when is his liver going to give up?

Hello all. My husband - the 44 year old alcoholic who won't acknowledge it - with acloholic liver disease, cirrosis (cirrhosis), swelling, jaundice and a weird smell on him even though he showers because he itches like crazy. Looks awful, very pasty coloured, papery skin on legs, bruising, freezing cold all the time. It's a beautiful day here in south Wales (UK) and there he is in several layers, a great big fleecy jacket and wooly GLOVES!!! I'm in a sun-dress.
He has hepatic encepholepathy (I always spell it wrong, sorry), and won't take his medication properly. He is also back drinking Guinness. He was out of hospital for a day and he's back on it. He is staying with his mother tonight and I've just spoken to him on the phone and he is very negative, was rambling has obviously drank today and was slurring terribly. I was told another drink could kill him. That was 2 weeks ago. He's been drinking up to 5 pints of Guinness a day for over a week. I'm at the end of my rope and don't know what to do. Any advice and although I know it's hard to give a time scale but does anyone have similar stories of relatives/friends and how long did they last? Love nana xxx

[FriaryGrad]

If he won't acknowledge it, then he won't stop drinking, but that doesn't mean you can't get help for yourself. Can you find an Al-Anon meeting in your area, and begin going? If nothing else it might get his attention.  It's not possible to answer the question about when his liver will give up, except that eventually, and inevitably, it will.  Remember this about his drinking:  You didn't cause it, you can't control it, and you can't cure it.  You are at the limit of what you can do, except stop being an enabler, and Al-Anon can help with that.  Take care of yourself, please, and stay in touch...

[nanabandm]

Thanks for that. Yes, I know I have to go to the meetings. There is one I found out about on the weekend nearer to me than the one I originally thought I'd go to. I'm going this Friday. I feel though, by not physically stopping him from drinking, I am enabling him. I found him in a pub the other day with a pint in front of him. The bar was packed and it is quite a respectable place and I didn't want to make a scene. I asked him to come home with me which he did, but only after sinking his pint in two or three gulps. I don't drink and stopped socialising in pubs with him ages ago as it would upset me so much to see him drinking. But I feel I'm turning a blind eye by physically not stopping him. It's so hard to know what I should do. He's not abusive or violent but can get a bit awkward if he's challenged about his behaviour. I'm walking on eggshells and don't feel I'm doing enough.
Hopefully I can express this in the meeting and get some mental support for myself so I can help him in more practical ways in the run up to his inevitable demise. No idea where he is at this moment. In a pub I expect. nana x

[FriaryGrad]

Hi -- I am Nana to two beautiful grandchildren.  When it comes to your husband's drinking you MUST accept that you didn't cause it, you can't control it, and you can't cure it. YOU CAN'T DO ANY OF THESE THINGS. Go a little early to the Al-Anon meeting, or plan to stay a little afterwards, and do some real talking with other friends and family members of alcoholics.  Since I AM the alcoholic in my family, I don't have any experience with Al-Anon, but I do know that you can trust them to totally maintain your confidentiality no matter what you discuss, and give you the benefit of their experiences.  I personally couldn't have been physically forced to stop drinking and I'm tiny (and not at all young). My partner is a foot taller and l50 pounds heavier, and he COULD NOT have physically stopped me from drinking.  That's how we know that alcoholics don't drink because they lack willpower....you should see the willpower we have to get alcohol. So please don't squander your precious energy, physical, mental, and emotional. You're going to need it to take care of YOU...the only person you can really take care of, after all.  If your worrying helped him to stop drinking, he wouldn't still be drinking, right??  I mean I'm sure you done more than your share of worrying, planning, scheming, crying, and he still drinks.  So I think you've kind of tested out that route, and need to try something totally different. Pray for strength and take care of yourself.  Perhaps he'll see a new you and WANT to quit.  And by the way, and I don't mean to joke, but OF COURSE he finished his pint.  I'd have gone with my partner if he asked me, but I would NOT walk off and leave my wine. Actually, I couldn't walk off and leave it.   I'll be praying for both of you.  Please stay in touch.

[nanabandm]

You talk such good sense and I really appreciate it. I have changed my tactics over the last two days and I'm not 'watching' him. Today he's organising a walk with a few friends and he's been threatening to do this for about 18 months but ends up in the pub instead. So that was a good sign. I was very encouraging but left him to organise it himself without any help from yours truly. I'm staying at my daughter's tonight and looking after my lush grandson tomorrow so he's on his own. He moaned a bit (cos he's a big baby) but I said tough. I felt empowered.
I'm going to the meeting Friday and I am looking forward to it. I'll let everyone know how it goes.
Thanks so much ..... nana x

[walternowotny]

To answer your question...his liver is giving up.He has cirrhosis,his bile salts are high(itching),he has high bilirubin(jaundice),portal hypertension(edema),his coagulation doesn't work(bruising),he has"foetor hepaticus"(weird smell),encephalopathy.....this is most likely terminal liver failure.
He probably has varices in his oesophagus.His immune system is down and he is very susceptible to infections.
People in terminal liver failure usualy die of two complications(unless they die because of aspiration,injury or suicide):
1.infection(usually Gram negatives)
2.Bleeding
I am very sorry.....My mother died year ago because of G- sepsis that complicated her terminal liver failure.
Walter

[nanabandm]

Thanks Walter. You've more or less confirmed what I thought. I've decided to accept the situation as there's nothing I can do about it. Some days he doesn't drink but others he has a few pints of guinness. I've come to the conclusion that we don't have long together so I want to make those days/weeks/months(?) as happy (strange term for something which is breaking my heart, but I'm sure you know what I mean), as possible. I don't want to remember our last times together as being miserable and rowing over everything.
Some days he's fine. He isn't scruffy or anything, he keeps himself clean and shaven and often looks quite well but then all of a sudden he looks and sounds dreadful and it hits home that he is terminally ill. His encephalopathy today isn't too bad either but tomorrow could be very different I know. He does have varices - he found that out about 8 weeks ago. He also has piles and varices in his rectum. He bleeds from there regularly. I'm keeping an eye on him as much as I can but I've stopped looking at him like he's 'dead man walking'.
I am so very sorry about your mother. My dad passed away in March from emphysemia and pneumoconiosis (I'm writing from Wales in the UK and dad worked in the coal mining industry when he was young - it's a very common disease in this part of the world and very, very distressing).
Many thanks Walter. Take care - nana x

[FriaryGrad]

I think you're doing wonderfully; I wanted to check on you all day today, but got swamped at work and this is the first chance I've had to see how you're doing.  He's going to notice you not watching and backing off from trying to reform him, and that might actually make him more receptive to stopping or getting help.  Keep it up and please let me know how your meeting goes on Friday.  Maybe you could see if AA has a meeting at the same time, and then after a while you could ask if he wants to sit in on an AA meeting while you're at Al Anon.  Or if there is an open meeting (which allows non-alcoholics to attend) you could go together, after a while.  You're in my prayers......

[jml1986]

I wish I were as simple as giving you a timeline as to how long he will live this way, but I can tell you that my uncle who I buried on April 13th lived for 15 years with cirrhosis. He had all the same symptoms as your husband, but he continued to live despite the doctors telli ng him he would die at anytime. Sadly his end was not an easy death and I feel sad for you that you too must watch your husband die this way. I wish you all the best.

[nanabandm]

Hi Fri - yes I'll let you know how it goes. He'd have to be chloroformed and hog tied for me to get him to go to any sort of meeting! He didn't drink yesterday and was fine for a while today then had a tantrum and threw his cell phone into a bush. Where it stayed. I certainly wasn't going to retrieve it. He's now without his phone so too bad. We had visited an agricultural show with my daughter, my mum and my grandson. We all ignored his childish outburst and then he fell asleep in the car all the way home. My grandson behaved better than he did. We came home and he is now out somewhere and my guess is he's going to have a few pints. Ah well. Happy days ................. Be back in touch soon. nana xxx

[FriaryGrad]

Quick, change the locks........Just kidding....  :>)  I'm so sorry for your bad experience, but please remember to look after yourself, and let him look after himself.  I can tell you from sad experience, when I was drinking, that he may have been experiencing either physical withdrawal or horrible cravings.  It's not an excuse, and you handled it perfectly, so just keep up the good work and share this with the Al-Anon folks. If possible, get your daughter to go to Al-Anon, too, so she'll be better equipped to deal with her dad.  Will he worry that you're talking about him in Al-Anon?  That might get him to a meeting when nothing else would......  Take care.......

[nanabandm]

I went to bed and he came home about 11pm. I didn't bother getting up and he slept in the other room. He was a bit sheepish this morning but I ignored it all and made my cup of tea and went back to bed for an hour. Only problem is he has hidden a spare car key and he's taken the car. He was banned from driving 3 years ago and hasn't had his licence back. Plus he's on the diazepan and should not be driving. He should have been back here an hour ago so either he will turn up in one piece or the police will call. I think it would be a good idea if he was caught. I should report it but I don't have the courage. What a wuss I am. I know it's the right thing to do, so why don't I just do it?
As for the Al Anon thing, it would cause all sorts of rows if I told him I was going. He doesn't know I'm going to go as he would NOT like the fact I'll be talking about him. He'd see it as a betrayal. And at the moment because he's got that encephalopathy, it's hard to communicate with him over what he wants for his dinner, let alone something like Al-Anon. I'll be back in touch later. It's so good to talk. You take care too - I feel very selfish as I've never asked how you are doing. Sorry. nana x

[walternowotny]

It is just very bad....he shouldn't be on benzodiazepines(they potentiate effect of alcohol and they are also metabolized in the liver).Most alcoholics take them for withdrawals.But after some time "benzos" aren't effective anyway.....they are just making things worse.
You should call his doctor and ask them not to refill his prescription.Plus if he drinks and takes valium on the top of it he is a big threat to other people when he drives.....
Good luck
Walter

[FriaryGrad]

I understand now; you need to go for support for yourself without causing any more stress. I don't know enough about cars to suggest a part you could remove without causing more hassle for yourself than it is worth.  I've been in AA meetings where there was debate about calling the police on a person you know is drinking and driving. I'm glad it never happened to me.  In all my years of drinking, I never got a DUI or into an accident of any kind, but that is God and sheer dumb luck. Now I am the designed driver. I hope you went to Al-Anon today and that you'll write about it soon. Remember you and your family, including your husband, are in my prayers.  

[BANDIDA]

Take the plugs out of his distributor cap (looks sort of like a helmet w/plugs underneath) there are several and if he is already a bit toasted it will be very difficult 4 him..to re-connect then I think it needs to be re-timed so maybe if U get a flashlight it might wk. So sorry that things R the way they are 4 U nana..I can tell U R trying so hard...my brother was I believe at the same point ur husband is he got very bad having to have his stomach drained 3 or so times a week and it seemed like he hated everyone. We stilll don't speak to this day..Why I really do not know? Except 4 the fact that both of us took the death of our mother very hard...myself especially! I did not grieve properly and drowned my sorrows in the alcohol..I realize that now! But it took me 4 yrs. and a LOT of ongoing trouble. But I am stronger now and very aware of my triggers(her death anniversary and her B'day) Is there or could there B something that is making you hubby want to numb himself so as not to feel pain? I would love to chat W/U been watching all the posts and just sitting back! Only bcuz my crisis is sort of over...at least I am not in pain physically any longer. Please both of U respond..maybe we can work thru this OK lots of LOVE and encouragement am standing by and on your side xxxooo Terry

[nanabandm]

Been off connection for a few days but just to let you know he is still drinking and it's getting more every day now. I'm just taking each day as it comes and I make sure he can't get the car anymore. What a mess.
I'm working a lot this week so I haven't got chance to put everything down but I will soon as there's been lots happening. I really feel as if i have friends so thank you all so much for that. I've my own issues too which I'm getting help for but fortunately for me I've not ever wanted to drink. I always feel like Sh** the day after and throw up a lot. No tolerance at all. I don't bother at all now althoug I'm certainly not evangelical about it.
Anyway, off to work again. He's asleep and will be for a while. Love you all ......... Jill (nana)

[BANDIDA]

Stay strong!!! We R all here for you! I send my prayers and good thought UR way..Terry

[nanabandm]

Well it's getting worse. Don't have a clue how much he's drinking but he is now noticeably 'tight' which I've not seen him like before. Slurring more and getting confused and seeing things again. I was going to book us a week away in the sun but I don't know if it would be a good idea. Part of me thinks it would be nice to get away with him on what will probably be our last holiday together but I'm worried he'll collapse or something while we are away. Spain is not far away for us (a 2 hour flight). He'll drink, but he drinks anyway so what's the difference. I just think we could get away before he gets any worse. Or am I being daft? Be grateful for some thoughts on this . . . jill xx

[Pickles4Me]

Hi Jill.  First, I'm heartbroken for you and all the others in the world in your position.  It's terribly painful watching anyone you love die, regardless of what they're dying from.

Like you, I'm not an alcoholic but was married to one for many years.  He got sober and THEN we divorced because his recovery was so awful.  However, if I had still loved him and he had ended up in your husband's condition, I would definitely have taken him away for a holiday.  Enjoy and love him while you can.  

[Grace724]

My husband has had episodes of encephalopathy from his drinking and it sounds to me like that is one of the things going on with  your husband. Seeing things and the confusion are symptoms of that. I can't remember if you said your husband had been hospitalized with encephalopathy or not.

Anyway, personally there is no way in the world I would go away with my husband if he was drinking and having issues such as confusion and seeing things that are not there. I can understand your need to get away and try to enjoy some time with him before it's too late, but I'd hate to think of what predicament you'd be in if he ended up hospitalized in another country. Not only that but in the condition he is in now do you really think either of you would enjoy the time away?

Is your husband getting any kind of follow up or treatment with a doctor or is he one of those that refuse to get help? Sorry I can't remember. If he is seeing a doctor on a regular bases call the doctor and ask what to do for him and the confusion, etc. he is having. I know my husband takes Lactulose daily.

Best to you,

~Grace

[nanabandm]

What would I do without you all to 'talk' to I don't know. I agree in a way with Pickles (love the name btw - one of my beloved cats is called Archie-Pickles), about enjoying him while I can, because that was my first thought, but after today I'm now inclined to take Grace's advice.
I've been on an outing today to a primate sanctuary with my daughter and little grandson. It was such a lovely day and I was really chilled out. Primates do that to you. The eye contact is all I need. Anyway, I spoke to Byron a few times during the day but when I picked him up from - yes, you've guessed it - the pub, with a pint of guinness in front of him, he'd obviously spent the day quaffing.
He was in a bit of a sombre mood and said he'd had a conversation with an acquaintance who heard he'd been in hospital and gave him some story about how they'd all heard he was given 48 hours at most (true), and that I was very upset and so were the girls (my daughters from my first marriage), and that we were all worried sick. All this is true but because he is in complete denial of the seriousness of his condition he started blaming me for telling people he'd been in hospital (he was in at the end of June so all this has been spoken about weeks ago). there was no reasoning with him at all and because he hasn't been taking his medication properly he's obviously deteriorating.
His liver decompensated Grace, and he had the encephalopathy and yes, he's one of these people who has refused help even though he pulled through after me being told that he would most probably not live. But he doesn't accept it at all and thinks (or so he says) that it's all a load of bol****. Personally, I think he knows deep down but is too scared to admit it. Every night I think he's not going to wake up and when he goes out in the morning because he won't stay in the house I think I'll get a phone call from the police or something. I am going to make an appointment to see the doctor next week to have some idea of what I should do. I'm definitely not taking him away now. He started getting quite belligerent and it's only because I didn't react that there wasn't a major scene. I managed to persuade him to come home and he's gone straight to bed in a sulk and that's the best place for him. I hope he stays there all night. But he wouldn't eat anything and hasn't all day or taken any of his meds. I'll keep an eye on him tonight in case he's ill. Chances are he will be. Thanks for listening my friends. I value all this so much and my best wishes and loving thoughts are all with you for whatever is going on in your lives. Jill xxx

[Pickles4Me]

Hi Jill.  If your husband is deteriorating that rapidly, maybe you shouldn't go too far.  You could, however, spend some quality time by going on local trips, maybe a picnic?

Are you familar with a U.S. tv show called Intervention?  It's very popular and has been on for several years.  Some of the addicts are alcoholics, some are drug users. Some are permanently recovered, some recorer and relapse, but there's only one case where the addict has died.  I don't make it a practice of telling people how shows end but I think you should be prepared and watch it.  Below is a link to youtube.   You'll have to watch it in 5 sections, but there's no commercials.  It might give you some idea of what to expect.  

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=intervention+lawrence&search_type=&aq=f

Please keep us posted and know we're with you in spirit and love.

[nanabandm]

Thanks Pickles. I've decided not to go abroad even though Spain is only a 2 hour flight. He was a bit grumpy this morning and bathed the dogs at 5am (!!!!!) - but cheered up a bit and we went swimming. I spent a big part of the day with him but then had to go to work. He's had a fair few to drink and has started getting the pain in his back and legs again which was the start of his deterioration last time.
I l in the UK and we don't have the programme (we spell it different to you in the USA!) you mention but I will look on youtube and get back to you with my thoughts.
Take care Pickles - lots of love xx

[nanabandm]

What does GAVE stand for? I was looking on his report from the hospital which he had back in April when he had to go in for an endoscopy (before he went in this last time). I found it in his stuff and it says :

ASA grade III systemic disease  : Findings Abnormal oesophagus ; barely noticeable oseophageal varices ; abnormal stomach ; Findings Mild GAVE ; normal duodenum

Comments : "He has 2 grade II varices (along with tongues of gastric mucosa) as well as both a mild portal gastropathy and GAVE. It might be worth surveillance endoscopy and/or Propranolol but we'll discuss this in clinic."

Well he didn't get to go to follow up clinic because he put off two appointments then went back into hospital - the episode I wrote about when I first joined this forum.
I was told today by someone who sees him in the pub every day that he's drinking in excess of 10 pints of guinness now. He's not taking his meds still. I gave him some last night but he hadn't taken the ones he should have during the day. The vitamins and the propranolol, lactulose and thiamine and spironolactone. He is also being very belligerent apparently with some of the lads and they are rapidly losing patience with him as he can be quite sarcastic.
His next appointment is not until September 9th and I know he'll make some excuse not to go.
I'm feeling terrible today. So depressed about it and I'm hiding myself away from my family because I'm so ashamed. Telling them all sorts of fibs not to see them and when I do I'm putting on this act that I'm OK. But I'm not. I've got angina myself and I'm on antidepressants since my darling nephew committed suicide. I nursed my dad in law through the last stages of bowel cancer and was with him when he died in the most horrible way. My own dad died in March and I was with him too and I'm just so scared of what's in front of me but in some ways which it would happen because watching my husband drink himself to death is breaking me up. I've cried so much today behind closed doors and the thought of going out is giving me the willies. Sorry I'm such a miseryguts today but I just had to get all this out of my system before he comes home and I've got to put my 'smile' on and pretend that he's not an alcoholic, dying slowly inside, right in front of my eyes. I'm going to have a cup of tea. Love you all  ... Jill xxx

[Grace724]

Oh Nana, my heart goes out to you. I wish I had some good advice, but I really don't. Just lots of empathy and good thoughts going your way.

I have no idea what GAVE stands for, possibly give his doctor a call and ask. Also let them know what he is doing and see if they have any advice for you.

I know about the hiding from family and the feeling of shame. Logically we know that we are not responsible for the terrible choices our spouses make but for some reason we seem to take/share the blame and feel ashamed and that makes us not want to see others for fear of facing their judgment. At least that is how I felt for years before my husband got sick in February. Finally in Feb. I told my parents about all the drinking over the years etc. They were shocked and it took awhile to convince them that though he drank our bills were always paid and he went to work every day, was not a mean drinker etc. They got it in their heads that I had lived a miserable 20+ years, which was not true. I find that I still avoid them as their questions about his staying the course of not drinking etc. seem to make me feel resentful and not too kindly toward them. I also find that I do not take well to sympathy. Not at all. I really feel that I just want to be left alone and mostly I want my old life back. The where I don't live in fear of tomorrow. That would be heaven to me.

Anyway, back to you. I'm sure that watching others die in your presence doesn't make the future look too bright to you. I've been reading more and more about the trials and tribulations that the care giver of a cirrhotic person goes through and it doesn't look easy. Reading your last few sentences breaks my heart. I wish these men of ours used their intelligence when it really mattered, back when they were healthier and could've made better choices about their health. Sometimes I find myself pretty darn angry at my husband that he did the things he did that put us where we are. If you're able to put a smile on your face and pretend with him I give you a lot of credit because I have no public face. When I'm mad, you know it. When I'm sad, you know it. Can't hide a thing.

I'm sure not much of this was helpful to you. Just know there are many of us out here who know the misery you speak of.

Hang in there.

~Grace

[nanabandm]

Wow - what a fantastic message. I know what you are saying. I found out what GAVE stands for = gastric antreum venal blahbiblahdiblah - can't remember exactly now, but suffice to say it's not pleasant. Watermelon stomach it's called and there was a picture of some poor sod who had it and the stomach does look like a watermelon. Hence ....
I also had a lovely message from Pickles who gave me some good advice about the feelings of shame and along with your own good advice I now realise there is no need for me to feel shame. I can't however, accept the patronising 'sorry for you' attitude of some people I bump into. They want to know the in's and out's of a cow's backside about my husband and tell me with great gravitas of how they saw him drinking in such and such pub and what was I going to do about it. It makes me want to rip my own arm out of it's socket just so I'd have something substantial to hit them with!!!!!
You've obviously been through all this and sometimes I wish I could let my feelings show truthfully instead of putting on a face. I'm getting a little resentful that I've had to start making a 'sideline' life for myself - not with other men even though we're platonic and have been for ages - and not devoting myself completely to him and his care the way I would if he had, say, cancer. I adore him, really I do, but I can't go out with him as it turns my stomach watching him drink so we just see each other in the house. He gets up and is out of the house before 10.30am and doesn't come back home until 7pm or later. He can hardly speak this evening. Not mean or grumpy or anything but it's really annoying because I can't believe he's doing this to himself. He's very funny when he speaks though and it's like living with a stand up comedian. I laugh so much sometimes that my tea comes down my nose. But overall, it's like looking after a naughty alcoholic younger brother. I've had a pleasant day with my work colleagues who are so supportive and I'm invited to a lovely regatta on the weekend which I'm going to. He will sulk - but tough. He's not coming with me. I'm going to have a little 'me time' - Thanks Grace, you made me feel better about myself and that's worth so much - your name suits you by the way. love Jill xxx

[walternowotny]

GAVE=Gastric Antral Vascular Ectasia=dilatation of small blood vessels in pyloric antrum(part of the stomach).It can cause both severe bleeding and chronic anemia.
It is usually seen in patients with chronic disease(about 1/3 of patients have cirrhosis...but you also see it in various autoimmune diseases like scleroderma)
Walter

[nanabandm]

My decompensated liver, cirrosis (cirrhosis) laden husband is now drinking over 15 pints of guinness a day. I'm waiting for him to spontaneously combust. It's awful. Anyone with a crystal ball out there who could give me some idea of a timescale? I know I asked this before but now he's deteriorating before my eyes and won't even go to his hospital follow ups. He knows he'll be kept in. The drying out would probably kill him. I'm so mixed up I'm rambling. Working and volunteering like a complete obsessive. Can't help it though. Better than watching him driving more nails in his coffin. I'm very down today as you can tell. Sorry folks. xxxx

[Grace724]

Hard headed people...they are their own worst enemy and we are left to watch them go down in flames most of the time.

I'm so sorry that he is drinking more than ever. I wish I could tell you when this torture to himself and especially to you is going to end but there is no telling. I know that is not what you want to hear.

I think if it was me I'd wait until he passed out and call the ambulance to come and get him and take him to the hospital. That may be the only way you're going to get some definitive answers about the condition he is in at this moment and where things stand.

Have you thought about calling his doctor to ask him/her for advice? I don't know if they would have any better advice than we here have been able to give you but anything at this point is worth a try.

Keep us posted. Know that many of us are thinking of you.

~Grace

[Pickles4Me]

I’ve been traveling this past week so I’m just now seeing this.  I’m so sorry to hear this,  Nana.  I do have to wonder, however, if we may be playing a bit of God in this situation.  We, as sober, rational human beings have a desire to live, but I have to wonder if we might also be a bit presumptuous in thinking this is also Nana’s husband’s wish.  

It may be possible that the poor guy has simply had enough of his disease and would rather have everlasting peace than search for a dry peace on earth.

If we truly believe alcoholism is a disease (and I believe we all do), it strikes me that his decision to end his suffering isn’t all that different than a terminal cancer patient’s decision to end their own suffering.  Maybe we need to accept and respect his decision how ever unconventional and heart-breaking it is to us.

…Just a thought….

[nanabandm]

You know, this is something which crosses my mind on a regular basis. My nephew hung himself about 18 months ago. He was only 27. No one knows why to this day. He had a lovely son on whom he doted, and had booked his holiday just the day before. His girlfriend found him and she's been traumatised by it but is trying to move on with life for the sake of the little boy. It's crippled my sister and the family as a whole has suffered because of it. It's still very painful. He was such a lovely boy. At the time, and even now, Byron was really cross with Gareth. He hasn't been very supportive over it and has been quite cruel on times with the things he's said. But I've told him he is doing the exact same thing - only with a different method. I think he (Byron) had dreams and ambitions and while he has realised some of them, there are others he has not. The same as all of us. I've had my own share of them and I've made mistakes and I've had stuff happen to me which could have pushed me under - sexual abuse as a child by a family friend, which my parents still don't know about and which my dad died this year not knowing about, and also rape as a teenager. I also had an unhappy 1st marriage and my ex hit me and was a mental torturer until I grew a backbone, saw sense and buggered off with the kids. I've got issues which to be honest crucify me on occasion when I get flashbacks and I've not had counseling or any help at all with any of it. I don't know if this annoys him. That I can deal with these things in my own way without the need of a crutch. I don't go on about it. He can't handle me talking about it and gets cross with me and says I should have told my parents when I was little. I point out that it was between the ages of 3 and 7 and I thought it was normal. He has no patience with listening to any of this so I never bring it up even when I feel like talking about it (which isn't often - about twice a year). I feel at the moment that because he lost his driving licence - and you know how men are with driving - I've had to drive him everywhere. Plus I've been the one working and I've had more success than he has with work. I think he feels as if his 'manhood' has shrunk if you know what I mean. We aren't intimate any more (his choice) and he knows I feel neglected although I pretend not to be. Pride, I suppose. We have a loving relationship though and make each other laugh and he's such a fantastic person and I love him dearly and don't regret being with him in any way, but I think Pickles is right (I love Pickles, she is so wise and supportive), I think he's going through the motions until his body just gives up. He didn't drink much yesterday and was starting to feel ill by the evening. We walked the dogs on the beach and then called into the shop where he bought 4 cans of guinness. I didn't say anything at all and even put them in the fridge for him and poured one out too. It probably will horrify some of you that I enabled him in that way and he's already bought more for this evening. But I've tried everything and so now I just think I'll support him in his decision even though it's like tightening the noose in a manner of speaking. I'm just going to be there so he knows when he goes, he's going, with someone who loves him by his side to bring whatever comfort I can. I'd be glad for some feedback on this even if it's a telling off. Hope you are all OK out there. Lots of love - nana xxxx

[walternowotny]

I think in terminal alcoholism like any terminal disease there is a sense of inevitability,resignation....I went through that with my mother.When it was undeniable that  she was in a downward spiral her answer was"It doesn't matter anymore"or"now it is too late".
In the end she was able to stop drinking....for the last 15 months of her life.
In the end it was very important to her"not to die drunk".
And for that I am very grateful....
Walter

[boogieman]

hello. i've been on both sides. i  tried to drink enough to free me from the hell i was living and almost succeeded. i also watched my father die from his drinking, but it happened relatively fast (over a two week period in icu). the first day of his hospitalization was the last time he was able to communicate before he slipped into a morphine induced coma. at that time the serious nature of his illness was not apparent and our conversation was very brief. there's not much i wouldn't give to have 5 more minutes with him now to let him know how important he was to me. but i was there when he drew his last breath and i think he was aware of this on some level. i didn't get to say goodbye, but i was part of the last chapter of his life's story, i thank god i was there as painful as it was. i wish you and your husband the best, and i assure you that your presence is something no doctor can provide, and all the money in the world can't buy. you folks will be in my prayers, take care--gm

[nanabandm]

Thanks for the messages. Tonight his legs have started to give way again and he couldn't move them earlier on. I think his body will start to shut down soon. I'll keep posting if you don't mind because my nerves are in shreds. xx

[Pickles4Me]

I’m so sorry, nana.  Although it may be difficult, try to spend as much quality time with him that you can.  Laugh, cry, eat, talk together.  By preparing both of you for his death, you will get as much peace as him when the time comes.  

Please know you are in my prayers.

[boogieman]

just wanted to say hello and let you know you folks have been in my thoughts and prayers.

[jjaz]

You are in my thoughts and prayers. I too, have been struggling with my husbands "death wish". He is a little different in the fact that he pretends to be doing all the right things: goes to AA meetings in the morning and Celebrate Recovery meetings on Friday evenings. Its all show and I know it.
It is so difficult seeing someone you love throw everything away. He has also been in and out of the hospital - 2 visits in the last month. Has your husband talked about his pain, or about the fact that he does not want to go on? The other night my husband told me that he thought that he was dying and told me that he wanted to be cremated when he dies. It just crushed me to hear him speak like that. I'm sorry, I don't mean to go on about me, but I think that we have a lot in common. I KNOW what your going through! Maybe we can console each other, and remind each other of the other things in life that are important - ourselves and the other members of our family.

Lots of Love!

jjaz

[nanabandm]

Hi - I've been off this for a while because I was exhausted at trying to make sense of it all. Yes, Jaz, our situations have spooky things in common.
My husband doesn't acknowledge he has a problem but I KNOW he knows that he does. He's told me not to cremate him and often talks about dying but in a comical way. He has drunk about 50 pints of Guinness this weekend. Unbelievable that someone has the capacity to drink that much and not get or seem drunk. He doesn't pass that much water though and it's a funny colour. Like algae. When he poos it's like a series of small explosions and it's all black and stinks. He isn't taking his meds at all any more so is swelling up daily and starting to shake more and more. His gums are now bleeding again. The pain he is in every evening is terrible. His back. I don't think it's muscular as his legs won't work. It might be his nervous system - I don't know. I'm just going on what the doctors told me the last time he was in.
I'm watching him go downhill every day and I'm sure that soon his body will have to shut down because of what he's putting it through. ~The little bit of liver he has left must be screaming. I'm carrying on as normal but it was his birthday on the 2nd and I can't see him lasting til Christmas let alone until his next birthday. He's 45. It's obscene.
I'll be back online later. Thanks for your message. Sorry you are going through it too. God what a mess! xxxxxx

[jjaz]

As strange as this may sound, It's nice to know that I'm not alone. Of course, I would rather not be going through this - I'm sure that you wish the same.
My husband has very swollen feet, and 2 weeks ago he had to have fluid drained from his belly. They extracted almost 4 liters! He constantly complains about his feet hurting (he has a neuropathy of his feet) and, of his back hurting. Not only does he drink, but he takes pain medicine (oxycontin) for his feet. I'm sure that the oxycontin is probably not the best thing for him to be taking. He also has Hep C. The bad thing about his drinking is that he says that he has stopped drinking, but I keep finding little bottles of whiskey hidden. I know where he stashes them and I can tell when he has been replacing the bottles with new ones. I had hoped that after his last hospital stay, it would have been enough to scare him straight. Unfortunately, it did not. Right before he went into the hospital he was sleeping alot - 14 to 18 hours a day. He was okay for a day or two after he was released from the hospital, but now he sleeping alot again.

I'm sure that we can help each other get through this and stay sane in the process.

Stay sane and stay strong!

jjaz

[walternowotny]

You also need to get tested for Hep C.Does your husband have a hx of  drug abuse?
Walter

[jjaz]

I have been tested for Hep C, and fortunately I tested negative.

The Dr.'s think that he picked up the Hep C from a surgery that he had in the early 80's. Since they didn't start testing the blood supply for Hep C until the early 1990's he probably got the disease from the blood transfusion that he had during his surgery. He was not a needle user, but he did use cocaine for a period of time. So who knows......

As far as his pain killers, he has been using them for about 3 years. His feet started swelling back in 2001 and at first the Dr.'s thought it was Gout. Unfortunately, the medication that is given for Gout is not very liver friendly and he started to feel worse. That is when they did extensive blood testing and found the Hep C. His foot pain got progressively worse, and some stupid Neurologist started him on the Oxycontin. Of course, my husband never admitted that he had a drinking problem otherwise rhe Dr. probably would not have started him on it.

Once he was diagnosed, I went to work full-time so that we would have health insurance to take care of him. At one point we had him on the list for a liver transplant, but they did random drug and alcohol testing and caught him drinking. Needless to say, he was promptly removed from the list. That was last March. He went to Rehab in April, but came back and started drinking again. Sometimes it is difficult for me to tell if he has been drinking or if he is just confused. I have to go with my gut instinct which says that he has been drinking. As I posted earlier, I have found where he stashes his bottles and I know when he is replenishing them.

My apologies, I did not mean to ramble on but I thought a little history was in order. My husband, like Nana's husband, is very head strong and does what he wants no matter what the consequences. All we can do is keep the rest of the family in order and try to take care ourselves. I'm finding out every day that you cannot help someone who won't help themselves. It still doesn't make it any easier. In the end, people like Nana and myself will pick up the pieces and move on.

jjaz

[nanabandm]

Ain't it the truth!

My man has bleeding gums and nose now too and is in terrible pain in his spine. Slowing down a bit every day and I wake up wondering what the day will bring. I'm in work most of the day so on pins thinking I'll have a phone call. I can't understand and never will. xxxxx

[nanabandm]

Ain't it the truth!

My man has bleeding gums and nose now too and is in terrible pain in his spine. Slowing down a bit every day and I wake up wondering what the day will bring. I'm in work most of the day so on pins thinking I'll have a phone call. I can't understand and never will. xxxxx

[walternowotny]

He should go to hospital.His coagulation is not working(as a result of liver failure).He needs FFP(fresh frozen plasma) and other things.It can go fast from here....
Walter

[boogieman]

it's probably little consolation right now, but something good can come from your present situations. i watched my father drink himself to death and i almost succeeded in doing the same thing. although i can only speak for myself, i'm sure there are others here who feel the same way----i can't forget where i came from and i must remember that "there but for the grace of god, go i." you are both in my prayers. gm

[jjaz]

I just thought I would check in and up date everyone. Nana I hope all is well with you and your husband.  I think of you often.

I am getting very worried for my husbands health. He has lost a lot of weight. Since he had the fluid drained from his abdomen, he has gone from 215 lbs. down to 181 lbs. His legs look very atrophied and are getting very weak. He is also complaining of constipation and pain in his liver. He has had pain in his feet for several years, but he has said that over the course of the last week or so the pain has gotten a lot worse. He has an appointment with his liver doctor in about a week and a half, but I'm scared of what he might tell us.

Does anyone have any thoughts? I'm afraid that his liver has developed cancer. Any help or advise is appreciated.

jjaz

[boogieman]

hi there. so sorry to hear things aren't doing too good. only the mds can say what prognosis is. there is always hope and strength available to all of us no matter what happens. been a trying week for myself but i'm trying to stay positive. i always feel better after visiting this site. stay in touch and i'll be keeping you guys in my prayers. take care, gm

[izzyxx]

my heart goes out to you. my boyfriend died at 44 so i don't think my words will be very encouraging. his death seemed so sudden to me. he wasn't nearly as ill as your husband seems to be. he wasn't really ill at all. about a year before he died his liver enyzmes tested high .. that was when he first found out about cirrhosis. he kept a lot of what the doctor said away from me and since he seemed to feel so fine, i was able to put it in my denial spot or something. when he went back to the doctor, he told me that since he had quit drinking, (he hadn't) that the enzymes tested more positively, better for him, i mean. he then told me the doctor told him he could drink wine occasionally. the fear that i was going to lose him must've shoved me into a place where i could hear a lie, but accept it. you'd have to know my boyfriend. very stubborn and the only one who could make up his mind for him, about anything. his father had been ill, totally bedridden. after his father passed, it seemed like he just gave up. started drinking the way he always had and two months later he too died. i only found out after his death about the stern talking to he got from his doctor. basically, "quit drinking now or you're GOING to die, and it's going to come fast." that was the understatement of a lifetime. he fell one night when he was drunk, ended up in the hospital, and a week later he was gone. that's what i mean about there being no real time when he'd be so seriously ill .. the way you're writing about and just from what i'd read. i had no idea he could even BE that close to death. however, when i saw him at the hospital the first time, i knew he'd be gone in a matter of days .. and he was. i'm still feeling so destroyed, fighting the barrage of grief that grabs you like nothing else you've ever experienced. in a way i'm glad he didn't suffer much, but i miss him terribly. it's only been 18 months. i wish i could go back, maybe there was something to be done differently, altho everyone tells me there was not. i lost my best friend of over 20 years. i hope you have better luck. i know a person cannot even get on a waiting list for a liver transplant unless they've ceased alcohol consumption for at least six months. it doesn't sound good. i'm sorry.
regards,
izzy

[izzyxx]

dear jill -

i couldn't help wondering if you would lose your husband before i got to the end of the comments. honestly, i don't know what i was hoping for, for you. my heart's just breaking for you, knowing what you must be going through even though my boyfriend went quickly. i don't know if i'd have been as strong as you're being had he lingered and been very ill and in pain. as i read here, i'm happy that you've found people to talk to. when your husband does go, i think you'll find that sometimes people don't stick as close to us as we may have hoped. people will say they don't know what to say, etc. i know that it didn't matter to me if they knew what to say .. it was OK with me if they didn't say anything. being there is enough and sometimes it's more than enough or all that you want.

i don't know you, you're on a different continent and here i am tearing up as i read you go through probably the toughest thing you'll ever have to face. and you're doing it so gracefully. people told me i too should go to al-anon, but i never did. i guess because he went so quickly. i think it's bound to help you though and i hope that it does. please, if you ever need someone to talk to, i want you to know that i'm here. at any time. any day. if you ever wanted to take it to email, just let me know or we can continue chatting here.

when i read your words, i'm filled with the realisation of what this disease can really entail. you're going through so much and i feel like there was so much i wasn't told until he was gone. i remember one time he was in the hospital with an internal hemorrhoid and he'd lost a dangerous amount of blood by the time he got to the hospital, and i can't help knowing that he must've known, even then. i don't know if i could've had your strength. and as strong as you are, there will be times when you don't want to be strong and you want to lean on someone. just let yourself do that, as often as you need to. know there are people who really care, even if they've never met you. i'll keep healing thoughts close. and remember .. i'm a click away.

fondly,
izzy

[ironpetal09]

Hello to all

Just wanted to let you know I read this thread and I raged and raged at this illness.

You are all in my thoughts and prayers.  

[jjaz]

izzy -

I am so sorry to hear of your loss. I can only imagine the grief that you must be going through. Alcoholism is such a horrible disease for everyone in involved. I too have struggled, thinking that maybe there was something more that I could have done. I now realize that the lies and covering things up with stories are all part of the disease. They will hear what they want, and do what they want no matter what the cost (even if it takes their life). All I can do is take it one day at a time, and put it in God's hands.

My husband has his Dr.'s appointment in 2 days. I hope that I am not putting too much stock into the appointment, but I am hoping that the Dr. will give him the "come to meetin Jesus talk". I know that it probably won't change anything, but he needs to hear about his distructive behavior from someone other than me. I will keep everyone posted - hopefully he will tell me what the Dr. tells him.

Thanks for the love and support,

jjaz

[jjaz]

Thank you for your prayers!

jjaz

[Pickles4Me]

Even if your husband doesn't listen to his doctor, he will have the seed planted.  Sometimes it's easy to ignore a spouse but not so easy to ignore a doctor.  

Do you feel your husband will be up front about all his symptoms?  If not, you can call and leave a message for the doctor.  He won't be able to tell you anything unless your husband has signed a consent form, but he CAN LISTEN to the symptoms you've  notice.

I wish you all the best.  Please keep us updated.  We care deeply.

--Pickles

[jjaz]

Well he went to the Dr. but I don't know much more than I knew before the appointment. They want him to come back for more testing....we'll see if he makes the appointment.

On a more worrysome note, he just moved into a new office and the people are asking questions about him. They asked his secretary if he has a drinking problem, because he smells of alcohol all the time. His clients are also asking questions and starting to making complaints. I own the business, but he is the one that actually works the clientele. Because of his drinking and his health deteriorating, I don't know how long I can keep the business running. I am meeting with our accountant next week to see what options I have for the business. His secretary and the people at the office are also afraid to see him drive. He says that he has vertigo from allergies, but everyone know better. I'm afraid that he will hurt himself or worse yet kill someone while driving. Does anyone know what precautions I can take to protect myself? I don't want to be sued because of his stupid actions. I have thought about leaving him, but he can't take care of himself anymore. We have been married for over 20 years and I take my wedding vows very seriously (for better or worse). This stupid disease has paralyzed me....I just don't know what to do anymore.

jjaz

[boogieman]

hi. my heart goes out to you -- i know this is still a difficult time. one option is to stage an intervention of sorts in which yourself and other relevant persons confront him in a compassionate but serious manner, and set some boundaries. explain what is not acceptable and why, while stressing the real concern you have for his well being as well as your own. the greatest obstacle to this is usually denial of a problem, or minimizing it in an effort to accuse everyone of overreacting. as far as the risk of dui or worse, if he tries to blame his condition on something other than alcohol, you could start by asking him to submit to an alcohol test (chem strips or breath analysis) prior to and after driving. if he is evasive, it might be worth involving law enforcement (drastic, yes. but not as drastic as negligent homicide or manslaughter). as far as your business, incorporation may be advisable to protect assets. of course the best case scenario would be for him to agree to treatment, as that's likely going to be the most effective way to dry him out and begin to recover, but the best rehab money can buy can't produce sobriety in someone who doesn't want it. if you haven't already, it would be a good idea to check out al-anon also, for your support. i hope some of this helps. take care,  gm

[ironpetal09]

When are you going to stop trying to stop this man alone?? When are you going to stop pussyfooting around his drinking?? Get some help from the experts.  Let him go.

Nobody could smash down the wall of denial I had around myself only I could do that.  Alcoholism is a family illness it tries to isolate everyone - stop the isolation get the AA team around to speak to your husband and share their stories.  What are you afraid of ?because FEAR permeates the home of the alcoholic.  Your husband is relying on you to ENABLE his drinking......to pick up the pieces..........and run around protecting him here and there and arranging secret plans to get him to stop...............stop this now.  You cant make him stop.  NOBODY  could make us stop.  

Im sure your husband is not totally in oblivion Im sure he is a very very unhappy man inside and deep down knows something is not quite right and although this sounds contradictory we alkies are very intelligent people and we KNOW something is not right especially when its being pointed out to us and of course how ill we are physically.  

Go to al anon and get some numbers - surround yourself with the winners and sober people.  To hell with what he thinks...............Thats what happened to Bill W and thats how he got sober.  Hand him over or be destroyed because Alcohol will take you down too.

Some of us have to lose everything before we get it..............just make sure your protected for the fall out.  

Sorry for my harsh words but you know what you have to do.  First get help yourself because you are also in denial - you hope you think he will mend his ways - sorry nope he aint gonna mend them ways - get contacts and links to AA.  

We had to admit we where powerless over alcohol and our lives had become unmanageable - this is the first step not just for the Alcoholic but also for the family.

This is tough love..........behind that pisshead is an amazing man in recovery - do you want to meet him? Go looking for him then hes there in that mess somewhere but first you have to unlock the door on your fear you so you need the key of AA to do that.

Im sorry there is no other way so forget secret plans and hints and tricks they wont work.

[Pickles4Me]

Does anyone know how nanabandm is doing? (the original poster)  It's been a very long time since we've heard from her.  And how is jjaz and izzyxx?

[jjaz]

I'm still around reading posts. I was pretty upset and discouraged for awhile after reading ironpetal09's post. They obviously had not read all of my or the people's posts.

Yes alcoholism is a very cunning disease and it hurts everyone that it touches. I attend Al anon and Celebrate Recovery, and will continue to do so. Although my husband is still denying that he is drinking, that does not mean that I cannot get help for myself. I will always hope that he will get the help that he needs, but I won't be so stupid to think that I can do it for him. He will need to own his sobriety, not me.

I don't know where ironpetal09 read about secret plans to make my husband stop drinking. I have met with my accountant and others to discuss how to protect myself financially. Once again,  I am trying to take care of myself, not use secret plans, hints or tricks to make him stop.

Don't think that I am not grateful for ironpetal09's words of advice, but they really did not read the whole story. I'm sure that AA and other groups work for 99% of those that attend their meetings. However, it does not work for everyone....my husband being a perfect example.He just makes it part of his drinking ritual. He gets up, goes to his 6:45am meeting and then hits the ATM machine for $20 and goes to Walgreens to buy several airplane size bottles of JD. Speaking of little bottles, my neighbors are getting upset because they keep finding empty little JD bottles in their bushes. Apparently, he is getting up in the middle of the night and drinking and tossing the bottles all over the neighborhood. I found out from my daughters Girl Scout leader....that was a pleasant conversation.

Right now, my plan is to get through the holidays as best as I can. After the first of the year, hopefully I will have some plans in place for myself and my daughters. I have to take it one day at time and take care of myself and our children, since he is unable to do so anymore.


Pickles4Me, thank you so much for asking how I, Nana and izzyxx were doing. I too would like to know how the other 2 are doing.

Thanks for your prayers and concern.

I'll keep you all posted.

jjaz

[boogieman]

hi. sorry to hear things are still rough out there. i did the same thing for a while (drinking or drugging and going to meetings) but i guess it helped me get to the bottom with all the other bad things i put myself through. one thing about it, as another person in recovery that i greatly respect says, "a head full of aa and a belly full of liquor will make you sick as hell" and it can take a while. the scariest part is that we never know who will live long enough to reach the point of wanting it badly enough to recover. i was (and could be again if i so choose) one of those that went to rehabs, meetings, psych wards, emergency rooms, etc. for years and kept returning to the very thing that was killing me. and as those who saw how bad i got would predict, i was sealing my own fate to an alcoholic death. but i kept coming back to the people who told me there was a solution. i would fall further each time but i always got back up eventually, even when i had lost hope and wanted to die. so today when those same people see me sober they tell me i am a miracle. they tell me how they believed i would end up dead, locked up or permanently insane. but they also tell me they never stopped praying for me, as that is often all that can be done for those who can't or won't try to help themselves. and god willing, i won't need those prayers again as long as i don't pour that **** down my throat. i too worry about folks who are struggling now as i did especially when i haven't heard anything lately. but please remember there is always hope, help, and for what they may be worth to you, the prayers and support of myself and those like me who have been to hell and don't want to go back. best wishes---gm