After being cured from Chronic Renal Failure - convalescence and related problems

Discuss about cat convalescence after having being cured from CRF.

Hello, my 19yo cat cured from CRF, but I'll have to continue treatment. And I don't know if after being cured, if she shall continue treatment or not, because usually cats don't get cured of CRF.

She'll soon re-start her treatment: Renalzin + Probiavi probiotics, Renalzin made her Phosphorus get lower and the probiotics made her Urea get lower, and both made the Creatinine get back to normal levels:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/waterreedshimmer/4970322673/

- I don't know if it's good to wait for her probiotics to arrive before re-start ?
- I don't know if low urea is dangerous ?
- I don't know if low phosphorus is dangerous ?
- I don't know if there is something in her kidney that didn't cure ?

Renalzin = Lanthanum carbonate (Human Renalzin in France is called Fosrenol, but you must have the same medicine with another name in UK and USA)

Probiavi contains =

Pediococcus Acidophilus
Bifido lactis
Bifido Longdum
Lactobacillus Acidophillus
Streptococcus Thermophilus
S.Cervisiae (yeast)
FOS (Fructo oligo sacharide)
And a little dextrose (food grade)

And there is also another problem, I pass my time trying to contact a researcher that can tell me if it is possible that one of her probiotics bacteria has mutated into one that can cure cat kidney cancer or contains a new virus that can cure CRF ? And I also think that if such bacteria or virus exists, it comes from Canada and it travels in USA through Psyllium Husk that are prebiotics, that means food for bacteria. But I still did not have a positive answer from any researcher. It is important because cure for CRF, or at least mega toxin eater that lowers Urea, cannot be into a volatil compound that has not been identified and whose presence depends on luck.

If there isn't such mutated bacteria nor virus, it's only the treatment that worked. Some humans also can cure from it.

I also have no vet knowledge and am a simple pet owner.

[DonnaYav]

abnormal low levels of phosphorus indicate dietary imbalance, Diabetes or overactive parathyroid gland.

low levels of blood urea nitrogen can indicate Liver disease or starvation..

I am not saying that possibly you ran across something that has actually "cured" your cat but as we all know if your cat has Renal failure there is no cure only things we can give them to help and to slow down progression..

Renal failure usually is not caught till the cat starts showing symptoms like Excessive water intake, frequent urination, vomiting, constipation, Diarrhea, loss of appetite, etc.

Sometimes if a cat is dehydrated or has an infection their bun and creatine levels can go up and then come down after treatment..

That's all I know, I also am not a vet  but a pet owner who has also lost one of her cats due to a four year battle with CRF...

[opus88]

Fran I agree with Donna, CRF can only be controlled not cured, your efforts have gone a long long way towards keeping kitty as healthy as he can be and hopefully will be with you for a long time yet.
I too lost my dear Opus 5yr ago  to CRF he too had a 3 yr battle, with medications and many trips to the city to a special clinic....I wasn't even on a computer back 5 yrs ago, otherwise I know I could have done many things different for him back than....we learn as we go and can't change the past.
keep up the great work!!

♥Opus

[DonnaYav]

I agree totally, I have learned more about CRF after I lost my calico kitty over a year and a half ago, we learn from mistakes, that is for sure..
Keep up the good work..

[francoise_peace]

I hope she doesn't have liver disease. She'll only see her vet in 2 months. Her eyes have always been yellowish, there has never been white in them because it is a cat eye, they are one single back color + black | , so I can't tell if she is more yellow. I had a similar problem because of Gilbert disease x stress, but I didn't get yellow, but I'm not sure. Furthermore with all her fur, I can't tell neither if her skin is more yellow. I don't think her tong is unusual although she licks herself fast.

She is waiting a little before going on treatment. Probiotics didn't came.

Without the treatment her appetite is getting better. Although she only eats in the morning, now she is eating twice in the morning. Could be a starvation problem because she is overweight.
-
I'm giving her Whiskas cat milk, I hope it's good for the bones because it has vitamin D, taurine, and calcium. And my mother is also taking milk with vitamin D.

[DonnaYav]

I would say it could possibly be diet related..You see most kidney prescription diets are actually too low in protein, I have to disagree with professionals that still cling to the old knowledge of "low Protein" for a renal failure cat(I have read that those low protein diets cause malnutrition and muscle wasting)..My cat gets a high quality, low carb, no grain canned cat food and her BUN (blood urea nitrogen) levels are still high but have come down from 60 to 50 and her Creatinine remains the same, 2.8..
The object is, the quality of the protein, no By-products, no synthetic additives or fillers, this takes extra stress off of the cat's kidneys..

[francoise_peace]

I just found her past weight (30 July -> 8 September): 4.5 -> 3.250
Normally loosing weight should height her creatinine. Else there was a problem with the machine, else it's something with her (cured or wrong diagnostic).

Probiotics lasted: 6 August to 2 September 2010, new ones didn't came. I restarted Renalzin phosphate binder today the 16th September, I had stopped the 2th September.

She went to vet: 24 June, 30 July, 8 September
Her Crea levels mg/L did 23.3 - 26.8 - 21.8
It's only her Urea that had significant variations g/L: 0,524 - 0,774 - 0,308

I really think the Kidney food wasn't good for her health. But I don't know what is good. Now she is with Royal Canin Renal Special (because she wants it more than K/D with no taste) mixed with some Science Hills Senior big croccroc. And Science Hills 7+ wet turkey.

" the quality of the protein, no By-products, no synthetic additives or fillers, this takes extra stress off of the cat's kidneys " I agree. Tell me names ?

Yes diet related problems may explain Urea significant variation. But she is eating more then before but less than when she was overweight.

[francoise_peace]

And I have a 2 high Urea problem in the past:

19 sept 2009
urea 0.770
crea 17.7

26 nov 2009 (not my vet)
urea 0.849
crea 19.1

http://www.labtestsonline.org.au/understanding/analytes/urea/test.html
Urea levels increase with age and also with the amount of protein in your diet. High-protein diets may cause abnormally high urea levels. Very low-protein diets can cause abnormally low urea.

Yes, shes was having a pack of about 10 Sheba Chicken with true slices when she had the 30 July high Urea. And the abnormal  low Urea is due to KIdney food that also might have lower her weight (I don't know why ?).

So food has a lot to do with health !!!

[opus88]

hi Fran this will be short, I'm in a rush this a.m and will try and give a brief reply to the postings.
I agree with animals as wiht ppl food has a great deal to do with our health.
Sorry I can't answer your renal questions.
I can give you a site from dr. Lisa Pierson that does give a list of good no grain high protein foods.
she is full of info on nutritiion, I'm not sure if she has any specific info on Kidney diets tho? good luck, you are doing a super job!!

www.catinfo.org

[francoise_peace]

Please take care of your life.

I do not wish to hurry you. I have more time to spend on internet than you, so I do not wish to eat your precious time with your job, your home and your cat.

My sister thinks that her levels variation is due to the fact that she is old, and sometimes her kidney works, sometimes her kidney doesn't work. This would explain Creatinine variations, if she has Chronic Renal Failure because of aging and not because of phosphorus or other disease. My sister doesn't think she is cured, she thinks she is old, and that's what is causing all the health problems. And she says: you cannot cure from aging.

And I had the Sheba Chicken percents %, phosphorus levels are good in the food, but since it is true sllices, it is protein levels that are not good in the food and that can higher Urea levels:

SHEBA® dômes au blanc de poulet (chicken breast):

Teneurs moyennes pour 100 g de produit (per 100g)
Matières grasses (FAT): 0,8 g
Proteines : 12,7 g
Phosphore : 0,06 g
Sodium : 0,02 g

Furthermore since yesterday the 16th September she is back on Renalzin and 1/2 Fortekor.

Right now she has:
- Royal Canin Renal Special mixed with Science Hills 7+ big crocroc that she doesn't always eats.
- Science Hills wet with turkey 7+

I don't like the idea of 7+ on a 19+ cat.

[francoise_peace]

Thank you for the website, it recommended wet food with no grain. My cat PH was 6.2 than 6. I'll try to measure it later because I am afraid of CaO. (Cat PH is 6 - 6.5 more means too much carbohydrates, less too much meat / ph paper sold for fish aquarium is less expensive than for saliva and it is the same paper).

:) Take your time.

[francoise_peace]

I'm thinking about Complete Probiotics Powder for Pets since Probiavi didn't arrive and sellers told me there was an hygienic problem: they tried to convince me you can freeze a product that has thawed (has de-freeze) for me to buy more product and they don't want to send a 48H carbon-ice package, just the same thing that gets wet on the way. I think it didn't arrive because Canada Post must have trown away a wet package. And even if their probiotics are good, I won't trust their travelling hygien anymore.

I still don't have a job, it's going to be a hard investment, but it's GMP certified.
http://probiotics.mercola.com/probiotics-for-pets.html

[francoise_peace]

Shipping of USA probiotics is between 29 to 35$, I'll try to convince Probiavi to pay extra for good shipping.

[francoise_peace]

Probiavi told me they prefer giving money back than paying extra for better shipping. So I'll have about 30euros to spend in another probiotics. Mine where too expensive and bacterial quantity not indicated. I asked Mercola what is included in their about 30euros shipping? Is it refrigerated? I could try asking my pharmacy, because in France all medicine is pharmaceutical, they don't sell like that over the net.

I hope I did the good choice, because I can't go on saying I'm happy, I look stupid if I act like that. No one I know will act as stupid as I do. Becoming intelligent is difficult. My family wouldn't have accepted anyway that I give to the cat something that has been out there for 12 days now.

[opus88]

Franc why don't you use the powdered form?...this is the one I get for Nemo. I order it from the US (into Canada) for an international shipment fee of $12...arrives in less than a week and no worries about spoilage. this one is SAFE for pet use, info from holistic sources.
http://www.iherb.com/Culturelle-Culturelle-Probiotic-30-Veggie-Caps/7797?at=0

[francoise_peace]

Hey, thanks !
I also asked a question on Yahoo Question-Answers:
http://*****************/question/index?qid=20100918142917AA7E2n1

I think it's important to have opinion of people that have tested it on their cats. Since I'm kind of parano about my cat's health. Yes, I'm really worried about shipment time because I'm not a doctor to know if what a seller says is relevant for a more than one week shipment (last time I didn't complain about it arriving wet, I thought: bacteria breathing, it's not me that have told to me that wet was no good for bacterias, it was the sellers mistake, and I didn't force him to tell me nonsense), and my mother is working on fast food, they throw away all food if they not sell within next hours, and I already got a food infection in a normal restaurant. So if my cat has a liver problem, bad bacteria could harm her, because I'm not sure they invented injections for cat stopping vomiting or removing toxins (they don't even do it for kidney). And I had a dog that was killed with poison by a thief, and one of my cats that died because/related to of the fluids (that can also save cats), I felt the infection getting on him and making him cold.

I don't think I am a bad buyer if I just buy for my beloved cat, and I think I deserve attention and understanding if I am worried of the future. Perhaps I am exagerated, perhaps I am not but only I can't proof I could dominate situation like a man does, but I can't change how I am. Perhaps I'm exasperating. I always talk too much :D

[francoise_peace]

Seeing the dry that has probiotics included (cheaper and better):

> ORIJEN Cat Food (zooplus):
Fresh chicken (boned), chicken meat, dry turkey, russet potatoes, freshly caught salmon (boned) (natural source of DHA and EPA), dry herring, sweet potatoes, fresh whitefish (boned), peas, fresh perch, chicken fat, chicken liver, salmon meal, fresh turkey (boned), fresh eggs, fresh herring (boned), sun-dried alfalfa, salmon oil, chicory root, kelp, squash, carrots, spinach, apples, cranberries, juneberries, blackcurrants, choline chloride, psyllium, licorice, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, fennel, peppermint leaves, chamomile flowers, dandelion, summer savoury, rosemary extract, sea salt, high-quality vitamins (vitamin E, choline chloride, vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin B1, vitamin B12, folic acid, biotin), minerals (zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese, copper , selenium), Lactobacillus acidophilus, Enterococcus faecium

> Taste of The Wild (zooplus.com.uk):
Dried chicken meat, peas, sweet potatoes, chicken fat, potato protein, roasted venison, smoked salmon, natural flavouring, ocean fish meal, methionine, potassium chloride, taurine, choline chloride, dried chicory root, tomatoes, blueberries, raspberries, yucca schidigera extract, Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus casei and Lactobacillus plantarum, dried Trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, vitamins (A, B1, B2, B6, B12, C, D, E), minerals ((iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, manganese proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, manganese sulphate), potassium iodide, manganous oxide, biotin, calcium pantothenate, sodium selenite, folic acid.

>Acana Grasslands Cat Food
Boneless lamb, lamb meal, salmon meal, russet potato, herring meal, chicken meal, peas, sweet potato, boneless duck, salmon oil, chicken fat (naturally preserved with vitamin E), boneless walleye, dried chicken liver, sun-cured alfalfa, whole egg, pumpkin, spinach, turnip greens, tomatoes, carrots, apples, organic kelp, cranberries, blueberries, juniper berries, blackcurrants, chicory root, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile flowers, lavender flowers, summer savory, rosemary, vitamin A, Vitamin D3, Vitamin E, niacin, Zinc proteinate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, vitamin B5, Iron proteinate, vitamin B6, maganese proteinate, copper proteinate, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12, selenium, dried lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product.

Without probiotics:

> Happy Cat Fit & Well Best Age 10+
Maize, poultry meal (10%), greaves (9.5%), rice flour, poultry fat, salmon meal (4%), beef fat, lamb meal (2.5%), hydrolysed liver, sugar beet slices, dried liver, apple pomace (dried) (1%), powdered egg, sodium chloride, yeast (dried), potassium chloride, barley (fermented) (0.2%), seaweed (dried) (0.15%), linseed (0.15%), yeast extract, chicory root extract (0.04%), mussel meat (dried) (0.02%), artichokes, dandelion, ginger, birch leaves, nettles, sage, coriander, rosemary, thyme, liquorice root, chamomile, meadowsweet, wild garlic. (Herbs in total: 0.1%)

> Happy Cat Fit & Well Grain-Free Adult
Poultry meal (29%), potato flakes (29 %), greaves (8.5%), potato protein (6%), poultry fat, beef fat, sugar beet molasses, hydrolysed liver, apple pomace (dried), dried liver, yeast (dried), linseed, sodium chloride, seaweed (dried), yeast extract, yucca shidigera (0.03%)

> Eukanuba Senior
Chicken (>30%), chicken liver (>15%), maize grits, maize, fish meal, sorghum, poultry meal, dried beet pulp, dried whole egg, poultry digest, poultry fat, brewer's dried yeast, fructooligosaccharides, potassium chloride, DL-methionine, sodium chloride, borage oil, glucosamine HCl, chondroitin sulphate, marigold extract

> That should interest donna: http://www.gripetfoods.com/PetFoodoftheYear.htm
Orijen is the pet food of the year for 3 years now, in low glycemia.

[francoise_peace]

Perhaps if I buy one Taste of the wild dry ?
I already have wet food at home (Science Hills).

About Taurine french Wikipedia says the strict opposite of english Websites ( ???) so is Taurine good for liver and kidney ?

-> Consumption of taurine is not recommended for children, pregnant women or those suffering from liver and / or kidneys. In addition, people with heart problems or tension should not consume more than 2 cans containing taurine week. ???

Gimpet Schnurries "Purries" with Taurine & Salmon
Milk & dairy products, oils & fats, yeast, dehydrated salmon (4%), egg and egg products, vegetable by-products, lactose derivative with TGOS (1%), minerals.
Dyed with EC additives
Vitamin A (7,140 IU/kg), vitamin E (19.65 mg/kg), vitamin B2 (7.74 mg/kg), vitamin D3 (1,420 IU/kg), vitamin B1 (1.78 mg/kg), vitamin B6 (9.52 mg/kg), taurine (2,000 mg/kg).

Gimpet Schnurries "Purries" with Taurine & Chicken
Milk and dairy products, oils & fats, yeast, dehydrated chicken (4%), egg and egg products, vegetable by-products, lactose derivative with TGOS (1%), minerals.
Vitamin A (7,140 IU/kg), vitamin E (19.65 mg/kg), vitamin B2 (7.74 mg/kg), vitamin D3 (1,420 IU/kg), vitamin B1 (1.78 mg/kg), vitamin B6 (9.52 mg/kg), taurine (2,000 mg/kg).  

Gimpet Taurine Tablets
Vitamin A 7.140 IU., vitamin D3 1.420 IU, vitamin E 19.6 mg, vitamin B1 1.7 mg, vitamin B2 7.7 mg, vitamin B6 9.5 mg, vitamin B12 19.6 mcg, vitamin K3 1.1 mg, taurine 50.000 mg

Felini Taurine
Taurine (2- aminoethanesulphonic acids)
Taurine content: 99.44%
pH-level: 4.5 – 6.0

[francoise_peace]

I'm thinking about Taste of The Wild dry with probiotics included + Gimpet Taurine, not sure wich one.

I researched about Taurine, it's good for liver:
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/taurine-dangers-of-taurine.html
"Animal studies on taurine have pointed out that, it can remove fatty deposits from the liver in rats. This in turn, might prove helpful in preventing the diseases of the liver including, liver cirrhosis. Taurine is present in the heart muscles and it may help to stabilize the heart rhythm. It may be beneficial in conditions like, high blood pressure, bipolar depression, cardiovascular and heart disease, high level of cholesterol and edema. Many also attribute antioxidant and immune boosting properties to taurine. Find out more about taurine benefits.

"Even effects of long term use of taurine is not known with certainty. However, it is considered that prolonged use of taurine supplements is not healthy. Synthetic taurine is supposed to have an association with conditions like, stroke, high blood pressure and seizure"

I think I need more Taurine than my cat.

She doesn't have anymore constipation, she is much more better than before. But she drinks a lot. But what is new is that she is more sensitive to cold and need to cover herself.

Anyway I read a lot that to prevent crystals acid -PH yellow (oxalate that needs operation) or basic -PH blue (struvit that can be cured, but if you overdose medical crocroc for struvit, struvit transforms into oxalate), it is important that the cat eats more wet than dry.

And about corporation/enterprises, they're the same thing then boyfriends, although I only had mostly platonic ones, first they want you to tell everyone they are the best, then they mix your name with some other woman name, then they dagger you, then they want to offer you a present. So the important for a woman is to show them they can be replaced. You don't need to be impolite, because you exist to have good goodbye presents. My probiotics didn't arrive (16 days waiting). So it can't be a present, but my repayment will be my present. Usually guys are better at thinking goodbye presents than welcome presents. That's all about Probiavi side effects that prefered woman that buy 1kg probiotics than one that buy 50g, and that mistake me for one that buy 100g.

And as a vegetarian, I think I need more Taurine than my cat, I'll speek to mum :)

[francoise_peace]

They put one of my letters about the mutated bacteria on web news, I asked them to remove my e-mail and my postal address (what ?!)
http://www.art2vivre.fr/14.html

:) I feel like laughing, but it's something. It means people are asking themself questions.

[francoise_peace]

PH: 6.2 - Monday 20 September 2010 -> so no renal calculus
(pHydrion 5.5 to 8.0 bought at an aquarium store)

The picture is NOT of my cat but of an European cat. My cat breed is European. I prefer not to criticize the photo, because usually when I write a scientific article, people want to put their own photo, and when I argue, it had caused in the past (in geology field) big problems. So it's important not to argue about photos.

They removed my e-mail and postal address and added that: the text only engages my opinion, good. That's important for credibility related with interpretation.

[francoise_peace]

Do we live in a world that turns round ?

Taste of the Wild (processed with purified water !) and Gimpet salmon with taurine (not sure this one is good because it contains minerals) did arrive !

But someone stole the welcome present. I don't care. But I understood that it was to make me think the probiotics were stolen. But it isn't the same shipper. But it's stupid to steal a probiotics, they should steal instead the separed bags Probiavi uses to create their probiotics in Canada not in France. Anyway I don't need anymore their probiotics because there are in the dry food.

I think I agree with the ideas of Taste of the Wild - all better things in one (antioxydants, vitamins, probiotics, purified water,...) - and I hope to stabilise her health.

**

I hope your cats will have some years to live. Please take good care of them and enjoy last moments of your lifes together. I agree with vets that it is important that they feel well. About food I did gave kidney, but I also think it is important that they have a meal they like, with taste and all cat's vitamins, but that isn't only protein made.

But don't forget the phosphate binder, when it lowers phosphorus, we feel a lot safer with food, and we can give more normal food that isn't only proteins.

[francoise_peace]

Today Minou is sick, she had big diarrhea with vomiting, she went to the vet and had an injection, and will go back again tomorrow.

Vet thinks it is due to changing food habits. She mustn't eat until night. She mustn't eat wet food. And she mustn't eat dry food bought on the internet.

Yesterday I measured her PH with PH paper under her, 6.0, OK.

[opus88]

hi, perhaps you tried to make too many changes all at once to Minou's diet??
remember to transition slowly their systems need a while to cope with changes.

Her PH is excellent!!

Hope she recovers quickly. keep us posted.

♥Opus

[francoise_peace]

She went to the vet.

It was perhaps her changing diet that caused diarrhea. So she is forbidden of Science Hills wet canned food and Taste of the Wild dry all-vitamins-in-one food. I didn't gave to the vet her food names.

Advice from the vet:
- Stay with her usual cat food.
- Food with vitamins isn't good for kidney.
- It's not good to change food habits.
- Avoid wet canned food.
- If her favorite food is Renal diet, you can go on.
- If it is written on kidney food 2-4 months, it must be for dissolving renal calculus. (And indeed Royal Canin is - thanks god not for Struvite - because her PH is yellow to green and not green to blue - but for calcium oxalate - so it higher alkalinity, that's what I have read on the box).

So my cat prescription is continue with her favorite kidney diet dry food:
Royal Canin Renal Special

And I forgot to talk about her PH, but he cut her nails, and I only asked him how to cut them ? So nice !

Her blood analysis will be done next month.

Other problem: because of diarrhea, her head is now always looking down, vet said must be because she forced a lot yesterday and it hurted her vertebral column.

Anyway she drank by herself 3 times yesterday, eated by 17h, and drank today on the morning, and eated a little bit.

But she lost weight: 3kg100, before it was 3kg250, before it was 4kg500 but, I musn't change her food because change will be:
1) No good for her kidney.
2) No good for her bowel.

Old cats are very complicated and very sensitive about food, it seems that food can control in very short time their health ! So be cautious with food experiments, it's not because a food is good and have everything a cat needs, that it can be good for an old cat.

And now I really think that what causes diarrhea or constipation is not food in itself, but food changing. Cats musn't change food habits that work with them. Even if we think there isn't enough vitamins in it, or if there is maize in it.

[francoise_peace]

I've decided to give again Cosequin to her because her articulations are very painfull. But I'll give it short time, till I have some results.

[Piparskeggr]

Heya;

Lots of good advice...

Our kitty, Calamity Jane Grey, was diagnosed with kidney problems at the age of 18 1/2 or so.

Big thing we did was to have the vet show us how to give her sub-q supplemental fluids, which was the treatment he'd been giving her.  We got needles and an IV bag of Ringer's from him.

We gave Cammie 50 -75 ml, 2 - 3 times a week, which was what she needed.

What finally got her was a pair of strokes about 2 weeks apart.  She was 21 years 4 months old when we brought her to the vet for the Final Visit; took my wife on a 1/4 mile walk a few days before the 1st stroke.

Cammie's sister Queen Victoria made it to 17 1/2...heart attack the vet said, while she was sleeping.

best of luck - Pip

[francoise_peace]

That's very sad. But at least she lived until 21yo witch is a lot for a cat. I hope mine will live some extra years.

And indeed, I am afraid of heart attack because she takes the bus to go to the vet, and this is stressing. And I am also afraid of Fortekor. The vet listen to her heart each time we go there, but we can never know. If a cat has a heart attack and we see, I think we can do, very softly artificial respiration, but we cannot expire all of our breath CO2+O2 in her lungs, because they are small, and our air could explode them like a balloon.

-
I want to speak about fish, I don't understand much about medicine, looking at my own human blood tests (not my cat's): on 08/03/2010 I had low urea and low-limit creatinine, I didn't test the urea again but mine might be lower now. My creatinine is on 29/09/2010 5mg/L, human norm is 6 - 15mg/L. I don't know what it means, but although I'll only have my cat blood levels made next month, it's not impossible that her urea is still negative like mine, and I hope her creatinine have lowered like mine, but my cat's creatinine is surely in normal levels unlike mine (hope it won't be positive again).

And I am a vegetarian that eats fish and eggs. So that means FISH is safe for creatinine levels, at least in humans. My mother don't like me being vegetarian so I eat fish 2 to 6 days a week. So your cat can eat fish just like he eats chicken (unless you think fish is contaminated with mercury or other pollution).

-
But anyway I don't advise to change cat food habits often. I tried a slow transition on mine by mixing foods but it didn't work.

-
And today she is walking with her head up, so she has less pain, it took 4days for her to recover from diarrhea (in what concerns vertebral column pain related to effort on old bones), I'll try to give Cosequin for 3 consecutive days, I had given before yesterday, but yesterday I was out all day, and today she still didn't ate it because it glues on her moustache, but she'll eat it when she wakes up.

And I still give her low mineralised water, in wich mineral levels are less or identical to tap water that goes into pipeline.

[francoise_peace]

Today, diarrhea again, I went to the vet and throw out all canned food. The first 12 small cans of wet Science Hills Senior Turkey were OK, but the 12 others, the 2 new opened cans gave her diarrhea last week and this week, so it might be tainted. Although I bought them in the vet and not online, these cans travels from USA I suppose. Could have been the trip.

So I have her new blood levels:
CREA 26,1mg/L high (max is 24)
UREA 0,651g/L normal
PHOS 46,93 mg/L normal

He also did plenty of other blood tests like GR, HGB, VGM, etc. like mine and they were fine, better than mine, although I don't have nothing, I only had multi-vitamins.

So the vet said, she is OK, go on with the food.

This time when she had diarrhea, I put her to sleep with me, so that she do less effort, so that her anus be less red. So she only had about 1/4 of the injection she had last time.

I'm still worried. I'll be less worried tomorrow when she calm down.

[opus88]

when did you change from the Renal Canin special diet to Science Diet????
Did the diarrhea start after the change???

I'm sorry I really have to disagree with your Vet......from everything I read, Dry food is an absolute NO NO for CRF cats...I can't understand why Your Vet tells you otherwise??

♥Opus

[francoise_peace]

I agree with you, vet says no wet food at all. I don't know what's her problem with wet food, since she ate well Renal K/D wet. I did try to change from dry Royal Canin to dry Science Hills when she was better, but she didn't like dry Science Hills, so I kept dry Royal Canin. She also had eaten dry Science Hills K/D when she was more sick, but she preferred the taste of Royal Canin.

In what concerns wet, before she had Science Hills K/D wet, then I bought the Turkey Senior when she was better. She ate about one month of Science Hills Senior Turkey wet before getting this sort of diarrhea each time she tries it.

I'd give her other types of dry food, but right now I can't. I intend to give her again Happy Cat dry renal diet.

It could also be due to long-term Renalzin. Or to having stopped the probiotics. Her bowel is too sensitive.

[francoise_peace]

I was wondering if I should buy Azodyl or Mercola for her ?

[francoise_peace]

I just spent about 45euros (63USD) of probiotics of Mercola for my cat, it is a lot to me (even too much). I never bought something even for me at that price...

And I choosed UPS since I was stolen in my past 2 online order. I had this problem with Probiavi probiotics that never came and they got angry with me because they aren't a big shop, so they say: we don't sell no more to not satisfied client, and that problem with Zooplus that gave me a big coupon discount since it was only the welcome gift they had stolen, but unless Probiavi, they apology for article being stolen.

What ? I'm not responsible if I get stolen !

UPS is kind of expensive, but probiotics are kind of expensive too, and I don't want no one putting their dirty hands on it before my cat has it ! I had enough of opened packages ! Imagine they put their knife on it, then I'll loose all the probiotics powder... I never have ever received anything, where stupid people have verified the content and I had enough of this ! But I still don't have a job to change my shipping preferences in all products, so this UPS is an exception.

I do not believe they open packages for vigipirate plan, but just to steel articles they want for themselves and they think we are not going to complain because they suppose we can't complain. Shippment is really a problem.

And I don't want problems.

She isn't eating much, and I am worried ! But I hope that if Mercola is sincere, and if there is no package infraction, their product will help again !

[francoise_peace]

I'm worried with her not eating, I just started today Whiskas cat milk.

I thought about Liquivit, but it's canned. I'm try to understand Royal Canin:
http://www.royalcanin.co.uk/vet/clinical_diets/feline_clinical_diets.aspx
# Convalescence Support
# Convalescence Support Instant
# Recovery
# Rehydration Support Instant

She is having Virbac nutri-plus gel, it's a Virbac paste with vitamins. She is drinking a lot pf water. Not sure she'll drink water with support instant.

I'm still not understanding Royal Canin products... ??? Is this instant powder with water good ? Or is it better food ?

[francoise_peace]

I am not understanding what should I buy for her if she has CRF + IBD ?

http://www.royalcanin.co.uk/vet/clinical_diets/feline_clinical_diets/gastro-intestinal_mod_cal_wet.aspx
Gastro-Intestinal Moderate Calorie Wet
Gastro Intestinal Moderate Calorie Wet Cat Diet

Veterinary diets are formulated for the nutritional support of cats with specific clinical conditions and are recommended to be used under veterinary advice. For more information on feeding Gastro-Intestinal Moderate Calorie Wet to your cat, please consult your veterinary surgeon.



Gastro-Intestinal Moderate Calorie Wet is for the nutritional support of cats in cases of:

- Acute and chronic diarrhoea

- Inflammatory Bowel Disease (IBD)

- Maldigestion, malabsorption

- Colitis

- Bacterial overgrowth

- Gastritis

- Pancreatitis

- Exudative enteropathy

[francoise_peace]

She is having vitamins (virbac), she started milk (whiskas), she'll have the Mercola probiotics.

In the past she had constipation, and in the recent past she had acute diarrhea.

She is not eating, what should she eat ?

In what to thrust ?

[francoise_peace]

I just discovered I have Nutriplus Gel, not Nutriplus Cat without phosphorus...

[francoise_peace]

I'm thinking about Kattovit sensitive mono-protein fish ?

[francoise_peace]

http://************.com/help-with-my-sick-pet/cat-with-ibd-i-need-food-advice-t669.0.html
Says: http://products.royalcanin.us/products/veterinary/feline/green-peas-and-venison-formula.aspx

I'll only have time to think about it in 2 days.

[francoise_peace]

Or cook her some white fish ? I'll ask mother to buy white fish.

[francoise_peace]

I have choosed: http://www.royalcanin.us/cats/Veterinary_Diets.aspx
GREEN PEAS & DUCK FORMULA

The only problem is high protein, but I think she needs some. Now where to buy it? I think I'll go to the vet.

RENAL LP
Protein g 55.2 56.0
Fat g 72.8 67.5
Crude Fiber g 1.5 5.8
Total Dietary Fiber g 4.9 13.2
Carbohydrate g 42.9 54.0
Calcium g 2.4 1.8
Phosphorus g 0.8 0.8
Sodium g 0.5 0.7
Chloride g 0.7 0.9
Potassium g 2.0 2.3
Magnesium g 0.2 0.1
x
GREEN PEAS & DUCK FORMULA
Protein g 87.5 102.6
Fat g 36.3 61.2
Crude Fiber g 8.3 3.4
Total Dietary Fiber g 31.5 7.5
Carbohydrate g 92.6 21.5
Calcium g 3.6 2.8
Phosphorus g 3.6 2.2
Sodium g 1.9 1.2
Chloride g 1.5 1.3
Potassium g 2.1 2.4
Magnesium g 0.3 0.2

[francoise_peace]

Conclusion:

Science Hills 7+ food is bad for 19yo cat: dry is too big and wet irritates bowel.
Science Hills K/D wet is good for 19yo cat: it protects both kidney with low protein and low phosphorus and bowel with psyllium husk that aids both diarrhea and constipation.

After 18yo, cats should eat something that is usefull for both kidney values and stomach & bowel sensitivity. Because they all get CRF and all suffer from various digestion problems (exigent/allergic/sensitive cats, constipation, diarrhea, IBS...) probably due to cereals (maize, etc.) and due to existence of several animal protein sources mixed together (chicken+pig+fish+beef+...). But this kind of food wasn't invented yet.

My cat had two diarrheas due to food changing, it could have killed her if I wasn't there with her all day. Last time she begin eating by herself, but not this time. She was having Virbac vitamin paste and Whiskas cat milk (for proteins and because she isn't allergic to it because it is a specific cat milk), but today, 5 days later (no it's not good to wait that much), she had in the morning white fish mixed with her vitamin paste, and now she just had Science Hills K/D wet in syringe in her mouth. She likes the taste of Science Hills K/D wet (but not of the dry) although she preferred Science Hills 7+ wet that wasn't good for her. I hope she'll get her strength back.

When cat is not eating, empty syringe can be bought either in pharmacy either at vet's. Buy 10 of them of the biggest ones because you can put wet pet food + water inside. And throw out the nail, because you use it as baby bottle. I already had from last cat.

Now for the diarrhea, from now on, as long as we don't have the new IBS food:
- Virbac vitamin paste
- Whiskas cat milk
- Hills renal K/D wet (because she didn't have no problems with it)
+ medicine for CRF: Renalzin to lower phosphorus and Fortekor for protein absorption.

About Fortekor, she wasn't eating the dry food, so she wasn't eating it, but I'm going to mix it to wet K/D tonight.
About Renalzin, now that she's having syringue, if necessary to continue forcing, she'll have it not on mouth but mixed with morning wet food.

About syringue, it works next to mouth, like a baby bottle, let her eat the food that goes out little by little and stop sometimes for better mastication/chewing and respiration. And it's important that wet food is liquid (ex: knead with wood kneader if no robot) and mixed with low mineralized water. Also important to put cleaning tissues/paper around the cat.

Today I couldn't order new wet food because of transport strike. Vet was closed. I don't know if I did a good choice but next she'll have:
  ###############################################################
### Royal Canin Vet Exclusive Vet diet GREEN PEAS & DUCK FORMULA ###
   ###############################################################

Because it's the one that (unless I compared too fast) has less phosphorus and a little bit less proteins and suggests an animal that a cat could hunt. But I'm not sure if protein levels are OK or too elevated for CRF?

Indications:
(...)
Adverse food reactions which may present with the following
gastrointestinal signs:
• Vomiting
• Diarrhea
• Inflammatory bowel disease

Additional Differences:
Enriched with antioxidants to help maintain a healthy immune system and to reduce DNA damage associated with aging.

Notes:
• No other protein sources should be made available while feeding ROYAL CANIN Veterinary Diet® feline GREEN PEAS & DUCK FORMULA™ dry or DUCK FORMULA™ in gel can

---> She never ated duck, why don't they do chicken or fish ?

Selected Protein:
The protein in the diet is provided by green
peas and duck, which are rarely associated
with adverse food reactions in cats

Skin Barrier: +++++++++++++++++++++ good for CRF
Optimal amounts of B vitamins and amino acids
help reduce transepidermal water losses and
strengthen the barrier effect of the skin

EPA and DHA:
Eicosapentaenoic and docosahexaenoic acids are
long chain omega-3 fatty acids that promote a
healthy skin and coat

Natural Preservative: Naturally preserved

Ingredients of Royal Canin canned food for IBS (Irritated Bowel Syndrom (syndrome)):
ROYAL CANIN Veterinary Diet® feline DUCK FORMULA™ in gel can
Water sufficient for processing, duck, duck by-products, pea flour, pea protein,
natural flavors, fish oil, carrageenan, calcium sulfate, potassium citrate, cassia
gum, Vitamins [L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), niacin
supplement, DL-alpha tocopherol acetate (source of vitamin E), biotin, D-calcium
pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), pyridoxine hydrochloride
(vitamin B6), riboflavin supplement (vitamin B2), vitamin B12 supplement,
folic acid, vitamin D3 supplement], taurine, vegetable oil, choline chloride, Trace
Minerals [zinc proteinate, zinc oxide, iron sulfate, copper sulfate, manganous oxide,
sodium selenite, calcium iodate], marigold extract (Tagetes erecta L.).

Ingredients of Science Hills canned food for CRF (Chronic Renal Failure)
Water, Pork Liver, Chicken, Pork By-Products, Brewers Rice, Oat Fiber, Corn Starch, Glucose, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Potassium Citrate, Psyllium Seed Husk, Guar Gum, Calcium Carbonate, Fish Oil, Calcium Sulfate, DL-Methionine, Choline Chloride, Taurine, Iodized Salt, Vitamin E Supplement, L-Cysteine, Glycine, Thiamine Mononitrate, Ascorbic Acid (source of vitamin C), Zinc Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Niacin, Beta Carotene, Manganous Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin, Biotin, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Calcium Iodate, Folic Acid, Sodium Selenite.

So I hope sometimes a society will invent CRF + IBS food with perhaps a little more proteins than IBS food, but not too much, all the hydratation qualities of IBS and all the mineral balance of CRF.

And I'm OK with psyllium husk as a prebiotic, but not as a bowel treatment. Besides psyllium husk can help to lower BUN in some way in my opinion.

[francoise_peace]

I hope the vet is opened:
http://www.catsofaustralia.com/cat-kidney-disease.htm
"You may have heard that restricting protein is recommended for cats in kidney failure. Although this has been the "standard" treatment for decades, as far as cats are concerned, it has always been--and remains--very controversial. According to experts at Colorado State University's veterinary teaching hospital, restricted protein does not prevent kidney failure in a healthy cat, and has no effect on the ultimate progression of renal disease. Research also shows that even very high protein diets do not make renal failure worse in cats (although high protein does worsen the disease in dogs and humans). (One pet food maker recently completed a study it claims shows that its restricted-protein diet increases lifespan in CRF cats. However, because the study has not yet been published, it is impossible to evaluate the data, which is contradicted by other research.) The real culprit is actually phosphorus, which meat contains in large amounts. Decreasing phosphorus intake (by restricting protein) can help some cats feel better, so it may be worth a try in a symptomatic cat.

However, some studies have suggested that excessive restriction of protein may actually cause further damage to the kidneys and other organs, because there is not enough protein for normal body maintenance and repair. Experts say that these diets are not appropriate until the BUN (Blood Urea Nitrogen) is at least double what it should be normally (about 60-80 mg/dl). "

[opus88]

hi Franc...I wouldn't really trust a study done by a Pet food company,they would tend to be biased.
From holistic sources I've read.
Low protein diets can do harm to cats including ones with declining kidney function, this can exacerbate muscle wasting.
Recent studies have shown keeping phosphorous levels in check slows down progression of kidney failure.
The challenge is that a cats diet consists of meat which is naturally high in phosphorous, Feed meats that are lower in phosphorous such as good quality turkey or chicken rather than beef.
High quality turkey or chicken NOT by-products......you can also substitute cooked Egg Whites for a portion of the meat as a source of protein.
You can do some research on using eggshell powder as an oral phosphate binder to balance phosphorous levels in the meat, apparantly the Japanese have done some studies into this, see if you can find something published.
good luck with the continued search for answers.
♥Opus

[francoise_peace]

"you can also substitute cooked Egg Whites for a portion of the meat as a source of protein", I can't do nothing at home, don't have the permission.

"using eggshell powder as an oral phosphate binder to balance phosphorous levels in the meat", good idea, but can't do it.

  ###############################################################
### Royal Canin Vet Exclusive Vet diet GREEN PEAS & DUCK FORMULA ###
   ###############################################################
can't do neither, vet say, stay with K/D, avoid proteins.

Right now she isn't strong enough with the low protein diet. That's why I don't like it.

But she's getting back to her old habits, except for dry food, because she is still not strong enough to eat it by herself and she doesn't like dry K/D.

Mercola complete probiotics for pets (dogs and cats) have arrived, but I'm giving her less than prescription on the bottle (>>1g), because the one before, Probiavi's, said only 0.8mg, and I'm giving her 0.4mg, small pinch, less than salt pinch.

Indeed probiotics have in immediate effect and I think they could cause constipation. The brown thing is more compact and smells more, just like for the previous probiotics. But on the other hand the new probiotics are more complete and are going to stimulate her health in several places.

####################################################################
####################################################################
So it's:
Morning:
syringue: K/D Science Hills Wet
syringue: 4ml of low mineralised water with 0.4mg of Mercola Probiotics
Noon:
syringue: K/D Science Hills Wet
syringue: 2 pomps of Renalzin as phosphate binder
Night:
syringue: K/D Science Hills Wet + 1/2 Fortekor 2.5"
Cat milk (Whiskas) by herself, she likes it.
#######################################################################
#######################################################################
I don't trust very much cat milk, I'm afraid it could gave her renal calculus like oxalate with the calcium and the vitamin D, but I'm not an expert and I don't know.

Can cat milk give renal calculus ?

[francoise_peace]

:(
I posted a 8euros question on Just Answers, but you can also answer it:

Hello my cat has CRF and is often having diarrhea. Today it's the 3rd or 4th time she has one and she has only have eated Science Hills K/D. I wanted to but IVD Royal Canin Grean Peas and Duck but vet disagreed because they don't know it and she has CRF diet.
I want to know what food I can buy online (I live in France) for my cat to be able to eat something that won't cause a diarrhea reaction. She never had diarrhea with K/D. In the past after having finished 12 Science Hills mature Turkey, she became "allergic to it", having serious diarrhea anytime she tries it. Now she is having by myself Mercola Complete Probiotics for pets, because I know probiotics are good for diarrhea. But because she is psychologically traumatised with this diarrhea thing, it has been one month she stopped eating by herself. I'm giving her K/D in seringue through mouth. But she looks physically well since I feed her about 3 times a day. I want to know, what cat food would you give her - and she is over 19yo:
Kattovit
- Gastro (pheasant, duck)
- Sensitive (fish)
- Low Protein (Sea Fish)
Integra Protect
- Intestinal (with by-products but for diarrhea)
- Sensitive (Turkey and potato)
- Natural Balance green peas and duck

[francoise_peace]

Today she is better. Thinking about an answer...

[francoise_peace]

************************************************************************************
************************************************************************************
About Mercola Complete Probiotics for Pets, posology/dosage for cats is Wrong.

NEVER GIVE THEIR SPOON WICH IS 200MG !!!

Posology/dosage for cats is 0.2 to 0.8mg ! (In that I agree with Probiavi)
************************************************************************************
A propos de la posologie des probiotiques pour chats: Mercola Complete Probiotics for Pets, leur posologie est Erronée.

NE DONNEZ JAMAIS LEUR CUILLERE QUI FAIT 200MG !!!

La posologie pour les chats est de 0.2 à 0.8mg ! (Sur ce fait je suis d'accord avec Probiavi)
************************************************************************************
************************************************************************************

[francoise_peace]

I'm worried about microcrystalline cellulose inside complete pet probiotics by Mercola.
I can't now, but later I'll buy Azodyl.

[francoise_peace]

I continue to wonder if I should go on with K/D canned ?

The answer is more "yes" than "no".

[francoise_peace]

It's a pity I still don't have a job, but in the other hand I have more time to be with my cat.

I'm not liking this mircrocrystalline cellulose inside Mercola. I'm also thinking about : iFlora Healthy Pets. But I can't gess if they don't have this hidden ingredient to:
http://www.sedonalabs.com/shop/pc/viewPrd.asp?idCategory=2&idProduct=19&show=supfact

I read that the cat doesn't eat while CRF because uremia makes acid stomach and nausea. Perhaps Sedona iFlora would have been better as probiotics, since they're for stomach ?

And I think to go on with K/D wet. I'll have to see if I buy it with vet, online, or if family will offer me.

This acid stomach problem is probably the reason why cats don't eat.

[francoise_peace]

I think I've understood a big thing, it's not because CRF BUN levels seems normal and lower on the **** of paper, that they were normal, they were just lower NOT BACK TO NORMAL.

It only prooves that probiotics were limitating Uremia and Urea by desintoxication or whatever, as if something was really acting on BUN without reversing process.

First time when she was better, blood results gave ACTING, not STATE.

**** I had to change probiotics. **** the post office is ****. **** I was stolen. And **** probiotics sellers were ****. And **** I couldn't continue the same treatment !

And **** that even if her Urea isn't high yet, it is her Urea that is giving nausea to her and is making her not eating.

And not **** that phosphate binder that I thought it was ****, really put the phosphorus into **** ! But **** it can also cause nauseas.

So ****, actual probiotics aren't working on her karma, or whatever !

And **** about this relativity Blood Levels !!!!!!!!!!!!

*********************************************************************************
I close this long thinking with that thought:
Einstein was right about blood BUN levels, lowering them back to normal is relativity theory, it's not because treatment is working, and results are normal, that they ARE normal. What you see is not what it is. Blood Levels BUN aren't WYSIWYG.
*********************************************************************************

[francoise_peace]

I'll post a new post on december, when I'll have her new blood analysis. Target is still: get levels back to normal. But even if CRF levels get back to normal, damages are there, and can't get back to normal.

This is relativity. Blood levels says if treatment is treating symptoms. If treatment is treating disease, this we cannot know. All CRF symptoms can be treated. But disease can't be treated yet. CRF BUN blood levels are tricky, if treatment isn't working, you have the actual state of the cat's kidney, if treatment is working on symptoms, it only says symptoms aren't there, but the disease is there, and requires a medicine that treats it without only treating the symptoms.

Probiotics can lower UREA if they contain Kibow Biotics:
S.thermophilus(KB19), L.acidophilus (KB27) and B.longum (KB31)
http://www.kibowbiotech.com/biotics.php

But we don't need to have the trademark Kibow Biotics to have the good bacterias. Plenty of probiotics trademarks contains them like Probiavi, Mercola, Sedona... Cat can be given human or pet probiotics. Just make sure the probiotics trademark is known so it isn't junk. And it is very good when you have CFU/g per spoon or per powder bottle. It is important to have above 2 billion.

Probiotics are safe because they don't have side effects. But giving too much can cause constipation, in my own pet owner opinion. And it can contains extra substances that might not be good for your car, like mold when it is refrigerated or additives. I think FOS is safer then microcrystalline cellulose (plant extract). Psyllium Husk additive is considered by vets as safe also, but it isn't considered that safe for human. FOS, cellulose and Psyllium are prebiotics wich is food for Probiotics that are alive bacterias that need food for not starving.

Phosphate binder like RENALZIN can lower phosphorus wich lowers Kidney function wich lowers UREA.

By lowering UREA, CREATININE gets lower and can get back to normal. If CREATININE in CRF cat is normal, than must be seen as a relativity phenomenon. CREATININE can be normal but Kidney is still damaged and is still necrosing. Only process of necrosing is very very small OR is occuring at normal speed but is related to something else than CREATININE. So blood levels aren't true test.

If you manage to lower UREA and CREATININE at normal levels, you won't know what is going on.

Vet can also lower other symptoms like nausea wich is caused by uremia even if UREA is normal, and stimulate cat's appetite. And neutralise all of the CRF symptoms like CONSTIPATION, DIARRHEA, HUNGER, THIRST, VOMITING, NAUSEA, etc... But even if symptoms are neutralised, the disease is there, and TREATMENT MUST CONTINUE THE SAME AS IF CAT HAD NOT CURED.

A lot of people can make there cat stay alive with junk food that contains by-products like Fancy Feast, for over 3-4 years. Some people can also, if cat eats, make CRF cat stay alive for 1-5 years with specific renal food like Science Hills K/D. And some people have the same results with natural balanced food without by-products and with plenty of innovative ecological food ideas.

Food choice influence 2 things: 1) Health 2) Kidney condition. If food acts very well on Health or on Kidney, than your cat will live longer. But food cannot help both Health or Kidney. I'll advise:
Science Hills K/D wet for old cats. Because they don't move that much and they don't need so much proteins. But the cat must eat at normal quantities. CRF food is often related with ANOREXIA.
I never tried, but since high quality food seems to stimulate health and long living in younger cats that need proteins, I think healthy food would be advised for young cats with CRF. But high quality food might DAMAGE more kidney than CRF food because of digestibility, phosphorus and proteins.

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<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3
<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3Hearts<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3
<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3
<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3

About stimulating apetite, I have bought all of this:
- a small strainer (passoire in French /  ment for cooking)
- a mini-casserole in the pan (ment for human cooking)
- a hard iron spoon (ment for human eating with it)
- a baby plate (ment for human eating on it)
- a baby bowl (ment for human eating on it)
- empty biggest size syringues (vet or pharmacy sells them, ask a pack of 10 syringues)
- aluminium paper (ment for human food)
- low mineralized water (written: advised for kidney function and seniors)
- CRF food (or a trusted high quality food if you think your cat kidney can handdle it)
- paper towels / or tissue towels for frequent use

The wet canned food is kept in the refrigerator OUTSIDE can, in the BABY BOWL covered with ALUMINIUM PAPER. It is dangerous to keep canned food inside CANS because can gives bacterias that can kill in a day like BOTULISM.

As CRF food my cat takes tree times a day a big SPOON of Science Hills K/D wet mixed with water.

So I take the K/D wet out of fridge, I put it in a mini-casserole, I add LOW-MINERALIZED WATER in the food, and TAP WATER for bain-marie in the pan, at a level where I can take out the miini-casserole.

Heating food in bain-marie is safe and stimulate cat's appetite because it's hotter and it smells better.

Than I pass the food with the HARD IRON SPOON in the SMALL STRAINER, so that the food will be liquid. It all falls in the baby plate.

It is important that wet food becomes liquid, with STRAINER or ROBOT, so that it doesn't SPLASH  on the cat and on the walls when you give her/him the food syringue.

Than I put the medicine in food:
- Morning: probiotics 1/8 to 1/4 of Mercola's Spoon, I suppose it is 0,6 to 2mg, anyway it's less than a pinch to a pinch.
- Noon: 2 pomps of Renalzin (you can also give 2*2 Renalzin in a day if cat is in bad condition with phosphorus)
- Night: 1/2 Fortekor.
Cat medication can change, according to what vet prescribes and to what you think it's better to him. But please always check each molecule in a bottle.

Make sure with SPOON everything is liquid and put in the EMPTY SYRINGUE (without the nail of course, because the syringue is like a baby bottle).

You can give 1 to 3 syringues of food (8-24mg) mixed with water. I'll recommend 2 syringues (16mg) per meal three times a day, but it depends on the cat size. And it will be so good if vets could give us the REAL FOOD AND WATER QUANTITY IN SYRINGUE that a CRF cat that doesn't eat should be GIVEN ?

Put two paper towels under the cat, the syringue on the left or right side of the cat's mouth, and give slowly the food, for th cat to eat while breathing. If the food is liquid enough, there won't be big splashes, and the cat will be less dirty.

Then clean the cat's mouth with humid towel.

I really think the small strainer will have a future in cleaning issues with feedind cat with syringue-bottle.

[francoise_peace]

3 november 2010, she did 2 big, hard, brown, consistent, with no smell, normal looking (====) and one small, then diarrhea. I think it is IBS because she forced for the 2 first ones.

[francoise_peace]

Hypothesis: High Fat causes diarrhea

Fat comparision for wet:

Protein -minus(-)- FAT % =
K/D can (actual) = 1,9
K/D Pouches = 1,5
Royal Canin Tuna Pouch = 3,8
Royal Canin Beef Pouch = 4,1
Royal Canin Chicken Pouch = -6
Royal Canin Alutray = 4,4
Integra Protect Renal = -4,72
Eukanuba Renal = -24 ?!

So the best is:
Royal Canin Alutray = 4,4
Royal Canin Beef Pouch = 4,1
Royal Canin Tuna Pouch = 3,8
http://www.royalcanin.co.uk/PDF/renal_with_tuna_and_beef_feline.pdf

And avoid negatives:
Royal Canin Chicken Pouch = -6
Integra Protect Renal = -4,72
Eukanuba Renal = -24 ?! (Protein 25% Fat 49% Carbohydrate 26%)

(OK this is really bad publicity........)

[francoise_peace]

Compared with mature:

http://www.royalcanin.co.uk/PDF/neutered_mature.pdf
10+ Protein - FAT = 25
http://www.hillspet.com/products/sd-feline-minced-gourmet-turkey-entree-mature-adult-7plus-canned.html
7+ Protein - FAT = 14,4

Compared with other condition:

http://www.hillspet.com/products/pd-feline-dd-feline-skin-support-duck-formula-canned.html
d/d Protein - FAT = 9
http://www.hillspet.com/products/pd-feline-ld-feline-hepatic-health-canned.html
l/d Protein - FAT = 8,4
http://www.hillspet.com/products/pd-feline-zd-feline-ultra-allergen-free-canned.html
z/d Protein - FAT = 15,5

Relativity in all :)

[francoise_peace]

Finally she'll stay with Science Hills K/D wet, family is agains't trying another food. I would have tried Royal Canin Renal with Beef.

It's such a worry when they have diarrhea. But it passed. She ate, she's OK.

[francoise_peace]

http://www.royalcanin.co.uk/vet/clinical_diets/feline_clinical_diets/gastro-intestinal_mod_cal_wet.aspx

So I bought the Science Hills K/D thanks to family participation. But I've also ordered on my side Gastro-Intestinal Moderate Calorie Wet, it should arrive tomorrow. I'll try to convince family to give it to her during a week, so that I hope her gastro-intestinal problems will decrease. I don't want her to die of colitis, it'll be absurde.

I hope they pick the one for the cat, and I hope not to get stolen, and I hope it'll really arrive tomorrow morning.

I had enough of not being able to do something for her !

America is right: you have money, you have health, you have a bank account, you have money ! Really #### !!!

[francoise_peace]

I think she is having high creatinine now days because of gastro, because today PH paper was 5.5.
I'm going to keep on K/D wet, although I've ordered Renal Special, but she isn't eating her dry food from long.
I'm going to stop Mercola Complete Probiotics and Whiskas Cat Milk, although I have some at home. Mercola because it was good on #### but it didn't improve her gastro-intestinal problems. Cat Milk, because of risk of Oxalate crystals.
As soon as I can I'll try iFlora Healthy Pets wich is lighter then Mercola 5billions * more than 10 bacterias * 2mg / 2,2. And it is written "Balanced Digestion" on it.
Cellulose isn't only in Mercola, it's also on K/D and plenty of cat foods. I don't trust the ingredient, but I can't say it's the cellulose in Mercola that isn't helping because the cellulose is everywhere. But cellulose might have a negative effect on crystal oxalate.
Really worried.

I'll buy some K/D at the vet for waiting. I don't know what to do about her gastric problems. I can't give her Gastro-Intestinal Moderate because family is right, it isn't appropriate.

[opus88]

hi Franc. a PH of 5.5 is in normal range, but I would watch as you are doing not to let this get any lower...as you say you need to be careful of too acidic a urine and oxolate crystals.
I am glad you've stopped the whiskas cat milk, god only knows what they add to that stuff and any milk product isn't good for kitties digestive system.
You are doing a good job....frustrating tho it is...
♥Opus

[francoise_peace]

For stomach acidity, I'm feeding her little food (case: 1 syringue) 5 or 6 times a day instead of 2 three times a day. Because the cat has little stomach and that makes food calm down stomach without beeing too full or too empty.

For urinary acidity, I just found this night that adding a little cooked pumpkin (courgette / green vegetable) in her food will high alkalinity and lower acidity. Because cats who only eat meat have calcium oxalate problems (acid side) and cats who only eats vegetarian have struvite problems (alkalin side). So a little pumpkin or peas will lower acidity.

[francoise_peace]

Thanks Opus, my PH paper goes only until 5.5, so I can't know if it is worse. Before she was 6 or 6.2.
Friday morning I'll go to the vet.

[opus88]

after doing more reading I realize the info I gave you is wrong!!! a normal ph level should be 6.1-6.6 (sited from wellness diet site)....therefor if your kitties is reading 5.5 the urine is already acidic so you don't want to lower this any further....speak with your Vet.

[francoise_peace]

Yes, I'm worried:

http://adam.about.com/reports/000081_7.htm :
Kidney Stones

- Water. Although water is best, it may vary depending on its source. Variations in water itself may have different impacts. One study reported that drinking hard tap water increased urinary calcium concentration by 50% compared to soft bottled water. On the other hand, mineral water containing both calcium and magnesium may reduce several risk factors for both calcium and uric acid stone formation.

- The most important dietary recommendations for reducing the risk for calcium stones are increasing fluid intake, restricting sodium, and reducing protein intake. A lower risk for calcium stones is also associated with higher potassium intake.

- Fiber may be beneficial for people with kidney stones. In addition, some fiber-rich foods may contain compounds that help protect against kidney stones. A wide variety of high-fiber plant foods contain a compound called phytate (also called inositol hexaphosphate, InsP6, or IP6), which appears to help prevent crystallization of calcium salts, both oxalate and phosphate. Phytate is found in legumes and wheat and rice bran. (Soybeans are also rich in phytate but they are also very high in oxalates, so the overall effects of soy on kidney stones are not clear.)

http://www.catfoodguide.com/long-guide/ :
- Avoid: Soy (along with most legumes and grains) contains large amounts of phytic acid. In fact, soy contains more phytic acid than any other legume or food plant studied. Phytic acid combines with minerals in the cat’s digestive tract, thereby inhibiting their absorption. Again, normal heat processing doesn’t destroy phytic acid.Soy contains phytoestrogens which have been known to cause damage to cheetah livers and reproductive systems. Yes, cheetahs are especially sensitive because they’re notoriously inbred and fragile. However, the soy that caused problems in the studied cheetahs made up a fairly small proportion of their food, and cats in general are pretty sensitive to all sorts of wacky chemicals, up to and including estrogens.

- But try: oats and rice ?

- Didn't found nothing about zucchini (pumpkin, courgette) ?

http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/clerk/sine/index.php :

"                                                               pH

The pH of urine can vary depending on an animal’s diet as well as its acid-base status. For example, animals that primarily eat high protein meat-based diets will have acidic urine. On the other hand, animals that eat more vegetable-based diets will have an alkaline urine.1,5

Dipsticks measure pH using methyl red, bromthymol blue or phenolphathalein indicator dyes. These reagents react rapidly and result in a color change. pH can be approximated within 0.5 units using a dipstick. The urine sample should be fresh as urine becomes more alkaline on standing due to the conversion of urea to ammonia by bacteria (if present), and loss of CO2.1

Causes of acidic urine include: meat diet, systemic acidosis, hypochloridemia, and administration of acidifying agents such as d,l-methionine or NH4Cl. 4,5 Urine with high concentrations of glucose may have a lower pH.6 This is due to bacterial metabolism of glucose and and production of ammonia which lowers pH.1

Causes of alkaline urine include: vegetable based diet, bacterial infection of urease-producing bacteria, systemic alkalosis, urine exposed to room air for an extended time (loss of CO2), and administration of alkalinizing agents including citrate or NaHCO3.1,4,5

Urine pH also may provide good predictive assessment of crystal and stone morphology as certain crystals and stones form in either acidic or alkaline environments. Uric acid, cystine, and calcium oxalate crystals are found in acidic urine. On the other hand, struvite, calcium carbonate, calcium phosphate, ammonium biurate, and amorphous phosphate crystals are found in alkaline urine.5

For a more accurate assessment of urine pH, a pH meter may be used. However, for most routine veterinary analyses a dipstick pH reading is sufficient.5
"

http://www.naturalhealthcarestore.com/phdiet.htm :

High Alkaline: Onions
Alkaline: Zucchini
Low alkaline: Soy beans

Low acid: Spinach, Pumpkin
Acid: Potatoes, Corn
High acid: Blackberries*, Milk
(although the other website says blackberries is good against acid ?)

http://www.balance-ph-diet.com/acid_alkaline_food_chart.html :
Each one is assigned a number which mirrors its approximate relative potential of alkalinity (+) or acidity (-) existent in one ounce (28.35g) of food. The higher the number, the better it is for you to eat.
(-> it isn't the PH)

Healthy Alkaline Foods: Eat lots of them!
(...)
Straw Grass +21.4
Watercress +7.7
Wheat Grass +33.8
White Cabbage +3.3
Zucchini +5.7

**
So zucchini (la courgette) is safe because it doesn't contains phytic acid although phytic acid may help, but may cause problems also. And it is a little alkalin.

************************************************************************************************
************************************************************************************************
So zucchini (courgette) cooked in low mineralized water mixed with Science Hills K/D will be fine. Because it will higher PH alkalinity a little and therefore lower urine acidity.
And drinking a lot / for a cat is several times a little / water is also good.
************************************************************************************************
************************************************************************************************

[francoise_peace]

I tried to put something on wikipedia related to what I've found on the net, don't know if it'll stay:

==Dietetics==

For humans: Drink low mineralized water, avoid tap water even for cooking, eat less meat, and add alkaline vegetables on your plate like fresh cucumber, zucchini, fresh endive, alfafa grass, onion and garlic.
*[http://www.naturalhealthcarestore.com/phdiet.htm Adjust Your Bodies pH Level With an Acid and Alkaline Balanced Diet]
*[http://www.balance-ph-diet.com/acid_alkaline_food_chart.html Acid Alkaline Food Chart]  

For animals: Offer low mineralized water several times a day. Cook in low mineralized water zucchini slices, pass a few through a small strainer along with its wet food diet, to have a more alkaline pet food.

A cat's urine PH should be between 6.1 and 6.6 and a dog's PH should be between 5.2 to 6.8, if it is less there is a risk of high uric acid, cystine, and calcium oxalate crystals. Acidic urine can be the consequence of meat diet, low chloride or acidoses. On the other hand, alkaline urine can cause struvite, calcium carbonate, calcium phosphate, and can be the consequence of alkaline vegetable diet, high phosphate or bacterial infection. PH paper strips can be bought at aquarium stores for personal use. Avoid contact with litter when mesuring, and results must be checked instantaneously.

========

References (as above):
http://adam.about.com/reports/000081_7.htm
http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/clerk/sine/index.php (good PH explanation)
http://loudoun.nvcc.edu/vetonline/vet131/urinalysis.htm (more exact PH of cats and dogs)
But there is a chance that for dogs there is variations according to breed. But I don't know.

[francoise_peace]

She is 2,400 Kgs, so she lost weight although she kept very big belly (ventre) but we see she is bony.

She did blood analysis + echography.

All organs were OK (bowel, kidney - 1 kidney had a kyst, bladder etc.) but she has hard stools (selles dures) waiting in bowel. I spoke about her always go: 1st) big and hard 2nd) diarrhea-like.
Mother asked if could be: hemorroids (hemorrhoids) ?
Vet answered: Cats can't have hemorroids (hemorrhoids). But she can't also have laxatives because of the diarrhea problems.

I said I give cooked zucchini with her food for her PH and for her gastro-intestinal problems (fibers).

About her PH, I mesured yesterday, it was 5.8. So a little bit of zucchini is good for correcting acid urine problems, thanks to its alkalinity properties, I confirm. But echography said: no visible crystals.

Vet said to mix Sciences Hills i/d (gastro-intestinal wet food) with k/d (renal wet food). But I am a little afraid for creatinine. Because the kidney in sick cats don't synthetise proteins as well as for normal cats. But on the other hand she is still loosing weight and she has this intestinal problem with heavy #### followed by water-like-#### (that dirties everything).

He didn't gave any opinion about zucchini (courgette) because vets in France don't have nutritional formation, but mother said previous vet had advised it for her cat (my cat was her grandmother when her cat was alive) when she had constipation issues and said it was also good without constipation.

He also said I could go on with Mercola Probiotics. I showed him the bottle. Although I had stopped it.

About her blood analysis. He thinks it's because she is old and her kidney is old that it is getting worse. But he don't think there is a pathology associated with it and he thinks she is not going to die now (mother asked).

UREA: 0,526 g/L (past Probiotics for uremia + Renalzin phosphorus blinder + actually zucchini for acidity) -> normal - we are in the middle of the normal.
CREA: 28,8 mg/L high, max is 24.
Other levels: normal.
Na - K - Cl: normal.
He didn't measure phosphorus.

[francoise_peace]

Looking at i/d vs k/d (vet said to mix both), they are quiet similar in % for one can:

i/d:  proteins9,9 fat6,3 carboh7,1 fibre0,4 Pho0,21 Ca0,31 K0,27  Na0,09 tau0,14
k/d: proteins8,4 fat7,9 carboh11  fibre0,7 Pho0,1   Ca0,18 K0,3    Na0,09 tau0,11

i/d: kcal/100g 110 target-ph 6.2-6.4  disgestibility:proteins:91%
k/d: kcal/100g 136 target-ph 6.6-6.9 non-protein-calories 78%

ingredients i/d: Turkey, turkey liver, maize flour, rice flour, Fibrim® 1260 (soluble fibre source), dicalcium phosphate, calcium sulphate, potassium chloride, edible gums, calcium carbonate, taurine, iodised salt, vitamins and trace elements.

ingredients k/d: Liver, chicken (minimum 14%), pork, ground rice, oat fibre, maize starch, glucose, animal fat, potassium citrate, psyllium, edible gums, calcium carbonate, calcium sulphate, menhaden oil, taurine, DL-methionine, iodised
salt, vitamins and trace elements.

Fibrim is soy fiber. Hope it's not dangerous since soy contains hormones and that could give thyrroid problems, but maybe fiber isn't grain ?

But I think the protein level of i/d is OK for CRF, moreover if it's mixed with k/d.

[francoise_peace]

Minou had a more than 7days constipation, she went to the vet and he took out the #### that was huge. I'm glad the vet has a cat, you must have some courage to help a constipated cat, and taking the #### out is a very personnal intervention !
But Minou is calm, that might have helped, he said he used a lubrificator, and it hurted her anus a little, but very small blood from mucosa.
I have the same problem then her because I am vegetarian. I am sure K/D without proteins can't help. I don't know if the i/d will help for this in the future. I hope she recovers because her skin is full of dandruff because of constipation.
She had 2 syringues (of 10mm) of water plus one with water + vitamin gel paste from Virback, before going to the vet, so that she won't faint. And when we arrived she had her food with her probiotics and her Renalzin. Because I always eat after constipation.

[francoise_peace]

I am the happiest cat-mother that exists over the world.

And I am very sad about the thousand of people who thinks I feel frustrated when grooming my sick cat. I love my cat. So I love to take care of her. And I have hope. As I will always have hope in sickness with everyone. You can only kill someone if you lost your hope about him/her. Because love is an essencial ingredient for cure.

We live in a very dangerous society. People who don't have hope and who think you are frustrated are dangerous for society. I don't like you.

I am as happy as when I did the Master 1 and succeeded, it were the happiest days of my life, and professors didn't have to tell me they are in depression because I should be feeling frustrated because I am old (???) and as most of their students they don't like, I dream about finding my first job, but unfortunately Linguistics field is not associated with the world of employment (???). Those people who don't believe in you, don't believe in their own future. They are all wrong. I passed 10years without being told Linguistics isn't associated with a job. But I'm not as lunatic as professors, I have ambitions in Geology field, and I'll take the 70years left for me to live, to become Geologist. I also have ambition of working even if I'll have to say: "I did no studies and passed 10years in vidéo games", because you can't find a job with a human science diploma, may it be linguistics or psychology or sociology or ethnology. But before all, I'll take care of my cat.

I'm very happy with my vet, because he has hope. And I wouldn't stay with a vet that don't believe the cat can live.

So the thousand of people who told me they are frustrated when their car is sick so I must feel frustrated with mine. You are wrong and dangerous for society! Sickness is the same thing then fairies, if you don't believe in them, they die.

[francoise_peace]

I'm happy that my cat is still alive.

Now days she is having a lot of constipation, the cause is rather not enough strength.

She is doing well with K/D mixed with I/D.

Thinking maths:
3 x 2 syringes a day = 3*(2 x 10ml) = 60 ml a day - the water added.

1 can of K/D = 156g
For a 4kg cat, 1 can and 1/2 = 156 + 78 = 234g

So the quantity she must eat is:
ex:
K/D proteins: 8,4%
I/D proteins: 9,9%

60/234 * 100 = 25,64%

So she is allowed to eat:
(8,4+25,64)/100 + 8,4 = 10,55% of proteins

(if someone can advice better calculus than me for everyone... ?)

So I/D is OK.

[francoise_peace]

Explanation:

Hypothesis:
For a 3,5kg cat, 1 can and 1/4 = 156g + 39g = 195g
For a 4kg cat, 1 can and 1/2 = 156 + 78 = 234g
You give E(g) of food a day to your cat.

What is missing ?
For a 3,5kg cat, 100 - (E/195 * 100) = A%
For a 4kg cat, 100 - (E/234 * 100) = A%

If:
K/D label: proteins8,4 fat7,9 carboh11  fibre0,7 Pho0,1   Ca0,18 K0,3    Na0,09 tau0,11

Than:
Suppose that E = 60g
For a 4kg cat, 100 - (E/234 * 100) = A%
So 100 - (60/234 * 100) = 100 - 25,64 = 74,36%
So max proteins = (8,4xA)/100 + 8,4 = 14,65%

And there, you can give other food to your cat along with its renal food if he/she eats less than supposed, but there must be limits to proteins intake in CRF cats.

[francoise_peace]

Correction:

100 - (60/234 * 100) = 100 - 25,64 = 74,36%


So she is allowed to eat:
8,4 + (8,4x74,36)/100 = 14,65% of proteins

--
Explanation:

Hypothesis:
For a 3,5kg cat, 1 can and 1/4 = 156g + 39g = 195g
For a 4kg cat, 1 can and 1/2 = 156 + 78 = 234g
You give E(g) of food a day to your cat.

What is missing ?
For a 3,5kg cat, 100 - (E/195 * 100) = A%
For a 4kg cat, 100 - (E/234 * 100) = A%

If:
K/D label: proteins8,4 fat7,9 carboh11  fibre0,7 Pho0,1   Ca0,18 K0,3    Na0,09 tau0,11

Than:
Suppose that E = 60g
For a 4kg cat, 100 - (E/234 * 100) = A%
So 100 - (60/234 * 100) = 100 - 25,64 = 74,36%
So max proteins = (8,4xA)/100 + 8,4 = 14,65%

[francoise_peace]

She went today to the vet. She is having anemia with CRF :(
The vet saved her again by de-constipating her with his hands.
I don't know what to do about anemia ?
He gave her an injection for eating, but I don't see the use since it's me who is feeding her - and it didn't make her more hungry.
For constipation he said to give her Hills 7+ instead of Hills i/d with Hills k/d because before Hills 7+ was giving her diarrhea.
I'll post a new topic but I'm not sure I can save her again. But situation is still not dramatic.

CRF + Anemia:

Urea: 0,789 g/L max is 0,756
Crea: 33,6 mg/L max is 24
GR HCT and HGB very very low - because of constipation she didn't want to eat, and she wasn't eating much although she eats 20ml * 3 times + 10ml of water.
Problem: Can't put at once 40ml of wet food in a cat stomach !!!

And she'll have Nelio 2,5 instead of Fortekor because clinic changed medication partnership because Fortekor is sold to us (and probably to them) very expensive (yes, it's about 1/2 of the price of Mercola Probiotics).

Do you think if I found a Sheba that isn't only protein (sheba tuna, sheba chicken), a wet one with fish and vegetables (sheba ocean i don't know what), she can have some ? I'll see this now. At list CRF cats who eats holistic don't have this anemia problem. But I think anemia is more serious than CRF because if she can't get her strength back, she can't fight CRF.
And vet said to avoid vitamins to treat anemia because it isn't good to kidney.

I think it's really a food dosage problem mixed with CRF and constipation and past diarrhea problem.

If someone can invent 20ml nutritional equilibrated food for cats that eat only with syringe ?

Please !!!

[francoise_peace]

Hey big idea this morning: colostrum for anemia ?

[francoise_peace]

Hello, I close the topic. It's already too long:

New topic:
CRF with anemia - end of life
http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Cats/CRF-with-anemia---end-of-life/show/1416438

So you are welcome to follow new topic and to give me your advices :)

[dmr111]

do you know if ash , taurine and magnesium are bad for cats with rf?