Xanweaner, posted the below quote as an answer to Jan regarding bipolar diagnoses.
"On the bipolar front - again, only a professional should be arriving at that diagnosis. These days, it seems that everyone is walking out of medical offices with this diagnosis. Many of the SSRI's can trigger mania, and there is current discussion in the psychiatry field as to whether this one event determines if an individual is bipolar."
I am very intersted in the above discussion and had never heard of it. I would be very interested in hearing more about this theory. I have been depressed for as long as I can remember. I started taking Prozac in November of last year. After taking Prozac I experienced my first HIGH in a long time. I had been so down for so long it was and is hard for me to think of myself as up. Ater about 2 months on the Prozac I was pretty darn happy, I almost started skipping instead of walking. I hummed (believe it or not I'm walking on air song) and I like metal and punk...it was fairly disturbing. I went on a holidayshopping spree, bought all new clothes for the wife and myself. I bought a large gaudy pimp watch and so on. A social worker I saw in the ER after going back to wean off the med cocktail they put me on said I may be bipolar. The Psychiatrist I saw the next day said I was not and was depressed and had situational anxiety from the trauma. I of course explained to him that I could not be bipolar because I did not have manic then down episodes in rapid succession, he shrugged.
I am now about 1 month into the Prozac again after some trial and error with Zoloft and I am experiencing the extreme HIGH again. I am afraid that I will go out and do an impulse buy on a Porsche or buy another bad watch. I have explained it away as my 6th midlife crisis but I wonder.....
If any of you know about the above theory that xanweaner described please give me some feedback. I guess the theory is that an SSRi can release or trigger the mania, and unleash the beast. I have already spent my tax return so this could be a big problem. This is something I have thought about though. I often worry instead of enjoying my new found happiness; that it is a prolonged manic episode.
I know that it would take hundreds of dollars to get to the bottom of this with the current health care system. I would appreciate any feedback from xanweaner and others.....please elaborate. I will of course ask my Psychiatrist (who showed up at my A.A. meeting today...but he will just shrug. My psychiatrist strolled into my AA meeting today...that was trip! Thank you for any help and advice.
I've been following the work of Dr. Peter Breggin, a highly respected psychiatrist who is actively advocating in the mental health field, exposing fraud and other critical issues. Just google him to read up on his impressive academic background.
Here is an excerpt from one of his blogs on Jane Pauley and her resulting "mania" after she took AD's:
" What was tragic? Donny’s guest was Jane Pauley who was flogging her new book, Out of the Blue. Jane is the epitome of a media personality, having anchored the Today Show with Tom Brokaw and Bryant Gumbel, and having earned many broadcast awards. Jane is also a promoter of psychiatry. She admitted to having developed “hypomanic” (milder than full-blown mania) symptoms on an antidepressant. At the time, she explained, her mind and thoughts were racing and she couldn’t control them. But then she added that of course the drug didn’t make her become manic; the drug just “brought out” her underlying or pre-existing bipolar disorder.
Of course, I don’t know anything about Jane Pauley except what she’s told us and she’s not really the issue. Celebrities are actively recruited by marketing departments to promote medical and psychiatric treatments. I do know that psychiatrists often lie to patients to protect themselves and their drugs. My colleagues lie by saying the antidepressant merely “brought out” their mania, psychosis, violence or depression, rather than the drug caused it in the otherwise innocent victim. Jane Pauley thinks she is a victim of bipolar disorder when she sounds to me like a victim of psychiatry.
It’s no small matter to falsely inform a person that their drug-induced mania shows they have bipolar disorder. It results in a false diagnosis and a stigmatizing label (bipolar or manic-depressive disorder) that follows people for the rest of their lives. It leads to additional medications, often including antipsychotic drugs like Zyprexa and Risperdal that can cause lethal diabetes and pancreatitis, and tardive dyskinesia, a potentially disfiguring and disabling neurological disorder characterized by bizarre-looking abnormal movements."
I completely understand the holiday shopping spree - I did that, too. And I also understand the "high" that you're talking about, because I felt the same way. I had NEVER felt like this ever before in my life, but I also had never taken an AD before this happened.
Check out Dr. Breggin and read some of his clinical papers, presentations and you can decide for yourself what you think. My pdoc (old school) does not agree with his opinion, but I've had a recent discussion with a young, new psychologist from Univ. Cal. - Irvine about this very topic.
He confirmed that this topic is being debated in the psychiatric field. Dr. Gould, who is the Medical Expert in the Mental Health Forum here also confirmed the same fact. I posed this question to him in the forum about a month ago or so...you should be able to find it.
As I research more, if you're interested, just let me know and I'll be happy to share it with you.
The side effects of many of these SSRI's can be quite serious and life-altering. I won't even talk about the escalations in violence.....as you read more about Dr. Breggin's work, you will be shocked by what he's uncovered and been responsible for critical labeling changes on many of these medications.
Dr. Loren Mosher, too, was a great advocate, but he, unfortunately, passed away.
Curious to know your thoughts after this...
Wow this is freaking me out a tad. I think that balance and self awareness will be the key. This seems to be tied with suicide in young people and the prozac murder defense stuff. i would assume they come from the same place.
I have always tried to medicate myself with material things, so this is not new so to speak. I think that i would take the happiness and the anger reduction rather than the paralysing depression and anxiety. I guess only time will tell. I never set foot in a mall before this and now i am getting my head shaved leaving the side burns, shopping at Pac Sun and looking at my chest in the mirror.(forgot annoying chain belt..and desire for tattoos).
I think that therapy and AA will help AND rigourous self honesty. balance and moderation will always be a challenge for me, i would rather come from a happiness angle than the other alternative. I think bipolar is also a matter of degrees thus different options for different people....do you agree with any of this, or should I just go home to mommy.
I wonder if anyone else knows anything about this? xanweaner i still want more from you though, this has been an eye opener. I think I will buy a lawn spreader used from the classifieds instead of the new turbo scotts X-112 for 90 bucks...hey thats a start.
As I mentioned in my last post, Dr. Gould, who is the psychiatrist featured under Mental Health here at Medhelp (he's also affiliated with UCLA) also confirmed that this topic is under current debate in the psychiatric community. I'll try to find my post and his reply and send it over.
The reason I reference Dr. Peter Breggin is because of his high academic credentials as well as his world-renown recognition in the field of psychiatry. This is a psychiatrist who is active in advocating for the mentally challenged. His contributions are too numerous to list here...I wouldn't want to bore you or others - that's why I directed you to do your own reading on him. Don't just think of him as the "Prozac" Dr. - he's been responsible for many critical labeling changes ordered by the FDA, as he's uncovered fraud and secrecy by many pharmaceutical companies.
When I find more, I'll send it over to you.
I always disagreed with my pdoc on the diagnosis of bpolar disorder when the manic episode was triggered after taking an AD. If a patient did not exhibit bp symptoms prior to taking the AD, I intuitively felt that this was just not definitive criteria to use. Other factors need to be considered, additionally.
I began to question this and started my search for more information, and I'm continuing to research this and have dialogue with other physicians and psychologists in the mental health field.
Being labeled with this diagnosis is quite serious and shouldn't be taken lightly, especially if you're taking a mood stabilizer for the rest of your life.
Here is the post from the Medical Expert Forum asking Dr. Gould this question:
Mar 04, 2008 02:20PM
Tags: updated definitions
Dear Dr. Gould,
I do not understand how a diagnosis of bi-polar disorder is made when a patient takes an antidepressant, such as Remeron, when they are seriously depressed, and they end up in a manic phase? What if the patient has never had a manic episode in their life and did not have another manic episode again?
What if they do not fit the criteria of questions for the bi-polar diagnosis?
I have heard that this issue is now being discussed and the criteria may change?
What is your opinion of this? What is the most recent research telling us?
Thanks for your assistance..
by Roger Gould, M.D.
Mar 04, 2008 02:46PM
I am not a fan of the diagnostic criteria that create all these diseases. You are right to be confused because experts are debating this. Please just remember that the most important thing is to treat the patient and not the label. One manic episode, if it is serious, is enough to alert the clinician about the kinds of medications to be used and the kinds to avoid. That is really all that matters.
While I was reading some clinical papers this evening from psychiatric journals, I did come across one paper talking about the incidence of hypomania after patients underwent multiple drug trials.
That's what happened to me...I was rx'ed nearly the entire class of ssri's over a period of months - couldn't tolerate any of them... Once I began my treatment with mirtazapine, a severe hypomanic episode occurred. When things settled a bit, the shopping started, etc. - all the things that we wrote about in our earlier post...
I'm not a professional and I'm commenting from my personal experience with hypomania. Each time (twice) I've had a hypomanic episode it was preceded by a long period of a depressed/anxious/obsesive state and while taking an SSRI (the guilty culprate for triggering mania). Now from my research and experience it is my understanding that if some one is predisposed to bipolar by genetic inheritance then it is very probable that an SSRI could trigger a manic episode. Actually there is no other way to develope bipolar than to be born with it. Now that does NOT mean that that person will be depressed and manic 24/7 from birth till death. Bipolar or Mania itself (Mania can happen without a depressive episode) its almost always preceded/triggered by a very stressful or truamatic event in a BP person's life (death, divorce, abuse). Or a person may be enduring an ongoing source of stress like an abusive relationship, exessive and demanding work, unhealthy internal attitudes and viewpoints. It can also come from "positive stress" doing tooo much of a good thing or reaching some major milestone ect. The interesting things is, is that after my second hypomanic episode my Grandma reveiled she had mania when she was younger. She didn't know about mine. My mouth dropped inside my head and the puzzel was finished. So if you can without offending any family member ask around to see what their histories are with depression/bipolar. It is usually passed from parent to child or in my case it skipped a generation. So to be born with bipolar is like being born with a dormant gene that will usually rear it ugly head in the teen to adult years. But if a person leads a fairly calm healthy life it may never come out. They would never know they have it. But it REALLY picks me off that twice I was given antidpressants which both times ended in a hypomanic episodes. And the kicker is that when you are in that state you don't realize it and just feel on top of the world! But let me emphsize it was in conjunction with my continuing to push and push my self mentally, emotionally and physically. I also did everything on the check off list for triggering an episode. Certain things happened that were out of my control but other things were. My hypomania snow ball started off with anxiety attacks, fatigue, slowing me down in my exessively active life-not slow enough though. But I didn't take a clue. I had alternative doctors and my GP give me evidence that stress was taking it's toll and that my adrenal glands were fatigued. Adrenals are the stress glands that go off wack and end up causing adrenaline swings in mania (very high energy than sharp drop to the point where I'd have to lye down-happend frequently through out the day). My brother moved to china, had another emotionally truamatic experience, went to china which 13 hrs ahead messed with my sleep which is CRUCIAL to have as a bipolar patient. Now this may sound funny but believe it or not, a doctor said that for certain people falling in love, lust, sexual attraction can cause mania which always coincided with the climax of my hypomanic episodes. I remember with my last boyfriend the first day or two of dating I got up at 2/3 am and organized my house and back to bed at 7a.m. Believe me, I'm naturally not an organizer. And here is the kicker when I started dating him I stopped taking my antidepressant because it made me feel TOO HIGH. What does that tell ya! MANIA LOVE SSRI - Natural Cocaine- ha ha. Luckily my mania didn't drive me to do anything really stupid. My symptoms were hyper-sex drive, hightened senses, general hyperness, unrealistic ideas and plans, racing thoughts, talkitiveness to name some.
This is what I think. Before your GP/Psychiatrist puts you on an SSRI, they should ask if you have a history of bipolar, mania or if it is in the family. If this is able to be established then DON'T perscribe an SSRI. Why would you prescribe someone a Mania pill? That's what an SSRI is to those who are prone to mania. I'm sorry but it really picks me off because Mania can really mess you and others over. KC, I know I'm responding to your post 3 years later but your psychiatrist who shrug's his shoulders when you ask him important questions. Ditch him. Get a doctor who is open with you. Don't let someone just throw pills at you. Only you know you best and what you have experienced. You are your best advocate and defender. All the best!
Sources: Complete Idiot's Guide to Bipolar Disorder, by Jay Carter, Psy. D and Bobbi Dempsey
( I really like this book because it describes all the triggers, treatments, brain chemistry and physiology, the conditions mistakely diagnosed as bipolar, etc, ect. And Dr. Carter has a mom and daughter with BP)
For alternative therapies try: The Ultra Mind Solution by Mark Hyman, M.D.
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