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8 year old temper tantrums
We have a 8 year old boy who, within the past 3 or so months has begun having extreme mood problems. Throwing things when he doesn't get his way. Refuses to do anything outside of the house. FOr example we wanted to go to Monster Trucks in a few weeks, but he refuses to go. If we do go, he will ahve his head down the entire time and will not even give it a chance. HE would rather play XBox etc than talk to anyone. If he doesn't do as well on a game as the adults do, he will throw the controller and say he is stupid and can't do anything. We have taken Xbox computers away from him, but the problem doesn't end. If he plays a board game with his sister (11) the same thing happens. We had a recent incident with one of the kids at school when the boy didn't stop throwing snowballs at him (even though my son never told him to stop) my son pushed the boy down to the ground. He said, I could tell he wouldn't stop if I asked him to...

He is an honours student at school (Straight A's on his last report card) very attenative etc there. I have talked to the teacher and she says he is a well adjusted respectful boy all the time. The flip side of this is that he will have extreme happy (to the point of being giddy) as well. I have only noticed this behaviour recently, but it has be concerned. Both my his dad and I try talking to him, trying to figure out what is going on, but all I get is the evil eye (when he is upset) or he completely ignores us if he is in a happy state. Any ideas here, we have tried just about every dicispline that we can think of.  HELP anyone have a similar sit.
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The things we mums worry about.  I also worry about those things too, plus I see him living a life at home with no job etc.  All we want is for them to be happy.  Don't get me wrong he is a beautiful boy and the times when he is happy are the best times and I guess we will appreciate those times more but you know what, we are not alone now and this site has made me feel human again.  Take care and write to you soon.
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Hi
I have just received the book by Susan Ashley and I have read it already!!  The thing is I am quite sad.  He certainly fits the criteria and in addition he has some of the 'extras' that children with ADD have like anxiety, compulsive behaviour and learning/processing difficulties etc.  In addition his poor social skills have led to him losing his friends in the road this week.  I'm not sure what happened but it has been increasingly obvious that his 'friends' have been teasing him about getting tired and having to have rests and have been taking great pleasure in winding him up until he starts crying.  The other night, and I don't know what he had done to deserve it, he says he said his friend's name wrong and was only copying the chasing game that they were playing when they all decided to be mean to him, 'skitting' him and telling him to go home crying to his mummy: which he did.  they have all deleted him as friends from the x box and play two doors down where he can see them.  To make matters worse, I went out with some rubbish and they were still being mean about him even though he wasn't there!  I didn't say anything at first but when I went out about half an hour later, they were all laughing and saying he was probably still under his quilt crying.  I told them they were mean making snidey comments about him and they were supposed to be his friends and that they knew he was ill (he has CF which I now believe may have come from his ADD).  They seem to have a higher set of rules from him than for themselves, they are less tolerant in short. They can  make fun of stuff and of each other but if he tries there is trouble.  Also, I know my boy has a propensity for trying to make people laugh by using the words bum, smelly, snotty etc..  without being with him 24 hours a day I just don't know how I can stop this.  I have tried to explain to him that as he gets older this behaviour will result in the loss of friends and now it has.  Now he has no friends! I wish we livbed on a desert island and t the only thing we had to worry about his where we catch the next fish.

Although the book has confirmed my worries it has not really helped.  We see his counsellor again in September so I will lend her the book.  I'm just so sad for him.  He is the love of my ife and his life is not happy.
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I have just spoken with my husband and he is going to take us all away for the weekend.  He thinks we all need a break!  I am going to take the book too and we are going to look at strategies like flash cards and rules etc because we are always scared of disciplining him because he self-disciplines by hurting himself and we never want to make it worse.  Thanks
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Hi, I just had the same thing for my boy who is the largest in the class, not the smallest.   I asked him to come to the shop with me just now, and then we would play table tennis in the park. He didn't want to come to the shop, (after a few hours on the computer), but I insisted.  After threats of taking PS away etc etc he finally came along.  Honestly 10 minutes of major ear bending like a whiny 3 year old and in the end I just told him to go back home, that it was way too boring to listen to.

After a quick discussion when I get home, I have now just had a lecture from him about how I am not a very good mother as I shouldn't have given in to him and I should have stood my ground and made him come all the way!!!  He like yours is really articulate, smart, pleasant 90% of the time and a right pain the rest. But unfortunately not that good at school, wants to do it his own way and not there's even if it is wrong. (Ahem, don't know where he gets that from!!)

We have read all the childcare books and had some help from outside too.  They said the same, nothing much wrong, some impulse control he will grow out of, perhaps we aren't strict enough.  Now he's got all the psycho babble to throw back at me as well as the tantrums!  I think I might just wack him, except he is nearly bigger than me and might hit me back!
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I have a 7 and 6 year old sons, who has no relationship with his father. My 7 year old constants picks on his younger brother., then they both fight. My 22 year old son gets frustrated with the whole scene and I am stuck in the middle. I have tried the taking DS and earning them only when they have done their chores. But my 7 year old refuses to do anything. Help I am at my wits end.
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Hey there,
I seem to have had the same issues to a tee as everyone else... 8 yr old boy, 2 other kids, great in school... Scary as all **** when he is home.

Most of us seem to have an xbox or ps3 or some other form of video game entertainment. I am a very watchful parent. And in watching my son play on these, I got the feeling they might be contributing to the issues.

So I took away the one game he always plays (Black-ops) which he can play/talk/interact with adults, who are rude, cuss if you mess up, call you stupid, or fat just to **** you off, one even told my son he was going to rape his mother, all because he was losing.  He threw a fit for about 2 hours then picked a different game.
He  has not played that game or any other game you can talk to others in, in about 3 weeks...And guess what...I have my son back,
no tantrums, no throwing  things, no screaming, no bickering with his brother, he is happy.
I really do think it is because he was playing with teenage/adult males in this game who don't seem to consider it wrong to belittle an 8 yr old...
Try it out for a week, just the main game, let him play the others and see what it does...

Goodluck everyone!!!
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376008 tn?1312484756
I agree with you that the way some of these games speak doesnt help.   I'm so very glad to hear that things have gotten better since you pulled the games from your son.    

I wish that I could pinpoint the cause with my son.  He usually plays on his DSi game which, as far as I know, doesnt talk back to you.  He has a Wii, but whether on the computer, DSi, or Wii games.  But my son isnt allowed to play anything rated over E10 for 10 year olds.  I'm absolutely appalled at the violence and language that they put on these games nowdays, especially ones that have superheros on them that only children would want to play, not teenagers.  I think that nowdays kids see so much violence between video games and TV, that they start to become de-sensitized to it.  I dont ever want him to feel like violence isnt a "big deal".  We treat each other with too much hate in this world.  I am by no means saying that all kids who play violent video games will become violent.  I think thats just silly.  But I think that the more children grow up thinking that it isnt a big deal, the more "acceptable" it becomes when they see it in other people. Before you know it, no one stands up for anyone else and everyone just walks away as if it is perfectly fine to see someone enflict physical damage to someone else.   So aside from some mild cartoon violence, he isn't getting it from the video games.   I hope so very much that you have found the cause early on for your son's behavior and have been able to stop it. I thinks that's wonderful!!!
If anyone else has found ways to explain/stop this behavior, please share it


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Hi.  I think games can be the source of some behavioual issues but like Natesmom616 my son does not play violent games.  I have read the book that was mentioned by sandman2 and he def has ADD without the hyperactivity.  I suggest that this should be first port of call if the problems have been for a long while and pre-date the x-box.  I think it is going to be invaluable to me now I have had a good read.
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189897 tn?1441130118
   Hi, sorry, I kind of lost track of this post - I'm not ignoring you.  you've got some good questions that will take a bit of time to answer.  I also want to re read a few of your posts.  So definitely will get back to you in probably 24 hours or less.
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189897 tn?1441130118
       Hi, I went back through all your posts and saw that you were from the UK - so ignore my last questions.
    Gonna start with some basic answers to your questions and then try and get more specific to your child (as I re read your posts).  I'll probably post to both sites as this may help some of the other people.
     You had a very good question, when you asked about rewards.  And I must admit, I loved your sons response when he said, "he is not bothered about rewards and can live without them and as he probably will get no stars anyway what's the point!"  That is a kid that is being really honest and also someone with pretty good intelligence.  And I have seen a number of kids just like him!
     That is why that after 37 or so years as a  teacher and principal and another 14 or so as a soccer coach - I have never been a big fan of rewards.  However, I am a huge fan of noticing success and immediately rewarding it via praise or whatever.  I firmly believe that you want to reward success immediately!  This means that you have to be watching, communicating, with the child.   Typically reward means a bribe to do something.  "find Moammar Gadhafi" and you get a million or so bucks.  But what if you don't want to find him or don't need the money?  Well, somebody may want the money, but the point is that its a bribe and sooner or later, the bride won't work and you have to up the reward.  
   Ashley suggests the use of rewards as a means of making the point system chart work.  All experts say how important it is for kids with AD/HD to "Clearly defined schedules and routines."  For a younger child a chart is an important tool.  By age 9 or 10, I'm not as sure that it is as important (depending on the severity of the ADHD) as things like reminders via post its, white boards, email, etc.  Point being that the use of rewards are a way to make the point system chart work and I think that he is past that age.  Plus, he pretty well told you that it won't work.
   Speaking of his statement.  Its a very sad statement, but common.  Unfortunately, he has been beat down enough (probably more through school), that he has begin to give up hope.  When he said, "he probably will get no stars anyway what's the point!"  That hits it perfectly!  I really think for him you have got to start rebuilding his confidence.  Ya, gotta start small.  His self confidence has been pretty well shattered and it needs to be rebuilt.  It won't happen overnight.  But it can happen.  But I am getting ahead of my self.
    You asked, "Is it too late to modify behaviour at 10 as a parent?  ie suddenly everything that was expected as a right becomes a reward?  It is not too late to modify their behavior.  In fact, I would much rather try and change the behavior of a 10 year old then a 6 year old.  Mainly because the 10 year old has more control over themselves.  Unfortunately, they also have more intelligence and years of manipulating you.   The second part of the question is tougher because, ya - what was a right is now not?  Normally (and I am getting ahead of myself here, but I don't want you to make any sudden decisions), I would say "its not a right".  However, in this case, it seems to be his only escape from a pretty nasty world.  I think he needs it.  It needs to be monitored.  I would definitely make it a point that he does at least one physical activity on the xbox before starting (not bowling) something that makes him move.  You may have to buy the pad for that.  I would also look into guitar hero if he doesn't already have that (buy headphones for him).  By the way, I mention guitar hero because it is instantaneous.  Games of strategy can cause kids to loose interest.  Even I can do guitar hero (on the very simple level).  So no!  don't make it a reward (yet).  
    You asked about changing behavior.  Yes! behavior can be changed.  It takes immediate, consistent, reinforcement for a period of at least 3 weeks to do so.  However! that is if it is a learned behavior.  A child with ADHD has behaviors that are not learned, but caused by their brain chemistry.   That list would include:    
* difficulty sustaining and paying attention to tasks at home or school;
* making careless errors, not following through with tasks or completing instructions;
* being easily distracted;
* look like they aren't listening;
* being easily bored;
* being forgetful, losing things;
* having difficulty organizing tasks, activities, or belongings;
* being fidgety, difficulty remaining seated;
* talking excessively;
* running or climbing about excessively when it is inappropriate to do so;
* having difficulty awaiting his/her turn in a game or activity;
* interrupting or intruding on others;
* avoiding or disliking doing things that take a lot of effort for a long time.

      And unless, the child is taking medication, these behaviors are very difficult to change.  Thus, all experts say to very carefully choose your fights.  There are some things that you need to ignore, must ignore because the child has not control over them.  These things can be changed if you take the time to roll play, reinforce the good behavior, and repeat, repeat, repeat.   But it has to become literally a part of the childs nature, and that is hard to do.  So you pick one behavior that he does appear to have control over and work on that.
    I recently found a very good site for parenting kids with adhd.  The site is ....
....  http://www.rxlist.com/tips_for_parenting_a_child_with_adhd/page3.htm
    I am pretty much in tune with what they have to say.  So far, I would say that the only thing they left out is that when doing the consequences - make sure you don't have too many of them.  You need to start with a very few things and then when those are conquered, you add new ones.
    That's about it for tonight.  I will now go back over your posts and try and make some specific recommendations.  Oh, and do reread chapters 8 and 9, particularly chapt. 9.  Best wishes!!!
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stop with the shots. mercury in all these vaccinations is one cause. the other is red 40 an artificial color in most non organic sweets. google it! these children are under intense mind control by our shadow gov. start researching everthing!!!
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189897 tn?1441130118
     Red dye is certainly a proven problem with some kids.  Saying to stop all shots is highly irresponsible!  The whole up roar over vaccinations has been proven to be false.  
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hi im having similar trouble with my 8 year old son been very angry for a bout a year now and has now got to the stage where i dread spending time with him which is awful! He screams and shouts at me and my husband and his two younger brothers. He constantly pushes, hits, punches and kicks everything and everyone in his way. Its so upsetting. I spoke to his teacher last year as he threatened to wrap a blanket round his neck to kill himself, The teacher said he is so well behaved at school no outbursts at all. A family liasion officier spoke to him and she was useless telling me the only problem he has was about playing football. He does not play on computer games so it cant be that that started it. Not sure what to do next do i take him to doctors or not? please any advice would be so helpful x
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My 8 yr old daughter sounds SO much like some of the kids you all have written about. She is wonderful in school and gets straight A's and is just so well behaved there. But at home or out in public at a restaurant, for example and she doesn't get her way, watch out! will throw things and cause major scenes. It's almost like she has to be in control of everything. It is very embarrassing and I don't know what to do anymore. She has been a handful since birth. I can only think of maybe one or two days in her whole life that she hasn't cried and threw a fit for some reason. My feeling is if she had ADHD, why would she be able to control it at school?
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Hello, we've been dealing with this exact same behavior with our daughter for several years. She's now 11 yrs old. The part about "holding it in at school" is not bizarre. Its actually quite common. Then when they get home, where they feel safe, they "let it all out". Mood swings, tantrums, frustration, extreme highs and lows, happiness or giddiness that is almost obnoxious, and then being sullen and angry...  these are the classic symptoms of child with bipolar disorder. Most doctors are reluctant to diagnose children this young, but they're finding that many children that were originally diagnosed with ADHD are being re-diagnosed as bipolar. So yes. Go to your pediatrician first because you'll most likely need a referral for the psychiatrist. If your pediatrician doesn't listen... Find another one who will!
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I am shocked no one has mentioned testosterone rages and for girls a mix of raging hormones. Boys start getting "testosterone blurts" around 7. Check the hair on your sons legs...has it grown, is it more corse.darkened? Think of how we are (ladies) before our periods. Most I know aren't fun to be around. Now mix that with being controlled by parents, teachers, maybe bullied at school ,never feeling good enough because kids today don't get to be kids and relax once in awhile. My son too has a few tantrums (which is why I came here) but giving him a safe place to "let it out" usually does it. If it turns into a rage then I remind him of the boundaries and call time out. Mostly the last things these kids want or need frankly is to be left alone in judgment with these huge overwhelming feelings. I am not of course talking about tourettes/asperger/etc. We the adults are supposed to show them how to do it....  handle the big feelings. And for those that spank??? well I guarantee there is NOTHING worse for a child's self esteem...and is lingers even if you are no longer spanking. The rage that comes from being hit when the whole entire reason the child is raging is usually to get attention or has leaked his rage from being hit (oh spanked if you need to somehow soften the action) Hitting is hitting ....you will only get fear and rage if you hit when a child is in need of guidance to learn to handle big feelings. Maybe because you can't handle his /her feelings you have to gain power by spanking??? I say you are the ones in need of therapy and meds...and fast before you ruin your childs life. No need to answer just do it... you know you are wrong. I won't be coming back to this board so don't bother trying to justify the unjustifiable or answer this post. The only out I can give you is you were obviously abused and are just passing it on...nice legacy...why don't you try something else you can actually be proud of.
The rest who might be interested in the fact that every child gets raging hormones around this age can investigate that since you are obviously open to helping not hitting a child in pain(rage is pain hidden if you don't get it hitters)
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To every single person that is feeling like your child might have something more medical in nature going on please please please take your child to a Lyme literate doctor.  My daughter had all of these symptoms(and more) and I am just so thankful that I knew enough to question the medical community that was diagnosing her all wrong.  We know she has Lyme Disease (and other co-infections) and we have seen all of the crazy behaviors that just don't make sense given who she is and how she is being raised.  (I say this knowing that there are many of you that truly have tried everything and really are good parents and still have a child with anxiety or rage issues.  We get it.)  Rage, anxiety and depression are probably of the more common symptoms of Lyme disease yet your regular  doctor will likely never figure it out and should you bring it up they will likely stop listening to you altogether.  That is why you need to seek out a "Lyme Literate doctor".  It has likely saved our daughters life.  

Try gathering information at www.underourskin.com (the site for a documentary about Lyme and why it doesn't get diagnosed.) or www.ILADS.com.  PS if your child also has an "auto immune" disease or even food allergies please know that this only makes the Lyme diagnosis more certain.  

I stumbled upon this site and decided to post because I know that many of you are going through what we have and I can only hope that this information helps someone.
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Many similar issues with my 8 y.o. boy - good behavior in school, short fuse and big tempertantrums at home. Erg. I am going to try the Omega-3 idea and maybe a child psyc.

One practical question for all of you. I agree that timeouts can help. Our main strategy is removing privaligages which works well except during tantrums when he does not seem to care. However, what do you do when a timeout is not possible. For example, we are late getting out the door for school, or (as happened this morning) he has just gotten up grumpy and if I give him a timeout he will likely fall back asleep. Any suggestions on putative strategies in these situations would be great.

Thank you all for your thoughtful and empathetic posts.
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I have a 7 year like this.  I noticed there was a problem 4 years ago. Getting other family members on the same page is a different story.  I have done so much research on these issues in the past years it is unbelievable.  unfortunetly these problems progress as time goes by.  Academically these children are highly intellegent, and become manipulative and persuasive.  Becareful that your child the straight A student does not start getting incompletes.  Timeouts start being a joke because they no longer care.  Positive reinforcement will become abused because if they are good one day out of 7 and you don't think this is acceptable well your child does.  Spankings will add to this childs aggression towards you and other children.  Other people will only tell you what you want to hear to spare your feelings and eventually stop coming to you events and even forbid their children to play with yours.  2 years ago they were capable of making friends soon other children will not want to play with them on their own.  your child that had such love for animals before will start being cruel to them when others are not looking.  They will start getting in your adult conversations and making their own opinions on things they have no idea what they are talking about.  If they are already saying the most horrible things to you wait until the few remain friends that you still have start getting those same comments.

Things to look into:  counseling for yourself, childs psych for your child,  conduct disorder, opposition defiance disorder, anger management, family history of this kind of behavior.  When you start getting 2 steps forward you can get 10 steps back for getting out of the rutine that you are about to establish.  God luck to everyone.

  
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I know this original post is old, but I thought I would add my two cents.  I just want to let everyone know that I was just like all of your kids.  I had all the issues you're listing here.  And I did exceptionally well in school.  

I am now 34.  I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder at age 28, and I was on mood stabilizers for a while (I stopped taking them when I started trying to have a child.  I am now 5 months pregnant.)  Now I think about my unborn baby, and I know now what my parents didn't:  that these symptoms manifest very early in life.  I know to be aware and watchful of these, and not do what my parents did.  Back in the early 80's, it wasn't understood that children could have mental disorders, especially as complex as bipolar disorder.  It was the worst in my teenage years and my early twenties.  During my depressive periods, I was brushed off by my parents for just being "dramatic".  They enjoyed my manic periods, because I was funny and entertaining.  It never occurred to them that I was anything but a normal kid/teenager/young adult.

I learned just how "off" I'd always been when I started taking the medication (the one that I eventually stayed with was Lamictal).  For the first time in my entire life, I felt normal, in control of my emotions.

I wish more was understood about manic depressive children when I was a child.  It might have saved me a lot of heartache (not the mention all the drugs I took in my youth.  I now understand that I was desperately attempting to self-medicate.)

I found this thread by doing a google search for my own behavior issues as a child.  I was astonished to see all of you describe me and my behavior to a T.  

So get your children to a psychiatrist!  Mood stabilizers are not like anti-depressants or anti-anxiety medications.  They don't alter your personality at all.  They're mild.  They just make it easier to regulate your emotions, and remain on an even keel.  They're the same things as anti-convulsants; medication they give to people with epilepsy, to control seizures.  My sister, who has epilepsy, has been on them since she was 3 years old.  

Anyway, just wanted to let you know what your children may be going through.  I hope I helped.

For the record, I have been with my husband for 8 years, have been working for the same company for 15.  I participate in a team sport, I have hobbies, I have a lot of friends.  I have a very stable life.  So it's not too serious, and they can become well-adjusted, happy adults.  Just try to get them the help they need.
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189897 tn?1441130118
    Very interesting post!  Thank you for the information.  Just being curious what drugs did they try on you when you were younger.  I am guessing they were either the ADHD meds which made you hyper or  the others which made you a zombie.  An ya, in the 80's they didn't have a clue.
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Sandman2, they never put me on any drugs, that was the problem.  They never took my behavior as a serious indicator that something could be wrong with me, they just assumed that I was a dramatic child.  It was hard to understand back then that children could be in large amounts of mental pain and anguish for no reason.  Depression and anxiety were "grown-up diseases."
I remember feeling crushing depression when I was only 10, and having suicidal thoughts, and locking myself in the bathroom, talking to myself to try to get myself out of it, and my mother thought I was just being dramatic again, looking for attention.  My parents had no idea.
When I became a teenager, the manic and the depressive episodes became way more intense, and that's when I started "self-medicating" with street drugs.  I was so smart, and had such good grades before I started doing drugs.  I would do any drugs I could get my hands on, at any time.  In high school it was hallucinogens and ecstasy, and after high school I developed a problem with meth.  I finally got clean of all drugs when I was about 20.  I realized that the drugs exacerbated my problems in the end.
It wasn't until I got into a healthy relationship (with my now husband) that I realized that I had a real problem and I had to seek treatment.  3 therapists and a series of trial and error mood stabilizers got me on the right track.
It's still a struggle, especially now that I'm off the medication because I'm pregnant.  But I always think of how closely I'm going to watch my child as she's growing, and to be aware of any of the signs that she's acting out because of inner turmoil.  Children aren't just dramatic for attention, they act out because they know that something is wrong with the way they're feeling, and they don't know how to express themselves.
So all of you parents on here whose children are acting in these confusing ways, please get your child to a psychiatrist for diagnosis.  And do watch out for the old, standard "ADD" or "ADHD" diagnoses.  The medication for those disorders would be the worst things for a child who is possibly bipolar.  (stimulants provoke manic episodes, just like anti-depressants, which will lead to eventual lows that will be so much more intense.)  
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my 7yr old he is bully at school um stessing a lot cause @  school they told me if he doesn't come right thy are going to expell him from school please help i need advice.
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973741 tn?1342346373
What things does the school have in place to deal with it zaza?  What things have been tried?  
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Hi - I am experiencing almost the exact same behavior with my 8 year old son.  I notice your post has been about a year ago.  Did this just turn out to be an 8 year old thing?  I am very interested in hearing if this a normal behavior.  Thanks!
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My 8 year old son is acting weird as well.He was born with a sliver spoon in his mouth and still eats from it.He is our only child and will be the only child.He is very withdrawn from everything around him.Example...We could be having a awesome time at building Lego's or playing some video game.He will get up and grab a drink or something and totally ignore me and not want to play anymore.I have tried to have him interact with other children his age around our neighborhood but he does not do well with that either.He says they are babies or that they are stupid.He is not a bully and he is not a mean hearted person.Our doctor thinks it is just age.I disagree !!! Does anyone have any suggestions ????
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973741 tn?1342346373
Are these social difficulties new?  
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189897 tn?1441130118
   How do his school teachers say he interacts with the kids at lunch time or during recess?
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What is Udo's DHA oil? I am so worried about my child. I think she might be bipolar. Got to try something besides drugs.
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4429622 tn?1354470250
- lastly, i am considering the possibility of bi-polar for my daughter.. although i am heavily against any medication and very much against this clinical labeling of children, i am open to this possibility, and offer this as something to look into for others.. reason is that my father was a severe bi-polar with psychosis.. i witnessed him exhibit every single trait to the extreme.. i have some traces of this myself, although it's moderate and i'm highly aware of my own ups & downs.. really, for me i'm just pretty much ecstatically happy more often than not and i have a love affair with life, coupled with short lived downturns.. if they could bottle up my brain chemistry & sell it, it'd be preferable to any anti-depressants out there ;) .. my daughter is ecstatically joyful & happy most of the time, coupled with (lately) these tantrums.. it is possible that my daughter may have inherited this, and it is a factor

- i mention bi-polar because it may help some get some peace of mind or some needed help, but i think more importantly we need to be able to see through these clinical labels, and challenge the paradigms set by society.. we need to believe in the inherent beauty, divinity & greatness of our children, and not buy into this ********.. our children are special & gifted, and it's up to us to find more & better ways to support & LOVE them (not control & devastate) and i really think medication should be the absolute last resort.. and spanking should never be resorted to under any circumstances

i'm also dropping a link to my personal blog for those who are interested - www.bigbeautifulbuddha.com
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4429622 tn?1354470250
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4429622 tn?1354470250
this is part 1 of my comment - above is part 2 - this whole post got messed up b/c it's too long, and i'm having strange issues with it

wow.. it's simultaneously disheartening and enlightening to see so many others having these challenges with their children.. my heart truly goes out to you all.. we are exhausted & also in shock with her behavior.. our 9 year old daughter perfectly fits most of the descriptions here.. however our parenting style and lifestyle we've provided for her is drastically different than the "norm" - so i'd like to offer a different viewpoint for everybody.. i don't necessarily have any answers as i'm seeking answers myself, but hope that my perspective sheds light for some

our sweet, beautiful angelic daughter has always been perfect in our eyes, and everybody loves her to death.. she has been given an immense amount of love, affection & support.. she is home-schooled and has been fortunate enough to spend virtually every day with mommy & daddy for the last 4 years, and every day with mommy since birth.. we've taken her out of the "system" due to the pressures to conform & psychological impact of the schooling system.. she is most definitely gifted, highly intelligent, creative beyond belief, has always easily engaged adults in conversations, and is absolutely joyful & full of light.. she is intuitive and as most others have mentioned, INCREDIBLY *sensitive* ...

for the first 5-6 or so years of her life it was smooth sailing with no issues or concerns.. it's been slowly building for the last probably 2 years and now it's almost a daily meltdown.. with the love she's been given, if this can happen to her/us, i feel it can happen to anyone, so you're definitely not alone!!!

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4429622 tn?1354470250
i also am seeing the *jekyll & hyde* comparison mentioned quite a bit & this is exactly what we're experiencing.. she goes into an unconscious state where she has absolutely no ability to reason, no control whatsoever over her emotions - uncontrollable crying, uncontrollable anger.. threats of consequences, taking away privileges etc. only enrage her more & she's immune to them in this "state".. she says nasty things to us such as "you're the worst mother ever", "i hate you" etc., that i can't even take seriously because i know it's not "her".. just the last few days she's been saying things like "i wish i was never born", "i hate myself", "i'm not beautiful", "i'm an embarassment", "i'm the worst daughter ever", and the most alarming thing she's said is "please god take me from this world back to where i came from".. she even starting speaking her own language during one incident that she calls "angelic".. she hits, kicks, and bites - she's even kicked me in the face

she has literally passed out and lost consciousness (scary stuff) - only to awaken and not even remember what happened.. when she acts like this, she is a different person, as if possessed.. once she snaps back she feels incredibly terrible & shameful.. she cries uncontrollably and feels terrible remorse for what she's done.. she has no control over it, and she's devastated when she realizes what she's done.. she tries her hardest to deflect blame & make it all our fault, but she eventually caves in and it's heartbreaking to see her breakdown, at this point she just wants to be cuddled and loved, and it's exactly what we do

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4429622 tn?1354470250
part 3

we've allowed her incredible freedom to be herself & express herself freely.. we chose this for her having reflected on mistakes we made with my wife's older kids who i'm the stepfather of - they are now adults and this is our 3rd child raising together.. now that we're having these increasing episodes we're wondering if it's backfiring & if we've done the wrong thing by giving her TOO MUCH freedom, spoiling her, always saying yes and choosing our battles.. but i feel better about that now seeing how so many others are having these challenges

so with all of that being said, i'd like to offer some opinions & perspective:

- first, it may benefit you to google "indigo children" ... there is a lot of information out there about this, and resources for parenting them.. it's passed off by critics, but for us it feels right, all things considered.. we feel our daughter is a very unique soul, and is here for a reason.. indigos are independent, strong-willed, highly intelligent & resistent to control

- the main issue here is in fact "control".. our daughter's meltdowns all start when she hears "no", when we she doesn't get what she wants - (same as you all have mentioned), or when we are forcibly demanding.. NO human being wants to be controlled! we all naturally want to be free, and it doesn't feel good to be told "NO".. from a philosophical standpoint i think all of our kids with these behaviors are simply telling us that they want to be free spirits & don't want to be controlled.. believe me, i believe firmly in consequences, and accountability in the best interest of the child's growth, but do not believe in an authoritarian approach of controlling our children
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4429622 tn?1354470250
Part 4

- this age range of 8-10 is a really tough transitional stage where they are shedding their early childhood comforts & securities and stepping into a new realm of having to be responsible for their actions & feelings.. in early childhood it's always playtime, and feel good time, and children are not expected to be held accountable.. they're now developing cognitive functions that allow them to see their faults and are facing a new challenge of being made aware of them & being asked to be more responsible for them.. i believe this is a main cause.. our daughter still ***** her thumb, still wants to cuddle and sleep with us every night.. she often will talk like a 4 year old and watch videos i took of her in her first 5 years to remember the joyful times when there was no scolding, no accountability, just pure happiness love & joy.. i believe it's our responsibility to be sensitive & aware of this difficult transition that they are facing

- if you really stop and think, we live in a pretty sh)tty world where we're indoctrinated into a school system, and enslaved as adults as cogs in a machine.. all of the discipline we're trying to instill, as well as the medical labels such as adhd etc. are all based on being able to survive and thrive in this sick world.. any condition that doesn't enable you to robotically fall into line and perform as a brick in the wall is labeled as a disease or ilness.. if you really think about it isn't it quite natural for a child who comes from joy & purity to rebel against this conformity? against this tarnishing of the soul?... all of us on this thread have intelligent kids and are made to believe something is "wrong" with them when it could very well be that this defiance and rebellion to being asked to "grow up" into THIS society is maybe what's "right" with them
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189897 tn?1441130118
    Ya, you may have hit the nail on the head in part 3 of your post.   Smart kids learn how to manipulate.  They don't really do it on purpose, its just a way to get what they want.  If they learn early that screaming gets them what they want - they just keep screaming.  And along the way, they don't learn how to self regulate.
   If you look through some of the more recent posts on temper tantrums, you will find that what your daughter is doing is pretty similar to other kids.  I tend to doubt that bipolar is the reason, but I would need to know more about her.
   I suggest you get the book  called "Raising Lions", by Joe Newman.  If you go to his web site and subscribe to his newsletter you can get $3.00 off the book.  The site is http://raisinglions.com/.    I think the methods he describe will really help you (no meds are involved).   Hope this helps.!
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4429622 tn?1354470250
in lieu of the trajedy that has made us all so sensitive to the sickness in this world:

dear sick world that suppresses our souls, institutionalizes us, programs us into machines for profit, causes us all so much suffering & pain, and as of late is now causing our kids to commit mass murders.. i would rather my precious, sensitive, divine angelic daughter pass & return to the realm of everlasting peace & love that she came from than to become infected by your pain & sickness.. as i now see so much clearer how we're all absorbing & playing out the conditioning, programming, and pain of the past.. we're operating from viruses passed onto us based on ideas of control, and we are inflicting pain on our kids.. we're "forcing" them to "grow up" into this world of pain.. we're causing them and ourselves so much pain & misery by enforcing discipline, enforcing bed times, telling them what they can & cannot eat, and robbing them of the very freedom they came here to experience.. we send them to miltary school to "break them down" and make them conform.. we as parents are in fear.. we've become victims of the fear based failed concepts passed down to us.. we fear that our kids will not "make it" in this world, we fear that they'll suffer, we fear that they won't be able to handle this "real" world so we train them.. we prepare them, we structure them, discipline them, give them consequences, instill fear & demand respect.. we rob their souls of it's natural authentic free flowing expression.. we shame them, we guilt them, we put expectations on them, and we shame them more when they fail.. we tell them to stop acting like babies.. we tell them to respect & honor us.. guess what? these kids know MORE THAN US.. they came to us from a realm of pure light, divine love, and freedom.. their souls are kicking & screaming, not because you told them NO, but because they KNOW what doesn't feel RIGHT

we're infected, we're perpetuating the cycles of suffering & guilt and shame, pain & blame.. we're using our kids to fulfill our own voids, our own brokenness and pain from the karma & programming instilled into us, from the loss our own souls

stop the madness.. break the cycle.. be the change.. evolve.. heal

www.bigbeautifulbuddha.com
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This is crazy the same thing has just happened to my son almost word for word in the past few months but he has now progressed to spitting in my face and as of last night urinated himself and then threw is wet clothes at me,He has also started leaving bruises and punching me in the head and face.I have just contacted his school and they have referred me to a child psychologist in the area,it seemed to stem from an incident where a teenage buoy shot him with a paintball gun and then he was bullied by 2 older boys who held him down and fed him grass.I have gone on for nearly 2 months now but can no longer cope as I am now afraid of my 8 year old son,I will let you know if this helps but I really feel for you as I truely understand.
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189897 tn?1441130118
   This sounds a lot like post traumatic stress as a result of the bullying.  The school needs to be much more involved.  They need to let your son know that he is safe.  They need to protect him!   ( I assume these things happened at school).  A child psychologist will help.  By the way, if this did happen at school, they also should be paying for the psyc.
  Hope your son gets better soon.
   You might want to consider buying some of Aldof Moser's books like "Don't pop your cork on Mondays".  And reading it with your child.
          http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Pop-Your-Cork-Mondays/dp/0933849184/ref=cm_cr_pr_sims_t
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We do spank!! doesn't phase the kid!!  I think you need to re-read some of the comments. The parents are saying they have spanked and that it really isn't working. There is something else wrong!!
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Hi everyone.  I have a 7 year old boy who is doing the same thing. He is such a smart kid, very social, does great in school. But when at home, if he does not get what he wants, a switch goes off in his head and he becomes unbearable. He punches, kicks, pinches,bites. It's really hard on the rest of the family. I just made an appointment with his Dr. as we need some help! I thought he would get better but he is getting worse. He now will act out like this in front of my in laws. Something he never would have done in the past. But like many others have said, he definitely can control when and where he will act out. Spanking does NOT work. I am so frustrated.
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Oh how I cringe when reading all the drugs we are cramming down our babies. I wish more people would listen to what you are saying!!! My 8 yr old is exactly like these others on this thread. I have had hair samples and saliva testing.... Tons of over the top toxins, heavy metals I. Body and food allergies. Our naturopath said 99% of behavior issues come from food allergies and toxin build up in body results in the irrational behavior , short circuiting so to speak in our children
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973741 tn?1342346373
My son's issues aren't food related.  I went the route of determining that.  my son has sensory integration disorder.  Looks a lot like add/adhd.  you do occupational therapy to treat this along with behavior modification.  Worked very well for my son who is now 9 and doing very well.  He's never needed medication but the answer wasn't so simple as changing his diet.  It did take a good amount of effort and work that my husband and I and my son (who had to do a lot of the things we asked of him) to conquer his challenges.  Every child is different though.  I imagine that most people are doing the best they can for their child.  Some may needlessly being medicated and I certainly wouldn't enter into that without a ton of knowledge and skepticism.  however, there are some kids that do better on medication and they themselves are significantly happier.  

the 99% number is inaccurate (proof?) and yes, what you'd expect from a naturopath (a group that does like to make a lot of promises and take a ton of money for them).  But agree that I'm sure some behavior issues are related to multiple things and aren't all just add/adhd.  My son is case in point.  

luck to all parents trying to help their children.  
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Wow, I did a Google Search for 8 year old tantrums and came upon this forum. Although I have not read all, I feel that I have read enough to know that I am not alone here. I have cried, yelled, whispered, practiced breathing (his magic square and my own therapy tool box) I have stood "seemingly unfazed by the behavior" I have rationalized, taken toys away, read books (together and apart) on and on and on, in less than a two year period.
I am a 36 year old Woman, who spent the majority of her "adulthood" in the Army. From 1997 to 2011 I was SSG Marr. Then after a third deployment, comes home broken in spirit and body. I was rescued by a stray dog's pups (My now three year old dog.) and a Young single Father.

I look back over the last two years and how I became WE. A strange concept because I do not have biological children, I have a Dog who is very much my child however he is becoming the best friend of a young boy who stole my heart.       AND THEN.....WHAM-MO

In the last 6 months I have exhausted every avenue I can think of and the Counselor we see constantly chuckles and has reading material for me because I always ask, "where is the manual". "What book do I need to read, how can I study for this test that is a child?"

Today I was reassured at his weekly counseling session when I learned that sometimes "in children it can get worse before it gets better", I laugh because we all have the potential to be like that.
This weeks lessons have been, why it is dangerous to Huck an air hockey puck, even though you didn't mean to hit anyone because you were only throwing the puck because you were frustrated at the game. but ended up hitting someone in the face ......sound familiar anyone?
Then after his father talks to him, he apologizes to me and for the next few days, hours, minutes, he clings to me telling me how much he loves me.
I really don't know. In my stations I know there are extenuating circumstances that any child may have difficulty adjusting to, however (the medic in me) says that if a child poses a risk to harm himself or someone else, we have a responsibility and in my case, coming into a ready made family, the only experience I have is being the oldest of 5. I'm flabbergasted and maybe old fashion.
If I can offer any encouragement! I am holding strong (with the help of a wonderful father/fiance) and a great support group within the family and within the team of counselors, therapist, psychiatrists and pediatricians. Our Son is a very well mannered, smart, witty, funny and sweet young boy. The "jeckle" that has come out in the last 6 months is frightening. I don't have an answer yet, only empathy, understanding, and a bond with people seeking the same answers.
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189897 tn?1441130118
    What a heartfelt post.  Thank you.   And, yes, most of the parents who have posted here really wished they had a manual telling them what to do.  This  topic has been off my radar for a while and I was amazed to see that I had been posting here for close to 4 years!  And in looking back over the many posts, not a lot has changed in those times.
    It sounds like you have a great support system.  Just in case they haven't thought of it - let me add one or two things.
    Many of the posts here are from parents whose kids have been driving them batty for several years and they are finally at the  breaking period.  If I read your post correctly, It sounds like this has been really only going on for about 6 months?  If you read some of the other posts on this forum, you will find that Specialmom and I talk a lot about "triggers".  The thing that sets off the child.  Usually if something has been going on with the child and it was not a problem or much of a problem a year earlier - then looking for that trigger is really important.
   Sometimes it is as simple as the mother is either expecting or a new born is now at the age where they need constant attention.  In other words the child is competing for attention and usually what he has found to be effective through trial and error.  Smart kids are very good at this.
   Sometimes it could be a medical problem.  Thyroid issues for example.  But usually it is more sleep related.  Enlarged tonsils or adenoids which cause lack of sleep and make the child really, really, really cranky.  I can think of several parents who had this checked out and it was the cause.  They had no idea that their child had this problem.
   The other thing is something like ADHDjor ADD.  You will notice several posts in this thread where that turned out to be what the problem was.  Granted I see more of this happening over on the ADHD forum where I am also the CL, but it does happen here to.
     Many times it is with a child who is not hyper and is intelligent.  They have been getting by in school with their basic intelligence, but are slowly losing ground.  The trouble is they know that something is not right.  The older they get, the more frustrated they get.  In fact, as a 5th grade teacher, the child's frustration was one of my best clues that something was going on.   The reason I mention this is that around 4th grade the child really begins to react to what this is doing to him.   I guess it was the throwing of the air hockey puck that made me think of this.  Kids do get mad (they need to be taught how to deal with anger too) and throw things.  Its just that kids with ADHD do a lot more things without taking the time to think about it.
    And, finally he may just be using his intelligence to kind of take control through a trial and error process of finding out what works for him.  If you haven't had it recommended to you.  One book we recommend a lot is
        Love and Logic by Fey and Cline.  It is a great system.
    So a few more things to think about (that you may have already thought about).  If you need more information about any of these things, please post.   Best wishes!!!!
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I am going through the same thing right now. Honor student, no issues at school... He has had two concussions in the past year, we moved from our home to an apartment and back to our home all within a six month span. He was in a new school for about a month before we moved back.
I kept thinking it was the very emotional summer we had, but the anger is getting more significant even now that our lives have stabilized.
I wish I had some words of wisdom or even things we have tried that seem to work, but I am in the same situation and would welcome any advice!
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189897 tn?1441130118
   The age of your child is significant in dealing with these problems.  So how old is he?  
    School can be very stressful for even a honor student if it is a new school or a new grade level.  So, what grade is he in?
    Two concussions is kind of unusual?  What sport is he involved in?
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I went through some of what you are describing with my son when I was younger.  It was a tough time and it seemed to me the problems got particularly bad about the time he turned eight.  There is no magic bullet or solution in my opinion.  Dealing with these issues as a single mother was particularly stressful.

What does work is a lot of structure and pre-set consequences for these kids.  When they aren't in school, you should try to enroll them in activities that consume energy.  Baseball for boys in the Spring.  Basketball for boys in the winter.  If these sports don't appeal to them, consider martial arts.  I would take a good look at diet.  Are too many foods with sugar or carbohydrates being served at meals?  Are the kids allowed to play outside enough and burn off energy?  Counseling and medication are reasonable options in extreme situations.  However, I would exhaust other avenues first.

With my son, I felt the fact that there were pre-set consequences (that meant something) was very important.  In his case, I felt spankings were useful.  It was something he wanted to avoid and once he knew that was on the table, he did alter his behavior.  Spankings were a big deal in our house.  When he got one, he would get a lecture why he was receiving it and than I would pull down his pants and make him bend over my knee in his underwear. He would get enough swats that there would be some tears. I used my hand most of the time, but I do admit I used a belt once when he put himself in serious danger.

Its all part of a process and some kids are just more difficult to raise than others.  All of you who are going through this have my sympathy.  I hope I have been of some help.
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Hi, I am thankful to fall upon such an amazing post! My son just turned 7. He is such an amazing boy. He loves to play outside with his friends, watching YouTube is his thing. He is not too interested in the old Xbox we have anymore. Occasionally he likes cartoons. One thing he does love is his mama! He is a mamas boy all day. I have a 9 year old daughter as well. I would say I am a good mom. I take time at the end of the night to talk to my kids. Ask them how are they feeling or talking about their behavior and what I expect. I answer random questions. I try to make a point after school to do something with them whether it's go to the beach or do a project. But once school ends everything begins. My son will get annoyed with his sister and then it escalated to hitting, punching, kicking, throwing things. He gets spurts of hyperness/fidgets.  When my son hears NO he immediately starts to bang his head and throw things and yell and try to manipulate the conversation. When outside with his friends I notice that he doesn't get along with girls so much. He will throw sticks or hurt them. He will yell at me when I am reprimanding him for something. He will say I just want to die right now. Homework is the devil. Something that could take 5 minutes will take an hour of fighting and whining when can I be done. If I am correcting him he will throw a tantrum. In the store or at a restaurant he will throw a tantrum. He has broken many things due to throwing them. He has hit and kicked me. Called me names and lastly says I will just kill myself then. The last time I found him in the bathroom with a shoe string around his neck. Finally I have made a counseling appointment.

    My 9 year old is very sassy and she mimics some of the same behavior as far as hitting kicking tattling and concentration issues (I think she has ADD) but she is bright and funny. Loud and a social butterfly. In the past 3 years we have been through hell. 3 moves. Both of my parents died. We lived over seas for 3 years. My husband just deployed 2 months ago and this is when the worst of his attitude and anger comes out. I'm not sure if it's just more emotional then adhd but I am at my whits end and doing something to help the situation. I just want other parents who are going through a lot to know you are not alone and there are plenty of people on the same boat. As I start the process of seeing how to help my son I will continue to keep updates. Also someone posted about Lyme disease and now I will be getting tested as o have "fibromyalgia". So thank you so very much!
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