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Avatar universal

Disrespectful 9 year old

I have two children, (a nine year old boy and a 3 year old girl). My children have 2 different dad's and my son's dad died when my son was 1 1/2. My daughter's dad and I split up last July. He stepped up and assumed the role of dad to my 9 year old. Since about Septemeber/October he has almost completely backed out of my son's life and rarely talks to him. My 9 year old has been suspended from school 7 times this year. He has the potential to be a great kid, but he has developed a sense of not having to listen to any authority figure. He feels like he can do whatever he wants whenever he wants and the consequences don't matter too much to him. He has an uncle with a 3 page rap sheet that he seems to idolize and I try to keep him away from that uncle. His grandma on his real dad's side of the family lets him get away with everything and his punishment while he is with her is being sent home. I have tried counseling and every punishment I could think of. I even went so far as to buy the Total Transformation Program which seems to work occasionally. I can't enforce my rules when he is with his grandparents while I am at work. I have told them what to do when he gets in trouble, but they don't follow through and then tell me that I have to do something with him because he won't listen to them either. I am at my wits end and looking for some advice on what else I could possibly try to straighten him out. It's pointless trying to talk to his step-dad because he won't listen to me and doesn't realize how much he has hurt my son. I don't think my son fully understands why he is feeling the way he is either, but he's basically been abandoned by the only dad he really knew. If anyone knows of anything I could possibly try to maybe help him understand his feelings and a better way of handling them and start listening.
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973741 tn?1342342773
Oh, and I have a new series of books to recommend reading with kids.  I don't think the series is new but I just found it!  A six year old boy will like these.  They are by Adolph Moser who is a psychologist that runs a holistic based youth center for kids with challenges.  Here are some of the titles-----------"Don't Pop Your Cork On Monday" and "Don't Rant and Rave on Wednesday" and "Don't Feed the Monster on Tuesday" and "Don't Despair on Wednesday" and "Don't tell a Whopper on Thursday" and "Don't Fall Apart on Friday" and "Don't be a menace on Sundays".  These are part of his emotional impact series and are written well with good illustrations.  I got them at the library-----------  worth checking into!
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973741 tn?1342342773
I agree with Sandman.  The nervous system can have so much great input in the summer and that is a good time to work on the things that caused issue the previous year.  

When I say nervous system input-----------  I am referring to the "heavy work" they talk about in sensory.  I keep bringing that up because kids with add/adhd and odd really benefit from this same kind of thing.  Calming the nervous system is going to help kids with any of these issues and heck, really---------- any kid.  

In the summer, we spend massive amounts of time outside------------  we swim every day, bike and scooter ride, play at parks, go hiking, jump on trampolines, run races and sprints, etc.  As much as you can fit into your day is great because it will calm your child overall.  

We work on things such as behavioral aspects we are trying to either eliminate or encourage.  My kids have extra jobs in the summer---------  not to make them work but to give them things to accomplish and make them feel good about themselves.  And we always work on our social skills---------- consider those camps.

And I read anything and everything on all disorders of children.  My son, for example, does not have autism.  But we used 'social stories' to help with a few issues we were having.  I learned about them from a web site on autism and in reading about autism.  So you take things from anywhere you can and try them when you have an outside of the box kid.  

Good luck and let's hope for a good summer and school year next year!!
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189897 tn?1441126518
COMMUNITY LEADER
   Ok, I understand where the doctor is coming from.  A child has to show problems at both school and home to be diagnosed with ADHD or ADD.  The problem is that a new teacher will not have the same insights as last years teacher, so make sure that his teacher last year also takes the survey.   Just being curious what kind of a doctor are you seeing?  I find it kind of frighting that all he said was it may be ODD, and he didn't give you any other help except to say, we'll test next year?    There are things you could be doing over the summer and he didn't take the time to help you?
   And yes, he may very well have ODD, but approximately 33% of kids with ADHD have ODD (from Ashleys book, p. 55).  Its cool that the doctor and you thinks he has ODD.  But only 2 to 16% of kids have just ODD.  If the child has ADHD, it goes to about 33%.  The point is that ADHD can cause or contribute to ODD.
    I am sorry that this whole post got sidetracked by us and bbxx and the drug thing, especially when none of us ever suggested that meds be used.  The point is that IF he has ADHD there is a lot that can be done without meds.  Once again, I seriously recommend that you buy the book,   "The ADD/ ADHD Answer book," by Susan Ashley.   It has a great section on ODD. But it also has a ton of stuff that will also help you now and in the future.  I gave several other sources in my posts to bbxx, but they are pretty technical.  If you get bored, you might want to check them out.  But I can also give you others that are aimed at parents just starting to deal with this kind of situation.  
    I do live in California and am very familiar with the special education laws due to being both a teacher and elementary school principal.  If you have any questions, please post.  And I also monitor all the posts on the ADHD forum if you have any specific questions.
     Specialmoms suggestions are always worth looking into.
     And the age thing could be part of the problem.
     I do think the teacher this year was a big part of the problem.  Do try and meet the principal and get a more appropriate teacher for next year.  But, you gotta do it now.  The principal will hang around for about a week or so, and then reappear about two weeks before school starts.  Any changes in schedule to be made are a lot easier to be done before school starts.
    I guess  what I am kind of trying to say is don't let this summer go by continuing to do the same old thing.  Best wishes!
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973741 tn?1342342773
Oh, and I also wanted to mention that I'd look for what they call "social groups" for him.  Many occupational therapy offices, children hospitals, and child centers run them in the summer.  It puts small groups of kids together and works directly on social skills with peers (which, of course, carries over to all others).  We've done one and may do another at the end of the summer.  Also, psychologists also sometimes will have a group-------  so when you start working on finding your therapist, you can ask about this too.  It is helpful for issues that your son has.  good luck
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973741 tn?1342342773
Well, it probably feels better to have a direction to go in, right?  Look up sensory on the web site I gave above too.  I think that sometimes a child is defiant as a coping mechanism for other things and sensory also includes a part of the nervous system called "regulation" or "modulation"---------- this involves the emotions.  My son's reactions to things can be quite emotional and once upset, hard to calm himself back down.  He also does not quite get 'tone' or voice volume-------- we work on that and it has gotten better.  But you can see if those things are out of whack, it would appear he is rudely yelling at someone.  With gentle reminders, my son will quickly rephrase and works on HOW he says things.  He needs fewer and fewer reminders as time goes on. But when he is already upset or over excited, that would be when this problem is the worse.  

Anyway, good luck and let us know what the therapist says.  
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Avatar universal
So just a little update on my son. I took him to the doctor, but the doctor said that we can't test him for ADD/ADHD since school is out now, but he said it sounds to him like my son has ODD, which is what I had thought when I first wondered about ADD and got the paperwork. Everything that I read on that paper that discussed ODD was my son to a T except for like one or two things. The doctor said that there is no medication for ODD, but I need to get him into couseling considering a lot has happened within this last year, but if I still want him tested for ADD then I will have to wait until school starts up again.
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189897 tn?1441126518
COMMUNITY LEADER
   I specifically tried to find for you research from what should be non-biased groups.  I am pretty sure that the Arizona supreme court would be a fairly non-biased group.  I suppose the the University of Arizona could have some bias based on which professors wrote the material.  However, each group provided extensive citations.   I guess if you don't believe these groups, who do you believe - I would love to see what you have.  If your believes are experienced based, I can understand that.  I have seen many posts on the ADHD forum that are experienced based and personal experience is very important because all people have different experiences - both good and bad.  The sharing of that information can be useful, if done with enough background to know that it is not  a generalization.
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973741 tn?1342342773
And yes, this was only one post.  No big deal and I'm sure we'll find thoughts in common down the road.
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973741 tn?1342342773
I like many people here at med help whether we agree on things or not.  I was just giving kudos where kudos are due.  
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Avatar universal
Well it sounds like you have a lot of respect for sandman. Its always great when we find someone who thinks the way we do on things. :)

Ps, I dont know sandman or you. I just disagreed with you on one post. Not a big a deal. We may be in complete agreement on the next. :)
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973741 tn?1342342773
What I love about Sandman and why I find his posts so valuable is because they are well rounded with concrete things meant to help posters and their families.   He has great ideas of actually what a family CAN do to help.  Ideas on many levels with not one single agenda that he speaks of.  I love those without an agenda that take each post individually and really put thought into what they have to offer.  Several here at med help do that and I really want to thank them.  I know, for example, that Margypops is antimedication but does not just post that.  Instead, she also offers other ideas for a family.  I think that is great and appreciate it.

I've been on the side of as a mother trying to figure out what is going on with my child.  It can be difficult and having good ideas from other knowledgable people as to what you can do is really comforting.

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Avatar universal
So far not seeing the proof.
There are organizations also in opposition to the psychiatric industry and pharma. I trust them. I have my own reasons why.  I have my experiences and you have yours.
I guess we will just agree have to disagree. Its ok.
No hard feelings. :)
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189897 tn?1441126518
COMMUNITY LEADER
   Two fairly complete references.  The first by the Arizona Supreme court
http://www.supreme.state.az.us/casa/prepare/adhd.html   -  also check out their section on Pharmacological Treatments.
    The second is from the University of Arizona and is one of the more complete reports I have seen - almost too much info  -  
         http://www.healing-arts.org/children/ADHD/#Neurobiological  -  See the section on  Neurobiological Theories: Pathophysiological Views   and more specific info here  http://www.healing-arts.org/children/ADHD/mri-imaging.htm
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Avatar universal
Ugh, you are relentless. lol Please pm me with link to prove that they can measure the chemical imbalances in the brain, and how they measure it.  I would love to see this research.
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973741 tn?1342342773
I'm bowing out too but . . . the brain chemistry connection was proven long ago.  Sorry but I had to . . .
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Avatar universal
I just got your message. lol It seems we are playing message tag.
I will bow out of this conversation, I have said all I wanted to.
I have no hard feelings towards you or anyone for that matter.
Based on my experience and research I have my own opinions, and based on your experience you have your opinons. Its ok for us to not agree and I dont mind you having the last word. lol
Anyway---you dont know me, nor I you, but as a fellow human being, I mean no disrespect. :)
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Avatar universal

The whole issue of brain chemical imbalance is not able to be proven.
I have had meetings with psychiatrists about this very thing, and THEY will admit that. They can not prove it.
There are psychiatrists out there in their own words admitting to the fact we really do NOT know what will happen to all these kids down the road. There are those admitting that no one can be certain how a brain altering medication will affect their child.
There are children placed on these drugs, only to start displaying bizarre behavior as  a result of the drug, and then doctors will often try to ad another drug to cover up that effect.
This is reality.
Sorry, but  I have worked with children for many years as well, and I dont agree with sandman.
FYI-one of the classic symptoms of adhd is a child having no respect for authority. Its also a classic symptom of sin, but no doubt you dont believe in sin and consequences.
I will continue to warn parents, and you can continue to do what you will. THis discussion has gone as far as it can go.
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973741 tn?1342342773
I am under the assumption that most parents really would prefer NOT to use medication.  A few out there may be looking for a chemical babysitter or the ability to claim disability on their child-----------  but the vast majority of parents I come across in real life aren't thrilled with the idea of medicating their beloved child.  I know I wouldn't be.  

While I do agree that diagnosing of add/adhd was all the 'rage' a few years ago------ things in the mental health community have shifted slightly.  There is now a stigmatization to the diagnosis in which parents are made to feel like maybe it doesn't even exist and they are wrong for seeking full treatment that may or may not require medication.  

Brain chemistry is something important to understand. The reason why, for example, someone has depression of a clinical nature is because their brain chemistry is out of whack.  This is studied, documented . . . there are even pictures of what a brain of someone depressed looks like verses someone who is not.  What medication does in that instance is to right the chemistry.  It does alter the brain but back to the way it should be.  For years there was a stigma to taking antidepressants and it really hindered the treatment of those clinically depressed.  Not all required medication but to get better, many certainly did.  I'm thankful that while it still exists, the stigma is lessening in that regard so that people can get the help they need without public scrutiny.  

All medication have risks and I do not think all kids who are medicated should be.  I don't think it is the first line of handling children and would try other things first.  

Bringing to the attention classic symptoms of a known disorder is not jumping to something.  It means that you should look into that to rule it out or work on it if that is the problem.  Not sure why you would be opposed to that.  And Sandman has worked with kids for a few decades.  He has wonderful insight for families and actually is one of the good guys here for being pro kid and wanting to help them.  

There are those here that are vehemently against medication and I respect them and understand where they are coming from (and remember, I am not PRO medication and see it as a painful choice families have to make at times).  I like how they say what they have to say and also offer something positive that a family CAN do.  
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Avatar universal
I guess we will have to agree to disagree here. I was not being insensitive to a family. I dont think labeling and drugging her kid is the answer in this situation.
People are failing to see the obvious here. The kid is hurting and angry. If she takes him to a (therapist) or whatever, they will say (yes, he has adhd, let the experiments begin) He is a boy with a mom who  loves him and is trying to do the right thing, but she has to work and is exhausted. The family sounds like a fine mix of issues, so the mom is basically alone in this. The kid is really hurting and angry that his father has abandoned him. He is going to act out. Its not a disease, it is the result of his abandonment and he is being rebellious because of it. Sandman says in the very first post he made that the kid had classic adhd symtpoms. Sandman is not a doctor and sandman in my opinon has made a dangerous assumption. Many parents are so desperate for their dysfunctional family life to have some peace, that they are willing to try anything including labeling and drugging their kid, and when they are truly trying their best and not in a hurry to do this, the schools and therapists are in a hurry to convince them this is the answer.  Also, many people on here will see someone as yellow stars next to their name and some people are not mature enough to realize that we all have yellow stars whenever we answer lots of questions, but it does not mean we know the answers we are giving.
I hate, HATE these mind altering drugs. They are used FAR too often. If sandman was a doctor, look how quickly he said "classic symptoms of adhd". Chest pain is a classic symptom of heart attack but it does not mean you had one. You have to look at the whole picture.
I am not opposed to people giving their kids meds that NEED them, which should be very few children.
I do want people to know if they are going to give them meds, they need to know they have very real risks.




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973741 tn?1342342773
Oh, and my disclaimer-----------  all posts made by myself are only my opinion and nothing but my opinion.  
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973741 tn?1342342773
I am not offended by your advice.  But I do think it is insensitive to a family that is trying to understand their child.  Reference to jumping on an add/adhd bandwagon probably came across differently than you intended.  

I do not have a child with add/adhd but feel bad for those who read a post like this one.  

If a child is indeed diagnosed with add/adhd, there is a variety of things that can and should be done to help them.  Sometimes medication is necessary.  

I also don't have an agenda.

So, back to the poster.  My sincere hope is that no matter what means it takes, that you are able help your son.  Try the 'heavy work' activities I talked about as I've seen a true calming effect in my own child with them.  good luck
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Avatar universal
I agree helping is what we want. Degrees do not make the person all knowing or honest. I realize you are offended by my advice here, and my intent is not to offend those of  you who feel you have the answers. My intent is to let parents know there are people being hurt by these powerful brain altering drugs, and they need to at least hear the other side to these things bing popped like candy.
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973741 tn?1342342773
Yes, all offer their advice based on experience or in my case as well as educational and professional background (if they have it).  It is true that these medications alter chemicals in the brain------- um, that is the point of them.  That is why they work.

I don't advocate that people go straight to medication but am not a fan of scaring people who find that their child requires it.  That's all.  

All should definitely do their own homework and research all options.

For the original poster, a full and comprehensive evaluation is your first step.  If you go through your local public school system, I would recommend asking for the full gamut of testing--------  all areas.  Speech, occupational therapist, and psychological testing.  In many states, you can only evaluate once every three years-----------  so you would want to cover all of your basis.  

If you go private in terms of seeking evaluations and treatment, I'd be sure to choose a psychologist (PhD only) who specializes in children or a psychiatrist that specializes in children.  

Bottom line is helping our kids.

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Avatar universal
Please be advised that the medications may help your son, and also they may help him temporarily, but you need to understand the drugs do alter the chemistry in the brain and sometimes there are terrible results, and sometimes the changes are permanent. There are a lot unknowns when it comes to the brain, not to mention a developing brain. All of us here can offer  you our advice, but that is really all it is. We each have had our own experiences that play a roll in the advice we give. If you are considering any meds, research them yourself, and I dont mean by reading the paper the doctor gives you. Research them online, and dont forget to research long term use, withdrawal, and also look and listend to the groups that are warning you against them. If after all that you are convinced its the best thing, then you have done your best. :)
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