Individuals with social phobia have too much serotonin -- not too little

[gymdandee]

Individuals with social phobia have too much serotonin -- not too little

Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRIs) drugs work by making more serotonin available for use in your brain, which is thought to improve your mood.
Low serotonin has been the prevailing theory for explaining social anxiety, hence SSRIs are typically prescribed for this disorder.
New research shows patients with social phobia produce too much serotonin in the amygdala a brain region associated with primitive emotions like fear. Hence increasing serotonin increases anxiety.


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/06/150617115327.htm

[Paxiled]

By the way, you didn't quote and experts on how antidepressants work, you quoted a study on an observation about levels of serotonin in the amygdyla in people not on antidepressants.  The study and how antidepressants work are two separate things.

[Paxiled]

No, ssris don't increase serotonin in the brain.  This is what Gym keeps repeating, and it's not what experts say, it's what pharmaceutical companies used to say but don't say anymore.  I'll say in once more:  ssris and snris target certain receptors and only those receptors, and prevent the natural breakdown of serotonin by blocking the enzyme that does this.  This allows used serotonin to wash longer in those targeted receptors, bypassing entirely other receptors located all over the body, causing many of the side effects and withdrawal problems these drugs have.  Most serotonin is located and used in the digestive system, some in the blood vessels and muscles, less in the brain.  But these drugs do not cause the body to produce more serotonin -- it just blocks the breakdown of the serotonin the brain produces naturally and directs it to the targeted receptors and prevents this used serotonin from being broken down and evacuated, as the body does naturally and prefers to do.  The brain prefers fresh serotonin.  Because of this unnatural process, many who take these drugs will never be able to stop taking them, as the brain will never work naturally again.  The only way to produce more serotonin would be to somehow get the body to make more, which it makes from tryptophan and B6 and other cofactors.  These drugs do not in any way target this process or alter it.  I keep say this because I had to learn it when stopping Paxil destroyed my life, but when Prozac first came out Eli Lilly and its paid psychiatrists spread this notion that serotonin was the key to depression and later anxiety and that these drugs had cured the problem.  That of course wasn't true and isn't true, nor was it true that serotonin was at all involved in either of these problems but that concentrating it in certain receptors can in fact make a sick person feel better but they're still sick just as a painkiller makes the pain less but doesn't at all address the cause of the pain.  The problem in much of drug medicine is that most of it is published in studies paid for by drug companies and conducted by researchers paid by drug companies and prescribed by doctors paid by drug companies.  It's an entirely closed and corrupt circle intended to sell product, not to publish truth.  After a drug has been on the market for a few years, other independent researchers look into how the drug is performing and looks at the problems logged by hospitals and some physicians with the CDC and the FDA and then we start to learn the truth about drugs.  In the case of ssris, the problems came out of TV programs and journalist reports and books written by psychiatrists who questioned the premises posited by the drug companies.  All manufacturers ended up being fined by the FDA and forced to include many warnings about dangers they knew about but never reported to the FDA and also ended up paying out huge court judgments to injured plaintiffs.  I can't stop you from repeating the lies purposely spouted by pharmaceutical companies, but they're not even claiming this stuff anymore, but so many doctors still believe it and so many people taking these drugs still believe it because they read it in posts like this on the internet.  It isn't true, but it is true the information is still out there.  This happens with all drugs approved by the FDA -- companies withhold information that is negative, doctors write popular books to get rich that are inaccurate, and the information keeps getting repeated as if it were true.  It's why one of the standard costs of business for pharmaceutical companies is paying out huge fines to the FDA and other countries' regulatory bodies and sizeable lawsuit judgments that don't come anywhere near the amount of money they earn from selling the drugs on false premises.  Now, notice, I do say these drugs do help a lot of people -- I'm not for banning them or anything remotely like that.  For many they are lifesavers and for many they are life destroyers.  It's a coin flip with your life, but one that is often the only option.  It would be nice if the lying about it went away so these erroneous posts on the internet would go away, but they live on and on and google gives them prime search location whereas the independent stuff is really really hard to find -- you have to pretty much listen to public radio all day as I did when I could still go to the gym and google specifically for the dissenters to find out this stuff.  I had to do it to find out what had happened to me, since my doctor wasn't telling me.  Most don't have to do it, which is good.  Peace to both of you.

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by Paxiled, 5 minutes
By the way, consider this:  if these drugs significantly increased the amount of serotonin in the brain they could potentially cause a very serious condition called Serotonin Syndrome.  Normally, this doesn't happen by taking just one ssri, but many stupid psychiatrists and doctors put their patients on several drugs at a time that target different serotonin receptors.  While this helps some, it can overload the brain for a short period of time with serotonin due to the different targeting actions of different drugs and cause this condition.  It's also the reason that, for caution's sake, people are encouraged not to take St. John's Wort, which might affect serotonin, or tryptophan if they're on antidepressants targeting serotonin.  Just another sign that, by themselves, an ssri does not increase the amount of serotonin but does alter how quickly it's broken down and does direct what's there to a select few receptors.

[gymdandee]

"you keep repeating about how antidepressants work". I Post what the so called EXPERTS say!! If you have a problem with it then write to them and post the reply from them.

[Paxiled]

That isn't what I was referring to -- I was referring to your description of how antidepressants work, which is totally wrong.  I wasn't referring to this study, which is one of thousands scientists are working are to unlock the connection between the amygdyla and anxiety.  

[gymdandee]

So the latest research means nothing?

Individuals with social phobia have too much serotonin -- not too little

Date:
    June 17, 2015
Source:
    Uppsala University
Summary:
    Previous studies have led researchers to believe that individuals with social anxiety disorder or social phobia have too low levels of the neurotransmitter serotonin. A new study, however, shows that the situation is exactly the opposite. Individuals with social phobia make too much serotonin. The more serotonin they produce, the more anxious they are in social situations.



Many people feel anxious if they have to speak in front of an audience or socialise with others. If the anxiety becomes a disability, it may mean that the person suffers from social phobia which is a psychiatric disorder.

Social phobia is commonly medicated using SSRI compounds. These change the amount of the neurotransmitter serotonin in the brain. Based on previous studies, it was believed that individuals with social phobia had too little serotonin and that SSRIs increased the amount of available serotonin. In a new study published in the scientific journal JAMA Psychiatry, researchers from the Department of Psychology at Uppsala University show that individuals with social phobia make too much serotonin.

The research team, led by professors Mats Fredrikson and Tomas Furmark, used a so-called PET camera and a special tracer to measure chemical signal transmission by serotonin in the brain. They found that patients with social phobia produced too much serotonin in a part of the brain's fear centre, the amygdala. The more serotonin produced, the more anxious the patients were in social situations.

A nerve cell, which sends signals using serotonin, first releases serotonin into the space between the nerve cells. The nerve signal arises when serotonin attaches itself to the receptor cell. The serotonin is then released from the receptor and pumped back to the original cell.

'Not only did individuals with social phobia make more serotonin than people without such a disorder, they also pump back more serotonin. We were able to show this in another group of patients using a different tracer which itself measures the pump mechanism. We believe that this is an attempt to compensate for the excess serotonin active in transmitting signals', says Andreas Frick, a doctoral student at Uppsala University Department of Psychology.

This discovery is a major leap forward when it comes to identifying changes in the brain's chemical messengers in people who suffer from anxiety. Earlier research has shown that nerve activity in the amygdala is higher in people with social phobia and thus that the brain's fear centre is over-sensitive. The new findings indicate that a surplus of serotonin is part of the underlying reason.

'Serotonin can increase anxiety and not decrease it as was previously often assumed', says Andreas Frick.

[Paxiled]

Ah, well, here's my answer:   No, no, no.  This isn't at all true.  Gym, mental health isn't your forte.  SSRIs don't produce more serotonin or make more available -- they direct what you have to selected receptors and prevent the normal breakdown of serotonin so it washes longer in those selected receptors.  In the meantime, other receptors shut down as the body believes they're no longer necessary.  There is no serotonin deficit ever noted in anyone with mental illness except in very rare cases unrelated to the normal mental disorders people suffer.  As for the amygdyla, this has been the central area of investigation into anxiety disorders for ages as it's believed to be the origin site in the primitive brain for the fight or flight reaction and the attendant production of adrenalin.  But they can't crack the amygdyla yet, so they don't have any idea why it goes haywire.  Much recent research is on microorganisms in the gut, but nobody really knows yet.  The serotonin fantasy was pushed by Eli Lilly to sell Prozac, but it didn't last long, though it is true that these meds can make you feel less depressed or anxious by redirecting the body's natural system of utilizing serotonin.

[Paxiled]

By the way, the poster and I are old arguing buddies on other forums, so this is nothing against the poster, I just don't want people to be misled on the current state of amygdyla research and how serotonin actually works for people with anxiety.

[Paxiled]

I answered this on his private site.  He's got the whole notion of serotonin and how antidepressants wrong.  If you go on his private site you'll see my answer as to why this post is not useful to anyone with anxiety at this time.