Aa
st John's Wort again and again
Apart from bringing mania and/or interacting with some AC's, does any one know the inapplicability of the plant extract to BP specially.
The reason is that all the AD's I use eventually drive me manic. I know why, because i am not on a strong MS. I wish i stay i.e. remain like this, though except it's the AD which needs a change. The pharmacist says it has no side effects. This is expected because nobody knows what is BP like. Also it's produced locally, so its brochure says the same. One pdoc told me it has side effects, of course it has, aspirin does too.
Pls I need a RIGOROUS proof that it should not be used for BP. It has been used for centuries for mild to moderate depression.
I am relying on your kindness to tell me something concrete rather than rumours about it.
thx
The reason is that all the AD's I use eventually drive me manic. I know why, because i am not on a strong MS. I wish i stay i.e. remain like this, though except it's the AD which needs a change. The pharmacist says it has no side effects. This is expected because nobody knows what is BP like. Also it's produced locally, so its brochure says the same. One pdoc told me it has side effects, of course it has, aspirin does too.
Pls I need a RIGOROUS proof that it should not be used for BP. It has been used for centuries for mild to moderate depression.
I am relying on your kindness to tell me something concrete rather than rumours about it.
thx
What are the exact liver enzymes should be test prior intiating VALDOXAN???
Can any expert advice
Can any expert advice
I think that Eastern philosophy is helpful; meditation and yoga are great for me and for others. Acupuncture has also shown to be helpful to a lot of folks. People that use them in conjunction with their medications, talk therapy and a healthy lifestyle are really using all of the tools available and that's great.
I have just always been on my heals with herbal supplements; I used a lot of them when I was undiagnosed with mental illness and was told that they were all safe because they're 'natural'. They all caused me serious problems; my use SJW, along with HTP and ephedra ten years ago spurred me into a bad state. I was using them as fitness supplements along with a good diet. My GP put me on Wellbutrin for it and the medication drove me out of my head. I had a psychotic break that manifested itself in delusional paranoia and I was lucky to get out of the hospital.
I am glad that you're straying away from the SJW; it just has a bad reputation. But, as I said, there are other great herbals out there that help out immensely. I would really look into the melatonin; it's a great one. To be honest with you, I hate taking Seroquel to sleep because it actually increases my depression the next day; even 12.5 mgs will do that to me. I go with my melatonin and Neurontin, if that doesn't work, I take another melatonin. If that doesn't get me to sleep, I use Lunesta. Look into the studies pertaining to the Circadian sleep cycle and mental illness; it's very, very convincing stuff.
I have just always been on my heals with herbal supplements; I used a lot of them when I was undiagnosed with mental illness and was told that they were all safe because they're 'natural'. They all caused me serious problems; my use SJW, along with HTP and ephedra ten years ago spurred me into a bad state. I was using them as fitness supplements along with a good diet. My GP put me on Wellbutrin for it and the medication drove me out of my head. I had a psychotic break that manifested itself in delusional paranoia and I was lucky to get out of the hospital.
I am glad that you're straying away from the SJW; it just has a bad reputation. But, as I said, there are other great herbals out there that help out immensely. I would really look into the melatonin; it's a great one. To be honest with you, I hate taking Seroquel to sleep because it actually increases my depression the next day; even 12.5 mgs will do that to me. I go with my melatonin and Neurontin, if that doesn't work, I take another melatonin. If that doesn't get me to sleep, I use Lunesta. Look into the studies pertaining to the Circadian sleep cycle and mental illness; it's very, very convincing stuff.
final word. I read somewhere don't remember now a new opinion saying acapuncture can help in depression. I mean the old civilization Indian or chinese must have had something since BP is old, don't you think so. I mean not herbal supllements and the like, also not yoga, who knows.
I remember when i first fell ill and my parents saw the horror of my mixed states, they thought the devil frequenrted me and thought of an exorcist right away. Although both are well educated and universitry professors but mixed states is mixed states. you become a different person, thanks to seroquel
you convinced me anyway to stay away from S.J.W
I remember when i first fell ill and my parents saw the horror of my mixed states, they thought the devil frequenrted me and thought of an exorcist right away. Although both are well educated and universitry professors but mixed states is mixed states. you become a different person, thanks to seroquel
you convinced me anyway to stay away from S.J.W
Lamictal is approved for BP depression, as well as mixed episodes and it's a very good medication. It's becoming the front-line medication for BP disorder more and more. It is a good all around mood stabilizer, especially if you swing towards depression. Now, you may already know this, but the Steven Johnson Syndrome rash is a concern. However, when you look into the studies; it isn't anywhere near as prevalent as the public thinks. There were all kinds of complicating factors in the initial trials; people were on Depakote along with it, they were increasing the dose too fast, they were taking too much, etc..etc.. Out patient trials have put the chance of the rash at around 1/55,000 people and even money says that's a very high estimate.
Also, bear in mind, that just because a medication is approved for one side of the BP spectrum or the other, it doesn't mean that it doesn't work on both.
And, honestly, if something isn't working, it isn't working. Whether it's just not helping or causing problems; it doesn't matter. I had a hard time wrapping my head around this when taking an AD because docs kept telling me to give it time.. So, I went through h-ll for five months while they tinkered with it. It exacerbated the BP swings and the mixed episodes I had on it were terrible.. But, I was h-ll-bent on sticking with it and so was my shrink.
But, back to the original post; I would stay away from St. John's Wort. But, if you want to give it a try, go for it. But, just be very aware of the issues that it can cause. Remember; ephedra has been used for thousands of years too and it's basically not legal in most of the Western world.
I have a friend that went down the homeopathic route, using various herbal supplements given to her by the care provider. She paid for it dearly, they started to make her manic, lost her judgment and took herself off of all of her medications. It didn't end up well; she killed herself. So, again, be very careful with herbal supplements; they can be dangerous.
I believe that Eastern philosophy and medicine can be beneficial for the general population, but I think they are poison for BP folks. And, again, my opinion is based on my own experience several years ago. And, I have had the some problems with ADs as you have. If I were to give St. John's Wort a try, I'd have my Ativan on hand.
Also, bear in mind, that just because a medication is approved for one side of the BP spectrum or the other, it doesn't mean that it doesn't work on both.
And, honestly, if something isn't working, it isn't working. Whether it's just not helping or causing problems; it doesn't matter. I had a hard time wrapping my head around this when taking an AD because docs kept telling me to give it time.. So, I went through h-ll for five months while they tinkered with it. It exacerbated the BP swings and the mixed episodes I had on it were terrible.. But, I was h-ll-bent on sticking with it and so was my shrink.
But, back to the original post; I would stay away from St. John's Wort. But, if you want to give it a try, go for it. But, just be very aware of the issues that it can cause. Remember; ephedra has been used for thousands of years too and it's basically not legal in most of the Western world.
I have a friend that went down the homeopathic route, using various herbal supplements given to her by the care provider. She paid for it dearly, they started to make her manic, lost her judgment and took herself off of all of her medications. It didn't end up well; she killed herself. So, again, be very careful with herbal supplements; they can be dangerous.
I believe that Eastern philosophy and medicine can be beneficial for the general population, but I think they are poison for BP folks. And, again, my opinion is based on my own experience several years ago. And, I have had the some problems with ADs as you have. If I were to give St. John's Wort a try, I'd have my Ativan on hand.
As to the depression, HOW DO YOU INTEND TO LIFT IT ?? to be truthful adel I'm sorry, I don't know. I have personally gone as far as I can with the seroquel, and although it has helped me noticably to increase the dose it has not been the 'magic bullet' I had been waiting for in terms of lifting the depression.
Adel I wish I could tell you there is an antidepressant out there for people with bipolar that does not interact with other medicines, has no side effects or long term risk, AND doesn't send you into mania, but as far as I am aware there isn't. I have also done my homework in vain hoping that I would come accross something like that but I haven't.
What I can say is that when I do see the pdoc in a week and a bit I will be asking him the same questions that you have been asking about antidepressants, and I will be asking what other choices I have in lifting the depression in AC's or APs. If I decide to go down the antidepressant route I will make sure I have an adequate mood stabiliser as well and hope for the best.
I will share with you the answers I get adel, Perhaps I can be of more help to you that way. Would you please do the same for me when you see your pdoc?
Best of luck :-)
Adel I wish I could tell you there is an antidepressant out there for people with bipolar that does not interact with other medicines, has no side effects or long term risk, AND doesn't send you into mania, but as far as I am aware there isn't. I have also done my homework in vain hoping that I would come accross something like that but I haven't.
What I can say is that when I do see the pdoc in a week and a bit I will be asking him the same questions that you have been asking about antidepressants, and I will be asking what other choices I have in lifting the depression in AC's or APs. If I decide to go down the antidepressant route I will make sure I have an adequate mood stabiliser as well and hope for the best.
I will share with you the answers I get adel, Perhaps I can be of more help to you that way. Would you please do the same for me when you see your pdoc?
Best of luck :-)
i checked the official site of valdoxan
http://www.valdoxan.com/index.php/valdoxan-in-practice/#
it says liver problems (The big danger with this drug is that it can impact your liver, If you do get it prescribed, make sure you get your liver checked every six weeks for the first few months)
again it isn't specific to BP rather major depression
http://www.valdoxan.com/index.php/valdoxan-in-practice/#
it says liver problems (The big danger with this drug is that it can impact your liver, If you do get it prescribed, make sure you get your liver checked every six weeks for the first few months)
again it isn't specific to BP rather major depression
i am sorry it seems <> meaning a dirty word whereas i should have used inverted commas, i was only quoting you when you said:
For example when I took 100mg seroquel if sedated me without touching the depression or psychotic symptoms and it wasn't until it was raised to 400mg that it started to work as a mood stabiliser, and even then the depression persisted.
For example when I took 100mg seroquel if sedated me without touching the depression or psychotic symptoms and it wasn't until it was raised to 400mg that it started to work as a mood stabiliser, and even then the depression persisted.
OK your posts are informative. I knew about all these damn drugs and their classification but how they function exactly !! so many thanks
Now 1st starbunny: you said:
<<>>
so in fact still you have depression even though you upped the seroquel and that's my theory, AP's are only there to stop the mania not to regulate your mood contrary to what pdocs say about olanzapine and the others that they are MS. seroquel is a God send for me to stop cycling as well my mixed states but as soon as i increase the dose i become lethargic (mood doesn't worsen though) but can't think that by increasing it more, a turn over will occur. So there remains the depression. HOW DO YOU INTEND TO LIFT IT ?? Again i was happy to hear about agomelatin (valdoxan) by Servier because it's the same company which produces my current AD (stablon/coaxil) I shall ask about it.
Now bpchrisb:
my problem is not in how to sleep well, seroquel does this task. ok i wake up not very fresh but the problem is mainly how to wake up. I am exhausted have depression and my mood is low.
concerning MS in general, either lithium which is considered the only MS or the 1st line MS like they say and whether the AC's like lamictal, depakote, tegretol, etc... which are mainly antiepileptic contrary to lithium and work off-label all of them have serious side effects, only gapapentin/neurontin has the least side effects, true, yet it's weaker than the first group. it's also very good for anxiety. however STILL what about depression. To put it differently. If you use any of the above DON'T you need along them some AD's. I think you do. In this forum there is a nice chap called monkeyc who is on lithium, and all the books, medical guides, say lithium is good for depression too. I don't believe it (who is me to believe it or not) i am only a nothing living in an underdeveloped country how can I disagree with the medical circle. Yet i don't agree why because you have to study history, BP pts were put in asylum to isolate them from hurting others, thus to stop them from being manic, SO the 3 musqueteers (tegretol, lithium, depakote) are there to stop mania only. TRUE they can postpone the "chute i.e. fall or crash" but eventually you will need an AD. So i waited to see and eventually monkeyc took effexor and it was hell stayed in hospital for withdrawal. So why taking the risk.
So you see i am at loss in brief. Not knowing how to choose my next step.
However it occurred to me, if there is some 1% of BP worldwide, it's a huge percentage still. SURE they have come up with a solution unless they live in mental wards. You only encounter a few here. Medhelp is not an amusement for us, we try to make use of other's experience. True some come and go, the ones who left it means they are well now, some return after a while though !!!
many thanks
Now 1st starbunny: you said:
<<>>
so in fact still you have depression even though you upped the seroquel and that's my theory, AP's are only there to stop the mania not to regulate your mood contrary to what pdocs say about olanzapine and the others that they are MS. seroquel is a God send for me to stop cycling as well my mixed states but as soon as i increase the dose i become lethargic (mood doesn't worsen though) but can't think that by increasing it more, a turn over will occur. So there remains the depression. HOW DO YOU INTEND TO LIFT IT ?? Again i was happy to hear about agomelatin (valdoxan) by Servier because it's the same company which produces my current AD (stablon/coaxil) I shall ask about it.
Now bpchrisb:
my problem is not in how to sleep well, seroquel does this task. ok i wake up not very fresh but the problem is mainly how to wake up. I am exhausted have depression and my mood is low.
concerning MS in general, either lithium which is considered the only MS or the 1st line MS like they say and whether the AC's like lamictal, depakote, tegretol, etc... which are mainly antiepileptic contrary to lithium and work off-label all of them have serious side effects, only gapapentin/neurontin has the least side effects, true, yet it's weaker than the first group. it's also very good for anxiety. however STILL what about depression. To put it differently. If you use any of the above DON'T you need along them some AD's. I think you do. In this forum there is a nice chap called monkeyc who is on lithium, and all the books, medical guides, say lithium is good for depression too. I don't believe it (who is me to believe it or not) i am only a nothing living in an underdeveloped country how can I disagree with the medical circle. Yet i don't agree why because you have to study history, BP pts were put in asylum to isolate them from hurting others, thus to stop them from being manic, SO the 3 musqueteers (tegretol, lithium, depakote) are there to stop mania only. TRUE they can postpone the "chute i.e. fall or crash" but eventually you will need an AD. So i waited to see and eventually monkeyc took effexor and it was hell stayed in hospital for withdrawal. So why taking the risk.
So you see i am at loss in brief. Not knowing how to choose my next step.
However it occurred to me, if there is some 1% of BP worldwide, it's a huge percentage still. SURE they have come up with a solution unless they live in mental wards. You only encounter a few here. Medhelp is not an amusement for us, we try to make use of other's experience. True some come and go, the ones who left it means they are well now, some return after a while though !!!
many thanks
Try Neurontin first, pregabalin isn't just more potent; it's wayyyy more potent. It's sold in the states as Lyrica and I gave it a try; it made me very dizzy and very clumsy. Plus, it made my depression worse. Give the Neurontin a try first.
Okay, here's going to be a long one.. Lol. Unfortunately, I now too much about the medications and about neurophysiology; given my education background in physiology and my own interest in pharmacology. It drives my shrink nuts sometimes, but, I am an informed consumer. Here's the deal with the myriad of medications known as mood-stabilizers. They may be called 'mood stabilizers', but on a neurophysiology level, they're not.
1. Anti-convulsants: Lithium, Depakote, Lamictalm Neurontin, etc.. These are all true mood stabilizers because they truly stabilize the neuronal firing. They work on the neuronal axon themselves and make the firing of the neurons more efficient. Generally speaking, they regulate all of the neurotransmitters, where as other medications have an affinity for specific receptor sites within the synaptic cleft.
2. Antidepressants: These medications work to increase the natural level of a specific neurotransmitter by either blocking their reuptake in the synaptic cleft or by inhibiting the enzymes that break them down. Now, some, like Cymbalta block the reuptake of serotonin and nor-epinephrine. Others, like Wellbutrin, block the reuptake of dopamine. MAOIs, work inhibiting the breakdown of all kinds of neurotransmitters; but, these are the 'dirty' ADs. They're not in favor anymore of the SEs. I don't know anything about tricyclics, so I won't comment. But, either way, these medications have a more profound affect one or two neurotransmitters than anticoncvulsants do and, as such, if you're BP, they can cause an increase in mood swings. Now, if you're not BP, these do stabilize your mood, because, for whatever reason, your brain isn't getting a big enough dose of that neurotransmitter or is getting too much of it. Essentially, with BP folks; we have a deficiency or a surplus of these neurotransmitters, but it changes on us. This is why the ADs can kick people into mania; we have too much serotonin floating around and then we increase the amount of it floating around in the synaptic cleft.
3. Antipsychotics: Seroquel, Zyprexa, Abilify, etc.. These medications DIRECTLY bind to serotonin and dopamine receptor sites and elicit a response. Essentially you're getting a dose of your own neurotransmitters, on top of the what the medication is doing. These are heavy hitters; they stabilize your mood because they drastically affect the firing of the neurons. They essentially drill you between the teeth; that's why Seroquel makes you so drowsy. They do stabilize mood, but, again, it's because they're eliciting a big response from the neurons. Now, this isn't a bad thing; they work very well for a lot of BP folks. It isn't like an AD because they directly bind to the site and antagonize them. Serotonin is an upper and a downer (rolled into one) with one's mood; you nail those sites hard enough and it'll even you out..
As far as the sleep cycle thing goes; BP folks HAVE to regulate their sleep cycle. There's a ton of studies out there about it; many doctors think that it's one of the biggest issues with being BP. And, this is where melatonin comes in. Again, it regulates your sleep cycle; it doesn't just put you out. There's a prescription version of melatonin out there that has been researched, but why bother paying for a script (it's pricey) when you can take a small dose of the over the counter stuff and get the same response. Let me tell you, it's the biggest weapon I have against my BP disorder; it helps to keep me evened out. I tried all of the other sleep aids out there and they put me down, but it wasn't good sleep for me. I might as well have pounded back a few beers. Again, with the melatonin, I sleep through the night (I can't even do that with Seroquel) and I wake up feeling good.
Neurontin isn't a bad medication, in fact, I recommend it. It's very mild, but it helps with anxiety and mania. Yes, you do have to increase the dose of it over time, but you can tinker around with that too. When I start to adapt to a dose, my shrink just drops me down by 400mgs for a day or so (no withdrawals, whatsoever) and then increases is back to the original dose. It works like a charm. There was a point where the pharmacy messed up and I couldn't get my Neurontin for a two days. I felt a little more anxious, but it wasn't serious. As soon as I got back on the medication, it was like I had started over completely with it. At the very least, taking it with melatonin is a great sleep aid for me. If I'm having a hard time falling asleep with the melatonin, I take a Neurontin and it helps. I don't pass out, I just get drowsy.
1. Anti-convulsants: Lithium, Depakote, Lamictalm Neurontin, etc.. These are all true mood stabilizers because they truly stabilize the neuronal firing. They work on the neuronal axon themselves and make the firing of the neurons more efficient. Generally speaking, they regulate all of the neurotransmitters, where as other medications have an affinity for specific receptor sites within the synaptic cleft.
2. Antidepressants: These medications work to increase the natural level of a specific neurotransmitter by either blocking their reuptake in the synaptic cleft or by inhibiting the enzymes that break them down. Now, some, like Cymbalta block the reuptake of serotonin and nor-epinephrine. Others, like Wellbutrin, block the reuptake of dopamine. MAOIs, work inhibiting the breakdown of all kinds of neurotransmitters; but, these are the 'dirty' ADs. They're not in favor anymore of the SEs. I don't know anything about tricyclics, so I won't comment. But, either way, these medications have a more profound affect one or two neurotransmitters than anticoncvulsants do and, as such, if you're BP, they can cause an increase in mood swings. Now, if you're not BP, these do stabilize your mood, because, for whatever reason, your brain isn't getting a big enough dose of that neurotransmitter or is getting too much of it. Essentially, with BP folks; we have a deficiency or a surplus of these neurotransmitters, but it changes on us. This is why the ADs can kick people into mania; we have too much serotonin floating around and then we increase the amount of it floating around in the synaptic cleft.
3. Antipsychotics: Seroquel, Zyprexa, Abilify, etc.. These medications DIRECTLY bind to serotonin and dopamine receptor sites and elicit a response. Essentially you're getting a dose of your own neurotransmitters, on top of the what the medication is doing. These are heavy hitters; they stabilize your mood because they drastically affect the firing of the neurons. They essentially drill you between the teeth; that's why Seroquel makes you so drowsy. They do stabilize mood, but, again, it's because they're eliciting a big response from the neurons. Now, this isn't a bad thing; they work very well for a lot of BP folks. It isn't like an AD because they directly bind to the site and antagonize them. Serotonin is an upper and a downer (rolled into one) with one's mood; you nail those sites hard enough and it'll even you out..
As far as the sleep cycle thing goes; BP folks HAVE to regulate their sleep cycle. There's a ton of studies out there about it; many doctors think that it's one of the biggest issues with being BP. And, this is where melatonin comes in. Again, it regulates your sleep cycle; it doesn't just put you out. There's a prescription version of melatonin out there that has been researched, but why bother paying for a script (it's pricey) when you can take a small dose of the over the counter stuff and get the same response. Let me tell you, it's the biggest weapon I have against my BP disorder; it helps to keep me evened out. I tried all of the other sleep aids out there and they put me down, but it wasn't good sleep for me. I might as well have pounded back a few beers. Again, with the melatonin, I sleep through the night (I can't even do that with Seroquel) and I wake up feeling good.
Neurontin isn't a bad medication, in fact, I recommend it. It's very mild, but it helps with anxiety and mania. Yes, you do have to increase the dose of it over time, but you can tinker around with that too. When I start to adapt to a dose, my shrink just drops me down by 400mgs for a day or so (no withdrawals, whatsoever) and then increases is back to the original dose. It works like a charm. There was a point where the pharmacy messed up and I couldn't get my Neurontin for a two days. I felt a little more anxious, but it wasn't serious. As soon as I got back on the medication, it was like I had started over completely with it. At the very least, taking it with melatonin is a great sleep aid for me. If I'm having a hard time falling asleep with the melatonin, I take a Neurontin and it helps. I don't pass out, I just get drowsy.
Wow I had no idea about the melatonin blood tests, it is interesting what bpchrisb said about the valerian and melatonin. I support what he said about the valerian being safe, (for me anyway) I have used it several times and it has a mild sedating effect and could be used as a sleep aid (no mania).
Melatonin I have not tried but it is interesting that one of the newest and currently only melatonergic antidepressant available called agomelatin (valdoxan) by servier works by being a potent agonist at melatonin receptors.
It is also interesting bpchrisb that you find neurontin helpful, because my doctor recently suggested pregabalin which is it's more potent successor, and I am going to discuss this with the pdoc at my mext appointment.
Subtherapeutic doses are fine if they work for you adel there is no need to change! The reason I increased was because I felt I wasn't getting the full benefits. I understand your need to be cautious with medication changes and if you are forced to go 'trial and error' it is only natural you want the odds to be on your side.
Let me know how you get on!
Melatonin I have not tried but it is interesting that one of the newest and currently only melatonergic antidepressant available called agomelatin (valdoxan) by servier works by being a potent agonist at melatonin receptors.
It is also interesting bpchrisb that you find neurontin helpful, because my doctor recently suggested pregabalin which is it's more potent successor, and I am going to discuss this with the pdoc at my mext appointment.
Subtherapeutic doses are fine if they work for you adel there is no need to change! The reason I increased was because I felt I wasn't getting the full benefits. I understand your need to be cautious with medication changes and if you are forced to go 'trial and error' it is only natural you want the odds to be on your side.
Let me know how you get on!
incidentally, is there a blood test to check the ammount of secretion of melatonin by the pirenial gland. it's said its sold on the shelves without prescription like st john's wort i suppose
ok i read abt melatonin, it's interesting what is in the wikipedia. at least i shall spend time doing some homework.
OK
thanks for you.
about MS the word itself is vague. Some consider AD's mood stabilizers. It's crazy but true. AP's like abilify and seroquel are spoken about as mood stabilizer, so it isn't only the AC's and lithium. In short no common decision about what can be classified as MS and what that doesn't, except the tranquilizers, even them are sort of.'
neurontin (gabapentin) is considered one of the safest, true but is weak and some said it works well in the beginning then cause anxiety. Of course it may for some and not for others. So no use in saying this med is good or bad like these questions that pop up in the forum asking whether such and such is good or not. It depends on the individual.
However your post is very useful, because here now a neurologist rather than a pdoc who advised to stay away from S.J.W.
Now melatonin i heard about many times in this forum but i know nothing about it, so i shall look into it. But outside sleep cycle what can it offer for BP, that's the important thing. also valerian root I know nothing abt either. So i shall try to read abt them. But you said you found them the safest but then you added (for you) which means out of experience only or it's common fact. Again suppose you use them to get fresh in the morning, what about depression or you don't get it, because that is the big issue. In my view, if there is no depression, then there is no bipolarity, because you don't need to go into the cycle of AD->mania->AP->depression->....
Finally suppose i past the AD, what MS shall i deploy, lithium, or AC's or what then spend months of frustration, trial and error, and spend the night addressing forums and reading of the side effects. Last week, I did a CBC, liver enzymes tests (AST,ALT) , ESR, and found to my great surprize that all are norma,l meaning my drugs are safe: risperidone 1mg, seroquel 50mg, AD (smallest dose), I know all are subtherapeutic, it's like i am leaning on the wall to walk but this is instead of trying to run while being crippled.
Thank you so much for your post you and starbunny
thanks for you.
about MS the word itself is vague. Some consider AD's mood stabilizers. It's crazy but true. AP's like abilify and seroquel are spoken about as mood stabilizer, so it isn't only the AC's and lithium. In short no common decision about what can be classified as MS and what that doesn't, except the tranquilizers, even them are sort of.'
neurontin (gabapentin) is considered one of the safest, true but is weak and some said it works well in the beginning then cause anxiety. Of course it may for some and not for others. So no use in saying this med is good or bad like these questions that pop up in the forum asking whether such and such is good or not. It depends on the individual.
However your post is very useful, because here now a neurologist rather than a pdoc who advised to stay away from S.J.W.
Now melatonin i heard about many times in this forum but i know nothing about it, so i shall look into it. But outside sleep cycle what can it offer for BP, that's the important thing. also valerian root I know nothing abt either. So i shall try to read abt them. But you said you found them the safest but then you added (for you) which means out of experience only or it's common fact. Again suppose you use them to get fresh in the morning, what about depression or you don't get it, because that is the big issue. In my view, if there is no depression, then there is no bipolarity, because you don't need to go into the cycle of AD->mania->AP->depression->....
Finally suppose i past the AD, what MS shall i deploy, lithium, or AC's or what then spend months of frustration, trial and error, and spend the night addressing forums and reading of the side effects. Last week, I did a CBC, liver enzymes tests (AST,ALT) , ESR, and found to my great surprize that all are norma,l meaning my drugs are safe: risperidone 1mg, seroquel 50mg, AD (smallest dose), I know all are subtherapeutic, it's like i am leaning on the wall to walk but this is instead of trying to run while being crippled.
Thank you so much for your post you and starbunny
I can't site any specific evidence with respect to St. John's Wort and BP disorder, but I did see a neurologist that said to stay away from it.
I had my own experience with St. John's Wort several years ago. I was taking in vitamin supplement; it had high doses of St. John's Wort in it. It made me euphoric (hypomanic- but wasn't diagnosed), and it also started to throw my moods around. When I quit it, it caused even more issues.
The problems with herbal supplements is that they aren't regularly researched because there is very little funding for it. The pharmaceutical companies have no use or them, for obvious reasons, so they don't fund studies. The major universities don't touch them much either; outside of ephedra.. And they didn't start looking into that herbal supplement until professional athletes started dying. And, even then, studies at major Ivy League institutions came back and said that ephedra was safe for weight loss, in short term usage.. So, it is really hit and miss.
In my case, the only herbal supplements that I have found to be safe (for me) are melatonin and Valerian root. The melatonin might be something to look into, if you haven't already as it helps to regulate your Circadian sleep cycle. Your body ups melatonin as night, decreases serotonin and vice versa. Honestly, I have been on every sleep aid out there; Lunesta, Ambien, Trazadone, etc... None of them regulated my sleep cycle and made things worse for me.. Neurontin and melatonin are absolutely the best for me. I sleep eight hours, wake up refreshed, and ready to go. With the other medications, I would wake up depressed because my sleep was off and it would cause me to cycle again.
I will echo the suggestions of other folks around here; take a closer look into mood stabilizers and past the ADs. I haven't found a single BP person that hasn't had some kind of trouble with one AD or another. But, you know your body and your moods, so keep in touch with your pdoc and go from there.
I had my own experience with St. John's Wort several years ago. I was taking in vitamin supplement; it had high doses of St. John's Wort in it. It made me euphoric (hypomanic- but wasn't diagnosed), and it also started to throw my moods around. When I quit it, it caused even more issues.
The problems with herbal supplements is that they aren't regularly researched because there is very little funding for it. The pharmaceutical companies have no use or them, for obvious reasons, so they don't fund studies. The major universities don't touch them much either; outside of ephedra.. And they didn't start looking into that herbal supplement until professional athletes started dying. And, even then, studies at major Ivy League institutions came back and said that ephedra was safe for weight loss, in short term usage.. So, it is really hit and miss.
In my case, the only herbal supplements that I have found to be safe (for me) are melatonin and Valerian root. The melatonin might be something to look into, if you haven't already as it helps to regulate your Circadian sleep cycle. Your body ups melatonin as night, decreases serotonin and vice versa. Honestly, I have been on every sleep aid out there; Lunesta, Ambien, Trazadone, etc... None of them regulated my sleep cycle and made things worse for me.. Neurontin and melatonin are absolutely the best for me. I sleep eight hours, wake up refreshed, and ready to go. With the other medications, I would wake up depressed because my sleep was off and it would cause me to cycle again.
I will echo the suggestions of other folks around here; take a closer look into mood stabilizers and past the ADs. I haven't found a single BP person that hasn't had some kind of trouble with one AD or another. But, you know your body and your moods, so keep in touch with your pdoc and go from there.
it's very kind of you to spare such a long time to write this letter to me.
The no of persons in this forum with BP are counted on the finger, does this mean the others don't know this forum or that perhaps have found ways to get stable.
as to my dose it is subtherapeutic indeed but i can't tolerate higher doses. pdocs tell me there is no such thing as therapeutic it depends on the person. i take 50mg seroquel and keeps me lethargic and doesn't remove depression. i can't understand why a 400mg will do the trick
as to the AC's i tried tegretol and lamictal, the 1st gave me headaches and te 2nd kind of seizure. I feel not at ease with the drugs in general, feeling drowsy and numb and want to vomit, i.e. in short don't tolerate them.
as to seroquel helping in depression, i don't believe it based on my experience irrespective to what astra zenica says. true all atypical do not worsen mania but don't help in depression either from the very definition of antimanic.
than you. i shall try to see a pdoc tonight
The no of persons in this forum with BP are counted on the finger, does this mean the others don't know this forum or that perhaps have found ways to get stable.
as to my dose it is subtherapeutic indeed but i can't tolerate higher doses. pdocs tell me there is no such thing as therapeutic it depends on the person. i take 50mg seroquel and keeps me lethargic and doesn't remove depression. i can't understand why a 400mg will do the trick
as to the AC's i tried tegretol and lamictal, the 1st gave me headaches and te 2nd kind of seizure. I feel not at ease with the drugs in general, feeling drowsy and numb and want to vomit, i.e. in short don't tolerate them.
as to seroquel helping in depression, i don't believe it based on my experience irrespective to what astra zenica says. true all atypical do not worsen mania but don't help in depression either from the very definition of antimanic.
than you. i shall try to see a pdoc tonight
Bipolar depression is a £$%^&&^% !! and combined with rapid cycling can be difficult to treat. This is because it represents a 'moving target'. From what you say, you are sensitive to the effects of antidepressants and find that they eventually cause you to cycle. I also find antidepressants difficult to tolerate for the same reason - and have tried at least ten different types throughout the years. It poses a real dilemma of what to do for the best.
It sounds like you really need a good mood stabiliser to anchor you first before trying any more. Have you checked the dosage of your current medication to see if you are on a therapeutic level? Do you need to raise the dose? For example when I took 100mg seroquel if sedated me without touching the depression or psychotic symptoms and it wasn't until it was raised to 400mg that it started to work as a mood stabiliser, and even then the depression persisted.
You tell me your depression is mild, adel but if you are having thoughts where you feel you wish to die then that gives me the feeling that it is more serious than you think, and needs to be addressed as such. Try not to dwell on the long term risks of taking medication, perhaps it is better to weigh it up against the short term risk of harm which may be greater?
I can identify with your frustrations because I am in a similar situation. I am hoping a change of AP or additional AC will do the trick so I won't have to add an antidepressant. I really wish you well with this one adel, and I am so sorry you are suffering. I'm sure that you will eventually find a way to slow the cycling and stabilise your mood -you just need to find some inner strength to keep going right now, I find it helps to break it down to get through each day at a time, hour, or even minute at a time when it gets really bad, and of course posting here helps too! take care
It sounds like you really need a good mood stabiliser to anchor you first before trying any more. Have you checked the dosage of your current medication to see if you are on a therapeutic level? Do you need to raise the dose? For example when I took 100mg seroquel if sedated me without touching the depression or psychotic symptoms and it wasn't until it was raised to 400mg that it started to work as a mood stabiliser, and even then the depression persisted.
You tell me your depression is mild, adel but if you are having thoughts where you feel you wish to die then that gives me the feeling that it is more serious than you think, and needs to be addressed as such. Try not to dwell on the long term risks of taking medication, perhaps it is better to weigh it up against the short term risk of harm which may be greater?
I can identify with your frustrations because I am in a similar situation. I am hoping a change of AP or additional AC will do the trick so I won't have to add an antidepressant. I really wish you well with this one adel, and I am so sorry you are suffering. I'm sure that you will eventually find a way to slow the cycling and stabilise your mood -you just need to find some inner strength to keep going right now, I find it helps to break it down to get through each day at a time, hour, or even minute at a time when it gets really bad, and of course posting here helps too! take care
Thank you. your post is very clear
the thing is my depression is mild so i thought it will help me. the slightest AD sent me into mania. Each time i try a new AD, it's ok at the beginning, then i face its complications. I know the list of AD's is long, but i tried at least a quarter of it, my last one they said very mild and here in egypt people take it like water, it's called stablon/coaxil from a french farm. This time it lasted with me for 8 months the longest period, but eventually i started to cycle and mixed states, you understand the reason now. Of course i can have patience and try to exhaust the list first, but i don't believe i will find one void of any complications. an AD is just unsuitable to BP.
The mistake was mine, i was on an AP together with an AD (tricyclic) for 6 years and life was ok, until i decided to stop the meds. I lifted the AP and after 3 months i got my 1st mania, so the radar finally located my BP because prior to this date i was classified OCD. Since then life became difficult in fact very difficult. I started to have mixed states the ups and lows often,... You hear from pdocs that OCD turn into BP, others say either you have affective disorder or not. All the confusion I heard and none really convinced me till now. All i know starting from 2006 my life has become hell. OK i have to accept the new fact. the classical meds are mood stabilizers. Although you read that lithium is safe with some, you encounter people having serious problems. valporex causes liver problems, all of them with no exception. Usually at the beginning you don't feel the issue but only after 10 years or so that the MS cause problems. in my drawrs I keep the british medical health guide as well as the american one, i read and i read but in vain. Yet all agree that lithium is the 1st line mood stabilizer for many reasons one is historical, usually the new trend is to give antipsychotics 1st until you reach stabilization then you switch to lithium. One new trend says lithium + abilify but no 2 pdocs agree on the same meds neither the doses. Perhaps after a few decades that they can find something. The pharm comp in order to spend money on research it has to be rewarding, 1% of the population is not enough. However 50% women warrants spending on cosmetics.
I have given up really, and i have to admit that i shall have to suffer the rest of my life, most of the time my wish is to die.
thank you anyway
the thing is my depression is mild so i thought it will help me. the slightest AD sent me into mania. Each time i try a new AD, it's ok at the beginning, then i face its complications. I know the list of AD's is long, but i tried at least a quarter of it, my last one they said very mild and here in egypt people take it like water, it's called stablon/coaxil from a french farm. This time it lasted with me for 8 months the longest period, but eventually i started to cycle and mixed states, you understand the reason now. Of course i can have patience and try to exhaust the list first, but i don't believe i will find one void of any complications. an AD is just unsuitable to BP.
The mistake was mine, i was on an AP together with an AD (tricyclic) for 6 years and life was ok, until i decided to stop the meds. I lifted the AP and after 3 months i got my 1st mania, so the radar finally located my BP because prior to this date i was classified OCD. Since then life became difficult in fact very difficult. I started to have mixed states the ups and lows often,... You hear from pdocs that OCD turn into BP, others say either you have affective disorder or not. All the confusion I heard and none really convinced me till now. All i know starting from 2006 my life has become hell. OK i have to accept the new fact. the classical meds are mood stabilizers. Although you read that lithium is safe with some, you encounter people having serious problems. valporex causes liver problems, all of them with no exception. Usually at the beginning you don't feel the issue but only after 10 years or so that the MS cause problems. in my drawrs I keep the british medical health guide as well as the american one, i read and i read but in vain. Yet all agree that lithium is the 1st line mood stabilizer for many reasons one is historical, usually the new trend is to give antipsychotics 1st until you reach stabilization then you switch to lithium. One new trend says lithium + abilify but no 2 pdocs agree on the same meds neither the doses. Perhaps after a few decades that they can find something. The pharm comp in order to spend money on research it has to be rewarding, 1% of the population is not enough. However 50% women warrants spending on cosmetics.
I have given up really, and i have to admit that i shall have to suffer the rest of my life, most of the time my wish is to die.
thank you anyway
I can understand you wanting to make a decision based on the best evidence possible. I also think if you dig deep enough you will find both evidence to support and against taking st Johns wort which can sometimes confuse the issue.
You know yourself there is some risk, as there is with just about any antidepressant, but you may have to go with your gut instincts on this one, because everybody reacts to medication in an individual manner anyway,ultimately the choice is yours.
I took st johns wort for several months from a good quality source many years ago, before my BP diagnosis, and I found that it had absolutely no effect - it diddn't send me into mania, or touch the depression.for what it's worth and I had no side effects. The risk of mania wouldn't put me off trying it again if i felt the need, but it wouldn't be high on my personal list of choices for an AD. I hope you get the information you want!
Good luck whatever you chose to do
You know yourself there is some risk, as there is with just about any antidepressant, but you may have to go with your gut instincts on this one, because everybody reacts to medication in an individual manner anyway,ultimately the choice is yours.
I took st johns wort for several months from a good quality source many years ago, before my BP diagnosis, and I found that it had absolutely no effect - it diddn't send me into mania, or touch the depression.for what it's worth and I had no side effects. The risk of mania wouldn't put me off trying it again if i felt the need, but it wouldn't be high on my personal list of choices for an AD. I hope you get the information you want!
Good luck whatever you chose to do
There are other things that can help with depression and raise serotonin levels. Eating bread can help. Also eating a small amount of dark chocolate 60% or 70% cocoa daily will lift your mood.
Also try Omega 3 Fish Oil that has been proven to help bipolar.
Usually people in depression are low in B12. I did some research and I saw it on the show "House" that people that feel guilty alot are low in B12. I think though you have to be careful because too much of the vitamin makes me manic. However you can eat a healthy cereal and get that vitamin daily from the cereal.
Also there is some new research that staying up late at night can cause serotonin loss and lead to depression. Going to bed earlier will help alleviate that.
My psychiatrist's nurse said not to do the St. John's wart.
Oh, and sunshine daily at least half an hour between 8:00 am and 12:00 noon can cure depression.
These are all things that have helped me feel better, I hope they help you too.
Also try Omega 3 Fish Oil that has been proven to help bipolar.
Usually people in depression are low in B12. I did some research and I saw it on the show "House" that people that feel guilty alot are low in B12. I think though you have to be careful because too much of the vitamin makes me manic. However you can eat a healthy cereal and get that vitamin daily from the cereal.
Also there is some new research that staying up late at night can cause serotonin loss and lead to depression. Going to bed earlier will help alleviate that.
My psychiatrist's nurse said not to do the St. John's wart.
Oh, and sunshine daily at least half an hour between 8:00 am and 12:00 noon can cure depression.
These are all things that have helped me feel better, I hope they help you too.
Hi
Thank you very much. In fact it happened that i came across this same site this morning and saw nothing special address to bipolars although it says for BP. When you read it it says not suitable because of mania risk. however all antidepressant have the same risk. pdocs of course admit only what they know. this is why i really am skeptical about their opinion and whether i can use it as a last resort. as to seratonin syndrome and the like all of them cause it
thx anyway for your help
Thank you very much. In fact it happened that i came across this same site this morning and saw nothing special address to bipolars although it says for BP. When you read it it says not suitable because of mania risk. however all antidepressant have the same risk. pdocs of course admit only what they know. this is why i really am skeptical about their opinion and whether i can use it as a last resort. as to seratonin syndrome and the like all of them cause it
thx anyway for your help
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