3 year old with violent tendencies?

[adgal]

Hi all.  I recently witnessed what I consider to be some very disturbing behavior in a friends 3 year old daughter.  She just got a brand new baby brother (he is now 1 month old), so I know some jealousy would be normal. However, this seems to me to be a bit more then that.  Her mom (my friend) was holding the baby, nursing him, when the 3 year old came out brandishing a pair of scissors and well, trying to stab him.  She also asked when they could take him to the dump.  She has hit him on a number of occasions, although fortunately not hard enough to hurt him.  She has also starting kicking her dog and behaving abusively (both verbally and physically) towards her mother, and other children.  Now, I recognize some acting out would be normal with the arrival of a new sibling, however I think what is bothering me the most is her parents don't seem to feel this is a problem, nor do they discipline her or even attempt to correct her behavior.  I mean, they do tell her not to hit the baby, and take steps to protect the infant, but the other day she kicked her dog in full view of both her mother and I, and her mother didn't say a word!  I feel like I need to speak up, but am not certain what to do here.  Any input is very much appreciated.  I only have 1 child, so perhaps this is normal behavior?  I don't know, it was just very shocking to me.  Thanks in advance for any comments.

[adgal]

Thank you all for the excellent words of wisdom.  I do not feel close enough to the mom to have a "heart to heart", but do feel the need to intervene.  I will put some thought into how to best approach this, and will be keeping all of your thoughts in my head as I do so.  I have always felt that we all need to not be afraid to say something where the welfare of children (and animals for that matter) is concerned.  To witness what I did was indeed very disturbing and I do think there are some problems with that child that perhaps can be worked out with appropriate handling.  Now, how to do this.....

Thanks again, I truly appreciate all of your comments.

[Sarajmt]

You might send a "baby gift".  Include the book that specialmom mentioned and something for the older child.  If she is insulted, well, so be it.  She's going to be a lot more insulted in 10 years when the police show up at the door.

Your friend is probably exhausted from new baby and not quite sure how to handle all this.  She needs a hint.  I never had a child in daycare (except for a 2 weeks one summer to allow more socialization with others for my then 2 yr old.  It was a horrible experience.) But I can't imagine a daycare center putting up with this kind of behavior.  But I have heard some nightmare stories.  During my son's 2 week period, he was put in with older children and after being pushed off the top of the slide, that was my last straw.  I hate to think she'd learn that there.  

[specialmom]

Another really good thing to say to a child that can be effective is "you must have been really upset to do that.  What were you feeling?"  This sounds like you are giving them sympathy but in reality -------- you are helping them to think about their actions and giving them words to express themselves instead of using other means.  To use Ashelen's example of a boy on the couch eating (presumably watching tv) and her daughter toddles up and watches him.  Well, if he were to explain how he felt at that moment . . . you might learn that he was afraid she'd take his food (not reasonable for a 6 year old but it is for a 3 year old), or she was in his personal space and he was afraid he'd spill his food and he gets in trouble for that or she was semi blocking his view.  None are reasons to kick or try to move her but all are valid feelings he was having.  So learning why and then telling him what he could do instead is helpful.  And then building empathy by saying, when you use your foot on her it hurts her.  That kind of thing.

Don't know if that makes sense but kids think mainly of themselves-------- if you tie how they feel into things, they may listen better.  

Just my random thoughts in between lunch and the pool . . .

[Ashelen]

I agree (as usual) with specialmom...my nephew has some serious behavioral issues (for a number of reasons...mostly because he's never been disciplined)...and while I can't change their parenting, I certainly DON'T have to sit back and watch. When he does something mean and nasty, like one time he was sitting on the couch eating and my daughter toddled over (she was about 11 months old) to lean on the couch and watch him eat, and he lifted his foot to kick her in the face..his dad says in this calm, completely unconvincing voice "no" and when he didn't stop and pitched a fit because he was told "no" I stepped in, walked over, go down on my knees so that my face was where my daughter's face had been, and said "No. We do NOT kick people. kicking hurts, and we will get in big trouble if we try to hurt people on purpose." and he said "It doesn't hurt me" and I said "It hurts the person you kick. would you like *my daughter* to kick you in the face?" and he said No, and that was the end of that....but I've had to step in on sooo many occasions, and I don't care if I look pushy or butt-in-sky, I won't sit by and watch that kind of stuff...he, too, has kicked a dog when I was in the room and I immediately raised my voice and told him that if he kicked the dog again, his  mommy and daddy would NOT be happy with him. That way I was pushing the responsibility onto them to do something (peer pressure) but I wasn't letting it "slide" like they were.

A lot of his discipline problems ARE due to lack of attention, and he too has a new baby sibling...it makes me nervous, but not much I can do about it as a whole. good luck with your situation and I really hope that this poor girl gets some of the discipline that she NEEDS, because it's not just good for the sanity of the parents, BASIC discipline is absolutely necessary for normal growth and development. it's entirely possible that this woman feels overwhelmed and incapable of dealing with the problem, so she just sits back and lets it go assuming the girl will "grow out of it"...she may appreciate some candid conversation, like specialmom suggested. or it may backfire...but I'm like you, I would try SOMEthing.

[specialmom]

After that marathon post, one last thing.  This is as much an issue with the parents as the little girl.  This child sounds to me to be SCREAMING out for attention.  She is doing anything and everything to get the eye of her parents and she still has not succeeded.  She needs positive reinforcement to show her that doing the right thing gets mom's attention as much as the bad thing (which is also ignored.).  Beans in a jar for doing the right thing is a nice way to handle it at that age----------- and when she gets to so many beans, she can pick an activity of HER choosing that is all about her (and not the baby.)  Sometimes kids are products of their enviroment as well with rude talk and nasty tones.  Who in her life does she see talk that way?  Just a thought.  

[specialmom]

Okay.  I'm going to give you the same advice I would give a stranger.  You really have to be careful with this.  Your friend is the parent and while you feel strongly she should act to teach her daughter that this behavior of physical aggression is not okay, it will often backfire if you try to intervene.  I'm dead serious.  Friendships end over these things.  People tend to take things very personally when it comes to their children.  They see the behaviror too . . . they know it is there.  How do you think she will react to her friend telling her 1-------- she's not parenting correctly, 2---------- her daughter is not normal and has an issue and I could add a 3 and 4 that the mind jumps to when confronted about parenting and the bad behavior of one's child.  

While I know you want to help, you have to consider how this will feel to your friend. So, you have to think about how to approach it.  I''d recommend against a sit down heart to heart.  You say the wrong thing and I tell ya, a lady with a three year old and all the hormones of nursing a baby might just lose it.  

What I would do is when you are next with them and she does something like say, kick the dog . . . get up and walk over.  Say to the little girl, we don't kick our pet.  It hurts.  Say it in a nice voice.  Then say to your friend, why does she kick the dog?  All kind of natural like without "I need to talk to you about your daughter's budding sociopathic ways" anywhere in sight.  I would try to have normal dialogue with her about such things------  ask her about daycare and how her daughter is getting on there.  Ger HER to open up to you and then you can offer advice.  But if you sit her down to talk about this-------- she's gonna get mad.  My guess is she is hearing this at daycare as well and will be at the point of needing to address it herself soon.

I will tell you that at 3 as I was struggling with accepting what was going on with my son------- both a sister in law and a good friend said the wrong thing.  I'm not petty person and have really thick skin. I didn't have issues with physical aggression (thank goodness) but other issues.  Do you know that while I'm still friends with my friend and friendly with my sister in law---------- I've never once spoken to them again about my son's developmental delay?  They've brought it up and I change the subject.  I'm just not interested in a conversation with them as they left such a bad taste in my mouth during a vulnerable time.  


I just read your above post again and now realize that this friend does not live by you.  That makes my natural conversation harder, doesn't it?  I guess if you are willing to suffer the consequences of a friend that might take it the wrong way---------- you can call her and say you are a little concerned.   You are afraid for the dog and really her daughter that she feels it is okay to kick the dog.  Send her a book "hands are not for hitting".  Tell her a friend (ha-------- me) recommended it to you and it is great for little kids to help them learn that.  Also, my kids were close together---------- so when I nursed, I had a box of things that my older boy got to play with only when I was nursing.  I'd bring it out and he'd be excited.  I also would tell the baby--------- loudly and in an exagerated way-----------  baby, you have to wait as I am taking care of your brother now!!!  (baby could care less as he was half drunk from breast milk)  and that way when I had to tell my older boy he had to wait while I took care of his little brother, he knew he'd get his turn.  It made it seem fair.

Anyway, I don't know if that helps.  good luck

[adgal]

Thanks Sara.  I don't know what to do here.  This is not a close friend by any stretch of the imagination.  Our mothers are friends, and I only see her once a year or so when I am visiting my parents (they are in another part of the country, quite a ways a way).  As I witnessed this behavior my first thought was "this kid is a budding sociopath".  I would never allow my son to harm an animal or God forbid another child.  I feel the need to speak up somehow though, as she is only little and perhaps this can be corrected.  I am not certain if her behavior was overly aggressive before. It wasn't that I ever saw, but then again last time I saw her she was only about a year and a half old.  Her Grandmother (my mom's friend) seems to think she is learning this in daycare.  I just can't believe no one seems to be doing anything about it.  I also would never just allow my child to behave that way...I would be getting professional help.  I need to think through how to approach this I suppose....it's a difficult situation.  Thanks again for your comments, I appreciate it!

[Sarajmt]

Just one more thing.  I'm concerned about the lack of teaching correct behavior (in other words, discipline) by her parents.  If they don't do something now, think what it will be like in 10 years!  And her lack of any empathy with others.  She's a bit young to fully grasp the consequences of what she's doing and a bit young to be able to have a lot of empathy but even at her age, she should be able to feel some.  And she should be taught that as well.

Did she act like this before the baby or is this new behavior?  Have the parents ever corrected the child?  Just wondering.

[Sarajmt]

Absolutely not normal.  I've had 3 children.  And yes there was some resentment at first and #2 son had some reversion behavior.  But the parents not stepping in to stop this is very troubling.  

Perhaps you could suggest to the parents that they should buy her a "special dolly" for her to feed and care with mommy while mom cares for the baby.  I did this with mine before the birth of their next sibling and they cared for their dolls as I cared for the baby.  Actually they need to be told that this isn't normal but I don't know if you'd be interested in that.  Might not go well.  She probably needs a therapist to learn how to control herself a little better.

As far as the dog, she could do some damage.  What if she stabs the dog with the scissors?  If it doesn't stop, they should rehome the poor dog.

Anyway, this is my mommy advice. I'm certainly not a professional but have had 3 children.  I wouldn't have tolerated that behavior.  And her parents shouldn't either.  I do hope your son doesn't become influenced by this other child's behavior.

I'm sure someone else can give you much better advice.  I am not a professional nor did I have those problems with my children.