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Child Behavior (Expert Forum)
Toxic grandparent
Answered by
Kevin Kennedy, Ph.D. - Child and Adolescent Psychotherapy, Family Therapy, Crisis Intervention
Harvard Vanguard Medical Associates
This forum is for questions and support regarding child behavior issues such: Child Discipline (behavior management), Normal Child Development, Parent-Child Communications, Social Development
Toxic grandparent
by LCP, Dec 29, 2003 12:00AM
I am writing regarding a current situation with my 8 year old daughter and her paternal grandmother.
Here is the history:
I had my daughter out of wedlock and never married her father. We separated when she was 18 months old.
After enduring false allegations, custody battles, and visitation rights (by the child’s father and his family), I ended up with custody of my daughter.
I was taken to court in the summer of 1999 for visitation rights by my child’s paternal grandmother.
I was convinced at the time by my lawyer that it would be in my best interest to come to an agreement regarding the visitation vs. having the case decided by a judge. Reluctantly, I entered in to an agreement that allowed what I would consider minimal visitation. This visitation included one day a month, 5 days in the summer, and time with the child on the grandmother’s birthday. The monthly visits were to be scheduled in conjunction with the father’s weekend visitation. I was aware that she was visiting with the child during her father’s visits as well (although the grandmother claimed otherwise).
Not long after the agreement became effective, I was contacted by my child’s paternal grandmother and aunt alleging that there was improper care and concern regarding the child’s visits with her father.
Not knowing if these allegations were true (as I had been the victim of extremely false allegations by the same people) I decided to not take a chance and I had my daughter removed from his care during a court ordered Christmas visit in 1999.
The visitation between my child and her father was suspended and remained suspended for 14 months until he petitioned the court. Needless to say, her father vehemently denied the allegations and as a result ended all contact with his mother. During the 14-month period (in April of 2000) I moved to Virginia from North Carolina.
I made arrangements with my child’s father for supervised (by me) visitation so as not to be in contempt of the suspended visitation order. My intention was not to interfere or damage any relationship between my daughter and her father, so I did everything I could to facilitate their visiting.
Once I moved to Virginia (320 miles away from my former home) the visitation agreement I had with the grandmother obviously could not continue as had previously considering the distance.
Instead, the visiting changed to every three to four months for a weekend, which came out to be the same amount of time anyways. This pattern has continued to current along with summer visits. This past summer, I extended the visit and allowed my daughter to spend 12 days so that she could attend a week long all day horse camp.
I have always had concerns about the grandmother’s mental stability, as I know that she has been diagnosed with bi-polar disorder and borderline personality disorder. I have been under the impression that she is in therapy and taking medication and trying to “get healthy”. She is currently on disability for her mental illnesses.
I have never been concerned about her physically abusing or intentionally harming my daughter. If anything, her behavior is to the opposite, i.e., constantly buying and mailing her gifts (she receives 2-4 packages a week), having long phone conversations with her, etc.
I have spoke to her (the grandmother) about the over indulgence of gifts on many occasions. I feel that this has a negative effect on my daughter. My daughter has no appreciation for gifts and shows very little excitement or enthusiasm when she receives gifts, new toys/clothing, etc. from anyone. It is very disappointing to me to see her lack of appreciation, as I was not raised that way.
Regardless of what I say to the grandmother regarding the gifts, she continues to inundate my daughter with these material things. My daughter actually doesn’t have much interest in the things that she sends…she doesn’t play with the toys or wear the clothes. However, my daughter is very close to her grandmother and loves her dearly. And why wouldn’t she? The grandmother will buy her whatever she wants and doesn’t set boundaries and rules when they visit together. It is almost as if my daughter is the adult and she is the child. I have heard my daughter speak to her harshly during phone conversations and have had to call her out on it because her grandmother doesn’t. I have zero tolerance for disrespecting anyone, whether adult or another child.
My daughter is very well behaved at home and I have virtually no problems with her. She is great kid,
but when she returns from visiting with her grandmother, it takes a few days to get her back in the routine of the rules and expectations in her home environment.
I have also suspected some parental undermining by the grandmother. Which includes allowing my daughter to do things that she would not be allowed to do at home (which the grandmother is clearly aware of).
Until now, these have been my primary concerns. My fear has always been that they would continue to worsen, as my daughter gets older.
I have spent a tremendous amount of time thinking about it and always come up with no solution, as I don’t want to harm my daughter in anyway. I also fear the retaliation by the grandmother if I tried to interfere. You can’t put anything past her as she is a master manipulator and has an unbelievable way of playing the victim in order to get what she wants.
Obviously, I have discussed my concerns with the grandmother but there is never any change in the behavior.
Last week, I contacted my daughter’s aunt (paternal grandmother’s daughter) to arrange a short visit to exchange gifts while visiting my in-laws in NC for X-Mas.
The aunt shared with me that she was concerned about the relationship between my daughter & her mother. She said that her mother was not getting any better with her emotional/mental state. She recounted situations and conversations with her mother to support this.
She told of a conversation in which her mother suggested to her that they should cultivate a relationship between her youngest son and my daughter (they are about 16 months apart in age).
The aunt also shared several incidents of false accusations made by her mother involving the Department of Social Services as well as medical doctors treating her oldest son. By doing so jeopardizing medical treatment that her son was receiving in Chapel Hill, NC.
Recently, her oldest son “confided” in the grandmother that he was upset w/his mother for restricting him (as a form of discipline), and the grandmother told her son that he “could come and live w/her and that she would let him do whatever he wanted to”.
Also to note,
The aunt says that grandmother interfered w/the disciplining of her children on a constant basis. She was completely immersed in their lives.
Acts like a child very often (behavior as well as dressing like a child).
The grandmother sent my daughter to the aunt’s home for a sleepover during the past summer’s visit with no underwear on.
The grandmother is constantly manipulating everyone around her, including her therapist and domestic partner (recently divorced husband #8)
Constantly lying about everyone and everything, making up situations and conversations with people that have never even occurred.
Dresses my daughter inappropriately during the summer visits i.e. short shorts and other provocative clothing.
The aunt said that she has had to severely limit the contact with her children and her mother because of such horrific negative effects on her two boys. The aunt has been told by both a psychiatrist and psychotherapist that she should eliminate all contact between the grandmother and her sons because she (the grandmother) is so toxic. Both of the aunt’s boys have Asperger Syndrome and are under the constant care/supervision of a psychiatrist and psychotherapist. She indicated that since limiting the contact four months ago that she as well as the medical care providers have seen a dramatic and positive change in the boys social development and behavior.
Knowing all of this, I am at a loss as to what to do now. I am extremely concerned about the psychological effects that this woman could have on my daughter. Because of their closeness, there is no doubt that the opportunity is there.
I have considered limiting the contact, but fear that would lead the grandmother to trying to pit my daughter against me by saying things such as “Your Mommy won’t let me spend the weekend with you” etc. and that is unacceptable.
If I eliminate the contact, I am concerned about the effects of that for my daughter and also concerned about the retaliation.
There is no doubt that the grandmother will come after me a vengeance.
However, I am prepared to do whatever is in the best interest of my child…regardless of the consequence.
Any advice or guidance you could give would be most appreciated.
Thank you.
Here is the history:
I had my daughter out of wedlock and never married her father. We separated when she was 18 months old.
After enduring false allegations, custody battles, and visitation rights (by the child’s father and his family), I ended up with custody of my daughter.
I was taken to court in the summer of 1999 for visitation rights by my child’s paternal grandmother.
I was convinced at the time by my lawyer that it would be in my best interest to come to an agreement regarding the visitation vs. having the case decided by a judge. Reluctantly, I entered in to an agreement that allowed what I would consider minimal visitation. This visitation included one day a month, 5 days in the summer, and time with the child on the grandmother’s birthday. The monthly visits were to be scheduled in conjunction with the father’s weekend visitation. I was aware that she was visiting with the child during her father’s visits as well (although the grandmother claimed otherwise).
Not long after the agreement became effective, I was contacted by my child’s paternal grandmother and aunt alleging that there was improper care and concern regarding the child’s visits with her father.
Not knowing if these allegations were true (as I had been the victim of extremely false allegations by the same people) I decided to not take a chance and I had my daughter removed from his care during a court ordered Christmas visit in 1999.
The visitation between my child and her father was suspended and remained suspended for 14 months until he petitioned the court. Needless to say, her father vehemently denied the allegations and as a result ended all contact with his mother. During the 14-month period (in April of 2000) I moved to Virginia from North Carolina.
I made arrangements with my child’s father for supervised (by me) visitation so as not to be in contempt of the suspended visitation order. My intention was not to interfere or damage any relationship between my daughter and her father, so I did everything I could to facilitate their visiting.
Once I moved to Virginia (320 miles away from my former home) the visitation agreement I had with the grandmother obviously could not continue as had previously considering the distance.
Instead, the visiting changed to every three to four months for a weekend, which came out to be the same amount of time anyways. This pattern has continued to current along with summer visits. This past summer, I extended the visit and allowed my daughter to spend 12 days so that she could attend a week long all day horse camp.
I have always had concerns about the grandmother’s mental stability, as I know that she has been diagnosed with bi-polar disorder and borderline personality disorder. I have been under the impression that she is in therapy and taking medication and trying to “get healthy”. She is currently on disability for her mental illnesses.
I have never been concerned about her physically abusing or intentionally harming my daughter. If anything, her behavior is to the opposite, i.e., constantly buying and mailing her gifts (she receives 2-4 packages a week), having long phone conversations with her, etc.
I have spoke to her (the grandmother) about the over indulgence of gifts on many occasions. I feel that this has a negative effect on my daughter. My daughter has no appreciation for gifts and shows very little excitement or enthusiasm when she receives gifts, new toys/clothing, etc. from anyone. It is very disappointing to me to see her lack of appreciation, as I was not raised that way.
Regardless of what I say to the grandmother regarding the gifts, she continues to inundate my daughter with these material things. My daughter actually doesn’t have much interest in the things that she sends…she doesn’t play with the toys or wear the clothes. However, my daughter is very close to her grandmother and loves her dearly. And why wouldn’t she? The grandmother will buy her whatever she wants and doesn’t set boundaries and rules when they visit together. It is almost as if my daughter is the adult and she is the child. I have heard my daughter speak to her harshly during phone conversations and have had to call her out on it because her grandmother doesn’t. I have zero tolerance for disrespecting anyone, whether adult or another child.
My daughter is very well behaved at home and I have virtually no problems with her. She is great kid,
but when she returns from visiting with her grandmother, it takes a few days to get her back in the routine of the rules and expectations in her home environment.
I have also suspected some parental undermining by the grandmother. Which includes allowing my daughter to do things that she would not be allowed to do at home (which the grandmother is clearly aware of).
Until now, these have been my primary concerns. My fear has always been that they would continue to worsen, as my daughter gets older.
I have spent a tremendous amount of time thinking about it and always come up with no solution, as I don’t want to harm my daughter in anyway. I also fear the retaliation by the grandmother if I tried to interfere. You can’t put anything past her as she is a master manipulator and has an unbelievable way of playing the victim in order to get what she wants.
Obviously, I have discussed my concerns with the grandmother but there is never any change in the behavior.
Last week, I contacted my daughter’s aunt (paternal grandmother’s daughter) to arrange a short visit to exchange gifts while visiting my in-laws in NC for X-Mas.
The aunt shared with me that she was concerned about the relationship between my daughter & her mother. She said that her mother was not getting any better with her emotional/mental state. She recounted situations and conversations with her mother to support this.
She told of a conversation in which her mother suggested to her that they should cultivate a relationship between her youngest son and my daughter (they are about 16 months apart in age).
The aunt also shared several incidents of false accusations made by her mother involving the Department of Social Services as well as medical doctors treating her oldest son. By doing so jeopardizing medical treatment that her son was receiving in Chapel Hill, NC.
Recently, her oldest son “confided” in the grandmother that he was upset w/his mother for restricting him (as a form of discipline), and the grandmother told her son that he “could come and live w/her and that she would let him do whatever he wanted to”.
Also to note,
The aunt says that grandmother interfered w/the disciplining of her children on a constant basis. She was completely immersed in their lives.
Acts like a child very often (behavior as well as dressing like a child).
The grandmother sent my daughter to the aunt’s home for a sleepover during the past summer’s visit with no underwear on.
The grandmother is constantly manipulating everyone around her, including her therapist and domestic partner (recently divorced husband #8)
Constantly lying about everyone and everything, making up situations and conversations with people that have never even occurred.
Dresses my daughter inappropriately during the summer visits i.e. short shorts and other provocative clothing.
The aunt said that she has had to severely limit the contact with her children and her mother because of such horrific negative effects on her two boys. The aunt has been told by both a psychiatrist and psychotherapist that she should eliminate all contact between the grandmother and her sons because she (the grandmother) is so toxic. Both of the aunt’s boys have Asperger Syndrome and are under the constant care/supervision of a psychiatrist and psychotherapist. She indicated that since limiting the contact four months ago that she as well as the medical care providers have seen a dramatic and positive change in the boys social development and behavior.
Knowing all of this, I am at a loss as to what to do now. I am extremely concerned about the psychological effects that this woman could have on my daughter. Because of their closeness, there is no doubt that the opportunity is there.
I have considered limiting the contact, but fear that would lead the grandmother to trying to pit my daughter against me by saying things such as “Your Mommy won’t let me spend the weekend with you” etc. and that is unacceptable.
If I eliminate the contact, I am concerned about the effects of that for my daughter and also concerned about the retaliation.
There is no doubt that the grandmother will come after me a vengeance.
However, I am prepared to do whatever is in the best interest of my child…regardless of the consequence.
Any advice or guidance you could give would be most appreciated.
Thank you.
Doctor's Answer
by Kevin Kennedy, Ph.D., Dec 30, 2003 12:00AM
, Dec 30, 2003 12:00AM
In most jurisdictions, grandparents have no guaranteed rights to see their grandchildren. I imagine that you would have little difficulty restricting the contact, or even eliminating it, should you desire to approach the court with such an objective. Is it worth alienating the grandmother in the process? It is worth such a risk if the contact, in your judgement, is not at all in your daughter's best interest.
From your description, your daughter is doing well on a day-to-day basis. This likely immunizes her, to some extent, from any prolonged effect of contact with her grandmother. If the adverse impact of the contact were limited only to overly indulgent behavior on the pasrt of the grandmother, it would probably be best to let it alone (since it is not very frequent). However, if the contact includes explicitly illicit or obviously damaging behavior, the picture changes and invites some restriction, because you have the obligation to protect your daughter.
One course you could follow, if you decide that the status quo poses an unacceptable risk, is to require the grandmother to submit to a psychological evaluation. Such an evaluation would be ordered by the court. Another course is to ask the court to appoint a guardian ad litem for the express purpose of making a determination about the suitability of the contact between your daughter and her grandmother. Such a guardian ad litem might require the grandmother to have a psychological evaluation, though the guardian ad litem might make a determination in some other way.
All things considered, I'd advise against maintaining the status quo - you already have sufficient information (via your own observations and those of the extended family) to warrant grave concern. Cutting off the contact entirely, in a unilateral way, might not be the better of the remaining options, due to the unforeseen repercussions. The best option might be to voice your concern directly to the grandmother, tell her you are leaving the door open to further contact of some sort, and that the specific plan will rest on the results a guardian ad litem might present to the court. You'd have to confer with an attorney who specializes in family law, but it would probably be best to have the jurisdiction in the matter transferred to your area in Virginia from the area in North Carolina where the matter was originally handled.
From your description, your daughter is doing well on a day-to-day basis. This likely immunizes her, to some extent, from any prolonged effect of contact with her grandmother. If the adverse impact of the contact were limited only to overly indulgent behavior on the pasrt of the grandmother, it would probably be best to let it alone (since it is not very frequent). However, if the contact includes explicitly illicit or obviously damaging behavior, the picture changes and invites some restriction, because you have the obligation to protect your daughter.
One course you could follow, if you decide that the status quo poses an unacceptable risk, is to require the grandmother to submit to a psychological evaluation. Such an evaluation would be ordered by the court. Another course is to ask the court to appoint a guardian ad litem for the express purpose of making a determination about the suitability of the contact between your daughter and her grandmother. Such a guardian ad litem might require the grandmother to have a psychological evaluation, though the guardian ad litem might make a determination in some other way.
All things considered, I'd advise against maintaining the status quo - you already have sufficient information (via your own observations and those of the extended family) to warrant grave concern. Cutting off the contact entirely, in a unilateral way, might not be the better of the remaining options, due to the unforeseen repercussions. The best option might be to voice your concern directly to the grandmother, tell her you are leaving the door open to further contact of some sort, and that the specific plan will rest on the results a guardian ad litem might present to the court. You'd have to confer with an attorney who specializes in family law, but it would probably be best to have the jurisdiction in the matter transferred to your area in Virginia from the area in North Carolina where the matter was originally handled.
GOOD LUCK