My daughter has been snorting heroin for 3 weeks. She desperately wants to get off but has been unable to taper herself off to get back on suboxone. What are the best ways to do this as an outpatient? What are the safest and most effective drugs to use?
I don't know the answer to the question. Lot's of folks come here and I'm sure someone will know more about it than me . I used H in the past but never snorted it. I would say a N.A meeting would certainly help. If she does get back on sub. Please encourage her to ask for the short term version because the wds from sub are pretty hard too. Any chance of detox in hospital then rehab?
I am praying for you both.
heroin (and most other opes) wd is quite a bit easier with benzos. Valium in particular helps because it is a great skeletal muscle relaxant in addition to being a sedative. It will help you sleep, calm you down, help control some of the leg cramps and constant restless feeling. Just slowly top up until you feel comfortable.
Yep, buperenorphine HCL is one of the two active ingredients in Suboxone, the other being naloxone which is there to prevent abuse (i.e. ppl slamming the Suboxone pills into their veins).
Can u use suboxone for withdrawal or only buperenorphine?
Will you still get really sick if you use Valium? What about using Clonidine, Phenergan, Vistaril, Melatonin?
Do you think you need to be hospitalized to wd from heroin?
Use the Suboxone sublingual tablet. You would have a hard time finding pure buperenorphine anyway (sold under the brand Temgesic, and only in injectable form I think). Suboxone is designed specifically for the purpose of opioid withdrawal management and not as an analgesic pain killer as Temgesic is. Get her back into her Suboxone doctor ASAP. He will advise you as to how to proceed. As I said, she needs to stop the heroin cold turkey and go without it for at least 12 hours, better if she can hold out longer. Certainly she can manage 24 hours of dopesickness.
Valium only alleviates some of the symptoms of withdrawal. You still sort of feel sick, but you stop giving a **** to some degree. Clonidine can help as well, but I usually find that docs under-prescribe it for sufficient relief. I find a good dose is 1x0.1mg tablet (that is a 100 microgram tablet) for every 50 pounds of body weight twice daily. Be aware that her blood pressure will be Really Low at this dose, so take care. Also, I advise against taking clonidine for longer than 7 days as it can result in rebound hypertension if stopped abruptly, so if she takes it for longer than a week, taper it back slowly. Not sure about the other three meds, I will look into them. Melatonin, isn't that the stuff in turkey that helps you sleep? (I recall that from a Seinfeld episode hehe)
No, she does not need to be hospitalized. Opioid withdrawal is not dangerous. She will not die (although she might feel like she will). I really feel for you. Is she young? It must be a total drag to see your child going through this. I really hope that she gets through this. Having a supportive person like you in her life is a big help. Feel free to ask anything anytime, I will help however I can. I wish you and your daughter well.
Your knowledge and support are greatly appreciated. She is 19 yo and is living with an addict, plans to come home just to withdraw and then move back with him. She has been to rehab and NA before so she must know that she will not be able to stay clean in that environment. I don't know. I got the meds for her, so I guess I am enabling. I am not willing to give up after losing my husband to addiction at age 39. I am frightened that she will die too like some of her friends and she does not want this as much as me. Besides heroin she is addicted to bad boys. Is there a remedy for that?
How do you know so much about meds?
Sorry to hear about your husband. I also hate hearing about young girls getting into that sort of life, I think that when the life cycle of addiction starts so young it is that much harder to break it as the foundation of their adult lives becomes so rooted in addiction. My last gf was 10 years my junior. She began using at 18, just popping pills for a couple of years. The area where we are from had a very industrial economy (coal mining and steel making) so there were loads of opioid scripts around what with all the older miners and stuff taking it for work accidents, etc. Her last bf, a real class act, got her to try injecting for the first time. They split shortly after and that is where I met her. I actually tried breaking her of her habit, but in the end I wound up feeding it through my own extracurricular endeavors and because of my own habit. This has always filled me with a profound guilt that I suppose I will never shake. As a result of that I wound up just giving in to her addiction all the more. Guilt is a terrible thing.
How do I know about meds. Well, I learned about opioids as a matter of necessity of sorts. I have a couple of science degrees (Comp Sci and Math) and took a fair number of organic chemistry related electives. I really enjoyed chemistry. After developing an addiction I eventually got sick of paying retail for my habit so I began researching opes in my spare time. I spent loads of time in the library at my old uni plowing through anything and everything opioid I could find. Here in Canada we can buy low-dose OTC codeine tablets, and after some research, I learned that one can use any base opiate (opiates being the natural alkaloids present in the poppy, the two main opiates are morphine and codeine) and synthesize any other opioid (opioids are anything that will bind to our opioid receptors, so while all opiates are opioids, not all opioids are opiates if you follow) from them by various chemical processes. So I took to separating the codeine from the tablets and using it as a base to produce other opioids. It started with just plain morphine. From there I took morphine to dihydromorphone HCL (Dilaudid) and also acetylated plain morphine to produce the semi synthetic diacetylmorphine (heroin), quite trivial actually. I procured most of my lab glass and equipment on Ebay and I eventually had a significant capital investment in my lab; it eventually filled an entire room in my apartment with overflow in a third room. I also grew poppies in order to harvest the opiates thebaine for the synthesis of oxymorphone, although I later learned to synthesize this via a roundabout process of binding oxygen atoms and stripping hydrogen atoms from dilaudid, although it was somewhat expensive (because I needed some obscure reagents and ordering them got sketchy). I then moved on to fentanyl and some analogues of fentanyl, largely because my and my girls tolerance was such that heroin and dilaudid was just not cutting the mustard so to speak. Did you know that fentanyl is one of the very few opioids that is not converted into morphine after crossing the blood brain barrier? Sorry, I just find that interesting. (see, I am still consumed by this to a degree :P) Eventually this "hobby" became so all consuming that I had little time for anything else, I would get home from work, hit the lab, stay in there till late at night, sleep, and do it all over again. Meanwhile my girl would be watching TV waiting for "new inventions" as she called them from the lab. Our lives were quite sad at the end of it all in retrospect. In the end, a relative dropped the dime on me; the thing is, this person did it just to be a busy body, not out of concern as they professed. Then one morning at about 6 am, I awoke to screaming, shouting and guns in my face. Party was over. Most other meds I know about are either something related to opes, wd, etc. I really do not know much about meds outside of the spectrum of opioids. I did toy with the idea of med school, but I doubt now that I would ever get accepted with my record, I certainly would never be allowed to practice. My case drew some level of notoriety because my set up was rather sophisticated. It was a real horror show.
Anyway, I really hope that you can get your daughter sorted. And yeah, her being with a user is Not Good. For her to really get out of the lifestyle requires a complete change in lifestyle. She has to make the decision to break that cycle and yes, leave those people behind that she has been associating with. I have been talking to my ex recently, tonight actually she was by for a short while, just talking and stuff (I asked her if I could post a few pics in my profile, she OKed it laughing at the nickname I put on her "Queen of the Junkies". I really miss her in ways, in other ways I don't. She is on methadone now and is not using, but I see that she really misses it, the lifestyle. She seems sort of sad in a way, and I think she longs for the "good old days". We were talking and laughing about things that happened, and she spoke of relationship/opiated era like it was some sort of magic time. America had the 50s, we had my lab. :P I miss her, but I am also scared of her. She is a good kid, I hope she keeps it together but I just don't feel that from her. bah, I dunno. It makes me sad I guess.
Yeah, sorry for rambling on there, I guess I have a lot on my mind myself. Please keep me posted on how you guys are doing. As I was saying, it kills me to see young girls like that caught up in this lifestyle of ****. It really does. Hang in there, stick by her and get her through this (and get her to skid the Bad Boys as well, trust me ;) ) Take care girl.
Just wanted to say , I also have a daughter in recovery...Thank god she wanted it, because that is the only way..She was in rehab for almost 5 months..She has totally changed her friends, and others that did drugs with her...It is so hard to see your child go through this..It you ever want to talk , PM me....Also, all the meds hydoxidine s/p?
(vistaril) all work great to help...But it is best to have a doctor to help you with this...I pray that you find peace, and your daughter finds soberity....Good luck and let us know how things are going.
Okay, my daughter came home last night. The last time she used H was at 4 pm yesterday. She does not want to get back on suboxone for some reason. Her sub doc feels like people with opioid addiction have a genetic defect in their opioid receptor which never will go away. He thinks that op addicts have the opportunity for normal lives if they stay on it forever, like a diabetic with insulin. I may have told you that already. What do you think? She has taken clonidine and valium so far. I also have phenergan (nauseau) and hydroxizine(runny nose). She feels yucky and her legs are moving around but I don't think wd is in full swing yet, do you? How long do the symptoms last?
I enjoyed hearing about your story. Do you go to meetings? Did you ever? My only addiction is my daughter's addiction. I feel like I failed my husband and I don't want to lose my daughter too. I know that there is not that much I can really do. I did not know that fentanyl is not converted to morphine in the brain. I thought it was a form of morphine. Is it more potent? In the US, it is used in a patch and absorbed.
I hope you are able to meet a new female who can appreciate your stregnths and is not in the drug culture.
Fetanyl is over 80 times stronger than morphine and is one of the hardest opiates to w/d from. Believe me I've been through it!
I found that lyrica helps with the leg aches greatly if you can get some of that. Also immodium for the other problems. And actually immodium helps some of the overall effects as well as it mimics opiates in the blood stream without transferring into the brain.
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