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prevention of ductal breast cancer
It is obvious that the epidemic of ductal breast cancer cannot be due to all of these thousands of women being genetically flawed. It further suggests that there must be some common, underlying universal cause which we are overlooking and which, if identified, could be a target for PREVENTION.
In the course of researching my wife's breast cancer I discovered that the doctors removed a toxic looking fluid from her ducts on two ocassions. I wondered if it is possible that this toxic fluid accumulates in the breast ducts over time and that it eventually triggers the cells of the walls of the ducts to become cancerous in all these women. It is not difficult to speculate that the toxins in our atmospjere and in our food could be the source of this toxic fluid.
If this is possible then the logical conclusion was that perhaps if women had their ducts PUMPED and DRAINED on a regular basis like a form of regular maintenance it would keep the fluid from accumulating and becoming toxic and thereby PREVENTING breast cancer from being triggered in all these women in the first place.
I published this theory on the web and even received a positive response from the Dr. Susan Love foundation saying I "may have hit on something" but I have not been able to mobilize any mainstream medical institution from investigating and sponsoring this idea and I have decided to appeal to the general population on forums such as this.
This idea is so simple, so obvious and so intuitive it immediately makes sense to anyone I discuss it with. Perhaps it cannot explain or resolve all the causes of breast cancer but it seems it has sufficient merit to be seriously discussed as a possible cause of the majority of breast cancers.
I am interrested to know what your perspective is on this idea and if it seems to make sense. If it makes any sense to you, HOW can we advance this process ?
In the course of researching my wife's breast cancer I discovered that the doctors removed a toxic looking fluid from her ducts on two ocassions. I wondered if it is possible that this toxic fluid accumulates in the breast ducts over time and that it eventually triggers the cells of the walls of the ducts to become cancerous in all these women. It is not difficult to speculate that the toxins in our atmospjere and in our food could be the source of this toxic fluid.
If this is possible then the logical conclusion was that perhaps if women had their ducts PUMPED and DRAINED on a regular basis like a form of regular maintenance it would keep the fluid from accumulating and becoming toxic and thereby PREVENTING breast cancer from being triggered in all these women in the first place.
I published this theory on the web and even received a positive response from the Dr. Susan Love foundation saying I "may have hit on something" but I have not been able to mobilize any mainstream medical institution from investigating and sponsoring this idea and I have decided to appeal to the general population on forums such as this.
This idea is so simple, so obvious and so intuitive it immediately makes sense to anyone I discuss it with. Perhaps it cannot explain or resolve all the causes of breast cancer but it seems it has sufficient merit to be seriously discussed as a possible cause of the majority of breast cancers.
I am interrested to know what your perspective is on this idea and if it seems to make sense. If it makes any sense to you, HOW can we advance this process ?
Thank you for your apology. This is the spirit in which I had hoped this discussion would be conducted. We should all just be trying to exchange ideas and search for solutions to a problem that seems to be overwhelming the medical community. THEY NEED OUR HELP. They need FRESH ideas. We can discuss these ideas without any personal agendas or conflicts of interest. All I care about is finding a solution.
My basic underlying premise is that the FOCUS in breast cancer must be on PREVENTION and that perhaps adopting some regular practice of keeping these ducts clear and clean ( if you don't like the expression PUMP AND DRAIN) could be ONE of the answers.
It is interesting that you suggest that I go and get information FIRST and submit it to the proper people/organizations BEFORE asking for ( the public's ) support. I tried that but it did not work and I am seeking support in these type of forums so that if enough other people accept the logic of this idea the pressure from all of us will mount on these institutions, or even better the MEDIA to investigate this idea properly.
Also, there is NO "information" out there on this matter specifically because in my opinion it is so SIMPLE and OBVIOUS, so new and radical that no-one, as far as I know has ever proposed it.
In my mind the failure to have even thought of this line of reasoning is inexcusable and a classic example of the doctors "not seeing the forest for the trees" and of "possibly" missing something OBVIOUS which is right under their noses.
Just to give you an example of their "blindfolded" and narrow perspective, when I first brought up this idea with my wife's oncologist several years ago and suggested that the toxic looking fluid they removed from her breast ducts might be the "CAUSE" of the cancer, he looked at me like I was nuts and said " it's not the FLUID which is cancerous, but the walls of the ducts". I couldn't believe his comment and I looked at him like he was nuts and said "of course its the WALLS of the ducts which become cancerous...but maybe its because this toxic loooking fluid is festering in these ducts and turning them cancerous". By contrast, every "lay" person I ever discussed this matter with "GOT IT" immediately. Also, in the defence of other doctors I have discussed this with, most of them caught on right away. The problem is to get them to do something about it.
So that you all know where I am coming from and what my ideas are based on please know that I believe in GOD and in the majesty of our GOD given design of life. I feel, based on my own research and intuitions that as complex as this design seems to be my fundamental underlying philosophy about this design of life is that for the vast majority of illnesses there are SIMPLE and OBVIOUS solutions built into this design which would help us avoid or cure most illnesses if only we just understood this design on a more intuitive and GLOBAL basis.
Hence the idea of STARTING by just keeping ALL of our "plumbing" clean. In the case of ductal breast cancer this means keeping the ducts clean. For colon cancer perhaps keeping the intestinal tract regularly cleansed etc.
As far as submitting this idea to "institutions", after having published this idea on several medical websites I sent this article to the following mainstream institutions;
-DANA FARBER
-NATIONAL CANCER INSTITUTE IN BETHESDA MARYLAND
-CANADIAN CANCER SOCIETY
-CALIFORNIA BREAST CANCER ASSOC
-MONTREAL BREAST CANCER ACTION COMMITTEE
-DR. WHITACKER NEWS LETTER
I got feedback from most of them saying the idea was interesting and wishing me well but not willing to follow up and investigate.
The president of the MONTREAL BREAST CANCER ACTION COMMITTEE went so far as to submit this proposal to their general council for adoption and promotion. I offered to make the presentation myself because it does take a little bit of background and explanation,as you see from the exchanges in our posts, but the president insisted on making the submission alone. This group's mandate is to try to remove toxins from the environment and so I suggested that it could be a "natural" extension of this mandate that while they are doing that...which could take years...in the meantime at least try to REMOVE these toxins from the breast ducts if thats where some of them end up. Their final answer was that although they thought the idea had merit it was not part of their group's mandate and they "wished me well".
But the most frustrating exchange came from the Dr. Susan Love Foundation, one of the leading breast cancer centers. They wrote back to me twice saying " I MAY HAVE HIT ON SOMETHING" and that they also felt for a long time that the focus should be on prevention and that it should involve some sort of program of regular maintenance....they actually made the analogy to "brushing your teeth". I was very encouraged by this response from such a MAJOR player in this field, but what happened later was SO predictable.
I pointed out that they themselves already advocated a protocol called "LAVAGE" which even sounds like what I am talking about, but this process is used only in a limited way as a method to extract a few cells from some of a women's ducts to DETECT cancer earlier. I suggested that instead of just using it for early DETECTION of cancer why not extend this concept to its natural conclusion and completely clean out all of a women's breast ducts as a way of PREVENTING breast cancer in the first place, IF it was possible that what might be a toxic accumulation of fluids in these ducts is triggering the cancer.
I furthermore even suggested that if they did think that " I may have hit on something" and that if it made sense to them WHY NOT use their position and status to immediately recommend this to the general women population because it was so simple and obvious, it COULD possibly help, could NOT do any harm and there were already many methods in existance for doing this.
I looked at it from the perspective that unlike other treatment protocols we don't have to wait for ten years of testing and hundreds of thousands of women dying before at least trying this. We can study the results as we go. IF it turns out to not be effective...we'll abandon it and NO HARM DONE. Let's face it...it cannot be any less effecective than what's in existance right now as far as PREVENTION is concerned.
However, once I started pressing them to actually DO something about this... the exchanges stopped.
Unfortunately, my observation is that the mainstream medical community is VERY protective and defensive about their own positions and VERY reluctant to try anything "creative" and especially reluctant to take any advice from non-medical experts. If you saw the movie LORENZO'S OIL, which is "must view" for anyone interested in contributing to this "WAR" they will see another example of where the mainstream medical community was resistant to adopt a protocol developed by non-doctors...even AFTER it was shown to be effective. It took the general population of victims and their families to adopt and implement their ideas themselves.
I am giving you all this long....perhaps too long..... background because I believe its important for all of us to know where we are coming from and better understand our motivation and basis of our ideas. Perhaps it will influence people to believe in our compassion and sincerity to contribute something to irradicate this scourge from humanity and that we have no other agenda EXCEPT TO HELP.
My basic underlying premise is that the FOCUS in breast cancer must be on PREVENTION and that perhaps adopting some regular practice of keeping these ducts clear and clean ( if you don't like the expression PUMP AND DRAIN) could be ONE of the answers.
It is interesting that you suggest that I go and get information FIRST and submit it to the proper people/organizations BEFORE asking for ( the public's ) support. I tried that but it did not work and I am seeking support in these type of forums so that if enough other people accept the logic of this idea the pressure from all of us will mount on these institutions, or even better the MEDIA to investigate this idea properly.
Also, there is NO "information" out there on this matter specifically because in my opinion it is so SIMPLE and OBVIOUS, so new and radical that no-one, as far as I know has ever proposed it.
In my mind the failure to have even thought of this line of reasoning is inexcusable and a classic example of the doctors "not seeing the forest for the trees" and of "possibly" missing something OBVIOUS which is right under their noses.
Just to give you an example of their "blindfolded" and narrow perspective, when I first brought up this idea with my wife's oncologist several years ago and suggested that the toxic looking fluid they removed from her breast ducts might be the "CAUSE" of the cancer, he looked at me like I was nuts and said " it's not the FLUID which is cancerous, but the walls of the ducts". I couldn't believe his comment and I looked at him like he was nuts and said "of course its the WALLS of the ducts which become cancerous...but maybe its because this toxic loooking fluid is festering in these ducts and turning them cancerous". By contrast, every "lay" person I ever discussed this matter with "GOT IT" immediately. Also, in the defence of other doctors I have discussed this with, most of them caught on right away. The problem is to get them to do something about it.
So that you all know where I am coming from and what my ideas are based on please know that I believe in GOD and in the majesty of our GOD given design of life. I feel, based on my own research and intuitions that as complex as this design seems to be my fundamental underlying philosophy about this design of life is that for the vast majority of illnesses there are SIMPLE and OBVIOUS solutions built into this design which would help us avoid or cure most illnesses if only we just understood this design on a more intuitive and GLOBAL basis.
Hence the idea of STARTING by just keeping ALL of our "plumbing" clean. In the case of ductal breast cancer this means keeping the ducts clean. For colon cancer perhaps keeping the intestinal tract regularly cleansed etc.
As far as submitting this idea to "institutions", after having published this idea on several medical websites I sent this article to the following mainstream institutions;
-DANA FARBER
-NATIONAL CANCER INSTITUTE IN BETHESDA MARYLAND
-CANADIAN CANCER SOCIETY
-CALIFORNIA BREAST CANCER ASSOC
-MONTREAL BREAST CANCER ACTION COMMITTEE
-DR. WHITACKER NEWS LETTER
I got feedback from most of them saying the idea was interesting and wishing me well but not willing to follow up and investigate.
The president of the MONTREAL BREAST CANCER ACTION COMMITTEE went so far as to submit this proposal to their general council for adoption and promotion. I offered to make the presentation myself because it does take a little bit of background and explanation,as you see from the exchanges in our posts, but the president insisted on making the submission alone. This group's mandate is to try to remove toxins from the environment and so I suggested that it could be a "natural" extension of this mandate that while they are doing that...which could take years...in the meantime at least try to REMOVE these toxins from the breast ducts if thats where some of them end up. Their final answer was that although they thought the idea had merit it was not part of their group's mandate and they "wished me well".
But the most frustrating exchange came from the Dr. Susan Love Foundation, one of the leading breast cancer centers. They wrote back to me twice saying " I MAY HAVE HIT ON SOMETHING" and that they also felt for a long time that the focus should be on prevention and that it should involve some sort of program of regular maintenance....they actually made the analogy to "brushing your teeth". I was very encouraged by this response from such a MAJOR player in this field, but what happened later was SO predictable.
I pointed out that they themselves already advocated a protocol called "LAVAGE" which even sounds like what I am talking about, but this process is used only in a limited way as a method to extract a few cells from some of a women's ducts to DETECT cancer earlier. I suggested that instead of just using it for early DETECTION of cancer why not extend this concept to its natural conclusion and completely clean out all of a women's breast ducts as a way of PREVENTING breast cancer in the first place, IF it was possible that what might be a toxic accumulation of fluids in these ducts is triggering the cancer.
I furthermore even suggested that if they did think that " I may have hit on something" and that if it made sense to them WHY NOT use their position and status to immediately recommend this to the general women population because it was so simple and obvious, it COULD possibly help, could NOT do any harm and there were already many methods in existance for doing this.
I looked at it from the perspective that unlike other treatment protocols we don't have to wait for ten years of testing and hundreds of thousands of women dying before at least trying this. We can study the results as we go. IF it turns out to not be effective...we'll abandon it and NO HARM DONE. Let's face it...it cannot be any less effecective than what's in existance right now as far as PREVENTION is concerned.
However, once I started pressing them to actually DO something about this... the exchanges stopped.
Unfortunately, my observation is that the mainstream medical community is VERY protective and defensive about their own positions and VERY reluctant to try anything "creative" and especially reluctant to take any advice from non-medical experts. If you saw the movie LORENZO'S OIL, which is "must view" for anyone interested in contributing to this "WAR" they will see another example of where the mainstream medical community was resistant to adopt a protocol developed by non-doctors...even AFTER it was shown to be effective. It took the general population of victims and their families to adopt and implement their ideas themselves.
I am giving you all this long....perhaps too long..... background because I believe its important for all of us to know where we are coming from and better understand our motivation and basis of our ideas. Perhaps it will influence people to believe in our compassion and sincerity to contribute something to irradicate this scourge from humanity and that we have no other agenda EXCEPT TO HELP.
I apologize for making it personal however I still feel you are exploiting vulnerable women.
Yes, you do respond to feedback but I feel you do not reflect on it -not very deeply anyway.
I feel if you truly believe in your theory that you should present it to the appropriate people/ organizations.
I think it would be more appropriate if you went away, got the necessary information, then came back and presented the facts before asking for support.
This is my personal opinion.
As this is counter-productive seemingly for everyone concerned I am going to cease following this thread.
J
Yes, you do respond to feedback but I feel you do not reflect on it -not very deeply anyway.
I feel if you truly believe in your theory that you should present it to the appropriate people/ organizations.
I think it would be more appropriate if you went away, got the necessary information, then came back and presented the facts before asking for support.
This is my personal opinion.
As this is counter-productive seemingly for everyone concerned I am going to cease following this thread.
J
I am responding to the post be JAQUTA but addressing it to everyone because the exchange is important.
I am disappointed that JAQUTA is not happy with my suggestions and the fact that I am responding to all these posts show that I DO in fact care about and respond to crticism because it is important to address all the different contrary opinions or requests for clarification..
It is not however my intention to argue with people who may not see what I am saying because everyone is entitled to their opinion. I am especially offended by the outrageous comment about trying to " take advantage of vulnerable people". HOW .....by stimulating discussion? This comment is unnecessarily confrontational and unjustified and has no basis whatsoever and is not very productive.
If JAQUTA is not in agreement that is her priviledge but she should limit her comments to constructive criticism and refrain from making personal attacks. This does not help anyone.
For example, her comment about "more natural" methods to effect this PUMPING and DRAINING are relevant and I do not have any preconceived notions about how this could be done. There are already many existing techniques but if someone could come up with some more " natural", even less intrusive ways to cleanse the breast ducts that would be GREAT.
My objective is to stimulate debate and see if we can help the medical community offer some NEW ideas and perspectives which they do not seem to be looking at.
I am disappointed that JAQUTA is not happy with my suggestions and the fact that I am responding to all these posts show that I DO in fact care about and respond to crticism because it is important to address all the different contrary opinions or requests for clarification..
It is not however my intention to argue with people who may not see what I am saying because everyone is entitled to their opinion. I am especially offended by the outrageous comment about trying to " take advantage of vulnerable people". HOW .....by stimulating discussion? This comment is unnecessarily confrontational and unjustified and has no basis whatsoever and is not very productive.
If JAQUTA is not in agreement that is her priviledge but she should limit her comments to constructive criticism and refrain from making personal attacks. This does not help anyone.
For example, her comment about "more natural" methods to effect this PUMPING and DRAINING are relevant and I do not have any preconceived notions about how this could be done. There are already many existing techniques but if someone could come up with some more " natural", even less intrusive ways to cleanse the breast ducts that would be GREAT.
My objective is to stimulate debate and see if we can help the medical community offer some NEW ideas and perspectives which they do not seem to be looking at.
Why then, don't you look at more natural processes to clean these ducts?
Many other health issues can be addressed by paying attention to diet and exercise.
Maybe you are turned on by the thought of women undergoing ductal lavage?
I personally feel your theory has fundamental flaws.
Perhaps you are just preying on vulnerable people to garnish support for your idea??
Perhaps it would be more prudent to research the matter then come back with your findings and theory.
I personally feel extremely angry about your suggestions.
I am coming to the conclusion that you are not very receptive to the input/ feedback you are receiving/ have received.
I perceive the application of your idea as being very similar to that of leeches, etc.
J
Many other health issues can be addressed by paying attention to diet and exercise.
Maybe you are turned on by the thought of women undergoing ductal lavage?
I personally feel your theory has fundamental flaws.
Perhaps you are just preying on vulnerable people to garnish support for your idea??
Perhaps it would be more prudent to research the matter then come back with your findings and theory.
I personally feel extremely angry about your suggestions.
I am coming to the conclusion that you are not very receptive to the input/ feedback you are receiving/ have received.
I perceive the application of your idea as being very similar to that of leeches, etc.
J
Having seen the latest posts it is obvious that this idea of PUMPING and DRAINING a women's breast ducts generates some very strong reactions and many people bring in a plethora of other considerations....all of which are very pertinent and relevent but it shows again how we can get distracted from the main SIMPLE UNDERLYING PREMISE, namely; that perhaps...perhaps...perhaps.... the FIRST line of defence to preventing ductal breast cancer can be as simple as keeping these ducts CLEAN.
Maybe it will proven to be unable to prevent all breast cancers but LETS AT LEAST TRY IT for ductal breast cancer and see the results.
No one has yet proposed this simple, intuitive solution and I submit to all of you that this idea at least warrants further investigation. What the doctors and researchers have been doing is NOT working...so if this effort fails...it is no worse thatn the status quo.
In the words of John Lennon "All I am saying... is give peace ( of pumping and draining )a chance".
I am sure that the simplicity of this idea and the logic of it is so overpowering that it will appeal to the common sense of most non-medical people when they hear about it and there will no problem getting many women to try this out. It is not intrusive and cannot do any harm...only GOOD.
My objective with this and other forums is to spread the word and stimulate action.
So far so good. Keep the cards and letters coming
Maybe it will proven to be unable to prevent all breast cancers but LETS AT LEAST TRY IT for ductal breast cancer and see the results.
No one has yet proposed this simple, intuitive solution and I submit to all of you that this idea at least warrants further investigation. What the doctors and researchers have been doing is NOT working...so if this effort fails...it is no worse thatn the status quo.
In the words of John Lennon "All I am saying... is give peace ( of pumping and draining )a chance".
I am sure that the simplicity of this idea and the logic of it is so overpowering that it will appeal to the common sense of most non-medical people when they hear about it and there will no problem getting many women to try this out. It is not intrusive and cannot do any harm...only GOOD.
My objective with this and other forums is to spread the word and stimulate action.
So far so good. Keep the cards and letters coming
You sound like a very compassionate fellow, who's has deep concern over your wife's breast cancer. I understand where your coming from, but honestly '.........regular maintenance' ? I am very sensitive to this issue right now, since I am awaiting a second biopsy because the first showed atypical ductal hyperplasia. And, I wonder how it got there. And maybe massage and breast pump isn't such an off-the-wall idea to some, but I think you will not see too many volunteers for the clinical trials from this website. You know if a man lives long enough there is a greater chance that he will develop prostate problems than a woman developing breast problems. I think that I could never suggest having the prostate gland pumped and drained on a regular basis for 'regular maintenance'. When I first saw your post, I wanted to ask, "What are you smoking?" But after reading more of your posts, I see you are sincere. It just seems very out of place here when so many woman are looking for relative answers to their current fears.
I totally understand where you are coming from; I really do, J. You are just being totally honest! Best, Kat
Listening communicates a sense of interest (or opportunity to gather more information to either prove or disprove his theory).
I disagree. You would need to market your idea and if it sounds or feels remotely devaluing, etc many people would dismiss it.
What do you suggest? Removing all milk ducts? Are people then to bottle feed their infants? What happens to vital antibiotics and bonding and melamine scares, etc?
It is a matter of personal opinion what is or isn't more invasive, dehumanizing.
Why are these toxins specific to the breast? Fatty breast tissues, inadequate drainage due to what -duct size, blockages, etc??
Perhaps everyone should get their blood drained once a month. That sounds incredibly healthy. I think I'll take my chances with cancer and other diseases.
Bacteria also play an important role in health. They aren't all just to be got rid of.
Whatever happened to a healthy diet and lifestyle?? Aren't these the most non-invasive preventative measures a person can take?
I think the priority is establishing the catalyst for cancer growth. Identifying the cause has got to be paramount. Once the cause has been identified appropriate measures can then be taken.
Although if prophylactic treatments do work they should be further investigated.
Sorry! I am extremely judgmental and biased. I can't get my head around your idea.
J
I disagree. You would need to market your idea and if it sounds or feels remotely devaluing, etc many people would dismiss it.
What do you suggest? Removing all milk ducts? Are people then to bottle feed their infants? What happens to vital antibiotics and bonding and melamine scares, etc?
It is a matter of personal opinion what is or isn't more invasive, dehumanizing.
Why are these toxins specific to the breast? Fatty breast tissues, inadequate drainage due to what -duct size, blockages, etc??
Perhaps everyone should get their blood drained once a month. That sounds incredibly healthy. I think I'll take my chances with cancer and other diseases.
Bacteria also play an important role in health. They aren't all just to be got rid of.
Whatever happened to a healthy diet and lifestyle?? Aren't these the most non-invasive preventative measures a person can take?
I think the priority is establishing the catalyst for cancer growth. Identifying the cause has got to be paramount. Once the cause has been identified appropriate measures can then be taken.
Although if prophylactic treatments do work they should be further investigated.
Sorry! I am extremely judgmental and biased. I can't get my head around your idea.
J
Yes I agree there is not enough attention paid to the LYMPH system and that keeping this fluid moving and keeping this pathway clean may also be another very important embodiment of this idea of PUMPING and DRAINING a women's breast ducts.
My wife developed LYMPEDEMA in the arm in which her nodes were removed. This is a potentially serious complication which disrupts the life style of many breast cancer patients and can be disruptive and danagerous. Again after doing some simple research on the matter and using COMMON SENSE again, we started regularly massaging her arm, shoulder and chest and very quickly her LYMPEDEMA went away ! Every once in a while her arm swells up and we just massage it upwards and backwards from the wrist towards the shoulder and and neck and then down towards the heart and it clears up.AGAIN A SIMPLE SOLUTION
Again this seems to be a different application of this idea of PUMP and DRAIN and in this case it is the plumbing for the lymph system.
My main message is that all of us in the general population and who are not doctors can apply our own powers of reasoning and COMMON SENSE to this scourge on womenkind and maybe help make the type of breakthrough that the medical community seems unable or unwilling to come up with. WE CAN'T DO ANY WORSE!
My objective is to mobilize the general public and to ask them to make contributions without embarassement or fear that we are not qualified.The answer does not seem to be MONEY. The answer does not seem to be only mainstream traditional medical knowledge. It is obvious new ideas are needed.
My wife developed LYMPEDEMA in the arm in which her nodes were removed. This is a potentially serious complication which disrupts the life style of many breast cancer patients and can be disruptive and danagerous. Again after doing some simple research on the matter and using COMMON SENSE again, we started regularly massaging her arm, shoulder and chest and very quickly her LYMPEDEMA went away ! Every once in a while her arm swells up and we just massage it upwards and backwards from the wrist towards the shoulder and and neck and then down towards the heart and it clears up.AGAIN A SIMPLE SOLUTION
Again this seems to be a different application of this idea of PUMP and DRAIN and in this case it is the plumbing for the lymph system.
My main message is that all of us in the general population and who are not doctors can apply our own powers of reasoning and COMMON SENSE to this scourge on womenkind and maybe help make the type of breakthrough that the medical community seems unable or unwilling to come up with. WE CAN'T DO ANY WORSE!
My objective is to mobilize the general public and to ask them to make contributions without embarassement or fear that we are not qualified.The answer does not seem to be MONEY. The answer does not seem to be only mainstream traditional medical knowledge. It is obvious new ideas are needed.
I appreciate your comments.
Firstly, I suggest that whether or not this idea sounds like "milking" a cow is not important. If these ducts do contain toxins and if removing them can prevent ductal cancer...that is what is important. Actually there is nothing to be that squeamish about because it not an "invasive" procedure whatsoever, women already do it who are breast feeding and pump their ducts to save their milk and it is nothing compared to many of the other types of dehumanizing, invasive exams and treatments women have to endure.
The second question as to whether draining our other "plumbing" systems is sugggested as well, the answer is a resounding "YES". It may be beneficial in avoiding other types of cancers and illnesses as well.
It has already been suggested that colon cancer might be avoided by cleansing the intestinal system. Heart problems would perhaps be prevented by keeping the circulatory system clean.In general it seems logical that keeping ALL of our various "plumbing" systems clean could help prevent many types of disesases from taking root in the first place.
Maybe this is what is meant by the old adage that;
" CLEANLINESS IS NEXT TO GOD-LINESS"
But getting back to the breast, and in an effort to avoid getting side-tracked by any other complicating issues which again may distract us from investigating this simple underlying TRUTH, my idea is that when we are dealing with ductal breast cancer, lets take the perspective that no matter where the toxins in the ducts come from and regardless of whatever other factors may also be involved , the first logical PRIORITY should be to keep these ducts clean as a regular process of maintenance. LETS AT LEAST TRY IT AND SEE IF THIS HELPS !
If we try it and see that it does not work..we'll go on to other initiatives.
And finally as to your references to other types of cancer or other "intraductal" causes, these are of course very relevant and should also be examined from a bew perspective...but my FOCUS for now is "let's start " with this most common and prolific form of breast cancer and see if this helps.
Firstly, I suggest that whether or not this idea sounds like "milking" a cow is not important. If these ducts do contain toxins and if removing them can prevent ductal cancer...that is what is important. Actually there is nothing to be that squeamish about because it not an "invasive" procedure whatsoever, women already do it who are breast feeding and pump their ducts to save their milk and it is nothing compared to many of the other types of dehumanizing, invasive exams and treatments women have to endure.
The second question as to whether draining our other "plumbing" systems is sugggested as well, the answer is a resounding "YES". It may be beneficial in avoiding other types of cancers and illnesses as well.
It has already been suggested that colon cancer might be avoided by cleansing the intestinal system. Heart problems would perhaps be prevented by keeping the circulatory system clean.In general it seems logical that keeping ALL of our various "plumbing" systems clean could help prevent many types of disesases from taking root in the first place.
Maybe this is what is meant by the old adage that;
" CLEANLINESS IS NEXT TO GOD-LINESS"
But getting back to the breast, and in an effort to avoid getting side-tracked by any other complicating issues which again may distract us from investigating this simple underlying TRUTH, my idea is that when we are dealing with ductal breast cancer, lets take the perspective that no matter where the toxins in the ducts come from and regardless of whatever other factors may also be involved , the first logical PRIORITY should be to keep these ducts clean as a regular process of maintenance. LETS AT LEAST TRY IT AND SEE IF THIS HELPS !
If we try it and see that it does not work..we'll go on to other initiatives.
And finally as to your references to other types of cancer or other "intraductal" causes, these are of course very relevant and should also be examined from a bew perspective...but my FOCUS for now is "let's start " with this most common and prolific form of breast cancer and see if this helps.
I don't like the idea of ductal lavage either, that much. But then, poisoning, and burning and mutilating a person for treatment isn't exactly that appealing either?
I myself am very interested in the Lymphatic System and it's pretty much totally ignored by doctors and in Medical School
in the US, when it's such a huge and important system to pay attention to.
I also don't like Lymphedema but it seems to be such a minor silly thing to most physicians that they don't even pay attention to it.
And on and on it goes.
I am not so sure that relativityman has a profound theory either, but I like that he is curious and interested, and that he also listens.
I myself am very interested in the Lymphatic System and it's pretty much totally ignored by doctors and in Medical School
in the US, when it's such a huge and important system to pay attention to.
I also don't like Lymphedema but it seems to be such a minor silly thing to most physicians that they don't even pay attention to it.
And on and on it goes.
I am not so sure that relativityman has a profound theory either, but I like that he is curious and interested, and that he also listens.
I personally do not feel comfortable with what you are suggesting.
To be honest it sounds a little like taking a cow to be milked.
Other systems in our bodies contain toxins and I don't hear you talk about plumbing them or discussing how they may affect breast tissue.
The incidence of dcis has increased, in large, due to better diagnostic equipment.
Many women at autopsy are found to have this cancer. No mention has been made concerning their quality of life.
Males have breasts too, are you proposing they undergo the same procedure?
I would propose that lifestyle and environmental factors contribute towards developing breast cancer. I expect hormones may have a role in the process too.
If women are diagnosed with intraductal papilloma and then later found to have dcis, does that support your toxin theory? (If there were blood debris in the duct ... and toxins were released/ accumulated??)
What causes the papilloma though that puts women at increased risk??
I think stress is the answer, but I don't know in what form that stress presents to produce cancer.
Is it stress created by toxins??
I really have no idea what to think about your idea/ theory. I don't like the idea of ductal lavage though.
J
To be honest it sounds a little like taking a cow to be milked.
Other systems in our bodies contain toxins and I don't hear you talk about plumbing them or discussing how they may affect breast tissue.
The incidence of dcis has increased, in large, due to better diagnostic equipment.
Many women at autopsy are found to have this cancer. No mention has been made concerning their quality of life.
Males have breasts too, are you proposing they undergo the same procedure?
I would propose that lifestyle and environmental factors contribute towards developing breast cancer. I expect hormones may have a role in the process too.
If women are diagnosed with intraductal papilloma and then later found to have dcis, does that support your toxin theory? (If there were blood debris in the duct ... and toxins were released/ accumulated??)
What causes the papilloma though that puts women at increased risk??
I think stress is the answer, but I don't know in what form that stress presents to produce cancer.
Is it stress created by toxins??
I really have no idea what to think about your idea/ theory. I don't like the idea of ductal lavage though.
J
I am very encouraged by the discussion that has been initiated on this matter. This was exactly my objective. We in the general public, who are either victims or care givers and other interrested parties have to all get involved in this effort to irradicate breast cancer. Raising money with runs etc., is great but this does seem to have resulted in any great progress. The truth is that most of the advances have been in the improvement of machines, technology and instruments for diagnosis, but there does seem to have been any great progress in the understanding, treatment and cure of the illness.
No "breakthrough".
Once a women gets breast cancer, no matter which stage, the prognosis is terrible and the process is traumatic and distressing. The impression of an outside observer is that the medical community are overlooking some simple underlying and universal truth about this disease.
If I read one more story about a patient dying "after a long brave battle with cancer" I will throw up. This is a terrible indictment of the state of the medical community's knowledge and conscientiousness.Of course patients eventually give up and die because the process is so disruptive, dehumanizing and arduous and eventually they stop trying. From what I have seen, the treatments, chemotherapy and side effects may cause as many deaths as the disease.
That is why in my opinion the FOCUS must be on PREVENTION and non doctors must get involved in the process itself and contribute their intuitions and ideas and not just money.The money has been going down a BLACK HOLE and quite frankly, even though I may sound like a "conspiracy" nut in saying so, there is a manifest and built-in "CONFLICT OF INTEREST" in this field which may be stalling any significant progress in this field.
As long as researchers keep getting millions, if not billions of dollars to investigate this matter...what is the motivation to find a PREVENTION or CURE? They may not admit it, this may be too much of a generalization and there are probably many sincere and motivated doctors and reserachers, but this conflict of interest is inescapable and undeniable.
I have written to the PRESIDENT in the past suggesting that instead of throwing endless money at researchers, change the process and offer a multi-billion dollar prize to whoever comes up with a successfull treatment or cure.
Just to put the feasibility of this effort by ordinary people into perspective, my encouragement and motivation in all of this was the movie LORENZ'S OIL. In dealing with their son's disease Michaela and Augusto Odene, Lorenzo's parents, applied common sense and came up with a theory to address ADL (adenoleucodystrophy) which the entire medical community around the world had failed to do in ten years and the solution they came up with was exactly the OPPOSITE approach the medical community was using. In the end the reasoning behind their solution was based on common sense and their solution was SIMPLE. They did all of this before the era of the internet and relied on library books which were probably outdated by the time they read them.Their efforts saved the lives of many children whose disease had not progressed as far as their own son's case.
Today with the WEB we can all contribute and, as they did, apply the ordinary COMMON SENSE of people who are not doctors and therefore not too distracted by too much information and bring a fresh approach to this battle.
Perhaps in the solution MAY not be so simple as DRAINING and PUMPING out the breast ducts to try to stop the cancer process, but by the same token the inescapable conclusion is that perhaps this SIMPLE idea MAY make a difference.
The obvious conclusion from our discussion in this forum is that this SIMPLE idea has never even been considered as a possible approach and yet it is so intuitve and obvious from a common sense point of view.
In conclusion, I invite all of you who are responding to discuss this matter with your doctors and acquaintences or if you have any contacts in the MEDIA to try to get them to investigate this idea and give it a larger exposure.
No "breakthrough".
Once a women gets breast cancer, no matter which stage, the prognosis is terrible and the process is traumatic and distressing. The impression of an outside observer is that the medical community are overlooking some simple underlying and universal truth about this disease.
If I read one more story about a patient dying "after a long brave battle with cancer" I will throw up. This is a terrible indictment of the state of the medical community's knowledge and conscientiousness.Of course patients eventually give up and die because the process is so disruptive, dehumanizing and arduous and eventually they stop trying. From what I have seen, the treatments, chemotherapy and side effects may cause as many deaths as the disease.
That is why in my opinion the FOCUS must be on PREVENTION and non doctors must get involved in the process itself and contribute their intuitions and ideas and not just money.The money has been going down a BLACK HOLE and quite frankly, even though I may sound like a "conspiracy" nut in saying so, there is a manifest and built-in "CONFLICT OF INTEREST" in this field which may be stalling any significant progress in this field.
As long as researchers keep getting millions, if not billions of dollars to investigate this matter...what is the motivation to find a PREVENTION or CURE? They may not admit it, this may be too much of a generalization and there are probably many sincere and motivated doctors and reserachers, but this conflict of interest is inescapable and undeniable.
I have written to the PRESIDENT in the past suggesting that instead of throwing endless money at researchers, change the process and offer a multi-billion dollar prize to whoever comes up with a successfull treatment or cure.
Just to put the feasibility of this effort by ordinary people into perspective, my encouragement and motivation in all of this was the movie LORENZ'S OIL. In dealing with their son's disease Michaela and Augusto Odene, Lorenzo's parents, applied common sense and came up with a theory to address ADL (adenoleucodystrophy) which the entire medical community around the world had failed to do in ten years and the solution they came up with was exactly the OPPOSITE approach the medical community was using. In the end the reasoning behind their solution was based on common sense and their solution was SIMPLE. They did all of this before the era of the internet and relied on library books which were probably outdated by the time they read them.Their efforts saved the lives of many children whose disease had not progressed as far as their own son's case.
Today with the WEB we can all contribute and, as they did, apply the ordinary COMMON SENSE of people who are not doctors and therefore not too distracted by too much information and bring a fresh approach to this battle.
Perhaps in the solution MAY not be so simple as DRAINING and PUMPING out the breast ducts to try to stop the cancer process, but by the same token the inescapable conclusion is that perhaps this SIMPLE idea MAY make a difference.
The obvious conclusion from our discussion in this forum is that this SIMPLE idea has never even been considered as a possible approach and yet it is so intuitve and obvious from a common sense point of view.
In conclusion, I invite all of you who are responding to discuss this matter with your doctors and acquaintences or if you have any contacts in the MEDIA to try to get them to investigate this idea and give it a larger exposure.
I agree with you on the hormones they inject into chickens, cows, etc, and also milk. Not only 10 years old girls with boobs but boys as well. at least a quarter of the boys are fat and have boobs, it seems. With teenagers it's even worse. I try to buy organic milk bit it's so expensive, and not to mention meat and all that. I am also sure it helped when women had a bunch of kids and breast fed them all, and before birth control hormones, etc, etc.
relativity man, yes, there are lymph nodes in the breast. When I had my biopsy it showed that cancer was both in the lymphatic and the vascular system. i'll see what I can find and if I do, I'll send you a link, OK? But you should also check yourself. I may also be able to find a massage article about prevention of bc that I had and which was very good.
relativity man, yes, there are lymph nodes in the breast. When I had my biopsy it showed that cancer was both in the lymphatic and the vascular system. i'll see what I can find and if I do, I'll send you a link, OK? But you should also check yourself. I may also be able to find a massage article about prevention of bc that I had and which was very good.
That sent before I was done lol
I was trying to bring a little levity to such a serioius discussion.
I hope your wife does well. I wish you both well.
I was trying to bring a little levity to such a serioius discussion.
I hope your wife does well. I wish you both well.
I honestly believe that all of the hormones being pumped in to chickens, cows, pigs etc. are a huge contributing factor. Then add in the carcinogens. When you see 10 and 11 yr old little girls with breasts and starting their periods even earlier, you have to see that in our quest to have everything faster, bigger, better etc... we've potentially made a huge error. I say that if you only make ONE change in your life, buy organic milk or soy milk. Especially for your kids. They're worth it.
Milking my breasts would not have stopped my kind of cancer but might have been fun!
Milking my breasts would not have stopped my kind of cancer but might have been fun!
I honestly believe that all of the hormones being pumped in to chickens, cows, pigs etc. are a huge contributing factor. Then add in the carcinogens. When you see 10 and 11 yr old little girls with breasts and starting their periods even earlier, you have to see that in our quest to have everything faster, bigger, better etc... we've potentially made a huge error. I say that if you only make ONE change in your life, buy organic milk or soy milk. Especially for your kids. They're worth it.
Milking my breasts would not have stopped my kind of cancer but might have been fun!
Milking my breasts would not have stopped my kind of cancer but might have been fun!
Thank you for commenting on my post.
Firstly, your reference to MASSAGE is very significant because many people, including doctors have asked me HOW such PUMPING or DRAINING might be effected. I told them that as far as my research is concerned, there are already MANY existing techniques for cleansing and draining the ducts. Some are used by nursing mothers who want to save their breast milk. Some are the same types of procedures as are used by women with enflamed ducts or with such problems as MASTITIS. Others involve reverse "flushes" with some sort of saline solutions. MASSAGE and HEAT are other procedures. So several techniques already exist.
I even tried to interest one of my clients who works for a pharmaceutical company to consider the commercial aspect of this and market a "kit" with a sort of pump and some solution to reverse flush the ducts. It could be a part of a women's regular maintenance.
The toxic fluid in the ducts may or may not be lymph, I am not expert enough on the anatomy of the ducts themselves to conclude that they contain lymph. I thought that lymph instead "surrounds" the tissues, but I defer to anatomy specialists on this question. Again the point is that whatever these fluids consist of, whether it is lymph, milk, environmental toxins, etc., they all end up in the ducts, do not get adequately removed and ultimately MAY be the triggers for the cells of the ducts becoming cancerous and that removing them MAY prevent this type of cancer in a lot of cases.
I originally submitted this idea to the Dr. Susuan Love Foundation because they were already advocates of a protocol called "LAVAGE" which sort of sounds like what I am talking about but it was being used in a limited way to only etract a few cells from some of a women's ducts as a method for early "detection" of cancer. I suggested to them that instead of using it only to detect existing cancer cells, which is already too late, why not extend this to its logical conclusion and use the same techniques or similar techniques to completely PUMP and DRAIN ALL of a women's breast ducts on a regular basis BEFORE they get cancer and use is as a possible method of prevention.
As I mentioned in my post, they wrote back to me saying I "may have hit on something" but I could not get them to promote this idea and so I have been trying to spread this idea to the general public on forums such as this.
I hope this is the start of a serious investigation and debate of this idea.
Firstly, your reference to MASSAGE is very significant because many people, including doctors have asked me HOW such PUMPING or DRAINING might be effected. I told them that as far as my research is concerned, there are already MANY existing techniques for cleansing and draining the ducts. Some are used by nursing mothers who want to save their breast milk. Some are the same types of procedures as are used by women with enflamed ducts or with such problems as MASTITIS. Others involve reverse "flushes" with some sort of saline solutions. MASSAGE and HEAT are other procedures. So several techniques already exist.
I even tried to interest one of my clients who works for a pharmaceutical company to consider the commercial aspect of this and market a "kit" with a sort of pump and some solution to reverse flush the ducts. It could be a part of a women's regular maintenance.
The toxic fluid in the ducts may or may not be lymph, I am not expert enough on the anatomy of the ducts themselves to conclude that they contain lymph. I thought that lymph instead "surrounds" the tissues, but I defer to anatomy specialists on this question. Again the point is that whatever these fluids consist of, whether it is lymph, milk, environmental toxins, etc., they all end up in the ducts, do not get adequately removed and ultimately MAY be the triggers for the cells of the ducts becoming cancerous and that removing them MAY prevent this type of cancer in a lot of cases.
I originally submitted this idea to the Dr. Susuan Love Foundation because they were already advocates of a protocol called "LAVAGE" which sort of sounds like what I am talking about but it was being used in a limited way to only etract a few cells from some of a women's ducts as a method for early "detection" of cancer. I suggested to them that instead of using it only to detect existing cancer cells, which is already too late, why not extend this to its logical conclusion and use the same techniques or similar techniques to completely PUMP and DRAIN ALL of a women's breast ducts on a regular basis BEFORE they get cancer and use is as a possible method of prevention.
As I mentioned in my post, they wrote back to me saying I "may have hit on something" but I could not get them to promote this idea and so I have been trying to spread this idea to the general public on forums such as this.
I hope this is the start of a serious investigation and debate of this idea.
Thank you for reading the post.This is exactly the type of discussion I was hoping to generate and I welcome critiques so they be addressed and evaluated. Firstly, we are not necessarily talking only about only MILK in the ducts but all the other environmental agents that are combined in that milk.The TOXIC fluid may be milk which hasn't drained and has become toxic or other agrents combined with such milk or just such other non-milk agents alone which end up in the ducts.
You are right that the prevention of ALL ductal breast cancer MAY not be as simple as women PUMPING and DRAINING their breast ducts on a regular basis, but it is also POSSIBLE and logical that it MAY . The point is that it is a theory which is so intuitive and so simple it appeals to my global "big picture" approach to medical problems and it is an observation which makes so much sense it at least warrants serious investigation.
I like to say that this theory about breast cancer is a specific application of the general adage that 'CLEANLINESS IS NEXT TO GODLINESS" and that perhaps keeping ALL of our different types of "plumbing" clean could help prevent many types of diseases.
Obviously many breast cancers may have complex multi-factorial causes and triggers and these cannot be resolved by this idea alone. However, my position is that becasue of the epedemic proportions of this disease there must be some simple universal phenomenom which is responsible for the vast majority of such cases and that whatever the source of the toxic fluid is in the breasts, getting it out MAY prevent breast cancer from triggering in the first place.
The evidence to corroborate my theory about this is mounting. Firstly, many cancer advocates such as the MONTREAL BREAST CANCER ACTION COMMITTEE have adopted the position that the TOXINS in the atmosphere and in the food chain are the source of the controverting agents which trigger cancers in general and breast cancer in particular. Also, in my wife's case I recently learned that having an "inverted nipple" is a further risk factor. Such a nipple has a hard time draining normally and this would further support the theory that it is the accumulation of toxic fluids in the breast ducts which MAY trigger breast cancer and that DRAINING them MAY prevent it.
Hopefully this type of exchange will get other people to consider and evaluate this idea.
You are right that the prevention of ALL ductal breast cancer MAY not be as simple as women PUMPING and DRAINING their breast ducts on a regular basis, but it is also POSSIBLE and logical that it MAY . The point is that it is a theory which is so intuitive and so simple it appeals to my global "big picture" approach to medical problems and it is an observation which makes so much sense it at least warrants serious investigation.
I like to say that this theory about breast cancer is a specific application of the general adage that 'CLEANLINESS IS NEXT TO GODLINESS" and that perhaps keeping ALL of our different types of "plumbing" clean could help prevent many types of diseases.
Obviously many breast cancers may have complex multi-factorial causes and triggers and these cannot be resolved by this idea alone. However, my position is that becasue of the epedemic proportions of this disease there must be some simple universal phenomenom which is responsible for the vast majority of such cases and that whatever the source of the toxic fluid is in the breasts, getting it out MAY prevent breast cancer from triggering in the first place.
The evidence to corroborate my theory about this is mounting. Firstly, many cancer advocates such as the MONTREAL BREAST CANCER ACTION COMMITTEE have adopted the position that the TOXINS in the atmosphere and in the food chain are the source of the controverting agents which trigger cancers in general and breast cancer in particular. Also, in my wife's case I recently learned that having an "inverted nipple" is a further risk factor. Such a nipple has a hard time draining normally and this would further support the theory that it is the accumulation of toxic fluids in the breast ducts which MAY trigger breast cancer and that DRAINING them MAY prevent it.
Hopefully this type of exchange will get other people to consider and evaluate this idea.
Some people I have talked to, especially in the field of massage and PT (Physical therapy) believe that lymphatic massage of the breasts should be as routine as a massage is by itself for some people. (or a normal part of a whole body massage) That does make sense to me as well, as far as massage is concerned. I mean if someone believes in the therapeutics of massage itself, I think it would be natural to also address the lymph system, and especially surrounding the breasts and not leaving out that area on purpose because it's just too 'private' to touch.
I was thinking that perhaps you were thinking about the lymphatic system when you talk about fluids and toxins, because that is what the lymphatic system does. it is also true that this major important system has pretty much been ignored in the US and little about it is taught in Medical School.
I was thinking that perhaps you were thinking about the lymphatic system when you talk about fluids and toxins, because that is what the lymphatic system does. it is also true that this major important system has pretty much been ignored in the US and little about it is taught in Medical School.
Well, wouldn't it be wonderful if it were that simple ...... it's not !!
I'm not sure about the "toxic fluid" you mention. Milk ducts do produce fluid though it isn't thought of as "toxic". There are many factors that increase a woman's risk for developing breast cancer and IDC is truly the most prevelant. Even mammograms are on the list of factors that increase the risk of cancer. With the various factors about each cancer (hormone + or -) and many others CURE is #1 on the list. One thing we have learned fairly recently is that the hormone replacement therapy that has been so popular for many years is one cause and the number of cases has dropped dramatically since these drugs are not being prescribed as often. As for your idea of having ductal lavage or even ductectomy; women could also have mastectomies except that doesn't mean that you can't still develop breast cancer.
Breast discharge does NOT cause cancer.
We aren't cars that need our oil changed every 3 months or 3000 miles .... we are women who have, or had use for those fluids in the ducts you suggest putting on a routine maintenence schedule.
I'm not sure about the "toxic fluid" you mention. Milk ducts do produce fluid though it isn't thought of as "toxic". There are many factors that increase a woman's risk for developing breast cancer and IDC is truly the most prevelant. Even mammograms are on the list of factors that increase the risk of cancer. With the various factors about each cancer (hormone + or -) and many others CURE is #1 on the list. One thing we have learned fairly recently is that the hormone replacement therapy that has been so popular for many years is one cause and the number of cases has dropped dramatically since these drugs are not being prescribed as often. As for your idea of having ductal lavage or even ductectomy; women could also have mastectomies except that doesn't mean that you can't still develop breast cancer.
Breast discharge does NOT cause cancer.
We aren't cars that need our oil changed every 3 months or 3000 miles .... we are women who have, or had use for those fluids in the ducts you suggest putting on a routine maintenence schedule.
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