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staying clean no matter what...
by AmberHunter, Jun 07, 2003 12:00AM
there are times in our lives that staying clean gets really, really hard. i understand that i have "pre-programed" myself into using substances as a coping mechanism...
my sons dad died and i have had a really hard time... i was in a really nasty custody fight for my son at the time that his dad died and it has just made me crazy. at one time his father and i were like best friends...
i know i can stay clean NO MATTER WHAT b/c i have gone through all sorts of life stuff and not used... but once again, for a few days i drank and i just don't know why i keep doing this... i mean, i KNOW why but it just makes me feel so frustrated...
i am thinking that going back to NA meetings may be what it takes to make me feel too guilty to use... and then again i think, well, i drank but i didn't use any drugs so it is ok... just do it in moderation. and i CAN do it in moderation for a little while, but then i generally reach a point where it gets out of control...
anyhow, this is what i wanted to post about. i done F'd up again... but other than that i am hanging in there... i seem to have drawn a line between drinking and using and i know that is not a very positive thing to do...
*picking self up and dusting self off*
amber
my sons dad died and i have had a really hard time... i was in a really nasty custody fight for my son at the time that his dad died and it has just made me crazy. at one time his father and i were like best friends...
i know i can stay clean NO MATTER WHAT b/c i have gone through all sorts of life stuff and not used... but once again, for a few days i drank and i just don't know why i keep doing this... i mean, i KNOW why but it just makes me feel so frustrated...
i am thinking that going back to NA meetings may be what it takes to make me feel too guilty to use... and then again i think, well, i drank but i didn't use any drugs so it is ok... just do it in moderation. and i CAN do it in moderation for a little while, but then i generally reach a point where it gets out of control...
anyhow, this is what i wanted to post about. i done F'd up again... but other than that i am hanging in there... i seem to have drawn a line between drinking and using and i know that is not a very positive thing to do...
*picking self up and dusting self off*
amber
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So why not skip the NA, and go to an AA meeting? I hear that they are a little less judgemental and/or fanatical than the NA crowd. Just a suggestion.....
I hope that you're doing OK with the *Hard* situation that you are dealing with :)
With love- RH
My sponsor lets me make all decisions on my own after going thru a process (by my choice if i consult her) of decision making better than just immediate gratification etc.
Love,
Suz
I am sending you two round trip tickets and I will be waiting at the airport. LOL The Twins fantasy thang! JK Bmac
anyone going through Opait w/d and need my help please email me at ***@**** i will do what ever i can to help...STL......you can find ligh at the end of the tunnel...Jack
I went through a similar situation. Fought like cats and dogs with my ex over my son and when he comitted suicide I completely fell apart. I had been clean a couple of years when that happened and I immediately wanted to throw it all out the window and get hammered, for a long time.
I've been clean awhile now and when my life gets chaotic like it has lately, I still want to use, hell, that's why they call it addiction. I'm no saint, I admit, nine times out of ten, it is still my first impulse to reach for a bottle, drug or other self destructive ways to calm myself. And I can't say I never will, even though the consequences I know are usually steep.
But glad to hear you picked yourself up and dusted yourself off, relapse is all a part of recovery. Hang in and take care.
Hi all, please let me introduce myself. I have poste but I am the anonymous one. I am Debbie as mentioned.. 34 and male (ha kidding). Right now an almost homeless singer songwriter but doing ok. Happy to be w/ding though it is really hard. Only three hours of sleep and some pain this morning. Doing ok now. This board has helped me considerably as the W/d process has been so difficult but information found herein has given me the mental satisfaction of knowing I was just one of the crowd. Thank you so much. Quite a knowledgable group. Please accept my thanks and this introduction.
Best to everyone---Deb
sorry! i stand corrected. please accept my appology!
keep an angel on your shoulder
kip
I went to the main page of MedHelp and began digging through the different support groups to compare this bunch of ******* addicts to the other "normal" people.
What I found was nothing more than astounding. While "ALL" the other groups probably have as many members, 99% of the time, the only person that responds to their need (crisis) is the doctor. OCCASSIONALLY another member of that board will respond.
What does this mean? Maybe nothing to some. But to me, it means that people care about others here. They are open to sharing their own PERSONAL experiences in the hope that it helps another. An incredible thought: Helping someone you don't really know.
I'm proud to be a card carrying member of AWW (Addicts World Wide). Just think about how much better it would be if everyone treated others this way. Not just addicts, but everyone. I know Hippie has thought of this concept well before my rantings here.
Peace,
Methman
Love to all of you!
Lately (and I know this is such a stupid thing for me to do since I have HepC) but I've been drinking a little bit as well. I don't drink to get drunk and pass-out but I do catch a buzz. I guess I'm a 'social' drinker, or at least, that's how I used to be- but I just know I shouldn't be drinking! For me, especially at night, I just get bored plus my girlfriend has just turned 21 and she wants to do the bar/club thing. Some nights when we go out and I'll only drink 7up or Sprite, but on some occasions I'll drink a couple beers (3 to 4 is my limit, so I guess that's more than a couple, *grinning again*). I don't know, I tell myself, 'well this is not as bad as doing what you were doing' but still, having hepatitis and drinking is really dumb! My problem has always seemed that once I detox off heroin, I subsititute that *void* with alcohol. I know this is not healthy at all, but it has always been a problem, or for me at the time- a solution to stay clean, 'well, I'll just go get drunk!'. I'm working on this though, and when I go back home I'm gonna be staying with my dad for 2 months and he's a recovering alcoholic (10 years clean) and regularly goes to AA so maybe his good and sober behavior will rub off on me... I dunno, with me it's always something sometimes...
On another note I saw a dr. yestarday for some deep depression that I started to scare myself with. He gave me xanax and paxil. I have no experience with either. So far I have refused to take either for fear of its consequenses and am hoping for a rapid response from anyone with any experience with it.(The dr. asked me if I was hearing voices and I had to think about it before I said no). SCARY Any help is much appreciated.
YOU ARE LOVED and ARE SPECIAL and UNIQUE --- try to start taking care of yourself and stay away from that ****.
also, don't forget --- your talking to somebody here who is addicted to oxycontin --- which i feel is one of the most evil drugs of all.
anyway, love and peace to you --- you deserve happiness and to live in freedom. i believe in you. whatever you are struggling with, you have it in you to beat it. we all do.
As for the Prozac. . .it's what I am currently on for major depression and seems to be working fine for me. No "high" or urge to abuse it, and no really bothersome side effects that I've noticed. The main thing you want to do if you try EITHER of these meds is keep a CLOSE (and honest) relationship with your prescribing doctor. . .and make sure that he or she is concerned and involved enough with you and your case to be of use to you. My doctor is great, always reachable and very good with his patients, as are many. . .but make sure you don't get one who gives you your five minutes, nods, and writes you scrips. This kind of doc is an "active" addict's dream. . .but for one of us trying to get well, that kind of inattention could be a nightmare.
Peace,
Kurt
Oh, alcohol. . .I've told myself so many things about it. I went from, when drinking heavily, feeling like using drugs was actually BETTER because I didn't get as flat-out STUPID and SLOPPY as I did when I drank to, during my next-to-latest relapse, feeling that drinking was okay as long as I didn't do the narcs anymore. Of course, the problem with that was twofold -- I swear, no matter WHAT other substances I've abused, none have made me as plain DUMB as has alcohol. Too many "dumb and dumberer" thoughts in my head to count. . .stuff like "It'll be okay to drive home, I'm all right" (too many times to count) to "I make Disco Dancing look COOL again!" to many thoughts which, had I followed them to their conclusion, would have likely ended my marriage many, many times over.
Amber, you're in the right place. . .as someone else (who I'm sorry I'm not remembering whom right now) noticed, I too have visited most of the other MedHelp forums here -- and I can agree that THIS forum, by FAR, has the most caring and concerned members of any. You not only *can* get better, you already *are*. . .it's just hard to see the process when you're in the middle of it. Hang in there.
Peace,
Kurt
as you know i too am a logstanding na member.
one of the things that has helped me when life has gotten
very difficult is to get my focus off of myself and on caring
about others, and my higher power. with the na meetings
i am a strong beleiver in if you are going to et involved
then plunge youself into it and GO THE EXTRA MILE.
having my kids around in those type of situations , with all
the responsabilty that go's along with it also helped me
keep the focus of of me.my sponser once said to me that the steps
are what make recovery possible but the traditions is where it is at, meaning we don't get better alone, we need other recovering addicts in our lives, being a good addict i have done everything to keep the focus off me wether it be reading good books, watching lots of movies anything to escape.
working 16 hours a day. but in the end it always comes back
to getting involved with others in some capacity.+
i got involved with meals on wheels taking food to oler folks
who were home bound, and geting involved with terminaly ill
oled folks who's famlys need help, most of that donated time
was spending a few hours sitting with them a few hours a week
of course they are living on deaths door and it give you a mich different outlook on life. I found out about that type of volinteer work in the news paper, they said they put the add in 10 news papers in a 4 county area where millions of people read it. and when i got to the hospital where they run it from
that had only gotten 6 responses , me and my wife being 2 of them. we did it for about a year. any way volinteer work
in the community is being a productive member of society.
well i rambling. just some thoughts.most of us are to busy
in life to do these types of things . peace --hippy
DONER, the xanax if mixed with herion is a deadly mix,
also yhe xanax cuases severe depression if you jsut stop taking it, you have to taper down of it.
as far as paxil a lot of people swear by it , but getting of that also has withdrawls and depression. prosac is better because you can just stop taking it with hardy any side affects.
if you are taking the recipe you have to be carfull with antidepressents like paxil. some people have a bad reaction.
i did not hear about the l-tyorsine issue
a lot of people say 5htp is really good for depression.
and it you take 3 or 4 at night it help with sleep.
the 5htp can be obtained at the vitamine store.
exersize is good to get the natraul endorphines up and running.
keep posting, we are all in the same boat.
peace hippy
since you were in the car accident.
i hope you doing good on you taper.
i know for me i never could taper of pain meds.
the olny one i had any sucsess with was ultram.
but that is another drug most people should stay away from.
i just did not like the way it made me feel , that is why i had sucsess with it.
i sorry to hear you had to quit your job. but it may be a blessing take the time to get off everything and go through the
cold turkey with drawls as soon as you can , the hard part is the 1st 5 days , with the recipe it is a lot easier.
good luck, i'll keep you in my prayers.
keep posting.
peace!!!!! your friend michael//hippy
I did, however, find the GNC brand (as well as a bazillion other brands) of L-Tyrosine for sale all over the web. Also, I failed to find anything on the net linking L-Tyrosine to liver damage. My hunch is that your GNC employee was thinking about ephedra, which was recently banned from US shelves.
L-Tyrosine has been banned for some time in Canada. For what reason, I don't know. But our friends up north make up for it by selling codeine preparations over the counter (O, Canada!).
If anyone else has better info re: L-Tyrosine and the FDA, please post it along with the source. If worse comes to worse, we can get L-Tyrosine from the same place we get every other substance the DEA doesn't want us to have: Pakistan!
Thomas
But I want to emphasize that I could not find anything linking L-Tyrosine with liver damage. Such a finding would indeed be alarming, since the amino acid L-Tyrosine is a part of our daily diet, being present in most dairy and meat products.
Also, let's not forget the NSAIDS connected with liver and GI damage, and, last but not least, the Official Drug of Law Enforcement, alcohol.
Thomas
The paxil and other SSRIs do have the w/d symptoms that are talked about in other posts on this board and other places. It was enough to scare me from taking zoloft. I just don't want to screw anything else up in my life due to a chemical. The decrease in seratonin levels is dangerous if you don't taper very slowly and even then it might be difficult. If you are so depressed that you are having suicidal thoughts then take it. If you think you are handling the situation and the crying or anger or whatever is not getting in the way of your life then don't take it. Remember crying and other emotions are normal and neccesary for walking through our life so even if you spend three days crying most the time this is not excessive depression if it is warranted. It is bad when you are thinking about ending your life obsessively. I hope this helps some and I hope you find comfort in whatever you do.----
Deb sorry for taking up so much space and being so personal.. just a danger I don't want to see another in... God Bless
i still take it.
peace hippy
Just got your post and I hope I'm not going to disappoint you but I'm not getting off methadone; I've been working in a methadone clinic for a little over 2 years, and it doesn't seem to me that as a clinic we have very good collective knowledge about what is helpful for people once they've detoxed off methadone. And basically, not so much helpful for people detoxING off, except "slow down the taper." (which of course is a good idea.but there must be more) So I was hunting around the web looking for that into when I found this excellent forum. So I'd love to hear from YOU about how it's going with you, if you would like. I know this forum is about people helping people (this thread has had such beautiful messages) and I'm into helping my patients. I've had plenty of experience with addictions of various kinds, but was never on methadone.
Regarding L-Tyrosine, I haven't done any research but I remember a few years ago they took L-Tryptophane off the market because of some problem people were having. That's the substance that's in turkey that makes everyone sleepy after Thanksgiving dinner, they say. People used to take it to help them sleep and relax. (I just took my last one recently - saved for all those years.)
Regarding Xanax, I don't think it is a helpful drug for depression, as it IS s a depressant. I see it as having some value for VERY anxious people, but the effect it has had on me has been to make me kind of emotionally stupid and foggy. There was a time in my life when I was very very anxious and I took Ativan (another benzo like Xanax) for like 3-4 years, and I detoxed myself off it VERY slowly, taking only a crumb for the last year or so. It defenitely deadened my emotional senstivity and I'm glad I'm off it. I take a little neurontin now for anxiety, along with Celexa (60 mg.) which brings me to the subject of...
Anti-depressants, which saved my life (along with my 12 step program)... started on Prozac (in '88) and have tried a bunch of them. They sort of have diffent effects, but what the shrinks seem to do these days is try you on one after the other until they find one that works the best, and then adjust you on that. Paxil is just one of the many "newer" anti-depressants (which started with Prozac back in...hmmm. the mid 80's? maybe someone else knows.) Some people hate anti-depressants, and some people like them, such as myself. People vary so much. I wouldn't single "Paxil" out from the others for any reason.
Speaking of Xanax again, it is a drug that people get VERY dependent on, take addictively, abuse, and even deal to each other in the clinic parking lot!! And you can't just stop taking any benzodiazapine without risking seizures. You have to taper off them. I'm not saying it has no use, but better stay away from it, is my opinion. Too many shrinks just prescribe it because people like it - you know, it keeps you from feeling your feelings - but it also keeps you from getting clean, because it interrupts the feeling of life, the spark of life, the joy, the connection with others. And it keeps you from doing good therapeutic work getting in touch with the inner pain people so often use drugs to avoid. So, with Xanax, no pain, no spark, no joy, what's the point, I might as well get high....
That's what I think. But I'm not a doctor, so it's just what I think.
Huiler
Just got your post and I hope I'm not going to disappoint you but I'm not getting off methadone; I've been working in a methadone clinic for a little over 2 years, and it doesn't seem to me that as a clinic we have very good collective knowledge about what is helpful for people once they've detoxed off methadone. And basically, not so much helpful for people detoxING off, except "slow down the taper." (which of course is a good idea.but there must be more) So I was hunting around the web looking for that into when I found this excellent forum. So I'd love to hear from YOU about how it's going with you, if you would like. I know this forum is about people helping people (this thread has had such beautiful messages) and I'm into helping my patients. I've had plenty of experience with addictions of various kinds, but was never on methadone.
Regarding L-Tyrosine, I haven't done any research but I remember a few years ago they took L-Tryptophane off the market because of some problem people were having. That's the substance that's in turkey that makes everyone sleepy after Thanksgiving dinner, they say. People used to take it to help them sleep and relax. (I just took my last one recently - saved for all those years.)
Regarding Xanax, I don't think it is a helpful drug for depression, as it IS s a depressant. I see it as having some value for VERY anxious people, but the effect it has had on me has been to make me kind of emotionally stupid and foggy. There was a time in my life when I was very very anxious and I took Ativan (another benzo like Xanax) for like 3-4 years, and I detoxed myself off it VERY slowly, taking only a crumb for the last year or so. It defenitely deadened my emotional senstivity and I'm glad I'm off it. I take a little neurontin now for anxiety, along with Celexa (60 mg.) which brings me to the subject of...
Anti-depressants, which saved my life (along with my 12 step program)... started on Prozac (in '88) and have tried a bunch of them. They sort of have diffent effects, but what the shrinks seem to do these days is try you on one after the other until they find one that works the best, and then adjust you on that. Paxil is just one of the many "newer" anti-depressants (which started with Prozac back in...hmmm. the mid 80's? maybe someone else knows.) Some people hate anti-depressants, and some people like them, such as myself. People vary so much. I wouldn't single "Paxil" out from the others for any reason.
Speaking of Xanax again, it is a drug that people get VERY dependent on, take addictively, abuse, and even deal to each other in the clinic parking lot!! And you can't just stop taking any benzodiazapine without risking seizures. You have to taper off them. I'm not saying it has no use, but better stay away from it, is my opinion. Too many shrinks just prescribe it because people like it - you know, it keeps you from feeling your feelings - but it also keeps you from getting clean, because it interrupts the feeling of life, the spark of life, the joy, the connection with others. And it keeps you from doing good therapeutic work getting in touch with the inner pain people so often use drugs to avoid. So, with Xanax, no pain, no spark, no joy, what's the point, I might as well get high....
That's what I think. But I'm not a doctor, so it's just what I think.
Huiler
Just reading through what was written while I was writing mine...Regarding Valium...Maybe no one remembers, but Valium is a very dangerous drug, and Xanax was hailed as wonderful when it came out, because it could replace the terrible Valium. They said Xanax wasn't addictive when it came out. HAHAHAH.
I think there was a book called "I'm Dancing As Fast As I Can' which was about Valium addiction.
Huiler
My understanding of the L-Tryptophan banning is as follows: a bad batch of Japanese L-Tryptophan gave the FDA an excuse to ban the entire substance. Once banned, it was in the interests of the big drug companies to keep L-Tryptophan, an excellent anti-depressant and sleep aid, off the market, since L-Tryptophan is not patentable.
However, 5-HTP, 5-Hydroxytryptophan, is available in nutritional supplement stores. L-Tryptophan, activated in warm milk, is metabolized into 5-HTP, which is then metabolized into serotonin, some of which successfully crosses into the brain. As a source of serotonin, 5-HTP is, I believe, about 10 times more potent than L-Tryptophan. To my knowledge, 5-HTP is the most benign anti-depressant and sleep aid you're likely to find.
Taking L-Tyrosine, among other things, increases the amount of adrenalin in your system, which, of course, can cause speed-like side effects. Everyone using it should meter their dosage so they get a lift out of the post opiate WD-mailaise without experiences unbearable "coffee jitters." Some people only need it for a week, while other benefits from taking it on a daily basis.
Thomas
jsaari: the forum only accepts, I believe, two questions to the doctor each day (maybe one). You have to get up at the crack of dawn (EST) to get one in. (I never have.) Just ask your question in the first (top) thread and several of us will answer you. Don't go by the last few days. It's not pretty when the forum immune system kicks in like that, but it usually works. No one will yell at you, I promise. Quite the contrary ...
Thomas
YOU shouldn't be embarrassed! I'm the one always feeling embarrased, like out of place here on this forum. Anyway, forget all that, we're all just people. Regarding getting off methadone, they say, "the lower the slower." The patients that I've had who have had the least trouble with withdrawal have been the ones who have gone VVVEEEERRRRRY slowly. I have one fellow who has been doing well - he has been going down 1 mg every few weeks for a long time. He's down to about...12 mg now. No hurry for him. He's got a bunch of take homes, so it's not a big deal for him to stay on it. He's got his medicaid paying for it. (when you're a self pay, there's more pressure to get off.) He just wants to be sure he never goes back to heroin. To me the beauty of methadone treatment is that it gives you a long time to get your self together in all aspects of your life - your emotional, your physical, your spiritual, your relationships, your support system, your attitudes, and your knowledge about addiction. Most people on the forum don't mention that part of methadone treatment; I don't know why. To me methadone by itself is no big deal - I mean, it keeps you from being sick and having to go out and cop a few times a day and ALL of that - but by itself, it doesn't help heal you. It's the counseling that does that. However, I don't know how good the counseling is in other clinics. I think ours has good counseling (Especially MEEE - LOL) Regarding getting OFF methadone, yes, it is tough to do, but it has to be done over a period of time. Your brain and your body have to adjust to being without opiates. Your brain has to start making its own endorphins, all the feel-good neurtransmitters that have gotten out of whack with long term use of opiates (not just methadone.) The complexity of the brain is mind-boggling - maybe one of our scholars like MrMicael and Thomas 03 can help you out with this. My understanding is that the brain produces less feel-good neurotransmitters because the opiates are supplying it instead and the brain comes to rely on the opiates to supply it, and also the receptor sites are affected (either more of them or less, I forget.) Anyway, it takes the brain a long time to readadjust to normal, so it only makes sense to take the opiate away a little at a time. It's pretty hard to do that if you're out there, because it's not so easy to control that, especially for an addict, but at a clinic, (as long as you aren't taking other opiates) this can be very carefully controlled. At our clinic, they advise you not to go down faster that 10% of your dose at any given time. And then how long you stay on that depends on how long you want to give your body to adjust. If you decrease and then you go down again before your body has adjusted to the previous decrease, then you're bound to feel bad. Is there a reason you are in a hurry to get off methadone now? Cuz if you take your time, you not only make it easier on your body, but you give your *whole self* a break too. Easy does it. (they say!)
H.
peace brother
hippy
I REALLY appreciate your concern, it means a lot that you asked how I'm doing. I'm off of the opiates now, and just going through some tricks of the mind trying to stay off of them (fog head - feel like I need a good lighthouse upstairs to prevent collisions). Good news is I'm tapering my benzo usage by 1/4 or 1/8 every 1-2 weeks, and since I've never liked Benzos (just the sleeping effect they give, which I can get from Soma which for me is not really addictive) is a good thing.
How are you doing? I've been reading the boards, and every time I have time to post, I get to the end and the thread has reached it's maximum posts allowed, so It's been hard to contribute anything lately.
Again, I'm trudging along. I hate always being a downer - tonight my daughter became ill with the stomach flu (it's been AWFUL - I won't go into those gory details but for those of you with kids, you know the drill) and it's been a long evening (feel so bad for her :(.
I know you know it's hard getting used to life without opiates - you've been through methadone withdrawals which is killer in regard to coming off of, but I know you need the pain meds for your medical condition now (is that right?). You have really been instrumental in giving me some incredible words of wisdom that I'll be so thankful for, in addition to so many here. I kind of took a hiatus for awhile in addition to really being TIRED as hell, and not knowing exactly what to say to be of help because I'm feeling pretty useless in the help dept., but know that I'm thinking of all of you.
I hope all is going well for ya - I'll keep up to date on the forum and contribute sometime real soon. My Mom has been in a nursing home for re-hab after a stroke for the last several months (coming back to her home with my Dad soon) and so that's depressing to see her there, as well as my Mother in Law dying of cancer just one year ago a couple of days ago.
Feel free to e-mail me anytime (alexis196637@hotmailcom), and again, I really appreciate your message. :)
Alexis
Huiler - Thank you for posting, incredibly informative.
Thomas - they are right, you are the mensa :) Really nice posts
Alexis - Good for working off of benzos. Be careful withthe soma though. It is metabolized into meprobamate which is addictive. Pretty bad that we don't even have it in a class for addictive medications.
Everyone else - hope the days are going well and if not, remember "Tomorrow's History Starts Today"
Best to all - Deb
We all worry about you (or anybody else for that matter) that has been here for a while, then stops posting for a bit.
You don't have to post and help others. Its not always about contributing.
We just want to know that you are still out there and are doing okay. Even if you are back on narcs or not doing the best, we still want to hear for you as well. Keep us up to date, so we know you havne't just given up on this place or yourself.
I am sorry to hear about your family issues. I know how hard that stuff can be, especially while trying to stay off narcs, or tapering on anything.
I know when my Mom died a week before Christmas it was the hardest, most confusing, time for me ever. Somehow I made it through, albeit by abusing my meds for a month or two. It still affects me like it just happened to this day. Although I have my usage back to what is prescribed. Although I know when my back finally heals it is going to hit me like a ton of bricks when I am off the meds and the "numbing" affect goes away.
For some of us though, we WANT to deal with life and not have to have the numnbing affects, its just the pain that keeps us from having that option.
It is nice to hear from you again. I am gald to hear with what is oing on in your family life you are stil able to accomplish your taper with the benzo's. That is one thing about them. No matter how bad you want off them, it takes a while, no way around it.
Keep it up, and keep us informed when you can. It seems to be a pain now that they have limited the length of threads though and you get some idiot posting post after post of nonsense and then all of a sudden that thread is locked up to no more posts. I don't think there is a post open right now to post under except the newest one!!! That makes it hard to even post at all. And albeit it gets locked up soon too. Then no posting until a new question is alllowed!
Nice to hear from you and to know you are still on the taper,
Chezz