How to reduce elevated creatinine in very old healthy cat ?

Hello, my cat is not sick yet, it is a female of 19yo or more (found in September 1991), and she has 23,3mg/L of CREA (<24), so still not kidney, but my two other cats dyed of kidney with CREA that went up very fast.
Veterinary prescribed Fortekor 2.5 one by day for prevention.
Her Urea is normal, although she had drink and eat before blood test, it is 0,524g/L. But she drinks a lot: each time she awakes up she wants food and water.
In veterinary there is Epakitin, there is still a lot left from the 2other cats, Veterinary says I can give her. But here they don't sell Azodyl. I don't know if it is good and if we can give without prescription. And if there is something else known there that has got no secondary effects.
And for food I have Royal Canin RENAL wet and dry, although she licks the wet but don't eat it and eats the dry. But I just read it's better to try wet furthermore she is overweight 4.05kg, has osteoporosis and takes Cosequin. Cosequin allows her to be more active and flexible when she takes it and Veterinary says Cosequin is no danger for kidney.
Thank you for all your advices.

[DonnaYav]

Hello,
I lost a cat also to CRF over a year ago after a four year battle.
I have a cat now that has has elevated kidney values , creatine 2.8 and BUN of 56.
Where to start, since you are familair with this disease and have some knowledge, I guess you know that dry food is the worst thing we are suppose to give to any cat who has kidney issues.My cat was a dry food junkie and it took awhile to convert her over to strictly canned food. She does not, and will not eat any kind of prescription kidney diet food..
For this reason the vet has prescribed Aluminum Hydroxide, it is your basic antiacid but since it only came in liquid form and it would be too stressful to give twice a day to my cat I called a specialty pharmacy and they compounded it into powder in a capsule and I open the capsule up and give it to her twice a day, every 12 hours. This is so she can eat canned foods that may not be "acceptable" in the levels of Phosphorus, etc..I guess it blocks some of the phosphorus and such so the kidneys do not have to work as hard .
This capsules, for 3 months worth ran me about $54, not bad if you break it down for each month.
Vets still live by the old standard of a prescription kidney diet which is low in protein and in phosphorus but more recent research indicates that too low of protein actually causes muscle wasting and supposedly shortens the life span of a CRF cat.(this is what I read so you be the judge).
I believe that a good quality canned cat food such as Wellness no grain in Turkey, Merrick canned cat foods are acceptable for cats with kidney impairments.
Azydol (sp?), possibly a good substitute would be Forta Flora from the vet or another is Benebac, it is fairly cheap and can be bought at a Petco or ordered from Amazon.com..
Fish oil is a good supplement, it is good at reducing inflammation, so that would be great for your cat since it has arthritis and good for the kidneys at reducing the inflammation ..An excellent brand is Oceanlandic (sp?) UNSCENTED salmon oil, it comes in a pump can and will need to be refrigerated to insure shelf life and since it is an oil, to keep it from ever going rancid..
Drinking is good for your cat, as long as your cat is taking in enough water it helps to flush out toxins..I sit a bowl in the dining room, one in the kitchen and one in the bedroom, since cats are random drinkers .
My cat's kidney values haven't changed for the worse much in the past 6 months and it was over a year ago that her levels became slightly abnormal.
My cat has been having constipation issues, this can also go along with renal problems and I have had her to the vet this morning for some retesting of blood work that showed high WBC and Esophils (sp?, can never spell this), she has been on antibiotics now for 21 days and we will hopefully know what is going on perhaps by tomorrow.

Good luck and hopefully some of this info will be of help to you..

[opus88]

donna has given you excellent first hand experience withCRF!!

she is right about not wanting to reduce the protein very much, this is the basis of a feline diet and too low will cause additional problems.

some other words I can add is the Japanese have successfully added ESP(egg shell powder) to the diet to balance the phosphorus levels in meat...you can make your own, bake an eggshell than crush, only add a pinch.

can also substitute cooked egg whites for a 'portion' of the meat, do this slowly or the kitties will protest.

Glucosamine/chondrodin capsules also reduce inflamation (inflammation) in the bladder/urethra. as well as slippery elm bark.
I can send you the correct usage if you are interested in trying this just let me know.

another trick to try since your kitty likes her dry food so much is to crush a tiny amount of her dry over top of the canned so she will still get the scent, its a good way to do the transition....transitions need to be done very slowly...believe me I had two of the absolute most stubborn kitties in the world to work with.
She absolutely without a doubt needs to GET OFF dry food.

[francoise_peace]

Thank you for your advices. I hope your cat gets better.

My pet isn't having diarrhea but she has a little constipation, not sure Bene-Bac and FortiFlora would be recommended unless it has a wider action?

I read about Bena Fish Oil but my cat is taking Cosequin for inflammation. Don't know. Didn't find oceanlandic for cats on the net.

I just discovered about potassium for cats on the net. It is good for renal failure and hair quality. But me who is constipated I had taken some already, although it isn't written it helps constipation.
http://www.all-about-cats.com/renal_failure.htm
http://ezinearticles.com/?Potassium-For-Older-Cats&id=2276088
Found Kaminox Potassium Supplement: http://www.vetuk.co.uk/digestive-supplements-dietary-organ-supplements-c-5_143/kaminox-potassium-supplement-120ml-bottle-p-327

Problem is: don't know is she has low levels of potassium. And don't know her levels in anything because blood analysis isn't complete.

If there were some vitamin alimentary complement with potassium that I could be sure 100% good ?

Glucosamine/chondrodin is good for arthritis: http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=1+2175&aid=669 What is the name of your product ?

There she woke up and went drinking. I'm very glad to have all of those advices. But I'm still lost because here in France there is not a lot of products like that for sell. I'll have to know what to order ?

So excuse if I hesitate.

And I'm trying dry over wet. Thanks.

[DonnaYav]

I am sorry, the correct name for the fish oil is ICELANDIC, comes in Salmon UNSCENTED, which is great because fish oil can be of a strong odor..

The Flortiflora is good for diarrhea AND constipation as it puts the good flora back into the colon and helps with the digestive tract.It also has antioxidants and vitamins..Ask your vet ot look it up on the web.

You said blood analysis wasn't complete, so I am assuming one was done and is not back yet ?? If potassium is low, I am sure vet will suggest a supplement.

As far as what to order or get, try to wean your cat off of dry (dry is the worst thing for a cat especially with kidney problems), it might take a while, you can slowly mix in a little can in your cat's dry food ... Opus might have a good suggestion for this as I had no problem with this for my cat.
The prescription kidney diet at the vets is generally too LOW in protein and I feel does not help your cat..I give mine Merricks canned catfood, Newmans own Organic, Wellness grain free is another good one.Good quality canned cat food is what you are looking for, free of by products, additives, etc...
If Phosphorus is too high /and / or sodium there are binders which I think you may be using already or have on hand..

I give my cat a probiotic, Miralax 1/4 teaspoon twice a day for constipation, this can be bought over the counter here..The vet said it was fine to give and that there were no side effects except her stool could become too loose and if that happened to cut back a little on the miralax. I also give her as of recently b12 in METHYLCOBALAMIN for, sublingual, I crush it up in her food once a day, 1/4 of the 1mg.. This helps with constipation also and some cats with renal problems .
She also gets ALUMINUM HYDROXIDE, I had it compounded into a capsule and I mix it in her food twice a day, 2 hours prior to others meds or two hours after, this was prescribed by the vet to filter out excess phosphorus that is bad for kidney cats..Aluminum hydroxide is actually an anti acid that you can buy over the counter here, it usually also contains Magnesium Chloride, I believe..

I can not tell you what to give but only what I am now giving my cat who has elevated bun and creatine levels and suffers from constipation...For just kidneys, the probiotic would be beneficial, also the fish oil as it also helps to reduce inflammation, helps with constipation, good for skin, coat.. You can ask your vet about the aluminum hydroxide ..

Hope this helps a little..

[opus88]

You can do alot of reading on TRANSITIONING TO CANNED FOOD on this website, Dr. Pierson has tons of good advice and is by this I was finally successful.
www.catinfo.org
click on 'transitioning feline dry food addicts to canned food'
good luck.

[francoise_peace]

Yes, I will ask the vet about aluminium hydroxyde, but not sure he knows because we never tried it.

I just bought Katalax for constipation because here I only have something with paraffin. And it has cod liver oil too.

Do you think Renalzin, that I only can order online too, could replace Aluminium Hydroxyde or is it too strong?

I stopped after 4days Fortekor, because she had no more energy. People think it was because of constipation, but today where she also was constipated, she had a lot of energy for her age, that means she did a little thing like playing a few seconds and no lying in the litter. And Fortekor has an hypotension effect.

I'm giving her Epakitin (Ipakitin), but I'm not sure if it is usefull. She doesn't like it.

In France they do not use to make complete blood test, next month I'm going to ask it very specifically. I have 3 blood tests from this year and indeed CREA is getting high.

I really want to have your opinion about Renalzin since Azodyl seems not to be known.

[francoise_peace]

I'm thinking about Renal KS 120 Capsules, but I did not found no comment. So what do you think about it ? Did anyone use it ? Is there side effects on your cat ?

RENAL KS® is specifically formulated for renal disease and contains the highest quality of Co-Enzyme Q10, which acts as an important antioxidant and removes harmful substances from the body. Vitamin B12 (pyridoxine) plus choline and Inositol (IP6) to reduce fluid retention. Vitamin C with bioflavonoids, which acidifies the urine, boosts immune function and aids in healing.

Each capsule contains 10MG of Co-Enzyme, 225MG Calcium, Magnesium Succinate 240MG, Zinc 25MG, Choline 21MG, Ascorbic Acid 20MG, Insoitol 20MG, L-Methionine 10MG, Magnesium Stearate 10MG, Silica 10MG, Acidophilus 4MG, Citrus Bioflavanoids 3.2MG, Vitamin B12 2.5MG, Copper 2.3MG, Cellulose 35MG

Or is there any food I could cook to have one of these antioxidants? I'm keeping Royal Canin Renal Special because the pack is full.

[DonnaYav]

Hello,
Renal KS sounds like it would be ok. Since I posted about the Aluminum Hydroxide , I am holding it for my cat because of her constipation issue and read that it can indeed cause constipation..however the Renal KS lists constipation and /or diarrhea also as a potential side effect.
Here are some wonderful websites to research and I would like you to check out articles on RENAFOOD by Standard Process, I have purchased some and will be giving this to my cat and also VITAMINERAL GREEN, which I am waiting on to be delivered.

Tanya's UK feline chronic renal failure/holistic methods is a great website, Pethealth.abeautifulurn.com/herbal-cures-crf and www.littlebigcat.com/index.php?action=library&act..These have information on CRF, also have information on the supplements that I listed above.

At this present moment my cat has started back drinking excessively, this started again two days ago, 6 days after a 20 day course of Amoxicillin..She was retested after the last round of 10 more days and everything was back to normal (White blood cell , etc..) of course not her bun or creatine levels..
So, I too am having a difficult time as to what to do, I guess call vet and ask if Sub Q fluids would help, if this may stop her excessive drinking, or is she still fighting something that the antibiotic did not fully eradicate..Can't figure that one out because the bloodwork indicated that the infection (or what ever it was ) was gone..
However, The vitamineral Green is the one I myself am most interested in, it is plant based, non toxic, organic, helps with kidney function, constipation, loaded with natural B vitamins, which is good because my cat's red blood cell count was a tad low .

As far as the Renal KS , no, I have not used it before and really have no feedback on this particular product.

My plan is to get my cat on vitamineral green, 1/8 tsp twice a day, the renafood, plus get her some Icelandic Unscented Salmon oil and hold the aluminum hydroxide for the moment since her phosphorus levels are not high and still well within the normal range.
I also give her Miralax (polyethylene glycol 3350) for constipation, it can be purchased over the counter at a local drugstore or even Walmart, I give her 1/4 tsp twice a day, it is safe for CRF cats but you need to make sure your cat is drinking adequately because it does draw water into the bowels, that is the purpose of this laxative so they can have a painless bowel movement..It has been a life saver for my cat but since she started that antibiotic she became constipated..I know most people will say that the antibiotic shouldn't do this but my vet said it could go either way, constipation or diarrhea..

Good luck

[francoise_peace]

Hello,

I didn't bought renal ks because I find that it's too strong for a cat but I liked the idea of vitamin C inside. So I looked for a renal cat food with vitamin C. Renal k/d has vitamin C, but I bought some german renal cat food, Happy Cat... I thought it had vitamin C but there isn't:

vitamine A (25 000 UI/kg), vitamine D3 (1 900 UI/kg), vitamine E (150 mg/kg), vitamine B1 (6 mg/kg), vitamine B2 (6 mg/kg), acide pantothénique (12 mg/kg), niacine (50 mg/kg), vitamine B6 (4 mg/kg), vitamine B12 (100 µg/kg), biotine (1 100 µg/kg), fer (120 mg/kg), cuivre (12 mg/kg), manganèse (30 mg/kg), zinc (150 mg/kg), iode (2 mg/kg), sélénium (0,15 mg/kg), taurine (1 400 mg/kg).  And only 0,35mg of phosphorus.

I also bought her a lot of Sheba chicken with slices, it is the only wet food she likes. But I'm not allowing her to have fish.

I'm not with her now, because I traveled, but my mother has the food.

I'm thinking seriously about probiotics. Looked at Fortiflora but I'm afraid because she has little constipation. She's like me. The problem is not that it is too dry, it is just dry at beginning, the problem is that it is large so it doesn't get out easy anymore, since several months. I already bought Katalax wich has cod liver oil.

What do you advise ?

Names I found on the net:
* Canivida cat and dog
- DHEA : 10 mg (is it harmfull for cats?)
- Silicium organique : 5 mg
- Flore probiotique : 10 mg
- Omega 3 : 10 mg
* Pribiavi cats:
- mixture of 9 strains of probiotics (not very clear)
* Intesyl
- Lactobacillus acidophilus souche LB

This Vitamineral™ Green seems it is for humans ?

[opus88]

Hi Francoise, I'm not sure if DonnaYav is still monitoring this forum,  I hope she see's your questions and gets back to you, she has alot of knowledge on CRF...You could possibly try sending her a 'private message'..go to her profile page and in the upper right hand you'll see where to click on messages.

I'm sorry I know very little to even begin to answer your questions, I can recommend some reading for you tho, if that helps any?

http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/vetmed/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=478487&sk=&date=&pageID=4

you can also go to the site.
www.felinecrf.com

One of your questions about Glucosamine/Chonrodin supplements and the safest brands for cats I can give you the answer to that. these are the products that are recommended.
-NOW Foods-Glucosamine Sulfate OR
-NATURAL FACTORS-MSM joint formula capsules with Glucosamine Sulfate, Chondroitin Sulfate, and MSM

acute stage 500mg day than reduce down to 125mg for long term use.

Sorry I can't offer you any advice on Renal KS, Vitamineral or Renalzin I'm not familiar with these at all.
Please keep us posted on how your kitty is doing, we are all worried parents here.

[francoise_peace]

Hello, I now have her detailed new blood analysis.

She has Kidney problem not because of Phosphorus but because she is old. So I think I'd better give her the best food I can find.

Here I have Happy Cat renal (german food from Zooplus), but I am thinking about buying when the month changes Renal K/D wich is the best because it has vitamin C but not what they like the most.

And the doctor said: avoid the proteins from the wet, so no more Sheba chicken.

So I give you her new values:

Urea 0,774 g/L (high, max is 0,756)
Crea 26,8 mg/L (high, max is 24)
Phos 44,47 mg/L (ok, max is 75)
Ca 102 mg/L (ok, max is 113)
TP 76 mg/L (ok, max is 89)
ALT 51 U/L (ok, max is 130)
ALKP 37 U/L (ok, max is 111)
GLU 1,18 g/L (ok, max is 1,59)
Na 166 mmol/L (high, max is 165)
Cl 126 mmol/L (ok, max is 129)
K 4,9 mmol/L (ok, max is 5,8)

I also had command probiavi feline but the doctor said there might be protein in probiotics, tooth brush and tooth paste but my family is afraid it could be toxic since cats don't know how to spit, and renalzin, doctor said I could give it to her with fortekor 1 morning and 1 night, but since she is not having phosphorus problems, I think it's better to focus on food quality, because it could have side effects if she takes it when no phosphorus problem.

So what would you do ?

[francoise_peace]

I'm just asking a paying question, if you want to see it and comment as users, feel free. Thanks.

http://www.justanswer.com/questions/3tjuc-hello-my-cat-is-very-old-19yo-she-is-starting-kidney-disease?jats=91026-46741454-ER-8rs78dk1-12AC4C53&utm_source=sys&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Button&utm_campaign=AnswerNotify&r=ems|2010-07-31|suba|crev1.1|AnswerNotify

[opus88]

Oh Francoise, I know so little about blood values and levels, or diets for CRF.
did you read the websites I recommended?
Or the ones DonnaYav recommended?
Oh I do think you mean 'normal range of phosphorus of less than 7.5 and not 75?) at least here thats the values I read.

I would follow the Vets recommendations and feed the RenalKS, I know nothing about this food...
Even when kitties phosphorus is still good I read the following:
"if phosphorus can be MAINTAINED in the normal range (less than 7.5) a special medication called CALCITRIOL can be used to help prevent or SLOW the progression of kidney failure"
this was taken from
www.marvistavet.com ...than follow the links for 'chronic renal failure'
sorry I didn't copy the exact site for you, I just have a printout.

the note on this medication says: this med actually represents activated Vit D.
Vit D is not a vitamin in the way other vitamins are or in the way way we think of vitamins, Vit. D is actually a hormone. it plays a very important role in calcium phosphorus balance and is beneficial in PREVENTINE
progression of kidney failure....WHEN ADMINISTERED WHILE PHOSPHORUS LEVELS ARE STILL NORMAL!!!
the doses that are used are exceedingly small and must be compounded by a s special pharmacy .
you can follow the links on that page for instructions on how to obtain and use it.

based on this reading I would sure ask my Vet about this medication.

check out the site I gave you and see if some of your questions can be answered there. unfortunately DonnaYav is no longer posting....she was very knowledgeable on CRF.

I'm sorry I can't be of more help. keep posting to let us know how everything is going.

[francoise_peace]

Hello, yes I had have read everything. I think the sun can also bring vitamin D. Just caress your cat in front of the sun so their hair helps producing vitamin D.

She is taking what the vet call "international treatment":
- 1/2 Fortekor for reducing protein loss (US)
http://www.ah.novartis.com/products/en/fortekor_cat.shtml
- 1 morning / 1 night Renalzin for reducing the phosphate (UK)
http://www.renalzin.co.uk/
- One 8g spoon of Probiavi for natural defenses (Canada)
http://www.probiavi.com/
+
- Renal dry (US and Germany)
http://www.happycat.de/
http://www.hillspet.com/hillspet/utilities/selectLanguage.hjsp
- And I've decided to give her once a week 1 wet Sheba Chicken (UK) since she only likes real slices in the wet and her phosphorus is still ok.
http://www.sheba.com/landing/index.htm
- Low mineralised water for low sodium and low calcium diets (France)
http://www.mont-roucous.com/presentation.htm

I suggested myself to the vet Renalzin and the cat probiotics, but we don't know if it will work.

And I'm not giving her the distilled water, because here tap water is low mineralised, so low mineral water is better, besides it is recommended here in France for humans with chronic kidney disease also.

If the cat probiotics is serious (if no lies) and if the bacterias survived the 1 week shipping + showing the closed bottle to the vet + open and closing the refrigerator, it has inside (when it was sent) more bacillus types and quantity then my probiotics and it is less expensive then mine.

Here is description - which is not available on website maybe because they don't understand it is more important for consumers and vets to have the ingredient list then to be afraid of copyright problems. Plus I wouldn't advise this one if the cat is diabetics because the dextrose gives a sugar taste.

"
Lactobacilles, Bifiodbacteria, Streptococcus, Pediococcus, Enterococcus, FOS and Dextrose, non OGM, Food Frade.
12x10^9 CFGU/GR.
"

To use it I mix it with Renalzin in morning, because:
1) She doesn't eat dry with medicine she can see or smell.
2) If I mix it with water she won't eat it with water.
3) She doesn't like the Renalzin taste, and the dextrose in it makes her likes the Renalzin, she licks herself instead before I clean her.
4) There is no chlore in the Renalzin but there is in cat renal food and there is in tap water of course. Their chlore-potassium is interesting but chlore (Cl-) kills all bacterias good and bad. That's why renal food weaken cats digestive system (I suppose).
5) I'm just afraid the bacterias eat the Renalzin ?

Anyway now that I've discovered that chlore in cat renal food kills intestinal and stomachal flora, me also recommend you any probiotics available for cats in your country.

And second reason: Renalzin takes phosphate from Urinary System to put it in Digestive System, so and if you look for human name of Renalzin (the lantharenol ingredient), you see it's not safe for Digestive System, that's why they spit at beginning, it changes something. So I think it's better that they have probiotics natural defenses supplement.

And make sure to clean your cat after any medication because cat likes to look pretty, they feel better all clean.

[opus88]

sounds like you are reading and using a good regime that I hope will be very useful.

There are articles I have read in the past(sorry can't find again) that cats DON'T absorb Vit D from the sun as we do...so its necessary to supplement. however in very minute doses. YOu would need to read on that one also.

LACTOFERRIN is very good to boost the immune system.
brands to use are
Jarrow
Life extension lactoferrin(apoloctoferrin) capsules
or Symbiotics 100% lactoferrin
20mg per kg of body weight.
tasteless and can be added to food.

Probiotics are also a good choice. hope all these arrive safely.

good luck keep us updated.

[francoise_peace]

I was wondering about what cat bowl material is less toxic for cats with renal disease ? Any suggestions.

Most bowls, are toxic. I was giving her food in baby bowl for the past 1-2 years because bowls for babies should be safe. But since 2 of my cat died, and the bowl material could be part of responsability with aging of course. And before we were more than 15years giving them food on aluminium, but some years they had cat plastic bowls. On aluminium they were younger and didn't have much disease.

Studies on net shows iron is bad:
http://tpx.sagepub.com/content/33/3/398.long
Plastic is bad:
http://www.cas.org/newsevents/melamine.html
Aluminium is bad:
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/165315-overview
I thought ceramic could give cancer because the cat of the brother of my ex only eated in ceramic and died of mouth cancer ? And indeed:
http://www.ceramicstoday.com/articles/toxic_materials.htm

So what do you suggest ? What kind of plate material is less toxic ?

And what about paper, cardboard, wood toxicity... ? Any other ideas ?

[francoise_peace]

I asked french people about plate toxicity, they believe in law, not in science neither in observation. That's why science is so bad in France. In human sciences there is only dogmes of the 70s, and in science they don't dream about discovering new things, they are stuck in habits of the past... no use to speak with my people.

I have another question: I want to measure the PH of my cat's urine ! Could you advise me a good PH test I can buy online ?

http://cats.about.com/od/lowerurinarytractdisease/qt/catsurinpH.htm

[opus88]

goodmorning. The best dishes I can recommend IMO are metal, clean and disinfect easily and don't absorb bacteria like plastic. ceramic I guess its the finish glaze that can be toxic.

Ph test STRIPS are avail through your Vet or even a pharmacy or online.
The one recommended that I've read about is,
"Ten-parameter reagent strip."

Collection of the urine is not an easy thing to do, I would sure like to find a way that works with my Nemo.
good luck.
♥Opus

[francoise_peace]

Giving you new about her: today she was very good. Even if she changed her hours of food. Since she is sick she doesn't eat at all during day, but she eats a lot during night. Today she is eating during day, weird.

And she had a 4 days constipation. Opinion about 3 medicines:

* Katalax: no use, but microlax one day then next day neither, she stopped being consipation when I have done 1 day with no medicine, 1 day with no Fortekor and no Renalzin and no Probiotics. Then she went. And that day I've tried 1 renal k/d wet canned, it has psyllium husk inside (like purina problems) so I was afraid, but she liked this prescription Hill's k/d wet, and the psyllium husk inside did the trick. Very big.

*Psyllium husk inside food. I think it could be dangerous for cats with diarrhea but it was very usefull for cats with chronic constipation. The problem of Purina and Hill's psyllium husk is not: safe or not safe. But rather: constipated or not constipated. Psyllium husk does what cat laxative or microlax doesn't do. So I'm satisfied with psyllium husk and I order canned k/d, could order 24 for 1,25euros with good date garentee at petmed.uk (.fr no -10%).

Personnally, I used a different website for each of my past buyings. But I buy my Fortekor and (some other stuff) at my Vet because in France it is only under prescription. And besides each time I go buying someting at my vet, I discuss a different topic with the vet that is there, so that's where I have my "-10%", free advices are good.

Now I bought Laxatone, hope if problem persists, it'll be better than Katalax.

* Finally, Probiotics. Probiavi is for smell. I'll say it didn't work for smell. My cat's constipation smells less good than before. And it doesn't work for constipation. But, and here is the good point, it works for not vomiting. When she takes her probiotics, all day she is OK, no more vomits like before. Second her mental and physical health is better and her hair is a little better than before even if she doesn't lick herself anymore because of arthrits, I find my cat more beautifull, more shiny, and more intelligent, strong and aware with probiotics. So I recomend Probiavi for vomits and for skin and strength, not for pooh (?) smell.

This is my opinion after 2 weeks of medicine.

[francoise_peace]

Before choosing wich renal cat food to buy, I looked for all weird named ingredients inside. I want to speak about 2 websites that disappeared from Google. I'll call them: The Psyllium Husk Absurde War.

So Purina has psyllium husk inside. I fell on a forum that told a tale about what psyllium husk can cause to a cat ? So that's why it shouldn't be inside pet food. The tale was about digestive system, can't tell more because I don't speak well english, and didn't translate tale. This forum discussion appeared on top of google. Now it might have been deleted.

First there were only websites that spoke bad of psyllium husk that appeared on top of Google, then a fake user's blog about psyllium husk in Purina's food appeared. It's title was something like: Why psyllium husk is safe ? And the address finished in purina.aspx. It was a fake blog because it didn't spoke of his/her cat, neither said that psyllium husk is a laxative. It was the live answer to the forum tale! Both of them were on top of google.

It was written that it could only arrive to a cat what people believed on the net (this explanation that concerned digestive system and that used the same not understandable words then in the forum) ...if the cat only eated a hole plate full of psyllium husk alone, but Purina's food has other ingredients then psyllium husk inside, so the risk of having such dramatic problem is very tiny.

This blog disappeared then. But its existence was an absurdity, because of what I told you. The only information we could get about psyllium husk was a non informative war. Pro and against, but none part defined what is psyllium husk, neither what it is used for? My conclusion on this subject was: the problem with psyllium husk is not if it is safe or not for a cat to eat it, but rather, and this is internationnally understoodable, if it is a laxative or not? If you don't tell cat's owner a medicine is a laxative than it's a poison!

My conlusion on one try of this food with laxative inside is that it works. And I hope it is safe because my cat has a serious constipation.

My conclusion on Purina is that instead of paying fake blogs they should update their label if they want to sell SAFE food.

My conclusion on Hill's psyllium husk, is that instead of following Purina's personnal reaction to cat owners by saying more sillyness then them, is that they should update their label if they want to sell SAFE food.

I've only contacted Hill's (but not shure they will answer since I don't live in USA and in France they only take telefone calls) to tell them:

A drug is a poison if missused and a medicine if used in an appropriate way. So update your label!

Finding Purina's renal food with Psyllium Husk inside is very difficult, because they might have lost a lot of money with this nonsense war. But Hill's must do something. Their food is better quality then Purina's (Hill's is worldwide recommended), so they can sell canned food with Psyllium Husk:

http://www.hillspet.com/products/pd-feline-kd-feline-renal-health-with-chicken-canned.html
Ingredients
Water, Pork Liver, Chicken, Pork By-Products, Brewers Rice, Oat Fiber, Corn Starch, Glucose, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Potassium Citrate, Psyllium Seed Husk, Guar Gum, Calcium Carbonate, Fish Oil, Calcium Sulfate, DL-Methionine, Choline Chloride, Taurine, Iodized Salt, Vitamin E Supplement, L-Cysteine, Glycine, Thiamine Mononitrate, Ascorbic Acid (source of vitamin C), Zinc Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Niacin, Beta Carotene, Manganous Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin, Biotin, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Calcium Iodate, Folic Acid, Sodium Selenite.

I left a review about Psyllium Husk must be well labeled on 2 websites, the one I've ordered canned Hill's and another that I look a lot but still have not bought:
http://www.petmeds.co.uk/p-230-hills-feline-kd.aspx

http://www.vetuk.co.uk/ (they still did not put it on).

But anyway, if ou agree with my user's opinion, I highly recommend you to review all Prescription Hill's canned cat food that contains Psyllium Husk additive by adding something like that:
** * **
I recommend this wet food for cats with kidney disease (low sodium and low phosphorus) with chronic constipation (psyllium husk).

Medical label of all cat food that contains " psyllium husk " must be updated. Please change label to mantain quality.

Warning: Not recommended for Kittens, Pregnant or lactating queens or Cats with sodium depletion, and cats with diarrhea.
** * **
And if you know Purina – wich I don't – just adapt the review with what you know about it.

I think it's a better way to finish a war in a intelligent way than deleting or adding websites that don't inform consummers.

Mine is again on third day of constipation, but I hope paraffin (Laxatone) will do well.She might have a microlax at the end of the day. And I hope when Hill's canned food arrive, she'll be better.

=======================================

@Opus88: About PH test strips, I'll look for them in pharmacy, but Vet said it is not very usefull, the only thing you can do with them is saying: the cat can have cristals if PH is too basic. But what they prefer to measure is urinary density, but bringing urine from the litter is not good, because litter has impurities that makes urine denser, so either to measure it she must directly **** in a recipient, either they can extract urine with a needled syringe, wich I don't want.

I'm feeding her on aluminium paper again. But still don't know for what to change. I'll try to wash better her dishes.

[opus88]

you have so many questions it would take me an eternity to go over dear.
I will just comment on a few items you spoke of and give you more reading ok.

first of all psyillium husks are not a medicine! they are a soluble FIBER and more needed in the case of diarrhea.
for constipation I wouldn't use, it could cause more of a inpassable stool UNLESS kitty is drinking huge amounts of water!!
A safe additive to kitties food would be canned/or fresh pumpkin.
I would stress that after 3 days kitty needs a Vets help and perhaps an enema, you shouldn't let this go any longer.

PH stips DO need a fresh collection of urine yes!!...........they will measure if urine is acidic or alkalline. the Vets tests are much more accurate...with kidney's you want to be sure the tests are accurate, follow your Vets advice.

I will give you a reliable website concerning commercial pet foods....do NOT believe everything you read on web blogs esp claims by the manufacturer of any product.
there are good and not so good foods out there, I will give you this reading to make up your own mind, but I STRESS with kidney disease a special diet is necessary.!!
www.catinfo.org/commercialcannedfoods.htm
this woman is a well respected Vet! and gives very knowledgeable advice.

I also stress when reading pet food labels............see the second or third ingredient... MEAT BY PRODUCTS.
do you know what they mean by ...by-products?
this can be anything from beaks, feet, hides............and UNUSABLE part of an animal that should be thrown out, can and will be put into pet food, remember pet foods are not regulated like human food...so by products can be anything......they will use any part of the animal and get away with labeling as meat by products...
also watch GRAINS....again any thing can be added here whether its beneficial to a pet or not. they are ALL fillers meant more for a cheap way for these manufacturers to fill a can CHEAPLY...its always about financial gain and NOT the health of a pet.
Keep in mind the grains and vegtables contribute to the carbs and protein content of food BUT understand that the protein from thses ingredients are plant based NOT animal based. Cats are strict carnivores and need to get their protein from other animals NOT plants...................

didn't mean to get carried away here. read the site it will answer all of your pet food questions.  It also give resources on how to contact manufactures for more info.
Take all this into consideration, but again I stress after reading this consult with your Vet. Go with the good quality pet food that is best for renal problems.
good luck, hope kitty is doing well.

♥Opus

[francoise_peace]

I'm not completely conviced that cats are strict carnivores because mine like her catnip grass. If you ever now about a canip grass with other herbs than grass (some sites say it's hordeum ?), I would take some for her.

I'm indeed very lost in wet cat renal food, because until now the only wet food she had accepted is sheba chicken and tuna (but I'm not giving her tuna, and I've asked sheba about % of phosphorus and sodium and protein in their sheba chicken, but I'm not sure they will answer). There are 2 kidney wet food she doesn't like, one is Royal Canin, but I disagree with her because it looks good for health, and the other one I don't know the name. It was a surprise she liked renal k/d with psyllium husk inside. Didn't know it could be dangerous for constipation ? Indeed a lot of websites say it's for constipation, some say it's for diarrhea, some say it's for both.

She doesn't like chunks (pouches) and she doesn't like gelatinous pastes, she only likes with real slices or with something she can lick (like paraffin). I think she doesn't like mastication if it's soft. If you know of a wet renal food with real slices or very very pasty, just tell me.

I still a bit afraid of canned k/d. If she likes it, I can't deduce if psyllium husk has something to do with its taste or not ?

I found a very comparative website, but it doesn't speak about Sheba, neither the Integra Protect (german) renal wet food I could buy from Zooplus:
http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/canfood.htm

The poor website owner lost her cats.

I don't know if my cat is pretending to be better for me to feel better? She is a little overweight and perhaps she has lost a little bit weight and that made her feel better? She let's me more control her and she still " speaks " a little about everything she is doing.

I still maintain that Probiotics is related with her not vomit, because when I give them later on day, before she starts not having a very good stomach, then she's fine.

http://www.vetuk.co.uk/ is the only website that answered me, normal, English people likes a lot cats, and in a serious way, for the first time. They told me now they can sell to France, and they'll mail my e-mail to Hill's again, asking them to put " laxative " on their canned food. And if Psyllium Husk is not a laxative, since it has an effect they didn't understood neither, they're professionals, I believe, if Hill's listen to us, they'll put the right labelling, may it be " soluble fibers " like you've said. If it is dangerous for constipation as you've said (I thought it caused diarrhea), they'll put: " not to use on constipation ", I hope.

I've already ordered them, my cat is 19years old, she liked them, and now I'm afraid. Moreover I don't know what is better than Hill's ?

What canned food do you give to your cat with Kidney ?

About NO GRAIN, now Happy Cat (german) dry has no grain, but they don't sell: no grain + kidney, I heard that Wellness also have no grain, but I don't think they have kidney + no grain neither.

And I've added a new photo to my profil, my beautifull cat !!! You also all have beautifull cats !!!

[francoise_peace]

About PH strips, neither the vet neither the pharmacy don't sell them. Pharmacy told me they can't order because they can't find it's product code inside the PC. Any websites suggestion ?

[francoise_peace]

Hey, I've found on the net, even on Amazon.com:
Rapid Response 10 Parameter (10SG) Urinalysis Reagent Test Strips, 100 Strips/Bottle

But I must be sure PH has cat PH range ]6-6.5[

Urinalysis Reagent Strips provide tests for glucose, bilirubin, ketone, specific gravity, blood, pH, protein, urobilinogen nitrite, and leukocytes.

If it has and if I show it to the vet, I think all vets will be admired, because this is better then showing cat probiotics to a vet!

ooooooooh it tells also protein level !

http://www.medexsupply.com/product_info.php?products_id=19450#products_notes
http://www.amazon.com/Response-Parameter-Urinalysis-Reagent-Strips/dp/B001EUAXZM

[francoise_peace]

I've found that explanation:
Urinalysis Dipstick Interpretation
http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/clerk/sine/index.php

If I buy a similar product (yes, we can lower the price), I don't intend to collect my cat urine, just put the paper under the cat without touching litter while she is doing her needs.

And better NOT ask the Vet, because he can only hurt the animal to get its urine. I know my cat, she doesn't need torture to urinate on a different paper. She's used to urinate on old magazines that we put sliced in the litter. And PH test is just another piece of paper, it won't bother her at all urinating on it.

Most test measure are not significant for pets.

For cats (quotes from http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/clerk/sine/index.php):

PH (very important to have a zoomed urinanalysis range)**********
Urine pH also may provide good predictive assessment of crystal and stone morphology as certain crystals and stones form in either acidic or alkaline environments. Uric acid, cystine, and calcium oxalate crystals are found in acidic urine. On the other hand, struvite, calcium carbonate, calcium phosphate, ammonium biurate, and amorphous phosphate crystals are found in alkaline urine.5

Glucose (don't need it)*********
Glucose is not detectable in the urine of healthy dogs or cats.

Protein  (maybe)*********
Thus, only a very small amount of protein is normally excreted in the urine, which is not usually clinically detectable.
Proteinuria of renal disease may be due to glomerular and/or tubular lesions.

Blood (important)************
If the renal threshold is exceeded, the hemoglobin can pass into the urine.
Healthy animals should have negative test results.

Bilirubin (only interesting for dogs)**********
However, bilirubinuria is always abnormal in cats.

Ketones ??????***********

Urobilinogen (unuseful)**********
This test is not of significant value in animals.

Nitrite (maybe)***********
high number of false negative test results in small animals
Nitrites occur in urine during some bacterial infections.

Leukocytes (only interesting for dogs)***********
False positive test results often occur in cats, and this test is clinically unreliable.

So only measuring PH, Blood and perhaps Nitrites and Protein in urine are interesting. Above, more quotes:

Summary of Dipstick Analysis

pH - Expected Results (cats or dogs they don't tell, but check another website for more exactitude): 5.0 to 6.0
Interpretation of Results:
Acidic: meat diet; acidosis; low chloride; acidifying agents Alkaline: vegetable based diet; bacterial infection; alkalosis; urine exposed to air for extended times; administration of alkalinizing agents; postprandial tide
Causes of False Positives (or Increase): glucose in urine.

Blood -  Expected Results: Negative.
Interpretation of Results: Positive: hematuria: trauma, infection, inflammation, infarction, calculi, neoplasia, or coagulopathy hemoglobinuria: myoglobinuria.
Causes of False Positives (or Increase): bleach contamination; high levels of bromide or iodide; ***** in heat.
Causes of False Negatives (or Decrease): poorly mixed urine.

Nitrite -  Expected Results: Negative.
if + -> bacterial infection
Causes of False Negatives (or Decrease) : common in small animals.

Protein - Expected Results: Negative to Trace.
If + -> hemorrhage; urinary infection; intravascular hemolysis; renal disease
Causes of False Positives (or Increase): alkaline urine; disinfectant residue.
Causes of False Negatives (or Decrease): dilute or acidic urine.

Now I must focus on detailed PH urinanalysis tests.

:)

[francoise_peace]

Ok, so I've bought mine at: https://www.thehealthhound.com/aboutphpaper.html
2 to France for $17,23 USD, they were the world's cheapest PH sellers :) perhaps because it's intended for aquariums because aquariums are not that simple (Don't try Amazon.com because it's +13,90euros to Europe)

Now I'll have to find myself a job !!!

I'll give one as present to the vet because price was unbreakable:
"The range of our pH paper is from 5.5 to 8.0. Vivid color changes show specific changes for each 0.2 pH increment. A color chart is included with each roll purchased."
(ph Hydrion paper 5.5 - 8)

Living 19years with a cat it's a lot, so I consider her as my daughter, although in cat age she is older than me (perhaps 90yo?): found in September 1991 in Mahé, Seychelles, moved to 3 countries, had a difficult life, and is getting old in well and calm with all the food she wants.

Before I had her adopted sister also, and the son and daughter of her daughter. But all died, 2 of them very recently. It was very hard for me.

When she was young, once she even ran away from home several months, because we were feeding a street cat that didn't like her very much, a territory problem. And she was lucky not to be poisoned by neighbors. Islands are difficult with cats.

Here she doesn't have a garden, but she is very old, and can't climb higher than my bed, has ostheoporosis or arthrosis (about 4years ago they did a radio and asked me how is she alive? She ate a lot of Cosequin this year but I'm afraid it could have damaged kidney, don't know). But she has me and that's all that counts!

It has been 2 years that she is deaf. She adores caressing her nice hair to communicate. Before she knew her name.

I hope it is because she is lost in space, deaf, and ostheoporosis that she miaws for everything, not because of PH, please ! And I sure hope Renalzin will save her from kidney disease.

[opus88]

Oh I can tell how much you love your little girl just through all the research you are doing to try and help her...19 y.o...my goodness you have taken such good care of her to give her such a long life.
Kitties I'm told adapt well to being deaf with a little help, thats so sweet how she communicates with you now.
You are doing all you can for her I can see that, if her kidneys should fail its not because you didn't try everything you could...Like I said before I know noting about Renalzin. But I'm sure your Vet would know whats best for her.

I wouldn't be concerned about the psyillium husks in the food, it would be such a small amount. with people I do know its beneficial for both constipation and diarrhea...since its fiber...as long as theres alot of moisture to help it along. with can pet foods they are 78% moisture so thats a good thing!!

Yes it is traumatic for a Vet to expel urine from kitties...I hate it when this has to be done...
that is so good you can get her to pee with a PH strip underneath, thats great!! theres no way mine would allow me to do that.
another way is to have a litter tray with glass beads in it instead of litter, when she pee's just pour it out since it won't be absorbed by the glass..just be sure to do the test as soon as kitty urinates because the longer it sits the more alkaline it will become.

you are aware that this will only test if urine is alkaline or acidic. Only blood tests evaluate the function of the kidneys!!

give kitty a huge from us all..............whats her name by the way?

♥Opus

[francoise_peace]

Minou !!!!!

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
*******************************************************************************
*******************************************************************************

To people that are looking for Renalzin's side effect or Lantharenol side effect, I read about it, don't know if http://vetuk.co.uk will put my review, but I put the hole personnal (not doctor) review here:

I recommend you to mix Renalzin with a good cat probiotics of your choice in the morning. Probiotics have on my cat a one-day no-vomiting effect, and after 2 weeks it have drastically improved her mental health. Probiotics are bacterias, not chemicals, they protect your cat stomach and bowl from side-effects* of good chemical molecules like lantharenol and helps eliminating digestive system toxins that could pass into kidney. And some probiotics could give a better taste to Renalzin.
*Most common lantharénol side-effects on humans [1/10;1/100]: hypocalcemia, abdominal pain, constipation, diarrhea, dyspepsia, flatulence, nausea, vomiting.
*Less common [1/100;1/1000]: Hyperparathyroidism, eructation, stomatitis, esophagitis, gastro-intestinal NOS, edema, loose stools, dental disease, dizziness, fatigue, etc...
Data from Fosrenol (Lanthanum carbonate): "these side-effects decrease in time and if medicine is taken during meals." Study on 1745 human patients that used it over a year.
It may work, so good luck !!!

******************************************************************************
******************************************************************************
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Side effects of all kitties medicines is very hard to find, but you must find them: humans = animals -> humans rights = animals rights !!! :) All my loving !!!

[francoise_peace]

Plenty of personnal answers about my cat in my SPAM box! Why does Yahoo takes answers of my questions as SPAMS ? grrrrrr I'm angry with Yahoo.

Any way thank you Gaétan Simard from Probiavi Feline and Bird Probiotics from having personally answered each e-mail I sent to commercial people not having personal e-mail of scientists. Thank you !!!

[DonnaYav]

HELLO AGAIN..Been very busy with family health concerns and working so haven't been on here in a while.
My cat is doing great on having regular daily bowel movements now.
I have started giving her Sub Q fluids at home, twice a week, she has been taking the vitamineral green now for over a month or so.
In question to the Vitamineral Green being for Human consumption, yes it is but also can be given to pets..Healthforce, the maker of Vitamineral green also had a product called Green Mush but the only reason I did not go with it is because it contains Burdock root which I researched very well and it may not be the best herb for a cat with CRF.
You can check out a good article on CRF and treaments, supplements, herbs that are helpful .It also mentions Vitamineral Green.www.pethealth.abeautifulurn.com/herbal-cures-crf.html
In my quest to find natural treatments for my CRF cat I have found a few that seem promising...
1)Recent research has shown benefits from probiotics in cats with crf. Kidney values (BUN & Creatine) levels decreased significantly when probiotics are given in canned food.
2)Soluble & insoluble fiber helps to remove toxins from the body so kidneys are not overworked.
3)b-complex, helps to build up red blood cells and also may stimulate appetite

I am not promoting the Vitamineral Green, I just know this product is 100% food, contains chlorphyll, soluble & insoluble fiber, probiotics,omega 3 fatty acids, chlorella and Spirulina which are both very high in b vitamins that crf cats seem to be deficient in due to frequent urination and depletion of these water soluble vitamins..Vitamineral Green also states it alkalizes the body , so this is good .
Like I said the Green mush is also an excellent product probably but I was a little uncomfortable about it containing burdock root , however that was my decision.
I give my cat 1/8 teaspoon, twice a day, mix it in her food and she likes it..It also keeps her from eating grass and throwing up so the chlorophyll in it must satisfy this urge

Canned food I am now giving is Wellness grain free turkey and Soulistic grain free in Chicken Karma and in Chicken with pumpkin..I get these foods at our local Petco.
I do not give dry food as I have stated before, I am a firm believer that dry is not the best for CRF cats since it does not contain any moisture..

I will have her kidney values done again in about another month to see where they are at, but the fluids I know help her and also help with the constipation which has not been an issue for over a month and a half now..

Have a good one..and hope all is well with your baby.

[francoise_peace]

Hello, I think blood results are important, but how you feel your cat is going is also important. Does he/she eats more or less then at begining of kidney ? Drinks ? Do you think that it is kidney disease, or it is renal food, or it is renal medicine that have make your cat constipated or with diarrhea ? Is the cat traumatised with taken his medicine or does he eats eat without problems. Does she/he feels bad after eating the medicine ? Or does she/he feels better ? And how much time does it takes for the cat to get used to and to feel better or worse ?

My history with Fortekor is the following. A vet said: give 1 Fortekor to your cat because she is a little overweight. My cat trusts me: she ate the pill without food. But then she felt vegetalised. So I decided she'll only have half, but changed posology after 1 day of no giving. The other vet said I was right, it was too much. Now when I put half Fortekor on the food and she smells it, she associates it with being vegetalised, so she asks me for a new food, I have to put on food with Fortekor, else she won't eat Fortekor because it traumatised her.

***There is a big problem with all animal medicine, they are all food supplements. We don't know nothing about side effects. And we know few about real effects. So it is extremely important to watch your cat at the beginning of kidney disease.***

So even if here in France, Vets don't advise Q Synt Fluids, maybe because here perfusion don't work at all on cats, maybe their liquids are contamined with something they don't know or maybe french water put something in cat's organism that reacts bad to it. I want to kow if it has a benefic effect on your cat ? And if she/he got used to have Q Synt Fluids ? Or if he/she is traumatized with this ?

And I also want to know if Vitamineral Green that contains Probiotics, Enzyms, and Herbal Medicine has an effect (short term or long term) on your cat that you can observe ?

***It is really important because the cause of kidney diseases are multiple and obscure, and most of the time it doesn't correspond to what a specific medicine treats.***

Even Fortekor, I'm not sure it's good for all cats, I don't think it's good for mine, but I'm not a vet and I'm trusting vets on it. But if I were a vet, I don't think I would give Fortekor to her. As long as she is not vegetalised, half is OK. More for prevention will sure lead to death in no time. Although most vets thinks we should overdose the Fortekor, but as long as she is with me, they are not going to experiment more Fortekor on her.

There is also something else I want to say, I'm not sure minerals are good to kidney. I'm not a doctor. But I'm giving low mineralised water to my cat, even if she doesn't drinks quantities like Q Synth Fluids cats, because in France they advise low mineralised water for people with CRF. But the mineral question is relative, since it doesn't seems to be true minerals, but plants that helps mineralisation to occur in the medicine you're showing us.

I also must say, all medicine can be good, but just can be.

But thanks for the probiotics idea, I wouldn't have try it if it wasn't you!

I'm statisfied with Gaétan Simard idea of proposing specific probiotics to cats, may he be a naturalist or a scientist, and even if I use it's medicine for other purpose than smell. I hope scientists will help him, if my intuition is good, because I know a little about naturalist people, they are like Lamarck, Buffon or Darwin, down-up thinkers that can see what scientists can't, but most of them don't go into publication, and it is the first time I met a naturalist specialised in bacterias. But about him being a naturalist is just an intuition. And I also hope prices stay affordable because it is true that when all my cats were alive, they were a big family, my cat and her adopted sister and her grand-children. So I understand why their probiotics is family-size.

[DonnaYav]

Hello,
My cat does not take any prescription medications now, with the sub Q fluids that I give her every 5 days and perhaps the choice of food and the Vitamineral green, she has had no issues with constipation. As a matter of fact she sometimes goes twice a day !

Her phosphorus level was not high last time I had bloodwork done on her so I really don't need any phosphorus binders as of yet and she has a healthy appetite with no vomiting.

Sub Q fluids, I have read that once the renal values reach (bun) 60 or above that the kidneys would benefit from it.
Her bun is 58 last checked about 2 1/2 months ago and the vet suggested the fluids at least twice a week so I learned how to do them and we have started them at home.
She is not real happy with this, sometimes I only reach 100 cc and have to give the other 100 a day or two later..I think it is more stressful on me than it is on her!

Hmm, things I have noticed, well she is not eating grass outside when we go out in our fenced in back yard (which is untreated), which always ended up with her throwing up, her appetite remains really good, she has not even been throwing up an ocassional hairball in a month or so, her fur is shiny and soft, she follows me around outside which it appears that she has more energy...
As far as test results we are going next month for recheck on her kidney values and also to check her red blood cell values so I can't tell you yet if her kidney values are remaining steady or if they may have improved slightly..

The copious amounts of water she was drinking has changed slightly, I am looking into getting her an elevated food bowel, I have read that it helps with arthritic cats and also with their digestive systems (they don't have to bend down so far)..

Your welcome on the probiotics, we can also benefit from them !

Have a good week,

[opus88]

hi and welcome back! so glad kitty is doing so well. I agree totally with the probiotics thanks for the great info.

[DonnaYav]

Thanks Opus88.

I guess a recheck on her kidney function in a few weeks will tell me if what I am doing is benefiting her or not..
I am not real big on herbs  and I wish this food supplement only contained the chlorella, spirulina, omegas, insoluble and soluble fibers and all the  probiotics but until I come across something compatible or until the "results are in " (bloodwork) I will continue with the vitamineral green..
She is also borderline anemic , so it will be interesting to see if any of this plant based food containing iron, b vitamins have made a difference or not..

She started on the Vitamineral green July 9th, so the second week of September I will take her in for blood values..

It is so hard to know if you are doing the right things for your animals sometimes as I had a crf cat that lived for four years after being diagnosed.
We learn by our "mistakes" the hard way as now I really think my deceased cat had to be put down due to fluid that accumulated around her lungs and heart and the sub Q fluids that they insisted was absolutely necessary may have contributed to it. She was receiving fluids , I believe three times a week or more and I have now read that when an animal is on this therapy you should monitor for fluid retention by feeling them to see if they feel squishy (not right after fluids are given but perhaps before you take them in again for more fluids) and if so do not give anymore fluids until the squishy feeling has diminished.Also you should not put the wheel on the fluid bag all the way up as the fluids come out too fast and fluid can accumulate in their lungs or around their heart...(that's why I give them at home now as techs say that will not happen but I have a tendency to disagree)

The problem is, we sometimes assume our vets know everything and put them somewhat on a pedestal, when we can not do this, we have to do our research, ask questions, be knowledgeable..
So with this being said I now check things out more thoroughly, ask questions and am not afraid to get a second opinion..
I wish it was mandatory for all doctors, vets to have to take a nutrition course and pay more attention to side effects on prescription medications instead of just prescribing medications that could be detrimental to our health and our animal's health.
If my cats' blood values are worse by some chance I am going to look into a good probiotic, go back to my Icelandic unscented salmon oil and ask the vet if they have a good b-complex.. I might also , along with these just give her Pet Sun Chlorella, the chlorella is cleansing and the greens seem to work as far as her eating grass and then throwing up..
Will let you all know when I get results back (probably be in September around the second week).
She loves Soulistic brand canned cat food, it is shredded, covered by a gravy and is relatively low in phosphorus but have not gotten the level on sodium yet but Petco employee said he would try to find out ..I give her the Chicken Karma and the chicken karma with pumpkin..It is grain free.
Have a good one..

[opus88]

OMG Donna you will soon have a full vet license if you keep this up, I am truly amazed with all the knowledge you've aquired, good for you...its obvious how much this kitty means to you....I'm sorry but somewhere did I miss her name????
I know nothing about IV therapy, other than I've read the daily dose shouldn't exceed 10ml/per lb. and that appears to be the amount you are giving. higher amounts in the case of severe dehydration or shock are warranted.
I found a site that should interest you since you are worried over the ill effects of SubQ therapy, hope the reading helps but doesn't scare.

http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=WSAVA2008&PID=24051&O=Generic

best of luck to you both, you are a good mommy ♥Opus

[DonnaYav]

Thanks Opus,
Her name is Ezmeralda...
Over the years I have learned that you , as an animal owner , need to be knowledgeable and involved in your pet's health care.I have learned by mistakes , putting total trust in vets(they are only human beings like us and do not know everything)..
My girl has had two normal bowel movements this morning already, yesterday, none so she has made up for that today!
Soulistic canned cat food, she loves it! Made by WERUVA especially for Petco, has human grade ingredients, grain free, low ash, lower phosphorus 0.25 max,calcium 0.25 max. I buy her Good Karma chicken and Harvest Sunrise Chicken & Pumpkin dinner and occasionally sneak in Chicken and Tilapia on rare occasions ..
Soulistic looks to be the same thing as Weruva canned cat food only it is called Soulistic because it is made especially for Petco..
I still use Wellness no grain turkey but she doesn't dive into it as well as she does the Soulistic.
I got her an elevated food dish, husband bent the legs up more so it is more elevated and it has a stainless steel dish for food and one for water. I hope this is better for her so she doesn't have to bend way down to eat or drink (I still have two more water dishes around the house for her also)..
Thanks for the great link and yes, they were giving her 200 of the sub Q fluids at once, I only give 100 and then give her 100 more a few days later..I also do not turn it on full force, it takes longer but I think this is more therapeutic and better for her..

Have a good one..

[opus88]

Ezmeralda...nice!
Yes I too have learned not to trust the Vets totally..they are trained in various animals and many don't specialize in cats alone, thus I too like to do my own research and come to my own conclusions.
My OPus had to be put down 5 yrs ago after keeping him alive for an extra 3 yrs with medication and specialists...they did know alot more than I, but I've since gained more knowledge on his particular problem in the hopes that I can prevent or treat my other two better than I was prepared to do for him...we learn unfortunately by mistakes sometimes.
some caution with miralax from advice I've been given. it does increase bulk and soften the stools, however because it causes to swell in the process it will eventually lead to a condition called 'mega colon'....occasional use preferably over daily use.
rice bran and probiotics preferably for daily use...I need to get this for my Nemo who also has a constipation problem thats why I looked into the miralax.
Sounds like you've chosen some excellent foods, I'm not familiar with the brands other than Wellness....human grade meat with no added grains...can't go wrong there!!

hopefully you'll continue to post with us, we appreciate all the good knowledge you can lend us all.

best to you and Ezmeralda

♥Opus

[DonnaYav]

never heard about Miralax causing megacolon...
I know it draws water into the bowel.
Have just found out though if your animal has CRF you should not give it to them probably because it takes water away from the kidneys, go figure..I have not used it for months now, thank God whatever we are doing sems to work really well for her bowels...
Thanks for the IM..

[opus88]

sorry Donna don't know where myhead is today.....meant to post the miralax info on another thread...not you thats using it..
great that what you are doing is more suitable, we just never know at times if what we are doing is harmful or helpful.
pumpkin is good, can't get mine to take that one tho. will go the probiotic route he loves yogurt. ..lol

best to you both.

♥Opus

[francoise_peace]

Hello, I see your cats lived at least 4 years after CRF. It's very long.

My cat is having a lot constipation. Often 3-4days. What is better working for her is microlax baby, try to find something similar to micralax but that is meant for babies with constipation.

I think today I'm going to do another no medicine day, hoping her constipation will pass. What she did was very little, I'm expecting more.

Katalax wich contains malt and cod liver oil doesn't work at all with her. Laxatone wich contains paraffin, vaseline and malt works slightely better. But can't compare to microlax baby.

Microlax baby isn't working very well neither, but a least, after about 10 hours, it did a little effect. Usually in other cats it has instant effects.

And I wouldn't give cat a powder human laxative because they are too chemical. Microlax baby is human but less dangerous.

Hope Ezmeralda is well and Nemo is well.

[francoise_peace]

Hey, if you have good CRF products to suggest. http://www.vetuk.co.uk/ is collecting suggestions.

Just type the product name in the search box, and if you don't find it, fill the form that appears automatically after each search. I've suggested Probiavi, Microlax Bébé and Laxatone. I don't know any other.

-> There are no products on Vet UK that match what you searched for.

Is there a product that you would like us to stock, or other comment that you would like to make?
If so, please fill in the form below and we would be glad to get back to you.

[zodiacqueen]

Hi, you should ask your vet to teach you how to give her IV fluids at home to rehydrate her.  She's dehydrated due to the kidney disease and that's what's causing the constipation.  Once she's hydrated again, she'll have a much easier time pooping.

And, another option is giving enemas at home.  Please ask your vet about this, because you have to learn how to do it and they can have only mineral oil enemas.  The other types are harmful.  The enemas work good......that's what my kitty gets a few times a week(doesn't have kidney disease).  She gets a baby enema with mineral oil.

Hope some of these suggestions are of some help to you!!  =)

Good luck to you!!

[DonnaYav]

I know how stressful it is having a cat with constipation issues, I start getting a little anxious when she does not go for one day !
If your cat has not gone for 2 days already adding fiber does not always help, not going for 3 days, adding fiber such as pumpkin, etc can actually make matters worse sometimes as they are already somewhat blocked and fiber only makes their stool more bulkier and hardier to pass a stool.
You can try Slippery Elm INNER bark, most health food stores already carry it in the inner bark as the outer bark is toxic to cats..It can come in powder bulk form or you may be able to find it in capsule form which can be opened up and 1/8 teaspoon mixed into a little bit of their food twice daily..some cats do not like the taste, mine has no problem when I ocassionally give it to her but if this is an issue you can buy Stage 1 baby food (make sure it does NOT contain any onion) and turkey or chicken meat based ones usually appeal to crf cats..
Only warning is if your cat has high calcium levels it should not be used on a regular basis  and slippery elm should be given an hour before any medications or any hour after as it can interfer with the absorption of other meds or supplements. Otherwise it is perfectly safe for cats and cats with CRf (chronic renal failure).
It also has other benefits, it helps with digestive and intestional problems such as vomiting, nausea (usually because of overactive stomach acids), diarrhea & CONSTIPATION.It coats and soothes the stomach lining and reduces irritation.
Safe and non toxic, no worries about overdosing..
Be very careful when using Petromalt, laxatone, mineral oil on a steady basis, it can interfer with the absorption of nutrients..Petromalt and laxatone are routinely prescribed by vets but they are really intended for hairballs.

If your cat has not had a bowel movement for 3-4 days you may need to take to vet and an enema may be necessary to clean them out, then you can try other methods to try to keep them regular:
If cat is dehydrated fluid therapy may be needed (crf cats have constipation issues due to frequent urination)
Fluid therapy does help but at some point you may need to include other treatments along with it.
After bowels are cleaned out or cat has a normal bowel movement:
Pumpkin Puree (regular canned pumpkin contains sugar and any cat with blood sugar issues should not have)
Baby food stage 1 squash

Sometimes constipation issues in a CRF cat is due to dehydration, low potassium levels or by high calcium levels. Treating these problems may help your crf cat tremendously with their constipation issues..
Never begin any treatment on your own till you contact and consult with your vet...such as potassium supplements..

Best to you and your baby

[francoise_peace]

Microlax bébé is a little enema for babies that contains:
Sorbitol cristallisable à 70%
Citrate de sodium
Laurysulfoacétate de sodium à 70%
Excipients: Acide sorbique, glycerol, eau purifiée

You just put it on his anus after lubricating it with itself. Just use one per day and do not use it always.

Yesterday it did not have instant effect, today it have. Last time was the same. First day didn't, just small balls. Second day did, bigger one.

Since she is not having Q Synth Fluids, she is having a lot of water.
- She drinks water whenever I ask her. In that I am lucky, but I must encourage her to go drinking water by herself and not serve her as a princess.
- And from time to time I'm gently forcing her to drink extra-water 2-6 mL behind her teeth, slowly and letting her breathe, so that she drinks normally.

I don't know the future. But today she is not looking dehydrated.

[francoise_peace]

I had translated it, but I was speaking with someone, sorry:

Microlax bébé (enema for babies, also used by my Vet):

Crystallizable sorbitol 70%
Sodium citrate
Laurysulfoacétate sodium 70%
Excipients: Sorbic acid, glycerol, purified water

And thanks for both comments.

[DonnaYav]

This is good that you slowly put water in and allow to breath..Sounds like you are doing it appropriately as cats can aspirate if it is not done right..Aspiration can occur when they are being given a liquid through a syringe and it is given too fast , the liquid can then be forced into the trachea and lungs causing pneumonia. sometimes..

Best to you and the little one..

[francoise_peace]

Do you know anything about cutting cat nails ?
I have bought:
- Mini nail clippers (wich doesn't looks like big cat nail scissors in YouTube)
- Mikki pet nail file

I can cut or file an tip, and don't dare doing more. Her back nails are big, but I won't touch her front nails because they're useful to hang on furniture. She doesn't do her nails on furniture any more, it has been at least 6years because of ostheo. She has a mat but she uses it once a month if she is feeling fine.

And I don't find her nails enough translucid to see if there is a nerv.

I found her in September 1991, so this might be her real 19th when September will come.

humm I've found a website that tells Cosequin components can be toxic at high doses. She has stopped Cosequin for a while.
SODIUM CHONDROITIN SULFATE
http://www.cosmeticsdatabase.com/ingredient.php?ingred06=723686
* Developmental/reproductive toxicity
* Lesser or emerging concerns for this ingredient: Neurotoxicity, Endocrine disruption, Organ system toxicity (non-reproductive), Data gaps
MANGANESE
http://www.cosmeticsdatabase.com/ingredient/703736/MANGANESE/
* Cancer
* Developmental/reproductive toxicity
* Other strong concerns for this ingredient: Persistence and bioaccumulation, Organ system toxicity (non-reproductive), Occupational hazards
* Other moderate concerns for this ingredient: Neurotoxicity
* Lesser or emerging concerns for this ingredient: Irritation (skin, eyes, or lungs), Data gaps
GLUCOSAMINE HCL
http://www.cosmeticsdatabase.com/ingredient/702596/GLUCOSAMINE_HCL/
* Cancer
* Lesser or emerging concerns for this ingredient:
Neurotoxicity, Organ system toxicity (non-reproductive), Data gaps

It is true Cosequin's brochure says : Initial 4 to 6 Week Administration.
http://www.nutramaxpet.com/Products/Cosequin-Cats.aspx

Vet's should only say 2 months administration per year. And it'll be better for old kitties.

I'm beginning to think all kitties medicine have side effects, but no one tells us. There should be a general revolution for this problem one day. It's not believable that a medicine that can cure something doesn't have side effects. We'll have to create Facebook groups and other social groups to mend all this.

[francoise_peace]

Side-effects of animal medicine (cat - dogs - birds): For label revolution.

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/group.php?gid=148728665150735

:)

[opus88]

I'm a little confused Fran the websites above you quoted are for cosmetics...therefore the side effects reported of glucosamine HCL are when these cosmetics are used on our bodies...these reports aren't about internal use, and as far as I know(?) there are no similar side effects for ingesting glucosamine HCL.

ALL medications have side effects.
Supplements can too if used incorrectly or in great amounts.

I use Glucosamine/Chonrotoin for one of my cats and have studied holistic info strickly for pet use, this product is the ONE that is SAFE for pet use. always use human grade supplements there are fewer ingredients(less is best) and more info on the labels than on ones sold for pets.
If you cannot order from iherb than I suggest you study the ingredients and try to obtain a similar product, however Natural Factors brand is of the highest recommended.
http://www.iherb.com/Natural-Factors-Glucosamine-Chondroitin-Sulfates-900-mg-120-Capsules/2591?at=0

I use the product for FLUTD and a maintenance dose of 125mg daily via syringe.
you'll have to follow your Vets recommendation for the amount to use for  joint issues/arthritic issues..also with your kitties health issues.

From all I have read this brand and the combo of ingredients is the one SAFEST for cats.
hope this helps.

♥Opus

[DonnaYav]

I have used Glucosamine/chrondroitin in the past for EZ..I bought it from the  vet, Cosequin.
I was using it at the time for Interstitial cystitis for her.At the time we thought perhaps she had this, but now I think back and perhaps it was the beginning of her renal failure instead.
I called the vet to inquire about Azodyl , they do not have it but had Epakitin, which when the receptionist called back said that the vet told her that these two were very similar , wrong, I told her they were not, Azodyl is a probiotic with psyillum husk and Epakitin was a phosphorus blocker that has lactose, calcium carbonate and chitosan and that you have to be careful with it because of the risk of creating hypercalcemia(sp?) in cats and should never be given if your cat has elevated calcium levels..Their price for Azodyl was $53.00 obtainable by ordering it, on the net I could  have gotten it for $32.00 total ,with shipping and handling !
I was just looking into other options for a probiotic but am still stumped because I was actually looking for one that had a combo of digestive enzymes, insoluble, soluble fiber and probiotics so if anyone comes up with something like this and it is safe for pets, contains no dairy, let me know..

[opus88]

Donna, not sure such a product exists??...why don't you add your own Sol. and Insol fiber?to the food....safe amount of psyllium is 1/8 teas mixed with 2 tbsp. water. introduce slowly.
or pumpkin (cooked)can be canned but NOT pumpkin pie filling that is loaded with spices..get plain.
for soluable fiber cooked peas and mushrooms, a small amount of cooked celery can also be added, this has a mild directic effect.
probiotics are avail or live bacteria yogurt....another source are the capsules and a good product is Culturelle, it has more probiotic per capsule than a serving of yogurt, it is also dairy and gluten free.
www.iherb.com/culturelle-culturelle-probiotic-30-veggie-caps/7797?at=0

I haven't bought this product, but I have ordered several times from iherb and they are good to deal with, cheap shipping(even to Canada).Do you live in the US?

I don't know much about Cosequin other that there is sodium in the product and yes could be harsh on the kidneys.

[DonnaYav]

Thank you..
I have used Iherb many times but have recently been using Vitacost, they are sometimes cheaper..
Will look into a probiotic, I know they make one for cats with digestive enzymes and I will add the insoluble and insoluble fiber myself...
Yes I am in the US, in Illinois actually..

Have a good one

[DonnaYav]

I have located what appears to be a very good probiotic with digestive enzymes, it is called Sedona IFlora Healthy Pets.
I also found the Psyllium Husk in powder form by Source Naturals, great price of less than $5.00 through Vitacost..
Opus, if you will check these out for me and see what you think I would greatly appreciate your opinion and of course anyones also..

Found some really great information here on the web and would like to share about supplements that are helpful to our renal kitties...


Fish oil-Improves kidney filtration while reducing renal scarring .
Also in "human" studies omega 3 supplemention slows down the progression of kidney disease.(I still prefer the Icelandic Unscented Salmon oil in a pump)

Probiotics-supplementing with prebiotics and probiotic bacteria is effective in decreasing BUN & Creatine levels.it is believed to support the intestines ability to eliminate toxins and therefore putting less burden on the kidneys and producing less toxic build up..

digestive enzymes-As animals get older they can not produce enough digestive enzymes .
Cats with kidney disease have much difficulty with proteins. The appropriate digestive enzymes are helpful in breaking down the proteins for more efficient digestion and a reduced work load on the kidneys.Make sure you use a formula specifically designed to work with a pet's high protein diet....

FERMENTABLE FIBER-  Beneficial in renal failure disease. In kidney failure nitrogen containing waste (BUN) builds up in the pet's blood stream. Diets high in fermentable fiber seem to allow some of this waste to leave the body through the large intestine rather than the failing kidneys.

B vitamins-Pets with Kidney disease often suffer from poor appetite, weight loss & Anemia.B vitamins are often given as an appetite stimulant..


As we all know the kidneys are one organ that can not regenerate itself, so with our CRF kitties we need to make the work load on their kidneys as less taxing as possible.
Also I think the probiotics, fiber and fish oil would be beneficial for all our cats, not just cats with renal failure..


Have a great weekend..

[opus88]

Source Naturals is a good product, I don't think you can go far wrong in any source of psyllium husks (other than ones containing sugar)

Donna I'm not familiar with Sedona Iflora healthy pet....so I looked it up.
the label gives me a warning sign. the first ingredient is Fructooligosaccharide...and Donna thats artificial sugar, sugar of any kind is not good for cats....
Sometimes items put under 'for pets' isn't exactly good for them..only a selling point.
Usually as in pet foods they aren't regulated as high as those meant for humans.
Its usually(not always) best to stick with the human supplements.
From all I have been able to find as recommended is the Culturelle

Oh and thx for the interesting write up too.
If you are interested in supplementing wtih Vit B...use this one, research has shown it to be the safest and best combo...alway best to use the full B complex rather than B alone..
http://www.iherb.com/Thorne-Research-B-Complex-12-60-Veggie-Caps/18126?at=0

♥Opus

[DonnaYav]

I have been doing a little research on ingredients found in a few no grain quality cat foods(canned)..
Wellness no grain contains guar Gum , it is a polysaccharide. Saccharide, a compound of sugar with an organic base. Guar gum, naturally occurring hydrophilic polysaccharide derived from the seed of the guar gum plant, used as a thickener.

Evo, I have found in the chicken & Turkey no grain canned, Guar gum and Inulin.
Inulin, a polysaccharide, which is a fermentable fiber derived from chicory roots.

The Soulistic canned cat food in chicken , Xanthan gum, another polysaccharide used as a thickener, also used in many gluten free breads, pastas and flour based food products.

Fancy feast, all I have checked out contains Guar gum and some also contain locust gum

I guess we don't really know what is in the cat foods till we start investigating..

I am assuming these ingredients are "safe", but like with everything else, who knows ...

[opus88]

Apparently guar gum is used as a thickener...when so much water is added they need a thickener. and no its not a welcome ingredient but hard to find foods without it.

somewhere on this post or was it someone else that mentioned Trikki brand foods from Petco???
I was able to find out that Trikki doesn't contain guar gum. they use potato starch as a thickener.
And this food apparently meets 'human consumption certif. standards'

Haven't seen this food in Canada, but than again we don't have Petco here that I'm aware of?

[DonnaYav]

That was me that mentioned Tiki, it is made by petropics and Petco does not sell this one, I found it online and it appears to be a decent cat food. I am thinking about ordering the Chicken, and maybe perhaps a few of the salmon with chicken to give on rare occasions.

The Soulistic is the one she loves at Petco in Karma Chicken and Chicken with pumpkin.
The karma chicken and chicken with pumpkin also comes in the 3 oz size in a pouch...

[francoise_peace]

I'm going to read all this but before I must say my cat isn't having no PH problems !

She's deaf so I could put the PH paper under her without her noticing me : 6.2 (yellow-green).

So it's rather acid then alcalin. Cat's PH should be from 6 to 6.5, although if it's less or higher it doesn't necessarily means something is wrong because the cat's diet, the cat's food also influence PH.

An acid urine can mean less chloride. Although Happy Cat contains salt (Na-Cl) and they didn't answer me, she ate recentely a lot Renal K/D wet (wich contains Psyllium Husk wich I don't know if it's good or not for her chronic constipation, but wich doesn't contains salt Na-Cl, and this is good for her blood values). So that must mean her Sodium must be back to normal.

An acid urine can mean meat diet. She's not having meat diet because renal diet is low protein and Happy Cat contains vegetables wich should mean alkalin diet and alkalin urine. Perhaps it's because she is a little overweight, but I don't know if she lost weight with all those problems, that could have cause high protein. She's eating and asking less, but renal food is less tasty.

An acid urine can mean uric acid, cystine, and calcium oxalate crystals. That means Renalzin have kept her phosphorus level low because alkalin urine can mean struvite, calcium carbonate, calcium phosphate, ammonium biurate, and amorphous phosphate crystals. But on the other hand she is a little addict to the Renalzin + Probiotics mixture, although she doesn't like it, she screams before I give it to her, because she wants to sleep after her medicine. I hope this addiction is not serious.

http://cats.about.com/od/lowerurinarytractdisease/qt/catsurinpH.htm
http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/clerk/sine/index.php

Her blood levels are going to be controlled next Wednesday, I hope they got down.

***

About the chicken, I heard it was good when you're sick, and it's more safe than fish because fich can be a little poisoned from ocen water. But I also have read that cat food with real chicken slices have high sodium and high phosphate, so although Sheba did not answer me, but food that looks alike mention on their product: not advised for kidney cats.

" Please note: Almo Nature cat food is entirely natural. Every single flavour of Almo Nature wet food (tuna, chicken, salmon etc) contains its own proportions of vitamins, minerals (e.g. calcium, phosphorus) and taurine. Almo Nature therefore recommends a diet which is based on a variety of different natural foods (red meat, poultry, fish, dry and wet food). The varying nutrient contents of this variety will ensure a balanced diet for your cat. "

So it's good for them when they are young, but she is too old to eat strong real food like that.

I think stopping the Cosequin was also a very good idea because over 4months of use it can cause cancer (scientific survey on cosmetics with same ingredients than Cosequin) although they put no side effects.

On Renal K/D can it's written: " Recommended time for use: initially up to 6 months. " So if my cat is better, she'll have to change to Senior food. Maybe she'll go into Royal Canin dry again. To find a wet senior food it's going to be complicated. I'm glad she liked one renal wet food. I'll see what the vet have for her to try.

I'll know everything next week.

[francoise_peace]

Interesting. It contains more ingredients than Sheba Chicken and it says low phosphorus. http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/canfood.htm

Protein level is weird (recomm 28 - 43), Phosphorus looks real low (recomm 0,37 - 0,76), Fat is weird (18 - 37), Taurine is too low ( One of these VERY ESSENTIAL ingredients is taurine. http://www.felinecrf.com/managd.htm), and they don't speak about Sodium level. You'll have to add taurine if you use this food and check for the recommended level !

Soulistic Harvest Sunrise Chicken & Pumpkin Dinner Adult Canned Cat Food in Gravy
3 oz. - Harvest Sunrise Chicken & Pumpkin - Case of 12
SKU: 1229214
http://www.petco.com/product/110264/Soulistic-Adult-Canned-Cat-Food-in-Gravy.aspx?CoreCat=SBB

Crude Protein (min) 8.0%, Crude Fat (min) 1.1%, Crude Fiber (max) 0.5%, Moisture (max) 84%, Ash (max) 2.0%, Calcium (max) 0.25%, Phosphorus (max) 0.25%, Magnesium (max) 0.03%, Taurine (min) 0.05%.

[francoise_peace]

@DonnaYav:

About probiotics, let's compare Probiavi with iFlora Healthy Pets:

Probiavi Felin contains:

Pediococcus Acidophilus
Bifido lactis
Bifido Longdum (OK)
Lactobacillus Acidophillus (OK)
Streptococcus Thermophilus (OK)
S.Cervisiae (yeast)
FOS (Fructo oligo sacharide) (OK)
And a little dextrose (food grade)

iFlora Healthy Pets contains:

Short Chain Fructooligosacharide (OK)
(NutraFlora® scFOS®)............................................................859mg
Proprietary Enzyme Blend.................................102mg
Amylase, Amylase EC*, ß-Glucanase, Cellulase, Glucoamylase, Hemicellulase, Invertase Lactase, Malt Diastase, Lipase, Lipase EC*, Phytase, Bromelain, Papain, Protease 3.0, Protease 4.5 Protease 6.0, Protease 7.0 EC*
Proprietary Probiotic Blend.................................39mg
Lactobacillus acidophilus (OK)
Lactobacillus bulgaricus
Streptococcus thermophilus (OK)
Bifidobacterium bifidum
Bifidobacterium longum (OK)
*EC: Enteric coated.

I agree that sugar isn't good for cats but I think they add it for the taste. My probiotics have acid taste.

About quantity of Probiotics:
iFlora: Proprietary Probiotic Blend.................................39mg / 859+102+39 mg => 7.8%

Probiavi: 12 x 10^9 cfu/g (12 billions)

But the 859mg is some kind of sugar fiber:
NutraFlora® (scFOS®) prebiotic fiber
GTC Nutrition offers NutraFlora® short-chain fructooligosaccharides (scFOS®), a natural prebiotic fiber that is uniquely capable of providing nutrition solutions such as bone, immune and digestive health by improving the absorption of calcium, magnesium and soy isoflavones, and maintaining healthy immune response and digestive function. NutraFlora also provides many positive functional benefits including adding fiber, enriching flavors, improving moistness, lowering carbohydrate content, and increasing the shelf-life of products.

Prebiotic seems to be the food for probiotics:
http://www.dairyfoods.com/Articles/Article_Rotation/BNP_GUID_9-5-2006_A_10000000000000223520
Prebiotics such as NutraFlora short-chain fructooligosaccharides (scFOS) from GTC Nutrition nourish the growth of probiotics and contribute to health in a number of ways. The first way is through competitive exclusion. By providing a selective growth medium to the colon and nourishing probiotic bacteria, including Lactobacilli and Bifidobacteria, NutraFlora helps to crowd out less beneficial bacteria, which can otherwise overgrow and cause problems.  When comparing prebiotic fiber ingredients, glucose termination and short-chain length are extremely important considerations to the fermentation profile and ingredient functionality. The chemical structure and chain length of a prebiotic will determine how easily it can be utilized by probiotic bacteria. NutraFlora scFOS is a specific, defined mixture of glucose-terminated fructose chains with a maximum chain length of five units, and 95% pure active prebiotic.  It is derived from cane or beet sugar by a natural fermentation process and has more than 200 scientific studies supporting its health benefits.  

I think the article doesn't contains very much probiotics, but it looks OK for a cat, FOS isn't dangerous unless your cat has diabets. And FOS helps the good bacterias to stay alive in the medicine and in the body. I think it should be refrigerated, even though the probiotics will sure survive without refrigeration in that amount of FOS.

But I don't agree with the wet pet food choice as said on message before. I think it isn't nourishing enough. And if your cat looses weight, it could be not advised.

***** * ****

@Opus88: Thanks for the positive opinion about glucosamine HCL, but I think that what can harm the skin can harm inside the body. I don't think it's safe to use Cosequin more than the "Initial 4 to 6 Week Administration Period" (http://www.nutramaxpet.com/Products/Cosequin-Cats.aspx). So I'll say perhaps a 2months/year prescription would be safer. But I must say Cosequin had a true effect on my cat since she could lick herself backwards and jump higher with it. I can't be sure of the latence period before using it again, I propose 10months, but maybe wait less will be OK, but I can't guess.

Cosequin is good for cats. It has real effects. But overdose sure can start cancer.

[francoise_peace]

If you hesitate too much on probiotics, there is, as you said, Azodyl:
Enterococcus thermophilus (KB 19) - (Probiavi: Streptococcus thermophilus)
Lactobacilus acidophilus (KB 27) - also in Probiavi
Bifidobacterium longum (KB 31) -also in Probiavi
Psyllium husk -> In canned wet Hill's Renal k/d and in Purina wet and dry
http://www.vetoquinol.ca/en/index.asp?page=215

I'll have to order more Probiavi sooner, because even if I didn't finish it, it lasted a month. http://www.probiavi.com/english/probiavi_cats.htm

Probiavi + Psyllium Husk cat food + Renalzin = Azodyl + Renalzin + other probiotics - Enterococcus thermophilus + Streptococcus thermophilus.

I hope she can wait.

[DonnaYav]

As of right now I am giving EZ Wellness turkey, no grain and Soulistic.
She gets one can of the Wellness and one can of the Soulistic daily.
If Soulistic is in the smaller cans I give two Soulistic and one Wellness.

I have e-mailed Weruva, the manufacturers of Soulistic to inquire about the taurine levels, since it says "min" after the amount..
I have not been able to run across anything that states Chicken is used  only when a  cat is sick and many of the homemade Kidney diets use chicken.

Game meats, beef are high in Uric acid and that is why I have a tendency to stay clear of them.

I ordered Iflora pet healthy and psyillum husk and they should be arriving today.
In the meantime I have been giving her Pet Dophillus by Jarrow and Pet Sun Chlorella.

I also e-mailed Tiki several days ago but have not heard back from them, nor at this point expect a reply.

I also e-mailed Life Abundance Instinctive choice today to enquire about their canned products.

I have read that cat with renal failure should steer clear of any meats with animals  that have hoofs and to stay with animals that have feathers such as chicken, turkey, etc...

I am no expert, I try to give my cat what I feel is best for her, for her condition.
I am hoping to hear back from Weruva on the Soulistic, their products are human grade and ingredients "appear" good but I am also in question about the taurine and sodium levels in each can...

Have a great week...

[DonnaYav]

Well I heard from Weruva and the only reply was phosphorus .29% and Sodium .13%, nothing about the taurine, HMMM!

So, With giving wellness, taurine , minimum 0.10 %(one can) and the Soulistic 0.5% Min, (two small cans)should this be sufficient or not???

I have found that AAFCO recommendations on taurine are 0.2 for canned and 0.1 for dry.

Should I be supplementing some Taurine and if so how much ????Questions, questions, I am totally lost here.

[DonnaYav]

OOPS! I gave wrong info as I sent two emails and I thought the response was from Weruva but it was from Natural abundance Instinctive Choice...so, the .29 phosphorus and .13 Sodium is their small cans I am assuming..

[opus88]

it is so good that you question these manufactures for additional info, our cats health at times depend on it!
I can only add some insite to a few of your questions.
I will copy a few lines from my holistic book that I follow religiously.
"recent practice has shown that keeping phosphorous levels in check slows down the progression of kidney failure, meat protein is necessary to not exacerbate muscle wasting, however meat being higher in phos. for CRF its best to feed a diet meats lower in phos. such as chicken or turkey"
so you've made the wiser choice there.

Tauine "chicken contains less taurine than meat, taurine is an extremely important  amino acid and cats aren't very effective in producing taurine.they only get it in 2 ways from high quality meats OR supplementation"
"excessive taurine won't harm and its better to err on the supplementing extra"
they recommend adding 250mg daily....however thats for a homemade raw diet for a homemade cooked diet 500mg daily, its not known how much taurine is lost in the cooking process(wouldn't that than be similar to whats lost in the cooking and canning of commercial foods?)if there is 'some' taurine in the can food you are feeding you may want to cut this down slightly?

I do feed my one cat a homemade cooked diet due to his FLUTD and I do add 500mg daily to his food.
the other one of my cats is on can commercial food(so far) and I even add a dash of taurine to his food, since it will not harm and can only benefit.

the best suppliers of taurine for cats is as follows.
Carlson Labs powder
Now Foods powder (this is the one I use)
Source Naturals powder
LEF powder
Jarrow

I hope this has helped with some of your questions?

[DonnaYav]

Thanks Opus,
Since Ez is only on these two as of now perhaps I should look into supplementation.
How much I should supplement exactly  , a dash ?? Once daily ? A dash meaning a pinch, a 1/16 tsp? Sorry but I am not really knowledgeable about this..

[DonnaYav]

Received reply from Weruva on Soulistic canned cat food.

Very nice, informative reply..

Taurine 70 mg. per 3 oz. can

They do not add any salt, so sodium is naturally occurring in the ingredients..

If anyone is interested in Weruva products or the Soulistic and have any questions you can e-mail at ***@****
All their cat food is human grade and made in a human food factory..

[opus88]

well thats good you got a response and informative too, sounds like a quality co. doesn't it.
Donna, can't send out email addresses on the open forum...for privacy issues.
All that you see is the **** as you noticed.

The NOW FOODS brand of Taurine that I use is 1000mg per 1/4 teas....so I give Nemo 1/8 teas daily.(500mg).but like I said that is for a cooked homemade diet, so if the cans already have 70mg. you can add more, I won't suggest how much because I really don't have anymore info than what I copied. I assume as the book says its safe, but it may not hurt to do more research just to be absolutely sure the same holds true for a CRF cat, I'm always over cautious and I think you are the same.....IMO only 70mg is low.
sorry I can't be of more help.

[francoise_peace]

http://www.vetlord.org/taurine-is-essential-for-cats/
" For most cats, I find that 75-100 mg of taurine per day is about right, although for some cats, I have seen this number climb close to 300 mg per day. "

http://www.vetinfo.com/cat-taurine-requirements.html
" As a general guideline, an intake of 400 mg of taurine per kg of body weight is recommended for younger cats whereas for adult cats, an intake of 500 mg of taurine per kg of body weight is recommended. Studies suggest 75 to 100 mg of taurine per day should be supplied to the cat.  According to other studies, for every 2.2 pounds of food consumed, it’s recommended that cats consume 1000 mg of taurine. "

[DonnaYav]

ok,
well you can go to weruva's website and get their e-mail address.
Ez gets 2 of the 3 oz cans, equaling 140 mg, plus 1 5.5 ounce can of the wellness no grain, which I will need to find out exactly how much taurine is actually in their canned foods.

I did order a case of Life's abundance, Instinctive choice, I will only give her this one 1-2 times a week, it is in 3 oz cans, a little over a $1.00 a can, shipping and handling was $7.95
I figure one can or two a week won't hurt her as the phosphorus level is below amount of what is in prescription renal formulas and the sodium is only 12%..

Question, I still have some Cosequin here, do you think it would be ok to give EZ since she does have some arthritis ??

On the prebiotic FOS, from what I gather, it does not affect Blood glucose levels as it is not digested , not released in the bloodstream..

[opus88]

oh the cosaquin is a long subject.
short version from what I read is it contains glucosamin HCL(hydrocloride) not sulfate therefore it doesn't contain K(potassium) thats good.
It is a little higher in sodium from what I read than Natural Factors MSM formula, but how much higher I don't know???
perhaps you can check with them? from what I can read...(tons of reading)..this is the one most recommended.
http://www.iherb.com/Natural-Factors-MSM-Joint-Formula-180-Capsules/2653?at=0

since K and sodium are what you need to monitor for CRF cats you'd have to compare.

hope this is some help?

[francoise_peace]

I can't find the source (Reference 2 ?):
http://www.livestrong.com/article/58929-side-effects-glucosamine-hcl/

"Effects on the Kidneys

Glucosamine HCl is eliminated from the body through the kidneys. According to Drugs.com, glucosamine HCl can have a negative effect on the kidneys (see Reference 2). Glucosamine HCl causes the backup of urine in the kidneys in those with compromised kidney function. This can cause a condition termed acute interstitial nephritis, which can cause the kidneys to swell and become dysfunctional (see Reference 2). Therefore, always alert your doctor when taking glucosamine HCl or any other supplement, as it can interact with a medical condition that you may have."

The cosmetic database is either offline either hacked. Companies are stupid not to discuss about side effects, side effects is the heart of science, else the medicine is just a magical powder.

Good luck !

[francoise_peace]

I've ordered again the probiotics for my cat, because the smell have changed. I've ordered Probiavi again. I hope it's the good one.

There is another one interesting in the web: Complete Probiotics for Pets by Mercola
http://www.holisticpetinfo.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Complete_Probiotics_for_Pets

It has more probiotics variety:

Bifidobacterium lactis - 5 billion viable organisms per serving
A friendly bacteria often found in yogurt that is known to help stimulate immune responses.

Lactobacillus acidophilus - 5 billion viable organisms per serving
Guards the health of your pet’s entire digestive tract.

Bifidobacterium longum - 5 billion viable organisms per serving
Keeps your pet’s digestive system running smoothly, and helps enhance their immune system.

Bifidobacterium bifidum - 5 billion viable organisms per serving
Helps promote a healthy balance of flora in your pet’s intestine. What's more, this organism is especially helpful for enhancing immune response.

Lactobacillus casei - 5 billion viable organisms per serving
Works with other helpful organisms, and helps to encourage the growth of other "good" bacteria.

Lactobacillus plantarum - 5 billion viable organisms per serving
Helps to ensure that the nutrients in vitamins and supplements are getting to your pet’s cells.

Bifodobacterium breve - 5 billion viable organisms per serving

Streptococcus thermophilus - 5 billion viable organisms per serving

Sacchromyces boulardi - 5 billion viable organisms per serving
A beneficial yeast that is classified as a probiotic. In numerous clinical studies, this probiotic was found to significantly reduce the symptoms and frequency of acute diarrhea and diarrhea related to colitis, inflammatory bowel disease and irritable bowel syndrome as well as antiobiotic-associated diarrhea.

Bifidobacterium animalis - 5 billion viable organisms per serving
A unique bacteria that promotes optimal health and protection within the digestive tract.

E. faecium - 5 billion viable organisms per serving

Lactobacillus rhamnosus - 1 billion viable organisms per serving
Assists your pet’s elimination and occasional intestinal discomfort by working to stabilize their intestinal microflora.

Lactobacillus bulgaricus - 1 billion viable organisms per serving
Works with other Lactobacillus strains to provide your pet with a potential source of dietary antioxidants.

Lactobacillus sporogenes - 1 billion viable organisms per serving
Inhibits the growth of pathogenic microorganisms in the digestive tract and helps to restore balance.

[francoise_peace]

I'm going to learn you something, when your pet probiotics first arrive:
- smell them.
- taste them.

And also smell a rotten food with mold in it (like jam).

Then put in your memory good smell, bad smell, good taste.

Those 3 are very important. Each probiotic have different smell and taste according to bacterias in it. Then 28 days later, do the same test twice.

If you notice any difference: Test smell and taste evolution 24 hours later and 48 hours later. You'll see if the mold is in it or not. You cannot guess if it is mold at first test because probiotics fights mold and the smell is not like mold until mold wins. And you can't guess at all if it's mold by taste because unicellular beings stimulates a symbiosis reaction on your tong for it to stay on them like addiction, even when the good one are dying. You really need 2 tests to compare your feelings.

If in 48hours, mixed with the smell of good probiotics activity, wich can be acid, you see the air quality went heavier, you breath less good than 24 hours ago. It's because the bad ones are winning. Why? Because in rotten jam, or rotten food in a closed recipient, you almost cannot breath.

If in 48hours, mixed with the smell of good probiotics activity, wich can be acid, you detect the same smell source than in rotten jam (or rotten food in a closed recipient), it's because the probiotics are no more eatable for a cat.

If in 24hours taste went different (alkalin, metallic...), but in 48 hours taste went acid, then the acid is the poison. The acid is not the poison if probiotics were acid at the beginning but did not change taste. The acid that is not poisonous can be the lactic acid that probiotics do. I also presume that if it was acid at beginning, than become more and more acid it is not poison. But something that went during tong test from alkalin (candy taste) to acid is poisoned.

If air quality isn't heavy and if you do not detect at second test the rotten smell source (tong can also detect it but it's harder, it's just a point of extra-spicy), but you detect with your tong more acidity, an acidity that is not spicy, then the probiotics are just awakened and are working on producing whatever acid they produce. The production of acid is natural, and I presume it occurs sooner in probiotics that aren't refrigerated and that lives in a lot of sugar, their acidity must be climbing up logarithmically.

Any extra-spicy taste, wich is not an evidence, prooves poison.

Any acid acid taste only prooves bacterias are awakened. It doesn't prooves poison.

Cold is what maintains bacterias asleep.

That's my first experience with probiotics.

***************************************************
More about glucosamine:
http://ucdenver.edu/academics/colleges/pharmacy/Resources/CurrentStudents/ExperientialProgram/Documents/nutr_monographs/Monograph-glucosamine.pdf
Name
Glucosamine Sulfate or Glucosamine Hydrochloride

Scientific and Common Names1
The scientific name for glucosamine sulfate is 2-amino-2-deoxy-beta-D-glucopyranose. Common names include Amino Monosaccharide, Chitosamine, D-Glucosamine, G6S, Glucosamine, Glucosamine Sulphate, Glucose-6-phosphate, Glucose-6-phosphate, Glucose-6-sulphate, GS, Mono-Sulfated Saccharide, Sulfated Monosaccharide, and Sulfated Saccharide.

" There is also some concern that glucosamine may increase blood pressure due to preliminary evidence which suggests that glucosamine may increase insulin levels. Since hyperinsulinemia is often associated with elevated blood pressure, patients with hypertension, heart failure, renal insufficiency, peripheral vascular disease, or cardiovascular disease who wish to begin taking glucosamine should first speak with their physician to determine if glucosamine supplementation is indicated. "

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/patient-glucosamine.html

" In several human cases, abnormally high amounts of protein were found in the urine of patients receiving glucosamine/chondroitin products. The clinical meaning of this is unclear. Glucosamine is removed from the body mainly in the urine, and elimination of glucosamine from the body is delayed in people with reduced kidney function. Acute interstitial nephritis, a condition that causes the kidneys to become swollen and possibly dysfunctional, has been reported in a patient taking glucosamine. Increased blood levels of creatine phosphokinase may occur with glucosamine/chondroitin, which may be due to impurities in some products. This may alter certain laboratory tests measured by healthcare providers. "

So be carefull, perhaps 2 weeks of Cosequin, will be enough for pain relief.

[opus88]

thank you for all that info. and research. its always good to be an informed consumer and know exactly what the pros and cons are of everything we put into our bodies and also our cats...thx.

[DonnaYav]

Received e-mail from Tiki cat food, by petropics.

"I'm sorry to hear your cat has renal failure.Through our research we've foundthat alot of issues cats and dogs face are a result of malnutrition through various pet foods that cklaim they are healthy.
Our phosphorus levels range from .16-.49 for our cat flavors, so all flavors are perfectly fine for your kitty..DICALCIUM PHOSPHATE is part of our formulation and is a naturally occurring compound in nature in a crystalline form included in trace levels to meet AAFCO requirements. Again, perfectly safe for your kitty.
Furthermore, we have a "no Compromise Food Philosophy " that addresses Real Whole food ingredients, Human Consumable Quality, Impeccable Food Safety Standards, and environmental Responsibility. We use only human grade ingredients, we don't use any fillers, they are all low glycemic index, low magnesium, and low phosphate and have been approved not only for healthy adult maintenance , but also serious wellness diets for animals with CRF, Diabetes, Kidney and Liver Disease., etc.. We haven't come across one special diet we can't feed and vets across the country are beginning to get into holistic foods and treatments because of their experience with Tiki.

We are glad that there are many people like yourself who take the time to research and find a food that is not compromised..We will be adding recommended reading and articles to our website very soon. Please let me know if you have any more questions"

So there you go! Doesn't sound bad, although I would not feed EZ any of the fish but they have come out with chicken which would be more appropriate probably for her..

[francoise_peace]

http://www.petropics.com/Koolina.htm

Very nice cat food :)
Miam miam !!!

I changed my review about Psyllium Husk, it's only wednesday that I'll know if she's better or not.

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
*******************************************************************************
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Psyllium husk is a soluble fiber wich use is controversial, it has an effect on bowel movement and on bringing down BUN creatinine level but both effects lack of medical surveys. For digestive system, arguments for and against using it to cure constipation and diarrhea with bad side effects like inpassable stool. For kidney, as a prebiotics it helps good bacterias winning against bad toxic bacterias, so Azodyl (Vétokinol Ipakitin's) mixes it with probiotics like " Enterococcus thermophilus, Lactobacilus acidophilus, and Bifidobacterium longum " to low down urine toxin BUN in CRF. But those studies are still experimental. If you want to try blindly a future medicine that haven't been dicovered, try this equation: Canned food with psyllium husk (Hill's or Purina) + Probiotics with more then 10 billions CFU/g. But don't use the probiotics when your nose will detect mold after a month because the effect can be reverted. Azodyl had a good idea, my equation works for some lucky cats, but we don't know what work and what can be improved in the world of prebiotics + probiotics, because studies are too focused on chemicals. I think we need hydratation + chemicals + something in psyllium husk + something with some probiotics to cure CRF. It's really a futuristic thinking. (As chemical I propose a phosphate binder like Renalzin or Aluminium Hydroxide)
******************************************************************************
******************************************************************************
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

But my opinion of Renalzin is still: Watch the edema side effects !!!

[DonnaYav]

Opus suggested mixing two tablespoons of water in with the psyillium husk, if you are planning to use 1/8 teaspoon. I am starting out at 1/16 teaspoon, received the probiotic(Iflora healthy pet) and psyillium husk a couple days ago, bought the Natural source brand in powder.
So I am mixing 1 tablespoon water in the husk, mix up, the probiotic, I mix in with her food and I did taste it, no bad taste but I tried to sprinkle it over her food and she wouldn't eat it, so I mix it in her food now instead .
Waiting on the unscented salmon oil to arrive by "Iceland Pure" and also the Life's abundance Natural Instinct canned cat food. I will order some Tiki perhaps next month..

I am calling the vet to set up some labs for no later than the 18th.
Would have been nice if she had been on this regimen for a month to see if it had helped any of her kidney values or not.I think her last labs were in July perhaps.

Have a great day..

[opus88]

found this link on Medhelp, from dr. Osbourne DVM talking about CRF in dogs and cats...these are her views, a good read.

http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Holistic-Care-For-Pets/Chronic-Kidney-Failure/show/1260635?personal_page_id=473886#post_5968079

[DonnaYav]

my sister's 22 year old cat passed away today at home, rest in peace Guy..

[opus88]

Oh yes Bless you little Guy. He lived a long and no doubt well loved life and will forever be in the hearts of the ones that were so dear to him..
RIP Guy!

♥Opus

[francoise_peace]

:) My cat is cured !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(could be an unknown bacteria in the probiotics...)

[DonnaYav]

what symptoms was your cat having ?? and how did you conclude it may be an unknown bacteria in the probiotics?
If this is so, I think the manufacturers of the probiotic should be notified...

[DonnaYav]

out of curiosity , have you had a thyroid profile performed on your cat ?Usually it is included in a complete blood panel..

[francoise_peace]

e-mail sent to: Gaétan Simard ; Animal Health Bayer ; Admin (VetUK) ; contactbayer; Petmeds.co.uk (even if they'll consider it as spam, maybe someone will hear me :))

My cat is cured, so I want a specialist to help us discover the real cure for CRF. This have values of millions of cat lifes and millions of human lifes. The research you must begin values more than any amount of gold on Earth ! It'll be the scientific discover of the year ! So please someone help ! We need the Einstein of microbiology, cancerology and chemicals !

Mon chat est guéri, alors je souhaite qu'un spécialiste nous aide à découvrir la vraie thérapie pour l'insuffisance rénale chronique. Ceci vaut les millions de vies félines et humaines. La recherche que vous devez commencer vaut plus que tout l'or de la Terre ! Ce sera la découverte scientifique de l'année ! Alors s'il vous plaît quelqu'un peut-il nous aider !  On a besoin d'un Einstein de la microbiologie, de la cancérologie et des médicaments chimiques !

http://www.flickr.com/photos/waterreedshimmer/4970322673/

How did I cure my cat from chronic renal failure ?
Comment j'ai guéri mon chat de l'insuffisance rénale chronique (*chronique = qu'on ne peut pas guérir) ?

It was for sure the hole treatment idea. But nothing says if there was some extra bacterias in my cat probiotics that wasn't supposed to be there and that helped my cat to cure and be saved. And nothing says that inside the wet pet food psyllium husk there is a molecule or principle that helped good bacterias winning, because prebiotics are probiotics food. Furthermore Azodyl uses psyllium husk. And nothing says the Renalzin plus the probiotics doesn't create a new medicine more efficient and painless.

C'était certainement toute l'idée du traitement. Mais rien ne dit qu'il y avait des bactéries en plus dans mes probiotiques, qui n'étaient pas censées être là et qui ont soigné et sauvé mon chat. Et rien ne dit que dans le psyllium husk de la nourriture molle pour chats il y a une molécule ou un principe qui a aidé les bonnes bactéries à gagner, parce que les prébiotiques sont la nourriture des probiotiques. De plus Azodyl utilise aussi le psyllium husk. Et rien ne dit que le Rénalzin plus les probiotiques ne créent pas un nouveau médicament plus efficace et moins douloureux.

What I recommend you to do with your cat :
Ce que je vous conseille de donner à votre chat :

Some hours of sun bath in the morning, but not when it is too strong for vitamin D.
1 Unit morning Renalzin for reducing the phosphate (UK) mixed with one 8g spoon of Probiavi for natural defenses (Canada)
Renal wet food (Hill's or Purina) with psyllium husk inside.
Low mineralised water (in France it's Mont Rouscous, but it's written suitable for kidney on it) because it doesn't went through pipe.
½ Fortekor at night.
Cat renal dry food with high taurine like Happy Cat.
Stop Cosequin for a while beecause it contains glucosamine HCL.
Suggest water to the cat several times a day without forcing it.


Quelques heures de bains de soleil le matin, mais pas quand il est trop fort pour la vitamine D.
1 Unité de Rénalzin le matin pour réduire le phosphate (UK) mélangé à une cuillère de 8g de Probiavi pour les défenses naturelles.
Nourriture molle (Hill's ou Purina) avec du psyllium husk à l'intérieur.
De l'eau peu minéralisée (Mont Rouscous) parce qu'elle n'est pas passé par la tuyauterie.
½ Fortekor le soir.
De la nourriture rénale sèche pour chat avec un haut niveau de taurine comme Happy Cat.
Arrêter un peu le Cosequin parce qu'il contient du glucosamine HCL.
Suggérer à son chat de boire de l'eau plusieurs fois par jour sans le forcer.

2 main hypothesis:
2 hypothèses:

Probiavi + Psyllium Husk cat food + Renalzin = Azodyl + Renalzin + other probiotics - Enterococcus thermophilus + Streptococcus thermophilus.

Probiotics + Renalzin = less edemas in the stomach and bowel due to phosphate binder
Des probiotiques + Rénalzin = moins d'édèmes à l'estomac et dans les intestins dûs à la chélation du phosphate

4 consequent hypothesis:
4 hypothèses conséquente :

1) Presence of some unknown benefic bacterias in the probiotics ?
1) Présence d'une bactérie inconnue dans les probiotiques ?

2) Renalzin (chemical) + Probiotiques (bacterias) = new benefic real effects ?
2) Rénalzin (chemical) + Probiotiques (bacterias) = nouveaux effets bénéfiques ?

3) Interaction between prebiotics (psyllium husk, dextrose, yeast or FOS) and probiotics + active principle inside psyllium husk ?
3) Intéraction entre les prébiotiques  (psyllium husk, dextrose, levure ou FOS) et les probiotiques + un principe actif dans le psyllium husk ?

4) High concentration of probiotics (Probiavi added 10% more probiotics for the medicine to support travelling 7 day without refrigeration) ? ( >> 12x10^9 CFU/GR).
4) Haute concentration de probiotiques (Probiavi m'en avait rajouté 10% en plus pour que le médicament supporte le voyage de 7jours par envoi non réfrigéré) ? ( >> 12x10^9 CFU/GR).

* List of supposed bacterias in Probiavi felin probiotics / Liste des bactéries supposées dans les probiotiques Probiavi félin:
Pediococcus Acidophilus
Bifido lactis
Bifido Longdum
Lactobacillus Acidophillus  
Streptococcus Thermophilus
S.Cervisiae (eng. yeast/fr. levure)
FOS (Fructo oligo sacharide)  
And a little dextrose (food grade)

She took with her veterinary acceptance:
Elle a pris, avec l'autorisation de son vétérinaire :

1/2 Fortekor for reducing protein loss (US)
http://www.ah.novartis.com/products/en/fortekor_cat.shtml
1 Unit morning Renalzin for reducing the phosphate (UK) mixed with one 8g spoon of Probiavi for natural defenses (Canada)
http://www.renalzin.co.uk/
http://www.probiavi.com/
+
Renal dry (US and Germany) : she ate a lot Happy Cat dry but too few Science Hills K/D dry because Happy Cat have salt, and although it is not good for her, she prefered food with salt.
http://www.happycat.de/
http://www.hillspet.com/hillspet/utilities/selectLanguage.hjsp
Renal wet (US) : Renal K/D canned, she got used to it and finally prefered it to dry, although she ate a lot Happy Cat. But I insisted a lot with the canned. This is where the psyllium husk comes from.
http://www.hillspet.com/hillspet/utilities/selectLanguage.hjsp
Some Royal Canin Renal Special dry, when she didn't want Science Hills K/D dry.
http://www.royalcanin.com/
Low mineralised water for low sodium and low calcium diets (France)
http://www.mont-roucous.com/presentation.htm
The sun for vitamin D but not too much for not loosing hydratation
She only ate 1 wet Sheba Chicken (UK) in 2 months only because she prefers real slices in the wet and her phosphorus was still ok. But I didn't gave more because I discovered from alike food there could be high doses of sodium and phosphate in it.
http://www.sheba.com/landing/index.htm


I'm not a vet. But here are some of my not scientific opinions on medicine. We discuss between pet owners (Fr – UK – USA). (copy-pasted)
Je ne suis pas un vétérinaire. Mais voici quelques unes de mes opinions non scientifiques sur les médicaments. On discute entre possesseurs de chats malade (Fr – UK – USA). (copié-collé)
source:
http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Cats/How-to-reduce-elevated-creatinine-in-very-old-healthy-cat-/show/1273550

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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*******************************************************************************

etc.

[francoise_peace]

Symptoms: http://www.flickr.com/photos/waterreedshimmer/4970322673/

[francoise_peace]

Probiavi said they also think there is an unknow ingredient in their probiotics, but they don't know what ? Because they have several cases of " miracle " concerning kidney cancer. And all this is amazing and cannot be understood with our knowledge. What type of kidney disease does the unknown bacteria cures ?

It could also be due JUST the probiotics combination wich are ment for the cats and is alike Azodyl but stronger and without psyllium husk or the whole treatment that is maybe also used on other cats with CRF (phosphate binder are widely used among english people and psyllium husk can be found easely on kidney food) ?

I can't tell.

[francoise_peace]

And I also don't know of the side effects from this miracle, if considered as whole treatment. For now I'm without my probiotics and waiting for my new ones, because the vet said to go on treatment.

I just changed my cat food to senior.

[DonnaYav]

we do not have renalzin here in the U.S., main ingredients Lanthanum carbonate and kaolin with vitamin E.
There is human prescription of the Lanthanum carbonate but that's it.

Looks like all we have is Epakitin (calcium carbonate and chitosan) and aluminum  phosphate binders, sad.....

Also I have tried Purina K/D prescription canned renal formula but my cat will not eat it and I still am careful of any renal formulas that have corn products in them simply for the fact two years ago my cat's blood glucose levels were elevated but have been under control with a no grain, low carb canned food diet..

I am trying just the tiniest(less than a 1/16 tsp) amount of psyillium husk powder, mix it in enough water to make it form a gel and mix it in her food.
She is also getting the probiotic, unscented salmon oil and an 1/8 capsule of a very good b complex.

We have an appointment on the 28th for recheck on her kidney values and to check levels on calcium, phosphorus, potassium and sodium...

Have a great day

[francoise_peace]

Yes, here there was only Ipakitin/Epakitin too :)

I have choosen Renalzin because I can't give her Aluminium Hydroxyde (phosphate binder from UK).

And because Epakitin did not work on my two other cats.

You are right, do not give corn to your cat. I just said that because I understood why they have choosed that weird ingredient. They will not speak in a non ambigous way, but long ago several labs pet thought it was the psyllium husk that made BUN go down, but for real it is the bacteria that eats it. If your cat can't eat Purina or Hills it's not a problem.

It'll be interesting to ask if a probiotics that goes in the freezer can survive without FOS (some kind of natural sugar extract that a lot of websites says it's not dangerous for diabetes) or will it die after warming (like cryogenics problems) ?

http://vegetarian.lovetoknow.com/Super_Probiotics_Aids_Diabetes
"Super Probiotics Aids Diabetes Research

Diabetes is an autoimmune disease, meaning the body’s defenses become turncoat and attack the bodily organs instead of invading viruses and bacteria. Many people speculate that foods, such as super probiotics, can aid diabetes. Because probiotics appear to strengthen the immune system, the hypothesis is that they can help correct autoimmune diseases, including diabetes.

Unfortunately, much of this research comes from nutritional products manufacturers. Many of these manufacturers have a vested interested in proving that their pills, tablets and supplements work. Many studies, such as one cited in Natural News, do demonstrate improvement in the body’s immune system after taking probiotics, so the temptation is to extend speculation that probiotics can help diabetes, another autoimmune disease. But many more rigorous double-blind studies and other studies still need to be conducted to see whether or not probiotics can indeed help diabetics."

" probiotic, unscented salmon oil and an 1/8 capsule of a very good b complex "
I hope it'll help her.

I have also found this website that compare some probiotics:
http://www.naturs-way.com/pet/Compare_pet.htm
But this one seems more for respiratory system:
http://www.healthyfoodforpets.com/mseliquidrescuesupplement.html
And there is also that one that is GMP certified:
http://www.holisticpetinfo.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Complete_Probiotics_for_Pets

I had heard about probiotics with salmon oil, but I'm not seing them on Google today.

I hope she'll be better. 28th is long... I understand you are worried. I wasn't expecting mine to be that better, I was only expecting a slighter change. She is not eating much actually. And she did not like the dry Hill's food we bought at the vet because it is too big for her teeth. I don't know what was their idea of making such big crocroc. Speaking about Hill's, they also told me in a very ambigous way, and although they do not answer from french e-mails, that in the past they thought that psyllium husk could cure kidney disease, but I think it might rather be the bacteria that eats the psylium husk prebiotics. Anyway this psyllium husk attracts the X thing that can save your cat. So Science Hills gave me a positive feedback on my equation:

Probiavi + Psyllium Husk cat food + Renalzin = Azodyl + Renalzin + other probiotics - Enterococcus thermophilus + Streptococcus thermophilus.

And probiavi think there is also an X factor they don't know what, but they are happy if it's on their product.

So I have two e-mails suggesting the existence of some mutated bacteria or virus or whatever, one saying we did not say it and one saying it's cool to have such thing in our product that can cure CRF. And I still didn't ask Azodyl.

That's all I have.

Mine is not eating much because the new senior food from Science Hill's from vet is too big for her teeth. I also ordered at vet canned from them, but I don't know wich taste will come ? It's because family can pay food from vet. Now we have too much pet food for a cat life at home. And I'll look for a job, so that I'll be able to buy other senior pet foods she might like more. Past month I spent about 100euros in medicine + food from the net, that was no good for my economy, but saved my cat, and I am very happy.

[francoise_peace]

You can always make a special Renalzin request at Medic Animal (UK site), their price are low for this medicine and they accept making arrangements, if I were you, I'll order 150ml and replace it instead of Epakitin, that's the one that made my cat phosphorus go lower, but Renalzin is stronger than Epakitin because it works. So your cat must eat something. Renalzin was a human medicine Fosrenol, adapted to cats, and I had read surveys about Fosrenol, end-life patients human that were going to die of kidney, did die of other disease, they lasted 2years but they were already almost dead. That's how I new it had an effect.

And I mixed it with my probiotics, so if your probiotics doesn't contain chemical, and only contains bacterias (plus sugar), I highly recommend you to mix chemical Renalzin with bacterias probiotics. In my opinion it protects stomach and bowel from lanthanum carbonate edema side effects (that are proven on humans with Fosrenol) and it creates a very efficient medicine to lower both Phos + Urea levels. If your probiotics contains chemical additive, don't mix them, because it will not create the same medicine then for mine. Because molecules are more breakable than atoms and they can change configuration if they meet new chemical molecules, so you never mix 2 chemical things. OK ?

Furthermore with all the medication, my cat that was overweight lost about 1kg, so let her/him eat at her/his want without putting powder or anything your cat dislikes on the food. Show to your cat that his food is safe and give medicine separate from food unless he likes the medicine.

I really think that a strong phosphate binder is important. Bacterias will low Urea, phosphate binder will low Phosphate, if Urea and Phosphate gets lower, Creatinine will get lower, even if your cat looses weight.

http://www.medicanimal.com

We also ship throughout the rest of the world so if you would like us to ship outside of the countries listed in the table above, please contact us by email on ***@**** or by phone on [phone] for quotes on shipping to your location.

Customs regulations for goods shipped outside of EU
You may be subject to import duties, taxes, and/or customs fees which may be imposed by your local government when you receive your package. You are responsible for paying any additional charges for customs clearance. Rates vary by country and by what was ordered so we are not able to supply an estimated cost. Please contact your local post office or customs office to inquire about these charges.

To know where to buy Renalzin in USA, please phone Bayer USA and ask them:
Animal Health
North American Headquarters
PO Box 390
Shawnee Mission, KS 66201
800-255-6517

Furthermore you should also concentrate yourself on your cat's glucose, since you said it's high. Being diabetics (I don't know if high glucose means diabets because I'm not a vet) it's not good with the sugar additives in the probiotics. You'll have to search about what lower glucose. And cat food for diabetic cats recommended by veterinaries does exists:
- Integra Protect Diabetes (Germany)
http://www.zooplus.com/ask?query=diabetes
- Science Hills m/d dry and canned (USA)
http://www.hillspet.com/products/pd-feline-md-feline-weight-loss-low-carbohydrate-diabetic-dry.html

[DonnaYav]

The prebiotic FOS (fructoosaccharide), used in the probiotic  is a soluble , non-digestible carbohydrate that passes through the digestive tract basically UNALTERED.In the colon, this prebiotic is utilized by the beneficial bacteria for growth and proliferation .
Since it is not digested , it is perfectly safe for Diabetics..It also has been studied in "humans" to have benefits of actually lowering cholesterol levels (slightly) and studied in "humans" and animals with Diabetes and this prebiotic does not raise Blood Glucose levels..

My cat's Blood Glucose is not high, I think I posted "two years ago my cat's Blood Glucose levels were high but after putting her on a grain free low carb canned food her levels have been fine"..Sometimes just getting the animal off of dry food, losing some weight, if they are considered obese will be enough , sometimes not..
She was on a Diabetic prescription canned food from the vet, Purina D/M but easily tired of it so we went to a good quality canned food instead.

Problem is, with prescription diet for Diabetes, it was too high in Phosphorus, the Prescription diet for kidneys is too high in Carbohydrates ..

Thanks for the info , I look at the prescription diets from Hill's Science Diet, Purina, etc.. and I don't see good quality ingredients, yes they are low in Protein(that is a debatable subject whether it is good for them or not) , phosphorus and sodium, plus they probably add a bit more potassium and b vitamins, but I don't like the "by products" and the "corn" or grains they put in, that is just a cheap filler..
The Diabetic prescription diets are about the same, "by products", etc...a high quality no grain canned cat food will basically do the same as the Prescription Diabetic management canned foods...
I am NOT saying they are horrible but you would think they could skip the "by products" and cats do not need Grains, especially corn..

Phosphorus levels, my cat's level was not beginning to reach the stage of being high, last time we had it checked but who knows now so when we go on the 28th ,we will find out.
If it has gone up then I must decide which phosphorus binder to use..
I have been trying to feed her only canned foods that are equal and sometimes lower than the Prescription Kidney diet canned foods..

Thanks for the info, glad your kitty is doing well..

[francoise_peace]

Be cautious, because most vets think when phosphorus levels got high, it is almost impossible to get back. They prefer advising phosphate binder therapy before the phosphate gets high.

[francoise_peace]

She had turkey as canned mature from Science Hills. If only they could do at least 14+ and not 7+. She didn't throw herself on it, but she ate it in the morning with Renal Special from Royal Canin. I think she'll get used to it because there is 24 and finally, it is very small cans you cannot find online. Now Science Hills only sells for vets what they don't sell online, dry was a bad surprise only because it's for 7+ not for 14+, but wet was a good surprise.

About by-products, the only one I wouldn't trust is the beef ones, because of the crazy cow disease that even vegetarians that once tried meat got, and I'm vegetarian. So I don't trust crazy cow. But other by-products, I don't know.

[DonnaYav]

here are a few websites If you want to read  on bi-products and what goes into our pets food.

Decide for yourself....form your own opinion...

www.bornfreeusa.org- put in their search box on left "pet food"

www.naturalnews.com-same, put in "pet food "

www.hugsandstitches.com/petfood.htm, this one does get into depth and some may find this sickening...not for people with weak stomachs ..however, a very good read...

Have a great weekend

[opus88]

Makes me very ill! I haven't read these yet Donna however I have read others as well as tv documentaries about the pet food industry and lack of regulation.

Please start a New Post and again give out these websites and comments, not all our members are following this long thread on creatine levels. So if you start a new thread and label it 'pet foods' or similar it should attract attention.

thx enjoy your w/e too
♥Opus

[francoise_peace]

About my cat - I cannot understand blood levels - I know she is saved. But I don't know if for a while or for always. Vet said to continue treatment. Here I did a wait period, I'm waiting for her probiotics from Canada, they were sent on 4th September, and they still did not arrive. If they arrive next week, I'll have to continue treatment.

But the problem is I don't know if her Urea and her Phosphate gets too low, if she could fall sick of something else ?

I'm thinking about making a convalecense new post ?

[francoise_peace]

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Please, DonnaYav and Opus88, go to my new post if you want to get news from Minou:

> After being cured from Chronic Renal Failure - convalescence and related problems

http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Cats/After-being-cured-from-Chronic-Renal-Failure---convalescence-and-related-problems/show/1341949

I'll also answer if you post here, even if this post is a lot long :)

Good luck for your cats, they are the heart and the soul of their owner, and they all deserve the best we can do for them !

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[Robens]

Re Constipation. For my CRF Cat - if you have a human food product like Weeties or Weetbix. Sprinkle 1/2 tspn in food. And as for Fortekor or other tablets, ask your Vet for a few hyperdermic needles. (You won't need steel needle) The rest ***** up fluid well. (tablets mixed with little water & squashed petfood to remove taste). Inject into side of mouth slowly to avoid lung ingestion, little bits at time, with towel wrapped round front chest of Cat. Turkey variety has more platelet making capacity (Vit K) than chicken, & turkey was the only food my cat ate other than raw chickn sometimes, all with phosphorus binder Ipakitin. Unfortunately if you Google "Is Aluminium bad for cats, scientists say it DOES harm. I'm sure my cat was going a bit mad so I stopped. They should have a tip of a Multi B & Vit D also. And when heating Sub-Qs, be careful to only sit bag in hot water for short while (off the heat) as heating plastic too hot releases bad toxins.