Ritualistic behaviors in school

My daughter has PDD-NOS (well, she's only 3, but the doc seemed to think she had that form of autism).  Anyways, I'm posting on the aspergers forum because I thought I might get parents who have their kids in school or preschool.

My daughter just started developmental preschool.  She just turned 3 and is still not potty trained.  She has a ritual where when she gets dressed or changed pullups/diaper, that when she puts her pants and pull ups back on, she must put the left leg in before the right leg.  The teacher had a parent teacher conference with me on Friday and she wants to break her of some of her ritualistic activities and she said she would not give special instructions to the aide who changes diapers/pullups (she also assists the older kids in wheelchairs or have physical impairments throughout the day so she is not in the early childhood classroom except to take the kids to the toilet at a set time towards the end of class).  

I guess my question is, my feeling was, for ritualistic behaviors that involve herself, we should let her do them how she wants to.  She is learning how to dress herself, and she's going through potty training... so she'll be doing these things on her own eventually soon... so why does the teacher want to make her throw a meltdown fit over this issue?  Seriously?  Yeah, it's towards the end of the classroom day...

Am I being too conservative?  Should I allow them to do this?  Or should I tell them "No, let her alone on this issue!" ?

One of the other things she does ritualistically is how she does puzzles... top to bottom, left to right, like you would read a book.  She can do 30 piece puzzles quickly like this.  Now, I can understand if she's doing a puzzle with other kids, why there would be a need to break this particular ritualistic behavior... Do kids do puzzles with other kids in school?  Why can't she work on the puzzle by herself?  I personally would be frustrated if I had to share a puzzle with someone else.  Maybe I'll get labeled antisocial or something.  LOL...  Again, why are they doing this?  Is it to normalize her?  I don't want my child "normalized" by the public school system.  

Now, having said all these things... if the answer is to contradict the teacher on the issue, how do you politely bring the topic up?  I don't have a great score on communication... I either get all confused in a conversation (if it's face-to-face) or I freeze up and don't say what I need to.  Or if I script it all out, then of course I'll get interrupted with questions and I guess I don't do well with that either.  Maybe I should have my husband call her up.  

And another thing she wants me to do is to try to change her diaper and put on her clothes the "wrong" way and have her throw a fit. At home, on a daily basis.  I actually had to admit to her that I couldn't do that.  I have my own sensory issues that I can not tolerate too many screaming fits.  I am very hypersensitive to sound.  My daughter also knows I detest having my hands pulled and my hair touched.  So when she wants something she will grab my pinky finger and twist it (when she's mad I usually walk around the room with my hands raised above my head so she can't reach them).  She can't talk yet.  So, yeah, I confessed that to the teacher during the quarterly parent-teacher conference.  Now she probably thinks I'm wierd and strange.  I mean, it's not cool for an adult to have sensory issues.  I should have been "fixed" by now, right?  I also have some "OCD" like behaviors myself.  I think other people should respect my personal decision on how I do my personal things, so why would I not respect my daughter's personal choices on her personal things?  I do put limits on things that involve other people or interactions with other people and have been teaching her that she has to respect other people's desires and wishes.  

So am I wrong?  Yeah, this is a really shady gray area here.  One therapist will tell you one thing, another will tell you a different.  I just remember back in July when her developmental pediatrician (the specialist who diagnosed her) told us to be careful when she went to developmental preschool because many teachers will try to normalize her, and if they do that she will probably shut down and hate school and not learn.  He also said that her brain is different.  She's capable of early reading (she's already starting to), doing puzzles advanced for her age, and other things advanced for her age because her brain is different.  He thinks if we try to normalize  her, that she'll not be able to compensate in life for the things she is behind in.  He also said that she desperately needed speech therapy and occupational therapy.  She does need those things.  

I just don't know what to do, what is the right way to go.  And how on earth to have a conversation with the teacher about it.  Maybe I should email her.  That's the best way I get my thoughts out I suppose, and she can't interrupt me during an email.

[mtgoat911]

your daughter sounds like she is telling you loud and clear "mom i am not ready"
i am not a doctor, or therapist, the information i provide comes from my heart rather than a book
i have lived with a mild case of aspergers for 32 yrs, and my son developed some of the asper traits, infact he got hit with them alot harder then i did
i felt very pressured to send my baby off to pre-school, after all thats what is done, but why??
why do we feel pressured do send our little ones off to school this early?
3 year olds are not ready!!
but i did it too, everyday,
i really regret this, i should have been the one to teach my son how to control the ocd, i should have been the first one to see him write his name, i should be the one giving the "teachers" advice on what my child needs
sometimes we have so many people telling us what is wrong with our kids and we stop listening to ourselves
i suggest that you start working more with your child, let her lean more on you, find an aspergers parent support group! at one time i let my son teacher convince me that he needed to take medication to learn, i allowed me child to take a drug that was affecting his mood and weight, all because i was listening to others
you find out what your child needs, help he with her weeknesses, dont make her feel different because she may be a little ocd
i had a touch of ocd, but i was very adhd and i knew that i was different, then i had to take medicine, i changed schools a million times, saw so many doctors, but all i wanted was my parents acceptance, give your child this
let her know that aspers is not so bad
i used this book when my son was little http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=01282
but there are others out there that are not "christian" material
at Barnes and Noble they have 3k workbooks, grab one and take her down to the park
let her see that learning is fun, right now she is only 3 and already seems to be stressing out over school
i am not lecturing you, i am sure it sounds that way,, i have been there!!! i have been your little girl and i am also learning alot parenting a learning disabled child
follow your heart, find a support system
i wish you the best of luck

[Sally44]

Is your child going to a pre-school that has experience of autism?
The things that are being suggested, is that by the teacher or a therapist?
What is the point of doing the things this teacher suggests, and could they be done in a better way?
As ritualistic behaviour is part of a diagnosis of autism, then I don't understand what this teacher is trying to achieve or why she is interfering with a routine that doesn't actually harm anyone.
I too am touch sensitive and the thought of putting on clothes back to front makes the hairs tand up on the back of my neck.  These issues should be addressed by an Occupaitonal Therapist using a step by step programme that has goals and which will be monitored.  I agree with you that the things suggested sound very open ended with no reasoning behind it.
I also agree with you about your child doing puzzles/games.  Autistic children should not be made to join in or comply.  They need to be taught how to so that they can do it better if they want to.  Why is her way of doing puzzles not acceptable?  Is it because the other children can't do it like that?  Well what if your child cannot make the puzzles in the way the other children do?
My son also has some rigid behaviours that school will have to address.  But it will be done in a controlled way and for a reason.
If your daughter dresses herself in a very rigid way because that is the way she remembers how to do it, then any change will mean she is unable to dress herself.  But I would want an OT advising me and not just a teacher.  And the change would need to be one thing at a time and very gradual, not put her clothes on back to front!
Does your daughter still have access to an OT?
I think it would be best to email your concerns as you will be able to collect your thoughts and won't have anyone interuppting you.  You will also then have it in writing.  But you could say something like you recognise the behaviours the teacher is talking about, but that you want an OT and Educational Psychologist to put together a programme that is gradual and measurable.

[Sally44]

Does the teacher think that because you have OCD issues that you have somehow 'trained' your daughter into OCD behaviour?
If doing things differently will cause her to become anxious/stressed and throw a tantrum then it would be unwise to 'not' inform the woman who changes the diapers.  It just doesn't feel right to me.  If you want to break a routine you don't throw a 3 year old, non verbal autistic child, in at the deep end.  Go with your gut feeling.  You don't have to agree to anything.  I would ask for advice from OT and EP.

[Mjthewritermom]

I just wanted to mention something we found out with Mj as she was in grade school with her ritualistic behaviors.  That is that when they get rid of one, another takes its place.

I shared before how we were pressured into putting MJ on meds for hyperactivity which made things worse and the school backed out of their demand for us placing her on the meds and asked for us to take her off (!!!!)  Based on that experience, I was not too thrilled with the teachers later telling me not to give MJ the glow in the dark bug stickers as they thought that would only encourage her obssession with insects.
I shared how that didn't work....she snuck catipillars and stuffed them in her socks which squished them.  She made what I call "bug chow" in a bowl by sticking grass and bugs and making chopping motions saying...kill bug, kill bugs!"  

Every time we tried to make her stop doing things...it didn't work.  What worked was substitution such as:

When MJ licked her fingers...we had to find a better way of dealing with it rather than to say, no, no, no!!!  Using the lotion was a better choice.  It was written into the IEP from later grade school on through High School to have her lotion with her.

Just like letting her leave class before the bell rang to give her extra minutes to get to the next class.  It was too overwhelming with all the students around her rushing to/fro with her scrunching herself to avoid them.

It is something to keep in mind as you see things your child does and not know why.  I believe from experience, there is a valid reason in her self for doing it.  

It is a matter of being willing to learning why and how to best adapt things.  I would affirm what others said that you think carefully what you are advised...look/think about your gut feelings.  She is young now and full of possibilities.

[Sally44]

As a parent with a child on the spectrum I continually find it frustrating that professionals want to 'stop' their autistic behaviour to try to replace it with 'normal' behaviour.  Why can't they use their autistic abilities and interests to teach them things they need to know????
Actually, the school my son is now at is brilliant.  But the previous one was a nightmare.  They would try to make him place with toys in a conventional way or make other children 'join in', which usually meant my son would get up an walk away.
It is now in his IEPs that he is allowed to do things on his own and play with things in unconventional ways.  He likes to collect what I can only call 'trash' in the playground, so they are going to give him a 'bits and bobs' chest.  He fills this with sticks, anything shiny or pieces of metal he finds on the playground.  He also puts leaves, seeds, broken pencils etc in it.  The school are going to use this interest by letting him go on scavenger hunts with one other pupil and he will be taught how to engage in social communication whilst they are doing this.  I have high hopes that this might actually work!

[mtgoat911]

i agree with sally, the world today is at its lowest moral in history
i prefer the fact that my children do not "fit in" with typical "normal" behaviors
i was shocked to listen to the stuff they were learning at school, in and outside the class room
give children a chance to go through their awkward phases, quit telling them at such a young age, that they are different and disabled

[888mom]

I had to fight my daughter's old speech therapist 6 months ago about the puzzle ritual thing.  I followed my gut and told her no.  I also managed to get the advice of my daughter's developmental pediatrician (it was before she had the PDD diagnosis).  He said if she has OCD or ritualistic behaviors, if you stop her from doing one thing, it will just pop out in another area and you'll be dealing with the same problem over and over and you'll just end up frustrating your daughter the whole way through.  I also had to fight the OT back then as well about a couple of issues. This was when we were in another state and had a ST, OT, and a developmental therapist.  The developmental therapist and speech were the best.  They both respected if I disagreed with them.  The speech person disagreed with me about the rituatlistic behaviors, but she at least respected my decision.  The developmental therapist was 100% with me in what I felt.

We're in a new state.  I feel like I'm having some of the same arguments with the school system now.  I know they have experience with autistic children.  It turns out one of the people in the clubs I recently joined has a son who is 1 year older who has autism (he was diagnosed a year ago, about the age my daughter is now).  He's been in the class for a year now.  His mom, my friend, was a little surprised to see my daughter on the bus when it came to pick her son up.  It was a little surprising for me to hear that her son has an autism spectrum diagnosis.  I guess it's not something that you'd just go out and tell everybody you meet.  She's a former school teacher, and she is now helping me on what to say to the teacher and how to say it.  She realizes that parents have to be proactive for their kids and that some teachers would rather do what they want to do without the parents involved.  Well, it turns out I made a recent friend that hopefully I won't bother her too much.

The developmental preschool is twice a week for 2 1/4 hours.  She is not there that often, nor do I wish her to be more often.  She is seeing in addition to the regular teacher, an OT and a speech pathologist (ST) who are at the school.  My daughter has 30 minutes of speech twice per week and 30 minutes of OT once per week.  The OT and the regular teacher both want to minimize my daughter's rituatlistic behaviors.  My gut instinct is let her be ritualistic if it doesn't affect others.  And sure, the potty changing right now affects others, but she will be potty trained one day, even though it maybe a year or two off.  But, they shouldn't pick this ritualistic behavior of all of them to change.  

I am following up with the teacher about the issue in writing. I said now was not a good time to pick this battle since she just started school and I did not want her to start hating school because of fear over this issue that to both myself and my husband we do not see as a priority to fix or correct and that it was not listed on her IEP.  I also put that I would need to talk to her about the issue further on the phone or in person.  The letter goes with my daughter to school tomorrow.  I will be calling her probably tomorrow afternoon, after preschool is out.

I guess I'm frustrated because my daughter just started preschool.  I didn't expect to be having confrontations right off the bat!  I'm sure there will be many more to come along the way.  At least I know I have a friend who can help me navigate the system a bit... I just hope I don't frustrate her by calling her up too often.  *sigh*

[themusicpainter]

She's three years old! Remember that. Teaching her to dress herself and other things are not things like teaching physics...by that i mean....it's ok to do it your own way, there is no "right or wrong" way to dressing yourself, or to doing puzzles!!! Heck, i can't do a puzzle any other way than top to bottom or left to right.
The teacher obviously has some pre-determined ideas in her head about autistic/OCD/ or asperger's children. it is Your daughter, not hers, and she cannot tell your child or do anything to that child without YOUR say so. If your daughter is doing great dressing herself, then leave it alone! My mom puts on her right sock before her left, EVERY MORNING,and she's the most normal person I know.
It's not "special" attention, it's not "special" anything. Its called respecting different people, and respecting different children. It sounds like the teacher might be fighting out of principle or because of mis-informed information. Find out the teacher's reasons for changing your daughter's habits, then, after she's said her piece, you say yours, despite the fact that she will want to interrupt you. Think about this...what kind of a teacher interrupts the parent of a student of ANY age.. That's just rude.
Do what you think is right!

[Sally44]

The other fact is, that if they are going to be trying to stop ritualistic behaviour for a couple of hours a week in pre-school, but not anywhere else (ie. at home), then frankly they are wasting their time and stressing your daughter unnecessarily.
If it is everyone's opinion that your daughter is very rigid and ritualistic in her approach to everything then maybe that is something to look at at some point in the future by introducing the concept of 'change' and using a symbol to represent a change and by concentrating on introducing chnage in just one area but frequently so that she gets the idea of what it means and how she copes with it..  But as we all know there is a 'reason' for that rigid behaviour and she may not be able to do it a different way.  If it is OCD behaviour then as you have already been told, it can surface again in another area.  The best way to reduce either of these behaviours is to have a highly structured stress free environment.

[888mom]

I forgot to update the status on the school thing... turns out I misunderstood some of what the teacher said... they aren't going to force the issue of changing left or right leg first in the clothes/diapers... they're just not going to give special instructions to any aide who happens to change her.  If she can communicate that the left leg goes first, then that's what happens.  If not... well, the aide will have to deal with the meltdown.  But they are working on teaching her to do it herself, which she's getting better at.  So when she puts on her own pants, there won't be any hassle with anyone, she can choose whatever she wants to do.  I guess I can't argue about the special instructions to do left first instead of right.  They said they have different kids on different days (they have afternoon as well as morning class, and my daughter only does 2 days per week, which is most common).  So, no special instructions.  I guess that's better than forcing it the wrong way.  *sigh*

Good news is I found an OT who works with adults on sensory integration (SI), and she makes home visits!  So thank you to my daughter's OT at the public school for finding out that contact for me.  It is amazing how much my daughter  has progressed with SI therapy in the last year.  She tested within normal limits for sensory issues, though she still does have a few, and she still qualifies for an OT because of her PDD diagnosis.  I would be afraid to see where I tested for my sensory issues... Am interested to see what adults can do.  They say it's important to get our kiddos doing therapy at an early age because the brain is still being formed, and with the sensory integration stuff especially too.  I keep hearing anytime before they are teenagers, and even as teenagers, it can still work amazingly... just wonder what they can do with me as an adult in my 30s.  Am I too old?  And will I like the therapy or agree with it?  Or go crazy because of it?