Acute depression

[AltQuixote]

My daughter is 18, and has been under medication and counseling for depression for five years. She used to cut, and has made more than one suicide attempt in the past, but is significantly better now. She is brilliant (I am not bragging), and has done remarkably well in her high school, which is highly regarded in our area. She has topped in the subject she loves most and wants to major in. This, in spite of a difficult family situation and her depression, which was made immensely worse when her boyfriend broke up with her a few months ago in an extremely rough manner.

She is now waiting to get into undergraduate college, and has applied to four top schools in the area. She has already been selected by the third best, and is waiting to hear from the top two and the fourth. However, she is almost at breakdown stage - vomiting, crying, etc. - thinking about the prospect of going to either of the top two if she is selected. The reason is, there is a possibility that her ex-boyfriend will go to the same school as her and major in the same subject. Apart from the heartbreak of having to see him every day, she is also worried about him poisoning the minds of others in the class against her - after the break-up, he described him as a "psycho" on one of the social networking sites.

I have tried to explain to her that a person who has been so rude to her, must not be allowed to come between her and her career, for which the top school is obviously the best, the second from top the next best, and so on. Also, even if he tries to poison other classmates, he is not likely to succeed with most. And she cannot afford to let this get the best of her, because she may face similar situations during graduate studies, at the workplace, etc.

She does appreciate this logic, but is too weak to embrace it to the point where it can rid her of her anxiety and fears. She is aware of this weakness, and extremely worried about it, because her last counselor - the fifth she has seen - had brought up this issue. He appeared professionally competent but had to be given up on account of a certain unacceptable and harmful behavior. I am looking for a good counselor in the area, and being more cautious than before. Until I find one, I must help her myself, and to do this, I need to know these things:
(a) Have I responded to her fears in the correct way? and
(b) What should I do to boost her mental strength?

I would really appreciate some help with these issues.

[AltQuixote]

Many apologies for this late, late response. Not at all too blunt! Your posts have been VERY helpful. So, thanks again and again!

[gma2]

See that, you already had it figured out and had dealt with this. I told you before I am blunt which I do with honesty and respect for the most part. I do hope my posts to you have not been too blunt. I can't seem to do a thing about length *good grief* lol

My dad used to say, "I tells it likes I sees it" -  I think I got it from him.

Never change.
My very best
gma2

[AltQuixote]

I see what you mean. I will be careful ... probably continue to be low-key. And yes, I know very well that I can't be objective. There's no way.

In this area, I have already had a little help from people who are probably more objective than me, though not entirely. A friend of my daughter's seems to have  told her she should come back home (before she actually did). That girl's parents, who are my friends (therefore not likely to be completely objective) took it upon themselves to ask me to bring her back. It seems their daughter had talked to them about the problems my daughter had been facing with my ex and her family. Looks like my daughter - for obvious reasons - hadn't told me everything. But then I hadn't really asked, because I thought that wouldn't be a good idea.

Thanks again for all your concern, your blessings, and also for making me feel so good about my parenting!!

[gma2]

VERY THIN ICE! Please don't skate on that rink! I am so sorry if I gave you the message that "you" should have any influence on her time (or lack thereof) with her mother. I regret that tremedously! I should have taken that a little further and said that an objective someone (other than you) could maybe talk with her in a non-emotionally involved way and help her to see the damage to her very being her mother is placing on her.

You cannot do that objectively, you have to know that. As one divorced parent to another...your very mention of her mother evokes body language and voice changes you have no control of, but a child sees very clearly. No matter how hard you try, these cannot be masked. So please don't go there. You have this great relationship with her; it would put a fracture in that.

Kudos to her on her acceptance into the college she wanted very badly. It sounds like time stepped in here and she was able to work through all those 'demons' that tied her hands.

Please try to know, just know in your heart, mind, body and soul...you are a good man. I don't think you really know that because you are not trusting in your job with her. Kick back and enjoy the fruits of all your labor. She is on her way!!!!
The kindest blessings sent your way
gma2

[AltQuixote]

Apologies. I forgot to mention that you, too, had said I should point out the bad effect of staying with her mother.

[AltQuixote]

I can finally give you all some good news. My daughter has made it into the top school of her choice! As you might expect, she's very happy, and I'm hoping this will give her a little more confidence. Her ex-bf hasn't made it into the same program, and doesn't even figure on the wait list. There's a chance that he may get into another program in the same school, but my daughter isn't worried - at least doesn't sound like she is.

remar,

Thank you again for such sincerity and kindness!

gma,

Again, I am overwhelmed by your high opinion of me, and do hope it won't turn my head!

And yes, I can see what you say is absolutely true about her not being able to stand up straight until she can shake off her mother's influence. But so far, I have made it a point not to tell her she shouldn't stay with her mother, because I am afraid this may have the opposite effect. You know how some kids tend to do just what parents and elders in general tell them not to do. I have tried suggesting, just once or twice, and that too very gently, that staying with her mom hasn't been good for her. She hasn't contradicted me on that, so I think she sees the point. I will probably need to be more direct from now on, and maybe even more forceful. But of course, I am treading on thin ice here.

Thanks again!!

[gma2]

Yeh, I get the not talking too much about the ex. It is good you know your limits on the suspect...I mean subject!  *grin*

I have a theory here: I believe your daughter is living with you because you are the more stable one. (No rocket science involved in that)

What my theory is about actually is the "man behind the curtain." - that would be you.

I don't know you at all except from this post, but you have been nothing but kind, helpful, caring, understanding, patient, compassionate and a loving stand-up kind of father and that says a great deal about the man in you. (I don't throw this out often because too much of a good thing can swell heads, but my Codfish! what an all around good parent!)  

This is not achieved without sacrifice and heartache, and despite the fact that you are dealing with some really trying times (and people) you continue on because that is what matters.

So...how can we help you to help your daughter's mental strength? That seems to be the remainder here in this equation.  Bad news alert!

I predict any amount of time with her mother and the negativity involved in that is never going to allow your daughter a healthy mind. I honestly think IMHO she most likely will continue on the way she is as long as that situation remains. She lacks a backbone to bear the weight of what it takes to become a strong force in her own corner. If I may be blunt again, she puts up with the mother because you are not there to tell her it is not okay how she is being treated at the time she is being mistreated. Side note – what her mother is doing is child abuse pure and simple and downright mean. Verbally abusive. That doesn’t leave physical scars; it leaves scars on her very inner core.

She’s dependent on YOUR strengths and until she is independent of the mother’s wrath and foolish ways, I feel your daughter will continue being dependent on you.

There are no magic wands here, but I want you to know whatever happens with her and college, and her and the mom, and her and her next step we are here for you.

I wish I could come up with something here. I am sorry.
Gma2  

[remar]

have you told your daughter it may in her best interest not to see her mom for awhile? at least until she gets into school, that's the most important thing right now. she should be looking forword to school and not fighting with her mom. this should be such a happy time in her life, i really feel for her. i know how i feel about my daughter and all i want is for her to be happy, it breaks my heart when she is'nt. take care and let us know how things are going. remar

[AltQuixote]

Thank you for your continued interest, and such kind words - which I have heard from all of you, and felt great about. My daughter doesn't have to go, and doesn't really want to, but when her mother asks, she can't get herself to say no. That's the problem in some other things, too. As for supervised visits, my daughter will not agree, because she knows there will be an ugly scene. Not to say that I am blameless, but it's a fact that my ex seems incapable of discussing things coolly and rationally, or behaving in any way other than aggressive. And I don't think my ex will agree either, because she wants the girl all by herself, for obvious reasons.

Thanks again!!

[remar]

take as much time as you want, that's what we're here for, to help and get help.since your daughter is 18 now does she have to go with her mom or is it her own choice? what about supervised visits between you, your ex and your daughter? or is that out of the question? i don't think some parents realize what effect they can have on their kids and your ex sounds like one of them. she does better with you but when she's with your ex there's problems, that speaks volumes. i really hope things start getting better. you sound like such a wonderful caring father, thank goodness your daughter has you.take care and keep us up to date. remar

[AltQuixote]

OK, here I am again. Don't want to take up too much of your time, but it helps. So apologies in advance.

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Thank you! It does help to talk about this. But not too much, because even after four years I keep getting flashbacks once in a while.

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Great idea! I'll see that it's done. But there's nothing to prevent my ex from seeing the meds when my daughter goes to stay with her - unless my daughter decides either not to stay with her, or if she does stay, not to show her the meds. She is not strong enough for either.

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She doesn't drive, but that is not an issue, as we live in a large metro area. The problem is, whenever my ex is in town, she gets our daughter to stay with her for extended periods. My daughter doesn't like it, but can't say no. And that's also the case with other people. She can't say no when a friend offers "a few puffs" on her cigarette, etc. I know this can turn into something much worse than tobacco, and I try to explain that to her with various arguments. But I can see that there's nothing really to be done until she gains some toughness and willpower.

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She has a cellphone, and I pay the bill, not her mother. In any case, when we talk even for 10/15 minutes, I call, because I have more minutes than her. That's not the issue. The issue is this: My ex wants to lead her in a certain direction, which I can only describe as "frivolous" but not in an innocent way, and she is a little less effective (not totally ineffective) when I keep in touch and give our daughter my take on things. But her efforts aren't just for moulding our daughter in her own image. There are other motives, which may or may not be conscious on her part. I suspected this about a year ago, after she did various damaging things over two or three years. Then I consulted a certified therapist, who confirmed that personalities of my ex's type (borderline, antisocial, etc.) often do have just such motives. This is extremely complicated, and I really don't want to take more of your time and energy.

Anyway, the bottom line is, interventions will not be really effective until and unless my daughter gets some mental muscles. I think that should be the first priority for her next counselor. Everything points in that direction.

Thanks again!!

[AltQuixote]

Thank you so much, as always! Apologies for a late and quick response. My network card seems to have died and I am writing from a friend's computer. Can't have it too long. So, will read your post later.

And thanks again!!

[gma2]

Sorry that got so long. I tend to do that.

[gma2]

Well, you are very open and honest and in my book that means a great deal (especially the honesty - I don't handle lying well at all). Thank your for sharing; it puts new perspective on the. I hope you know though, you truly didn't need to do that. Did it feel good to get that out – that had to be some weight on the shoulders. Good if so.

With this revelation, though...well, it explains a great deal.

Ex's can be almost tyrannical in their actions (so foolish that) which are very detrimental to a child, and have long lasting effects as well. For a child/adult with issues as your precious daughter has (who by the way, is making wonderful strides), it can be insurmountably quite damaging for the mother to treat her so disrespectfully. That is...wrong. The family dynamics are high stress right now, so of course you are worried. How do we protect our children? That is the million dollar question.

Side note here: now that your daughter is 18, her medical records fall under the doctor/patient confidentiality rule. Her mother should no longer have access or further involvement in that from now on. Your daughter can (and should) do that ASAP an it can be done right in the doctor's office, or done legally (there is cause - the 'bullying' of the doctor and the 'changing of her meds')

That is terrible (and hurts my heart) to know your daughter is not only void of supportive stimulus from her mother, but instead, is receiving mistreatment by her. [Not letting her leave when she wanted to and the whole bit about the phone calls is absolutely juvenile].

Again, now that your daughter is 18 she can be more independent of that with work and time.

During that time, in today’s world there are so many ways of getting around all that.

Does your daughter drive? Could she meet her mother someplace? The family home does not seem to be a place where she is protected at all and she is not in control of her own actions). I would get this addressed maybe for starters.

I don’t know what state this is in, but most states now agree; once the child is considered an adult (18 or 21) I don’t know for sure, but if it was a court-ordered visitation situation…that’s all done now! There is no need for her to spend any time with her mother, but if she wants to spend time with her mother, she can limit that time to her own liking and leave when she feels like it. No human being can put restraints on another. She needs to understand that, and especially if she spirals backwards after the visits.  

Does she have a Cell Phone she can call you from? (If she's using her mother's phone, I guess the mom (although again immature) would have the say-so), but, she certainly can't take away (or even limit) your daughters cell phone calls to you. It isn't her dime then is it?

Or if she must use her mother's line maybe provide your daughter with 800# so that it doesn't cost the mother anything. (I'm assuming it is long distance) I used an 800 # while my girls were away to college and then when one moved out of state. TOTAL SENSE OF SECURITY! Knowing they knew they could call from anywhere and didn't need money to do it or add long distance charges on someone else's bill. They all have cells now though so I didn’t need the 800#

Again these are just suggestions.

Now, about you; I am so happy to hear you are taking care of yourself as well; not surprised it has taken a toll on you in some capacity (you are not superman LOL).

With much hopes for happier days ahead!

[AltQuixote]

No need to apologize at all! I really appreciate your concern, and understand perfectly well that the situation can't be understand without knowing the family scene.

I have been divorced for about a year now, and separated for four years. My ex-wife - "borderline" according to one doctor who treated my daughter, and "antisocial" according to another - lives very far from us. All this while, my daughter has been with me, because she can't deal with her mother for too long. When my ex is in town, things always take a turn for the worse. Around this time last year, my daughter had stabilized quite a bit. Then she came, saw my daughter's doctor, bullied him into cutting back the meds, and left after about a month. By then the damage was done. My daughter slid down the greasy pole. Otherwise she would have done even better in school.

My ex has been around for about five weeks now, took our daughter to her family's home, didn't let her come back when she wanted to, at least twice, and agreed to bring her back just a couple of days ago. This happened when my daughter got into some kind of fight with her and her family - I don't know the details and didn't ask. She called to say they were talking in insulting terms about both her and me. Also, my ex wouldn't let our daughter talk to me on the phone too long. It's another story that when my daughter is with me and her mother calls, I have never asked her to cut it short. She will take our daughter to her family again a few days before she leaves in the first week of July. I'm scared to think about what will happen.

My daughter's welfare is of course the main thing, but since you ask, I have been seriously affected and am on Zoloft. But I do try to take care of myself, because my daughter will need me as long as she isn't strong enough herself. I eat healthy and go for walks whenever I have the energy.

Thanks again!

[gma2]

Well, it is what it is Alt. Your efforts on behalf of your (very lucky) daughter are impeccable.

Okay, here comes the blunt gma. No one else has asked this and I am wondering, so I ask. Is mom no longer in your lives? If it is too personal, please feel completely free not to answer that. I just wondered where that situation was - if helpful or hindrance or not a factor - is all.

I am going to apologize ahead of time if that was too personal. I ask a lot of questions (look at anything I post! LOL) It is never meant to invade, please know that. It is only meant to 'get the whole picture' in order to understand in order to help. (Does that make sense - I'm a little off today) So, I apologize.

Also...are you taking good care of yourself through all this? I hope for your sake as well as your daughter's, you are being good to yourself in this.

Wish you well.

[AltQuixote]

Hello, all three of you! I will respond chronologically.

remar:
Thanks so much for your support. I will pass on your message to her.

gma2:
I am glad that discussions like this have helped you. It's helping me, too, immensely. And thanks again for thinking highly of my parenting.


nursegirl6572

Thank you so much! I think you are absolutely right. Her expectations of herself are very high. The problem is, when she can't meet those expectations, she finds it very difficult to accept that. This is why I need to help her become stronger and more resilient. I keep telling her that not getting no.1 is not the end of the world, that she will do well in life even if she gets into other schools, i.e., if she takes her studies seriously. But knowing her as I do, I know there is a bit of a crisis ahead if she doesn't get no.1. I have dealt with these crises before, and will deal with this one, too.

As for the ex-boyfriend issue, I have already told her something that is probably a small step towards what you suggest, though doesn't come close to being as fully formed or clearly stated. I have told her that just as she will be uncomfortable, he is bound to be too, even though it may be less for him. When the time comes, I will talk to her the way you suggest.

And yes, I always let her know how highly I think of her. But I am a little uneasy about that too. I keep thinking, am I responsible, even if partially, for her to pitch her expectations so high? I try to be conscious of that when I talk to her about these issues.

Once again, I am really grateful to you all!

[nursegirl6572]

Hi there....welcome to the forum.  Daddy's Little Girl, huh?  She is blessed to have you in her corner....and I understand that you feel she is fragile right now and you're trying to guide her in the best way possible.

GMA had an excellent excellent post and made some GREAT points...definitely some issues to think about.

First, it sounds like your dtr is a typical "Type A" personality, in that she is maybe a perfectionist, and therefore can be quite hard on herself?  The school issues will work themselves out in that she will either be accepted or not, which will obviously help in her decision.  If the #1 college is her dream.....I hope she makes the decision based on the important things...not based on this ex-BF which will be a NON issue in the near future.  Heck, they may even end up being friendly with one another.  I know it is impossible for her NOT to consider that when choosing a school, but I hope she doesn't weigh it too heavily.

Perhaps when she gets closer to her decision...you can approach it a bit differently...if she chooses the #1 school with the ex....maybe she could take a step to be a bigger person...call him and just simply say that she hopes they can put all of their past differences behind them and manage to be cordial when they see one another...that she wishes him nothing but the best and doesn't want a lot of tension for either of their sakes.  That may take a HUGE load off her mind.  He may really respond to that.  Put it this way...HE isn't going to want to start a new life with old baggage either....and he certainly wouldn't want all of that tension.  They don't have to be buds, but they are certainly old enough to be adult and call a "truce" to allow each of them to co-exist well together.

I know you will support her in whatever she decides, that is obvious...just keep reassuring her that whatever decision she makes will be the right one for her...b/c SHE is the one who will create her success and destiny...all of the other factors..the school, friends, ex-BF's are just background stuff.  Ya know?

Definitely keep trying with the counseling....some people go thru quite a lot of therapists before finding the right one...and if your dtr has that "Type A" personality...she will be MUCH more critical, both of the therapist, and of HER goals, progress, etc.

Keep giving her as much positive reinforcement as you can...focusing on all of her wonderful qualities, how proud you are of her...and that some day...all of these "tragedies" will be a distant memory.  I wish the best for her...this is a tough transitional time for any child, let alone one who has some other issues.  

Right now...I'm thanking GOD my dtr is only 10....lol.  I don't look forward to the teen+ years at all.  LOL.

Take Care...and please keep in touch on thr forum ok?

[gma2]

Wonderful. Please let us know how things are coming along.
I find it is the greatest feeling in the world to get that objective look at my issue at hand. Since I have been coming here, getting others' insightful responses and implementing some of the suggestions into my life, a whole new world has opened up for me.
Be kind to yourself. You are a wonderful father.
Take care

[remar]

sorry aboutall of the errors in my last post, my fingers and mind are not working together! take care. remar

[remar]

i'm so sorry for what youryour daughter is going through i understand because she sounds so much like my daughter. she has suffered severe depression since she was 12. she tried suicide twice within a year when she was 13. she is extremely intelligant also. the goods news is, she's 31 now, went through college and is partners in a small business. i could'nt be prouder of her. she still stuggles with depression and is taking meds for it. please tell your daughter that things will get better, to go to college and not worry about the exboyfriend, he will look like an idiot if he trys to talk bad about her.your daughter is so blessed to have a father like you who cares so very much. we must be there for our children, my daughter is my best friend, how great for me! take care and let us know how things are going. remar

[AltQuixote]

Thank you! I really appreciate your thoughtful response. In fact, she herself is acutely aware of the fact that she needs to be able to take care of herself, and very worried that she can't at present, because she lacks the necessary mental strength. As a result, other people use her for their own interests, not caring if it hurts her interests or not. That is why I am looking for ways to boost her mental toughness. However, I will think about the over-involvement issue to see if I am doing something wrong.

As for peer-to-peer counseling, she does have that in an informal way - discusses things with a slightly older and very level-headed girl, who happens to be the daughter of my friends, and some of her own classmates. But I will try to get her something more formal, under professional guidance, and also church/community involvement.

As for the top colleges, no.1 has always been her dream, and is a craze among her peers. And yes, I have tried to explain to her - and she understands it logically - that she could have problems with someone or other anywhere, any college, workplace, etc. But again, her mental weakness prevents her from taking courage from that. That is why I need to help her gain some strength.

Thanks again for your thoughts!

[gma2]

What a wonderful father you are! She is fortunate and so are you. Your daughter is hearing you. Some will listen, but do not hear. So, you've got a "one-up" on a lot of parents already.

With that said, and taking allowances here...as awful as this sounds at first, maybe give some thought about your involvement in your daughter's life. Could you be "too" involved? Do not mistake me. Please. I mean no disrespect at all. More parents should be as intuitive and helpful, and have half of the compassion you seem to have. I didn't really like asking that. The reason I did is because of a few things you mentioned:

She is 18 - considered an adult now. I realize her mental health issues deem her fragile in a sense to you, and you want to help her, and that is great. It also brings me to other things you mentioned.

She is "brilliant" (topped in the subject she loves most in a high school that is "highly regarded") and is going to go to one of the "top 4" colleges in the area.

As an adult, and as an intelligent person, maybe she could (should?) start taking on some of the responsibility of her own care and decision-making. Is that a possibility? She will continue to need you to take care of things for her if you constantly do. Could you help her from a little distance? She needs some growth (in my opinion). That would be the greatest gift, I believe, that you could give to both of you. The more she does on her own, the better her confidence and trust in herself would be. Wouldn't that be wonderful for both of you?  

These are a few things I thought about:  

"Peer Therapy" vs. one on one. It's just a suggestion, but if she were to be open to that and get involved with others her age group...it might help. Itwould likely be helpful to her to spend time with others of her own age with issues. Hearing others' stories in a peer setting tends to help put your own in perspective.It sounds like she could use some of that.

If she's squeamish on that and has already gone to that many therapists, I am also wondering about maybe (?) church involvement? If you have a church home, they may be able to help with resources. If not that, then possibly look into other community resources.

Finally, there are books. There are some wonderful books both you and she could read. Maybe get some recommendations from someone trustworthy that would be knowledgeable on these things.

One curiosity: Why does she feel the need to go to one of the top two colleges where she seems to believe she will run into the ex who will try to undermine her? With respect, this seems very immature to me and not at all intellectual thinking. She has already been accepted in one where that wouldn't be an issue. Where is the pressure coming from to make one of the top two? Isn't it okay to go to the one where she got the acceptance already? Why is there such a violent reaction to something that isn't a reality, moreover, to something that may not come to be?

She must realize, doesn't she, that at any school she attends, there may be someone there who doesn't like her for whatever reason. How will she handle that? Again, I ask and say these things respectfully and sincerely. Please do not think elsewise.

Other than that, and with the hopes she finds the help she needs, I wish you both well.

[AltQuixote]

Thanks! And nothing to be sorry about.