a one on one with my dr once a week, and am going to start those group meetings hopefully in a few days. Thanks, Mark...

[bluespence]

Hello! I don't know mucj about Sub, but from what I have read on here a lot of people have stated the w/d's from Sub were worse than their DOC and some have said they should have just gone c/t. But again, I have not tried it, but I have thought about it because I know when I do get off my DOC I will want some help!

Night....

[mr.lucky66]

I hope you can keep your sub use short. Most or more than half of the people here who have been on it had tough times after sub. I hate to see people on vicodin get on long term sub. It's like trying to put out a fire with gasoline! This is a big$$$ making industry and is heavily advertised on the radio. It's not a miracle way off drugs, it's just another drug. The best use for it was as a short 5 day detox drug given impatient.. all the best

[wannabefree330]

I too am on sub, about the same amount of time as you.  While I worry about what w/d will be like, especially w/all the bad experiences i've read here also--I know it was the only way for me to stop using opiates.  I tried the taper, tried ct, nothing was working and my use was escalating.  I have however, read from some who were able to do a very slow taper-as is suggested by my doctor, and either had no w/d or very mild (as in some sweating).  I'll I started at 32 mg per day, and at discharge was supposed to take 8mg 4 times a day.  Once I got home, I was too sleepy as the med slowly built up in my system and I didn't need as much.  I'm now down to 8mg 2 times a day.  Even with that drastic drop, I have had no w/d symptoms.  I think as long as we are on it for the shortest time possible, we will taper without problems.  Try not to think too far ahead-you know how our minds work!!  Just worry about today, and tomorrow will take care of itself.  It's great you are being open and honest w/your doctor.  VERY smart!  If you begin a taper, and it becomes too much, he will prob make it so you don't drop the dose so quickly, or drop it as much (as in mg).  Think of where you were 17 days ago, and where you are now.  My life has made a huge change for the better.  I don't hide in my room, i spend time w/my kids, i'm more productive at work, and I'm going back to the gym....I actually care about myself today, and I'm sure you do too.  Keep it up, and keep asking questions!!  Send me a pm if you ever need to.

[worried878]

Doctors that prescribe sub are often pro sub....hoping u r moving forward and not backwards...i would be happy all the time on 6 mg of sub everyday myself...thing is we have to learn to be happy with our own coping mechanisms....be safe

[Sarah1083]

When I got off the sub after only 21 days the withdrawels were so bad I was back on Lorcets within a week.  The withdrawels for sub last double time than
withdrawels from painkillers.  Just be careful and good luck.

[ochooked]

Hi Mdan ---  I have to concur with Sarah ----  I too was on Sub for only 21 days ---  Thought I had found the perfect painless way to break my addiction ------  I tapered to taking only a crumb and had NO idea of the agony that awaited me.   There are many others who have posted and some like Sarah were on it for a short time and others like Refusingbondage were on it for over a year --- All had the same result ---  It is so much harder to come off of than Hydro, Oxy, or anything except Heroin or Methadone.  I hope you will stay and post your own experience AFTER you try to come off of it.  Perhaps you will find a way to express your feelings about it that will help others who are considering using it.  I am now at day 55 since my last crumb of Sub and until yesterday I did not know what a day was like without W/D's.   I know that he!! hath no fury like trying to divorce Sub.   Wish you all the best --- Please continue to post.

[refusingbondage]

In my opinion what sub does is mask withdrawal for however long you use it.. at some point during sub use your become addicted to it and then you suffer coming off it.  The only reason its able to mask w/d is because its an opiate.. and with opiates come addiciton just like any other opiate.. Its a very useful tool for some and I give it its credit for helping addicts stop their mental addiction and drug seeking ways and allows time to mentally live without your drug of choice, but physically its far worse to come off of.  A slow sub taper is what I did, 2mg ever month or every other month and at the end it was the most difficult detox I have ever experienced... physically and mentally I was unprepared for what the sub detox entailed.. but thankfully Im feeling a lot better at day 47..however its been 47 days of withdrawal physical and emotional.. I dont think you would find 47 days of physical symptoms with vicodin withdrawal

[Shelwoy]

I keep reading the same stories, and I will keep saying this- Suboxone has a very low success rate when used in a rapid detox situation.Significant brain changes occur while on opiates that takes allot of time and hard work to heal from.
If you have taken opiates for a year or more, do you honestly think your brain and body are going to heal and go back to normal in a month? We have abused ourselves with drugs that alter our lives significantly- there is no easy answer or cure.
I really wish doctors realized that they are causing a great deal of harm by trying to use Sub as a quick remedy.It is a tool that should be used along with a well rounded recovery program.There are no guarantees, but putting your addiction in remission will have much greater success if you are educated on Suboxone correctly.Go to www.naabt.org There is a ton of useful information on Suboxone and a forum of people who have used it successfully.

[refusingbondage]

This question is completely not argumentative and purely curious.  Can anyone tell me what proof is there that your brain heals on suboxone?  Or chemically how your brain can heal from an opiate addiction while taking an opiate??  Surpressing the high you get from opiates is a fantastic way to deal with addictive behavoir, but while taking sub you are still feeding your brain an opiate.  

[liscamdave]

Well, you may not get too many responses that will make you feel better about the sub. To be honest, I would say that more on here don't praise it as much. The w.d from sub can be 10x's worst then that of your original DOC. But it all depends on how long you stay on it. And how much you are taking. I did a 21 day treatment with sub but was on it for about 27 days total. I started out with 16mgs a day and by day 3, I was down to half that, and so on and so forth. By the 27th day, I was taking less then 1mg, every other day until I could sleep for about 4 days without the sub. Sub has a 25-36hr half life. So when you stop it, its still in your system for another 36 hrs. And you will still feel its effects for about that long, then any left over w.d will kick in. So when you stop, make sure you wait a good 3 days, before you start jumpin for joy that you by-passed the w.d. I had w.d, not as bad as before, but I had it and it wasn't all that great. But It was way more managable then anything else.

In my own opinion, no one can eliminate w.d altogether. No one.  But you can reduce its wrath. Just taper to as lil as you can, and do NOT stay on it long term. The people who have had the best expereince with the sub, are those who only took it for less then a month. Good luck;....

[laurel453]

i  can see the point that refusingbondage is making..in fact, i was wondering just about the same.

i've just been in that page and ok, it's similar to any advertising page for  whatever  the stuff and full of successful stories like if it were some magic discovery of the century  ( i gonna believe they are as true as the ones from people rejecting it after taking it ... ) .

and yours, shelwoy is one of the succesful ones, but you're still on it after a year , are you ? may i ask you why ?  or it's just that one has to be depending  on sub for a long, long time to recover from opiates while on  sub ... i don't understand it since you are still needing an opiate replacement...how can we talk of something succesful until you'll live without it ? if i can ask it...

[refusingbondage]

I was a walking advertisement for suboxone while I was on it for 2 years.  I thought it was a miracle.  I found my sub doctor through the www.naabt.org site when searching for detox centers, I found that site and thought - wow.. in office.. I dont have to check in to detox .. and no withdrawal.. im in.  I was very close to the sub doc as I saw him once or twice a month for two years.. I am not saying sub doesnt have its place there are still heroine addicts I know who I recommend sub to all the time -- because it does help you learn to live without your drugs (except for the suboxone) -- but without expecting it or even knowing its happening to you,you become very addicted to sub and it has a much stronger hold on you than most other painkillers and this seems to be something the naabt.org or suboxone.com or the sub doctors do not fully explain to their patients.  Just my opinion though.    

[laurel453]

and thanks for your opinion : )  .

i can agree too  with you that as you say the sub can be a really good tool for  lessening or avoiding the physical wds of the strongest drugs. And also i think that every experience about whatever need some time  after its use for understanding better the results and consequences and  the real success of it....and that  can be  infered  from your experience and what's your opinion now of it.

at the end ( that's my opinion too here :) ) and  speaking about  other pain killers addictions, it seems to me that   being on sub has been  a  too tortuous path for some people and even meant a worse and longer detox in the long term  and one can not only explained it  by the  little knowledge of sub that the doctors have. It's a too easy way out for the sub stuff and its implications. i think so.

[ochooked]

This is a very good thread and I hope it gets bumped back to the top.  Almost all of us felt really good about using it after reading all of the positive stuff on the web sites that promote it.  It is only on sites like this one when real people who use it come and testify what it did to them, that the true nature of Sub comes out.  I have had a lot of PM's from those who told me that "the doctor can't be wrong, must be something wrong with you".  Most of the positive things people have to say about Sub are those who are still on it  ----- it is not until you try to get off it that Sub shows its true and wicked nature.   I cringe every time I read a post that says someone is going from Hydrocodone to Sub.  It is really jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.  Well, all we can do is keep sharing our own stories and perhaps save some the agony we went through.  All the best.

[wannabefree330]

for those of you who have had the he!! from w/d off sub.....would you choose to continue your opiate addiction, or get on the sub?  Saying you would "try something different" doesn't count.  IF you could go back to the day you switched to sub......would you?  Given what you know now?  Or would you have stayed on your DOC?  

Is it safe to say that 100% of those prescribed sub, who use as prescribed and taper as directed, have these awful experiences?  

[laurel453]

and why not asking also about relapses after being on sub, used as prescribed and taper as directed too ?  are there any ? this is another thing i find myself curious, sorry.


but when i came to think about your question,  isn't it  a little bit strange ?, all of us wanna be free of addiction...if a stranger  had kidnapped me and took me away and hold me until i was  free of my addiction and someone asked me the same without the choice of  " try something different"....  I can swear i'd rather be free of my addiction, oh, la lá i would even marry him afterwards , that would be a sort of syndrome of stockholm question considering what addiction means for us , something like that .

[laurel453]

correction ( again in me ) : a sort of syndrome of stockholm answer.. ( sorry ).

[refusingbondage]

Personally for me and in my experience if I could go back I would have went to 10 day detox like my original plan and NEVER gone on sub.  That is my experience only though.

[lovepat906]

My son kicked methadone using a slow three month taper on suboxone. His WDs were minimal- never missed work.He tapered down to 2 mgs fairly quickly and then dropped .25 every 5-10 days. To do this he got the 2mg tablets and cut them with a pill cutter into tiny pieces( 1/8 of the 2mg tab). After he was down to .25 a day for five days,- he started an every other day skip, Then every  three days, every four days and every five days.
The WDs he experienced lasted about a week and then cleared up. He is off over three months now- and despite chronic back pain- has not gone back out.
I am not sure why his experience was a more positive one than some here. I know he was really ready- he had done a lot of the addictive habit breaking work during his two years on methadone. Also he was on for longer than the quick detox- but not so long as some. He also started an antidepressent about three weeks before his final jump.
One thing for sure- he made a plan and stuck to it. It was long and low and it worked.

[Shelwoy]

The reason I am still on Suboxone after a year is because I am in a treatment program, that is teaching me how to live life without the insanity of drug seeking behaviors that have almost ruined my life.Also, because I have a anxiety disorder that was misdiagnosed numerous times, and after some 30 years, I have more stability than I ever have in the past.
I have taken it upon myself to get as much education on addiction  and my personal disorder as possible.I find that my success is measured by the way I live my life, not by how long I take a certain drug.The day will come when I will one day be off of Suboxone, and it may be tough- but I would have no problem taking it indefinately if it has helped me to have the life I do today.I do not intend on taking it forever, and the program I am in believes in long term tapering- nothing they have done so far has proven to be negative to my recovery, and I have trusted the process all the way.

[Shelwoy]

oh, and by the way... Congratulations on your thirty days of being clean.

[mdan9mm]

Ahhhhhh so there are some positive stories on how the sub helped, with minimal wd's, thank god they werent all negative !! I agree with Shelwoy on her outlook about being on the sub, as long as it is helping her lead a " normal ' life and she not using, than be all means why not be on it ? This is only day 17 or 18 for me, and like my dr told me, " if i had diabetes and i had to be on medication to treat that for an extended time / or life, i would do it ? right ? I agreed with him. As long as im not using, nor have the urge to use, and i'm feeling good, like my old normal self than why would i opt not to use it ? I know what almost everyone here said about the severe wd's when it is time to stop, but did they, and please dont take this the wrong way or be angry with me, but did they follow their  dr's advise, treatment plan, take the sub according to the directions, go to weekly meetings, therapy, group meetings,and then taper while being in close contact with their dr's ? If so then I apologize and guess i have a long road ahead of me and i really do appreciate all the advise all of you have given. I am tapering down like i said i would, started at 16mg a day, now im down to 6 mg a day, and today i took only 4mg which im going to do for the next 2 or 3 days then taper down even more...all the best to all of you.......Mark.

[refusingbondage]

I guess at the end of the day it is a very personal choice and decision based on your specific needs.  Regardless of anyones opinions on suboxone or even methadone, the bottom line is that most of us take these drugs because we want to change our lives and be free of our addiction.  I would never discourage anyone from doing whatever they had to do to get to that place in their lives.  I do feel a bit unlucky when I hear positive sub stories from people who have used long term AND gotten off sub long term without too many problems --because it wasn't that way for me..I followed my doctors advice to the tee.. he also had me talking to a psychologist he worked with.  There were months when I struggled with tapering, like going from 8mg to 4mg and would see the doctor right away when that happened.  He told me to up the dosage for a few more months.  A bit of mild withdrawal came to me with every taper.  When I finally got down to 2mg he said I should be fine quitting that cold turkey.. but after 5 days of severe withdrawal I went to see him and he said cut it down to 1mg.  I quit after taking 1mg for about 4 months.  The day before I quit I left his office all teary eyed cause I was so happy it was over - I got a big hug, a big pat on the back and a promise that I would have very little to zero withdrawal.  I can't say he lied cause he is a good doctor who treated me well, but he was not fully informed.  Withdrawal is a price we have to pay for being addicts.  Sub is something that works wonders to give people (myself included) a sense of well-being and normalcy in their lives.  At the end of the whole thing, having used drugs, having used sub and having quit sub, I think that beyond the physical he11 of sub withdrawal and the length of time that withdrawal lasts, for me it was purely the mental part of the withdrawal - the depression and very dark places I went mentally over the past 48 days.  Ive used for years and detoxed many times.  I know withdrawal and I also know that depression comes with any detox.  I have never been a depressed person but have experienced it at other detox times.  But the entire sub detox was different for me and I relate it to the long term sub use and have spoken to others with the same.  However my experience will not be everyone elses and I truly believe that we are all just trying to get clean and live differently and I commend and applaud all of us for making these decisions and doing everything we can to stay in it.  Best of luck to all.

[laurel453]

thanks for both, your experience and the congrats !

shelwoy, i've always take as a big truth the sayin that there are not illnesses but patients ( i'm not sure about my translation but you know what i mean .. :) ) i can see from your words that sub is helping you with your life not only with your addiction to opiatesin other aspects  and as long as it's being good for you, i can not and don't want adding more, great  then . i can understand very well. yeah.

and good luck , yes , the best luck  for all of us in whatever we choose for us ...)

at the end, we are all trying to do our best ...

[girlybuff]

I took sub for about 17 ays or so. I started off at 12 mg then went down to .25 mg every other day for 3 rounds.  My withdrawals were VERY minimal.  I had valium and that was able to really REALLY help.  I got up every day and felt like **** for a week or two but it was NOTHING compared to the numerous times I tried quitting my 30-40 10mg perc a day habit.
I believe from MY experience that because I stuck to a taper, which again, was easier to stick to than the taper from a full agonist opiate, stayed hydrated, took vitamins, exercised (and I HATE to exercise) and did the crumb every other day thing, that it wasn't that bad.
There is a site heroin-detox ******* (can't put it in the exact format) that has forums specifically for people on and coming off of sub that you should check out.
I hitnk that your best best is to get off within a month and get down to the lowest possible amount you can handle.  I didn't feel ANY of my dropsi n dosage until I got to the very other day dosing.
BUT, if you get on and off within a month and don't do anything afterwards you will inevitably find yurself back inthe same boat beause NOTHING CHANGES IF NOTHING CHANGES.
Sub might help physically and it might work better for some than it does for others BUT if you don't work on the core issues of why you wound up having to take it in the first place, you WILL relapse and the second time is SO MUCH harder than the first.  I know everyone LOVES to say that relapse is part of recovery but it doesn't have to be and I hope for you it isn't.

[BAdams7848]

It has been 3 weeks now since I stoped taking Saboxin (suboxone) 40mg. 2 times a day for one year.   Dr. said to cut down 20 per day for 4 days.  I am still so very sick shakes, cold sweats, hot flashes and debelating depression.  Was on Vicodan for 2 years before.  Have been on this sight for 1 and half weeks which is the only way I know about saboxin (suboxone) w/d and I think everyone.   I guess what I am asking is it ever going to get better?  I am so desperate at this point.  Cannot eat except juice or ice cream. Vicodan only took about 2 weeks which I have done too many times.  Took 1/2 tramadol last night for the restless legs.  Is this a bad idea?  I've tried to take all the advice on this board can anyone help me at this point?

[theeagle]

Now are you certain that you are taking 40mg of suboxone twice daily?  Thats over the ceiling of the medication.....I believe that the max effective dose is at 32mg....that would mean that you are taking 48 more milligrams than will even be utilized...Something is off base here.....your SubDoc should know that the medication is to be dosed once daily...and thats an important part of the therapy according to our SubDoc... Post again or PM me ... I would like to discuss this with you.............

[TrayCee]

sorry but I think your confussed.  Its not even possible to take 80mg of Suboxone a day.

[theeagle]

BTT

[BAdams7848]

Yes, sorry you are right and I was wrong.   I took 8mg, 4mg. twice a day.  I have been trying to do this without support of my doctor due to lack of insurance but I  made  a appointment tomorrow morning.  The w/d are still bad but no sleep in 3 days, cannot eat anything.  I am 58 years old with high blood pressure so decided I better see her.

I thank God for finding this sight on my computer.  I know I could not have made it this far without all the people going through this.  I plan to share it with my doctor tomorrow.

Thanks to everyone and I just hope everyone will just hang in there.