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Question about Pain Management
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Question about Pain Management

I've been giving this a lot of thought.  Because opiate withdrawal is not life threatening, doctors are handing these things out like candy.  Yes, you get that little pamphlet advising you that these drugs can be addictive.  The truth is that these drugs were never intended for long term use.  I think it would only take a few minutes out of a doctors time to show you a short video of what these drugs can do over prolong use.........addiction and dependence is a very fine line and showing a short video of what one will suffer as a result of prolonged use (watching someone suffer withdrawal) as a possibility may make the patient make alternative choices.

There is no reason that I can see for doctors to be prescribing medications that at one time were strictly for patients on their death beds.........virtually nobody reads those pamphlets anyway, so where does the responsibility lie?.......If you are informed correctly, then your doctor can accept no blame.

Nauty
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666151_tn?1311117976
I have argued that there should be a separate residency in 'opiate prescribing'.  There is no doubt that most doctors do not understand or appreciate the risks of these medications, for the individual and for society.  It will never happen-- but given the huge number of deaths that occur annually from these drugs (most people would be shocked to see the number of young people who die just in their own communities each year), there should be greater attention to the risks from each prescription.
55 Comments
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Avatar_m_tn
I have to disagree there(although i agree dr's should warn patients more, but that applies to lots of things, not just narcotics).
there's no need to scare people. many people suffer needlessly because they fear an addiction which may never happen.
if someone is in so much pain that they are seriously considering suicide, does that count as 'death-bed' ?
I read ALL the info that comes with the drugs, as well as chking the net for further advice.
the responsibility lies with the patient. take the meds as prescribed. if you can't then you need to tell your dr about it. then he can help you.
If it weren't for strong painkillers, I'd have been dead in my mid-20's.
not much more to say.
hope you don't think i'm being nasty. i'm not.
i just need them to survive, that's all.
take care Nauty

Nick
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Avatar_m_tn
Naughty,
I agree with you, I think a short vieo when signing your pain management contract would be a excellent idea. When I was first out on pain meds eight years ago, nobody ever told me about w/'ds You knew about dependance and addiction fro the media, but never kew it included the drug I was prescribed.
Take Care Naughty
-Dez
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Avatar_f_tn
Nick,

thats all i am asking for is informing the patient a little better.  I certainly think a good scare would save many from future addiction/dependence.  I knew nothing about addiction or withdrawal, therefore I got trapped in the cycle of addiction completely blind...I mean clueless........

I have read some posts on here that in some states Doc's don't prescribe narc's at all?..dunno if that's true or not, but i've read it.

Pain management in my opinion was specifically created for the purpose of keeping the DEA away.......

I'm am just thinking about back in the 80's.....you couldn't get vicodin to save your life?........so, what happened between then and now?  Illicit drugs were on the streets at those times...not saying they aren't now, but prescription drug use is now the drug of choice on the streets more so than
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Avatar_m_tn
I think you all make excellent points and there are good arguments on both sides. I would agree that there should be more extensive education on prescribing of all controlled drugs. Especially since doctors are not the only ones who have prescription priviledges anymore---it should be a larger part of the nursing practicioner and physican asst programs and being in the field, I can tell you that its not.    
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356518_tn?1322267242
Chronic pain is a disease just like any of the other diseases and to single it out and call it a hiding place from the DEA just because of an addiction problem is unfair to the many who suffer from CP and the other numerous disease's that cause chronic pain.
The DEA monitors pain management just like they do any other doctors and their practices, even more so than the others.
I am not implying that addiction problems with these medications are not a problem, they are but to put the addicted and the CP Pt's together in one group isn't fair at all. When a CP Pt goes to the doctor for pain control and are prescibed medications then they are no different than the person with diabetes going to the doctor for their insulin.
Opioids and narcotic medications were certainly prescibed and abused too in the 80's you just did not hear much about the abuse. Today their are children experimenting with prescription medications and those who buy/sell them and that's why there is so much negative press today about these medications. Back in the 80's this was uncommon to hear.
Nurse practitioners and physician assistants are NOT allowed by the DEA or medical board to write these kinds of prescriptions.
Addiction and being dependant on medications are two COMPLETLY different things all together. A person who has to take these type of prescription drugs are dependant on them to have a life and function with a lesser degree of pain and that's not addiction.
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547368_tn?1332173665
Well said Sandee. I'd like to know where all these "doctors' are that are prescribing willy nilly or "handing them out like candy" to anyone who needs a band-aid. It's not happening in Wisconsin and if you look at the PM Forum, it's not happening in most states.

Opiates are DIFFICULT to obtain in most instances. How are our children obtaining them? If you follow the documentaries and the news many are being bought on the Internet; some are being stole from the parents medicine cabinet and a lesser amount is being bought from a "friend."  And where did the "friend" get them?  Again from the Internet or the parent's medicine cabinet. I am not to foolish as to beleive that there are not ppl that obtain opiates under ruse from a trusting physician. These ppl are not the normal. Run a million videos for them, it won't do any good.

And run a million videos for the chronic pain (CP) patient that without opiates cannot get out of bed in the morning or sleep at night because of severe, unrelenting pain. The CP patient that would rather die than continue one more day with pain. Run those videos and they'll still swallow the often the only releif they get, an opiate. CP is a disease just as Sandee 1818 said. No CP patient I know wants to live on opiates.

Addiction is also a disease and I'm not sure the true addict will make any different choices if made to watch a video. Education should begin with our children and in my state all public schools educate on addiction and drug use. When the 20 year old if filling a narcotic prescription they know exactly what the consequences could be. And hopefully they know how to read and watch TV which provides additional sources of education.

Don't suggest that it be made even more difficult to obtain opiates, that only ends up hurting the true CP patients.....Just my thoughts.
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441382_tn?1329196690
I guess the bottom line for me is that an addict is an addict.  If you take away "A" because it's addictive, if they do not TRULY want to get clean, they will find something to replace it.  I was married to one what seems like a couple of lifetimes ago.  He went through a phase where he was addicted to crack.  When he woke up and realized what he was doing, he started drinking.  Socially, of course.  Within a year he was getting so drunk on a regular basis that it was commonplace for him to pass out and urinate the bed while he was asleep.  When THAT became unacceptable to him, he started working out.  It then became a case of having to spend every free minute in the gym.  An addictive personality is always going to take things, WHATEVER they are, to the extreme.  

People were abusing opiates long before our lifetimes.  Codeine used to be available OTC when I was a kid.  People started getting hooked on cough syrup for the codeine in it and they had to take it off the shelves to protect people.  Should we not sell moth balls in the stores now because people sniff them or eat them?  Or should moth balls become a controlled substance?  Just how far do we have to go to protect people from themselves?  It seems that the further they go to protect addicts from themselves, the addicts still manage to find ways to get their fixes and it's the people who are obtaining their drugs legally, from pain management doctors, and who do not have problems with addiction, who are the only ones who end up having a problem getting them!

Why should people who CAN take their opiates responsibly have to suffer because of those who CAN'T?  It's the responsibility of the patient to educate themselves about whatever substance they're putting into their bodies, nobody else's.  If they have questions about it, they can ask their doctor or their pharmacist.  But NO DRUG is without its risks, and if doctors told everyone they prescribed every drug for not to take it because this can happen or that can happen, there would be no point in having them prescribe anything, including antibiotics.  And why should the responsibility for the person becoming addicted be placed on anyone but the addict themselves?  If someone chooses to drink beer, does the brewery become responsible when that person becomes an alcoholic?  If someone starts smoking cigarettes, is the tobacco company responsible when that person has a hard time quitting?  This world is in the shape it's in today because nobody wants to take responsibility for their own actions.  Somebody else always has to be at fault, and that's just messed up.  People need to be responsible for their OWN actions.  That's not to say that they should not have support from everyone if they are trying to quit whatever it is they become hooked on, but it shouldn't become a case of everyone sitting around blaming doctors or pharm companies or breweries or anyone else for that person's addiction.  Just my two cents.

Ghilly
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Avatar_m_tn
Sandee, tuck and ghilly are 100% correct.

The abuse of prescription medications affects pain management patients as much as anyone. Why? Because doctors have to figure out if you're a "drug seeker" which I've stormed out of offices after hearing more than once.

It took me over 2 years to actually get into pain management, 2 years of terrible quality of life from my chronic pain. All these drugs do is bring me back up to a baseline level, like someone without any pain, so I can live my life.

There are doctors and patients out there that abuse these things but it's not everyone, and it's extremely offensive when everyone is lumped together. There's a big difference between dependence and full blown addiction from abuse. They are not the same exact thing.
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606078_tn?1247268153
  I have to agree with the posters above me. I have fibromyalgia and Chronic Fatigue and without my pain medication I wouldn't be able to get out of bed. It really upsets me to be lumped together with those who take opiates for recreational purposes. It is really sad that those of us with chronic pain have to live in fear of having the only thing that helps us to function taken away. I am 54 years old and the worry of addiction is the last thing on my mind.
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710547_tn?1295449630
Do I have a comment or what!?  Ditto, Ditto.  Many have suffered needlessly - even the elderly, whose drug dependence wouldn't be an issue, who have severe pain from cancer or degenerative diseases because they aren't prescribed narcotics.  I've been dependent for some time and my doctors are the ones who keep saying there's no way I could or should stop them due to my known severe pain, yet I have heard someone in my family state that "well SHE's addicted to pain killers. . ." trying to deflect attention from her problems.  (the good old sibling mud slinging - she has BPD).  The truth is - yes - we're "addicted" - but we're physically addicted, which is really dependence, rather than psychologically,which is true addiction.  That's the difference.  An addict will seek drugs for the affect, the high, and take more than necessary and up their dose to maintain a high.  A pain sufferer will take the least amount possible, and only when needed for pain.  Their goal is to feel less pain, not more pleasure.  The reason you take the drugs actually effects the way the addiction works.  Dependence is different from Addiction and those who are dependent - were they to have their pain stop - would be able to go off the meds.  After prolonged use, they'd need help, but they'd want to do it.  An addict would use every excuse possible to keep getting the drugs.

The other thing I wanted to say is that there are drugs that are so much more dangerous.  NSAIDS cause more liver failure, Prednisone causes bone fractures, metabolic disease, and fragile skin etc., SSRIs cause dangerous biochemical changes, as do PPI - proton pump inhibitors.  Even the mild diuretic, diazide, can cause serious side effects. Doctors would do patients more good to be more cautious about prescribing some of the more accepted medications.  Just because they can't be abused doesn't make them safe. THAT's my pet peeve!

OK, that's my rant and my rave and my 2c as well.  Take care.  Blessings, Jan
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Avatar_f_tn
Well, I just disagree.  I suffer chronic pain and have difficulty functioning and even getting out of bed but I no longer rely on medication to "get me through the day"  fact is ..you take them for any long period of time and your addicted.  I believe there is a very fine line between addiction and dependence.  It is a doctors responsibility to help you when you go to see them.  If you say your in pain they prescribe, what else can they do.  It's their job to help, even when they know your a faker.......they take MRI, Scans...do all the test and nothing comes up, but your in pain?.......I think there are just as many addicts in the pain management forum as there are in the addiction forum......they are just in denial.  I read their posts and I read the same things just worded different to convince themselves they are not addicts.  

I took my meds. "as prescribed" and suffered horribly when I finally found this place and figured out what the "f" was going on.  unless you have tried everything to manage your pain....its way to easy to pop a narcotic and oh, boy do they make your chronic pain feel better don't they?........they did for me.  Its my personal choice to suffer it out and use non-narcotic ways to manage my pain as much as I can.

PA's can prescribe narcotics, so that's not true and yes.......they hand them out like candy........I see people going in for minor surgery and their doc's just keep refilling them for months.  I dunno, I guess I am just an angry wench!

nauty
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535089_tn?1388447159
To Naughty:
You say:

There is no reason that I can see for doctors to be prescribing medications that at one time were strictly for patients on their death beds.........virtually nobody reads those pamphlets anyway, so where does the responsibility lie?.......If you are informed correctly, then your doctor can accept no blame.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So what about the guy in the wheel chair who can hardly grab the wheel to make it go or the lady with the cane who can barely walk across the room. Should he stay in bed or her in a chair because they are not on their "death beds" and shouldn't qualify...maybe they should just buck up to the situation and tough it out?? I don't think so. They need a life too and sometimes their only option are the pain meds they take just to function.
You see Naughty, this is where a lot of us in the Pain Forum are. So it is not fair for you to say that pain medications should be just for the cancer patients. To me that is being prejudiced and totally unfair.
At  one time in my life, I felt as if there were no hope for my pain and that I wasn't going to live like that. I pondered the idea of just ending it all. After many Doctor visits and countless hours of therapy, I was introduced to pain meds. The Doctor did not hand them out like candy in fact, I am monitored every two months. I can live my life now and not feel like there is no hope. I hope that someday you can see our side of this.
Please take care,
Molly


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Avatar_m_tn
I won't bother trying to change anyone's mind, because that probably won't happen.
but i'll tell you what happened last night.
I have been in more pain than usual over the last month or so. sometimes really quite bad(hate to say it, but i was starting to get that better off dead thing going in my head). and last night it was really getting to me so i went to see my dr.
i sat in the waiting room for 1hrs 40mins doubled over. trying not to let anyone see that i was struggling to keep the tears at bay. my dr knew right away that things weren't good and i told him as much. for the 1st time since i've seen this dr i straight out asked for something stronger for the pain. his response was NO. the best i could get was a referral to the pain clinic.(which i accepted). he knew that i wasn't coping well with the pain and i even told him that it's starting to get to me mentally. his answer was still no.
where was the dr who throws pills at me like they're candy?
he wasn't on duty last night, he's never been on duty.
oh and Nauty, your comments were quite offensive, particularly after i just drove one and a half hours in pain, sat in a waiting room doubled over for 1 hr 40 mins, was very upfront with my doc, and got no help.
perhaps i need to lie and be more manipulative?
for an addict, the difference between psychological addiction and physical dependance may be a fine line, but for non-addicted CP sufferers it's a mile wide.
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Avatar_m_tn
I love this forum, and people like Mollyrae, Tuckamore, mindlink, nick30 and many others have been so insightful it's actually cheered me up more than once. To know there are people feeling the same, or going through similar things is extremely empowering. I thank all of those in the Pain Management forum for being helpful, caring and all around awesome.

So for that reason Nauty, I can't say what I really want to say to you due to potential repercussions. Let's just say, you're WRONG. You don't really know what you're talking about, like a lot of people and I'm sick, and tired of hearing it. People like you are the ones that lump addicts and pain patients together, blurring the line and making it harder for people to get help. Would you say the same about a kid snorting anti-psychotics, and someone with a mental disorder who takes them to function? NO!

I seriously doubt your tale of taking meds and what not, frankly you sound like an ex-addict who's on a high horse, just like ex-smokers who get in the faces of smokers and deride them for their bad habit. You have no right, absolutely no right. You cannot say "I am in pain and I don't need them so no one else does" that's just....ugh. I have chronic pain, but I wouldn't say a cancer patient doesn't need them! Everyone is different, no one's body is the same and we all handle things differently. Frankly, I think my experiences with surgeries, pain, injuries and such have strengthened me somewhat against what I deal with. Without all that, I might feel 50% worse than I do.

So please, save your preaching. You have a right to your opinion, but to say we in the Pain Management forum are addicts wording things differently because we're in denial is irresponsible, offensive and derogatory. Watch what you say next time, I implore you.
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710547_tn?1295449630
I applaud you for finally being informed about narcotics being addictive. I knew that going in, but finally chose it anyway.  It is always a shame when anyone, addict, or other, messes things up for people who truly could benefit from something.  Criminals can get guns, so honest people have a hard time obtaining them for protection.  People hijack planes so the rest of us have to go through hell to get on a plane.  There are always going to be people who abuse substances - any substance. But it doesn't mean there isn't a legitimate reason for using that substance. I'm glad food isn't outlawed just because most of American's abuse it!

My use of narcotics is an unfortunate necessity.  I feel "normal" on them, as far as psychological parameters are concerned.  It doesn't relieve all of my pain - nothing would - but it helps me at least function.  I have two kids and am on my own.  I'm disabled and sometimes can't get out of bed.  I can't imagine anyone believing that everyone else experienced things the same way they did.  You say you didn't even know they were addictive.  Did you have a diagnosis?  Have you ever felt pain that was so intense that all you could do is scream? rock back and forth?  Have you ever had post-surgical pain?  Would you tough that out too?

I was not lucky enough to have a normal MRI, nor scan, nor blood work, nor x-ray, nor spinal tap. All my tests were positive and abnormal.  While in the hospital one time trying to make the decision to go off these meds, on a reduced dose, my pain doc came in, sat on my bed, and his arm accidentally touched and moved my leg.  I screamed involuntarily and he just looked at me and said - you just can't do this.  I've tried tens units, PT, biofeedback etc.  At some point, for some people, there just isn't another choice.  Are there some who fake it and abuse?  Of course there are!  But why are you throwing stones at all for the sins of a few?

I would suggest a course in empathy.

I do wish you well and I'm glad you've found a successful path for yourself.

Jan
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441382_tn?1329196690
Nauty:  Well, I just disagree.

Ghilly:  You are entirely entitled to do just that.

Nauty:  I suffer chronic pain and have difficulty functioning and even getting out of bed but I no longer rely on medication to "get me through the day"  fact is ..you take them for any long period of time and your addicted.  I believe there is a very fine line between addiction and dependence.  

Ghilly:  I'm sorry to hear that you, too, are a chronic pain sufferer, but the key here is that it is your choice to suffer chronic pain and have difficulty functioning and even getting out of bed.  It is your own choice to no longer rely on medication.  I choose not to spend the one life we get suffering in pain and not able to walk when I can take medication and enjoy my life almost as well as people who don't have to take meds.  It is NOT a fact that if you take opiates you get addicted.  It IS a fact, however, that you get dependent.  The line between the two is only fine to the addict who is trying to convince everyone, including themselves, that they don't have a problem.  When you are an addict, you can't wait to take your next dose, and as soon as that "buzz" starts to go away, you're looking for it again and are taking more meds.  When you are dependent, you take a dose to get rid of the pain, and you don't take another one until the pain starts to become unbearable again.  For me, there are days when I do have to take my dose every four hours.  Then there are those nice, warm days when it's dry out that I will take a dose when I wake up in the morning, and I'll look at the clock and see that it's 3:00 in the afternoon and I have gone 8 hours without taking a dose, and depending on how well my pain is doing at that point, I may not even take one then, and I've been wrestling chronic pain for 13 years now.  For someone who is dependent, it's the pain that reminds them to take a pill, not the urge for a buzz.

Nauty:  It is a doctors responsibility to help you when you go to see them.  If you say your in pain they prescribe, what else can they do.  It's their job to help, even when they know your a faker.......they take MRI, Scans...do all the test and nothing comes up, but your in pain?.......

Ghilly:  Most doctors will not start out immediately giving someone narcotics.  If they do, when the person goes back to try to get more, most responsible doctors will not automatically just refill them.  If it seems that there is no improvement, they will refer you to a specialist for more in-depth examination of the problem.  They will not continue to just write prescriptions for opiates because the person asks for them.  

Nauty:  I think there are just as many addicts in the pain management forum as there are in the addiction forum......they are just in denial.  I read their posts and I read the same things just worded different to convince themselves they are not addicts.

Ghilly:  Just because you had a problem with them and became addicted doesn't mean that everyone else is in the same boat.  Perhaps you are trying to convince yourself that everyone has a problem that they're in denial about just so that it makes you feel that much better about yourself getting hooked on them?

Nauty:  I took my meds. "as prescribed" and suffered horribly when I finally found this place and figured out what the "f" was going on.  unless you have tried everything to manage your pain....its way to easy to pop a narcotic and oh, boy do they make your chronic pain feel better don't they?........they did for me.  

Ghilly:  It sounds like you're trying to convince yourself here more than anyone else that you took your meds "as prescribed".  There had to be SOMETHING more going on that you "figured out", because had you truly needed the pills for chronic pain, you would have seen the difference or differences between the behavior of those who were addicted to them, who would do God knows what in order to get what they wanted, and what you were doing.  It seems to me that you must have seen addictive behavior going on with yourself as well, and it's just easier for you to say "I took my meds "as prescribed" than it is to say "I started taking extra doses because I liked the high."  Something I have seen with the folks on the Substance Abuse board is that they are brutally honest about themselves, they are not afraid to say "I was addicted and I was doing horrible things to get my fix".  They also tell people that if they really and truly need the meds to control chronic pain, there is nothing wrong with taking them.  Why do you think the whole world should hurt right along with you or risk being lumped into the category of "addict"?  Better yet, why are you being so judgemental of others who are in chronic pain?  If you lied to yourself and others to justify taking pills, that was up to you.  But don't accuse us all of doing the same just to make yourself feel better.

Nauty:  Its my personal choice to suffer it out and use non-narcotic ways to manage my pain as much as I can.

Ghilly:  That's exactly right.  It's YOUR choice.  I don't choose to spend my life bedridden and in chronic pain just so that I can say I don't take medicine.  I have adhesive arachnoiditis.  A doctor who suffers from it has written in his book that it is "living with the pain of cancer without the release of death."  I do not choose to live with that pain when there is an alternative.  You are welcome to if you want to.

Nauty:  PA's can prescribe narcotics, so that's not true and yes.......they hand them out like candy........I see people going in for minor surgery and their doc's just keep refilling them for months.  

Ghilly:  I don't  know of anyone who is in this situation.  I know people who had surgery who couldn't get anything stronger than 800mg Motrin post-surgically, and the one person I know who had hip replacement surgery got a prescription for 20 Vicodin ES with ONE REFILL, and after that, that was it.  I don't know where you live that all these doctors and PAs are just scribbling off prescriptions left and right, but it's not around where I live.

Nauty:  I dunno, I guess I am just an angry wench!

Ghilly:  No, but you do seem to be judgemental and not at all willing to recognize that not everyone is out trying to score pills to get high, and that not everyone who takes opiates takes them because they want to.  You have said some very unkind things to people who have a hard enough time making it from day to day without hearing from a total stranger that they are a drug addict in denial.  Just because you became an addict doesn't mean everyone will, and it is not fair to try to either frighten or intimidate people out of taking meds that help them to have some quality of life just because you did not do well with them.

Ghilly
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Avatar_m_tn
You're awesome.
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441382_tn?1329196690
Thanks.  You're made some pretty awesome contributions yourself.  :)

Ghilly
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710547_tn?1295449630
May I suggest that those of us who have a legitimate need to take narcotics due to a real medical condition or diagnosis hold our heads high with dignity and grace?  I am not offended by naughty's remarks.  I am saddened by them.  It is usually the case that when a person lashes out at others with accusatory words and condemnation, they are feeling less than confident themselves.  Those of you who know you've tried every method possible to control your pain, but who have failed to get relief; you know that your drug use is necessary and appropriate at this point in your life.  You do NOT need the approval of anyone on this forum, in your family, or anywhere else.  It is unfortunate that the public is, for the most part, ignorant about narcotics and their use.  If someone wants to argue semantics with you, saying you're addicted - I for one, say, yes, I'm addicted - but it's due to having developed a dependence to a medication that I need to control pain from my MS, Sys Sclerosis, Osteoporosis, Degenerative Disc Disease, Interstitial Cystitis, Peripheral Neuritis, Pulmonary Hypertension, and Arthritis.  (that's not the complete list, buy by then, whoever I'm with isn't listening anymore lol)  I would have to go through withdrawal to stop, but, I would have to restart, as my medical condition hasn't gone away, but continues to progress.  

Those who can manage their pain without narcotics, by using biofeedback, or tens units, etc., should do so.  I'm glad naughty finally found out that she was on a drug she didn't need, which wasn't in her best interest.  It's a shame she didn't choose to read the drug information that comes with every prescription  That  is something every patient should take the responsibility to do.  Doctors are humans too.  There are good ones and bad ones, and no one has any guarantee that they're going to have a doctor who always makes the right choices for THEM.  They might make that same choice for someone else and it would be right.  That's why we have to be informed and be our own advocate.  Perhaps she feels self anger for not having researched the drug she was prescribed, and for too easily going on a drug for a condition that hadn't been diagnosed (?) and that didn't need such a powerful drug as a solution.  Perhaps she is once again not taking the time to consider that the people on this forum are not her; don't have her same condition; don't have her same level of pain; and have already tried all those other things first that she is just now utilizing.  And why she thinks the 80's didn't have doctors giving narcotics, and now, they're given out like candy, I'm not sure.  I got narcotics in the 80's - but then, I had real conditions that needed that type of treatment.  There was a review of the practice of narcotic prescribing a decade ago or so, because too many people were being denied with chronic conditions due to the fear of addition.  What they discovered was that this was largely the elderly, who didn't have the addiction threat due to their reduced longevity, and that those who take narcotics for pain were found to react different physiologically from those taking them for a high.  As I said in another post - amount, frequency, reason for dosing etc. - these things actually effect how the drug becomes addictive.  THIS DOESN'T MEAN THAT IF YOU TAKE AS PRESCRIBED - YOU WON'T BECOME DEPENDENT/ ADDICTED - OVER TIME - YOU WILL.  It's a problem those with severe chronic pain accept in order to live a life with some semblance of quality and grace.  Anyway, more pain management drs showed up to help manage those with this need.  It's a form of medical abuse to not treat chronic severe pain.  But it is still very highly regulated.  Some doctors are just more cautious than others.

I would suggest that if there are posters out there who have discovered alternative methods of dealing with pain - share them with us - inform the community of the different things that work for you.  But don't chastise the methods of others whom you don't know and whose conditions you don't know anything about.  That way, we can all learn from each other in an atmosphere of acceptance and support.  Isn't this supposed to be a forum for support and information dissemination?  There's no doubt an anger management forum somewhere if your goal is to put others down. I don't think anyone should have to defend their treatment plan, decided on with their doctor, to a stranger online.  But hearing all the options that others have tried?  Of course - I want to hear about everybody's experiences.  I might learn something useful.

I wish everyone a day of pain distractions and a moment of true joy!  Blessings, Jan
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Wow!  some I come back to the States and what an a$$ whippin given.

First of all. I think my posts were poorly written, and read.  I am not trying to say that their are not people who need narcotic meds. to have quality of life.  There are a lot of fakers out there that make it hard for people in "real situations" to get the meds they need. As far as my statement about doctors "handing them out like candy"  I speak from my own personal experience.  I have 3 friends who have injuries, surgeries ...bla bla...that no longer really need them, but run to the doctor buckled over in fake pain and are getting drugs like Morphine w/percocet for breakthrough pain and are now at their limit, and it willl eventually happen to anyone who takes these kinds of drugs.  

I guess what I am really trying to say is .......Not all, but most of the time you WILL reach that tolerance level and then you will be pulled off the meds. and the a lot of doctors are not sypathetic to a patient who is going to suffer the reprocussions of the meds He/She put them on.  

Some people are very lucky and can maintain on a level of narcotics without having this problem arise, but SO MANY pain management patients eventually end up in the "addiction" fourm and I feel awful about it.  I am not trying to slam anyone.  I am not the most gifted with words and certainly can't speak for all, but to the person who went to the ER buckled over in pain.  You were rejected or referred to "Pain Management"  because they thought you were a drug seeker.  I am not talking out of my A$$  I get this information from a VERY reliable source.  1. a Nurse Practioner.....2.  a Doctor himself and 3. an ER nurse.......

I realized quickly that using narcotic meds. for my chronic pain would eventually reach the point that if I continued I would need stronger & stronger meds. which eventually would lead to be cut-off because thats it !  It will happen to many pain management patients and it makes me sad.  It was not my intent to offend anyone, but I stand firm on the use of narcotic meds.  I think they are just a vicious circle.

I am in constant pain and have felt the same feelings that some of you have felt.  To the point of ending it all because of the lack of quality of life.  It took years of depression and adjustment and I accept that there are just some things that i can't do anymore.  

Don't think I don't understand about Chronic Pain.  My heart goes out to anyone who has to suffer as I do.  What I have done is made a person choice and life adjustments.  Non-narcotic meds. which barely get me by, but I never want to suffer through that circle again.

I apologize If I offended anyone.  It was not my intent.  but, I stand by what I say.

luv,
Nauty.........
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Quote:

" I am not the most gifted with words and certainly can't speak for all, but to the person who went to the ER buckled over in pain.  You were rejected or referred to "Pain Management"  because they thought you were a drug seeker.  I am not talking out of my A$$  I get this information from a VERY reliable source.  1. a Nurse Practioner.....2.  a Doctor himself and 3. an ER nurse.......  "

- That was me you are talking about.

You obviously don't have the slightest idea what I've been through(and continue to go through), nor do you understand a great deal. There's just no point trying to explain it to a brick wall. It's about time you understand that humans need to take responsibility for thier own actions. You were not responsible. I am. I don't want to take this ****, but you loved it didn't you? That's why you're an addict and I'm not.
Just like your 3 friends are addicts, they choose to keep going to dr's faking it to get drugs. Here's the difference - I'm not faking it. Do you understand that?
It ain't rocket science.

Nick.
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Well nick here i am!!!!!   LOL

I have read each and every post on this one and i have even posted on the pain management forum before.  Here is where i stand......I am a recovering addict.  I have noone to blame but myself for my addiction.  I looked for that high and i did everything i could possibly do to make sure i got that high including lying and using doctors or whoever else i could.  I didnt care who i took out along the way as it was all about me.   Here i am today......just celebrated my 1 yr clean date.  I have met some really great people on this forum and a couple of them are from the pain management.....i read about their struggles with getting their meds and the pain they live with day to day.....it saddened me to know that i was a part of the reason why the medical professionals are so uptight about handing out pills.  It is becuz of people like me who used and abused them for so long.  My pain was not always fake but it sure wasnt as bad as i made it out to be.  I never planned on being an addict but i am.  The pain meds are there for a reason.......pain.  Where i am from they are making it harder and harder for the addict......not the person who is taking them responsibly.   I wish you all well..........sara
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Yes, I do understand.  when I made that statement I was speaking for the way that the doctors think.  They have seen it all, and when you went to the ER in serious pain this is the way they think because of all the drug seekers, and I have seen what people do.  I will never forget a post I read over a year ago that someone posted on the addiction side.  He stated that he took a brick and smashed it onto his own foot so he could go to the ER and get meds......

I do believe that people can take their meds. responsibly.  But, like a bad movie, it will have to come to an end.  That's the way I feel about these meds.  I have a strong opinion about this and I mean no disrespect to anyone.  I speak only from the heart and concern for any chronic pain patient.   I AM ONE  I am in pain EVERYDAY of my life.  I just see what these drugs do to many people over a prolonged time.  They are not meant to be taken long periods of time.  They destroy you!!   Don't you get it?  I am sorry you have such anger against me for how I fee, but guess what?.....I am saying this because I care............that's it.

luv,
Nauty...........
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You seem to have calmed down and changed your attitude a bit.  I appreciate that.  You are taking in other's thoughts and feelings and everyone will react with more respect for you. I would say that there is still something you aren't clear on.  There ARE people who are able to stay on these meds for long periods of time without having to go off.  As I have mentioned before, my doctors would never take me off of them. I am the only one who has considered reducing my dose.  When not after the high, it is possible to stay on the same dose for an indeterminate amount of time.  After increasing my dose to help with pain, I reached a dose that I was unwilling to go past.  I now switch types of meds and combinations to try to obtain relief.  There is also the possibility of pairing alternative techniques with the narcotics.  So, again, I would ask that you not assume that your experiences are the same as others.  And yes, those in true severe pain are sometimes turned down due to the indiscriminate use by addicts.  As I've said, many who abuse, ruin it for those who would use the same substance for legitimate, necessary reasons.  I must say, your initial posts did not seem to be coming from a place of compassion, but rather, one of accusation without knowledge or thought of the other person's unique situation.  I'm glad to hear you're speaking from a more empathetic place.  Now, try to understand that although it isn't good for you, and although it's unfortunate to have to take them, and they can cause dangerous side effects, - they are never the less - the BEST choice for SOME.  Just like Chemo or amputation is the best course for some.  You wouldn't lecture a cancer patient about the dangerous side effects of chemo drugs if they needed them to fight their cancer.  For the Chronic Pain patient in SEVERE unrelenting pain - there's little difference.  I again reiterate that I'm so glad you don't find yourself in our position.  Blessings,

Jan
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I never said I went to the ER, I went to my regular doc.
big difference
but it still shouldn't matter
(and thanks sara, but no need to beat yourself up anymore)
I don't have anger against you Nauty, just your silly ideas.
I just can't believe that you can't understand that not evry single person is addicted.
what you are suggesting is that those of us without addiction problems should be denied treatment.
that's pretty insane. that means my life would be finished.
for anyone with degenerative diseases that are in increasing amounts of pain(inc me)
all they would have to look foward to is thier life getting worse and worse until they can't take it anymore.
I don't think your opinion is informed.
these drugs were originally made to treat pain(and originally they were much stronger).
I just can't see how you can expect me to live the way i would live in your world.
The last time i was off my meds I lay in bed wasting away for 6 months. no a week of withdrawals, I lay inn bed unable to do anythnig except scream, cry, and wish to die.
my whole life would be like that if pain medication was taken away because you couldn't use it responsibly
yikes, i don't even know what to say.

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It' not anyone's fault.  If you take addictive drugs you can get addicted.  It can happen to bad people and great people.........the reason there is such an argument is because of the fine line of the subject.

Pain medication is not a solution.  Look into Montel Williams.....if anyone need be on pain meds. it would be him.  He realize early in his MS that they are a dead end road and uses other methods to treat his pain.  I understand that we are not millionaires and can get the best of the best treatments that he can, but I am just happy that I got away from them early.  I have a lot of life to live.  Popping a pill is way too easy.  I have a regimen I have to follow that takes an hour and a half everyday just to function.  If I had a pill It would be 20 min.  and poof.  I have to get up, shower, stretch for at least 3 0 mins. take my ibuprofen, coffee and pray the day is good.

Research Montel Williams, he is on television talking about this as I type...lol.  He is my inspiration.........Get his book.....whatever.  He is awesome.

Peace be with us all.

Luv,
Nauty...........
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Hello Everyone,

I think what Nauty is trying to say is that with better information provided by our Doctors, patients will be able to make better (and probably different) choices....and I agree 100%.

Had I been told about Tramadol addiction/withdrawals, I may have made a different choice...but instead I was told that it was NOT addicting...and ended up taking them for 5 years because I believed it...On the other hand, I wonder if the Doctors are like us, and believed (trusted) the pharamaceutical companies...I'm serious...Think about it. I'm not here to blame anyone. I'm trying to make things better for patients in the future that are prescribed (controversial) medications..


-A
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In short, without the correct info given...our choices weren't completely available..

-A
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if there's one thing I can agree with you on Nauty(and Amy) it's that dr's are rushed for time. that's bad no matter what.
Nauty - you seem to think that I have taken the easy way out. boy oh boy are you wrong.
I was doing those excercises in my teens, 45mins twice a day. I also took anti-inflammitories like you do. I also did massage therapy, chiro, physio, osteo, hydrotherapy, had bone scans, cat scans, mri's, went to pain clinics(multiple),ruematologists, surgical consults,TENS,and every single other option i could think of.
and my life was hell. most of that had happened by the time i was 20. i struggled for about 6-7 years more with virtually nothig but OTC meds. i was mostly bed ridden. sometimes upto 24hrs a day, usually 18-20hrs. and the hours i was up i could do no more than goto the toilet and eat a small meal.
part of my pain comes from degenerative issues, which means it's getting worse.
I was unable to work since the age of 19, and it's still deteriorating at age 32.
without narcotics I would be an absolute cripple.
and you think that's acceptable.
I don't. my meds don't allow me to have a proper life, but at least i can do some things around the house and go out occasionally.
you would deny me that?

take care y'all
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Obviously some people just don't understand until they have debilitating pain, and I mean debilitating. It sounds like some disagree because they have pain issues, but not to the point to where they cannot function. Until you have been in that situation it is just too hard to understand. If there is a way to get by without meds, then great, by all means do that and live a healthy life. But, at the same time, don't knock on someone else who has to take meds just to get up and function. And to say there is a fine line is kind of way off base. There is a huge line and one can take that kind of leap if they have that mentality or addiction potential. And to say everyone becomes addicted if they take addicting medications is way off base as well. There is a huge difference between addiction and dependance. Of course one would become dependant after taking a narcotic after any length of time. That is just natural. It doesn't mean you are bad for having a hard time coming off the meds. It's your body's way of telling you it is so used to the drug and will have to adjust when it is gone. That would go for many drugs. Just like with steroid therapy. After taking it for even a short amount of time at a cerain dose you have to taper off of it. That is why the medrol dose pack is the way it is.
Everyone has the right to their own opinion, it's just wrong when imposing it on others, especially when ill-imformed and very short minded. Just because one person can handle their pain in certain ways does not mean everyone else can. It also goes to say that everyone handles, processes, and tolerates pain at different levels. A pain level of 4 for me can be a 10 for someone else. I had a c-section and did not take anything for the pain after 12 hours. I still hurt, but I could handle it. It compared nowhere to the pain I felt after spinal fusion x2. I also had an umbilical hernia repair over a year ago. I was fine. I took a little percocet on the day of the surgery for about 24 hours, then only otc after that. Others had to have pain meds for days afterwards. Before the surgery I was on heavier narcotics, but took myself off about a week before. When it came time for surgery I was okay. It was not near as bad as I thought it was going to be.
I have been through too much and It is not worth explaining this to someone who has not dealt with this for so long, if in that position I am sure her mind would be changed. In the beginning I did not take pain meds like I do now. I could handle it in other ways as well. But when your quality of life is challenged to the point you would rather not live, I am sure there would be some changing of thoughts. I hope that day never comes for you. Good luck to you and I do hope you can manage what pain you do have non-narcoticly, as we all know, that is the best way to go if you can. I don't know how many times I have taken myself off meds just to see if I could handle it.
Suffice it to say, I couldn't.That is another difference between addicts and those who take responsibly. We try everything we can to not have to take the drug, while addicts try everything they can to obtain the drug. That is not a fine line to me.

Just thought I would add my 2 cents in.

Audrea
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"That is another difference between addicts and those who take responsibly. We try everything we can to not have to take the drug, while addicts try everything they can to obtain the drug. That is not a fine line to me. "

Touche' Audrea.
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I totally agree that everyone is different on how they deal with pain.  Maybe that is the core issue.  One person's 4 could be a 10 to another.  I am a chronic pain patient and all I am trying to say is eventually you will be cut-off of them and left to find your way. I have days where I can't move my hands, my legs, and my back feels like a 5 alarm fire.  I can't work either.  I found a way to bring in income where I don't have to go to work, as it would be impossible.  I could get government assistance, but choose not to. Maybe I am just being harsh cause I can do it........we are all different, and I am not taking this into consideration and I apologize.   I really do.  I am a believer that you don't judge until you have walked in others shoes.  I just have negativity against these drugs personally and was not taking that into consideration.  

Its not all about me.  But, I do have a right to my opinions.

I wish you all well.

luv,
Nauty

I stand firm on my belief of these drugs, but truly meant not to judge anyone, and I feel that's the way it came off.  I have no right to do that.  I do apologize for being so hard headed, but I have seen and heard so much that it enforced these strong opinions.

I hope whatever choices each and everyone of you choose is the best choice and wish you all the best and the quality of life you deserve.

Luv,
Nauty..........
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My two cents worth:  There are significant differences between doctors on the issue of narcotic prescribing.  I just came from giving a talk to a group of docs and nurse prescribers-- after the formal talk I had a nice discussion with a nurse from a regional pain clinic.  We talked about how her clinic sees the patients that no other doc will see-- people with chronic pain who need some amount of narcotic to make it through each day.  There are few doctors who will do the work of treating chronic pain the way it should be treated-- who will prescribe pain meds but provide the education and monitoring necessary to prevent problems from developing from tolerance and dependence.  Instead there are the docs who simply prescribe anything that the patient asks for, without taking the time to determine whether the options to narcotics have been tried... then there are many docs who simply say (they boast when they say this) 'I don't give pain pills to ANYONE'-- as if they are doing society a favor by saying no!   My point is that there is not one type of doctor, and there are more 'types' than the stereotypes that I just described.

Second, the vast majority of opiate addicts do not use opiates 'recreationally'.  That implies that the addict is somehow enjoying his/her use.  That stage of use is very short;  within a couple months most addicts have developed a situation where they are using to avoid being sick, and they are wishing that they had never started using.  I realize that the term 'recreation' is intended to separate the 'legitimate' from the 'non-legitimate' users, but that difference is not as great as you think.  The people who present to me for treatment of opiate dependence most often started their opiates by filling a prescription for a painful injury, and then found that they couldn't stop taking them.  Instead they used the pain pills that were laying around the house from prior surgeries, then they raided the medicine cabinet of mom and dad's place, then they started doc shopping or ordering off the internet.  

Third, and finally... even the line between 'real' pain and 'fake' pain is often difficult to find.  Many patients who are addicted to opiates, when asked if they 'really' have back pain, say 'I don't really know anymoe... I THINK so'.  The pain becomes something that seems to come from inside their heads in a way, and they start to question whether they are really hurting or whether instead they are afraid of withdrawal, and so they are taking pain pills for that.

Of course, there ARE patients with true, severe pain... for whom opiates are a clear necessity.  But there are fewer of THOSE patients than there are patients who fall into the 'confused' category... at least in my experience.
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Thank you Dr. J.  You made the point that I was trying to make.  As stated before, I am not one who is the most  gifted with words, but that is all I was trying to say.  Thank you.

Nauty.................
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all i'm concerned about is that the few who really need them(and i mean really)get them . It is difficult to listen to people say that nobody should take them after i have been through every possible alternate treatment over the last 18-19 years.
i do not hunt for pills from any sources(like other peoples medicine cabinets, nor the streets). I simply describe my pain to my dr and just want to be helped in a responsible way(for me).
I don't mind at all that people have different opinions to mine, I even defend thier rights to their opinion, but that changes when people start actively campainging to have my quality of life reduced to zero.
I have never said that i think dr's should hand out pills willy nilly.
yes i think they should be available short term to people in acute pain(accident victims, broken legs etc) and long term to people who have EXHAUSTED all other means).
So long as it's explained well and the patients understand the risks etc.
There ARE responsible dr's who prescribe them responsibly to patients who take them responsibly. why make them suffer?
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I feel invisible on this forum,I guess because I'm new.  I've seen my words reused by others and then commented on, but wonder if anyone 'hears' mine.  paranoia from narcotics?  ha!  I agree with everyone's statements, just have had a problem with attitudes.  However, as I stated in a previous post, I do appreciate naughty's admission of having sounded judgmental and being sorry for it.  I truly appreciate that, as it takes a lot to admit to having been overly critical.  Dr.,you bring up an important point, in that, when someone withdraws from a narcotic, pain is increased, and it is often difficult to judge where the pain is coming from. In an earlier post, I described the incident when I was in the hospital, and while there I asked and tried to reduce my narcotics.  When asked how my pain was, I told every doctor that it was bad, but I wanted to see if it was from the original source or from the withdrawal response.  It was when my pain dr. accidentally localized the pain to a very specific place by moving a leg (accidentally), showing that the pain was coming from one of the most painful original places - SI joint.  It is sharp, localized, and severe.The smallest of movement caused extreme sharp intolerable pain to which I responded with an involuntary scream! (I'd been lying motionless in bed til that point).  But since then, I've developed other disease states that create obvious, chronic, and progressive pain.  My labs, MRIs, CATscans, etc. all paint a picture of someone in pain.  Not one doctor has said anything other than what I already do.  "Do your best to take the least possible, and take the long acting before short acting".  My Pain management doctor has told my PCP that I need to be "treated aggressively for pain, as my condition is progressive and incurable.  I can't speak for others.  Some don't have that kind of obvious dx., but it doesn't make their pain any less real.

Having said everything I've said in this and previous posts - I believe many many people abuse prescription pain meds.  I believe some know they don't need them and seek them anyway, and some, like the Dr. said are no longer able to tell whether their pain is from a pathological process, or the drug withdrawal itself.  (which is also pathological - just not permanent)  My only point is that NO ONE - not doctors, not friends and relative, and certainly not strangers on the net, can tell how much pain someone else is in.  Not just how much pain a person FEELS given the SAME stimulus as someone else - but rather how much actual adverse nerve stimulation a person is experiencing.  So many try to make it be about what someone can tolerate.  How about realizing that some are just really having more pain than you.

Perhaps its human nature to try to imagine everyone experiencing life the same way you do, but the fact is, just because you've had a broken bone, doesn't mean you know what it feels like for someone else's broken bone.  Yours might be greenstick and the other person's a compound open fracture, with crushing and massive jagged exit wound - WITH INFECTION!  Kind of like a man saying he knows about child birth because he's had a large bowel movement!  Pain is not Pain is not Pain etc.  There are degrees. Beyond that, there are differences in the nerve transmission - frequency of impulses, speed of travel, # of nerve endings etc.  Then there's the perception of pain with differences in the cognitive experience of pain - which is physiological, not psychological.  Lastly, there's a psychological component.  With all of these differences, it makes it very difficult for both the doctor AND the patient.

In a perfect world, there would be compassion and using the benefit of the doubt, narcotics given, for a patient presenting with serious pain, followed by giving the all possible alternative coping strategies and therapeutic methods of treating the pain prior to continued narcotic therapy.  If proper trials with other methods are tried, and there appears to be a legitimate need, the patient should receive a referral to a pain specialist and treated with compassion and dignity - not as a suspected criminal.  Those thought to be abusing the drugs, should be monitored and weaned off if necessary.  It is something that should be between the patient and the doctor.

One thing I've never heard of is so many people having no knowledge of narcotic's addictive potential and the distinction between tolerance, dependence, and addiction.  The terms are both the same and vastly different.  Motivation and intent make them different - NOT the physiological processes.  Dosing strengths and frequencies also increase or decrease likelihood of abuse. That's why the warnings to not take more or more frequently than prescribed are on the bottle and in the Rx leaflet.

Check out my profile for those interested.  I've been on the MS, GP, Autoimmune and connective tissue forums due to having Systemic Sclerosis w/ Pulmonary Hypertension and Barrett's and Scleroderma Esophagus as well as having osteoporosis, and other forums, but am new to this one.  My sympathies go out to all who share my struggle with pain - no matter how you're dealing with it.  What's important is that you each find something that works for you.

Thank you naughty for your willingness to listen to others on a topic you're passionate about.  And thanks to all on the forum, as I enjoy learning how others are dealing with this terrible issue.

Blessings, Jan
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We hear you, you're not invisible. I love the way you express yourself. I'm sure others appreciate your style too.

Nick
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You know it's funny how your post provoked a silly thought, but relevant.  I laugh at my mother when she uses mild salsa.......it is not hot to me at all.  If she were to use the salsa I use, she would be screaming FIRE.

Like you stated our anatomy is the same.  Two people may have the same injury, but who can determine the level of pain they feel.  Only that individual.  We all have different pain thresholds and that's where the issue may lie, and how can any individual (doctor) determine this, so that is where the gray area is.  Some things are just obvious, but the human body is so complex, and when we start getting into diagnosis what does a physician rely on ?.....he/she can't.  I am not talking about the addict that goes to the streets, steals, and harms others in order to get a fix.  That's a whole different ballpark and I think that is where I was being so misunderstood.  The stereotype, or stigma that goes along with the word "Addict" ...Well, I don't have to go into that, but that was what I was referring to when I stated that I felt there were many addicts in the pain management forum "sugarcoating" .  When you take addictive drugs you can get addictive, and I feel if you take them for any length of time...you are an addict, and that doesn't make you bad.  There are are degrees to addiction and if you are dependent then your good, if your addicted......your bad, and that's just not true, and that's the point I was trying to make.  Nobody has a problem saying they are a coffee, chocolate, or even smoking........why are those joked about and ok to talk and laugh about, but saying I'm addicted to medication "taboo"  that's my point. Period.  Just get real.  There is shame in admitting being addicted to meds., but not the others, which makes me feel that person is feeling shame and guilt within themselves.

It took me so long to get over the depression that I am not going to be the same, or be able to do the same things.  I was miserable.  I find the things that didn't work for me when I was on pills work for me now......why?  because I was introduced to the drugs first before the other options.  Now the other options take effort and time.  We live in an instant gratification world.  To put it frankly........We are lazy.  My point being that it  is so much faster to pop a pill then to decompress, use the tens, and use good posture and common sense.  We are dealt the cards and we have to work with it.  If I knew nothing of the narcotic's and was given the other options, what I didn't know that came in pill form probably would have worked because I would have not known any better.

I am not saying that people don't need pain meds. for certain conditions.....please.  But, they are handed out like candy.  I've seen it.  Dr's and even Dentists who will refill for minor procedures for months or who knows how long.  Many don't give a ****....I had a root canal and got vicodin refills for 2 months?.......I just did it for someone else, but he kept refilling???.......that's what ticks me off, and because they know you can't die from withdrawal.........they don't give rats a$$

My doctor initially was going to prescribe me Oxy before trying something less potent ....I refused and then he gave me darvocet and I was still in pain, but it was tolerable.

I think so much is mental.  When we are told we have a disease, esp. degenerate disc disease, which most of us have or will have.....and don't find out until we get injured.  I think it causes depression......"I have a disease".......and it gives us even more reason to tell ourselves its ok to pop pills.

Not meant to tick anyone off.  Just expressing myself because as you said Jan, this is a fire issue for me.

Nauty..............

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Avatar_m_tn
You still don't get the difference, as shown by:

"You were rejected or referred to "Pain Management"  because they thought you were a drug seeker."

That's a load of bull-****, plain and simple. If you were a drug seeker, why on earth would  doctors send you to a place likely to use opiates as a treatment for pain? My doctor sent me there because after 2 years of many doctors and attempted treatments, the problem couldn't be fixed.

Being on opiates for a long time does NOT make one an addict, you need to learn the difference. You can become dependent on the INTERNET, or COFFEE too! Dependence will happen with these drugs, but it's way, way different than full blown addiction.

Also to say you can stretch and take Ibuprofen and be fine, and seem to expect that of others is laughable....don't you think most have tried that? Sorry hun, it doesn't work. 8 different Physical Therapy places didn't work either. Surgery didn't work. If there was a simple fix to our pain, we'd have done it. Opiods are a last resort to be able to live your life, and that by no means makes you an addict. Would you say someone on blood pressure meds to stay healthy is an addict?

Just because you've seen a doctor prescribe too much means nothing. I know a woman who's crashed 4 vehicles, does that mean most women crash cars? No. When I got 4 impacted wisdom teeth removed I got TEN Percocets, and I had to take 2 at a time for any relief and they refused any more!

So please, stop imposing your opinions and worldview and thinking that's how everything works. It isn't.
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Avatar_f_tn
I give up.  It appears I am not the brick wall.  And, I never was never accused of being a drug seeker.  I was having problems at work and PAIN.  I went to see the doctor and was given Ibuprofen and it barely helped.  I went back and they upped it to darvocet.  I believe my symptoms and the fact that they were not getting better warranted at least an X-ray?....no.  Almost 6 months later I tried what I call alternative medicine and went to see a Chiro.  That's when I found out my entire cervical spine is completely herniated EVERY DISC with 1 with moderate and the other moderate to severe.  Please don't imply that I don't feel pain.  I do require surgery, but it is my choice Not to have it.

I do not enjoy........not being able to use my upper extremities for any long period of time, nor do I not enjoy Not being able to wear high heel shoes because my whole left side is numb and in pain, which  affects my gait, and will stumble or fall, which has happened only to hurt myself more.  I don't enjoy not enjoying life sitting on the sideline because I can't play with the rest of the kids...maybe you don't understand how not being able to wear a pair of nice sexy shoes..... a woman affects me!  

I can't lift, stand, sit or squat for any period of time without being in misery.  I take neurontin and advil, Ibuprofen......BY CHoice because all the doc's want to do is raise that dose.  No way! not for me.

Please just read my posts before you misquote or misinterpret what I am saying.  I think I made my argument as I see and feel, and there's nothing wrong with that....Is there?

nauty..........I hope this is somewhat readable......as I am sick as a dog and half asleep......read your post and had to respond.  Now I am off to the ER.....lol.  Good Lord!

Peace
Nauty.............
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Avatar_f_tn
that wold be cord impingement along with the moderate and  severe.......ah.  had to throw that in.......off to the ER...... take care.......
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Avatar_n_tn
Just because you think or say your not addicted or not an addict doesnt mean you arent.  Your either in denial or havent taken the meds long enough.  Bottom line is being dependent is basically the same as addicted.  If you cannot stop taking it your addicted, regarldess of why.  For anyone to jump so quick to flame someone else of their opinion must obviously mean it struck a nerve and you feel a reason to defend yourself.  Everyone neds to be real with theirselves.  Its ridiculous for someone to say its okay for them to take them but the next person isnt.  Come on now!
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Avatar_m_tn
Wrong you are, and I was waiting for that. Dependence and addiction are not the same thing, and it strikes a nerve to be told you're an addict when you aren't.

So take the soapbox elsewhere please.
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Avatar_n_tn
This is only my 2nd post on this board but I want to say something.

I know alot about Montel Williams and he hasn't had MS for very long.  By the time he got it there were already really effective medications/treatments for it.  My mom was diagnosed over 25 years ago when nobody really knew much about it.  She had 6 kids and a job, no nannies, maids, etc...  Montel Williams probably has lots of time to do yoga and meditate get accupuncture or whatever.  What does an average person with a real life do in that case?  

Also, naughty I'm so extremely curious what you do that's not work/not government assistance---yet still produces an income?  And the high heel thing's pretty confusing to me as well.  Do you have kids? responsibilities?  Many of us just don't have lives that allow us the freedom to feel bad about not being able to wear heels.  
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Avatar_n_tn
Ok well when your pain stops, abruptly stop the opiates and im sure your not going to have any withdrawals.
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How about everyone just agree that it IS addiction, (I tell people I'm addicted, because I don't mind the term) but that there are different types of addiction.  One where you seek the drugs when it isn't actually necessary, or that there are other things that would work - and the other is when you take the narcotics for a long period of time due to legitimate need after having tried everything else, and you become dependent physiologically.  If I only had the pain I have from my C1-C7 being all herniated and C3-4 having a bone spur that causes foramin narrowing and nerve impingement, I wouldn't need anything but physical therapy.  I now understand your situation.  Many in that situation feel different levels of pain, however, as you said, but I just wanted to clarify that others, me, have that as one of the minor problems.  I don't really think there are any people who have all the diseases and disorders I have and believe me, I don't say that with some sort of sick pride, but to point out how different we are - as even Nauty accepts.

JaggedLittlePill, - people who are dependent on narcotics DO have withdrawal symptoms and they know it.  They are only stating that they aren't taking them by choice, or to get high.

I believe everyone could agree on this, I really do.  It's a communication problem that gets compounded by emotions.  Yesterday was my Bday and I had to spend it in bed.  Even WITH narcotics, I wasn't able to move an inch.  The day was spent moaning and groaning.  Quite a celebration!

Take care everyone, and try not to worry about anyone except yourself.  After all, it's enough to worry about, right?

Blessings, Jan  And BTW, I'm addicted to diet-coke (caffeine), also.  when I stop, my blood vessels dilate and I get a headache that won't stop!
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Avatar_f_tn
I run my own ONLINE business. Not sit on my butt collecting SSI.    And, I don't know about you, but I love Sexy High heel shoes.  I am not a female truck driver, nor do wear wranglers and plaid shirts, and spit chewing tobacco, so, it's not cool to stereo people.  

I hope I answered all of your question.  I really don't see any reason to respond to this post any further.  If you find any truth in this thread or want to be in denial...then that's ok too.......I really enjoyed reading most of the posts, and the debate was quite interesting if you read very closely..........

The statement about Montel Williams was completely FALSE....at least google him first so you don't make yourself look ...um....best to get your facts straight.

God Bless all who suffer chronic pain, addiction, dependence, and any "pain management" patient.  We are all entitled to our opinions and I have much respect for all who voiced......Peace~

Nauty...........
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710547_tn?1295449630
Nauty, I think it was wise to suggest this thread  come to a close, but I just had to comment on the high heels and a couple quick things.  You go girl! on the sexy shoe thing!  I can't wear them anymore and there probably aren't many who are all that choked up about it! lol, but they ARE wonderful, and make you feel SO GOOD!  Everyone has to have something that makes them feel good about themselves - how they look, feel, whatever - and no matter what it is that is taken away by a disease or condition - it's a loss!  And we ALL mourn losses, even if they're different from someone else.

Also,  jsuzanne, Montel has had MS for quite a while.  AND - he DOES have a real life.  Just lives part of it in the limelight.  Montel is a very busy man.  Who ever got the idea that being famous means you have a lot of free time - that one doesn't make much sense to me - but...again, everyone's different. I've found that most - not all - of the things money can buy, as far as alternative therapy is concerned, a motivated patient can do on their own.  For example, you don't need a gym membership to do yoga or work out, and as far as having time to meditate etc., - I have MS, and time isn't the factor.  MS is a very variable disease, as I'm sure you know.  Everyone's symptoms are different.  Everyone responds to treatment differently.  So it's a bad disease to use to compare people.  (I DO wish I had the money to be treated with acupuncture though!)  I believe meditation can be a very powerful thing, but it isn't going to take everyone's pain away - no matter how much free time they have.  Also, the drugs that have come out recently - I've tried, and I can't tolerate them, and am going to have to go on an old one instead.  Sorry about your mom - I know being sick with kids is very very hard.  We're all in this together - just trying to have the best life possible - given our own unique set of circumstances.  I would imagine there are things you feel very sad about not being able to do anymore that others would find to be of less importance.  It's what makes us interesting!  One person's high heels might be another's game of tennis.  I know I can't possibly understand another person's burdens.  Sounds like you have a lot to juggle and I wish you well.

Blessings to all, and may all your nerves fire with less intensity!  Jan
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Avatar_m_tn
I can't agree it's addiction as you want it to be. I smoke cigarettes, and I'm a nicotine addict. When I stop smoking, the difference between that and stopping opiates is night and day. The worst part about stopping opiates is the pain that quickly overtakes me, not the withdrawal.

When I quit smoking I become a demon, I can't even see straight, concentrate, I sweat, I wake up with nightmares, it's awful.

So I know the difference, and there is one. Perhaps for some that difference isn't as apparent, but it is to me.
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Avatar_n_tn
And when you're in severe pain you're probably not posting on the internet worried about petty things then saying you're off to the emergency room at the same time.  That's what I don't get.  It seems like some people don't understand what real pain actually is, so it's easy for them to make judgement calls and say others don't need medication when in reality they're the ones who don't need it.

I was recently told I probably have endometriosis (FINALLY I got my own prescription for vicodin)  and when the cramping starts it's like being in labor, there's no way in *H* I could be sitting and writing on a computer.
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Avatar_m_tn
Here's a good article for those who believe addiction and dependence are one in the same:

http://www.cpmission.com/main/dispelling.html

"Pain patients very rarely become addicted"

Disagree if you must.
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Avatar_f_tn
I left a post  for the Dr. & have been seeking answers since I have quit my meds, which by the way ended up being methodone. I have a very bad back problem that I was born with, but did not start feeling the pain until my 1st daughter was born. I did not get on pain meds until years later when my nerve canal flared up & I could not get off the floor. At that time I was referred to a pain manageent  dr. & he prescribed me #10 vicdin @ 8 pills a day. I was on those for about 3mos. After having injections the pain was gone, but my back always hurts even if I clean the house. The pronlem is after the injections I tried to not take the meds anymore, but the withdrawls were  worse than the back pain.so bad I panicked & kept taking the meds until those pills weren't strong enough anymore. The body builds up a tolerance to the meds, so the next step is to go on a stronger med & so the spiral goes. Eventually no med works anymore, so they put you on methodone, which gives you no high or pain relief, it just keeps you out of withdrawl (withdrawal) from the opiates. This is where my problem lies, because there comes a point in peoples lives where they get tired of the drug controlling their lives, & the cost of the drug gets very exspensive. Now you want to get off of them once & for all, then the pain really begins for people in my situation. I totally understand cp, but I am also living in the reality of getting off of these meds, * if I  knew more about the meds, & did my homework  I   would have done  because no one worned me about the sufferring I would be going through, I would have made better choices. I am not saying that all you who have cp for whatever reason should be punished for people who have made stupid mistakes like myself, (but while in horrible pain ) I wasn't making a mistake I was only trying to get through the pain, but I should have done whatever it took to quit the meds then. I could have quit alot easier than what I am going through now. I have been off of methodone for 3 wks, & I am still sufferring the consiquences from long term use & regretting taking any meds because of the HELL I am now going through.So for anyone out there who is taking their meds today that don't really need them like they think they do anymore, or are just afraid of the withdrawls, because they have tried to quit & suffered more from that then the actual pain itself, please think about it before you continue to take more & more pills or get on stronger pills, & last but not least for anyone who is referred to methodone to get off of opiates " please don't do  it " it is by far the most difficult withdrawl (withdrawal) & longest sufferring you will ever experience in your life. I worry about all of the people on here who have cp, & will have to take meds possibly forever because of the tolerance level, & the fact that your meds will eventually not work anymore, so your dr. will have to increase your dose over & over again until they put you on methodone. good luck to you all!!
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Avatar_m_tn
http://health.discovery.com/centers/pain/medicine/med_addict.html

"The pain patient who is effectively treated with opioids finds life restored-even if he is dependent on them. With the pain muted by stable and steady controlled use of long-acting opioids, a patient can reclaim his life, go back to work, return to family life, and pursue favorite pastimes. Dependence is a physical state that occurs when the lack of a drug causes the body to have a reaction. Physical dependence is solely a physical state indicating that the body has grown so adapted to having the drug present that sudden removal of it will lead to negative consequences such as a withdrawal reaction. This can occur with almost any kind of drug."

Just remember Reno, being an addict and building tolerance/dependence is not the same thing at all.
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264121_tn?1313033056
I find centers with cajones big enough to treat patients adequately for their pain to be few and far between, but also, of a lot higher caliber in terms of their patient care.  I am not going to start nursing just to watch people suffer through pain needlessly.  Some people do need chronic pain relief and if they have a problem, the response can be based on a case by case bases.
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A related discussion, Pain Management Program Experience was started.
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