subutex info from my point of view

I believe sub has been given a very bad reputation here and at other forums. If you do a proper induction and follow that by a short 6wk-4month taper stabilizing about every 4-5 days at each dose. subutex/suboxone can be a very affective tool in combating opiate w/d. It must be used in conjunction with some sort of support group of your choosing. all the horror stories are due to the fact that drs dont know much about this treatment and how to do it correctly, people are given way to high a dose at either once daily or many times daily. you can start by finding the lowest possable effective dose when inducting by taking 2mg about every 1hr-2hr until you find an effective dose then take the dose you ended up comforable on splitting that dose into 2 doses example take 2mg if not any better in anhour or so 2 more if still not better in an hr  and so until you feel very few w/d symptoms. say you ended up feeling ok at 8mg take that 8mg split into 2 doses one in the am one in the evening and stay at that dose for 5 days then cut it to 6mg. split the 6mg dose into 2 doses per day for 5 days then 4 mg and so on until you are drug free. I know many people that have done sub this way with great success just a suggestion for those who feel that they cant do this c/t and are scared to death of the sub because of these stories if you have any ? pm me I'd be happy to answer them. I am not saying that others experiences were not as horrible as they say Im just saying there is a way to do the sub in a way that shouldnt result in the tragic outcomes

[TrayCee]

are you speaking from experience?
Did you successfully detox from Sub?

[avisg]

How long have you been off of sub? There are members experiences in the health pages both positive and negative .Everyone experiences seems to be a bit different. I am gald your was good How long did you take it ...How slow did you taper off it ?

[learning2befree]

I am not yet completely off but I have seen people do it this way with complete success I was started at 16mg per day which was way to much and I was on methadone and oxys so I was no light weight. but I have successfully tapered so far to just 6mg split into 3mg doses one in the am one in the pm  from 16mg and it was uneventful I am confident it will go the same as my friends as long as I follow my plan and stabilize at each dose I will be back when I am through to tell you my success story I understand peoples complete letdown, frustration, and anger with this drug if had keep on my drs plan I would probably be stuck on this "miracle drug" for years with no doubt a horrid w/d at the end of my "treatment" I was on MMT for years and I was sure I was cureing myself by following my drs orders to a t.  turns out he was just keeping me at an extermely high dose so I could never get off it. I am sure the sub drs are doing the same thing so I decided to go with a few of my friends plan since they are now completely drug free with no w/d at the end of their treatment. I am just trying to offer another way to go about taking this drug there is one similar plan like the 21 day plan I believe but I dont think that would have been enough time for me. just trying to give some hope for those out there on this drug finding themselves hopeless

[worried878]

the forum seems not to look at sub as a first choice..if that is what u mean?

[learning2befree]

I dont believe it should be a first choice I was just saying that it doesnt have to end up in horrible withdrawl (withdrawal) I am not supporting the drug in anyway. I believe it is a personal choice  It does have a bad rep and for good reason because of the way it is persribed. I just wanted people to know that there is a sencible way to use this drug as an aid to get through detox and start a support system of their choosing I am not singling out anyone/forum or anything like that I just believe it is persribed w/o the drs really knowing how to help the patient get off of it or at the right doses and dosing schduele making  it very hard to use this drug in a way that helps. An 8hr class to have someones life put into their hands is simply not enough  

[avisg]

Learning you are so very right 8 hrs is NOT long enough and there are many many doctors that are all about filling there pockets with money .Luckly they are not all like that .Sub can be a great tool for some people and for others it would be going from frying pan to the fire .... I am gald you are having sucess with it we have had other that have been very happy with sub and others not so much but I thinkyou will get that with any med .

[worried878]

I am glad u r on ur way to cleandom as well....and u sound like u know alot about what u r doing...unfortunately many do not know as much as u and end up in the "frying pan" .like avisg said....it is a great tool if someone follows up with support and changes in behavior ...if not it can be another  problem to deal with....good post

[learning2befree]

yes you'll have that with most every med thanks to you all for responding. I just hate to see so many so angry with a med when it is the drs or the drug company thats to blame not the med itself

[worried878]

agree.....it is not the med itself but the mkoney making stuff that gets many stuck,...new med/well relatively on the market and people r now learning it was not what it was cracked up to be....i actually had a counseler at work argue me up and down that there was no way to become addicted to it since it was a partial antagonist...she says only psychologically addicted and I do not believe that as i have seen too much....i have used the drug when i ran out of my doc/friend would give it to me/ and never to detox so i cant step up to the plate but i know it replaced my hydro buzz....gave me a jolt..almost liked it better...that is why i did not detox with it as i knew i would be off in never nver lad..unless i was really ready deep down to let go...letting go is the hard part..saying good bye...u r no longer a part of my life anymore and I CAN SURVIVE!...for those who cant take off work it is a good thing short term...for those who relapse over and over  it is a good thing even long term/better than chasing the high on the streets...i do not see it it as a better drug than methadone tho as to me they are equal.....glorified over methadone but not true...both will catch u when u least expect it and clench u into their grip...methadone is a better pain relief drug than sub so if methadone is on ur record u r not labeled as an addict,,,suboxone ur labeled if they check ur pharmacy records


all in all..whatever it takes to get clean is sooooooooooooo worth it...if that is where u end up in the scheme of all of this...BE happy and BE free

[hawaiimed]

You said; "I am not yet completely off but I have seen people do it this way with complete success I was started at 16mg per day which was way to much and I was on methadone and oxys so I was no light weight. but I have successfully tapered so far to just 6mg split into 3mg doses one in the am one in the pm  from 16mg and it was uneventful I am confident it will go the same as my friends as long as I follow my plan and stabilize at each dose I will be back when I am through to tell you my success story..."

Would you mind telling us for sure about the people you have seen succeed?
Apparently there aren't a lot around that has whistled through it here. Maybe because they succeeded, they arent on many forums if any.

I will say that IMO, I felt the same way you do when I tapered down after about 4 months or so, to just a few mg a day. There was no problems whatsoever.

That isnt the case now that I am on 1mg and less per day.
It has been a year and half, with a good 4-5 months on this low dose.
You know, the time seems to just roll by in a haze, because I have been pretty miserable for a long time, with the malaise described here; side effects have gotten worse.
Fatigue, fatigue, no motivation, depression, sweats, confusion.
And yes, the "heebie jeebies" after 24 to 32 hours or so from last dose. Big time.
Very frustrating to have to take another little sliver.
Seems to me that I need at least .75 mg just to stay in my full life, and that is a struggle.

So yes, please let us know how you do once you get down to 1mg and less.

Not to put you down, I love hearing success stories, because believe me, I want to be one.

[worried878]

I do here it is best not to shout from the roof tops till u get down under 2 mgs.....most people only needed 2-4 mg in the first place....crunching under the 2 mg or as stated here3 the 1 mg mark is where pe3ople literally sweat the stuff....I have bee helping a friend taper from 24 mg,,,no sweat until 8...a bit to 4 but no work missed/alot of psycholical stuff really...then going under 2 hit her hard.....she freaked out so bad she went back to 24 mgs.....sub has a ceiling effect and doses over 4-8 mg are really placebo they say...mg for mg it can never compare with methadone....it is the crumbs/shavings and the evrey other day stuff where people freak...most addicts could not taper well from their DOC and now they are asked to do this like it will not "hurt"   and it seems as if it does.....what is ur experience?

[learning2befree]

  



Hawaiimed-the people I know that did get off it with no w/d were not on it longer than 6 months and had a stong support system to be more specific regular attendence to NA. my friends do not belong to this forum and I am sorry they dont. I think everyone needs to hear/believe that there are success stories I can not speak from my own experience as I said but i've seen it happen I will keep you all updated on my progress till the end. Im not shouting from roof tops yet myself but I have faith that this will be my final attempt at this and it will go way smoother than any other.
worried878-24mg was an insane amount and I feel for your friend he/she was screwed by whom ever perscribed her that dose and she/he was most definetly mislead I am not trying to advocate just tell some that there is success out there to be had if suboxone is what they choose as a means to get clean. people just need more information about this drug that doesnt come from people trying to get rich off it, drs & drug companies alike. it just needs to be done differantly from what most drs do they arent properly trained and in my opinion dont really care if people get better as long as they make their $ and the drs that do really care have no idea how to use it...so far my taper has been uneventful I will let you all know if it becomes that way

[worried878]

yes...for 3 days she could not leave the house she was so overmedicated...her doctor told her she would adjust...and she did finally////the whole time i am like "why"    why adjust to an amount of medication that is making u sick and lethargic...but she followed his orders and after a week or so she could take 24 mg without getting sick...she was an 150 mg a day oxy user....i know there r good doctors out there but we also know there are bad ones prescribing this stuff...the companies lack of educating physicians and their urge to sell larger doses to people is what is making sun a  bad name

[hawaiimed]

I just went to another site that was posted about and where they have a "tapering" section, and you are right.
there are posts from people who have gotten off successfully without too much trouble.
Here there is currently some who had a lot of trouble and still got off and are experiencing improved PAWS day by day.
On the other site, the theory by some of the advisors is that if you are having trouble with lower doses, it means that your brain has not "healed" sufficiently from the DOC yet. They say sub allows that healing for most, and then dropping is smooth in your taper and stepping off.
Yet they say, some will never have the brain balance and must be on something like sub longer if not indefinite....
I guess they would tell me to up my dose for a while, since I am feeling crappy mostly over the last few months on 1mg/day? for awhile and then try again?
I've been on it for 1 and half year already.

I think i should ask about what I read somewhere here that sub IS an opiate, and is still creating those lapses in brain function that they say sub is supposed to allow you to heal from....

[ochooked]

I wish you all the best in getting totally clean.  Many doctors (and sites) promote Sub as a long term (like in life time) treatment.  I am always amazed, however, that almost all of the current users of Sub are the ones who tout it so adamantly and are so convinced that it is the greatest thing to 'cure' drug addiction.   Now, how many of these same users, who LOVE it so much while they are on it --  actually return after they are off of it to tell just how wonderful Sub is then???  Please do not take offense -- it is just that many of us have heard this so many times before ----  And we also were the ones who were singing the praises of Sub while we too were taking it ------ When we finally tapered down to a crumb and then a crumb every other day and then jumped --- Our opinions about Sub changed.   I for one was doing the same thing while I took Sub --  But when I finally tapered and quit and was still having horrible Withdrawals over a two month period -- I realized that I was not seeing the whole picture while I was on Sub ----   I hope that Learningtobefree will stay with us and report along the way of being free ---  I notice that very few of the ones who sing the praises of Sub while they are on it ---- no longer join in the chorus after they quit.  The Health Pages and post in them about "Members Experiences Coming off of Suboxone" is a must read ---  As I have often said - Let the buyer beware.  Hey, still a very good conversation of debate on this site - where it belongs and for the most part, everyone is well received here.

[jessejames31]

here's where i'm at..  i took methadone 40mgs/day, for a year, for an addiction to 160mgs/day of oxycodone. i tried to taper, tried c/t, even tried to commit suicide overdosing on librium. none worked. my dr took the class to prescribe suboxone, started me on 8mgs for 5 days, dropped to 6mgs for 5 days, 4mgs for 5 days, and 2mgs for 6 days.  actually my last dose is under my tongue right now, so i'll have been on it for 21 days, witch from what i read is long enough.  anyway, let me get to the point, i think it has alot to do with fear. maybe that's sound crazy but i have to believe that my withdrawals will be minimal.  if i get scared or think they'll be horrible, then they will. "mind over matter"  -start the blasting, lol        -jessejames

[jessejames31]

also, i leave for rehab on dec.4th. it's a year long program, so i wont be able to update my symptoms on this forum.  but i will when i get back..  -jessejames  

[wildwoodone]

I started taking Sub 16 mg a day after a year of 10 10mg vikes a day.  I only stayed on the sub for a little over a month and tapered down to 2 mg a day before I jumped on Thursday.  I have had hardly no withdrawal and definitely better than what i had with the vikes.  I have only taken two benadryl, a sinus pill and some motrin the past couple nights and slept well.  I also worked 8 hours a day the past few days so I think that helped but I would recommend sub so far to anyone.  I realize I am only 48 hours out but so far I feel good!

[ochooked]

Thank you wildwoodone for sharing your experience with Sub --  Wish you lots of luck and NO W/D's ---  Please stay and keep posting --- we need more input from those who have a positive experience with  Sub.    Jesse--- don't expect or wait to be "Blasted" from others on this site.  All of either live in or have lived in a glass house and we learned a long time ago not to throw rocks.   Almost everyone who posts on this site is respectful of the other opinions offered and very few have ever really blasted someone for holding a differing opinion.  All the best.  Good discussion of Sub here.

[refusingbondage]

This is a very good discussion.  I do enjoy reading sub info from all sides of the coin.  Its inspiring to hear from those who have not had such a horrible experience with sub as me and many others.  Ive told my story many times so I wont repeat it here.  I just want to say that I completely disagree with any doctor or site advising that your brain "heals" on suboxone or subutex.  Scientifically it makes absolutely no sense at all.  Your brain becomes addicted to opiates over long term extended use. Going on suboxone does not heal that damage.  Suboxone feeds your brain the same opiate--and in most cases a stronger one-- and this is why you do not go into withdrawal.  Suboxone is a powerful opiate.  Your brain is not healing on it.  Your brain is getting what it wants - a constant supply of a long lasting opiate.  What suboxone CAN do in a positive way is help with addictive behavior.  You are not doctor shopping, your not taking illegal drugs or 40 pills a day and those behaviors stop.  However you certainly are not "healing".  How could your brain be healing from opiate addiction while your feeding it opiates?? I had a "doctor" from another forum actually tell me I was lying about having withdrawal or depression from stopping suboxone and he said to me "its like when a patient tells me they get high off of advil -- you may not be purposefully lying but I dont buy it."  Anyway I just want to add my two cents -- and I am not anti-suboxone.. but being someone who was on it for over 2 years and now off it for (87 days!!) I do caution people about it.  Not just from my own experience but from the many many many others who have had the same outcome as me.  I think the only true way to know about something is to talk to people who have been through it.. the good the bad and the ugly!

[lovemypillhead]

If suboxone, etc does not "cure" drug addictions, what does?

I really am asking a legit question.

Alot of people hate on suboxone saying it will not cure a drug addiction......and how the addict needs support groups too.  So, are u then saying that support groups will cure a drug addict? A support group will somehow change the chemical damage and unbalances in the addict's brain?  Is this forum the sure for drug addiction?  Plesae plesae believe me i am not being a smart a here at all.  I really want to know what people think.

I personally think it is based on the individual person.

For example,  

a guy who takes 5 vicodin a day for 8 months and suddently realizes he is needing these pills a little more than what he should wants to stop.   ok, he really doesnt have massive withdrawls.  it's all pretty much mental.  so, he joins medhelp and talks to other people...sees what his life COULD have ended up for him.....sees the do's and do not's.....gets positive support from members who have been there and done that.  someone like him doesnt need suboxone.....which is great.  he can rely soley on, in this case, the forum.

but, say you have a guy who's been snorting oxy's for 10 years and large mg's each day.....hitting sometimes 600 or higher mg's.....

someone like him is gonna have insane withdrawls...........and coming to medhelp, or NA meetings, may help him.....it may strengthen him to get thru it.....it may make him feel better about himself.........but, im not so sure he would be able to get off the pills without some sort of addiditional pill...like sub....to help get his mind back to normal...his depression....the dope in the brain!  etc etc etc

i dunno.  perhaps i am wrong.  i just think each person and their addiction and the damage done to their brain and body is different so therefore the recovery would have to be different too.

[lovemypillhead]

If suboxone is NO different than any other opiate out there and it is just basically trading one opiate for another.....then why when an addict goes to a dr to get help and is in withdrawl (withdrawal) and is basically wanting to die they hurt so bad...why doesnt the doctor write him a script for some oxy 80's?  why does the dr give the patient suboxone or subutex? hell, it's hard enough to get a script for pain lkillers these days if u have no history of drug abuse and have real pain let alone if ur an addict.

[lovemypillhead]

suboxone is a partial opioid agonist......whereas other pain killers are full. because of that....the effects of the opiate in sub are minimal compared to those in like oxy. is this right?

[hawaiimed]

there it is; refusingbondage's point is the debate:
sub is an opiate.
it doesn't "heal" opiate-caused dysfunctions in brain chemistry interactions.
-that is the opinion of those that have trouble getting down off sub.
In my case, I hate the way I have been feeling on sub for the last 4 or 5 months, ever since I got down to 1 mg/day.
I thought i was losing my mind and my life, to constant fatigue, lack of motivation, sweating... thought it was a hormone change at 58 yrs. I have not been able to keep up a physical work schedule like before, cutting down on activity to about half what I need to do.
whether it's work or chores or hobbies, I just havent had the energy or the inspiration.

It's like I dont recognize my life anymore and I do not like what i see.

[lovemypillhead]

i know suboxone doesnt HEAL the brain itself.........but, by taking it and the opiate dose not being spiked all over the place............and then eventually, tapering down thru dr supervision, the brain basically re-boots itself.....so the addict can hopefully start to be normal again.  

[hawaiimed]

dont get me wrong, I am actually grateful that i am not on oxy anymore; that was insane.
Oxy and opiates that are short-acting is like an intense ferris wheel ride you cant get off, and I did feel like cr-p most of the time after 6 months of just great enjoyment, and productivity, and feeling high.

There are apparantly some that can jump or step off sub and have little trouble.
Maybe everyone's different.

At any rate, there is no debate, in my opinion, that one would be better off on short acting opiates.
I could quit sub by going back to vic or oxy; i know i could, but hell, hell no! To me that's surely going in the reverse direction, straight to the pit of hell... sorry.
I believe vic or oxy would take my sub w/d away, but that's just more poison and more hell to pay.
lovemypillhead,
I think we would need to study sub oxone a lot, just by researching the sites about it, to get a better idea of what sub really is and what it isnt.

[lovemypillhead]

yep i agree with u !

im glad tho u are off oxy and vics.

plus, i dont know.........there is something to be said about being on suboxone vs being on heroin...don't u think?

[hawaiimed]

yes.
Like refusingbodage said, we do heal from the addiction behaviour, big time.
The one obvious advantage, is that at least for the most part, we are safer; from getting arrested, killing someone or getting killed.
We can live functional life and I did for about a year.
I think I should have aimed at tapering sooner, because like I said, it's not so good now, but yes, BETTER than before.

[refusingbondage]

Unfotunately, I think that no, there is no "CURE" for addiction. Those who are addicts will always be addicts.  Your addiction owns you or you own it.  When it owns you -- your taking those chances with your life.. your taking your oxy or heroine or vicodin etc and you cant stop or control yourself.   You can own it by not using.  But you cannot ever forget about it either.  I know heroine addicts who have been off heroine for 20 years who still have cravings from time to time.  Whether sub helps you off your doc or methadone or you just go cold turkey - you always have to remember that addiction and own it.  I am just realizing this now.  I cannot ever think, OK im off drugs, im not an addict.  Those mistakes lead me to relapse after relapse after relapse. Its a hard thing to realize.  And it definitely feels unfair... but I have accepted it and I am determined now more than ever to be clean and stay clean.  Im still an addict.  I will probably always want to be high from time to time.  I will always have to go to great lengths to stay away from drugs and not be around them because I cant handle it.  If there is a bottle of pills in the medicine cabinet, a person who is not an addict would not even think about it....an addict like myself will sit around and obsess over it no matter how much I dont want to.  I dont know why some of us are and other people arent.  I dont think that anything will cure it.  It is something we, as individuals, have to be on top of and fight all the time.  It seems for me realizing my addictive ways and accepting myself as being an addict has helped me stay clean.  I know it will never be 'just one' for me.  And I think that coming to these conclusions and knowing what you are, and keeping on top of it with the support of family (like yourself lovemypillhead-- its so wonderful how supportive you are for him) your friends and some kind of support group - like MH for me, is the only thing that will come close to a cure.  Suboxone is part buperenorphine (opiate) and part naloxene (opiate blocker).  Your getting the opiate to alleviate withdrawal and your getting the naloxene which blocks the euphoria you get from opiates.  This alleviates most cravings.  And its safter than snorting oxy or doctor shopping or taking 40 vicodins a day.  Its a better alternative than that and it is a tool to help addicts stop using drugs for sure.  However to me, it was touted as a miracle drug and the only way to alleviate withdrawal from painkillers.. no one ever talked about the withdrawal from suboxone though.  Bottom line is no one has the addiction thing figured out.  No one has a cure.  Suboxone is not a cure.  Its a tool to help people stop their addictive ways and to help alleviate withdrawal and its a better alternative than dying from an overdose or going to prison for doctor shopping.   I think information and education is key. A good way to tell if a site is fair and honest is if they keep your post up.  On MH lots of people have posted positive experiences on subs and those posts stay up, just like my posts relating to negative experiences on subs.  On other sites, on the pro-sub sites, you will not read negative posts because they take them down.  I posted a question on a diff site re subs and it was not negative it was just my experience and I asked what maybe I did wrong compared to all the great stories I was reading.. My post was deleted within minutes and I was sent a personal email telling me I was a liar.  You will not find that on mh. I would never ever discourage anyone from getting clean.. if that means suboxone treatment than so be it. I would only give people the truth that I have found going through it.  It is not a miracle and its not easy.  But it has its place and many have gotten clean using it.  Just dont expect a miracle -- it still takes a lot of hard work and a lot of fighting and a lot of changing and keeping on top of yourself as an addict.  
Love to all

[ochooked]

Excellent point(s)  Refusingbondage ----- I too was on Sub and suffered horribly after trying to leave it ---  If you ask the question that was asked above --of which is the better --- Heroin or Sub --- then the obvious answer is Sub --- But the question is flawed --- there are OTHER options if one is open to them.   Hey, this is still a very good thread and everyone is very respectful --- Gotta love this site.  All the best.

[cattalina]

This is a great thread - I'm so glad to see this discussion happening without making anyone feel like an outsider!! Just to throw my 2 cents in (as always) refusingbondage hit the nail on the head for sure about there being no "cure". How many times have you heard someone say "Hi I'm Jane and I'm a recovered addict." You don't because we're all recovering - it's a work in progress. Everyone's recovery is different... what works for me may not work for you. Sub in particular is a personal choice for people. I advocate sub in certain situations for certain people - and I've had a less than stellar experience with it, but I know that it's been an invaluable tool for me to gain time away from my doc that I could never get before. And in that time I've changed all the behaviors I adapted during active addiction.
As someone posted previously - it's not the med itself that we should be against but the lack of knowledge from medical professionals and the inaccurate advertising due to that lack of knowledge. I knew nothing about sub except for the 'miracle drug' stories when I started and blindly followed the advice and directions of my doctor. Had the proper information been available I would've done things much differently than I did and I'm sure other people would agree with that. But even knowing what I know now if I could go back in time - I'd still start sub treatment.
There are absolutely other options than sub and IMHO it should be a last resort for people. It's frustrating to see people with a small vic habit get stuck on sub when ct or tapering off vics would have been easier. But again - due to the inaccurate advertising - people think that sub will solve all their problems. I'm grateful for this website as we're able to give the good and bad side of this medication to people who are considering it. I always try to give my account in an unbiased way... I don't want to tell someone that it will or won't work for them but giving the information for people to make an educated decision is a wonderful thing.

Lastly - this is a misconception about the buprenorphine/naloxone concept.  This is part of a post from HenryS354 which is explains it perfectly:
Buprenorphine is a Partial Opiate agonist/antagonist.
Opiate agonists are drugs that make you feel great, ie morphine, heroin, methadone
Opiate antagonists are drugs that override opiate receptors and cause withdrawal ie Naloxone and naltrexone.
The Naloxone in Suboxone is only in the pill for the SOLE purpose of discouraging use in addicts with an intravenous history.  When crushed, and injected, suboxone releases naloxone in the bloodstream causing an even worse version of what you are feeling.
Since Naloxone has a VERY poor bioavailability, nearly none of the naloxone in Suboxone is absorbed in the bloodstream. This drug is added to sub just as an added backup.

[avisg]

Just goes to show we can have different opinions and feeling on a subject but respect others as well.The is no cure for addiction.I personally think sub is an opiate and it trading in one med for another but that is just my opinion. I realize it has been a lifesaver for many many people.