Help

[Helpless123]

I am desperate to stop drinking alcohol.  It seems like I cannot make it a day without. Just some background in '06 I decided to try an IOP program after 3 months, I was recommended to do 30 days in "h**ll" for inpatient therapy.  AA does not do it for me.  Based on that info. does anyone have an idea of what I should do now?  I also suffer from extreme OCD and Bi-polar 1.  I have so many battles going on in my head, I need some serious guidance.  I have a psych. for meds, and see an OCD counselor. She wants me to get off the alcohol so I can just work on the OCD.  Life is looking pretty grim for me.  I feel like I stand alone.  My husband is very supportive.  

I am bouncing around ideas - should I detox - then enroll in an IOP?  Should I try another 21 day program (which makes me sick) I had a horrible experience at my local one. I didn't get my completion coin because I drank on my weekend pass and had a friend sneak out a window to buy alcohol.

My life *****.  Anyone have any suggestions?

[rod44]

HI
I am curious as to  why AA dose not work for you.
For AA to work you need to get involved doing service, get a sponsor and work the program.
Give it an honest try.
rod44

[Ked11]

Have you tried taking Antabuse?  It is a prescription drug that you take daily.  If you drink while on it, you get violently ill.  I don't want you to get sick, but it could work as a deterrant.

[PixieNYC]

I personally do not like the idea of Antabus (but then again, it may help you as it helped others) ; it doesn't help with the mind set, the psychological issues. Campral can help you, it'll help with the cravings, but only AFTER you've detoxed. I respect that you have problems with AA, not everybody "likes" it, BUT you have to remember that it is your own choice that you drank while tryi g to work it. Also, one bad experience doesn't mean it can't work out some other timw. However, it's your choice and your feelings, but you MUST detox. I would go to the hospital to do that. They'll help you through that process with tranquilizers, vitamin B, potassium, rest, and food when you are able to eat. After that you need a pragram of sorts if you're not the type of person who can "jusy" tell herself to not drink. There are other alternatives than AA; Google it! Rehab is very expensive, but if you talk to your local social workers they can help you to find something you can get into without a cost. I don't know if you have insurance, medicaid or nothing so it all depends. I have issues with AA, too, but it is good for me all the same. However, I live in New York City and here there is thousands and thousands of different meetings every day/ night all over the year. My groupos are just wonderful and it's the people themselves rather than the philosophy that help me. THE most important thing, though, is that you WANT to stop drinking. Also, not only do you HAVE to to treat your psychological afflictions, just like your doctor said, but your psychological issues can also be a mere RESULT of your drinking! You must detox as soon as you can! Good luck and all the best! Kindly/ Pia

[Helpless123]

Thanks for the info.  I've done the Campral and Naltrexone route.  They only cut my limit of how much I drink.  When I was in rehab I had to go to an AA meeting everyday - no excuses.  I don't like the no choice deal.  I was paying big bucks - they needed to taylor more to my needs.  I have found a (local) 3 1/2 hours away rehab.  My lcsw has heard nothing bad from the clients he has sent there.  However, I have to get approval from my insurance to go.  Then I have this desire not to go, because I have a 9 year old and frankly it's hard to explain all of mom's problems to her.  Today is a really bad for me.  I'll probably end up in bed all day.  Some days it just seems like why try.  I have really put my heart into this all week - I all I seem to get are dead ends. Thanks for listening.

[Helpless123]

AA was my first attempt at getting sober.  It was at my church - I felt very uneasy.  No one seemed to acknowledge me.  One woman said "why are you hear? you can't possibly have a problem.  That was a huge turn off for me. I know, I know, you are going to say look around for other meetings get a sponsor.  When I was in rehab I had to attend every day. All were about chanting and listening to war stories.  This made want to drink even more.  I may try AA again but, it will be a last ditch effort. thanks

[Helpless123]

I have thougt long and hard about Antabuse - it is just not practical for me.  I use alcohol as a decontaminate for my (OCD) and I am not giving up everything toiletry with alcohol in it.  Thanks for the idea.

[rod44]

Hi,
Ok please do not be offended but all I can see from your posts are excuses, it seems you want an easy solution. I was like that,  made excuses, refused to try what was suggested, I tried to stop on my terms but it never worked. When I was in treatment I got a rude awakening, I got lambasted by my peers and councillors until I realised no matter what way I tried to get sober it had to be with the help and guidance of people who had been there. In AA I had to listen and hear everything not just the parts I wanted to hear then I had to filter the stuff (war storeys) and identify with the parts of them that applied to me, listened to how they overcame issues and learned from them.. This was hard because I was judgmental of the people and there against my will or so I felt.  
Detox is about cleaning the body of the toxins we accumulate when we drink.
Rehab is about learning about how to get through the day without a drink.
AA is about cleaning up the mind, it is to remind ourselves of our shortcomings, it reminds us how it was when we were drinking, what it was like getting sober and what it is like now that we are sober. You use AA, take the good and leave the rest behind but you must be prepared to surrender the grip that addiction has on you.
YOU ARE NOT ALONE IN THIS, you can overcome this but stop making excuses and Instead of “I cant” or “why” say “why not”

Have you tried CBT. It is now been used to tread addicts as well as OCD.
Hope this makes sense.
rod.

[Helpless123]

What is CBT?  Tell me more and where i can go.

Thanks for the info.

P

[rod44]

Hi,
Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, it  was first used for treating OCD but is now been used in Addiction and other depressive illness. If you Google it to learn more. I have a friend who is very well today after CBT, she also had OCD and addiction issues.
ROD

[rod44]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy

[SensibleInSarnia]

You're quite right: AA isn't for everybody. Estimates of success rates are in the range of 5% - 10%, allowing for the anonymity factor. Some studies show AA is detrimental to many, who find no solace or motivation from "War Stories" or the curious "12-Steps" influenced by Judeo-Christian beliefs.

You've tried it; many swear by it, but you don't sound like a candidate. The seizure window is, at maximum, 36 hours, so, generally, Valium is used for about a week on a tapering schedule.

It is a tenacious addiction -- afraid to go out, lest you pass a bar (hard not to do), and individual counselling doesn't occupy that much time.

One thing about AA, or Rational Recovery meetings, is that you spend an hour getting there, and two hours in the meetings, and another hour getting home ... four hours when you're not drinking. And you might find a compatible group and forge connections.

Hard to tackle this one on your own.

Best of luck.

[rod44]

You are quoting statistics but don’t give a source for these statistics.  
AA works for me, I agree it dose not work for others, I often wonder why…
At the end of the day we here suggest ideas that have helped, I personally do not or would not find fault with an organisation that works for thousands worldwide and has done so since 1935.

[ibizan]

i've gone to AA NA SOS RR...i took what i could use and left the rest.i wouldn't have 25 years clean/sober minus this plus 25 days of inpatient in 1983.i stopped because i accepted total loss of control over substances having failed many times at so-called controlled use which is a fallacy for me!if u went to any lengths to drink drug and continue ur addiction..then one should take that same energy and apply it toward recovery...it is work well worth it if u want it..with NO excuses!:)

[SensibleInSarnia]

I'm not saying AA is a wicked cult, but if you want references, google "AA Success Rates," and prepare for a few weeks tracking down the sources ...

[rod44]

With respect
I accept your apparent resentment of AA  but I would suggest that you let people make there own judgements on AA.
ROD

[SensibleInSarnia]

...which is what I've done -- are you suggesting that scientific research is invalid when it comes to addiction?

I provided the research you found lacking in my initial post, and now you presume to advise others to ignore it?

I don't understand your assumption that I'm advising people here to avoid AA -- I'm merely pointing out that for those who find it lacking, alternatives exist. In other words, if AA doesn't work for someone, it's not the ultimate failure or by any means, the end of the road.

I've spent a few days reading the research papers, and I'm quite surprised at the conclusions. If you quash active debate, you isolate yourself from intellectual progress.
i've found

[SensibleInSarnia]

This brief sampling of research is hardly an all-condemning attack on AA. Lots of helpful information, if you wish to investigate ...


The following four items describe spontaneous remission in alcoholics (from Bufe):

Recovery Without Treatment, by Thomas Prugh
Alcohol Health and Research World, Fall 1986, pp. 24, 71 and 72.

Alcoholism as a Self-Limiting Disease, by Leslie R. H. Drew
Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol, Vol. 29, 1968, pp. 956-967.

Spontaneous Remission in Alcoholics: Empirical Observations and Theoretical Implications, by Barry S. Tuchfeld
Journal of Studies on Alcohol, Vol. 42, No. 7, 1981, pp. 626-641.

Spontaneous Recovery in Alcoholics: A Review and Analysis of the Available Research, by R. G. Smart
Drug and Alcohol Dependence, Vol. 1, 1975-1976, p. 284.



References cited by Christine Le, Erik P. Ingvarson, and Richard C. Page,
in the excerpt from: Alcoholics Anonymous and the Counseling Profession: Philosophies in Conflict, in Journal of Counseling & Development, 07-01-1995, page 603.

    * Bebbington, P. E. (1976). The efficacy of alcoholics anonymous: The elusiveness of hard data. British Journal of Psychiatry, 128, 572- 580.

    * Bufe, C. Q. (1991). Alcoholics Anonymous: Cult or cure? San Francisco, CA: See Sharp.

    * Cross, G. M., Morgan, C. W., Mooney, A. J., Martin, C. A., & Rafter, J. A. (1990). Alcoholism treatment: A ten-year follow-up study. Alcoholism: Clinical and Experimental Research, 14(2), 169-173.

    * Glaser, E B., & Ogborne, A. C. (1982). Does AA really work? British Journal of Addiction, 77, 123-129

    * Hoffman, N. G., Harrison, P. A., & Belille, C. A. (1983). Alcoholics Anonymous after treatment: Attendance and abstinence. International Journal of the Addictions, 18(3), 311-318.

    * McBride, J. L. (1991). Abstinence among members of Alcoholics Anonymous. Alcoholism Treatment Quarterly, 8(1), 113-121.

    * Thurstin, A. H., Alfano, A. M., & Nerviano, V. J. (1987). The efficacy of AA attendance for aftercare of inpatient alcoholics: Some follow-up data. International Journal of the Addictions, 22, 1083-1090.

    * Vaillant, G. (1983). The Natural History of Alcoholism: Causes, Patterns, and Paths to Recovery. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University.



References cited by Prof. George Vaillant
in the quotes from The Natural History of Alcoholism: Causes, Patterns, and Paths to Recovery:

    * Baekeland, F., L. Lundwall, and B. Kissin. 1975. "Methods for the Treatment of Chronic Alcoholism: A Critical Appraisal." In Research Advances in Alcohol and Drug Problems, Vol. 2, ed. R. J. Gibbons, Y. Israel, H. Kalant, R. E. Popham, W. Schmidt, and R. G. Smart. New York: Wiley.

    * Beaubrun, M. H. 1967. "Treatment of Alcoholism in Trinidad and Tobago, 1956-65." British Journal of Psychiatry 113:643-658.

    * Belasco, J. A. 1971. "The Criterion Question Revisited." British Journal of Addiction 66:39-44.

    * Bratfos, O. 1974. The Course of Alcoholism: Drinking, Social Adjustment and Health. Oslo: Universitet Forlaget.

    * Bruun, K. 1963. "Outcome of Different Types of Treatment of Alcoholics." Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol 24:280-288.

    * Cecil, R. 1940. Textbook of Medicine. New York: Saunders

    * Costello, R. M. 1975. "Alcoholism Treatment and Evaluation, II: Collation of Two Year Follow-up Studies." International Journal of Addictions 10:857-867.

    * Emrick, C. D. 1975. "A Review of Psychologically Oriented Treatment of Alcoholism, II: The Relative Effectiveness of Different Treatment Approaches and the Effectiveness of Treatment versus No Treatment." Journal of Studies on Alcohol 36:88-109.

    * Farquhar, J. 1978. "The Community-Based Model of Life Style Intervention Trails." American Journal of Epidemiology 108:103-111.

    * Farquhar, J. W., N. Maccoby, P. D. Wood, J. K. Alexander, H. Breitrose, B. W. Brown, Jr., W. L. Haskell, A. L. McAlister, A. J. Meyer, J. D. Nash, and M. P. Stern. 1977. "Community Education for Cardiovascular Health." Lancet 1:1192-1195.

    * Frank, J. D. 1961. Persuasion and Healing: A Comparative Study of Psychotherapy. Baltimore: Johns Hopkins University Press.

    * Goodwin, D. W., J. B. Crane, and S. B. Guze. 1971. "Felons Who Drink: An 8-Year Follow-up." Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol 32:136-147.

    * Gordis, E. 1976. "Editorial: What is Alcoholism Research?" Annals of Internal Medicine 85:821-823.

    * Hill, M. J., and H. T. Blane. 1967. "Evaluation of Psychotherapy with Alcoholics: A Critical Review." Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol 28:76-104.

    * Imber, S., E. Schultz, F. Funderburk, R. Allen, and R. Flamer. 1976. "The Fate of the Untreated Alcoholic." Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease 162(4):238-247.

    * Kendell, R. E., and M. C. Staton. 1966. "The Fate of Untreated Alcoholics." Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol 27:30-41.

    * Kissin, B. 1977. "Comments on Alcoholism: A Controlled Trial of 'Treatment' and 'Advice'." Journal of Studies on Alcohol 38:1804-1808.

    * Lundquist, G. A. R. 1973. "Alcohol Dependence." Acta Psychiatrica Scandinavica 49:332-340.

    * Myerson, D. J., and J. Mayer. 1966. "Origins, Treatment and Destiny of Skid Row Alcoholic Men." New England Journal of Medicine 275:419-424.

    * Orford, J. and G. Edwards. 1977. Alcoholism. New York: Oxford University Press.

    * Robson, R. A., I. Paulus, and G. G. Clarke. 1965. "An Evaluation of the Effect of a Clinic Treatment Program on the Rehabilitation of Alcoholic Patients." Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol 26:264-278.

    * Shadel, C. A. 1944. "Aversion Treatment of Alcohol Addiction." Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol 5:216-228.

    * Sobell, M. B., and L. C. Sobell. 1973. "Alcoholics Treated by Individualized Behavior Therapy: One Year Treatment Outcome." Behavior Research and Therapy 11:599-618.

    * van Dijk, W. K., and A. van Dijk-Koffeman. 1973. "A Follow-up Study of 211 Treated Male Alcoholic Addicts." British Journal of Psychiatry 111:348-356.

    * Voegtlin, W. L., and W. R. Broz. 1949. "The Conditioned Reflex Treatment of Chronic Alcoholism, X: An Analysis of 3125 Admissions over a Period of Ten and a Half Years." Annals of Internal Medicine 30:580-597.

    * Wallerstein, R. S. 1956. "Comparative Study of Treatment Methods for Chronic Alcoholism: The Alcoholism Research Project at Winter V.A. Hospital." American Journal of Psychiatry 113:228-233.

[ibizan]

AA inpatient and oupatient all have poor success rates statistically......one out of 10 ppl stay sober the first year all three are attempted.I'm well versed with the studies....dayjob is substance abuse counselor for 24 years....these studies show statistics but do not gauge the persons readiness or committment towards abstinence.I CHOSE....I DECIDED...to NOT be one of the numbers that relapsed.All of this is up 2 the individual..plain and simple!Ever hear the saying there r those to smart to get sober?Alocholics/addicts rationalize/intellectualize in heaps why they cannot quit.....i listen to it on a daily basis and have watched those recover who defied the odds....it is in my observation and personal experience a personal choice!

[dominosarah]

I dont follow statistics much cuz the bottom line here is how bad do you want to stay sober? Once i finally realized i was powerless over drugs and alcohol i decided i would move heaven and earth to get myself clean and i am a firm believer in aftercare whether it be AA,NA, therapist, counselor or a minister.  Getting clean is the easy part, staying clean is the hard part.  Facing my demons is a must for me.  I no longer want to numb myself.  I face my hardships head on. I abused my body and mind for 30 plus years and today i am sober and clean.  Doesnt get any better than that.        sara

[rod44]

Ditto my friend, that is what it is all about, happiness and peace of mind in sorority.

Ok take all your research , all your scientific stuff and what do we learn….nothing. Yes there is failure. Failure to get sober is down to individual and how badly they want it,You don’t need to be an intellect to know this do you?

What solutions has scientific research and the medical comunity come up with when it comes to drunks getting sober?
Ray

[ibizan]

I'm with u 2 all the way in your comments!Research has not seemed to track the ppl who get sober via family support,church or alternative methods.We have many ppl who come thru our clinic who find traditional 12 step unpalatable which is ok....they are voluntary programs....and these folks manage to stay sober/clean!a good friend of mine now deceased once said there are many roads to recovery!

[ibizan]

this is not a forum for debates on the validity and efficacy of research articles on the treatment of alcoholism.Med help moderators will occasionally go thru these posts and delete book references.I recall something to the effect of it being against their policy on non-endorsement of one form of treatment over another and not wanting it to appear that they were endorsing all the article references u posted.

[rod44]

Hi Helpless,
I am sober to day because of the help and good advice I got from people that i met in AA who like ibizan, tjack and the other good people here just want to get and stay sober, I am sober today because of the continued support of these friends, I respect the views and wishes of others and that is why when the doctors and councillors in the mental health unit I was a patent of suggested I go to an open AA meeting I did. The doctors said they could treat the associated depression with medication and counselling but that I needed to look to within myself, see the destructive path I was on, identify and take responsibility for my drinking and decide if I wanted to get sober. This is the dilemma that each one faces when getting sober, recognising there problem and then accepting it, when you do this you can move on to recovering.
Ray

[dominosarah]

I also get together a couple times a week at the local coffee shop with about 6 other people who are recovering but didnt feel comfortable at AA.  We talk about everything under the sun, our struggles and our triumphs.  I am the one with the least amount of clean time there.  Most have 15-20 yrs clean.  We have all admitted we are powerless over alcohol and drugs and are committed to our recovery.  As ibizan said there are many roads to recovery......sara

[ibizan]

i have this incredibly worn out 24 hr.book called Each Day a New
Beginning by Hazleden.it has daily meditations which r really on the button.I have a sister in Oregon who is a devout practicing Buddhist.She turned me on2 a lot of buddhist readings..philosophies...those folks have some of the best anger managment and stress reduction thinking readings. so calming to our overactive brains.....there is such a wealth of information and groups out there that can help u...it all can work if ur willing to work at it:)

[rod44]

Hi dominosarah
like you I meet friends for coffee every other day, they are mostly but not all members, that is called living, keep doing that and you have nothing to fear.Keep life simple

I am only sober today. Yesterday is past, tomorrow may never come so I just live for today and enjoy every minute of it.
Ray

[dominosarah]

Recovery is a life changing process for those who are committed.  As the saying goes nothing changes if nothing changes........Fear is another thing that can keep us down.  When we are truely ready to stop the insanity we take baby steps and each door that opens is a new discovery.......

ibizan......i have that book and it sits next to my night stand!!!

[SensibleInSarnia]

Well, excepting the remark (paraphrased) What's scientific research ever done for alcohol dependence?, I'm relieved to see posts which show alternative approaches.

I merely wished to stimulate debate, and I appear to have succeeded. The references weren't a display of pedantry; I was challenged to back up my initial statement, which was in no way inflammatory or insulting.

AA works for some, but its efficacy is nowhere near any claims made by its advocates. This doesn't mean it won't work for the reader -- just remember that it is a rigid ideology with roots planted deep in Judeo-Christian mythology, and act accordingly.

Best of luck with your efforts.

[SensibleInSarnia]

For what it's worth ...

Editorial Reviews
From Library Journal

Bufe ( The Heretic's Handbook of Quotations , See Sharp Pr., 1988) scrutinizes Alcoholics Anonymous, delving into the organization's origins and development. Tracing its roots to the Oxford Group movement, which was a revival of the Church of England begun in 1833, he demonstrates how major tenets of AA are derived from Oxford Group principles. He includes colorful details concerning organization founders. In critiquing the 12 steps, which are the heart of the AA recovery program, he leans heavily on the work of psychologist Albert Ellis. Bufe considers the AA religio-spiritual emphasis anathema. He also objects to AA's espousal of individual culpability for alcoholism, which does not acknowledge socioeconomic influences. His conclusion is that AA is a quasi-cult, devoid of harmful excesses but demanding strict adherence from its membership. Despite his purported objectivity, his secular bias is very much in evidence. The appendix includes descriptions of secular-based alcoholic recovery programs, and also a secular version of the 12 steps.
- Carol R. Glatt, VA Medical Ctr. Lib., Philadelphia
Copyright 1991 Reed Business Information, Inc. --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.

Review
Charles Bufe tried AA in 1983, hated it, and kept drinking until 1985, when he achieved sobriety on his own. Clearly, Bufe has something of an ax to grind, but for the most part he grinds it fairly. (At worst, the author's skepticism is no more extreme than the zeal of some AA supporters.) Bufe poses two major questions - Is AA religious? Is it a cult? - and raises some interesting points along the way. He traces the program's religious overtones to the Oxford Group Movement of the 1930s. This movement, he argues, heavily influenced AA founder Bill Wilson. Bufe supports his thesis with detailed, if not always fascinating, quotes and parallels. He concludes that AA is religious, a label sure to rile members who consider their program a secular one. His other conclusion - that AA isn't a cult - is only common sense: AA has no leader, makes no financial demands, and does not use highpressure tactics. Bufe raises a timely point regarding the seemingly endless spin-off groups that have adopted AA's 12 steps as their own. How do victims, such as members of Incest Survivors Anonymous, profit from steps designed for the addicted? Appendices include secular alternatives to AA and the 12 Steps. -- From Independent Publisher --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.

[rod44]

I bow to your superior intellect, I certainly enjoyed watching you play with words and maybe some day I may even know what you were saying,  right now I am happy in the knowledge that I am sober, happy and fulfilled in my life, the loneliness, the resentment, the desire to self-destruct, the awful pain of craving that every addict suffers and the insanity are all gone out of my life

I could not understand the concept of god when I was younger, I still don’t, I have my own views on religion, I have seen many die due to bigotry and ignorance in my own country so I keep things simple for me the no 122a bus is my god, I idolise the bus, the driver the passengers, it is however a little expensive but I manage, this is my life line, it takes me from my home to my meetings should I chose to go to a meeting and drops me home again, if this is Judeo-Christian mythology then I am for ever grateful.
Otherwise I just get on with life, have a smile as I am now and offer my support to those who want it with no preconditions.
Ray

[ibizan]

I agree with many of ur points....however again we take what we can use and leave the rest....that includes some of the personalities in the rooms...but those personalities were testing grounds for the difficult ppl in my real life/working world!I live in a rural area..and i drove quite a few hours for the alternatives....many of us have to make the best of whats available and others find their own paths!i try to teach my folks to do the same.....one needs a sober support system to remain alcohol/drug free.....and wherever u may find it is good!:)U cite many references i have read....and agree with!but again like rod and sarah ....we WANTED recovery and went to any length to acheive it...and will continue to do so!

[SensibleInSarnia]

You seem the least defensive about all this -- I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from AA; I'm just a little tired of it being touted as the one, true road by some. I've been to numerous meetings, by the way, but found myself walking out when the lord's prayer was dutifully recited at the conclusion -- this is hypocritical, when attendees are assured that some Higher Power -- of your choice (think of the ad absurdum entities one could pick), but not "god," nosiree, it's up to you ... well, their are other religions and other processes that are effective to some degree -- addiction's a hard nut to crack, as you know -- and where's the inclusiveness there?

I've also heard the "intellectualizing / rationalizing" argument, which apparently means sacrificing one's individuality to this Higher Power and admitting helplessness and "character defects." Well, I argued that intellectualization was by no means a bad thing, unless warped by active addiction or mental illness, and that "character defects," and by extension, "The Disease Concept" were empirically unprovable. I wasn't a popular visitor by this point. Too much "intellectualizing" instead of obeisance to the strictures of this organization.

Again, I do not say, "Don't go there." I say do what you can to get out of the mess you're in, but remember that there are alternatives if AA fails you.

Why this has caused such an outpouring of indignance, sarcasm, and personal insults is perhaps a sign of the inherent religiosity of AA, and those who attack me.

If I sound like some pedantic noise-maker, it's only because I've been set upon for moderately expressing a point of view to which I've given much thought.

[ibizan]

many years ago when i was very active in AA..i incurred the wrath of several old timers by saying i was an alcoholic/addict!they tried to rip me good don't u dare talk about drugs here this is for alcholics only... they did not suceed...only moved me more to go seek out NA and other alternatives....they forget Dr.Bob spoke of the nightmare of being dually addicted to speed and downers!i had 12 years of hardcore Roman Catholicism in the 60's and 70's.....which i mentally divorced myself from..and when i entered those rooms it was the first time i was given to believe in a power as i chose ....or not.i disregarded the dogmatic rigid AA'ers and NA'ers and sought the company of the eclectic free thinkers in those rooms...and there were many!

[rod44]

Sorry if I have caused you offence in any way…..
but to me you come across as arrogant and pompous, there are people here of varying degrees of education and intelligence, some who can follow your arguments and other simple people like me who can not. The impression I got and still get is of one full of there own importance. The bottom line is I am sober today because of AA and the wonderful people I met in the fellowship, if I was not sober I don’t think I would be here defending it

I have said this before and I will say it again people are free to choose, I give my experience of getting sober witch includes my experience with AA, what people choose after that is up to them.
I recognise when I am out of order and apologise, alcoholism and the devastating consequences of it is some thing I live with every day. The twelve steps have helped me to recognise that and have helped me get to a place of understanding my illness, of my self and life without drink, I tried many ways to get sober including suicide (I did not have the courage to follow through) medications, CBT, counselling and self help groups none of witch worked for me, AA however did. I will defend people who helped me get sober in an organisation that helped me get sober.
The “war storeys” that you refer to are peoples life’s, the suffering they and there families endured.
If you have issues with AA so be it, I respect your views but you must also respect my views. I have a higher power so to speak, in fact I have many, when you have a disability and you are dependent on public transport, you have bus drivers and passengers who are courteous then why not. My higher power changes from week to week but there is one person who was dear to me who is looking after me now.
You have yet to suggest an alternative way, I say this not to insult you but to try and get some positive feed back from you. Please please in words that I can understand.
Ray

[SensibleInSarnia]

Speaking as a recovered Roman Catholic, I congratulate you ... the bloody nonsense children are indoctrinated with -- Fear, Guilt, Innate Inferiority -- disgusts me.

Congratulations -- you're a survivor of quite a few insidious, vile vices, and you think for yourself.

[SensibleInSarnia]

Ray: Okay: I have written quite a few academic papers, and it has influenced how I express myself in print.

I'm not knocking you, or your peace of mind you founf through AA. But you're not one of the fanatics who would stone me to death for suggesting it isn't for everybody, and that trying to find success / relapse rates in AA is pretty difficult.

I wasn't impressed, but do not presume to advise others who seek escape from addiction. I'm glad you find solace and comfort there ... my point was that if AA is touted as the "only way," then the suffering will continue for those who just don't "fit."

I wish you well and hope the fuss is over -- it's everyone's choice, and sometimes it's a challenge finding that "fit."

[rod44]

I have met those people not just in AA but as one who spent the first few years of school under the guidance of a religious order whose idea of discipline was a cane. Little good it did me!!
They are in every walk of life unfortunately. So no I am not a fanatical stone you to death kinda guy.

AA is not the only way and I would advise any one to go with an open mind. It is about getting sober NOT about AA. It worked for me, it may not work for others.
I take what I need and leave the rest behind, I express my views at group conscience and they can listen or not, I am a member of a group that is mainly made up of younger people not afraid to express there views. I grew up with the hell and damnation c**p in the one hand and a loving god on the other and don’t need it any more.

Thanks, yes the fuss is over, storm in a tea cup.

[SensibleInSarnia]

Oh -- On CBT: If you can find a therapist versed in this promising field, add it to your list of aids -- combined with whatever you're doing.

While Burns's "Feeling Good" was the only source for so long, it seemed, have a look at "Mind Over Mood," Greensberger and Padesky, 1996, endorsed by Aaron T. Beck himself.

It's about $25, but you might find it at a library. Fascinating new field, and quite promising for those addicted / dependent on substances, as well as for depression, often the root cause, along with -- let's be honest -- pathetic coping skills and instant gratification, of folks who've been where we've been.

If you order it, it's published by THE GUILFORD PRESS, New York, London

[SensibleInSarnia]

Wow. Guess you weren't expecting a monstrous debate over your initial question ...

If AA isn't your cup of tea, there are medical detoxes where you're monitored closely, and the withdrawal is handled humanely. You have to be more or less "imprisoned" because you're out of control.

They'll let you out for a smoke, you'll meet some interesting people, and you won't have access to alcohol.

Go.

[rod44]

My experience with CBT was one of going because of pressure from family.
I feel if I was in a good place wanting to get sober it would have been fantastic.
I have returned to it and it is helping me to live in the now not the regrets of the past.
I have some negative stuff going on in my head but I am slowly learning these are just thoughts witch are racing around in there….
A thought is just that, a thought, it is not fact.  

[ibizan]

in 1983 when i was going the rounds of many AA meetings i heard a lead from a man sober 30 years.In regards to the higher power concept he said my concept of this is always changeing and that is good for that means i will not allow myself to get stagnant in my recovery!i was very comforted/validated in that statement.

[dominosarah]

The reason i am clean and sober today is becuz of me.  I live in the real world with my addictions.  I have to keep my guard up and live in the now.  Usually the stats are stacked against us when dealing with addictions and are not always very encouraging.  Today i am alive and clean and for that i am grateful......sara

[rod44]

Unfortunately no matter what road to recovery you choose it will ultimately end in failure on less you truly want to stop.

Doing this because for any other reason other than the fact that it is destroying you is not going to work. You need to look deep within and be prepared to make some hard decisions about your life as it is now, it is never going to be the same again. For me it is such a joy not to have the mental anguish I had to endure, the fear that was all consuming, the madness, the paranoia.
I some times forget how bad it was and think to my self…ok I could maybe just have say 4 drinks on a Friday night….I did this in the past in one of my failed attempts to stop….within a short period I was back to the old ways.
This is why today I go to AA, to remind myself that I am just that one drink away from insanity.
After 3 months in a secure mental health unit, 28 days in rehab where I was on the one hand a voluntary patent but because it was secure I could not leave without permission I drank. I lasted over a year but the old voice in the head said come on you will be ok.
This despite the fact that I knew what the pain I would suffer would be like, the fact that I spent many nights in prison cells or sleeping where I collapsed in a drunken stupor, waking up in my own filth. This was my reality, is my reality and the reason I will go to any lengths to stay sober.  

Ray

[SensibleInSarnia]

Certainly if you don't truly want out, you're wasting yours'  and others' time. Sadly, many have ended up on the outskirts of society because of addiction.

I disagree with the notion that one has to "hit bottom" before they can begin to recover, because "bottom" has so many subjective connotations. Your job? Your home? Your family? All of the above?

"Bottom," to me, is the recognition that you no longer can control your behavior with respect to destructive substances. It may take some people longer than others to realize that they are no longer in charge of their lives. This is not because they are "weaker" than those that see it coming -- reprimands at work, loss of affection with loved ones, isolation from others who don't share your dependence, and other extremely negative self-thinking ... so many factors come into play: parenting, trauma unaddressed appropriately, economic / employment status, e.g., how many of the employed feel they're under-employed? Frustrating, isn't it?

My view is that all of the above, combined with woeful coping skills (I can't emphasize this enough) leave us unfulfilled -- witness the daily onslaught of celebrity television, with seemingly talentless opportunists making ****loads of money while we sit in our chairs, consumed by envy. I avoid television as best I can -- it's annoying. But get hammered and it's something to stare at all day, mindlessly flipping to one unreal situation to another, absorbing meaningless garbage.

Ah. But the "co-morbidity" factor -- clinical depression exacerbated by attempts to relieve it by taking euphoriants and numbing mind and, if you're so inclined, soul is circular. The pharmacopeia developed by BigPharma for "treatment" of depessive disorders rarely supass the placebo trials, and the neurotransmitter hypothesis which, though still unproven in almost 60 years, feeds the beast -- low serotonin, noradrenaline, dopamine = MAOI's, tricyclics, SSRI's, SSNRI's, approved after 8-12 weeks of testing that wouldn't get you a passing grade in Grade 12 Biology, and we obey, seduced by the happy couple in the adverts (never mind they're both impotent from their Effexor or Cymbalta ...).

Talk therapy, whether it be CBT, Rational Emotive Therapy (Ellis), Coffee shop convergences, Rational Recovery, AA, NA  ...  who can rationally argue that one of these beats taking a pill, enduring the side-effects, and sitting looking out the window, waiting for happiness to kick in?

End of rant.

[Tink70]

Jeez Louise!  It was almost painful reading all that Bull Hokey!  SensibleinS: Oh, shut up!  Nobody likes a fake "know it all".  You seem more interested in typing big, fancy words and impressing everyone with yer "book smarts"! You didn't "just want to start a debate!".  You were lookin' for a fight and ya' got one.  AAer's that work the program are diehard fans.  People who don't fit,  don't like AA and usually bash it and generally are  always tryin' to find some "intellectual" link or non-link or crack in the wall or whatever about AA....And PULEASE don't cite anymore books!  I felt like I was in a card cataloge!
I think that this forum entry got way off track!  It was supposed to be about Helpless123.
SO: Helpless: Do you WANT to stop the drugs and alcohol?  (By the way Help - I'm OCD so I'm tracking with ya' on that stuff!)  Then stop saying you can't or that it don't work or that you can't leave your 9 year old!  (Honey - the 9 year old will be happy as all get out to have you get better cause I can guarantee you that you are NOT an effective parent right now with being an alcoholic and having OCD that appears to be uneffectively treated! - If you lay in bed all day then you ain't an effective parent!) Don't get all upset over that comment - I speak from experience.  Anyhoo - Do the work and get off the booze and get your meds right for the OCD.  Is it hard?  You bet your bottom, it is.  I got empathy for ya' but not sympathy.
Take Care
Tink

[ibizan]

oh how u make me laugh!i hope helpless read our comments about WANTING recovery and finding what works for us with no xcuses and BS......all of us have so much in common but found what worked for us!rod sara myself and YOU went to great lengths!very well worth it!

[sograteful828]

wow, i just got done reading this post and am filled with emotion. as a newcomer here, and a newcomer to sobriety as well (39 days) i would be horrified and confused if i received some of these responses while down in the trenches of my addiciton. i am not here to promote controversy, i am here to be positive and hopefully help someone suffering. i am so blessed i got the information i did in my time of need, i have to be honest with SOME of you, had i had read some of this i would have run the other direction, i hope and pray that HELPLESS is out there and is finding some solid answers and help.

my theory, take it ir leave it, as many have said above without any big words or quotes, just plain ole life experience is you have to be ready to want the help. if you are not ready no program, hospital, etc. will help you.  all of these programs are there for support, you have to do the footwork. And i pray you are finding the strength to be ready. it is a much easier road. What i go through every day is this, when i work my program of choice, it works for me, when i start losing my connection, i start losing my program, its pretty common sense. that just means i have to work HARDER if i want to stay sober,. And guess what, on those bad days i have more support than ever in my life, because they know how bad i want it.

as far as the religious aspect of  some orgs, no one has EVER forced me to pray or say a certain prayer, but lets say you just stand there and hold hands with a group of people who all have the same thing in common...without saying the prayer, i don;t see that as a bad enough situation to warrant not going back. The fact that someone WOULD WANT to hold my hand, after all the pain and bull***t i have caused is a miracle in itself, and i will welcome it.

I am not here to argue, God knows i dont have the time nor the patience as of yet, but i am scared for Helpless, and i felt after reading this maybe somepne needed to reach out.

[sograteful828]

i am sorry about the last sentence, i meant see how Helpless is doing as of now, not incinuiationg no one has reached out....thats what happens when i write during diaper changes....LOL...i appologize, you have all reached out and i will proof my posts next time...that sounded bad to me  :)

[dominosarah]

I too hope Helpless will be back and is doing well right now.  You are so right in what you have said.  Our recovery is what is important and whatever path we decide to take is what is important. What works for one may not work for another but the bottom line is staying sober.  I too remember the holding of the hands during prayer in the beginning....I never uttered a word during them but just the thought of someone taking my hand was so incredibly big.  Enjoy your day,even the diaper changes!!!      sara