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5 yr old Behavioural Problems at School
My 5 yr old son is having big problems at school. He is a very strong willed (always has been) very forward thinking, but he cannot behave at school. Constantly talks over the top of teachers, goes on and on and on about the same things. Runs of from the teachers. When he is told of he does not seem to care at all - grounded from going out at playtime and he does not have an issue with it at all. Teachers say that he does not react normally to punishment - as in he shows no respect for any adult at school. Teachers said they have never met a child of 5 like him they normally expect his behaviour in year 5 or 6. He never sits still and I am so sad for him, I am so sad to have to be constantly telling him of. He has since being a baby been quite forward always the first to climb anything, never really slept very well. To add that at home we dont have any major problems with him, he does go on a lot and is very loud which can be a bit draining but mostly seems to be a normal kid. Did take him to see a behaviourial Chap about a year ago beacuse was being generally naughty at nursery and they said he was perfectly normal. Am at wits end and really need some help.
The other thing I wanted to get across to you is regarding you saying he isn't bothered about punishment.
Lets talk about something a bit different eg. being selfish. How is someone selfish? When they only take into account their own wants/needs and don't consider anyone elses wants or needs and always put themselves first.
However, if you do not have any understanding of another persons needs or wants you cannot consider them.
A truely selfish person is able to undersand another person has needs and wants and can share and can put other people first, but they choose not to do so.
An autistic person may not have any understanding of 'another person' or understand that their 'needs' or 'wants' are different to theirs. So they are not being selfish if they have no real concept of 'other people' or 'other situation's. Does that make sense?
However the behaviour of both sets of people may appear as being selfish.
Lets talk about something a bit different eg. being selfish. How is someone selfish? When they only take into account their own wants/needs and don't consider anyone elses wants or needs and always put themselves first.
However, if you do not have any understanding of another persons needs or wants you cannot consider them.
A truely selfish person is able to undersand another person has needs and wants and can share and can put other people first, but they choose not to do so.
An autistic person may not have any understanding of 'another person' or understand that their 'needs' or 'wants' are different to theirs. So they are not being selfish if they have no real concept of 'other people' or 'other situation's. Does that make sense?
However the behaviour of both sets of people may appear as being selfish.
I had to split my post in two.
My son also went to a Church school previously. He went for 3 years and they never got any real understanding of his difficulties. As you say, I just don't think they were interested in the problems of one child out of the whole school.
I would recommend you look around for a school that does have experience and expertise in autism. Try the National Autistic Society and Parent Support Groups. Contact your Education Department and ask them for schools in your district that have children on the spectrum. Go and visit those mainstream and special schools.
Regarding turning off the TV. If it is something he likes let him watch it. You can also use it as a reward ie. Do xxxx first and then TV. If it works for you to have it off so that you can get him to do something okay. In my situation I have to have the TV on just to get him out of bed in the morning.
Try to work with their interests/obsessions and encourage them to learn skills through their interests.
Appearing deaf is very common for children on the autistic spectrum. This is a sensory/attention issue. Ie. he is putting all his attention into whatever is taking his interest and everyone/everything else is blocked out.
In a school classroom sitution that means that he is effectively deaf to what the teacher says alot of the time. That has huge implications from a learning point of view. He can't learn what he cannot hear. Again that is why visual supports are used so much.
My son also went to a Church school previously. He went for 3 years and they never got any real understanding of his difficulties. As you say, I just don't think they were interested in the problems of one child out of the whole school.
I would recommend you look around for a school that does have experience and expertise in autism. Try the National Autistic Society and Parent Support Groups. Contact your Education Department and ask them for schools in your district that have children on the spectrum. Go and visit those mainstream and special schools.
Regarding turning off the TV. If it is something he likes let him watch it. You can also use it as a reward ie. Do xxxx first and then TV. If it works for you to have it off so that you can get him to do something okay. In my situation I have to have the TV on just to get him out of bed in the morning.
Try to work with their interests/obsessions and encourage them to learn skills through their interests.
Appearing deaf is very common for children on the autistic spectrum. This is a sensory/attention issue. Ie. he is putting all his attention into whatever is taking his interest and everyone/everything else is blocked out.
In a school classroom sitution that means that he is effectively deaf to what the teacher says alot of the time. That has huge implications from a learning point of view. He can't learn what he cannot hear. Again that is why visual supports are used so much.
It isn't being 'naughty' it is being 'autie' (as in autistic).
An example of my son's behaviour:-
Last night was Youth Club night for my older daughter. My son did not want to leave the house. This is a typical reaction from him. He likes to be in familiar surroundings with his toys and watch TV or a DVD.
But when it was time to go we had to leave. I had given him lots of verbal warnings eg. in 30, 15, 10, 5 minutes we have to go.
When I turned off the TV he got angry and upset. He refused to co-operate and put on his shoes and coat. He started shouting at me calling me stupid, a loser, a bad mom etc.
So I said to him, 'those words you are using are rude word'.
Then he disolved into tears saying 'what is wrong with me, what is my brain doing. I can't control myself'. He was in tears. We were getting late for YC. My daughter is getting aggitated. I'm getting stressed.
I told him 'everyone gets upset and sometimes they use words they don't mean. If we say sorry afterwards it is okay'.
But he wasn't having that. He was now a bad person because he had said rude words to his mum.
(They tend to have very black and white thinking with no grey areas and only one solution to a problem).
He said 'maybe I am turning into a teenager'. (He must have seen that somewhere on TV ie. bad behaviour = teenager. So I said no you are too young for that. So then he said 'I am going to stop talking forever'.
Eventually we started walking to the YC. But it took a good 15 minutes for him to calm down after that event. And mine/my daughters nerves were frazzled again!
Now that behaviour was not naughty. That was autism. The difficulties with transition, changes to routine, stopping and starting things. Social communication problems and language problems. Concrete thinking etc.
An example of my son's behaviour:-
Last night was Youth Club night for my older daughter. My son did not want to leave the house. This is a typical reaction from him. He likes to be in familiar surroundings with his toys and watch TV or a DVD.
But when it was time to go we had to leave. I had given him lots of verbal warnings eg. in 30, 15, 10, 5 minutes we have to go.
When I turned off the TV he got angry and upset. He refused to co-operate and put on his shoes and coat. He started shouting at me calling me stupid, a loser, a bad mom etc.
So I said to him, 'those words you are using are rude word'.
Then he disolved into tears saying 'what is wrong with me, what is my brain doing. I can't control myself'. He was in tears. We were getting late for YC. My daughter is getting aggitated. I'm getting stressed.
I told him 'everyone gets upset and sometimes they use words they don't mean. If we say sorry afterwards it is okay'.
But he wasn't having that. He was now a bad person because he had said rude words to his mum.
(They tend to have very black and white thinking with no grey areas and only one solution to a problem).
He said 'maybe I am turning into a teenager'. (He must have seen that somewhere on TV ie. bad behaviour = teenager. So I said no you are too young for that. So then he said 'I am going to stop talking forever'.
Eventually we started walking to the YC. But it took a good 15 minutes for him to calm down after that event. And mine/my daughters nerves were frazzled again!
Now that behaviour was not naughty. That was autism. The difficulties with transition, changes to routine, stopping and starting things. Social communication problems and language problems. Concrete thinking etc.
Dear Sally,
Thankyou so very very much for your reply. So much of what you have put is totally right. I shall definatly be asking for a multi-disciplinary team evalutation from the doctor. My little boy has only been at school for 3 weeks, but we have had problems at nursery for the last year and a bit. As you suggest about the dinner time thing, I did suggest that I collect him from school at lunchtime and return him in time for the bell but I dont think this is the right thing to do at this stage. We have over the last two days started the task of taking the TV treat away and trying to make the house a calm listening environment. What you said about the deaf issue is something I have been concerned about (so concerned I request a hearing test over 8 months ago), he has an appointment at the Audiology Department shortly, I am quite certain nothing is wrong with his hearing but he often seems to not hear us at all. We always have to repeat things several times and sometimes he even asks us to repeat things over and over.
His school is one of the top Church schools in the County and I have my concerns that although they care about him they would rather not have a child like my son on their books (or perhaps I am being paranoid). I have asked them what they suggest and what they can do to help him. The only thing they keep saying is they have never met anyone like him and they cant think of anything to do at this stage they are just waiting to see if he pulls his socks up. But your adivse sounds so sound so I shall be putting these suggestions to them. I have just felt so overwhelmed with being told he is so naughty that although I actually deal with councilling other people for a living I have not been able to think this problem through. One of my concerns is that he is actually just a naughty boy and that it is all down to my parenting that he is having such a bad time at school, just feel very guilty. Thank you so very much for your advise I shall be using it all. I shall also be keeping my mothers instincts at the forefront as I believe he really does need some help and that he does have some issues that I need help with to. Thankyou again Sally
Thankyou so very very much for your reply. So much of what you have put is totally right. I shall definatly be asking for a multi-disciplinary team evalutation from the doctor. My little boy has only been at school for 3 weeks, but we have had problems at nursery for the last year and a bit. As you suggest about the dinner time thing, I did suggest that I collect him from school at lunchtime and return him in time for the bell but I dont think this is the right thing to do at this stage. We have over the last two days started the task of taking the TV treat away and trying to make the house a calm listening environment. What you said about the deaf issue is something I have been concerned about (so concerned I request a hearing test over 8 months ago), he has an appointment at the Audiology Department shortly, I am quite certain nothing is wrong with his hearing but he often seems to not hear us at all. We always have to repeat things several times and sometimes he even asks us to repeat things over and over.
His school is one of the top Church schools in the County and I have my concerns that although they care about him they would rather not have a child like my son on their books (or perhaps I am being paranoid). I have asked them what they suggest and what they can do to help him. The only thing they keep saying is they have never met anyone like him and they cant think of anything to do at this stage they are just waiting to see if he pulls his socks up. But your adivse sounds so sound so I shall be putting these suggestions to them. I have just felt so overwhelmed with being told he is so naughty that although I actually deal with councilling other people for a living I have not been able to think this problem through. One of my concerns is that he is actually just a naughty boy and that it is all down to my parenting that he is having such a bad time at school, just feel very guilty. Thank you so very much for your advise I shall be using it all. I shall also be keeping my mothers instincts at the forefront as I believe he really does need some help and that he does have some issues that I need help with to. Thankyou again Sally
My post was too long, I have to cut it in half!
Don't assume he is being naughty.
You talk about him not caring about the punishments given to him. Peer or social pressure would not make a difference to my son either. But he likes watching TV and movies. If I were to tell him that he wouldn't be able to watch TV he would be devastated.
I would recommend doing those changes first before looking at medications.
I am not anti medications, but the truth is that we don't know the long term effect of any of these drugs on our children and some of the side effects ie. tics etc, can be permanent.
I hope you do get some answers. When you go to the doctors ask for a multi-disciplinary team evaluation. This usually involves a Speech and Language Therapist, Educational Psychologist and other professionals as deemed necessary such as Occupational Therapist, Developmental Paediatrician etc.
Do you suspect that your child has any sensory differences. Does he have problems with loud noises, or is he a picky eater, does he appear deaf when you call his name, is he clumsy.
I'm not saying I think he is on the spectrum. But I remember that at the beginning of my 'journey', I didn't think my son was autistic either. Now when I look back and read the things I said about him I can see it is so obvious he is autistic. But I have learnt alot about autism since those early days. The difficulties they have can be much more subtle the more able they appear.
Don't assume he is being naughty.
You talk about him not caring about the punishments given to him. Peer or social pressure would not make a difference to my son either. But he likes watching TV and movies. If I were to tell him that he wouldn't be able to watch TV he would be devastated.
I would recommend doing those changes first before looking at medications.
I am not anti medications, but the truth is that we don't know the long term effect of any of these drugs on our children and some of the side effects ie. tics etc, can be permanent.
I hope you do get some answers. When you go to the doctors ask for a multi-disciplinary team evaluation. This usually involves a Speech and Language Therapist, Educational Psychologist and other professionals as deemed necessary such as Occupational Therapist, Developmental Paediatrician etc.
Do you suspect that your child has any sensory differences. Does he have problems with loud noises, or is he a picky eater, does he appear deaf when you call his name, is he clumsy.
I'm not saying I think he is on the spectrum. But I remember that at the beginning of my 'journey', I didn't think my son was autistic either. Now when I look back and read the things I said about him I can see it is so obvious he is autistic. But I have learnt alot about autism since those early days. The difficulties they have can be much more subtle the more able they appear.
Problems with social interaction such as you mention are common in ADHD and autism/aspergers. Don't automatically rule out being on the spectrum because he appears so able. There are many autistic/aspergers adults who run their own businesses, have professional jobs etc. But in social interactions they tend to want things all their own way, or to take control because they want to achieve a predictable outcome in the play. They don't know how to cope with imaginative games when other children are continuously changing the plot etc. They want to play a set game in a set way and want the other children to comply. This is because they find it hard to understand another child's point of view. The idea of sharing or taking turns can be difficult for them to master.
When social interaction doesn't work, you do tend to get tantrums, lashing out, hitting, biting etc.
The wanting to talk all the time, again is common in both ADHD and Aspergers. With Aspergers the child tends to want to talk about something that is of interest to them regardless of whether it is appropriate, or whether the other person is interested in the topic being talked about.
If he is having such difficulties at school, I would recommend looking at what supports, strategies, environmental changes could take place in school such as smaller classrooms, the use of the quiet room for him to calm down rather than run out, dinnertime clubs if that would be helpful rather than being let lose in the playground. But all these things need to be supported and understood by the school.
As he is in mainstream school I assume he is doing okay academically?
It is a bit concerning that 'they have never met another child like him before'. That is a big indicator that they may not know how to meet his needs.
You may need to look at another school that is more suitable for him.
I have just moved my son from one mainstream school to another that is enhanced resource for children on the spectrum. There has been a huge difference since day one. Now everyone automatically knows what we are talking about. When he gets upset they take him to the quiet room for 5 minutes and he is okay. In his previous school he would have been told off, which would make him worse! Then he would be in tears in front of the whole class. This lead to low self esteem and made him even more stubborn about not wanting to go to school and not wanting to comply with what anyone asked him.
When social interaction doesn't work, you do tend to get tantrums, lashing out, hitting, biting etc.
The wanting to talk all the time, again is common in both ADHD and Aspergers. With Aspergers the child tends to want to talk about something that is of interest to them regardless of whether it is appropriate, or whether the other person is interested in the topic being talked about.
If he is having such difficulties at school, I would recommend looking at what supports, strategies, environmental changes could take place in school such as smaller classrooms, the use of the quiet room for him to calm down rather than run out, dinnertime clubs if that would be helpful rather than being let lose in the playground. But all these things need to be supported and understood by the school.
As he is in mainstream school I assume he is doing okay academically?
It is a bit concerning that 'they have never met another child like him before'. That is a big indicator that they may not know how to meet his needs.
You may need to look at another school that is more suitable for him.
I have just moved my son from one mainstream school to another that is enhanced resource for children on the spectrum. There has been a huge difference since day one. Now everyone automatically knows what we are talking about. When he gets upset they take him to the quiet room for 5 minutes and he is okay. In his previous school he would have been told off, which would make him worse! Then he would be in tears in front of the whole class. This lead to low self esteem and made him even more stubborn about not wanting to go to school and not wanting to comply with what anyone asked him.
Hi Sally,
Thanks for your comments - after I posted i realised I had not actually said what I was trying to gain from this site. I was looking at the ADD/ADHD, Special Needs, Autisum sites because his teachers advised I did some research. I have read the Autisum lists and he does not seem to have the requirement for the Autisum spectrum. His development is normal (sometimes a bit higher than normal). I have made an appointment with our Doctor to discuss issues. He is in a mainstream school. He doesnt socialise well with other kids mainly because he always wants his own way and normally he responds by hitting them. At home is hard work as in always have to repeat things to him over and over and over again. I have a 14 yr old who showed no similar signs to him and neither has anyone else in the family. The naughty behaviour at school is always wanting the teachers attention and talking non stop. He runs of into the yard if he is challenged about his behaviour. He has in the last two days started pushing kids at school and even bit someone ! Or when he is put on time out at school he is not bothered - he is very forward thinking and just says well so what if I cant go out to play today I will go out tomorrow or next week ! Thankyou very much for your comments I am keeping fingers crossed for the Doctors appointment next week. Sorry if I posted in wrong place.
Thanks for your comments - after I posted i realised I had not actually said what I was trying to gain from this site. I was looking at the ADD/ADHD, Special Needs, Autisum sites because his teachers advised I did some research. I have read the Autisum lists and he does not seem to have the requirement for the Autisum spectrum. His development is normal (sometimes a bit higher than normal). I have made an appointment with our Doctor to discuss issues. He is in a mainstream school. He doesnt socialise well with other kids mainly because he always wants his own way and normally he responds by hitting them. At home is hard work as in always have to repeat things to him over and over and over again. I have a 14 yr old who showed no similar signs to him and neither has anyone else in the family. The naughty behaviour at school is always wanting the teachers attention and talking non stop. He runs of into the yard if he is challenged about his behaviour. He has in the last two days started pushing kids at school and even bit someone ! Or when he is put on time out at school he is not bothered - he is very forward thinking and just says well so what if I cant go out to play today I will go out tomorrow or next week ! Thankyou very much for your comments I am keeping fingers crossed for the Doctors appointment next week. Sorry if I posted in wrong place.
In he in special ed? Is he in a public or private school? If the teachers indicate they have never met anyone like him, this indicates to me that he may need alernative placement.
As you have come through on the autism forum, do you suspect he is on the autistic spectrum?
As you say there is a difference between his behaviour at home and school it would indicate that the difficulty lies in the school environment which may/may not be down to something else.
At home will he do as you ask him?
What is he like socialising with other children the same age as him.
What is his speech like. Did it develop normally or is he delayed at all.
Does he have any sensory issues eg. covers ears at noise, doesnt like clothes tags, problems with eating.
You say he seeks movement alot. Do you think this is to a level that you would call hyperactive. Is it all the time, or does it come and go?
Do you have any other relevant diagnosis within your immediate family such as autism, ADHD, development delay, dyslexia etc.
When you say he is being naughtly what exactly is he doing.
As you say there is a difference between his behaviour at home and school it would indicate that the difficulty lies in the school environment which may/may not be down to something else.
At home will he do as you ask him?
What is he like socialising with other children the same age as him.
What is his speech like. Did it develop normally or is he delayed at all.
Does he have any sensory issues eg. covers ears at noise, doesnt like clothes tags, problems with eating.
You say he seeks movement alot. Do you think this is to a level that you would call hyperactive. Is it all the time, or does it come and go?
Do you have any other relevant diagnosis within your immediate family such as autism, ADHD, development delay, dyslexia etc.
When you say he is being naughtly what exactly is he doing.
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