Interesting older thread. Again, my background is in the sciences... but I have worked with doctors in the past. Like any profession they are very diverse. I don't think the majority are out to just make money at the expense of their patients. They want to alleviate suffering and are working with the pharmaceutical tools they have. I am suspicious of the drug companies themselves as I believe they can develop better meds that are not so physically addictive. It seems to be like what went on with the tobacco companies who purposely formulated their blends to increase nicotine dependence to keep and increase their paying customer base. Pain meds are sometimes essential and a blessing... I just believe they can do better but are not for monetary reasons.
WOW! Are you aware of the difference between addiction and dependence? It's a huge one. Not everyone is "robbed of the essence of oneself". In fact, that's what intractable pain did to me, whereas the opiate meds prescribed by doctor have given me my life back. Sorry, but not everybody fits it your round hole. Square peg in N. California
I had NO IDEA what I was getting myself into and I trusted the "Professional" as the one to do all the knowing for me! I was naive and learned one hell of a lesson! I am revisiting this site and seeing my previous comment from a couple of years ago. I feel the exact same, though NOW I can add an additional layer to the terrible ones I already had! My prior pain was real, the medications prescribed were INSANE for my condition when it went from Hydrocodone 7.5 to Fentanyl 100 mcg literally over night! Luckily that first night I removed the patch, because I felt so weird! I was scared to go to sleep with it on and rightfully so! I still wonder if the Doctor made a huge error or simply was addicting patients for profit. He was receiving cash for appointments and was probably in his 70's - I know after I was a patient there he was under investigation on more than one occasion. He seemed to have no fear about any of it and the patients were more than delighted! Looking back it really sickens me! The next layer of this story gets to me even more so. I was concerned and asked a "friend from High School" that was now a Pharmacist. I was informed by him what "type of reputation" the Physician had and that I should get OFF of the Fentanyl asap - I tried AND tried to do so myself. MY ERROR there ...I was taking approx 20-25 plus Oxycodone 30 mg DAILY, JUST TO STAY OUT OF withdrawals...so I moved on to Methadone - I was told it was non-addictive and easy to discontinue! WOW, that is truly insanity! I fell for yet my biggest trap yet...and I am still stuck in it! I am tapering off slowly and seriously only want to see the end of this come! I have zero desire to take ANY MEDICATION, but the withdrawals are so horrific for me, I feel I must go slowly - so I have went from 105 mg to 70 mg and still going! I am constantly reading how difficult Methadone is to discontinue and I am horrified at the damage to my once beautiful teeth. I was told by the Dentist that my teeth looked like "meth mouth" in the back particularly! What a price I have paid!!! I do understand my part in this mess and I certainly understand the Doctor's gross negligence in the whole thing too! I have been misguided too many times now to believe it is all just an accident. I can't even fathom this happens by mistake or in error of any way on a Physician's part - they do KNOW the consequences of these medications and my life is robbed so deeply that I can't even grasp it sometimes. I still keep moving forward, because I refuse to let it win! I will keep on until it kills me OR I WIN, I am determined for the latter!!! I wish everyone the VERY BEST on this terrible journey! I am a victim, but I will get past it and IF I can save one individual with this story I have - then I will at least feel like all of my losses were worth it for someone! KEEP FORGING AHEAD EVERYONE. The battle is not lost! :)
Let me preface my statement by saying that, as in any profession, there are good docs and bad docs out there. And the pharmaceutical companies are only interested in cash, not our well being.
However, during my 15 years of addiction to pills, I knew exactly what I was doing. I put the pills in my mouth, I told the lies. And looking back I'm the only one who carries the responsibility for what I did - not my docs, not the pill manufactures.
If we, as addicts, try to put the blame/responsibility elsewhere for our actions, then we are avoiding a necessary step in recovery. I'm not saying that prescriptions aren't mismanaged...All I know is I was very aware of what I was doing every minute, and I refuse to blame others for what I did to myself for so long.
This comment is to you and all above....seeing is believing..and if ANYONE had seen what I have in a 3 yr span, one would have no doubt at the MANY doctors and pharmaceutical companies that KNOWINGLY manufacture and dispense these medications at an alarming rate. It is ONLY after many deaths and public awareness is FINALLY raised that a small bit of TRUTH gets to the surface! They are grossly over prescribed and there is no possible way to make a "GOOD JUDGMENT CALL" when it comes to these medications, because once you have taken them, if you are one that falls under it's addictive spell...it is then too late, for in the throes of addiction there are no GOOD JUDGMENT CALLS until one has usually suffered immense loss in their personal lives..and ONLY THEN...can some people reclaim a piece of their former selves!!! I went a LIFETIME without any addiction tendencies AT ALL...36 years in fact! These"medications" are in a league of their own! USE ONLY IF HONESTLY DESPERATE AND ONLY FOR A SHORT TIME AND ONLY AS PRESCRIBED!!! That sounds great for me to say, but if it were so simple, there would be no addicts and no need for this thread! The almighty dollar is often at the root of such disasters!!! It's a sad fact, but still a truth!!!
I tip my hat to all who take the kind of responsibility posted here. of course there are difficult pain cases, but the main fact that has to be dealt with (I have to deal with it too, and it's why I am posting here!) is that opioids usually are abused (at worst) and very tough to get off of (at best) because they make you feel =really good=. as soon as that basic fact is accepted and embraced, and responsibility is taken, a foundation for recovery is created.
I do have to say that I was very surprised at how easily I was given pain meds (because 25 years ago, when I abused them, I usually couldn't) -- maybe the difference was that I am known and have a real clinical pain condition that has an end point in sight; and maybe docs saw ME standing out like a sore thumb 25 years ago, when I was drug seeking....but the basis of some of posts here is that I have been at both ends of the pressure and sometimes outright abuse that pts can put on docs for narcs...that is the stuff that is usually very recognizable and not accommodated or catered to.
I think sometimes ppl who are deep in addiction don't realize how they come off to others, and that combined with a victim mentality can result in some pretty harsh behavior. I think I can understand how "the guy with the rx pad" can look like the enemy -- either b/c they are perceived as overprescribing or too stingy with meds (or both!!!) -- but I appreciate those who make an effort to understand both sides of the issue.
My 2 cents....Lizzie, Avis & Marce4 you are right!
People do need to quit the blame game.
However, I do want to tell you an experience I had w/my old GP he started me on lortabs for pain (legit) he wrote me a script w/2 refills in march...continued to refill them w/2 refills each time until the following january then decided I needed to make an appt before he refilled any more (after he gave me the script refill w/2 more refills). That seems a little irresponsible on his part BUT I do take responsibility that at that point I was taking them for the buzz.
I am definately responsible for my addictions, I take the extra pills, I lie to get more,and I do not let my Dr. know how many I am taking. That is all me.
My frustration with my Dr started when I had come clean to her - told her about my opiod addiction, my love of pain pills - I had just started AA, and was trying to get, and stay clean from Alcohol and pain meds.
She then told me to try Tramacet - non addictive, not in the same catagory as the others I had taken. I knew the instant I took them that she was wrong, as soon as that calmness hit, that feeling of well being - but my addictive mind - thought - well you have 300 -( yes, in Canada it is a fairly new drug (1995), and no one really knows anything about it, I'm sure my Dr. just read the distributors information pamphlet - so it is prescribed very freely and in large amounts )- so I figured I would just use up that prescription, and then be done with it.
So now I am struggling with tramadol addiction - I know I should have thrown them away the moment I felt the first one kick in, again - I have no one to blame but myself for my behaviours - but I can't help but wonder what might be different if my Dr. had known a little bit more about the drug, and not prescribed it to me.
I find the BIGGEST problem with today's society is the blame game. No one wants to take responsibility for their actions. I took pills for two reason....legitimate pain AND I enjoyed the buzz I got. I (and I would bet most) walked into this with their eyes wide open! Just an opinion! I do believe there are many who can take pain meds responsibly and we just don't hear about them because they have no need of this forum!!!! Most of us that come here are addicts, plain and simple. I was just as guilty as many of justifying why I was taking more and more of the meds but deep down inside I knew exactly what I was doing to myself!
alot of GP's here have opia phobia, i dont think it's as freely perscribed as one thinks but of course there are proffesional drug dealers out there in a suit, and there clinics are there dens... where they hide behind no different than a drug dealer on a corner, unfortunately they exist.... Methadone is one opiod that makes big bucks... and My GP was one of them dealers, and he had a reputation, I wasnt really into opiods yet he insisted it be the thing for me..(methadone) did it work well kinda if i had known it was such a ***** to come off i wouldn't have touched it.but yes in some ways it did help me i guess he's not fully responsible but there where other options im sure that could have been explored oh well hyensite is a good thing ...just my 2 cents.
and that, my friend, is WHY you just celebrated 8 months clean from drugs. kudos to you girlie :)
...The pharmaceutical company is not responsible for my addiction .
The doctor is not responsible for it . Me myself and I .I am also responsible for my recovery .
at what point do you (anyone) admit that you took the pills for the buzz...how it made you feel...the energy? when you are prescribed 4 a day for pain...but you took 8...because it "made you feel good"...is this the doctor's fault? when 8 no longer gave you that "buzz" and you upped your dose yourself to 15... 20 a day...is this when the doctor is to blame? when you make that appt at the doctor's office...go in greatly exaggerating your pain...so that you can get that "buzz"...so that you can have enough energy to clean your house, go to work, deal with your kids...can you blame the doctor for that?
i feel that pain pills are something that are definitely needed...there are plenty of legitimate reasons that someone would actually need them. but at what point do you accept responsibility for "medicating" yourself for the feeling...no longer the pain?
now...before you respond that you had legitimate pain...you were in a horrible car wreck...that you have a herniated disc...whatever the reason...i do understand that most ppl ARE prescribed pain pills because they needed them. i just believe...and maybe i am wrong...that when you started taking them because of the way they made you feel...that "that" is the point you should accept responsibility and not put the blame on the doctor.
I have calmed down(what a difference a day makes). I am not angry at the doctors I was just reliving one instance. I have been judged as well. When my husband took my 5mg vicodin(for scar tissue and hernia pain) I didnt want to tell dr they were taken from me, needed more towork felt like guts coming out,was too afraid to ask, afraid of being judged.
I know the rule to "keep them(patients) from pain-no need to have it this day and age.Just devastated how it ruined our lives(those pills). He functioned (appeared) normally to others. What no one saw was the lack of motivation to get out of house, bed. Work, play........Even gaveup intimatcy.........knew that would happen. The money spent and the lies were(are) the worst part. I do not blame the doctors and I am reading from his subtle statements some dont buy his BS anymore and have cut off his xanax/Lomotil.
I don't think doctors are to blame. But I also think alot of people who start pain meds for legitamate pain are not to blame either. The concept of "addiction" has very little meaning to most who are not addicted. The doctor may say these pills are addictive or you may read it on the pamplet given by the pharmacy, but unless you've been an addict or dealt very closely with an addict, alot of people don't really understand what being addicted means. These pamplets don't say at what point you'lll get addicted, or the signs to look for or the hell you will go thru if you abuse the drug.
I think if a person is going to be perscribed a pain killer for more than a month, there should be some kind of required education on addiction. We're required to study a book and take a test to get a drivers liecence and they used to make you watch a film to get birth control. More in depth information on what addiction is, needs to be given to people who are prescribed pain meds for any length of time.
We can't doubt that most people don't understand what addiction means, just by the way non-addicts react to us addicts. Most non-addicts think " well, just quit !".
So, No, I don't think the doctors are to blame, there's no conspiracy. Its a lack of education on "addiction".
this seems to be quite the controversary. All i know is I became a brilliant actress to get what i needed.........or so i thought.
Keep doing your job well, and hold on to your convictions. Any patient who disagrees with you is just a bully. You poor souls. Maturity is as you say, about having good judgement. I have always personally had the principle that without evidence there cannot be a good judgement. All I'm saying is give patients the benefit of the doubt. I once witnessed a hospital patient post surgery denied morphine while they were in terrible pain, because there was a note written about them that they abused drugs. If I had a license to prescribe I would have given it myself. Good judgement is about taking in the whole situation, and I have seen again and again that doctors do not do this. Maybe it's just as well I'm not a doctor, I would give any patient the benefit of the doubt and let the worry they have manipulated me not be such an issue. Please don't get so defensive about my confronting you on this. Maybe I am guilty of prejudice, but then do you have all the evidence to substantiate this? I don't expect you to get my point, you have probably over a decade of conditioning into a way of thinking and to change it would be very traumatic. Wish there was some deconditioning center for those who have fallen into the cult of medicine. You could be so useful to society with your intelligence and training if you sorted your minds out. Not having a personal jibe at you, you just pushed a few buttons here and suddenly here's me thinking if I can change one doctor I've done a good deed. As if.
everyone has to use their judgement to make decisions. isn't one of the hallmarks of maturity "having good judgement"? that's not the same as being judgemental.
I think you are not reading my posts very carefully and have your own prejudices against doctors, so it is fruitless to argue. I do my job and do it well, and I prefer not to be bullied into a point of view that I don't agree with or support.
Just to respond to your comments regarding not being judgemental and extending understanding to others. I entirely agree. It's just a shame so much of the medical profession thinks they have the right to be judgemental, and then bemoan about what a complex job they have and how they are beseiged by frauds and the like and so can project their own assumptions onto anyone who walks through their door. As you can spot a drug seeker immediately, what are you basing it on, other than being judgemental? If your patient seems desparate for drugs, they probably are, and it is not for you to assume why without good clinical evidence. Drug addicts behave strangely and desparately, as do people in severe pain. I just like to know how you tell the difference. Either way, isn't it better to give any patient what they need, rather than them resorting to street drugs? There are ways of dealing with drug seekers, addicts or pain sufferers, which do not humiliate and harm them. If they are asking for drugs for medical reasons, all you need to do is request they bring evidence of previous prescriptions and their medical problem. If they cannot, then refer them on to specialist clinics, but let them leave with a full prescription. They will just go somewhere else if you don't. Yes your job is difficult, but it seems to me doctors make their own lives harder than they need by their superior attitude of suspecting the motives of patients and assuming they are always correct in their judgements. The rest of us in the adult world have learnt to grow out of such egocentric thinking. I have worked with the public, with homeless and mentally ill, in hospitals, and incidently without a doctor's salary. There are many people with jobs even more difficult than your own. And you know what, treat any person with respect and they will find it pretty hard to manipulate you. It sometimes seems to me that with so many years of training in the one culture of medicine so many doctors become institutionalized into the stereotypes and contemptuous thinking of their teachers. Medicine needs to grow up, especially now you have patients who may know more medically than yourselves. I have not walked in your shoes, but I have been stamped on by the shoes of your peers, and the only reason was because like you, they took one look at a patient and decided they were fraudulent. Maybe you should all do a course module in developmental psychology, and study the section where the child first learns that their version of the world and people is often wrong. Get through that stage in your development, and you may be better practitioners. And I wonder if you're reading this and wondering how dare I be so judgemental...hurts doesn't it?
My doctor wrote vicodin scripts for me for over 10 years. 720 every 3 months.
For headaches.
I ct'ed on April 2nd. I could still get the refills, but got really sick of the pills running my life.
It's been over a month and I'm still in w'd. Not sleeping well.
Restless legs, restless arms, general anxiety.
I'm so hoping it goes away soon.
I'm getting so tired of feeling like this.
Just like if you're arrested for something and you claim you didn't know the law, ignorance is not innocence. With all the information out there on the world wide web, I feel people are responsible for doing their own research on any medications they take along with possibly having a conversation with your pharmacist.
Docotors are human and although they do take that oath to not cause harm they aren't robots. Human errors account for many deaths all over the world because no one is perfect, not even doctors. We expect tham to be God when we need something and then blame them for our own ignorance???
Anyone suffering from this conspiracy theory attitude is not anywhere near being sober (not just clean) because to be sober to to be accountable.... plain and simple.
you are describing something that rarely (in my experience) happens. most docs on call for a weekend, if they think a pt should not have more pain meds, will simply say "no" to that weekend call for more. the pt does not usually call back but usually ends up going to the ED for more, either b/c they are an addict and won't take no for an answer or b/c they really have pain and need to. pain is not something that can be responsibly prescribed for over the phone (without a physical exam) unless you know the pt very well, and so most mds will not prescribe over the phone b/c it simply is not the responsible thing to do.
believe me, it is crystal clear which pts are drug seekers, and those that truly have pain problems. I actually had a weekend call from a pt for percocet b/c a pt had "itchy feet". the pt was so out of it he coudln't even explain what he meant. and I've had pts nodding out in the office while I was (patiently) trying to elicit their history to deterimine if they had real pain issues, and falling asleep in mid-sentence. ridiculous.
opiates are one of the best and most effective pain medicines available, they are extremely useful for real pain and are very cheap, but the built-in drawbacks are 1) the risk of addiction and 2) the fact of tolerance over long-term use. no responsible md (most of them) will willingly addict a pt or buy into an addict's pressures to feed an addiction when pain is not the key element of a pt's problem. and no responsible md will regularly prescribe just to get pts off their back. "no" is a very effective tool for dealing with the pressures of an addict -- if an addict knows they will not get meds from a particular md, they will move on. none of them want to subject themselves to the frustration and humiliation of begging and pleading for meds if it's not going to get them what they want. but try to understand, that drs are only human and you can fool some of the people some of the time, so it possible that people who should not be continuing to be on pain meds will usually find some way or someone who will keep the ball rolling.
lizzie lou, I do agree with you that the point of this discussion is doctors over-prescribing vs pt responsibility. the pt's responsibility cannot be ignored, and addicts claiming to be victims in a vast conspiracy of greedy, avaricious doctors just doesn't fly.
huh? i have no idea what you are talking about. there is no criticism of ppl who cannot take certain meds...??????? this is a discussion about doctors over-prescribing medications vs. responsibility on the pts. part.